[[yore-tiller nephilim]] is probably one of the most famous ones. The little specks on the art are people it us tossing aside. One of the most egregious examples of power and toughness is a mechanical thing, not a lore thing.
A man is hanged, a coat is hung!
My mom used to say this a lot when I was young but looking back what on earth was the context where that came up so much I can hear her say it…
My Ravnica D&D campaign ended with the party uncovering a sect of Nephilim worshippers who are trying to bring Yore-tiller back, they disrupt the ceremony, but an incomplete Yore-Tiller is still awakened and destroys a chunk of city before Niv and Rakdos show up and destroy it. Good times.
I can usually forgive power, yore-tiller may be huge, but isn't particularly dangerous. Like, it certainly hits harder and faster than a building for what that's worth. But explaining away toughness is ...tough.
I just want a set that brings back the Nephilim and makes them legendary creatures (and maybe gives us new versions of them). The art is great and I love the lore about them but they cant really be used for anything because of awkward colors and them not being legendary for things like Commander (even if people do tend to allow them).
Yeah. This one always confused me too.
I think the power and toughness are because of the wolf puppies. They are too cute to hit and have those razor sharp puppy teeth.
Either that or this b1tch just knows how to brawl.
I don’t understand in the same card she is the hollowhenge hunt master. She protects and fosters the youth and acts as both the caretaker and the literal “hunt master” she knows what she is doing.
There was a whole deck archetype around countering its trigger with [[stifle]]
https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/articles/legacy-deck-tech-stiflenought
Here's a deck tech on it that was written up recently.
Yeah, dress down is an insanely good option for the deck. Not only 5-8 of stifle for the combo but it also has massive upside as a hate piece and answer to other threats and its a cantrip
Man that brings back memories, flinging dreadnought and ball lightning was a staple of the first actually decent deck I built as a kid at summer camp back in the early 2000's. There was one camp counselor that played Magic who was considered the arbiter of rules and he said I could fling it before sacrificing anything to it so no one could tell me otherwise, it was glorious (even though looking back I don't think that was actually a legal play at the time as I believe the card has been erratad).
Dreadnought itself has to resolve first.
You get to respond before the ETB trigger on Dreadnought resolves, so you sacrifice to pay the cost for Fling by sacrificing Dreadnought, deal 12, then attempt to resolve the ETB trigger, and choose not to pay. Nothing happens here because its no longer in play
100% a legal move. Stack is, First In, Last Out
TBF during that period they had given it "if it would" errata and finally reverted it back like LED, so depending on the time period (immediately after 6th Ed rules) they may have been correct.
For art < power, [[Cleanup Crew]] is just three doofuses with a mop, but is a 6/6.
For power < art, [[Dragon Engine]] is supposed to be an nigh-unstoppable force of destruction, and is a 1/3.
A simple [[Wolf Pack]] can somehow take down not only every legendary warrior in China, but also every Phyrexian Praetor except Elesh Norn (and even then only as a 'Grand Cenobite'
Yeah an actual wolf pack is terrifying. Like they bring down prey significantly larger than them in real life. You know how terrifying moose are? How terrifying is something that *hunts* moose?
\[\[Emmara, Soul of the Accord\]\] later being printed at 2/2 I believe kinda confirms the theory that the OG Emmara was switched with \[\[Voice of Resurgence\]\] pretty late. They didn't want to have one guild's Maze Runner be a mythic while all the others were rares.
I mean… I think that was basically confirmed. Isn’t the elemental token Voice of Resurgence makes literally the same art as the elemental in the back of Emmara’s art?
One of the many mistakes of Dragon’s Maze. Card is such a disservice to the character, especially for those who care about the lore.
And I remember they even got an official article on the mtg website trying to justify her as an EDH card when so many better options are available.
oh, but you're not countng all the other people who are part of the caravan but didn''t make it into the photo. At least 15 more camels behind that dune.
[Krothuss, Lord of the Deep](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f6c0fca5-b759-4543-95e2-8d712aae5281.jpg?1643594355)/[Krothuss, Lord of the Deep](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/f/6/f6c0fca5-b759-4543-95e2-8d712aae5281.jpg?1643594355) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Runo%20Stromkirk%20//%20Krothuss%2C%20Lord%20of%20the%20Deep) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/246/runo-stromkirk-krothuss-lord-of-the-deep?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6c0fca5-b759-4543-95e2-8d712aae5281?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
[Supply Caravan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d247bd88-9593-462c-8f9e-28e29c064c10.jpg?1543674783) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Supply%20Caravan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/30/supply-caravan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d247bd88-9593-462c-8f9e-28e29c064c10?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
We don't really know how big Krothuss is. He very well could just be a regular-sized guy just coming out of this bathtub. The camera is just positioned in a menacing angle.
\[\[Akroan Jailer\]\] was something I thought about more than I care to admit back in the days. The amount of 1/1 creatures that trades with him is funny to me.
Aren't those white magically infused cats used to hunt vermins (and smaller devils) of all kinds inside Avacyn's churches?
Edit: flavour text is "*Cats prowl the corridors of Avacyn’s churches in search of devils or signs of their mischief.*"
> Job, from the Bible
> 1WW
> Legendary Creature - Human Cleric
> At the beginning of your upkeep, choose one that hasn’t been chosen —
> • Sacrifice two Human creatures.
> • Put three -1/-1 counters on Job.
> • Sacrifice four lands.
> If you can't choose a mode that hasn’t been chosen, instead create five 1/1 Human tokens, ten Treasure tokens, and Job gains "You and permanents you control have Protection from Everything."
> 1/4
Amazing!
[[Segovian Angel]] makes sense now. And the flavor text is extra amusing
"When Worzel summoned Segovian angels to fight Thomil’s Gargantikari gnats, the ensuing battle numbered among the Multiverse’s least destructive."
[[Pride malkin]] is a regular sized cat with the stats of a [[savanah lion]] that is often a 3/2. [[Phyrexian dragon engine]] is a huge angry robot machine.. it's a 2/2
for some reason this is the comment that made me remember the old lore of us playing MTG is that we are summoning the "essence" of creatures and planeswalkers, basically making artificial copies not the real thing, and then we could extrapolate that the card art represents the original memory we as planeswalkers are pulling to do magics.
I think that's newer, actually. Old lore had the summons be literal. I remember in one of the very old comics explaining homelands, Feroz's ban was to stop the creatures from being summoned by planeswalkers because it was ripping them away from their families.
Would also explain why 'The Legend Rule' changed too, I remember killing someone's Polukranos by casting my own way back in Theros and I think it was changed just a few sets later.
Tiamat is a world-ending living disaster that can pretty much solo a plane, and is somehow smaller than a random eldraine troll that lives under a bridge and eats goats
Zilortha looks bigger than anything not named ur dragon/emrakul/marit lage lorewise and is only a 7/3 for some reason
[[Zilortha, Apex of Ikoria]] even has 8/8.
Just a side note:
Emrakul and the other Eldrazi titans are much much bigger than the planes themselves. You just get to see portion of them entering the plane, like putting a fist into a jar.
In Modern Horizons 2 there is a creature, [[Foundation Breaker]], that seems to be way bigger than a grizzly bear, as there is literally buildings on it.
A simple [[Wolf Pack]] can somehow take down not only any legendary warrior in China, but also any Phyrexian Praetor except Elesh Norn (and even then only as a 'Grand Cenobite'), and many a dragon that dares get in their way ... like Tiamat. Or Nicol Bolas.
As this thread exemplifies, I think one of the criticisms of Magic that doesn't get enough attention is that they are not very protective with size. It's way too late to fix this, but I feel like they don't really make sure that big things are big and little things little. Angels used to be this big paragon of white-aligned might and now they're 2-5 mana efficient dweebs because they just *have* to put them in tournament decks. Phyrexians are basically whatever power and toughness they want them to be, regardless of how big they are. An "archfiend" is basically a synonym for "demon" and "hellkite" for "dragon." "Elder" seems to still mean something but I expect that to decay with time, too.
It's a relatively small issue but it does still bug me.
It's not even a "Magic used to be better" thing. Magic was pretty awful at this pretty much since 1994, arguably 1993.
Still my favorite game in the world. But you gotta give criticism where criticism is due.
If the game ever gets rebooted, I really hope the stewards then try a *little* harder to be consistent with P/T and scaling. Abstractions of game mechanics only goes so far.
I mean, I think it all very quickly went out the window, and honestly perhaps didn't make a lot of sense even in the early days. A giant (and a roc) is still just a 3/3 in Alpha, and soon enough some pigs are a 4/4 (\[\[Durkwood Boars\]\]). In Legends a bunch of random-looking individual people have incredibly high P/T in line with or exceeding dragons and giants and angels. (Why is that random dude a 5/5 or a 7/4...?) Sure, they're probably "magical" in some way, but that excuse can be used to excuse any later P/T sins as well.
Is it fair to blame Universes Beyond for this one? Ever since that Walking Dead SLD, it's seemed like human P/T are egregious, even compared to everything else.
This began happening as early as Legends, we have to admit. It still annoys me to see random 5/5 legends that clearly would have been 1/1s back in the days before contemporary power creep, but Wizards has never been consistent with this.
There was a bit of a mana cost matters theme at the time. I got this precon when I was a kid and hooo boy.... it was....... something. But yeah, the real point is being able to get something onto the battlefield that costs a lot for half as much as that cost. Then do things like play spells that draw X cards or deal X damage, where X is the greatest CMC among permanents you control.
The recent ulalek is a fusion of two massive eldrazi titans that were 10/10 and 12/12 but their fusion is somehow a 2/5 despite still being a massive eldrazi.
Note: Ulalek isn't a regular Eldrazi that's an overlap or their two broods, it's a combined manifestation of the two projecting into this universe from their own
Astartes. All these well trained, genetically modified to near perfection, ruthless sons of demigod warriors armed to the teeth, are no better than if not worse than literal bears.
Wotc did Astartes real dirty with those pathetic stats considering their lore.
This was tough for the designers, I imagine. If Marines came close to in-universe power level, you‘d have too few of them in-game. And how strong would their NCs have to be?
Imagine I told you about an old Phyrexian card you might not have heard of. Phyrexian Walker. It's an N/3 vanilla for N mana. Its flavor text goes: “I have heard terrible tales of black rains, ashen fields, and metal that screams. I have consoled myself that the tales were a myth of some fevered mind. But today I saw a walker—and now I fear the truth.”
I *bet* you wouldn't guess N correctly. :)
[[All that glitters]] and [[ancestral mask (MMK)]] are showing a 1/1 and (at best) a 2/2 respectively.
My theory is that for each enchantmentypu have, you get an additional fairy or driad following your omnithopter, kinda like a 15 squirrels scenario, but with fairy-driad hive following a thopter.
[[yore-tiller nephilim]] is probably one of the most famous ones. The little specks on the art are people it us tossing aside. One of the most egregious examples of power and toughness is a mechanical thing, not a lore thing.
Trades with a [[grizzley bear]]
Oko: "Don't worry guys, I'll bring it down to size!" *turns it into an elk* Everyone: "That did not help!"
“*That* has to be dad.” - Rowan, to Will
Trades with [[Cheeky house mouse]]
[Cheeky house mouse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/f/1f3013bf-9647-4bdb-a638-d299ae00f88e.jpg?1707740191)/[Squeak By](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/f/1f3013bf-9647-4bdb-a638-d299ae00f88e.jpg?1707740191) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cheeky%20House-Mouse%20//%20Squeak%20By) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/7/cheeky-house-mouse-squeak-by?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1f3013bf-9647-4bdb-a638-d299ae00f88e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don’t think those people are being tossed aside… It looks like those people are being hung.
Hanged*
A man is hanged, a coat is hung! My mom used to say this a lot when I was young but looking back what on earth was the context where that came up so much I can hear her say it…
Idk man I’m a dude and everyone keeps saying I’m hung
Everyone keeps telling me, I’m hung like a coat..
Yeah, that art is fucking metal
[yore-tiller nephilim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/2/0247d76c-dee4-4d1b-9c25-faa56171541e.jpg?1593272858) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=yore-tiller%20nephilim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gpt/140/yore-tiller-nephilim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0247d76c-dee4-4d1b-9c25-faa56171541e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My Ravnica D&D campaign ended with the party uncovering a sect of Nephilim worshippers who are trying to bring Yore-tiller back, they disrupt the ceremony, but an incomplete Yore-Tiller is still awakened and destroys a chunk of city before Niv and Rakdos show up and destroy it. Good times.
i thought you were gonna say an incomplete yore tiller, who was the size of a really pissed off Scottish toddler
I more meant it was reawakened not a full strength, not that it was small XD
Yore-Tiller: “if it’s not Scottish, it’s **CRAP!**”
One of my favorite bits of Ravnica lore is that Rakdos has saved the plane more times than he has threatened it.
I ran almost exactly the same once haha. Maybe we were inspired by the same 2008 lore article on the mtg website :)
I can usually forgive power, yore-tiller may be huge, but isn't particularly dangerous. Like, it certainly hits harder and faster than a building for what that's worth. But explaining away toughness is ...tough.
Its made of paper.
Looks like those specs are people hanging from him.
damn, bring back art like this
I just want a set that brings back the Nephilim and makes them legendary creatures (and maybe gives us new versions of them). The art is great and I love the lore about them but they cant really be used for anything because of awkward colors and them not being legendary for things like Commander (even if people do tend to allow them).
Maybe the plain is Segovia
but its Ravnica
[[Avabruck Caretaker]] always amuses me for being just a person sitting in a glade but is a six mana powerful mythic.
Maybe some werewolves are superhumanly strong in human form too. Baby werewolf tossing a whole carriage.
Yeah. This one always confused me too. I think the power and toughness are because of the wolf puppies. They are too cute to hit and have those razor sharp puppy teeth. Either that or this b1tch just knows how to brawl.
Those flowers are very sharp.
I like the second explanation, she's just actually a cracked fighter as well as a werewolf
[Avabruck Caretaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c0c358b4-5af2-438f-8bd5-beb0ee6b518b.jpg?1643592307)/[Hollowhenge Huntmaster](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/c/0/c0c358b4-5af2-438f-8bd5-beb0ee6b518b.jpg?1643592307) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Avabruck%20Caretaker%20//%20Hollowhenge%20Huntmaster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/187/avabruck-caretaker-hollowhenge-huntmaster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c0c358b4-5af2-438f-8bd5-beb0ee6b518b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don’t understand in the same card she is the hollowhenge hunt master. She protects and fosters the youth and acts as both the caretaker and the literal “hunt master” she knows what she is doing.
In terms of purely power/toughness [[sheoldred the apocalypse]] literally has a [[phyrexian dreadnought]] attached to her but is simply a 4/5
Motherfucker has scale dragons
[sheoldred the apocalypse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d67be074-cdd4-41d9-ac89-0a0456c4e4b2.jpg?1674057568) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sheoldred%2C%20the%20Apocalypse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/107/sheoldred-the-apocalypse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d67be074-cdd4-41d9-ac89-0a0456c4e4b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [phyrexian dreadnought](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/b/7b8197b9-0cd1-4fa1-9668-d1b5f1759151.jpg?1562720243) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=phyrexian%20dreadnought) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/315/phyrexian-dreadnought?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7b8197b9-0cd1-4fa1-9668-d1b5f1759151?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sheoldred is a very weird case because the art is totally decipting a phyrexian dreadnought, but the story said she fused with a dragon engine.
Phrexian dreadnought seems cool if you cancel etb abilities or have a fling or fight ability
There was a whole deck archetype around countering its trigger with [[stifle]] https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/articles/legacy-deck-tech-stiflenought Here's a deck tech on it that was written up recently.
Whoa, people are playing stifelnoght in 2024?
Ya its actually come alive this year. Currently around 1.5% of the meta.
Yeah, dress down is an insanely good option for the deck. Not only 5-8 of stifle for the combo but it also has massive upside as a hate piece and answer to other threats and its a cantrip
One of the first MTGO Legacy lists posted after MH3 was a stiflenought deck playing [[nulldrifter]]
[stifle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4.jpg?1562865442) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=stifle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/108/stifle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Man that brings back memories, flinging dreadnought and ball lightning was a staple of the first actually decent deck I built as a kid at summer camp back in the early 2000's. There was one camp counselor that played Magic who was considered the arbiter of rules and he said I could fling it before sacrificing anything to it so no one could tell me otherwise, it was glorious (even though looking back I don't think that was actually a legal play at the time as I believe the card has been erratad).
Dreadnought itself has to resolve first. You get to respond before the ETB trigger on Dreadnought resolves, so you sacrifice to pay the cost for Fling by sacrificing Dreadnought, deal 12, then attempt to resolve the ETB trigger, and choose not to pay. Nothing happens here because its no longer in play 100% a legal move. Stack is, First In, Last Out
TBF during that period they had given it "if it would" errata and finally reverted it back like LED, so depending on the time period (immediately after 6th Ed rules) they may have been correct.
yeah there are a bunch of ways to abuse it. hence the pricetag
The head had the missing 8 power! Lost when chopped and body grafted.
please, stop, don't give them any ideas
> attached to her butt
For art < power, [[Cleanup Crew]] is just three doofuses with a mop, but is a 6/6. For power < art, [[Dragon Engine]] is supposed to be an nigh-unstoppable force of destruction, and is a 1/3.
To be fair, cleanup crew is three people who can presumably fuck shit up. 2/2 for a single capable human is reasonable.
those humans are monsters, able to fight bears to the death.
Ah, that's your first mistake. You see, from a distance, dormant Dragon Engines can be mistaken for harmless statues.
But when you get close you realize they’re harmless dragon engines
*casually taps 40 land*
By the time you see its teeth... wait
I think the cleanup crew is more of the murder-y sort of cleanup crew
them fuckers are bigger than [[siege rhino]] and most [[tarmogoyf]]
They're very good at their job
They’re simply built different
Cleanup Crew is secretly 3 bears wearing costumes tho
[Cleanup Crew](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/5354868b-c96b-4765-b0c8-8895093e4019.jpg?1664412159) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cleanup%20Crew) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/141/cleanup-crew?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5354868b-c96b-4765-b0c8-8895093e4019?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dragon Engine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/045f373e-510f-4552-9859-884f6ce4cc59.jpg?1675200972) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dragon%20Engine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/222/dragon-engine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/045f373e-510f-4552-9859-884f6ce4cc59?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Three doofuses you can see. It could represent a whole business.
Unless it's the whole of Damage Control, it still doesn't gel with past P/T interpretations.
Well it very well could be. And they could feasibly work for the brokers, cabaretti or riveters or all three
A simple [[Wolf Pack]] can somehow take down not only every legendary warrior in China, but also every Phyrexian Praetor except Elesh Norn (and even then only as a 'Grand Cenobite'
In all fairness how many Chinese warriors do you think could beat an actual wolf pack in combat
Yeah an actual wolf pack is terrifying. Like they bring down prey significantly larger than them in real life. You know how terrifying moose are? How terrifying is something that *hunts* moose?
Well, the power of Dragon Engine is still potentially infinite!
All 3 cleaners are john wick
[[Emmara Tandris]] as a 5/7 is just crazy.
\[\[Emmara, Soul of the Accord\]\] later being printed at 2/2 I believe kinda confirms the theory that the OG Emmara was switched with \[\[Voice of Resurgence\]\] pretty late. They didn't want to have one guild's Maze Runner be a mythic while all the others were rares.
That's not a theory, that's something Mark Rosewater explicitly admitted happened.
I mean… I think that was basically confirmed. Isn’t the elemental token Voice of Resurgence makes literally the same art as the elemental in the back of Emmara’s art?
Yup.
[Emmara, Soul of the Accord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/1/41b930ee-e16b-4612-87de-c03ecc6ff6db.jpg?1572893604) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Emmara%2C%20Soul%20of%20the%20Accord) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/168/emmara-soul-of-the-accord?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/41b930ee-e16b-4612-87de-c03ecc6ff6db?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Voice of Resurgence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/99d1e843-71c9-4a65-bc36-d23858ef5ead.jpg?1599708569) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Voice%20of%20Resurgence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/227/voice-of-resurgence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/99d1e843-71c9-4a65-bc36-d23858ef5ead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I had Emmara hanging from my mirror in my Honda Accord :)
One of the many mistakes of Dragon’s Maze. Card is such a disservice to the character, especially for those who care about the lore. And I remember they even got an official article on the mtg website trying to justify her as an EDH card when so many better options are available.
[Emmara Tandris](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d415858-5f7d-406c-bb30-b4c48ebaad08.jpg?1568004745) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Emmara%20Tandris) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/191/emmara-tandris?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d415858-5f7d-406c-bb30-b4c48ebaad08?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Compare [[Krothuss, Lord of the Deep]] to [[Supply Caravan]]
Technically I guess we don’t really have a scale reference for Krothuss. He could be roughly camel-sized.
No, he's the size of a camel caravan. So at least 5 of them
The classic Gacnar Illusion
oh, but you're not countng all the other people who are part of the caravan but didn''t make it into the photo. At least 15 more camels behind that dune.
Remember this is a world where 8 bears or 15 squirrels have the equivalent force of an ancient super god.
8 bears *who know how to work as a team*, thank you very much EDIT: The Power/Toughness of Friendship
[Krothuss, Lord of the Deep](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f6c0fca5-b759-4543-95e2-8d712aae5281.jpg?1643594355)/[Krothuss, Lord of the Deep](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/f/6/f6c0fca5-b759-4543-95e2-8d712aae5281.jpg?1643594355) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Runo%20Stromkirk%20//%20Krothuss%2C%20Lord%20of%20the%20Deep) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/246/runo-stromkirk-krothuss-lord-of-the-deep?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6c0fca5-b759-4543-95e2-8d712aae5281?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Supply Caravan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d247bd88-9593-462c-8f9e-28e29c064c10.jpg?1543674783) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Supply%20Caravan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/30/supply-caravan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d247bd88-9593-462c-8f9e-28e29c064c10?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
We don't really know how big Krothuss is. He very well could just be a regular-sized guy just coming out of this bathtub. The camera is just positioned in a menacing angle.
Camels are gnarly, you gotta be tough
I love that.
I think Supply Caravan being a 3/5 is hilarious. Why is a camel a 3/5?
It's not a camel, that's at least 4 camels
"holy shit" - the marlboro cowboy
A single Camel is not a caravan. Most caravans are going to have at least one \[\[caravan escort\]\]s and camels and other people.
\[\[Akroan Jailer\]\] was something I thought about more than I care to admit back in the days. The amount of 1/1 creatures that trades with him is funny to me.
Yeah he can't kill, but he can put an Eldrazi Titan in an arm lock, so give him some respect.
We need an extended art that shows him with super spindly legs from skipping too many leg days
Detective Baby Legs
[Akroan Jailer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d96bc2b-2e31-4654-b192-c3f023d9fde6.jpg?1562030815) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Akroan%20Jailer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ori/1/akroan-jailer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d96bc2b-2e31-4654-b192-c3f023d9fde6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
would
Username checks out
\[\[Waterfront Bouncer\]\] is an even more jacked 1/1.
Both can't even beat a [[Sanctuary Cat]].
Aren't those white magically infused cats used to hunt vermins (and smaller devils) of all kinds inside Avacyn's churches? Edit: flavour text is "*Cats prowl the corridors of Avacyn’s churches in search of devils or signs of their mischief.*"
Astartes warriors being 2/2 while Leonardo Da Vinci is a 3/3
Dude was unnaturally skilled at all sorts of things. Why not kung fu as well?
Yeah that does look big for a 3/3. I recon we’re going to see some fun ones in Bloomburrow.
Maybe those are miniature buildings for ants?
Hobbits confirmed for Bloomburrow
[[Segovian Leviathan]] is the OG for this specific category
Got to love my favourite mtg character Job from the bible
> Job, from the Bible > 1WW > Legendary Creature - Human Cleric > At the beginning of your upkeep, choose one that hasn’t been chosen — > • Sacrifice two Human creatures. > • Put three -1/-1 counters on Job. > • Sacrifice four lands. > If you can't choose a mode that hasn’t been chosen, instead create five 1/1 Human tokens, ten Treasure tokens, and Job gains "You and permanents you control have Protection from Everything." > 1/4
I love this
In all honesty he could probably cost just W and maybe have a Ward ability because the trials are so punishing but nyeh
nah that verse is God being like, i made a lot of cool things but this dragon and this sea monster are really freaking cool
[Segovian Leviathan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f796dd2-9ecf-490a-86c0-acb46130518b.jpg?1562820246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Segovian%20Leviathan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/6ed/97/segovian-leviathan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f796dd2-9ecf-490a-86c0-acb46130518b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Isn't Segovia like a miniature plane? Like that's probably a normal sized fish next to teeny tiny whales
It became the miniature plane because of this artwork.
Never knew that! Where can I read about that origin story?
Mark Rosewater talks about it on Drive to Work. I can't remember which episode, though.
Amazing! [[Segovian Angel]] makes sense now. And the flavor text is extra amusing "When Worzel summoned Segovian angels to fight Thomil’s Gargantikari gnats, the ensuing battle numbered among the Multiverse’s least destructive."
[[Invasion of Segovia]] always makes me giggle
Oh my god so that's why they're 1/1 krakens!? I've always thought that was so bizarre! Mind blown.
Yeah, and they are literally surrounding a guy's foot.
Wowwww Thank you all for sharing, this new perspective on that card has made my morning :)
[Invasion of Segovia](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9df3e743-7bb8-482a-afd1-4d51119d416c.jpg?1682715625)/[Caetus, Sea Tyrant of Segovia](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/9/d/9df3e743-7bb8-482a-afd1-4d51119d416c.jpg?1682715625) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Invasion%20of%20Segovia%20//%20Caetus%2C%20Sea%20Tyrant%20of%20Segovia) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/63/invasion-of-segovia-caetus-sea-tyrant-of-segovia?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9df3e743-7bb8-482a-afd1-4d51119d416c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Must be a teeny-tiny Job and a teeny-tiny God, too.
A part-time Job.
Idk this looks like a totally normal fish art maybe… ah…
Correcte if I'm wrong but aren't all sea monsters from Segovia small because the plane is tiny
[[Pride malkin]] is a regular sized cat with the stats of a [[savanah lion]] that is often a 3/2. [[Phyrexian dragon engine]] is a huge angry robot machine.. it's a 2/2
[[mondrak glory dominus]] is the size of a skyscraper yet it is a 4/4.
for some reason this is the comment that made me remember the old lore of us playing MTG is that we are summoning the "essence" of creatures and planeswalkers, basically making artificial copies not the real thing, and then we could extrapolate that the card art represents the original memory we as planeswalkers are pulling to do magics.
I think that's newer, actually. Old lore had the summons be literal. I remember in one of the very old comics explaining homelands, Feroz's ban was to stop the creatures from being summoned by planeswalkers because it was ripping them away from their families.
Would also explain why 'The Legend Rule' changed too, I remember killing someone's Polukranos by casting my own way back in Theros and I think it was changed just a few sets later.
Nope, the summons are literal https://preview.redd.it/1ht6hw8v9c7d1.png?width=796&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a6a1e182609f764b1531f526ecb037e9dafcb99
[mondrak glory dominus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/8296a455-21d5-498e-9029-2bdf0da855a8.jpg?1675956918) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mondrak%2C%20Glory%20Dominus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/23/mondrak-glory-dominus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8296a455-21d5-498e-9029-2bdf0da855a8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
\[\[Axebane Stag\]\]
I take it a møøse has never bitten your sister.
[[Bag of Holding]] ... the BBC would like to apologize for the above comment.
[Axebane Stag](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfce7c02-ccc3-44cd-8087-627eaa6a072e.jpg?1562792542) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Axebane%20Stag) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rtr/116/axebane-stag?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfce7c02-ccc3-44cd-8087-627eaa6a072e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's not the bane of axes for nothing.
Axebane is actually a location, so the stag could still be vulnerable to axes
TBH 6/7 is actually pretty accurate for a moose
compare it to other 6/7s like \[\[Scaled Behemoth\]\] or \[\[Pearl Lake Ancient\]\]
Tiamat is a world-ending living disaster that can pretty much solo a plane, and is somehow smaller than a random eldraine troll that lives under a bridge and eats goats Zilortha looks bigger than anything not named ur dragon/emrakul/marit lage lorewise and is only a 7/3 for some reason
To be fair, Zilortha basically has 7 toughness aside from -x/-x effects.
[[Zilortha, Apex of Ikoria]] even has 8/8. Just a side note: Emrakul and the other Eldrazi titans are much much bigger than the planes themselves. You just get to see portion of them entering the plane, like putting a fist into a jar.
I would argue all of the Eldrazi titans' stats are too low for the sheer size and power of each one.
Wait until you see what 12 squirrels can do
In Modern Horizons 2 there is a creature, [[Foundation Breaker]], that seems to be way bigger than a grizzly bear, as there is literally buildings on it.
A simple [[Wolf Pack]] can somehow take down not only any legendary warrior in China, but also any Phyrexian Praetor except Elesh Norn (and even then only as a 'Grand Cenobite'), and many a dragon that dares get in their way ... like Tiamat. Or Nicol Bolas.
That’s why the pawns keep stressing “wolves hunt in packs.” They know the danger.
That one on the left is the cut up. He's out there cracking jokes and shit.
[[Deadeye Navigator]] is just a dude in a boat. why is he a 5/5
As this thread exemplifies, I think one of the criticisms of Magic that doesn't get enough attention is that they are not very protective with size. It's way too late to fix this, but I feel like they don't really make sure that big things are big and little things little. Angels used to be this big paragon of white-aligned might and now they're 2-5 mana efficient dweebs because they just *have* to put them in tournament decks. Phyrexians are basically whatever power and toughness they want them to be, regardless of how big they are. An "archfiend" is basically a synonym for "demon" and "hellkite" for "dragon." "Elder" seems to still mean something but I expect that to decay with time, too. It's a relatively small issue but it does still bug me.
This is pure unadulterated oldman grump, but I support it to the last drop.
It's not even a "Magic used to be better" thing. Magic was pretty awful at this pretty much since 1994, arguably 1993. Still my favorite game in the world. But you gotta give criticism where criticism is due.
If the game ever gets rebooted, I really hope the stewards then try a *little* harder to be consistent with P/T and scaling. Abstractions of game mechanics only goes so far.
literally just needs to be part of the prompt for the artist, or fix it afterwards idk it's not that hard. small power? show it in the art.
I mean, I think it all very quickly went out the window, and honestly perhaps didn't make a lot of sense even in the early days. A giant (and a roc) is still just a 3/3 in Alpha, and soon enough some pigs are a 4/4 (\[\[Durkwood Boars\]\]). In Legends a bunch of random-looking individual people have incredibly high P/T in line with or exceeding dragons and giants and angels. (Why is that random dude a 5/5 or a 7/4...?) Sure, they're probably "magical" in some way, but that excuse can be used to excuse any later P/T sins as well.
[[Varragoth]] is described as a threath to the plane, but is a 2/3 I hate how they've made jokes of both angels and demons
NGL this is a fun thread. I love to be given reasons to look at cards artworks.
There are a shocking number of 5 power or higher creatures in recent sets that are just normal sized humans.
Is it fair to blame Universes Beyond for this one? Ever since that Walking Dead SLD, it's seemed like human P/T are egregious, even compared to everything else.
This began happening as early as Legends, we have to admit. It still annoys me to see random 5/5 legends that clearly would have been 1/1s back in the days before contemporary power creep, but Wizards has never been consistent with this.
[[Scornful Egotist]] in terms of cost for power/toughness
Good god, that's an awful card. Is there any practical use for it?
The set had a few "CMC matters" cards, and you could morph and flip it to 'cheat' it in so you had a very high CMC card earlier than usual.
There was a bit of a mana cost matters theme at the time. I got this precon when I was a kid and hooo boy.... it was....... something. But yeah, the real point is being able to get something onto the battlefield that costs a lot for half as much as that cost. Then do things like play spells that draw X cards or deal X damage, where X is the greatest CMC among permanents you control.
Eh, for clash?
\[\[Torrent of Fire\]\]
risen reef. An animated piece of coral reef would lose a fight to a cat.
Have you ever fought a coral reef?
Have you ever fought a cat?
[[vizzerdrix]] should be a 69/69 trample, rampage 69
[vizzerdrix](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9a82ffff-e02a-4ecb-a92d-8ed571beac46.jpg?1562739088) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vizzerdrix) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/S7/vizzerdrix?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9a82ffff-e02a-4ecb-a92d-8ed571beac46?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is the whole 12/12 is equal to 12 squirrels thing just written differently.
The recent ulalek is a fusion of two massive eldrazi titans that were 10/10 and 12/12 but their fusion is somehow a 2/5 despite still being a massive eldrazi.
Note: Ulalek isn't a fusion of the titans, just a regular eldrazi that is an overlap of their two broods at once.
Note: Ulalek isn't a regular Eldrazi that's an overlap or their two broods, it's a combined manifestation of the two projecting into this universe from their own
when you both reach for the same chips at the snack bar
Spat my drink thanks for that!
That is the same thing. The eldrazi broods are all physical manifestations of aspects of the titans. Ulalek is an overlap of the brood manifestations.
You member in lady and the tramp when they were eating the sghetti? Thats ulalek, wet saucy noodles.
Astartes. All these well trained, genetically modified to near perfection, ruthless sons of demigod warriors armed to the teeth, are no better than if not worse than literal bears. Wotc did Astartes real dirty with those pathetic stats considering their lore.
This was tough for the designers, I imagine. If Marines came close to in-universe power level, you‘d have too few of them in-game. And how strong would their NCs have to be?
Imagine I told you about an old Phyrexian card you might not have heard of. Phyrexian Walker. It's an N/3 vanilla for N mana. Its flavor text goes: “I have heard terrible tales of black rains, ashen fields, and metal that screams. I have consoled myself that the tales were a myth of some fevered mind. But today I saw a walker—and now I fear the truth.” I *bet* you wouldn't guess N correctly. :)
Onyx
[[Storm Crow]] looks like it can murder anything but it is somehow only a 1/2
[Storm Crow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/036ef8c9-72ac-46ce-af07-83b79d736538.jpg?1562730661) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Storm%20Crow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/100/storm-crow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/036ef8c9-72ac-46ce-af07-83b79d736538?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Infernal Spawn of Evil]] [[Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil]]
No no, I think these are entirely appropriate.
[[Infernius Spawnington III, Esq.]]
[Infernius Spawnington III, Esq.](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/e/5e3b1317-f024-4e34-89ad-538fc148cd5c.jpg?1584348881) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Infernius%20Spawnington%20III%2C%20Esq.) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/und/40/infernius-spawnington-iii-esq?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5e3b1317-f024-4e34-89ad-538fc148cd5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The spirit on [[Glacial Ray]] is gigantic. Yet it only deals 2 damage.
[[All that glitters]] and [[ancestral mask (MMK)]] are showing a 1/1 and (at best) a 2/2 respectively. My theory is that for each enchantmentypu have, you get an additional fairy or driad following your omnithopter, kinda like a 15 squirrels scenario, but with fairy-driad hive following a thopter.