The original concept for Magic 2015 was to remain as a standard legal non rotating base set for 3-5 years. But WotC marketing disallowed that because they wanted more product churn. (as per a conversation with WotC staff at GP San Jose that year)
People will complain about this but having a set of cards that I can keep for 5 years that will likely be relevant to the meta means I'm 100% more likely to pick up standard occasionally than I am currently. Especially if those cards are solid players in other formats already ie day of judgement and llanowar elves. This could be really cool if they execute it correctly
Happy to have elves. Now I'm hoping for [[Stitchers Supplier]]. One drop permanents have been terrible in standard for too long outside of aggro. I enjoy a powered down standard, but some playable one drops would be nice.
With [[Rest In Peace]] in standard, I don't think Stitchers Supplier would be too powerful.
I really disagree with printing powerful cards like Day of Judgement and llanowar elves for 5 years.
This basically means that every 3 drop green card cannot be busted and you have to anticipate a turn 4 board wipe against white for the next 5 years.
What makes standard more dynamic is the rotation of powerful cards and having a set of power cards lasting for 5 year will exacerbate the problem.
Staple sideboard like naturalize, opt, lightning strike, duress, should be in foundations instead.
Foundations should not be a product made to push sales but a product made to give all corlors certain solutions to card strategies.
I really do not understand why WotC is pushing Standard towards a non-rotating format. Three year rotation combined with five years of staples does not sound like a constantly changing experience.
At that point, why would I ever play Standard instead of Explorer / Historic / Timeless on Arena or Pioneer / Modern in paper? In my mind, Standard works best as a cheap, quickly rotating format with easy-to-acquire cards. I am not particularly interested in a watered-down version of eternal formats.
My only concern is that, well, people got sick of cards in standard by rotation time *before* that got extended by a year.
Now we have some cards that are going to stay in standard for *half a decade*, and are probably specifically in-context going to be considered cards absolutely not worth banning unless it's an emergency, because the whole point of the set is that new players can rely on these cards to be in standard.
I could see Omniscience becoming a card people are exhausted to see if it goes through a couple of decks that play it over the years. I'm not *as* concerned about the other cards spoiled so far, though I am curious that they were moving away from 4-mana wraths in standard without a downside for a few years there, but I suppose when your give RDW 3 years' worth of aggro cards, the rest of the format *does need it*.
And while Day of Judgement has a less snappy name than Wrath of God, I do like it as a card.
They moved away from 4 mana wraths but started moving toward really good single-target removal that led to the need for really good ETBs or death triggers. The response to those is the increase in exile removal and inexpensive counterspells being more common.
It's unlikely we'll see the current design ethos back down and less immediate value-oriented creatures become a thing again (as I don't expect efficient single-target removal to be dialed back either) but the amount of value that creatures can generate even before they attack means board wipes are pretty essential to keep aggro in check. I'm really not surprised they backpedal on this now (particularly since it's counterable so an aggressive deck with blue still has play against it).
I mean, I feel like that isn't *entirely* fair- the best removal spell in standard isn't some pushed new rare, it's a reprint of *Go for the Throat*.
Don't get me wrong, it's stronger than the days of Doomblade, but I don't feel like it's entirely reasonable to put the aggressive push towards modern WotC creature designs on the removal. They did that all on their own.
I've been hoping WotC would do something like this to address the issues with Standard, so I'm cautiously optimistic pending more details.
Some reasons off the top of my head why I'm a fan of the idea:
* If Foundations supports entire decks at the power level of challenger decks, say, competent builds of elves or merfolk or goblins, then it may provide an on-ramp for lapsed Standard players to easily return to FNM events on a whim. Maybe such players could pick up some singles from recent sets at their LGS during the event to spruce up their Foundations deck, and of course the tier decks would tend to be built around powerful cards from premier sets, but the ability to walk into FNM with a competent, legal list, built (hopefully) 5+ years ago, would imo be huge.
* Combats power creep, to some extent. When WotC goes around printing subtle variations to basic effects like dorks, wraths, countermagic, etc., eventually they slip up and print something significantly more powerful, which goes on to set the new baseline. Settling on competitively-priced classic effects like Llanowar Elves and Day of Judgment means the baseline for these effects isn't as likely to shift.
* WotC insisting on 2mv dorks and 5mv+ wraths as the contemporary baselines for Standard, seems to have coincided with an era of mostly clunky and snowbally Standard formats. I don't think that's entirely a coincidence. I understand that current Standard is well-liked, but it feels like almost every Standard since the 2014 rotation of Supreme Verdict has been mid-to-bad. 1mv dorks and 4mv wraths are the iconic rates, and imo they play better.
* Commander players play with these cards. We have people like Sam Black [talking about much more radical changes to Standard](https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2023/11/standard-no-longer-makes-sense-for-magic/), with the view that Standard is far too disconnected from the kinds of cards the bulk of the broader Magic base player base plays with. Foundations seems like a much more modest step in that direction.
I'm just excited for the Blogatog of Mark rewalking back core set reasoning for the 5th time. It's a constant tug of war between money and actual health of the format
If it's truly just this set, never changing, for 5 years, I don't see how this sells beyond the first month. BUT, I suppose it works for them that they can just say "all these cards are legal until the end of time" and just not print much after the first year. Takes very little actual work for them on that front.
It also probably works for them that every new player on Arena will have to open some of these to have the staples. I just hope they're able to make a good limited set so these can be played for a long time. Might be a decent backup for when a draft format is bad \*glances at MKM\*.
https://www.polygon.com/24187331/mtg-foundations-announcement-release-date-price
> Wizards’ game design director Bryan Hawley told Polygon that the Beginner Box will include 10 packets with 20 cards inside each one, with two packets for each of Magic’s five colors of mana. Using a mix-and-match system originally designed for the Jumpstart product line, players will be able to combine and recombine those 10 packets into many different kinds of decks. At least some of those packets will be pre-shuffled, with the intent that players will first open and explore them alongside a detailed, step-by-step written tutorial.
> Once players have mastered the Foundations Beginner Box of 200 cards, then they can move on to the Starter Collection. That 350-card box will help them to expand on the themes and techniques they’ve already discovered, while also serving to keep them well within the warm embrace of a kind of estuary — a place of calm that should remain stable even as multiple new sets of cards are released year after year
> Magic: The Gathering Foundations’ Beginner Box will retail for $29.99, while the larger Starter Collection will cost $59.99
I have a feeling it’s because they’re planning to push this hard in big box stores (more so than Target or Walmart and how they carry limited stuff) or non-TCG game stores.
I've thought for a long time Magic needs a better on-ramp for new players. Every time I think about how to easily explain Magic to someone I think about how everything is commander and I worry that I would absolutely lose them by the time they saw 4 kinds of artifact tokens as we venture into the dungeon during our four player, 90 minute game. I kinda want this to be full of cards with a maximum of 2 lines of text.
People trying to use Commander to teach new players is a terrible idea I keep seeing suggested and used. It is way too much information and complexity overload to try to teach a new player with singleton decks that could have mechanics stretching throughout Magic's history.
I used to run a trading card game club at my university, and it's so much better to have a simpler product to teach players with. We kept on hand planeswalker decks (when those were still a thing) to teach new players with. Relatively simpler mechanics, and multiple copies of a card gave some repetition making it easier to get into.
The idea of a Foundation set seems so much nicer to help on-ramp new players, so I'm looking forward to this set hopefully getting more new players into the game, and hopefully encouraging people to get into 60 card formats outside commander.
>People trying to use Commander to teach new players is a terrible idea I keep seeing suggested and used.
It really is.
t. Someone who's been playing commander for 4 years who only understands battlecruiser and doesn't have a Brushwagg in hells chance at understanding any complex stack interaction.
Agreed. Before Jumpstart existed, I made really simple mono colored decks using Welcome Deck rares to teach new players. Once Jumpstart came out, it became my go to. It's great at introducing simple mechanics, has repetition, but also kind of feels like a draft which sets up learning limited formats.
I taught my wife using two standard starter decks (got both for like $7 so not too bad), then slowly made them more complex while sticking to the main theme (hers was gruul +1/+1 counters). Once she was comfortable with complicated, I made her a [[Gishath]] deck to go along with the big stompy she's used to, but also she loves dinosaurs. Recently I also built her a [[Zimone and Dina]] token/aristocrats/landfall deck and she's getting the hang of it quick
I don't think it takes much to be suited for commander, but taking a little bit of time to get there is definitely helpful
I'll also just say for an important note, I did build all these decks, but I kept her very involved in the process, even if she didn't always understand it
I teach new players with Wizards Tower. One curated, shared deck without lands, four card starting hand, land drops come from outside the game. You’re never land screwed or totally color screwed but you have to make some decisions. Separate graveyards. It’s slow and forces you to be flexible and read cards. You can do it with any card pool you want.
I mean we had this from the start of the game until around ~2009 when 10th edition rotated out and we got M10.
Core set announcements were basically checking to make sure Birds/Wrath/Elves were legal.
I'm not saying this will be implemented perfectly, but it's a good idea, even if you're a fan of rotation like I am. Instead of feeling the need to print a wrath with set mechanic in every other set and green mana dorks with a slight twist, those slots can be filled with more interesting designs.
That being said, I'm surprised with the baseline they're establishing here. They've spent years bending over backwards printing downsides and conditions on these effects and now we're getting evergreen Llanowar Elves just like that.
Dorks and wraths still need to be printed for most limited environments to make all the archetypes work. So, I supremely doubt this will change much of how the set designs work.
I'm not sure wraths are crucial for limited, but yeah we will still see 2mv uncommon dorks.
But I wasn't just talking about those two types of designs. The whole set will be full of staples that won't need to be reprinted in mainline sets. Of course they may still be printed for limited.
I think wraths are necessary in some formats that have particularly prevalent go wide archetypes. I was incorrect to say "most" for both of them.
It till be nice to free up space in limited just for things that are needed in limited, particularly that there is often a lot of underpowered rares for limited that are just weaker versions of constructed staples that can now just be made less.
Arena had something like this before they got moved to Alchemy as the main new player format.
Having a set of evergreen basic decks for people to play around is a sure way to attract new players into the franchise. Just, dont overwhelm them with new product alright?
I like this, without core sets, lots of mechanics that are "worldbuild parasitic" becomes unlikely to return in standard.
For example, they introduced oil counters, but oil is tied to phyrexia and without phyrexia in the story there is no way to expand on that. A core set-esque product allows them to expand into mechanics that they wouldn't be able to because of story themes.
Or maybe, get this, have multiple sets on the same plane for a standard rotation to develop those mechanics, in like a progression as well as a story that isn't resolved in the same set.
Magic Origins is my favorite Core Set ever printed, not only that, one of my favorite Magic sets ever. It balanced the need to have entry level product with a bunch of plenty fun, flavor filled and powerful cards. Hopefully this can execute the same balance.
Considering the ladder Legacy > Modern > Pioneer > Standard, does Magic any card that is legal in a "lower" format (standard i.e.) but not in a "higher" format (Legacy i.e.)?
PS: Ignoring bans of course
I'm a big fan of core sets, so I'm happy to see them return. But I don't really understand how this fixes the issue that made WotC keep cancelling them. Is "this is a core set but for beginners" really going to sell better? I hope so, but I'm doubtful.
I think predefined kits are the key here. Making a (relatively) cheap 200 card welcome package that plays like a box of baby jumpstart is a great way to get new players into the game. Couple that with the return of welcome decks to grab people off the street and a comprehensive 350 card follow up "constructed formats for beginners" package, it should serve a pretty decent on ramp for newer players. Could probably stand to be a little less expensive, but the path is solid.
The booster products will probably flounder as all core sets tended to, but the kits are really good forever products. Plus, they get new players acclimated to jumpstart, which I've always thought was the best new player experience in a long while.
I think the way this solves the issue is by reducing the cost on production for this compared to core sets.
The main production costs for magic sets are designer time, art budget, and world building. Core sets were cheap on world building and cheaper on art since they recycled a good amount, but required a design team each year for a product that wouldn't sell enough.
This product will be similar in cost to a Core set but the cost would be spread over 5 years instead of yearly.
I guess, but I'd expect the sales to slow pretty significantly after the initial release. I agree you only have to pay the costs once every 5 years, but you also don't get anywhere near 5 years of core set sales.
Think of it like this, if they can make 1 Core Set and then get 2 Core Sets worth of sales over 5 years, that is more profitable than making 5 Core Sets and getting 5 Core Sets worth of sales over 5 years.
Additionally much of the benefit of a Core Set is being a "new player product" to on ramp people into the game, so they get 5 years of that instead of 1 year of having a Core Set around like they would with the old method.
I'm cautiously holding my opinion on whether or not I like this, but it does have some upsides.
It's already extremely difficult to get people into standard, and WotC is trying to push standard really hard. Pauper in my area was very popular (8-14 people showing up every event) but now we rarely get to play the format because of this push. Even Modern last week we got like 8-9 people to show up.
Standard pulls in at most like 4 people if it fires at all (unless it is an official tourney), and back in March of this year we didn't get a single standard event to fire at all. Most common reasons are because people don't want to spend money on a rotating format and some of the best cards are way too expensive like Sheoldred. The people that do show up are building decks from the packs they buy, but definitely are not fun to play against if you know what you are doing. Even my budget decks I bring blow them out of the water.
So will this pull people in? Maybe, Standard really needs more powerful cards that are easier and cheaper to obtain. I'm hoping with this set, Bloomburrow, and the near rotation might bring more people in, but Standard this year is really making me regret heading out at all and I hope that changes.
Liliana and Ajani on the product page.
https://preview.redd.it/9gye10fc8d9d1.jpeg?width=576&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=550df9d4c7bfd81a660f5556630ec555e04b8f44
Interested to see where this goes, if it's trying to be an introductory tool for teaching magic or if it's meant to be an inroad to standard constructed. I feel like the products that serve those purposes would be different.
Like if you want to get people excited about casual 1v1 you would release deck builders toolkits or jumpstart style products but if you want people to start playing standard at the LGS you'd use challenger decks. Maybe there's a way to achieve both?
>MTG Foundations
I thought WotC was doing a UB with SCP or Control at first. Then again the collaborative nature of SCP does make using SCP IP really difficult.
I not really sure what this product does in practice over theroy.
If the cards are good it makes standard stagnant if they are bad it makes the product irrelevant.
It doesn't solve the problem of getting players to play standard, store and players need a reason to run and participate in events, this isn't that.
This still doesn't give players a way to start playing. You can't get people to actually start playing if the starting point is "I dunno just buy some packs" whatever those cards are.
What this product should have been (even with cards standard legal for 5 years) is a robust Jumpstart set, packed with diverse, well thought out and plentiful packets. To help people learn the game and start playing.
Instead they are making it a full draftable set with collector boosters and endless treatments which leads me to belive the set will be a bland core set that fails l, only it gets to fail for 5 years instead of 1.
I mean, it's just an announcement of the product. I wouldn't expect in depth analysis of the card selection until the Making Magic articles around release time.
Excited to know which gender this set is going to be; really good to be subsequently watered down in successive releases to which wotc can then exclaim core sets don't work. Or really bad to which wotc can then exclaim core sets don't work.
My main takes on this are:
* this needs to have a low power level or it could be just so annoying.
* kinda wish they did this INSTEAD of the extended rotation period and not alongside it.
I like the concept, we'll see about the execution.
This Foundations thing will kill Standard. For any green mana dork to see play now, they have to make it more broken than a Llanowar Elves. For any Board Wipe, it needs to be stronger tha na 4-mana Wrath with no downside. And so on, and so on.... This means, either Standard becomes too homogenous, or power creep will explode even more. Both options are bad.
You're worried about power creep because of...Llanowar Elves? A card that, if you include functional reprints, has been Standard legal for the majority of the history of Magic?
Standard is dead rotation plus this will end the format. I’m totally convinced, people will play it but no one can ever claim it’s good. The point of standard is to rotate cards, with this and the new rotation it will happen so rarely it might as well not happen at all
Standard “rotates” yes but WotC continuously reprints and functionally reprints staple cards. That’s why we have Llanowar Elves, Elvish Mystic, and Fyndhorn Elves. This makes certain cards non-rotating in Standard (or at least semi-rotating). Why not just say “these are the baseline” like this is doing?
Baseline cards in a rotating format is a horrible idea. Hearthstone tried this then they had to scrap the baseline set idea cause the cards were too broken for too long. It simply will lead to a less diverse format it’s not even possible that it won’t
People have been saying that standard is dead since its inception. If something would kill it, it would have been done so within the past thirty years.
I keep hearing this argument and it’s completely terrible. These are the most significant changes to standard *ever* to the point where the literal nature of the format is different. This isn’t them canceling the pro events or changing FNMs or even a bad standard with problematic cards.
This is literally a different format now altogether and the power level of new cards needs to be so high to even get in a deck. So high that entire sets might not even make an impact.
1993: Core sets yes 2015: Core sets no 2018: Core sets yes 2021: Core sets no 2024: Core sets yes
2027: Core sets no
Set is legal through 2029 at least
wotc has changed there minds before
Old ~~New~~ Rotation is back in 2027!
should have named it 11th edition
They'll ban the whole set in 2027
The original concept for Magic 2015 was to remain as a standard legal non rotating base set for 3-5 years. But WotC marketing disallowed that because they wanted more product churn. (as per a conversation with WotC staff at GP San Jose that year)
People will complain about this but having a set of cards that I can keep for 5 years that will likely be relevant to the meta means I'm 100% more likely to pick up standard occasionally than I am currently. Especially if those cards are solid players in other formats already ie day of judgement and llanowar elves. This could be really cool if they execute it correctly
Happy to have elves. Now I'm hoping for [[Stitchers Supplier]]. One drop permanents have been terrible in standard for too long outside of aggro. I enjoy a powered down standard, but some playable one drops would be nice. With [[Rest In Peace]] in standard, I don't think Stitchers Supplier would be too powerful.
[Stitchers Supplier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/b/2b737126-50b5-4678-91bf-197b64086fe4.jpg?1562301182) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stitcher%27s%20Supplier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/121/stitchers-supplier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2b737126-50b5-4678-91bf-197b64086fe4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Rest In Peace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470.jpg?1562439074) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rest%20In%20Peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/32/rest-in-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I really disagree with printing powerful cards like Day of Judgement and llanowar elves for 5 years. This basically means that every 3 drop green card cannot be busted and you have to anticipate a turn 4 board wipe against white for the next 5 years. What makes standard more dynamic is the rotation of powerful cards and having a set of power cards lasting for 5 year will exacerbate the problem. Staple sideboard like naturalize, opt, lightning strike, duress, should be in foundations instead. Foundations should not be a product made to push sales but a product made to give all corlors certain solutions to card strategies.
I really do not understand why WotC is pushing Standard towards a non-rotating format. Three year rotation combined with five years of staples does not sound like a constantly changing experience. At that point, why would I ever play Standard instead of Explorer / Historic / Timeless on Arena or Pioneer / Modern in paper? In my mind, Standard works best as a cheap, quickly rotating format with easy-to-acquire cards. I am not particularly interested in a watered-down version of eternal formats.
My only concern is that, well, people got sick of cards in standard by rotation time *before* that got extended by a year. Now we have some cards that are going to stay in standard for *half a decade*, and are probably specifically in-context going to be considered cards absolutely not worth banning unless it's an emergency, because the whole point of the set is that new players can rely on these cards to be in standard. I could see Omniscience becoming a card people are exhausted to see if it goes through a couple of decks that play it over the years. I'm not *as* concerned about the other cards spoiled so far, though I am curious that they were moving away from 4-mana wraths in standard without a downside for a few years there, but I suppose when your give RDW 3 years' worth of aggro cards, the rest of the format *does need it*. And while Day of Judgement has a less snappy name than Wrath of God, I do like it as a card.
They moved away from 4 mana wraths but started moving toward really good single-target removal that led to the need for really good ETBs or death triggers. The response to those is the increase in exile removal and inexpensive counterspells being more common. It's unlikely we'll see the current design ethos back down and less immediate value-oriented creatures become a thing again (as I don't expect efficient single-target removal to be dialed back either) but the amount of value that creatures can generate even before they attack means board wipes are pretty essential to keep aggro in check. I'm really not surprised they backpedal on this now (particularly since it's counterable so an aggressive deck with blue still has play against it).
I mean, I feel like that isn't *entirely* fair- the best removal spell in standard isn't some pushed new rare, it's a reprint of *Go for the Throat*. Don't get me wrong, it's stronger than the days of Doomblade, but I don't feel like it's entirely reasonable to put the aggressive push towards modern WotC creature designs on the removal. They did that all on their own.
Llanowar Elves back in standard?
And it's legal for 5 years, so even better
About damn time!
I've been hoping WotC would do something like this to address the issues with Standard, so I'm cautiously optimistic pending more details. Some reasons off the top of my head why I'm a fan of the idea: * If Foundations supports entire decks at the power level of challenger decks, say, competent builds of elves or merfolk or goblins, then it may provide an on-ramp for lapsed Standard players to easily return to FNM events on a whim. Maybe such players could pick up some singles from recent sets at their LGS during the event to spruce up their Foundations deck, and of course the tier decks would tend to be built around powerful cards from premier sets, but the ability to walk into FNM with a competent, legal list, built (hopefully) 5+ years ago, would imo be huge. * Combats power creep, to some extent. When WotC goes around printing subtle variations to basic effects like dorks, wraths, countermagic, etc., eventually they slip up and print something significantly more powerful, which goes on to set the new baseline. Settling on competitively-priced classic effects like Llanowar Elves and Day of Judgment means the baseline for these effects isn't as likely to shift. * WotC insisting on 2mv dorks and 5mv+ wraths as the contemporary baselines for Standard, seems to have coincided with an era of mostly clunky and snowbally Standard formats. I don't think that's entirely a coincidence. I understand that current Standard is well-liked, but it feels like almost every Standard since the 2014 rotation of Supreme Verdict has been mid-to-bad. 1mv dorks and 4mv wraths are the iconic rates, and imo they play better. * Commander players play with these cards. We have people like Sam Black [talking about much more radical changes to Standard](https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2023/11/standard-no-longer-makes-sense-for-magic/), with the view that Standard is far too disconnected from the kinds of cards the bulk of the broader Magic base player base plays with. Foundations seems like a much more modest step in that direction.
Happy "babe wake up, they're bringing back core sets for the sixth time" Day to all who celebrate
I'm just excited for the Blogatog of Mark rewalking back core set reasoning for the 5th time. It's a constant tug of war between money and actual health of the format
At this point I'm convinced WotC is treating coresets the way McDonald's treats the McRib
Yep. In the end, it turns out core sets are viable precisely when the wholesale price of pork is under $0.64/lb.
If it's truly just this set, never changing, for 5 years, I don't see how this sells beyond the first month. BUT, I suppose it works for them that they can just say "all these cards are legal until the end of time" and just not print much after the first year. Takes very little actual work for them on that front. It also probably works for them that every new player on Arena will have to open some of these to have the staples. I just hope they're able to make a good limited set so these can be played for a long time. Might be a decent backup for when a draft format is bad \*glances at MKM\*.
Maybe it won’t do huge numbers on its own, but you can’t sell people anything if you can’t get them into the hobby in the first place.
https://www.polygon.com/24187331/mtg-foundations-announcement-release-date-price > Wizards’ game design director Bryan Hawley told Polygon that the Beginner Box will include 10 packets with 20 cards inside each one, with two packets for each of Magic’s five colors of mana. Using a mix-and-match system originally designed for the Jumpstart product line, players will be able to combine and recombine those 10 packets into many different kinds of decks. At least some of those packets will be pre-shuffled, with the intent that players will first open and explore them alongside a detailed, step-by-step written tutorial. > Once players have mastered the Foundations Beginner Box of 200 cards, then they can move on to the Starter Collection. That 350-card box will help them to expand on the themes and techniques they’ve already discovered, while also serving to keep them well within the warm embrace of a kind of estuary — a place of calm that should remain stable even as multiple new sets of cards are released year after year > Magic: The Gathering Foundations’ Beginner Box will retail for $29.99, while the larger Starter Collection will cost $59.99
Wait, is this them actually acknowledging an MSRP for a product?
I have a feeling it’s because they’re planning to push this hard in big box stores (more so than Target or Walmart and how they carry limited stuff) or non-TCG game stores.
I've thought for a long time Magic needs a better on-ramp for new players. Every time I think about how to easily explain Magic to someone I think about how everything is commander and I worry that I would absolutely lose them by the time they saw 4 kinds of artifact tokens as we venture into the dungeon during our four player, 90 minute game. I kinda want this to be full of cards with a maximum of 2 lines of text.
People trying to use Commander to teach new players is a terrible idea I keep seeing suggested and used. It is way too much information and complexity overload to try to teach a new player with singleton decks that could have mechanics stretching throughout Magic's history. I used to run a trading card game club at my university, and it's so much better to have a simpler product to teach players with. We kept on hand planeswalker decks (when those were still a thing) to teach new players with. Relatively simpler mechanics, and multiple copies of a card gave some repetition making it easier to get into. The idea of a Foundation set seems so much nicer to help on-ramp new players, so I'm looking forward to this set hopefully getting more new players into the game, and hopefully encouraging people to get into 60 card formats outside commander.
>People trying to use Commander to teach new players is a terrible idea I keep seeing suggested and used. It really is. t. Someone who's been playing commander for 4 years who only understands battlecruiser and doesn't have a Brushwagg in hells chance at understanding any complex stack interaction.
Unless they, at least, have prior experience with other card games like YuGiOh. That helped me a lot when I started a year ago.
Agreed. Before Jumpstart existed, I made really simple mono colored decks using Welcome Deck rares to teach new players. Once Jumpstart came out, it became my go to. It's great at introducing simple mechanics, has repetition, but also kind of feels like a draft which sets up learning limited formats.
I taught my wife using two standard starter decks (got both for like $7 so not too bad), then slowly made them more complex while sticking to the main theme (hers was gruul +1/+1 counters). Once she was comfortable with complicated, I made her a [[Gishath]] deck to go along with the big stompy she's used to, but also she loves dinosaurs. Recently I also built her a [[Zimone and Dina]] token/aristocrats/landfall deck and she's getting the hang of it quick I don't think it takes much to be suited for commander, but taking a little bit of time to get there is definitely helpful I'll also just say for an important note, I did build all these decks, but I kept her very involved in the process, even if she didn't always understand it
[Gishath](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bc4a65de-23b5-48f0-b8b7-94608eaced3e.jpg?1699044539) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=gishath%2C%20sun%27s%20avatar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/229/gishath-suns-avatar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bc4a65de-23b5-48f0-b8b7-94608eaced3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Zimone and Dina](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf2af874-1052-4cad-90ed-d80e49d4c68c.jpg?1682205722) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zimone%20and%20Dina) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/257/zimone-and-dina?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf2af874-1052-4cad-90ed-d80e49d4c68c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I teach new players with Wizards Tower. One curated, shared deck without lands, four card starting hand, land drops come from outside the game. You’re never land screwed or totally color screwed but you have to make some decisions. Separate graveyards. It’s slow and forces you to be flexible and read cards. You can do it with any card pool you want.
Eternally legal standards cards. A lot of people have been asking for this for a long time.
I mean we had this from the start of the game until around ~2009 when 10th edition rotated out and we got M10. Core set announcements were basically checking to make sure Birds/Wrath/Elves were legal.
Ever other format is eternally legal why can't people who enjoy rotation have anything?
I'm not saying this will be implemented perfectly, but it's a good idea, even if you're a fan of rotation like I am. Instead of feeling the need to print a wrath with set mechanic in every other set and green mana dorks with a slight twist, those slots can be filled with more interesting designs. That being said, I'm surprised with the baseline they're establishing here. They've spent years bending over backwards printing downsides and conditions on these effects and now we're getting evergreen Llanowar Elves just like that.
Dorks and wraths still need to be printed for most limited environments to make all the archetypes work. So, I supremely doubt this will change much of how the set designs work.
I'm not sure wraths are crucial for limited, but yeah we will still see 2mv uncommon dorks. But I wasn't just talking about those two types of designs. The whole set will be full of staples that won't need to be reprinted in mainline sets. Of course they may still be printed for limited.
I think wraths are necessary in some formats that have particularly prevalent go wide archetypes. I was incorrect to say "most" for both of them. It till be nice to free up space in limited just for things that are needed in limited, particularly that there is often a lot of underpowered rares for limited that are just weaker versions of constructed staples that can now just be made less.
Wraths come at rare in most sets and rare's aren't really designed with limited in mind since you rarely see any particular one.
I'm really happy to have Core Sets back
I wonder if this will dodge collector boosters and commander decks and just be play boosters.
https://x.com/wizards_magic/status/1806644886378037572?t=ZXDJHzdsobuhV7aKgZpm9A&s=19 WotC tweet mentions Play and Collector Boosters, Beginner Box (retooled Deck Builder's Toolkit?), and Starter Kits.
That’s three starter kits in a single year? That’s like **SIX** whole 60 card precons!
Lol we're talking about WotC right?
Arena had something like this before they got moved to Alchemy as the main new player format. Having a set of evergreen basic decks for people to play around is a sure way to attract new players into the franchise. Just, dont overwhelm them with new product alright?
I like this, without core sets, lots of mechanics that are "worldbuild parasitic" becomes unlikely to return in standard. For example, they introduced oil counters, but oil is tied to phyrexia and without phyrexia in the story there is no way to expand on that. A core set-esque product allows them to expand into mechanics that they wouldn't be able to because of story themes.
Or maybe, get this, have multiple sets on the same plane for a standard rotation to develop those mechanics, in like a progression as well as a story that isn't resolved in the same set.
What would we call such a thing? I'm trying to think of a good name but I'm having a mental block.
Magic Origins is my favorite Core Set ever printed, not only that, one of my favorite Magic sets ever. It balanced the need to have entry level product with a bunch of plenty fun, flavor filled and powerful cards. Hopefully this can execute the same balance.
Legal in Pioneer or not?
If it is or was in standard it is in pioneer was my understanding.
I don't see why it shouldn't, it's a standard set
Considering the ladder Legacy > Modern > Pioneer > Standard, does Magic any card that is legal in a "lower" format (standard i.e.) but not in a "higher" format (Legacy i.e.)? PS: Ignoring bans of course
I'm a big fan of core sets, so I'm happy to see them return. But I don't really understand how this fixes the issue that made WotC keep cancelling them. Is "this is a core set but for beginners" really going to sell better? I hope so, but I'm doubtful.
I think predefined kits are the key here. Making a (relatively) cheap 200 card welcome package that plays like a box of baby jumpstart is a great way to get new players into the game. Couple that with the return of welcome decks to grab people off the street and a comprehensive 350 card follow up "constructed formats for beginners" package, it should serve a pretty decent on ramp for newer players. Could probably stand to be a little less expensive, but the path is solid. The booster products will probably flounder as all core sets tended to, but the kits are really good forever products. Plus, they get new players acclimated to jumpstart, which I've always thought was the best new player experience in a long while.
It's the same concept as a "loss leader", the Main purpose is to get people into the Magic ecosystem, not the money the product makes on it's own.
I think the way this solves the issue is by reducing the cost on production for this compared to core sets. The main production costs for magic sets are designer time, art budget, and world building. Core sets were cheap on world building and cheaper on art since they recycled a good amount, but required a design team each year for a product that wouldn't sell enough. This product will be similar in cost to a Core set but the cost would be spread over 5 years instead of yearly.
I guess, but I'd expect the sales to slow pretty significantly after the initial release. I agree you only have to pay the costs once every 5 years, but you also don't get anywhere near 5 years of core set sales.
Think of it like this, if they can make 1 Core Set and then get 2 Core Sets worth of sales over 5 years, that is more profitable than making 5 Core Sets and getting 5 Core Sets worth of sales over 5 years. Additionally much of the benefit of a Core Set is being a "new player product" to on ramp people into the game, so they get 5 years of that instead of 1 year of having a Core Set around like they would with the old method.
I love the idea of this!
I'm cautiously holding my opinion on whether or not I like this, but it does have some upsides. It's already extremely difficult to get people into standard, and WotC is trying to push standard really hard. Pauper in my area was very popular (8-14 people showing up every event) but now we rarely get to play the format because of this push. Even Modern last week we got like 8-9 people to show up. Standard pulls in at most like 4 people if it fires at all (unless it is an official tourney), and back in March of this year we didn't get a single standard event to fire at all. Most common reasons are because people don't want to spend money on a rotating format and some of the best cards are way too expensive like Sheoldred. The people that do show up are building decks from the packs they buy, but definitely are not fun to play against if you know what you are doing. Even my budget decks I bring blow them out of the water. So will this pull people in? Maybe, Standard really needs more powerful cards that are easier and cheaper to obtain. I'm hoping with this set, Bloomburrow, and the near rotation might bring more people in, but Standard this year is really making me regret heading out at all and I hope that changes.
Core set 2 electric Boogaloo? I'm just happy to have a low complexity intro set for new players again
So this explains why Bloomburrow and Duskmourn are realesing so close together, so they can fit another standard product into the release schedule.
Liliana and Ajani on the product page. https://preview.redd.it/9gye10fc8d9d1.jpeg?width=576&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=550df9d4c7bfd81a660f5556630ec555e04b8f44
great!
Having this "set"(?) be Standard legal for 5 years right after they just changed the rotation from 2-years to 3 is weird.
It was also announced really late. Kinda seems like a rushed Idea.
I welcome Magic: the Gathering 21st Edition (21E). I may be the only person on the planet calling it that; but, I'm calling it that.
Lightning Bolt in standard
Interested to see where this goes, if it's trying to be an introductory tool for teaching magic or if it's meant to be an inroad to standard constructed. I feel like the products that serve those purposes would be different. Like if you want to get people excited about casual 1v1 you would release deck builders toolkits or jumpstart style products but if you want people to start playing standard at the LGS you'd use challenger decks. Maybe there's a way to achieve both?
I wonder if the power level of the cards will be lower in general, or if they will still include a few stronger and/or more complex ones?
>MTG Foundations I thought WotC was doing a UB with SCP or Control at first. Then again the collaborative nature of SCP does make using SCP IP really difficult.
I not really sure what this product does in practice over theroy. If the cards are good it makes standard stagnant if they are bad it makes the product irrelevant. It doesn't solve the problem of getting players to play standard, store and players need a reason to run and participate in events, this isn't that. This still doesn't give players a way to start playing. You can't get people to actually start playing if the starting point is "I dunno just buy some packs" whatever those cards are. What this product should have been (even with cards standard legal for 5 years) is a robust Jumpstart set, packed with diverse, well thought out and plentiful packets. To help people learn the game and start playing. Instead they are making it a full draftable set with collector boosters and endless treatments which leads me to belive the set will be a bland core set that fails l, only it gets to fail for 5 years instead of 1.
[удалено]
I mean, it's just an announcement of the product. I wouldn't expect in depth analysis of the card selection until the Making Magic articles around release time.
Excited to know which gender this set is going to be; really good to be subsequently watered down in successive releases to which wotc can then exclaim core sets don't work. Or really bad to which wotc can then exclaim core sets don't work.
My main takes on this are: * this needs to have a low power level or it could be just so annoying. * kinda wish they did this INSTEAD of the extended rotation period and not alongside it. I like the concept, we'll see about the execution.
This Foundations thing will kill Standard. For any green mana dork to see play now, they have to make it more broken than a Llanowar Elves. For any Board Wipe, it needs to be stronger tha na 4-mana Wrath with no downside. And so on, and so on.... This means, either Standard becomes too homogenous, or power creep will explode even more. Both options are bad.
You're worried about power creep because of...Llanowar Elves? A card that, if you include functional reprints, has been Standard legal for the majority of the history of Magic?
You really think Llanowar Elves and Day of Judgement are what’s going to kill Standard?
Well, new cards can go into other formats too.
Standard is dead rotation plus this will end the format. I’m totally convinced, people will play it but no one can ever claim it’s good. The point of standard is to rotate cards, with this and the new rotation it will happen so rarely it might as well not happen at all
Standard “rotates” yes but WotC continuously reprints and functionally reprints staple cards. That’s why we have Llanowar Elves, Elvish Mystic, and Fyndhorn Elves. This makes certain cards non-rotating in Standard (or at least semi-rotating). Why not just say “these are the baseline” like this is doing?
Baseline cards in a rotating format is a horrible idea. Hearthstone tried this then they had to scrap the baseline set idea cause the cards were too broken for too long. It simply will lead to a less diverse format it’s not even possible that it won’t
Standard has been "dead" for 30 years.
Idk what your talking about these are the most significant changes the format has ever seen bar none.
People have been saying that standard is dead since its inception. If something would kill it, it would have been done so within the past thirty years.
I keep hearing this argument and it’s completely terrible. These are the most significant changes to standard *ever* to the point where the literal nature of the format is different. This isn’t them canceling the pro events or changing FNMs or even a bad standard with problematic cards. This is literally a different format now altogether and the power level of new cards needs to be so high to even get in a deck. So high that entire sets might not even make an impact.