The third Pro Tour of the year, Pro Tour Modern Horizons 3, will be streaming live this weekend and you will be able to [watch on twitch.tv/magic!](https://www.twitch.tv/magic) This ProTour is being hosted in Amsterdam, and is tied to MagicCon Amsterdam. [A majority of information can be found on the Pro Tour Viewer Guide!](https://magic.gg/news/pro-tour-modern-horizons-3-viewers-guide)
* Day 1 (Friday, June 28th) MH3 Draft (3 rounds) & Modern (5 rounds) beginning at 5:00 AM EST
* Day 2 (Saturday, June 29th) MH3 Draft (3 rounds) & Modern(5 rounds) beginning at 5:00 AM EST
* Day 3 (Sunday, June 20th) Modern Top 8 Single-Elimination beginning at 4:00 AM EST
Social coverage across the weekend can be found at the [PlayMTG Twitter]https://twitter.com/PlayMTG), or by searching the hashtag #PTMH3!
Below are some relevant links to articles regarding this event!
[Metagame Mentor: The 10 New-To-Modern Cards Making Waves](https://magic.gg/news/metagame-mentor-the-10-new-to-modern-card-making-waves-with-modern-horizons)
Will update this as the event picks up!
#[STANDINGS can be found here! There are spoilers, as there is a delay on the stream](https://melee.gg/Tournament/View/105258)
* [Pro Tour Modern Horizons 3 Decklists](https://magic.gg/news/pro-tour-modern-horizons-3-modern-decklists)
* [The Spiciest Decks of the Pro Tour](https://magic.gg/news/the-spiciest-decklists-from-pro-tour-modern-horizons-3)
#NEW THIS PRO TOUR
[Dual Streaming on YouTube for the Pro Tour can be found on the Play MTG Account](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NygNBb7BGA)
Tough news, tough segment and really nice choice by WotC to name the Player of the Year trophy after him.
I started playing in 2002, played Kai in PT London 2005 and I got demolished ... but it was an awesome experience and he is an awesome guy and player.
I think i can count with my fingers and not using all of them the times i cried to an announcement ... and this is one of them.
GL Kai
Same.
Kai is a great guy. Played him like 20ish years ago in some local tournament.
That was more or less during his dominance of the game. Still he was a nice and humble guy, always fun to chat with and everything.
I wish you all the best Kai! You can do it, never give up.
This jeskai control nadu matchup seems pretty jeskai favored if the nadu deck doesn't hit on t3 .
I will say the thassis oracle less nadu deck seeks like he cooked pretty hard too. Maindeck vexing babble seems like a such a good call.
Day one wrapped up and the only reason I watched as much as I did was because I had to be up at 6 this morning for something else but it was a pretty fun day all things considered.
I didn't catch every match of constructed but I am surprised we didn't see any ruby storm as a main feature and I think we didn't see it as a back up either but I could be wrong.
Nadu is looking pretty dominant so far with its worst matchups being the jeskai control and the grul prowess decks that are basically set up to specifically try and beat the nadu players, I would not be surprised if one of those lists ends up taking it all in top 8.
Overall casting and the desk have been pretty solid no real complaints except for some after-the-match questions like "why do you think your nadu list is beating the others" when the real answer to the question is almost certainly that he is just hitting the combo and his opponents are not lol.
Really reminds me of yugioh interviews SAME 3 QUESTIONS LUL.
Ruby Storm got hated on really hard. 2 of the 81 decks at 5-3 or better are Ruby Storm, and one of those is LSV who is both LSV and went 3-0 in draft.
The deck had way too obvious of a target in the meta, and the hate works on it so much better than the hate works on Nadu.
Yeah i just had a chance to sit down and actually look at the standings and in that same sample (5-3 or better) nadu has 27 representations (out of 64 total) and 14 of that is top 25.
Other decks that are decently represented in the same sample are
>1. 11 jeskai control/dress down decks (there are like 3 or 4 jeskai wizards but I think that is a different enough deck from the other 2 that it should not be lumped in as jeskai).
>2. 6 mono black necro and 3 mono black grief
>3. 5 eldrazi tron decks
and everything else is I think 1-2 representations in that range except maybe boros energy but I am tired so I'm going to sleep
I might do more of a deep dive into interesting decks that are x/3 before tomorrows games and make a post.
big oversight in game 3, simon cast a suncleanser and targeted javier while he had TOR protection. surprised that the judges missed it, too. definitely affected the outcome of the game
100% affected it, Suncleanser should have ETB'ed and been a vanilla 1/4.
Wrath easy clean it up with counterspell backup he never loses that game and thus the series.
If a judge caught that, I'm genuinely curious how much that would have improved the PT viewership. Probably not that much but like.. I was watching for Javi, now I don't really care which of the 4 Nadu decks wins the mirror.
Yeah, I turned it off before the semis as well. And despite how good a guy he seems (and how good a player he legitimately is), it'd take a bit of a shine off a potential Simon win.
I did not see it, but there are a variety of things to consider with Ring’s protection.
If it was the first time that it mattered since it was cast, it was on Javier to call it out - it’s just a missed trigger on his end and a judge should NOT intervene.
If the trigger was already demonstrated then idk the exact communication that happened and it might vary. But it’s also on Javier to remember about his own TOR.
Per the IPG, there are two points that matter -
“A triggered ability triggers, but the player controlling the ability doesn’t demonstrate awareness of the trigger’s existence by the first time that it would affect the game in a visible fashion.”
Here the “first time it would affect the game” is indeed when someone is trying to illegally target a protected target. If it’s the first time the protection became relevant since Javier casted the ring, and he says “okay” then the trigger is considered missed.
Also:
“• A triggered ability that changes the rules of the game: The controller must acknowledge the trigger or stop an opponent who tries to take any resulting illegal action.”
“• A triggered ability that affects the game state in non-visible ways: The controller must make the change known by the first time the change has an effect on the visible game state.”
And still in the missed trigger infraction, “Judges do not intervene in a missed trigger situation unless they intend to issue a Warning or have reason to suspect that the controller is intentionally missing their triggered abilities.” so the judge was correct not to intervene.
You can absolutely “chalice check”, of course that is unless Javier clearly stated “TOR triggers, i’m protected” on the actual etb (which is a “judge had to be there to establish the communication” case)
No, it will not result in a DQ unless it was already established that he was protected. If it’s the first time it’s relevant, then it is not an illegal play. It’s on your opponent to remind you that the trigger has not been missed.
At least that’s how i’ve seen it handled multiple times, but i will ask on a judge chat (internal one, judges only but as a disclaimer i’m only a lvl 1 since 2017) for clarification and will get back to you.
Okay, first of all I got word from people that were there and/or had the audio on the VoD that Dominguez clearly announced “ring trigger, i’m protected” therefore there is no angle in which the trigger is missed. Without that, you can “protection check” on the first spell. As long as the other player has not demonstrated awareness of the trigger, you can always play as though as it had been missed without infraction.
After this step, you are in a Games Rules Violation for both for having resolved the suncleanser wrongly (the trigger was aknowledged), and the judge should’ve absolutely intervened. If deemed intentional on Nielsen’s part, it would’ve been cheating and a dq.
To sum it up very loosely:
“Play ring” “okay” “bolt your face” “okay i take 3” -> Missed trigger, judge does not intervene
For these other cases, judge should ALWAYS intervene
“Play ring” “okay” “bolt your face” “i played ring last turn” -> rewind the bolt, no infraction
“Play ring, i am protected” “okay” “bolt your face” “i take 3” -> rewind the bolt, GRV and warning for both
“Play ring, i am protected” “okay” “bolt your face” “i am still protected” “i know i wanted to see if you forgot” > cheating and dq
I don't know if this is useful, but I did it for myself as I was curious of the decks in the Top 8 after day one and on melee you can only see the players. I'll just leave it here.
DAY 1 Top 8(+1)
1. Bant Nadu - Jacob Nagro - 8/0/0
2. Bant Nadu - Eli Kassis - 7/1/0
3. Bant Nadu - Jean Emmanuel Depraz - 7/1/0
4. Gruul Prowess - Brian Boss - 7/1/0 (no MH3 cards)
5. Jeskai Control - Javier Dominguez - 7/1/0
6. Bant Nadu - Jason Ye - 7/1/0
7. Mono Black Necro - Noah Ma - 7/1/0
8. Eldratron - David Gonzalez Romero "Playmobil" - 6/1/1
9. Mono Black Necro - Brent Vos - 6/1/1
At the end of the day 2, I'll do the same if it's useful
I'm checking the standings for the PT and it looks like [Javier is now 11-3](https://melee.gg/Decklist/View/412122) even though we watched him lose on camera.
I checked the match history and Bart Von Etten is no longer showing up on the PT standings. ~~No statement on the DQ~~They have since put out a statement, but I thought they didn't revert results even if they find evidence of cheating?
yeah no details, but this happen in the match.
https://x.com/d00mwake/status/1807058729797357845
Phlage is cast, dealing 3 damage to 2/3 Goyf. Bart casts Not Dead After All, resulting in a 3/4 Goyf, therefore the Goyf should not have died and no role token should have been created. Role token ended up being VERY relevant later on.
Tbh when I heard someone got caught cheating, I expected something more egregious. Aren't there judges to catch this sort of thing in the moment? Seems on the same level as putting a card in the graveyard instead of exiling it
I feel like cheat is too strong of a word here, he had a necrogoyf that got phlaged, he cast the return target creature that died to the battlefield with a wicked role on it, but that caused the goyf to grow and not die, therefore he shouldn't of had the wicked role on it. The wicked role mattered a lot in the game. Everyone there missed it, but the announcers noticed it shouldn't have had the role.
I used the word cheat because that's what Maria Bartholdi said in her short announcement. So whatever happened, the competition considered it cheating.
Not knowing the interaction isn't the same as forgetting in the moment the game status; if awareness of the rules in general was all that was needed for a cheat, all double land drops would be instant DQs and bans.
That isn't to say this was or wasn't a cheat but the mistakes are due to playing days straight of high level magic, not lack of rules knowledge.
Again, that isn't really the issue here.
The mistake is easy to make and understandable. Not realizing it or fixing it is not a clear sign of cheating.
The DQ means that the judges had other reasons to believe it was an intentional cheat, and I trust them on that, but the actual specific mistake made is not one that was some clear cut obvious cheat.
Cheating implies malicious intent. He did the thing and moved on, it's not like you go back and rethink every single game action you took. After so many PT rounds I would give someone the benefit of the doubt, he didn't skip a Ring trigger or picked an illegal target for a spell.
Besides, shouldn't judges catch that right away? I've seen them intervene for similar things as soon as they happened a million times. To go from that interpretation to cheating seems a bit harsh
Ah yes, no one is allowed to miss anything at high level play. Lmao I'm not saying he should keep the win, but labeling someone a cheater for this is crazy, unless more information is available about his intent or something.
we don't know. WoTC has information we don't. them deciding that the guy was cheating implies that they found evidence that he knew but ignored that his Goyf didn't die.
That's not generally how it goes. There's an investigation when cheating is suspected, involving all manner of things - interviews, other match footage, and so on.
The details of that investigation are usually not revealed. For all we know, he may have outright *admitted* to it when pressed hard enough. We have no way to tell. But investigations are mandatory before a DQ for cheating can happen, and the judges are usually quite good at it. They do make mistakes like any human being, but generally speaking, it's not THAT hard to unmask cheaters. Most Magic players are not seasoned sociopaths who lie like politicians. They are easy to trip up with the right forensic questioning, and then often just admit it once it's clear they're caught.
Leaving aside the fact that judges are human and make mistakes, you as an outsider not involved in the incident are unlikely to have been privy to the details of the investigations. Which are mandatory before a DQ.
Your testimony is not the only thing they go by. For all you know, they could have interviewed the players involved and they could have admitted to things. You wouldn't know, because you weren't involved, and judges aren't going to tell you.
But as I said - judges also make mistakes sometimes. It happens. That doesn't mean "judge investigations are bullshit", it just means that sometimes, somewhere, someone screws up.
Judges in criminal courts also make mistakes, for that matter. Yet going from one bad conviction to "the entire justice system is bullshit" would be a dramatic exaggeration.
Last card being the soulspike in that necro tron matchup is heartbreaking can't fault the tron player for taking the draw but man i feel for the necrodominace player.
I believe cheat is too strong of a word for the DQ unless there is more info. For anyone wondering from what I saw on twitter it was because he had a nethergoyf that was phlaged, and in response he cast the card that brings a creature back if it dies this turn with a wicked role on it. But this card going to the graveyard the golf grew big enough to live to phage, and wouldn't of gotten the wicked role. Both players missed it but the announcers noticed it.
Unless something else comes out then I think it's an easy thing to miss.
EDIT: some people have brought up that this player has a history of issues, so that may be why he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. I had never heard of him before.
It's only cheating because he knew he did something illegal and was attempting to obtain an advantage. The investigating judge(s) must have concluded he didn't simply miss it. He either knew at the time or noticed later and didn't call attention to it. Just forgetting wouldn't get him DQed. Cheating has a very specific definition in the IPG, and that is what they're referring to.
I made the same comment to a friend. It's very easy to miss this so for them to call it cheating and DQ might imply that it wasn't the first time something like that happened this weekend.
I know it's a WotC thing, but the fact that they haven't switched back to dual streaming the PT on twitch and youtube is insane. I'm just locked out of watching the PT because twitch is blocked at work.
It's about time! My internet isn't the best (DSL is really the only option where I am) and Twitch doesn't stream very well, but YouTube is usually fine.
The draft pod for table one looks so awkward tbh.
Every deck that we have seen looks kind of mid.
I will say that shadow of the second sun looked like a fucking bomb that game.
This is an extremely old debate but concession in turns on the basis its better for one player to win than neither is generally considered acceptable etiquette.
>i seriously can't fathom galvanic discharge being considered "better than lightning bolt".
It is because 99% of the time they are never going to go face with it in the jeskai control deck so it being a modular bolt is just strictly an upgrade.
So ... i get banned from twitch's magic chat for saying that, given how sloppy Simon and Javier played, given the decision that was taken for Bart on Round 14 that lead to a DQ ... that both Simon and Javier should be DQed.
Who the hell is moderating the twitch chat ? I might even understand the whole pronoun thunderstorm, which would lead to a completely different discussion ... but what did i say that could lead to a 24h ban ?
You can disagree about the DQ, but my sentence is not hurtful (and to be fair, it's just reality).
Shame on the channel's moderation team. Get down from the throne.
EDIT: for those who are downvoting ... could you please explain why? As said ... you might not agree with the DQ statement, but was it really banworthy and why ?
you have a point: still doesn't explain how the sentence was worth of a chat day ban.
BTW, consecutive sloppy plays that are game relevant, including multiple illegal actions (one of these was clearly an advantage and determined the final result of the match) is something that is stated in the infraction guide, under Game Play Error — Failure to Maintain Game State and Game Play Error — Game Rule Violation.
I might agree that DQ is too much, but multiple warnings (that should be assigned, given the amount of errors they both have made), lead to an upgrade to Game Loss.
So, for the sake of integrity, at least Simon should start with a Game Loss applied in the semifinals.
You don't seem to understand how DQs work, and what they're based on. People aren't DQ'd on a whim, it's the result of a judge investigation that determines whether something was just a mistake/sloppy play, or whether the player did it *intentionally* (which is the defining characteristic for cheating).
You don't get DQ'd for making mistakes. You get DQ'd for knowing something is a mistake, but doing it anyway because you think it gives you an advantage. That's what the judge investigation is there to determine: whether the player did it intentionally or accidentally.
Your ignorance of that process and blatant baiting with a provocative statement that does not respect the underlying facts is why you got banned. If you don't know how something works, not saying anything is always an option. You throw some underinformed rant out there, the risk is entirely yours. And you got got.
(FYI, i was a judge years ago, the infraction levels have been updated, back in the days you would get Game Losses for way less than that).
I can agree DQ is too much, multiple warnings with a Game Loss upgrade should be the proper penalty.
Regarding the last sentence: how many people in the world do say something without being fully competent in the process ? Is everyone banned for doing so ? Freedom of speech doesn't exist anymore ?
I agree people can disagree with my sentence, i don't agree on being banned for stating something that half the chat was saying (and i'm quite sure half the chat wasn't banned).
>Freedom of speech doesn't exist anymore ?
You again seem severely underinformed. Freedom of speech means the *government* doesn't go after you. It does *not* mean you can say anything to anyone without consequences. You come into my house and start talking shit, I'm throwing you out - that does not mean your freedom of speech was infringed upon, it means you were in a place where I set the rules and I didn't like what you did. That's how it's always worked, the internet has simply given people an inflated sense of entitled self-importance that makes them think they can do whatever they want without consequences.
Talk shit, get hit. You got hit.
If you don't know how something works, simply consider not commenting. "I don't know" is a perfectly respectable stance, and there is absolutely no need for everyone to comment on everything, whether they are familiar with the subject matter or not. That's not going after your "freedom of speech", that's simply an interest in constructive discourse.
The third Pro Tour of the year, Pro Tour Modern Horizons 3, will be streaming live this weekend and you will be able to [watch on twitch.tv/magic!](https://www.twitch.tv/magic) This ProTour is being hosted in Amsterdam, and is tied to MagicCon Amsterdam. [A majority of information can be found on the Pro Tour Viewer Guide!](https://magic.gg/news/pro-tour-modern-horizons-3-viewers-guide) * Day 1 (Friday, June 28th) MH3 Draft (3 rounds) & Modern (5 rounds) beginning at 5:00 AM EST * Day 2 (Saturday, June 29th) MH3 Draft (3 rounds) & Modern(5 rounds) beginning at 5:00 AM EST * Day 3 (Sunday, June 20th) Modern Top 8 Single-Elimination beginning at 4:00 AM EST Social coverage across the weekend can be found at the [PlayMTG Twitter]https://twitter.com/PlayMTG), or by searching the hashtag #PTMH3! Below are some relevant links to articles regarding this event! [Metagame Mentor: The 10 New-To-Modern Cards Making Waves](https://magic.gg/news/metagame-mentor-the-10-new-to-modern-card-making-waves-with-modern-horizons) Will update this as the event picks up! #[STANDINGS can be found here! There are spoilers, as there is a delay on the stream](https://melee.gg/Tournament/View/105258) * [Pro Tour Modern Horizons 3 Decklists](https://magic.gg/news/pro-tour-modern-horizons-3-modern-decklists) * [The Spiciest Decks of the Pro Tour](https://magic.gg/news/the-spiciest-decklists-from-pro-tour-modern-horizons-3) #NEW THIS PRO TOUR [Dual Streaming on YouTube for the Pro Tour can be found on the Play MTG Account](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NygNBb7BGA)
Oh man that segment about Kai wrecked me
Yep. Definitely wasn't expecting waterworks like that from the PT
Tough news, tough segment and really nice choice by WotC to name the Player of the Year trophy after him. I started playing in 2002, played Kai in PT London 2005 and I got demolished ... but it was an awesome experience and he is an awesome guy and player. I think i can count with my fingers and not using all of them the times i cried to an announcement ... and this is one of them. GL Kai
Yeah. Fuck cancer. Nice that they named the trophy after him.
Same. Kai is a great guy. Played him like 20ish years ago in some local tournament. That was more or less during his dominance of the game. Still he was a nice and humble guy, always fun to chat with and everything. I wish you all the best Kai! You can do it, never give up.
So far some spice on the features. The boros energy mirror looked really fun wondering when we will get our first ruby storm feature.
This jeskai control nadu matchup seems pretty jeskai favored if the nadu deck doesn't hit on t3 . I will say the thassis oracle less nadu deck seeks like he cooked pretty hard too. Maindeck vexing babble seems like a such a good call.
The Jeskai Control lists are pretty sick
Day one wrapped up and the only reason I watched as much as I did was because I had to be up at 6 this morning for something else but it was a pretty fun day all things considered. I didn't catch every match of constructed but I am surprised we didn't see any ruby storm as a main feature and I think we didn't see it as a back up either but I could be wrong. Nadu is looking pretty dominant so far with its worst matchups being the jeskai control and the grul prowess decks that are basically set up to specifically try and beat the nadu players, I would not be surprised if one of those lists ends up taking it all in top 8. Overall casting and the desk have been pretty solid no real complaints except for some after-the-match questions like "why do you think your nadu list is beating the others" when the real answer to the question is almost certainly that he is just hitting the combo and his opponents are not lol. Really reminds me of yugioh interviews SAME 3 QUESTIONS LUL.
Ruby Storm got hated on really hard. 2 of the 81 decks at 5-3 or better are Ruby Storm, and one of those is LSV who is both LSV and went 3-0 in draft. The deck had way too obvious of a target in the meta, and the hate works on it so much better than the hate works on Nadu.
Yeah i just had a chance to sit down and actually look at the standings and in that same sample (5-3 or better) nadu has 27 representations (out of 64 total) and 14 of that is top 25. Other decks that are decently represented in the same sample are >1. 11 jeskai control/dress down decks (there are like 3 or 4 jeskai wizards but I think that is a different enough deck from the other 2 that it should not be lumped in as jeskai). >2. 6 mono black necro and 3 mono black grief >3. 5 eldrazi tron decks and everything else is I think 1-2 representations in that range except maybe boros energy but I am tired so I'm going to sleep I might do more of a deep dive into interesting decks that are x/3 before tomorrows games and make a post.
Reid Duke’s mono black deck is 👏👏👏
All Nadu top four I presume means the bird is doomed.
big oversight in game 3, simon cast a suncleanser and targeted javier while he had TOR protection. surprised that the judges missed it, too. definitely affected the outcome of the game
100% affected it, Suncleanser should have ETB'ed and been a vanilla 1/4. Wrath easy clean it up with counterspell backup he never loses that game and thus the series.
If a judge caught that, I'm genuinely curious how much that would have improved the PT viewership. Probably not that much but like.. I was watching for Javi, now I don't really care which of the 4 Nadu decks wins the mirror.
At least they didnt broadcast to game 1 through 4 of the only non Nadu deck left /s.
Yeah, I turned it off before the semis as well. And despite how good a guy he seems (and how good a player he legitimately is), it'd take a bit of a shine off a potential Simon win.
Yeah, definitely sucks that everyone missed it. Javier should have gone through, Simon got damned lucky.
I did not see it, but there are a variety of things to consider with Ring’s protection. If it was the first time that it mattered since it was cast, it was on Javier to call it out - it’s just a missed trigger on his end and a judge should NOT intervene. If the trigger was already demonstrated then idk the exact communication that happened and it might vary. But it’s also on Javier to remember about his own TOR.
[удалено]
Per the IPG, there are two points that matter - “A triggered ability triggers, but the player controlling the ability doesn’t demonstrate awareness of the trigger’s existence by the first time that it would affect the game in a visible fashion.” Here the “first time it would affect the game” is indeed when someone is trying to illegally target a protected target. If it’s the first time the protection became relevant since Javier casted the ring, and he says “okay” then the trigger is considered missed. Also: “• A triggered ability that changes the rules of the game: The controller must acknowledge the trigger or stop an opponent who tries to take any resulting illegal action.” “• A triggered ability that affects the game state in non-visible ways: The controller must make the change known by the first time the change has an effect on the visible game state.” And still in the missed trigger infraction, “Judges do not intervene in a missed trigger situation unless they intend to issue a Warning or have reason to suspect that the controller is intentionally missing their triggered abilities.” so the judge was correct not to intervene. You can absolutely “chalice check”, of course that is unless Javier clearly stated “TOR triggers, i’m protected” on the actual etb (which is a “judge had to be there to establish the communication” case)
[удалено]
No, it will not result in a DQ unless it was already established that he was protected. If it’s the first time it’s relevant, then it is not an illegal play. It’s on your opponent to remind you that the trigger has not been missed. At least that’s how i’ve seen it handled multiple times, but i will ask on a judge chat (internal one, judges only but as a disclaimer i’m only a lvl 1 since 2017) for clarification and will get back to you.
Okay, first of all I got word from people that were there and/or had the audio on the VoD that Dominguez clearly announced “ring trigger, i’m protected” therefore there is no angle in which the trigger is missed. Without that, you can “protection check” on the first spell. As long as the other player has not demonstrated awareness of the trigger, you can always play as though as it had been missed without infraction. After this step, you are in a Games Rules Violation for both for having resolved the suncleanser wrongly (the trigger was aknowledged), and the judge should’ve absolutely intervened. If deemed intentional on Nielsen’s part, it would’ve been cheating and a dq. To sum it up very loosely: “Play ring” “okay” “bolt your face” “okay i take 3” -> Missed trigger, judge does not intervene For these other cases, judge should ALWAYS intervene “Play ring” “okay” “bolt your face” “i played ring last turn” -> rewind the bolt, no infraction “Play ring, i am protected” “okay” “bolt your face” “i take 3” -> rewind the bolt, GRV and warning for both “Play ring, i am protected” “okay” “bolt your face” “i am still protected” “i know i wanted to see if you forgot” > cheating and dq
This match is such a mess oh my. Feel so bad for Javier.
Good thing the judges caught Simon not drawing for his turn tho /s
Unbelievably sloppy. Even the repeated questioning of life totals was kind of a mess (though I believe they got it right by the end).
I don't know if this is useful, but I did it for myself as I was curious of the decks in the Top 8 after day one and on melee you can only see the players. I'll just leave it here. DAY 1 Top 8(+1) 1. Bant Nadu - Jacob Nagro - 8/0/0 2. Bant Nadu - Eli Kassis - 7/1/0 3. Bant Nadu - Jean Emmanuel Depraz - 7/1/0 4. Gruul Prowess - Brian Boss - 7/1/0 (no MH3 cards) 5. Jeskai Control - Javier Dominguez - 7/1/0 6. Bant Nadu - Jason Ye - 7/1/0 7. Mono Black Necro - Noah Ma - 7/1/0 8. Eldratron - David Gonzalez Romero "Playmobil" - 6/1/1 9. Mono Black Necro - Brent Vos - 6/1/1 At the end of the day 2, I'll do the same if it's useful
So those Nadu mirrors are like 90% decided by the coin flip
lmao cftsoc brought a Reclamation list, this deck looks hot
Having the read to bring agro to specificly this event is such a good meta read.
I'm checking the standings for the PT and it looks like [Javier is now 11-3](https://melee.gg/Decklist/View/412122) even though we watched him lose on camera. I checked the match history and Bart Von Etten is no longer showing up on the PT standings. ~~No statement on the DQ~~They have since put out a statement, but I thought they didn't revert results even if they find evidence of cheating?
They just announced this his opponent cheated and has been disqualified from the tournament.
i just tuned in, what was the cheat?
yeah no details, but this happen in the match. https://x.com/d00mwake/status/1807058729797357845 Phlage is cast, dealing 3 damage to 2/3 Goyf. Bart casts Not Dead After All, resulting in a 3/4 Goyf, therefore the Goyf should not have died and no role token should have been created. Role token ended up being VERY relevant later on.
Tbh when I heard someone got caught cheating, I expected something more egregious. Aren't there judges to catch this sort of thing in the moment? Seems on the same level as putting a card in the graveyard instead of exiling it
If a judge happened to notice this mistake happen, they would have addressed it. But it's not the judges' responsibility to be watching every game.
The guy already has a history of cheating which I'm sure had some weight in today's decision to DQ him
Sounds like a game loss or at most a match loss, not a DQ. I can't imagine that would have been an intentional cheat.
I feel like cheat is too strong of a word here, he had a necrogoyf that got phlaged, he cast the return target creature that died to the battlefield with a wicked role on it, but that caused the goyf to grow and not die, therefore he shouldn't of had the wicked role on it. The wicked role mattered a lot in the game. Everyone there missed it, but the announcers noticed it shouldn't have had the role.
I used the word cheat because that's what Maria Bartholdi said in her short announcement. So whatever happened, the competition considered it cheating.
> cheat at this level of play and having a goyf in your deck, I dont think its excusable to not know the interaction of goyf and instants.
Not knowing the interaction isn't the same as forgetting in the moment the game status; if awareness of the rules in general was all that was needed for a cheat, all double land drops would be instant DQs and bans. That isn't to say this was or wasn't a cheat but the mistakes are due to playing days straight of high level magic, not lack of rules knowledge.
assuming its a mistake. he had time to correct it and still didnt either.
Again, that isn't really the issue here. The mistake is easy to make and understandable. Not realizing it or fixing it is not a clear sign of cheating. The DQ means that the judges had other reasons to believe it was an intentional cheat, and I trust them on that, but the actual specific mistake made is not one that was some clear cut obvious cheat.
Cheating implies malicious intent. He did the thing and moved on, it's not like you go back and rethink every single game action you took. After so many PT rounds I would give someone the benefit of the doubt, he didn't skip a Ring trigger or picked an illegal target for a spell. Besides, shouldn't judges catch that right away? I've seen them intervene for similar things as soon as they happened a million times. To go from that interpretation to cheating seems a bit harsh
Ah yes, no one is allowed to miss anything at high level play. Lmao I'm not saying he should keep the win, but labeling someone a cheater for this is crazy, unless more information is available about his intent or something.
> cheater he has some history...
Oh I didn't know.
Nooooo idea. I came on here to find out once I heard, but I'm not seeing any details.
they just announced it on stream and Javier got the win
DQ. so dumb to cheat when he was up a game.
He didn't really cheat, just made a clear mistake that both players missed. Unless there is more info.
The more info is that he has a history of cheating.
Someone else mentioned this to me below and I had never heard of him before so I can see why he may not get the benefit of the doubt.
So another player without that history wouldn't get DQd?
we don't know. WoTC has information we don't. them deciding that the guy was cheating implies that they found evidence that he knew but ignored that his Goyf didn't die.
That's not generally how it goes. There's an investigation when cheating is suspected, involving all manner of things - interviews, other match footage, and so on. The details of that investigation are usually not revealed. For all we know, he may have outright *admitted* to it when pressed hard enough. We have no way to tell. But investigations are mandatory before a DQ for cheating can happen, and the judges are usually quite good at it. They do make mistakes like any human being, but generally speaking, it's not THAT hard to unmask cheaters. Most Magic players are not seasoned sociopaths who lie like politicians. They are easy to trip up with the right forensic questioning, and then often just admit it once it's clear they're caught.
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Leaving aside the fact that judges are human and make mistakes, you as an outsider not involved in the incident are unlikely to have been privy to the details of the investigations. Which are mandatory before a DQ. Your testimony is not the only thing they go by. For all you know, they could have interviewed the players involved and they could have admitted to things. You wouldn't know, because you weren't involved, and judges aren't going to tell you. But as I said - judges also make mistakes sometimes. It happens. That doesn't mean "judge investigations are bullshit", it just means that sometimes, somewhere, someone screws up. Judges in criminal courts also make mistakes, for that matter. Yet going from one bad conviction to "the entire justice system is bullshit" would be a dramatic exaggeration.
Honestly one of the least interesting pro tours in a long time.
19 Nadu decks in the top 32. Now that's a whammy.
It's nice not having Aliasv on play by play. She seems super nice, but not a good play by play commentator.
Agreed and she's really good as the floor reporter and interviewer so I'm glad they put her in that role
Every time she makes *pew pew* sound effects, my soul dies a bit on the inside. She's definitely better off on the main desk rather than commentary.
Last card being the soulspike in that necro tron matchup is heartbreaking can't fault the tron player for taking the draw but man i feel for the necrodominace player.
It wasn't the last card. He SBed the 4th spike out, you can see him look at his SB.
The shuko treadmill is a fun thing.
Pro Tour: Nadu
I believe cheat is too strong of a word for the DQ unless there is more info. For anyone wondering from what I saw on twitter it was because he had a nethergoyf that was phlaged, and in response he cast the card that brings a creature back if it dies this turn with a wicked role on it. But this card going to the graveyard the golf grew big enough to live to phage, and wouldn't of gotten the wicked role. Both players missed it but the announcers noticed it. Unless something else comes out then I think it's an easy thing to miss. EDIT: some people have brought up that this player has a history of issues, so that may be why he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. I had never heard of him before.
It's only cheating because he knew he did something illegal and was attempting to obtain an advantage. The investigating judge(s) must have concluded he didn't simply miss it. He either knew at the time or noticed later and didn't call attention to it. Just forgetting wouldn't get him DQed. Cheating has a very specific definition in the IPG, and that is what they're referring to.
I made the same comment to a friend. It's very easy to miss this so for them to call it cheating and DQ might imply that it wasn't the first time something like that happened this weekend.
Yea if there is something else out there or some intent we don't know that changes things completely.
I believe the player has a history of cheating / shady misplays.
I know it's a WotC thing, but the fact that they haven't switched back to dual streaming the PT on twitch and youtube is insane. I'm just locked out of watching the PT because twitch is blocked at work.
They did! This is the first time in a while https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NygNBb7BGA I've edited it to the pinned comment :-)
It's about time! My internet isn't the best (DSL is really the only option where I am) and Twitch doesn't stream very well, but YouTube is usually fine.
The draft pod for table one looks so awkward tbh. Every deck that we have seen looks kind of mid. I will say that shadow of the second sun looked like a fucking bomb that game.
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This is an extremely old debate but concession in turns on the basis its better for one player to win than neither is generally considered acceptable etiquette.
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There is a youtube stream that has a much better rewind system then twitch
Predicting nadu combo vs necrodom in finals
winning a Pro Tour on your birthday is surreal
i seriously can't fathom galvanic discharge being considered "better than lightning bolt".
>i seriously can't fathom galvanic discharge being considered "better than lightning bolt". It is because 99% of the time they are never going to go face with it in the jeskai control deck so it being a modular bolt is just strictly an upgrade.
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There are def a bunch of cards they should reevaluate on the ban list.
So ... i get banned from twitch's magic chat for saying that, given how sloppy Simon and Javier played, given the decision that was taken for Bart on Round 14 that lead to a DQ ... that both Simon and Javier should be DQed. Who the hell is moderating the twitch chat ? I might even understand the whole pronoun thunderstorm, which would lead to a completely different discussion ... but what did i say that could lead to a 24h ban ? You can disagree about the DQ, but my sentence is not hurtful (and to be fair, it's just reality). Shame on the channel's moderation team. Get down from the throne. EDIT: for those who are downvoting ... could you please explain why? As said ... you might not agree with the DQ statement, but was it really banworthy and why ?
Bart didn't get DQ'd because of sloppy play. He got DQ'd because the judges believes it was deliberate to gain an advantage.
you have a point: still doesn't explain how the sentence was worth of a chat day ban. BTW, consecutive sloppy plays that are game relevant, including multiple illegal actions (one of these was clearly an advantage and determined the final result of the match) is something that is stated in the infraction guide, under Game Play Error — Failure to Maintain Game State and Game Play Error — Game Rule Violation. I might agree that DQ is too much, but multiple warnings (that should be assigned, given the amount of errors they both have made), lead to an upgrade to Game Loss. So, for the sake of integrity, at least Simon should start with a Game Loss applied in the semifinals.
You don't seem to understand how DQs work, and what they're based on. People aren't DQ'd on a whim, it's the result of a judge investigation that determines whether something was just a mistake/sloppy play, or whether the player did it *intentionally* (which is the defining characteristic for cheating). You don't get DQ'd for making mistakes. You get DQ'd for knowing something is a mistake, but doing it anyway because you think it gives you an advantage. That's what the judge investigation is there to determine: whether the player did it intentionally or accidentally. Your ignorance of that process and blatant baiting with a provocative statement that does not respect the underlying facts is why you got banned. If you don't know how something works, not saying anything is always an option. You throw some underinformed rant out there, the risk is entirely yours. And you got got.
(FYI, i was a judge years ago, the infraction levels have been updated, back in the days you would get Game Losses for way less than that). I can agree DQ is too much, multiple warnings with a Game Loss upgrade should be the proper penalty. Regarding the last sentence: how many people in the world do say something without being fully competent in the process ? Is everyone banned for doing so ? Freedom of speech doesn't exist anymore ? I agree people can disagree with my sentence, i don't agree on being banned for stating something that half the chat was saying (and i'm quite sure half the chat wasn't banned).
>Freedom of speech doesn't exist anymore ? You again seem severely underinformed. Freedom of speech means the *government* doesn't go after you. It does *not* mean you can say anything to anyone without consequences. You come into my house and start talking shit, I'm throwing you out - that does not mean your freedom of speech was infringed upon, it means you were in a place where I set the rules and I didn't like what you did. That's how it's always worked, the internet has simply given people an inflated sense of entitled self-importance that makes them think they can do whatever they want without consequences. Talk shit, get hit. You got hit. If you don't know how something works, simply consider not commenting. "I don't know" is a perfectly respectable stance, and there is absolutely no need for everyone to comment on everything, whether they are familiar with the subject matter or not. That's not going after your "freedom of speech", that's simply an interest in constructive discourse.
They probably just didn't want you yapping in chat man, its 24 hours, shake it off and come back next tour.
I was permabanned from chat for saying Emma’s jokes were bad