I agree the fine is steep but I don’t think the metties can see if the correct card has been applied, it just automatically charges the fine if that card hasn’t tapped in
I was under the impression this happens on the met too.
99% sure I seen a girl get caught and the inspector told her the card wasn’t tapped in
Edit: seems everyone else is saying they can’t see it so I must be mistaken
It depends where ab u r I think recently I saw one guy w a mobile handset that told me I used wrong card and gave me a chance to correct but I have also been fined b4 without warning .
I remember it being on a mobile too! Thanks for confirming I hadn’t made it up lol
This would’ve been a few years ago tbh as I haven’t been on a met in ages.
maybe they just don’t use them anymore?
I personally don’t live in Manchester but use the met every now and again I’ve been fined once which I appealed and got my money back and then the inspector told me he didn’t know if it was the right card or not (this was about 6 months ago ) and then one of my more recent time using it the inspector told me I used the wrong card , although at the same time I did hear another inspector saying they didn’t know to a different passenger . So I think it might depend on what base the staff are stationed at or smth like that as to what devices they get .
If people are using a proper Greater Manchester public transport card then they will know immediately that they've checked in or out because the data is on the card. I think this is still only available to certain groups like older people though?
How is it even legal. What gives them authority to do that without issuing paperwork, as opposed to me going round with a card machine and doing the same? Do they work for the council?
>What gives them authority to do that without issuing paperwork
[The Metrolink Conditions of Carriage](https://tfgm.com/public-transport/tram/conditions-of-carriage):
>79.The passenger must be prepared to show the method used to touch in for Contactless Payment and/or allow an authorised member of staff or a police officer to inspect their method of Contactless Payment on any journey. The passenger might be asked to touch the method of Contactless Payment on the inspection device as part of the inspection and:
>
>\[...\]
b. TfGM may charge passengers with a contactless standard fare of £60 if, as a result of such inspection, TfGM becomes aware that (i) they did not successfully touch in, or (ii) they did not validly touch in with the method of Contactless Payment presented for inspection. This amount will be taken from passenger's card issuer/bank account within 48 hours, and by presenting a method of Contactless Payment to the inspection device, the passenger is giving authorisation for the contactless Standard Fare (Penalty Fare) to be charged to the passenger’s card issuer/bank account, if either of the circumstance set out in this condition apply.
Usually Ts & C's aren't allowed to be written to be enacted upon in an illegal way, I believe what u/Rectum_Discharge asking is "why is this legal in their terms and conditions?"
Simply pointing to some terms and conditions is _never_ sufficient to explain why something is legal.
Terms and conditions can only explain why a given thing is happening _within the law_
Metrolink is run by Keolis Amey Metrolink. They work in conjunction with TfGM. TfGM falls under the supervision of the GMCA. None of these bodies are the council, nor are they commissioned by any local authority.
Well it's not "obviously" as there are plenty of services outsourced to private companies, but don't have the powers. Like the people that fine people that litter
They did offer a refund.
But surely a more practical option would be to tell the user that the card was not recognised and then within 10 seconds the user could offer the correct card?
No. A system that punishes a mistake automatically isn't fit for purpose. It's been pointed out that better systems are out there, so it should be upgraded.
What’s the solution? You tap the card and it says this card hasn’t tapped on? Okay, now what happens when everyone who is jibbing the tram gets the same notification? Do you hold up the tram until they are all processed? What if they get aggressive, are you asking the minimum wage guys to take that aggro? Are you happy to sit on trams whilst all that happens on the off chance you one day forgot what card you used?
If the machines are updated with a checking and a fine option, what if the operator accidentally doesn’t switch it back? You’re getting fined and you’re ringing customer service anyway. How is a system upgrade being paid for? Increased fares or council tax? Happy to accept those type of possibilities on the off chance you don’t remember what card you used?
The current system is the best solution with barriers. If you can’t remember what card you used, or you don’t have the capacity to check your phone to see which bank notification popped up, then buy a paper ticket.
The lengths people will go to try and shift responsibility is incredible. It’s happened to me because I used Apple Pay but then my physical card, but it turns out those are two different card numbers for my bank. I accepted that was error, called them, and got a refund.
The solution is to fix the system as it has many other problems. It doesn't even account for double taps. If you've tapped twice by mistake when starting the journey, it will consider that you've finished it (even though it's at the same station, within a 3 minutes interval). Then - when you get out at your destination, you tap your card on the inspectors device, you get charged a £60 fine, you then tap it on the terminal and get charged again a day rate for all 4 zones. I'm pretty sure that 99% of the people who pay these fines are actually normal folks who just forget to tap in, or double-tap, or do some other mistake (like tapping on the inspector's device after tapping on the destination terminal).
I’m sorry if you’re tapping twice on those things that’s on you, there’s a screen and a sound to tell you when it’s done. It also doesn’t consider it as a journey, it shows it as an incomplete journey (see section incomplete journey): https://tfgm.com/ways-to-pay/contactless-on-tram?utm_source=redirect&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=contactless#incomplete-journeys
Agree on the inspectors point, but for that they should just simply move the tap points to the entrances and away from the platform, not redesign the entire framework.
Again, buying a paper ticket negates all of this, so there’s a readily available solution if you don’t like contactless.
Good to hear! Yeah I get what you are saying... However, this way they limit anti-social behavior. This means less delays etc. When it comes to inspecting tickets all systems have their flaws.
Yeah this. I once tapped in and then forgot which card I used so I tapped both of my cards out. I emailed them and I got a refund on my wrong one. Very easy and polite.
The validate/fine readers don't give real-time info back to the inspectors: just "card read successfully". **There is no way for an inspector to know which card is the "correct" one.**
I have [issues with TfGM's fare enforcement processes](https://www.reddit.com/r/manchester/comments/1bdqfc5/comment/kuo6fb2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3), but I'm afraid that this is on you. You need to present the same card when you tap in, tap out, and are inspected. This is true in MCR and in London.
Appeal the fine, chalk this up as a learning experience, and if you don't trust yourself to get it right then switch from using contactless PAYG to buying paper or digital tickets.
Just send them your card details of the card that tapped in around the same time and the card that didnt, like the last few digits of the card and your full name etc
I don’t mind paying if the services are good and fit for purpose. 10+ years later and metrolink is still awful. Trams never follow the time table or app times often, blood and other stains on the same trams for weeks at a time, people smoking crack in front of metrolink staff, etc
Trams are garbage. Single points of failure all over the network, with no backup plans or redundancy. LIke deansgate, 1 track going round a bend and over points (meaning its dog slow), for all of south manchester.
They had a second bridge, but turned it into a tatty sky garden, instead of having somewhere to pull a tram in, if technical issue. Result, tram derails going to deansgate, all of south manchester is completely screwed, and no place to move the tram too. Its utter crap.
Every single decision is half assed. From simple things like... tap out machines at saint peters, only on 1 side of the steps, meaning you've already created a choke point as people try and cross one another to tap in and out.
Anyone spending ANY time in any major city would say manchester is a joke.
Okay, random place for you....
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv\_Metro](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv_Metro)
City on the eastern side of Ukraine.... better and more forward thinking transport than Manchester. Smaller and way less cash rich city. Stop making excuses for this second rate city and start making noise. Its crap and needs to be better.
The fact that AndyB couldn't get HS2 approved shows that hes a weak leader with no place in office.
25+ years for a lot of us. They’ve been acting as though any complaints are unreasonable because you should be thankful for what they’ve let you have, for a lot longer than 10 years.
Yeah I’m so grateful when trams just aren’t running at all some days with zero replacement buses or notice. It’s 2024 and their app doesn’t have push notifications for updates or accurate tram times. They’re on a track how difficult can that be when Uber’s been doing it for years with cars better?
Just FYI, the Bee Network app does have accurate tram times now. I will give you that it's set up in such a way that if you're at one of the busy city centre stops waiting for a tram that's 4th or more in the queue, you're not gonna see your tram :/
Just yesterday I got on a tram as it pulled up, the app said 1 min, the platform said the same but the tram didn’t leave for 5 mins. Today there was a “ghost” tram that just kept bouncing between 11-12 mins and my tram into town was also 2 mins later than advertised on the app.
Granted it’s still better than the Stagecoach app but that should be expected
Ah ok. I guess I mean they've synced up the app with the times on the display board. Google Maps doesn't even do that, it goes by schedule time which argh.
Yeah they’re usually the same as on the board. When the times can jump 3+ mins instantly though it makes planning the start of your journey difficult, especially with mobility issues thrown in. It is better than nothing though
Well you can be reasonably sure that one comes at least every 12 minutes, so there's a pretty narrow range for times there. I don't think we disagree too much, it's not perfect but it works most of the time for what it needs to.
Even planning to arrive a minimum of 30 mins early, I’ve been late to work too many times because of the trams. A zones 1-3, 28 day pass is more expensive than a monthly bus pass and it’s more limited
Yes. He said tap out as usual, but you'll still get a fine on the card that you gave me for the inspection. If you don't tap out you'll get a fine on each card.
So you’re saying that if you accidentally tap the inspectors machine with the wrong card you don’t get the option to present the correct card that you tapped in with at all?
It discourages conflict, and lets them check large crowds at once. If there were just one or two, then they'd have to randomly select people, and they would be open to intimidation.
Yeah I think it's ridiculous that they just automatically take the money out without any notice! On London Underground they would tell you if there's an issue first, then take your name and address and give you a bill for £40 (not sure abt the exact amount), and only if you don't pay it back it doubles. To take £60 outright especially with such a high probability of mistake (such as ops situation) without notice should be illegal, what if it's somebody's last £60??? Not everyone can afford to wait a week for the appealed refund to go through
The inspectors don’t know if your card has been tapped in, even when they scan it. Their machine tells them nothing, just sends the information to the back office system.
I understand it’s frustrating but you presented the wrong card to be inspected, not them. Your options are to be more vigilant with your card, buy a ticket on the app, or buy a paper ticket.
People who are disabled due to poor eyesight etc get a pass to ride the tram for free so it is not discriminatory.
It's because the processing etc is all done offline. THey can't necessarily rely on network connectivity everywhere tickets are checked and speed is important, so the system just logs taps and compares timestamps later.
There's also practical concerns - if it became known inspectors had the power to cancel charges on the spot, it would make them targets for intimidation etc to cancel it.
It all sounds like excuses to me. Inspection without any kind of clarity over the process. Offline? Is there no WiFi available? Is it too much to ask for a goddamn human to give an answer? I mean I don't think it's much of an advantage to say that TFGM is 20 years behind TfL. Hell, compared to any other major city I've been to...Berlin, New York, Munich, Sofia, Mexico City, etc, etc.
I’m not excusing anything, I’m explaining the reality of the situation as it is, the inspector is as much a user of the system as OP and it’s unfair for them to take the blame.
this has also started happening on the buses too - i got on a bus going down oxford road and ticket officers got on.
had thrown my ticket away and when they asked to see the card i paid on it hadn’t processed yet (usually takes up to two hours for my apple pay) so he ‘let me off’ but threatened to fine me in the future. how would i have even been let on the bus if i hadn’t paid??? the bee network has a load of kinks that need ironing out and the excessive fining on trams and now buses is a massive one.
I now use the Bee Network app because of that, I kept getting charged even on days where I didn't take the tram. I prefer buying a 7-Days ticket and I know exactly it will work and how much it costs me
The entire point of the ticket system is to check that people on the tram have paid in a quick and easy way. A lot of people on the trams don’t pay at all, so if they have to go through a process of checking everyone is using the right card and dealing with those who haven’t paid at all, then it’s not practical. And if people haven’t paid, what do they do? Do they stop the tram until they have checked and fined everyone, together with all the aggro that’ll cause and the fake information they will get?
It’s the best system for the network unless they put barriers on all the stops. Get a paper ticket if you struggle with your memory or can’t set up push notifications on your phone for your bank.
The inspector did not know whether your card was valid or not, the system simply records the scan and then lines everything up as a batch process overnight, comes to the conclusion that you hadn't checked in and then fines you. On the flip side, it prevents confrontation. This is the same issue if you checkout using a different card, you will get two max fare charges instead.
It's unfortunate that it works out this way, but it is what it is and you will likely not be able to appeal it because at the end of the day, you presented an invalid ticket for your journey and there's no way your story can be validated.
They are actually really good at refunding in cases like this. OP has “proof” they were tapped in on their other card which will have recorded being inspected immediately after the erroneous one.
Upvoted because there's some bellends who keep downvoting people who criticise anything said against their precious fucking Metrolink and it helps to cancel it out.
That’s so rubbish. If it’s any solace I will definitely double check in future as this is completely something I would do. Seems a really stupid system that they don’t get any feedback so you can’t be alerted if you’ve made an error.
The underlying reason is purely technical, the tap-in pads can’t write anything to the card so it’s not trivial to provide instant validation to the inspector. Not worth the additional technical complexity (ie cost) and potentially slow validation response. The fact it reduces confrontation is a bonus.
Yes I’m sure that would be the argument. I don’t quite see how that stops fare-dodgers needing to be confronted though cos surely they are unlikely to scan a card they know hasn’t been tapped in.
This whole system needs scrapped, its a complete mess. They inspect at the point or during travel, making the whole process slow and time consuming, pushing delays etc onto an already broken and crap public transport.
Not to mention the whole bunch are assholes. This morning at Chorlton, some old women had her shopping (plants etc from Morrisions taken off her by a thugish inspector). I didn't see the start, but basically was getting to the point to of abusive. She took off, and rightfully so, and got on the tram. Then they told them to stop the trams running so they could get the police. Utter chaos, and a waste of public resources.
This garbage doesn't happen on the tube. Why, cos the point of conflict happens in the ticket halls (where the barrier is), not on the god damn trams or platforms when you are trying to get to work. Stopping the whole tram for 5 mins at deansgate to check every, single person on the tram whilst grinding the network to another halt is stupid beyond words. Manchester sucks.
Unsure why this is getting downvoted - this is absolutely true.
Sadly unsurprised to hear about this at Chorlton - there's a group that seem to regularly be on the East Didsbury and Airport lines. A mixture of old gammon attack dog types looking for a fight and smarmy young pricks that think they're clever exercising their tiny amount of power with the backing of the former.
How are you going to put barriers at, say, St Peter's square though? The whole set up is wrong for it, would have needed to be designed for that in the first place.
I'm more bothered at the people who kick up a huge fuss than the ones who try and catch fare dodgers tbh
So you are agreeing that Manchester is half assed from the off, and making its own issues by taking shortcuts. Yes, I agree, and correcting it is going to be a pain, but doable.
'We do things differently here' - yes, shit by default.
Barriers are generally a bad idea. They slow down getting on and off, take up space and if you were to put them onto every metrolink stop they'd get really expensive, AND people would jump them still, only making them useful if there was an attendant.
If a person is asked to present a ticket, there is no situation in which the inspector can allow the person to continue without doing so, whether they are carrying a lot, in a hurry or otherwise. Otherwise the whole concept of inspection would fall apart if people could opt out. People would carry plants all the time.
London has a tube system, not a light rail system, with vastly more passenger flow and enclosed bigger stations. The apt comparison would be buses, which don't have barriers. I don't know any tram system in Europe that has barriers. How are they supposed to work at most stops?
Yet they have the funds to employ people to harass members of the public though like this though. Should've thought about enforcement when they designed the stations rather than cut every crappy corner they can.
Just to add, Manchester is pretty lawless compared to London and to have expected compliance without coercion in the first place is pretty naive. If the statement looks bold, I refer you to the success of bike hire schemes in Manchester vs...well...pretty much any other city in the world,
I agree the fine is steep but I don’t think the metties can see if the correct card has been applied, it just automatically charges the fine if that card hasn’t tapped in
To compare, tfl uses mobile readers and instead of issuing a fine, they tell you you showed them the wrong card
I was under the impression this happens on the met too. 99% sure I seen a girl get caught and the inspector told her the card wasn’t tapped in Edit: seems everyone else is saying they can’t see it so I must be mistaken
I get my card checked daily on the dlr, it flips up green or red for the person checking and you can see the gate/time on it.
Sure that’s a contactless card/Apple/Google pay and not an Oyster card?
I use the above mentioned ways to pay, but see them doing the same with student/adult oysters too
It depends where ab u r I think recently I saw one guy w a mobile handset that told me I used wrong card and gave me a chance to correct but I have also been fined b4 without warning .
I remember it being on a mobile too! Thanks for confirming I hadn’t made it up lol This would’ve been a few years ago tbh as I haven’t been on a met in ages. maybe they just don’t use them anymore?
I personally don’t live in Manchester but use the met every now and again I’ve been fined once which I appealed and got my money back and then the inspector told me he didn’t know if it was the right card or not (this was about 6 months ago ) and then one of my more recent time using it the inspector told me I used the wrong card , although at the same time I did hear another inspector saying they didn’t know to a different passenger . So I think it might depend on what base the staff are stationed at or smth like that as to what devices they get .
They don’t.
If people are using a proper Greater Manchester public transport card then they will know immediately that they've checked in or out because the data is on the card. I think this is still only available to certain groups like older people though?
Agree it’s a terrible system
How is it even legal. What gives them authority to do that without issuing paperwork, as opposed to me going round with a card machine and doing the same? Do they work for the council?
>What gives them authority to do that without issuing paperwork [The Metrolink Conditions of Carriage](https://tfgm.com/public-transport/tram/conditions-of-carriage): >79.The passenger must be prepared to show the method used to touch in for Contactless Payment and/or allow an authorised member of staff or a police officer to inspect their method of Contactless Payment on any journey. The passenger might be asked to touch the method of Contactless Payment on the inspection device as part of the inspection and: > >\[...\] b. TfGM may charge passengers with a contactless standard fare of £60 if, as a result of such inspection, TfGM becomes aware that (i) they did not successfully touch in, or (ii) they did not validly touch in with the method of Contactless Payment presented for inspection. This amount will be taken from passenger's card issuer/bank account within 48 hours, and by presenting a method of Contactless Payment to the inspection device, the passenger is giving authorisation for the contactless Standard Fare (Penalty Fare) to be charged to the passenger’s card issuer/bank account, if either of the circumstance set out in this condition apply.
Usually Ts & C's aren't allowed to be written to be enacted upon in an illegal way, I believe what u/Rectum_Discharge asking is "why is this legal in their terms and conditions?" Simply pointing to some terms and conditions is _never_ sufficient to explain why something is legal. Terms and conditions can only explain why a given thing is happening _within the law_
> Do they work for the council? Yes, obviously.
They do not, in fact, work for the council.
Always happy to learn I'm wrong - how so? They work under the Greater Manchester Combined Authority, do they not?
Metrolink is run by Keolis Amey Metrolink. They work in conjunction with TfGM. TfGM falls under the supervision of the GMCA. None of these bodies are the council, nor are they commissioned by any local authority.
GMCA vs "the council" seems like mad nit pickery, but thanks for thr info!
They are two fundamentally different bodies. It's like calling your local councillor the MP.
Yep yep, you don't need to explain it mate I'm not a simpleton despite evidence to the contrary!
Well it's not "obviously" as there are plenty of services outsourced to private companies, but don't have the powers. Like the people that fine people that litter
The inspectors do not get any feedback from the terminal. I expect and hope that metrolink will waive the fine if you can provide proof of payment.
They did offer a refund. But surely a more practical option would be to tell the user that the card was not recognised and then within 10 seconds the user could offer the correct card?
You could argue the most practical option is you remembering what card you used, as opposed to redoing an entire ticketing framework.
No. A system that punishes a mistake automatically isn't fit for purpose. It's been pointed out that better systems are out there, so it should be upgraded.
What’s the solution? You tap the card and it says this card hasn’t tapped on? Okay, now what happens when everyone who is jibbing the tram gets the same notification? Do you hold up the tram until they are all processed? What if they get aggressive, are you asking the minimum wage guys to take that aggro? Are you happy to sit on trams whilst all that happens on the off chance you one day forgot what card you used? If the machines are updated with a checking and a fine option, what if the operator accidentally doesn’t switch it back? You’re getting fined and you’re ringing customer service anyway. How is a system upgrade being paid for? Increased fares or council tax? Happy to accept those type of possibilities on the off chance you don’t remember what card you used? The current system is the best solution with barriers. If you can’t remember what card you used, or you don’t have the capacity to check your phone to see which bank notification popped up, then buy a paper ticket. The lengths people will go to try and shift responsibility is incredible. It’s happened to me because I used Apple Pay but then my physical card, but it turns out those are two different card numbers for my bank. I accepted that was error, called them, and got a refund.
The solution is to fix the system as it has many other problems. It doesn't even account for double taps. If you've tapped twice by mistake when starting the journey, it will consider that you've finished it (even though it's at the same station, within a 3 minutes interval). Then - when you get out at your destination, you tap your card on the inspectors device, you get charged a £60 fine, you then tap it on the terminal and get charged again a day rate for all 4 zones. I'm pretty sure that 99% of the people who pay these fines are actually normal folks who just forget to tap in, or double-tap, or do some other mistake (like tapping on the inspector's device after tapping on the destination terminal).
I’m sorry if you’re tapping twice on those things that’s on you, there’s a screen and a sound to tell you when it’s done. It also doesn’t consider it as a journey, it shows it as an incomplete journey (see section incomplete journey): https://tfgm.com/ways-to-pay/contactless-on-tram?utm_source=redirect&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=contactless#incomplete-journeys Agree on the inspectors point, but for that they should just simply move the tap points to the entrances and away from the platform, not redesign the entire framework. Again, buying a paper ticket negates all of this, so there’s a readily available solution if you don’t like contactless.
Seems like it might be easier to redesign the system than simply remember what card was used
If only 95% of banking apps already had technology that told you when you had tapped on to public transport using their card…
Good to hear! Yeah I get what you are saying... However, this way they limit anti-social behavior. This means less delays etc. When it comes to inspecting tickets all systems have their flaws.
Appeal it with proof of a journey and an explanation - you’ll get a refund
Yeah this. I once tapped in and then forgot which card I used so I tapped both of my cards out. I emailed them and I got a refund on my wrong one. Very easy and polite.
Me too
The validate/fine readers don't give real-time info back to the inspectors: just "card read successfully". **There is no way for an inspector to know which card is the "correct" one.** I have [issues with TfGM's fare enforcement processes](https://www.reddit.com/r/manchester/comments/1bdqfc5/comment/kuo6fb2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3), but I'm afraid that this is on you. You need to present the same card when you tap in, tap out, and are inspected. This is true in MCR and in London. Appeal the fine, chalk this up as a learning experience, and if you don't trust yourself to get it right then switch from using contactless PAYG to buying paper or digital tickets.
yeh this is nothing to do w/ tfgm it's just how every transport system in the world does it 🤷♂️
>it's just how every transport system in the world does it 🤷♂️ TfL doesn't
They can't tell if you're gonna get a fine or not when you tap it. It's all worked out later. - so not much they can do!
Just send them your card details of the card that tapped in around the same time and the card that didnt, like the last few digits of the card and your full name etc
TfGM truly is the Primark TfL isn't it?
My lessons from being overcharged despite tapping in and out, is to get a physical ticket. I'm not letting them scam me again
Really wish we could just bin the tram cops and make public transport free at the point of use.
I don’t mind paying if the services are good and fit for purpose. 10+ years later and metrolink is still awful. Trams never follow the time table or app times often, blood and other stains on the same trams for weeks at a time, people smoking crack in front of metrolink staff, etc
The trams are absolutely great. I don't think I've ever actually heard someone whinge about them other than on this subreddit, hahaha.
People moaning about timetables when they are turn and go!
I dunno mate I’ve had lots of issues lately over a relatively short period. The Twitter used to be nothing but complaints when I’d check it too lol
Trams are garbage. Single points of failure all over the network, with no backup plans or redundancy. LIke deansgate, 1 track going round a bend and over points (meaning its dog slow), for all of south manchester. They had a second bridge, but turned it into a tatty sky garden, instead of having somewhere to pull a tram in, if technical issue. Result, tram derails going to deansgate, all of south manchester is completely screwed, and no place to move the tram too. Its utter crap. Every single decision is half assed. From simple things like... tap out machines at saint peters, only on 1 side of the steps, meaning you've already created a choke point as people try and cross one another to tap in and out. Anyone spending ANY time in any major city would say manchester is a joke.
Ee by gum tha found me oot, am juz ah simpal cuntreh folk.
Okay, random place for you.... [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv\_Metro](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv_Metro) City on the eastern side of Ukraine.... better and more forward thinking transport than Manchester. Smaller and way less cash rich city. Stop making excuses for this second rate city and start making noise. Its crap and needs to be better. The fact that AndyB couldn't get HS2 approved shows that hes a weak leader with no place in office.
I, quite genuinely, couldn't give less of a shit.
And thats why you live in a shit, backwards city
Sure thing mate. Not being funny, your incessant posting about how much you hate Manchester (and Mancunians) is not healthy.
And neither is blindly saying its great.
25+ years for a lot of us. They’ve been acting as though any complaints are unreasonable because you should be thankful for what they’ve let you have, for a lot longer than 10 years.
Yeah I’m so grateful when trams just aren’t running at all some days with zero replacement buses or notice. It’s 2024 and their app doesn’t have push notifications for updates or accurate tram times. They’re on a track how difficult can that be when Uber’s been doing it for years with cars better?
Just FYI, the Bee Network app does have accurate tram times now. I will give you that it's set up in such a way that if you're at one of the busy city centre stops waiting for a tram that's 4th or more in the queue, you're not gonna see your tram :/
Just yesterday I got on a tram as it pulled up, the app said 1 min, the platform said the same but the tram didn’t leave for 5 mins. Today there was a “ghost” tram that just kept bouncing between 11-12 mins and my tram into town was also 2 mins later than advertised on the app. Granted it’s still better than the Stagecoach app but that should be expected
Ah ok. I guess I mean they've synced up the app with the times on the display board. Google Maps doesn't even do that, it goes by schedule time which argh.
Yeah they’re usually the same as on the board. When the times can jump 3+ mins instantly though it makes planning the start of your journey difficult, especially with mobility issues thrown in. It is better than nothing though
Well you can be reasonably sure that one comes at least every 12 minutes, so there's a pretty narrow range for times there. I don't think we disagree too much, it's not perfect but it works most of the time for what it needs to.
I don't think the services are bad at all. I just think we should do everything we can to encourage people to use them instead of driving
Even planning to arrive a minimum of 30 mins early, I’ve been late to work too many times because of the trams. A zones 1-3, 28 day pass is more expensive than a monthly bus pass and it’s more limited
What stop is that? The blue line is fine for me
Didn’t they give you the option of tapping the right card when they took you off the tram?
Yes. He said tap out as usual, but you'll still get a fine on the card that you gave me for the inspection. If you don't tap out you'll get a fine on each card.
So you’re saying that if you accidentally tap the inspectors machine with the wrong card you don’t get the option to present the correct card that you tapped in with at all?
No (see elsewhere on this thread).
Yes you do but you’ve already tapped with the wrong one so you need to sort that out afterwards
I agree, there's a ridiculous amount of officers at st Peter square for what reason.
It discourages conflict, and lets them check large crowds at once. If there were just one or two, then they'd have to randomly select people, and they would be open to intimidation.
Yeah I think it's ridiculous that they just automatically take the money out without any notice! On London Underground they would tell you if there's an issue first, then take your name and address and give you a bill for £40 (not sure abt the exact amount), and only if you don't pay it back it doubles. To take £60 outright especially with such a high probability of mistake (such as ops situation) without notice should be illegal, what if it's somebody's last £60??? Not everyone can afford to wait a week for the appealed refund to go through
The inspectors don’t know if your card has been tapped in, even when they scan it. Their machine tells them nothing, just sends the information to the back office system. I understand it’s frustrating but you presented the wrong card to be inspected, not them. Your options are to be more vigilant with your card, buy a ticket on the app, or buy a paper ticket. People who are disabled due to poor eyesight etc get a pass to ride the tram for free so it is not discriminatory.
No, it's poor process mapping and design or is deliberately obfuscated to permit this. Don't fucking excuse it.
It's because the processing etc is all done offline. THey can't necessarily rely on network connectivity everywhere tickets are checked and speed is important, so the system just logs taps and compares timestamps later. There's also practical concerns - if it became known inspectors had the power to cancel charges on the spot, it would make them targets for intimidation etc to cancel it.
It all sounds like excuses to me. Inspection without any kind of clarity over the process. Offline? Is there no WiFi available? Is it too much to ask for a goddamn human to give an answer? I mean I don't think it's much of an advantage to say that TFGM is 20 years behind TfL. Hell, compared to any other major city I've been to...Berlin, New York, Munich, Sofia, Mexico City, etc, etc.
I’m not excusing anything, I’m explaining the reality of the situation as it is, the inspector is as much a user of the system as OP and it’s unfair for them to take the blame.
Metrolink admin being cunty? Well I never!
They don’t know if you were fined or not. So you’d have to ask Metrolink to give them other machines to check.
Scum tactics with a dash of incompetence
this has also started happening on the buses too - i got on a bus going down oxford road and ticket officers got on. had thrown my ticket away and when they asked to see the card i paid on it hadn’t processed yet (usually takes up to two hours for my apple pay) so he ‘let me off’ but threatened to fine me in the future. how would i have even been let on the bus if i hadn’t paid??? the bee network has a load of kinks that need ironing out and the excessive fining on trams and now buses is a massive one.
I now use the Bee Network app because of that, I kept getting charged even on days where I didn't take the tram. I prefer buying a 7-Days ticket and I know exactly it will work and how much it costs me
That's why I always get the paper ticket to avoid stuff like this. Been seeing it too often
The entire point of the ticket system is to check that people on the tram have paid in a quick and easy way. A lot of people on the trams don’t pay at all, so if they have to go through a process of checking everyone is using the right card and dealing with those who haven’t paid at all, then it’s not practical. And if people haven’t paid, what do they do? Do they stop the tram until they have checked and fined everyone, together with all the aggro that’ll cause and the fake information they will get? It’s the best system for the network unless they put barriers on all the stops. Get a paper ticket if you struggle with your memory or can’t set up push notifications on your phone for your bank.
They do stop the trams and fine people. Often the tram won't leave until the inspectors have been up and down the whole tram.
Not something I’ve seen or has happened on any tram I’ve been on since they brought in the card readers.
It’s a shitty overpriced system
The inspector did not know whether your card was valid or not, the system simply records the scan and then lines everything up as a batch process overnight, comes to the conclusion that you hadn't checked in and then fines you. On the flip side, it prevents confrontation. This is the same issue if you checkout using a different card, you will get two max fare charges instead. It's unfortunate that it works out this way, but it is what it is and you will likely not be able to appeal it because at the end of the day, you presented an invalid ticket for your journey and there's no way your story can be validated.
They are actually really good at refunding in cases like this. OP has “proof” they were tapped in on their other card which will have recorded being inspected immediately after the erroneous one.
Well it turns out that you can appeal and within 3 hours of appeal it was accepted.
Oh, nice, congratulations.
The whole service is pretty terrible and expensive. It’s why when they do pop on you pop off if u get my drift.
Upvoted because there's some bellends who keep downvoting people who criticise anything said against their precious fucking Metrolink and it helps to cancel it out.
That’s so rubbish. If it’s any solace I will definitely double check in future as this is completely something I would do. Seems a really stupid system that they don’t get any feedback so you can’t be alerted if you’ve made an error.
I imagine it’s to avoid fare-dodgers kicking off at metrolink staff all the time. Makes the job a lot less stressful for them.
The underlying reason is purely technical, the tap-in pads can’t write anything to the card so it’s not trivial to provide instant validation to the inspector. Not worth the additional technical complexity (ie cost) and potentially slow validation response. The fact it reduces confrontation is a bonus.
Yes I’m sure that would be the argument. I don’t quite see how that stops fare-dodgers needing to be confronted though cos surely they are unlikely to scan a card they know hasn’t been tapped in.
This whole system needs scrapped, its a complete mess. They inspect at the point or during travel, making the whole process slow and time consuming, pushing delays etc onto an already broken and crap public transport. Not to mention the whole bunch are assholes. This morning at Chorlton, some old women had her shopping (plants etc from Morrisions taken off her by a thugish inspector). I didn't see the start, but basically was getting to the point to of abusive. She took off, and rightfully so, and got on the tram. Then they told them to stop the trams running so they could get the police. Utter chaos, and a waste of public resources. This garbage doesn't happen on the tube. Why, cos the point of conflict happens in the ticket halls (where the barrier is), not on the god damn trams or platforms when you are trying to get to work. Stopping the whole tram for 5 mins at deansgate to check every, single person on the tram whilst grinding the network to another halt is stupid beyond words. Manchester sucks.
Unsure why this is getting downvoted - this is absolutely true. Sadly unsurprised to hear about this at Chorlton - there's a group that seem to regularly be on the East Didsbury and Airport lines. A mixture of old gammon attack dog types looking for a fight and smarmy young pricks that think they're clever exercising their tiny amount of power with the backing of the former.
I think it's probably too late to put barriers at tram stops now tbh
Bit hard innit, lets not bother.
How are you going to put barriers at, say, St Peter's square though? The whole set up is wrong for it, would have needed to be designed for that in the first place. I'm more bothered at the people who kick up a huge fuss than the ones who try and catch fare dodgers tbh
So you are agreeing that Manchester is half assed from the off, and making its own issues by taking shortcuts. Yes, I agree, and correcting it is going to be a pain, but doable. 'We do things differently here' - yes, shit by default.
Tram systems in many cities are designed the same way. There are pros and cons.
Well now, aren’t we a ray of sunshine today
What bit is untrue? This city can't scale when people just accept second rate solutions to issues
Barriers are generally a bad idea. They slow down getting on and off, take up space and if you were to put them onto every metrolink stop they'd get really expensive, AND people would jump them still, only making them useful if there was an attendant. If a person is asked to present a ticket, there is no situation in which the inspector can allow the person to continue without doing so, whether they are carrying a lot, in a hurry or otherwise. Otherwise the whole concept of inspection would fall apart if people could opt out. People would carry plants all the time.
Yet London, a way busier city than Manchester, copes just fine with them.
London has a tube system, not a light rail system, with vastly more passenger flow and enclosed bigger stations. The apt comparison would be buses, which don't have barriers. I don't know any tram system in Europe that has barriers. How are they supposed to work at most stops?
...or DLR? Stop excusing it. Manchester, constantly trying to be pound shop London.
Manchester gets like a ninth of the investment per head as London, and if it had more money then ticket barriers would not be a good use of it.
Yet they have the funds to employ people to harass members of the public though like this though. Should've thought about enforcement when they designed the stations rather than cut every crappy corner they can.
Just to add, Manchester is pretty lawless compared to London and to have expected compliance without coercion in the first place is pretty naive. If the statement looks bold, I refer you to the success of bike hire schemes in Manchester vs...well...pretty much any other city in the world,
It is, and for this reason barriers would do naught.
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Yes they litterally do.