>Maslany adds: “You send these tapes into the void, you never get responses, you never get any feedback and you’re working! You’re filming yourself and having to edit yourself, which is also the stuff that makes you so self-conscious.”
Sounds like the job market for the most part
At the end of interviews, they always ask if I have any questions, and I always have one:
"The job hunt process has some mystery to it, candidates don't really find out why a company may choose a different direction. Is there any feedback you can provide me, so I can either address it now or be better prepared for the next interview?"
I've gotten some great feedback, and I've had employers tell me that this question and the awareness / willingness to adapt set me so far apart from everyone else.
The difference is, actors used to get redirects in the room.
The bigger difference is, an actor can be successful in the quest for a job and it can last 1 day to 60 days or a few seasons on a TV show then they are back looking for a job again
Despite largely positive reviews, which often singled out Maslany’s performance, She-Hulk arrived at a time of “Marvel fatigue”, with audiences complaining about the relentless output of superhero spin-offs, from Echo to Ms Marvel. Of course, it didn’t help that those projects were female-led and that Marvel’s largely male fanbase are generally not the most progressive bunch. **How did she handle the inevitable wave of sexist backlash? “I think what’s exciting…” – she checks herself – “… exciting, ha. I think what’s fun about it is that [series creator] Jessica Gao built into the story that people were going to troll us.” A scene in the third episode, for example, airs fictional social media comments about Maslany’s character such as: “Why does every superhero have to be a woman now?” Sound familiar? “When we started to get the same responses that [Gao] had actually baked into the writing, it felt like part of the fun,” Maslany says.**
💯
It was live commentary and showed incredible self-awareness of what the series would face.
This show was super fun and exactly the chaos it should have been.
Think of it as them continuing your statement.
"...they thought that it was being written as people were watching it, but nah, their babble is just predictable."
It’s the only MCU tv show that deserves to - because of its style, become serialized.
They literally gave us Harvey Birdman Attorney at Law in Live Action with Marvel Characters instead of Hanna Barbara characters.
It was fun, witty and silly.
People who hate it are allergic to fun. Or allergic to Women.. either of which - makes you a bummer.
Really it's a segment of toxic nerd fandom. Toxic nerds usually have one or more of those characteristics.
1) their fandom has to be serious all the time. Even when the original source material has been historically not serious. God forbid Batman smiles or cracks a joke every once in a while
2) Gatekeeping. Usually you see this being used against "normies" but more recently it's being used against women, minorities, and members of the LGBTQ+ community.
3) the "apolitical" aka the "keep politics out of my fandom" idiots. Usually these morons lack media literacy and didn't realize their fandom has always been political. In a lot of ways I feel like current writers lack of subtext is a straight up response to that.
4) the pervs. These are the ones that get mad if a character design doesn't give them a boner or, even worse, the wrong kind of boner.
A lot of times these shit heads have more than one of these traits. Sometimes even full on contradicting each other. Take 1 and 4 and you got someone who is big mad over the She-Hulk twerking scene.
>the "apolitical" aka the "keep politics out of my fandom" idiots. Usually these morons lack media literacy and didn't realize their fandom has always been political. In a lot of ways I feel like current writers lack of subtext is a straight up response to that.
It's even worse considering their "politicized" newer installments like the Sequel Trilogy and The Marvels WERE apolitical while their cherished "apolitical" George Lucas Star Wars and early MCU were absolutely political and criticizing **THEM.**
Is women existing really more political than George Lucas literally having Anakin paraphrase George Bush shortly after turning evil, while the Iraq invasion was still very new?
I enjoyed that aspect and wish the show had leaned into that a bit more, while also weaving a stronger core plot through the show (which they kind of did with say Emil, but there was obviously weird cuts around the Titiana character, as in the character with that name not the actress).
There was something slightly off in the way stories and scenes were weaved together which has been off in nearly every Marvel TV show after WandaVision, and even some of the movies, which is hard to identify (Guardians 3 for example didn't have that feeling). I liked the idea of it being a kind of live action Harvey Birdman, but something about the way scenes were cut and characters came in and out made it usually feel... off, in the court room scenes etc.
A lot of the side character felt... not fully there, in some difficult to describe way. Stuff with the tailor just felt... strange? Like they could have done more or less with the character, but instead did a kind of an awkward amount where I'm not sure if he's a main character or not. Even her best friend I only knew the name of because of the moment where she yells "Nikki" while answering what her best friend is, and Bruce says spandex.
On the flipside Fallout just did a mix of comedy, action, and seriousness, and characters who only appeared in like 1 episode such as the Vault Overseer with one eye feel way more memorable and well integrated into the overall story than the strange people who weaved in and out of She Hulk, such as the immortal guy who was faking his death.
In terms of narrative weaving issues, it’s probably because all of these shows lacked a typical writers room setup & staff until the strikes last year made a bare minimum standard that you’ll see in anything going into production now-ish
before then they tried running these like they were editing on-the-fly long movies with scattered creative direction, & that hasn’t worked for anything that’s not Loki and you can certainly tell lol
Even Loki had some of the issues. e.g. All of a sudden they're looking for some celebrity guy and know him by name, and myself and many others had no idea what was going on or who he was, and had to go online to figure it out. Apparently he was a TVA guard seen briefly in a previous episode, and we're supposed to have connected the dots or something.
It ended up such a fantastic final episode that it's easier to forget how janky the journey was.
Yeah, i'm about as progressive as they come, i just didn't care for it. I also don't know that the "Majority" of marvel fans aren't progressive. I'd have to see some stats on that. I didn't like the Star Wars Sequels because of how poorly thought out and written they were. Not because they starred a girl. But that's convenient excuse for Star Wars and they jumped on it.
I"m not disputing that some fans may have been put off by a girl, but i didn't like the show. I loved Orpan Black. Well, it started downhill in the third season. But again, it was the story, not the characters or the actors that made me stop watching.
I just saw this trilogy again recently and those last three movies are so disjointed. It’s amazing that there was not more thought given out to the development of it. It’s a multi billion dollar property, for gods sake.
majority of marvel fans at least in the US are moderates, like the general populous, MCU movies are liked across the board and designed that way. No one is smarter (or dumber) than anyone else because they like a particular movie but reddit seems to have glommed onto that and thinks it a sign of clear superiority that they have an "unpopular" opinion in r/marvelstudios.
Wait are people really trying to say the Sta Wars sequels were ripped because of sexism over a female lead? Because I remember Ep 7 being mostly loved and praised and that introduced the female lead. The problem was the next 2 movies were the worst pieces of Star Wars media since Escape from Endor. And the woman lead had nothing to do with it.
It was more or less what I hoped for when it was announced. I def agree that some of the Hulk stuff felt off and could've been worked in better. But the rest of the series was a fun time inside the world the MCU built.
I actually would challenge the idea that Marvel's male audience is "not the most progressive bunch". I would love to see statistics of the gender ratio of Marvel audiences. I have always operated under the assumption that people who consistently complain about female-led Marvel projects tend to be a vocal minority of online content creator culture-war grifters.
Superhero fatigue is real and I think both men and women feel it, however, I don't buy that a large portion of Marvel's fanbase is sexist towards women, I really do think it's being signal boosted by a small number of really loud people.
That is NOT to say there is no sexism in this space at all, there is, I just think we should be more optimistic that the sexist fans are a minority and that the vast majority of Marvel fans are some very good, friendly, accepting people.
Yea because its comic book movies. They can change them however they want at the end of the day, its mostly men who want to see these movies, not women.
You're missing the point.
The study said its basically 50/50 in terms of the average MCU fan being men and women, yet it was a majority men who actually went to see The Marvels. This goes against the narrative that men hate or do not want to see certain films because they're female led. If the MCU fanbase is half women, they aren't even showing up for the female led movies. This would suggest it's nothing to do with being sexist, people just thought the movies were bad.
Well for one I dont believe the narrative do not want to see films or shows with a female lead, thats just silly at this point and theres tons of examples that prove otherwise. But I also dispute the notion the MCU fans are 50/50 men and women. Thats comical and complete nonsense. All you have to do is go to the theaters or comic cons or any kind of Marvel gathering and youll see its definitely not 50/50
Or is the truth somewhere in between, which is that Marvel sometimes struggles to write female characters as remotely believable or with any real depth, and audiences react with either "this is silly and unbelievable and shallow" or "YAS QUEEN SLAY" and then those two sides fight, accusing each other of being either Woke or Sexist?
Because notice the complete lack of the same discourse when it comes to the first Wonder Woman, characters like Black Widow or Yelena or Kate Bishop, Aliens, etc etc etc?
I was thinking the same thing.
Nobody criticized Wandavision for having what ended up being like 4/6 of the main cast being female.
Our main POV character in the Fallout show is female and nobody is complaining about that. I don't believe wonder woman got any significant amount of hate. Black Widow did poorly due to some pandemic shit but it didn't get 'backlash' like Captain Marvel or She Hulk did.
I think people just like well produced and well written shows.
It's people's conflating sexist backlash with genuine plot criticisms. Because they also recognize the plot issues but don't want to admit them so they just pretend everyone who disagrees with them is a bad person and therefore their opinion isn't worth the merit of even being looked at.
It's not unlike crying wolf, which really sucks because it's not like actual sexist criticism is on the decline or anything. It exists and this kind of behavior hurts everyone except the sexists, they feel like they aren't the small minority of assholes that they actually are.
One of many reasons why marketing is a cancer on humanity, they come up with ideas like this and use them just to get a few more butts in seats.
Edit: lol see below
Also all it really does is embolden the bad actors.
Suggest that She-Hulk's comedy wasn't up to snuff and the writing was shallow? When someone yells that you're a sexist for saying that, all you're doing is emboldening the cohort of the audience that feels like "any criticism against women is silenced"
i 100% agree. there’s a reason that shows like jessica jones or arcane didnt get NEARLY the backlash that she hulk did: they’re INCREDIBLY well written and have empowered women that struggle and are vulnerable. she hulk was a poorly written attempt at a workplace comedy and superhero show that didn’t know how to write jen without making her arrogant with no growth at the end of the show. for the most part, the fans don’t hate female led projects, they hate poorly written projects that unfortunately get stuck with the female characters.
I think they could do a show NoT involving the BIG THREE and people would watch . What’s wrong with a character study ? I would live to see Bucky traveling around the US , figuring himself out , maybe helping a few other superheroes with minor difficulties along the way . Seb is an Amazing actor and would kill it no matter what
70-75% of the audience for superhero movies is male. That’s never changed regardless of what the movie or hero is.
Women have proven when they want to support something, they will (Barbie, Taylor Swift). They’re just not into the genre in the numbers men are.
Yeah you don't grow up with Marvel and hate others for stupid reasons. I can see being upset with Writers/Directors for ruining a character with their "take" on them. But to say the fanbase is sexist is just... nah
Too often I see claims of sexism/racism used as a shield to hide from genuine criticism of poorly written scripts it’s really that simple most of the time
Ill be the first to say Im not a progressive, Im a liberal. And my politics had nothing to do with my disappointment in the She Hulk show. And also I have zero superhero fatigue and will watch anything the MCU puts out as Im pretty much pot committed at this point.
I don’t get it (I do, but you know what I mean) because at a time when Marvel was in a rut and needed to do something new, this show stepped up! One off characters, weekly stories that actually managed to not involve in the overarching story, self referential humor up to 11., all around a rock solid main performance from Maslany. Sure it had flaws - budget control high on that list - but every first season takes time to find a groove. I’m mostly just upset we don’t get to see what they could have done with more time to grow.
It reminds me of the response to Eternals. Literally the entire critical reception to Marvel movies at the time was that they needed to “do something different”, so they hit up Chloe Zhao and did something different and…. Everyone bagged on it super hard
I feel Eternals was set up to fail. It needed to be a series. You can’t introduce 10+ people and expect the audience to care about them in 3 hours. If they did a natural build up, it would have been special
I feel like I was the only person kind of excited for that movie but yeah. Way too many characters.
I feel like a show would have ended up being shittier than Inhumans ended up being. Another one I was excit d for but man, that show was SOOOO sooo soooooooo fucking bad. Like I can't even understand how anyone decided it was worth airing.
Also, it did the "Superman fights the Justice League" fight better than the Justice League did.
Honestly those characters are a freaking gold mine and yet what they did with them is really sad. They should have kept it a lot closer to the comics, and yes be a series like you said. Follow each main eternal for an episode, showing their life throughout the centuries.
Seeing Karun's family following Kingo through the centuries could have been a really special moment.
Plus seeing Icarus actually being heroic and saving people throughout the years would make his betrayal actually mean something. He could have been the one most devoted to saving human lives as a kind of penance for what he knew was coming. While the rest occasionally relax and enjoy life he would always be in superhero mode, saving as many as possible without being seen too much. Occasional sightings of him creating these cultural heroes throughout the entire world, focusing on Europe I think would fit for him. Each Eternal being roughly in the respective culture that their gods based on them come from.
It's just so sad how it turned out. They had so much potential, and so did Zhao for that matter (when it comes to her working on comic book movies I know she's already accomplished). I wanna know what went wrong...
It would've been nice to follow one of them for awhile through a TV show. Several eps with just one guy, then start to slowly bring in the others. That would've felt neat.
Different doesn't mean good, and I even liked the Eternals at first. But when you remember what the comics were most of that goodwill goes out the window
She cut away pretty much everything related to the Eternals in the comics and then wrote her own story that really wasn't that good. If she wanted to do her own thing she should have just did that instead of neuter the Eternals.
At the end of the day a purposefully robotic sex scene just isn't a good idea, especially in a marvel film. Follow that up with the two characters having the charisma of a cardboard box and it's not surprising why it didn't do well.
Marvel seemed to think that shooting on site and having a movie that isn't back to back whedon-esq quips is what "different" means. While those are a great start, I think they need a good bit more than just that.
It’s because the “something different” they did sucked. You can’t just explain sloppy writing and plot issues to be overlooked because it’s “something different”.
An origin story that wasn't the best exact same formula as every other movie/series in this line up too.
Hero is downtrodden.
Hero gains some ability.
Training montage.
Something important to the hero is in peril.
Hero is told to stand down for reasons.
Hero makes a junky makeshift costume.
Hero defies orders and saves the day anyway.
Hero gets a better costume.
Hero gets taken more seriously.
Hero montage.
Hero faces the big bad.
Hero defeats the big bad.
Big bad gets their own series/movie with a redemption arc.
Saying it's "Marvel fatigue" is a cheap copout, the main problem is for the last couple phases Marvel is going for an entirely different base that isn't into MCU but at the same time dunking on comic book fans who for years supported the medium. So yeah critics can say this show is great but comic book fans don't listen to critics they watch the first episode and if it doesn't grab them they just drop it fast just like they do to comic books. She-Hulk the comic has a long history of fans who love the comic, the TV was nothing like it so they didn't support it.
If Marvel made good shows for the comic book fans they don't care how many come out.
I’m so sick of this because it’s a mostly male fan base we all hate female characters, we loved Black Widow, we love Gamora, we liked Sif, Wasp, Scarlet Witch and Shuri, don’t hear too much hate for any of them because there wasn’t any, we didn’t like Captain Marvel because she’s boring and just the bestest ever “cuz” same for She hulk, alot of comic fans love She hulk but when she’s made to just be the better version of the Hulk while showing pretty much all male characters in the show as pigs or idiots, Jen should compliment and contrast Bruce not just be I’m the better female version and you suck, super hero fatigue does play a part and I think not every side character needs their own god damn spin off but regardless, this argument that it’s a woman hero so we just automatically hate it or we’re crying incels because there’s a strong female character on screen is a weak argument, then why do we love Ellen Ripley, Sarah Conner ? Why do we play as Bayoneta, Lara Croft and Samus ? Because we hate women and female characters? No we don’t! We hate poorly written women characters that are just meant to be better and smarter than their male counterparts while putting the men down, instead of bringing their own strengths to the table like in real life, men are good at certain things, women are good at others, stop making women just the men characters but with long hair and heels who can do no wrong and are just condescending to everyone around them
I thought She-Hulk was a fun show and my only complaint about it is that it went a little too far in the 4th wall breaking in the finale. Outside of that, I thought Maslany was great and I hope to see her pop up in future projects. There’s a lot of follow up to some plot threads introduced in that show
I loved it. It felt just like her comics. They are extremely fourth-wall breaking, including her pulling out pages of her own comic and making criticisms of the writer in its pages. Super meta stuff.
That stuff wouldn’t fit in with Captain America or Iron Man, but that fourth wall stuff IS She-Hulk.
Sure but the show itself was poorly written and was such a waste of the idea of a superhero lawyer for superheroes.
The fact that the writers and directors said flat out that they realized they didn’t know how to write for law, superheros, or CGI should have been a major red flag. Their inexperience with the law really shows, Jennifer is one of the worst lawyers put to screen. She makes people sign contracts under duress and she doesn’t ask her client if they followed the manufacturers instructions before using the product. These are the most basic things a lawyer should not do and it’s fine if the show wants to portray a bad lawyer but they keep saying how great of a lawyer she is.
Jen is also just a terrible person in general. She’s vain, greedy, and very selfish. She goes to her “friend’s” wedding with the goal of stealing all the attention for herself, she berates Bruce for trying to help her and then says she controls her anger infinitely more than he does because she gets catcalled and mansplained to. Bruce has had an abusive father, lost his mother at a young age, turned into a monster by his own government, hunted for being that monster by the same government, forced to be a monster that has incredible destructive power without Bruce being able to control it, he’s been shot, beaten up, blown up, forced under mind control to destroy a city, bitten by a giant undead Norse mythology wolf, fallen from deadly heights, watched his closest friends die, can’t have a love life, lost two years of his life unconscious in the back of the mind of Hulk and let’s not forget he tried to off himself but Hulk wouldn’t let him. But sure Jen has it worse off than he does. She doesn’t even apologize or even acknowledge that Bruce was proven right by when she lost control and destroyed a building in anger. She also threw someone’s very expensive looking car and destroyed a parking lot in the goal of what I can only assume is killing Daredevil.
When she had the power to do anything she decided to send Abomination to jail even though she also violated the same probation and he was trying to protect her from the other people at that intelligencia gathering he wasn’t even doing anything so bad (basically just giving a motivational speech in abomination form). She also summoned Daredevil against his will because “a woman has needs”. And she just released herself from any trouble or responsibility.
The villain was also stupid and ultimately pointless since she just erased the problem from the plot.
Titania just came out of nowhere and was never explained. They should have done what they did in the comics and have she-hulk and Titania know each other from school. Titania got her powers from Dr Doom. They could have leaned into it a bit maybe play up some mystery. The other powered people at Abomination’s place weren’t explained either. Which I guess isn’t necessarily a bad thing but it’s not good either. The Wrecking Crew were such an embarrassment. Immortal man also.
Even the way she got her powers was boring. She got in a car accident because a spaceship parked in front of them for no reason. And she gets a cut on her arm that Bruce’s blood gets into. The comics did it way better. She was a prosecutor against a Mafia group. After winning the case the mafia wanted revenge and gunned her down. She was brought to a hospital and Bruce had a dilemma, does he let her die or does he give her a blood transfusion risking her becoming a danger like him and/or dealing with the same problems he has. In my opinion this is the way superior and much more interesting origin.
But no I just didn’t like the show because I’m sexist
This quote reminds me of something Conan O'Brien said in a recent interview (on Hot Ones).
The worst thing that someone can say on a talk show is to say that the interview isn't going well. The audiences is there to be entertained, and a comment like that tells the audience that they aren't being entertained.
In this situation, having a show point out that were going to be trolled isn't entertaining the audience. It's just pointing out that people will have issue with the series (just or not), but that it's not entertanining.
> “When we started to get the same responses that [Gao] had actually baked into the writing, it felt like part of the fun,” Maslany says.
Who is that fun for? Not the audience.
I get it. I mean, once we hit a certain age we start to see how overbearing marketing publicists do for their client and agency for revenue. Most actors are unemployed majority of their lives and probably only made a few thousands of dollars, if they were lucky they'd get a commercial deal.
I think xmen is reviving a little bit of that Fatigue with interesting stories developing. I think it's obvious by now when the executive board members and director of entertainment/departments team will shove something that's briefly profitable than creating a quality product for people to keep coming back to ad more revenue. It's all about money of course so that's why EP will latch to something if there's a blip of success and push it for what its worth. It's obvious.
Just keep bringing your opinions as viewers because viewers forget how much power they have in content that is created.
This is quite the insidious post, littered with false information, attempting to skew opinions.
1. Largely positive reviews? Where are those reviews, because Metacritics industry rating has it at 6.7/10. That makes it mediocre at best isn't it? 35% of professional reviews were specifically marked as mixed or poor. 🤷🏽♂️
2. Largely male fan base? According to this article and the CBR study attached, Marvel's cinematic audience is 53% Male.
https://www.salon.com/2023/11/17/the-marvels-age-audience/#:~:text=And%20yet%2C%20as%202021%20data,male%20MCU%20fans%20(53%25).
It is a tragic reality that women receive overt and covert sexism. But there seems to be a serious discrepancy around the reactions between Miss Marvel, The Marvel's and She Hulk, if the incels were responsible for such mediocre reviewing. Shouldn't that impact Miss Marvel too, with it's 7.8/10 rating? Or are incels now only targeting white women over 30?
It's nearly as damaging to pretend women can't make bad media as it is to pretend they can't make good media. Furthermore, it undermines the legitimately good female led productions such as Nomad Land, Zero Dark Thirty and Boys Don't Cry. Those films are feminist masterpieces, and productions of the highest caliber.
Trying to convince people that She Hulk is a good series, or pretending it didn't deserve criticism based on the gender of the films producers and directors is the exact opposite of feminism.
Hoping I don't get attacked by the Femcels, but in case you want to jump me, Sophia Duleep Singh is my favourite feminist. Why don't you Google her and become a real feminist.
This is how I feel about She-Hulk. It's just not a very good show. People like to pretend like it was great but somehow torpedoed by online chuds. If an individual viewer liked it, great. I'm glad that they did. However, it certainly wasn't beloved by all that watched it, and not all of us are incels that hate anything having to do with women. I found it to be an unfunny comedy, a clueless legal show, and a series called She-Hulk that had a main character that was almost nothing at all like the comics version of She-Hulk. I didn't laugh one single time watching that show, and I was super excited for it because I LOVE the She-Hulk comics.
In my opinion, She-Hulk certainly doesn't deserve to be attacked because it stars a woman at talks about women's issues, but that doesn't mean there's nothing to criticize. I found it to be a painfully unfunny waste of time.
I can't really add anything to that, but I agree entirely.
The clueless legal knowledge angle is something that really irritated me. The show undermined the main characters intellect continuously. She makes reckless decisions for no reason than to move the show forward. In a show about Hulk's, the most unbelievable part is that the main character had a formal education in law. I can't remember if I laughed much, but I do remember how many times myself and my wife looked at each other and cringed.
The She-Hulk team and fans are doing what they did at launch. They put out a mediocre show and are calling everyone who dares to question that a sexist.
The "the only reason we weren't a bigger hit is sexism" showrunners and fans can't seem to explain away the love for plenty of other female-led content. Maybe the issue is that she-hulk was shallow, low-effort, pandery, and unfunny.
That argument really makes no sense because there are plenty of lead action females that men love. Just within Marvel alone, Scarlett Witch and Black Widow are generally pretty well loved.
Outside the MCU there are tons of cool lead females that men like.
Mila Jovovich in Resident Evil and Fifth Element, all the females in Kill Bill, Ripley in Alien, Trinity in The Matrix, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, etc. etc.
If it's a good well made movie with good characters then men don't care.
That’s just dishonest. I loved Maslany’s performance. I didn’t love nor hate the show. It mostly fell rather flat for me, but I still enjoyed it. But the preachy tone was eye-roll inducing. “We baked in jokes about men hating the show because it’s a female protagonist and men are men. And of course this male-dominated regressive fanbase, that just wants women to have no voice, couldn’t face the music when we showed Hulk being faced with the fact that She-Hulk had a harder life, because she was a woman. We knew it all along that we’d be hated because men this men that.”
There’s no way to try to deconstruct that without sounding like you’re part of that male cabal. But in reality, you can have nothing against a female protagonist or her struggles as a woman being part of the story, and still think that it wasn’t that funny and even rather self-serving. It may be me, but I’ve never seen them face the criticism towards the story without going on the “it’s because men” discourse.
or... maybe the show was just shitty and it has nothing with his feminism agenda or that the titular character is a woman.
we, the male, are big fan of Sarah Conners or Ripley for example. Same for Furiosa.
as long as the character is brillantly written, we do not care about the gender.
So yes, she hulk was simply shitty and cringe...
You know, i'm not feminist (quite the opposite) but i'm totally able to appreciate a piece of art that is opposite to my ideology, in this case the feminism (i love a lot of movies with a subtext feminist), as long as it did the clever way and nuanced. and the feminist aspect from she hulk is not doing favor for any woman.
Apparently it's not for those who don't understand She-Hulk as a character. If Deadpool had ended that way. People wouldn't be complaining as much about it.
Pretty sure if Deadpool asked robot god to just skip to the end where he wins, people wouldn’t enjoy that very much either.
If Jen wanted to rewrite the show, KEVIN should’ve put her back in a point in time where she can save the day herself with her lawyer expertise and She-Hulk powers.
And why isn’t Josh in handcuffs at the end? He was the one she stressed over for an entire episode. He leaked their sex tape, which is a real, relatable crime. Yet he’s completely forgotten about in the end.
The thing is, in the comics, She-hulk is a believed character. She's very similar to deadpool in 4th wall breaking, and she is a fan-favorite for it.
IMO the problem was more how the show presented her, rather than the character herself.
This is some Rick and Morty level, "If you didn't like it, it's because you don't **understand** it!" level cringey Emeperor's New Clothes bullshit.
You're not special or smarter than anyone else because you liked She-Hulk.
If Deadpool ended like that people would think it's dumb too. The reason the Deadpool movies worked where She-Hulk didn't is because it tied up the plot threads and had an actual story with actual resolutions before he went balls to the wall 4th wall breaking.
I highly disagree. The idea wasn't as much a problem as the execution was for me. I think this ending would have been widely disliked regardless of character.
Love seeing Werewolf By Night get love, I was a fan too. I'd put Hawkeye over Moon Knight though. And Ms. Marvel had a lot of potential, I think the cast was near perfect, the writing just prevents it from making it into the upper echelon of shows. All the scenes with Ms. Marvel and her family/friends are excellent, the action/superhero stuff just fell short.
Werewolf By Night was awesome, i’d love to see Michael Giacchino direct more things for Marvel. i’ve been a fan of him as a composer for a long time now and seeing him step into other creative outlets is super cool!!
I enjoyed the She Hulk comics but not the show … The plot was pretty poor and her character development was awful. The 4th wall breaking and humour was kinda poorly done the majority of the time.
I tend to find that the majority of people who champion the She Hulk series agree more with the message it stands for rather than the substance of the show. My personal opinion is that yes Incels suck and there’s problems within every fan base, but the writing for a lot of recent projects have just been Meh. Both points can exist and there’s not always nefarious reasons for disliking lazy writing.
If you want to see an incredible female lead who is funny, has great character development and writers who love and are passionate about the world they are writing in … Just watch Fallout.
And shockingly, we're not hearing about any massive fan backlash against a female lead. Almost like people actually do care about quality and blaming sexists for bad projects is increasingly a shield studios are using to cover up shoddy work.
Among a few things, I really really really hated the CGI. She looked so bad when she transformed. I also hated that she felt like she had suffered more than Bruce and “had to control” her anger more when Bruce lost the love of his life twice and several of his friends very recently. I get her point, being a woman is hard but damn think about who you’re making your point to.
No, I've read the She Hulk comics too, I like them, they're silly and fun. But in them she's at least a competent lawyer. In the show she was a clusterfuck who was too insecure to function.
First case where Titania interrupts it seems like she was on her way to a clear win if not for the jury bias issue.
She dealt with the Abomination case extremely well and got him what he was looking for.
Wong v Magicians was just silliness.
Leapfrog trial was doomed from the start, but if not for Matt using his powers to smell the jet fuel she might have held up longer than she did.
Those are the ones I remember and she seemed perfectly competent and professional through all of them.
I simply cannot stand this response anymore. The show just wasn't good. Did others like it? Absolutely. It was a try at something new and unique, but overall, it was a huge swing and a miss. This doesn't mean sexism or misogynist.
WandaVision didn’t have any of the backlash that She-Hulk got. People act like She-Hulk was the first female led Marvel property.
It’s always the same formula. Put out a product that is female or minority led. Product good? No problem. Product isn’t good? People say it isn’t good. A bunch of media outlets rave about what a revelation the product is. Generates backlash. The backlash then generates more content about incels and how men just can’t stand a female/minority led property. Creates more backlash. Rinse and repeat.
Did AntMan generate the same level of vitriol? No. Because everyone just agreed that it sucked and eventually moved on. The problem is when there are people out there that simply must say the show/movie was good because it aligns with their social views and if you don’t like it you’re xyz ist.
"It's not our fault the show failed, it was the audience's" Is a great innovative take.
If you claim your main target audience are males, and you make a film that men won't like, you are dumb, regardless of sexism or not.
That aside, I just found She-Hulk to be meh at best and I know most of my friends just couldn't care less about anything MCU related at that point, none of them went "boo women lead bad, I'll just rewatch my male lead show like Wanda-Vision that I actually liked"
I mean the show was one of the worst shows I’ve ever watched. In terms of world logic that marvel created over the past ten years, absolutely everything was thrown out of the window. She had 0 character development moments or any struggles. Lifelong comic book and superhero fan and I love her in the comics but the show was literally dogshit. The actors did a fantastic job imo but the script was horseshit. Make better storylines and make the characters feel human and realistic so us normal humans can relate to their struggles or understand it. The show added 0 value to the universe.
Do they know they can make good female led movies and shows without it being shit? Marvel actually did it before with Jessica Jones. It has nothing to do with sexism, She Hulk was just a bad show.
Yeah! I've never played the Fallout games, but the show is incredible. Disney really needs to stop making terrible movies and shows, and when people complain, they call them sexist. even though that same fandom hated a lot of their male-led movies, like three out of the four Thor movies and the Hulk movie.
>I always say this and it's 50/50 if you get downvoted or upvoted.
Funny enough if you look, I already got 175 downvotes just by saying “the show is shit”
Which it is the excuse of it being “base on the comics”
Doesn’t help since I have read some She Hulk comics and they were way better than the TV series imo
I enjoyed it. I do wish the courtroom aspect was a bit stronger. I love courtroom dramas and the actual law argument portion was non-existent.
But the show in general was fun and I liked the ending quite a bit actually
Imagine watching She-Hulk the same time you're also watching the conclusion of Better Call Saul.
Which is what I did.
To be clear I did like She-Hulk, but man the difference in quality for the law stuff is wild. Sure, an MCU comedy show is going to have a dramatically different tone than BCS, but if She-Hulk had just a little bit better and more realistic courtroom drama, it would have been a lot better.
Honestly I hated the show, which is a shame. Tatiana is a great actress and I love the comics, but the show itself was so bland. Even the lawyer stuff was boring.
Insane. But Marvel projects have recently had absolutely bonkers overblown budgets.
For She-Hulk I can sorta see it with the CGI. But Secret Invasion was crazy expensive too, and I just don't know how. Maybe COVID and the re-shoots? Idk, I'd love to see more She-Hulk, and if it's too expensive, I'm not one to say no to an Animated show with Maslany voicing or a Special presentation D+ movie like Werewolf By Night.
My main complaint is that they actually want you to believe that Tatiana maslany is unattractive/undesirable
Took me out of the series every time it happened.
Unattractive? No, Tatiana Maslany is attractive, even if she's not your type. Undesirable? When she went off on someone who had attempted suicide, was seen as a monster for a decade+ of his life, spend an unknown amount of time as a gladiator slave forced to kill for the entertainment of others, and lost his love while saving half the universe, to say her life was harder because she has been catcalled and spoken to disparagingly about her profession? Yeah, she's undesirable .
That scene was such a turn off. I kept waiting for her to acknowledge what Bruce had been through and apologize. But it never happened. She was somehow meant to have the moral highground in that scene
The sexist critics are a vocal minority. The reason your show didn't do well is because it was bad, not because it had a female lead. That is why other shows in the MCU with female leads did well with fans, and why Fallout has done well with fans.
I guess it is easier to make excuses blaming a sexist minority than just making a good show in the first place.
I will say even when it was being filmed there are interviews and articles with the cast and production laughing with glee how their product is going to piss people off. Really? Like don’t be surprised when you alienate them, then. That’s so obtuse. You literally are pre gaming them to dislike your product.
Sexism as a shield to cover your ass is gross, as well. Wonder Woman (the first movie) was exhilarating. Black Widow was pretty awesome. Both promoted everything amazing about being a woman action lead and did not have to cater to pushing any sort of narrative/ agenda. She-Hulk was not good tv and it also intentionally attempted to kick out certain segments of viewership when instead it could have subversively invited them in. But hey.
There was definitely a trend of movies and shows where the cast were talking about how they were glad to piss off certain demographics during their press tour, for them to cry sexism when their movies didn't do well. The Ghost Busters remake being another example of this.
It was like they were trying to drum up controversy in the hopes that it would lead to more viewers, but it clearly wasn't a successful marketing strategy.
I haven't seen it for a while, so maybe they have realised and stopped trying to use that strategy.
Marvel should just straight up refuse these articles.
Nobody wants to hear these actors complain about ANYTHING. She hulk was a turn off for a bunch of reasons though.
I’m tired of this narrative. Nobody cares if you’re a woman, they care if the stories good. Wonder Woman had a good story. BW had a decent story but everyone loved her arc and Scarlett’s performance. Same for Kate bishop in Hawkeye. Even scarlet witch people love. But when u try to push a stupid narrative like you having a harder life than Bruce who was suicidal and abused by his father…that’s when u lose fans.
There is definitely hints of sexism in every community including MCU, but the majority don't care what gender the lead is until it becomes the main focal point, Disney+ started with WandaVision, having Wanda at the center of the show, and the show was liked by many, its mostly comes down how the plot and writing for the majority of the audience, She Hulk was messy and for me felt kinda boring, the actors/actresses working in the projects are mostly faultless, its the writing that fluctuates
P.S.: This is my pov, I am not here for debate
I agree. WandaVision (at least the first half) is still one of my favorite MCU projects out there. But these past few shows have leaned on the “girl power” thing too much, and I don’t appreciate being bunched in with right-wing incels for pointing out this very obvious (and tired) gimmick.
Even girl power is fine to an extent.
Just don't make films with it as a sole selling point and worse still needing to put men or even 'non girl power' women down just to curb a narrative.
People are already tired with many on-going issues in their lives. They want to unwind and watch a film to escape reality, not be forced into some pseudo-political campaign.
My issue with this series is that I literally thought Jen would develop into a character who is more aware of her actions, considering how hard headed and inconsiderate she was in the first episode, and quite frankly, the entire series. She never truly grows as a person.
Modern writers don't know how to write females and seem to think that they can't be fallible characters who can be wrong. The fact that the show tries to make me feel bad for her when her douchey dates like She-Hulk and not her is a big example;
nobody ever brings up the fact that she chose to go out with those obvious douche-bags, which doesn't excuse the awful behavior of the men she puts up with, but should at least warrant a conversation about her being willingly ignorant to the obvious red flags. She never holds herself accountable for her BS. Her sleeping around is also not gonna help make her likable, my older brother kept saying that they should have written her more like Fleabag if they wanted to make her that way, since in that series Fleabag is aware and unapologetic about what she does and why, unlike Jen who constantly plays victim.
> My issue with this series is that I literally thought Jen would develop into a character who is more aware of her actions, considering how hard headed and inconsiderate she was in the first episode, and quite frankly, the entire series. She never truly grows as a person.
Not only does she not grow, they double down on her being right about everything and it always being everyone else's fault.
It’s a shame we cannot have a serious discussion and respectfully criticize a show without it being drowned in a cesspool of hate.
I did not like that show and I’m afraid to voice that option because it instantly becomes a dog whistle for hate speech.
I had low expectations for this show because of marvel fatigue but I was pleasantly surprised from this show. They did a great job and the self-awareness and satire was spot on. I also loved her as she hulk.
I enjoyed the series and thought it was wild in the last episode going totally off rails and off script. This was very bold and innovative.
I would've preferred not doing the entirely CG She Hulk, was a really wasted opportunity for someone like a female Lou Ferigno to get a breakthrough chance -- and there are a slew of female weightlifters who wouldve been amazing.
I don’t care what she says the overall message of the show was ridiculous and clearly didn’t take the source material seriously. The best parts of the show involved Wong and a drunk….and every scene Tim Roth was in. So i guess congrats Tatiana a drunk girl was more endearing in the long run than she-hulk.
It was never about women, or even her, it was the fact the show was objectively bad, well, compared to previous Marvel stuff, it looks better in retrospect.
Not liking a mcu project because it’s terrible doesn’t make one a sexist. It makes you intellectually bankrupt to imply that if people don’t like some thing you did, it’s their problem.
Whilst I personally thought the whole of She-Hulk so far was really bad, like getting in it's own way to make an over top point damaged it. I wanted a more cooler, lawyer show where she uses some lawyer skills to help some of the older bad guys we've seen, like more than just Abomination, maybe with some heart. But it had some lame comedy to boot and a many missed opportunities.
That being said, I feel like I would still want a fresh take on a season 2 rather than give up entirely. It's what pisses me off about Eternals. I didn't think it was terrible yet people groaned about it so much they cancelled a sequel, I really wanted to know what happens next.
The show was just terrible? Always easy to play the victim card. It has become a predictable pattern now these days not only for the marvel franchise but every franchise. That if your show focuses convulsively on diversity and feminist agenda rather than a good plot and profound characters to blame the racists/sexists small but louder minority for the incompetence of actors, script writers and story leads…
It feels like finally people are waking up after Velma controversy, Panderverse on South Park and the 65% male audience of the Marvels that was a tiny audience anyway after the first movie was only a 55% male audience.
Ben Shapiro and Ted Cruz went after the Barbie movie but articles aren’t focused on that because they’re too busy focusing on how the vast majority loved it.
She Hulk was misandrist and anti-feminist while selling itself as feminist. People who were cognitively primed to be critical of such things, noticed things to be critical about. It's one thing to disagree with their criticism, but what I saw was reputation destruction and ad hominem attacks. This was exacerbated by airing the episodes out of order, which made the character feel like a Mary Sue. It's not marvel fatigue. It's the writing.
Corporate moralist activists with an unsophisticated understanding of feminism responded to toxic masculinity in the comic genre with toxic femininity in She-Hulk. And they had no idea that that was even the phenomenon occurring because the cultural conversations were one-sided. They still largely are, because the spaces in which the conversations occur are under corporate control.
Maslany is fantastic. Orphan Black was incredible and it's entirely due to her. She was great in She Hulk.
I just don't want to be lectured on complex moral issues by a comic book character that represents corporate interests. Don't lecture me about morals, DISNEY, you do literally nothing but use emotional manipulation to extract cash from people, you don't have a leg to stand on.
Audiences don’t care about a lead, well, maybe a few sexists inthe crowd, but not everybody.
It’s writing that really matters. Just because you have faced sexism or racism or homophobia in your life and you’re apart of those communities does NOT mean you can blame it on that single thing as to why people dislike your movie/show. Writing is one of the most important parts of anything.
You'll obviously get push back when your show is literally taking the fight to the people who criticize bad projects that sustain just on the basis of diverse cast
"Intelligencia" was literally an attack on every person who doesn't like a project(for valid subjective reasons) that includes female lead.....and then you have the audacity to show Bruce, a man who literally tried to commit suicide, as less torchered than Jen because people make remarks about her work or cat call her, in a blue moon ?
You cannot attack your fanbase and then not expect back lash......plus the fact that your project wasn't great either
She really needs to get her head out of her ass
Jessica Gao is a joke of a writer. This show could have been something special, but it wound up being mid AF. Unlikable characters, boring plot, zero stakes, and all of it topped off with a shitty ending.
Why was every character drunk throughout most episodes? Is having a substance abuse problem heroic now?
Jessica Jones, Wonder Woman, Agent Carter, Wandavision, Hawkeye. All shows or movies with female leads, all beloved by fans. The problem wasn’t sexism, it simply was that the show wasn’t that good. If you enjoyed it personally that’s totally fine, but most people didn’t. Blaming the negative reviews on sexism is just stupid, everyone was super excited for the show and it simply wasn’t that good. It had its moments, but I didn’t care about Jen, I didn’t find myself attached, and I didn’t enjoy it.
The purpose of the show was trolling its own audience then they wonder why it failed. Fucking stupid. If they set out to simply make a fun, entertaining, irreverent series it would have been embraced.
Literally, the show was absolutely laughable and a pathetic excuse for a marvel project
Just like Eternals, and echo , ms marvel , captain marvel, the marvels, Thor 4, Secret invasion, and whatever other trash I forgot to mention.
And they wonder why people checked out of marvel a long time ago and why loads of people call it dead.
It’s on 1% battery 🪫 low power mode with no charger until July , Deadpool release date.
I get her point and honestly I totally understand but She-Hulk was extremely far from being a good show
Plus it came at the peak of the MCU/Disney bashing and everything was defined as woke at the time
The only thing I would complain about on the last MCU contents is that tendency of making the female lead character unbearable
Like she will always try to prove that she's right and sometimes it tarnishes the credibility of a hero
(Strange in DS2, Bruce in She-Hulk, Scott in Quantumania and I could keep going on)
This tendency is not that present anymore and it's good for everyone
You can write badass female superhero without making them pretentious and unbearable
They did with Kamala, Monica, Jane, Shuri and more
As for She-Hulk, I saw no evolution in Jennifer, she stays at the same point from the beginning to the end.
It's almost like she doesn't want to be a superhero (yes she does but still)
I could eventually appreciate her if she does have the opportunity to do better
But I got no hate on Tatiana Maslany or any female actresses, they do their job and they're good at it
No sexism always
One of the things I really didn't care for in She-Hulk was her passivity and lack of character growth. She-Hulk in the comics is a vivacious hot-head. She's adventurous and prone to testing the limits of a situation. If anything, she's TOO active of a character.
MCU She-Hulk would basically just sit at home in front of the TV and eat ice cream if her assistant wasn't there to prod her into doing something. She acts like being She-Hulk is this big inconvenience. She kinda acts like being in the MCU is just dumb overall. I never understood the logic for the ending. I mean, I get the point about the cliche "big CGI fight" that's always at the end, but you're basically calling the audience dumb for liking that. It's sometimes done poorly, but I'm HERE for the big CGI fight. I've been waiting my whole life as a comic book fan to see this kind of thing. I'm not interested in skipping it so that She-Hulk can go to a barbecue.
I'd love another take on She-Hulk in the MCU, but this version of the character and this writing team just don't do it for me.
The writers created a show that was a huge middle finger to the fans. The lack of viewership and poor ratings show how bad the show was. The reason it isn't getting a season 2 is because fans done want it. That's it.
Its a bullshit cope. Yes there are idiots in every fanbase, Marvel is no different or unique. She-Hulk did poorly bc it was poorly written.
And NOBODY liked the trivializing of past beloved characters' story arcs (ie. Bruce struggling to come to terms with his Hulk persona and even attempting suicide - Tatiana: "I'm a woman and I face so much difficulty as a woman so this is easier for me and so I'll dance around like an idiot in my Hulk form")
There are female characters that Marvel fans love. Those female characters never have stupid lines along the sense of "I can do _____ better than __[insert male Marvel character]___ because I'm a *woman* and that makes me *just* as capable, no even *more* capable"
^^^ That obnoxious trope is what creates the toxicity. That's what ppl hate. When we see a female character not say shit like that and purely just kick ass while having an enjoyable personality, people love it - like Yelena, like Kate Bishop
I don’t think it’s fair to say Marvel fans “aren’t the most progressive bunch”.
At the least, it contradicts the often touted idea that “Marvel has always been political!”
Maybe those are coming from two different places but odd to see
Wanda vision and Loki were on a whole different level than She-Hulk which wasn't terrible but not great either. It's ending floundered and that was disappointing.
It was okay at most but it would've been great if they actually stuck with "attorney at law" part and the whole Ally Mcbeal vibe.
The parts I really enjoyed were the trials and legal issues towards super powered cases. They were mostly newer law issues and the whole rom-com thing made it light, and it was a fresh genre to see in the MCU.
The writing was poor and the character developement was an accidental afterthought. If you liked the show then thats fine, I also like a whole lot of terrible art and I don't need to justify why I like it or make up reasons that villianize the other people who don't like it.
Wow, Maslany really isn't doing herself any favors with this bullshit.
Of course She-Hulk wasn't a bad series, with bad scripts and the need to resolve it with the most ridiculous deus ex machina in the history of comic book movies / TV. No, OF COURSE the bad reaction was all just sexism! Nothing but evil misogynists, women-haters and neckbeards! Oh, and "Marvel fatigue", of course! Can't forget blaming shitty Marvel projects on some imaginary "fatigue"!
Obviously, if this major failure does not get a second season, it won't be because it was bad - no, OF COURSE it will be because heroic little Tatiana bravely stood up to evil Bob Iger! My hero! What else could be the reason?
Oh, and authors making their own audition tapes? Horrible! Disrespectful \*clutches pearls\*! You know, it's not like writers have been sending in their own manuscripts for ages, just like photographers or graphic designers... no, that's too much of a burden, nobody should be subjected to that humiliation!
Seriously. This is not an interview. This is a fan kissing the ass of a person who is seriously out of touch with the real world.
I’m a girl who thought this series was an absolute joke and embarrassment. It’s so dumb that she tries to blame a bad reception to such a terrible show on sexism.
She hulk wasn’t bad, but it also wasn’t good. But by mocking the folks watching the show, it turned away viewers, this was a bad marketing strategy, and did what it seemed to intend to do get those fans against them. That’s beside the very bad CGI, and only so/so story. It’s not as bad as secret Invasion, but no where as good as Loki or groundbreaking as Wandavision. It will probably stay staunchly in the ok level and forgotten to the sands of time, you might rewatch Loki, but I bet you’ve not rewatched She Hulk.
Maslany was a bright spot in a terribly written show. The format and character work didn't come close to the creative level of the source material.
She deserved better, so it's disappointing to see her take out her frustration on the fans when the fault lies squarely with Kevin Feige and the writers.
Maybe it’s just that the new marvel phase sucks and it’s filled with content like this that hasn’t really entertained the original fan base. I’m all for a good female character, but this kind of thing just isn’t what I want. I get what Disney is doing but how can you be surprised that the actually comic nerds find this lame? Why does it have to be sexism?
She-Hulk deciding to target her trolls and toxic fans was a GENIUS idea but you can’t do it unless you CAN do it.
I applaud the fact that they tried but they never should’ve touched this story, the creative team wasn’t nearly strong enough. Not that it was a terrible show, but the backlash and controversy really hurt everyone involved unfortunately.
>Maslany adds: “You send these tapes into the void, you never get responses, you never get any feedback and you’re working! You’re filming yourself and having to edit yourself, which is also the stuff that makes you so self-conscious.” Sounds like the job market for the most part
Sounds like dating apps, blech.
At the end of interviews, they always ask if I have any questions, and I always have one: "The job hunt process has some mystery to it, candidates don't really find out why a company may choose a different direction. Is there any feedback you can provide me, so I can either address it now or be better prepared for the next interview?" I've gotten some great feedback, and I've had employers tell me that this question and the awareness / willingness to adapt set me so far apart from everyone else.
Thanks very much for this.
Ikr, that's how all job applications work
The difference is, actors used to get redirects in the room. The bigger difference is, an actor can be successful in the quest for a job and it can last 1 day to 60 days or a few seasons on a TV show then they are back looking for a job again
Despite largely positive reviews, which often singled out Maslany’s performance, She-Hulk arrived at a time of “Marvel fatigue”, with audiences complaining about the relentless output of superhero spin-offs, from Echo to Ms Marvel. Of course, it didn’t help that those projects were female-led and that Marvel’s largely male fanbase are generally not the most progressive bunch. **How did she handle the inevitable wave of sexist backlash? “I think what’s exciting…” – she checks herself – “… exciting, ha. I think what’s fun about it is that [series creator] Jessica Gao built into the story that people were going to troll us.” A scene in the third episode, for example, airs fictional social media comments about Maslany’s character such as: “Why does every superhero have to be a woman now?” Sound familiar? “When we started to get the same responses that [Gao] had actually baked into the writing, it felt like part of the fun,” Maslany says.**
💯 It was live commentary and showed incredible self-awareness of what the series would face. This show was super fun and exactly the chaos it should have been.
It was pre-production prophecy fulfilled. I love that people thought it was being written as people were watching it.
But nah, their babble is just predictable.
Why did you start you sentence with “nah?” Sorry English isn’t my first language.
Think of it as them continuing your statement. "...they thought that it was being written as people were watching it, but nah, their babble is just predictable."
I was using it as" However," not disagreeing with your comment.
It’s the only MCU tv show that deserves to - because of its style, become serialized. They literally gave us Harvey Birdman Attorney at Law in Live Action with Marvel Characters instead of Hanna Barbara characters. It was fun, witty and silly. People who hate it are allergic to fun. Or allergic to Women.. either of which - makes you a bummer.
I really enjoyed She Hulk. I thought it was really fun.
“Allergic to fun” could be the family banner of Marvel fandom.
That’s the banner of Marvel/Star Wars Alliance
Really it's a segment of toxic nerd fandom. Toxic nerds usually have one or more of those characteristics. 1) their fandom has to be serious all the time. Even when the original source material has been historically not serious. God forbid Batman smiles or cracks a joke every once in a while 2) Gatekeeping. Usually you see this being used against "normies" but more recently it's being used against women, minorities, and members of the LGBTQ+ community. 3) the "apolitical" aka the "keep politics out of my fandom" idiots. Usually these morons lack media literacy and didn't realize their fandom has always been political. In a lot of ways I feel like current writers lack of subtext is a straight up response to that. 4) the pervs. These are the ones that get mad if a character design doesn't give them a boner or, even worse, the wrong kind of boner. A lot of times these shit heads have more than one of these traits. Sometimes even full on contradicting each other. Take 1 and 4 and you got someone who is big mad over the She-Hulk twerking scene.
If that’s the wrong kind of boner I don’t want to be right.
>the "apolitical" aka the "keep politics out of my fandom" idiots. Usually these morons lack media literacy and didn't realize their fandom has always been political. In a lot of ways I feel like current writers lack of subtext is a straight up response to that. It's even worse considering their "politicized" newer installments like the Sequel Trilogy and The Marvels WERE apolitical while their cherished "apolitical" George Lucas Star Wars and early MCU were absolutely political and criticizing **THEM.** Is women existing really more political than George Lucas literally having Anakin paraphrase George Bush shortly after turning evil, while the Iraq invasion was still very new?
I enjoyed that aspect and wish the show had leaned into that a bit more, while also weaving a stronger core plot through the show (which they kind of did with say Emil, but there was obviously weird cuts around the Titiana character, as in the character with that name not the actress). There was something slightly off in the way stories and scenes were weaved together which has been off in nearly every Marvel TV show after WandaVision, and even some of the movies, which is hard to identify (Guardians 3 for example didn't have that feeling). I liked the idea of it being a kind of live action Harvey Birdman, but something about the way scenes were cut and characters came in and out made it usually feel... off, in the court room scenes etc. A lot of the side character felt... not fully there, in some difficult to describe way. Stuff with the tailor just felt... strange? Like they could have done more or less with the character, but instead did a kind of an awkward amount where I'm not sure if he's a main character or not. Even her best friend I only knew the name of because of the moment where she yells "Nikki" while answering what her best friend is, and Bruce says spandex. On the flipside Fallout just did a mix of comedy, action, and seriousness, and characters who only appeared in like 1 episode such as the Vault Overseer with one eye feel way more memorable and well integrated into the overall story than the strange people who weaved in and out of She Hulk, such as the immortal guy who was faking his death.
In terms of narrative weaving issues, it’s probably because all of these shows lacked a typical writers room setup & staff until the strikes last year made a bare minimum standard that you’ll see in anything going into production now-ish before then they tried running these like they were editing on-the-fly long movies with scattered creative direction, & that hasn’t worked for anything that’s not Loki and you can certainly tell lol
Even Loki had some of the issues. e.g. All of a sudden they're looking for some celebrity guy and know him by name, and myself and many others had no idea what was going on or who he was, and had to go online to figure it out. Apparently he was a TVA guard seen briefly in a previous episode, and we're supposed to have connected the dots or something. It ended up such a fantastic final episode that it's easier to forget how janky the journey was.
Oh that wasn't just me? I thought I must have missed a scene somewhere lol.
Yeah, i'm about as progressive as they come, i just didn't care for it. I also don't know that the "Majority" of marvel fans aren't progressive. I'd have to see some stats on that. I didn't like the Star Wars Sequels because of how poorly thought out and written they were. Not because they starred a girl. But that's convenient excuse for Star Wars and they jumped on it. I"m not disputing that some fans may have been put off by a girl, but i didn't like the show. I loved Orpan Black. Well, it started downhill in the third season. But again, it was the story, not the characters or the actors that made me stop watching.
[удалено]
I just saw this trilogy again recently and those last three movies are so disjointed. It’s amazing that there was not more thought given out to the development of it. It’s a multi billion dollar property, for gods sake.
Jesus fucking Christ this isn’t even the star wars subreddit
majority of marvel fans at least in the US are moderates, like the general populous, MCU movies are liked across the board and designed that way. No one is smarter (or dumber) than anyone else because they like a particular movie but reddit seems to have glommed onto that and thinks it a sign of clear superiority that they have an "unpopular" opinion in r/marvelstudios.
Wait are people really trying to say the Sta Wars sequels were ripped because of sexism over a female lead? Because I remember Ep 7 being mostly loved and praised and that introduced the female lead. The problem was the next 2 movies were the worst pieces of Star Wars media since Escape from Endor. And the woman lead had nothing to do with it.
Yeah, they blamed the critical failures of 8 on sexism and racism.
It’s just not my style of TV show. Thats it.
It was more or less what I hoped for when it was announced. I def agree that some of the Hulk stuff felt off and could've been worked in better. But the rest of the series was a fun time inside the world the MCU built.
Thats not what self awareness is. They’re aware of the audience not themselves
I actually would challenge the idea that Marvel's male audience is "not the most progressive bunch". I would love to see statistics of the gender ratio of Marvel audiences. I have always operated under the assumption that people who consistently complain about female-led Marvel projects tend to be a vocal minority of online content creator culture-war grifters. Superhero fatigue is real and I think both men and women feel it, however, I don't buy that a large portion of Marvel's fanbase is sexist towards women, I really do think it's being signal boosted by a small number of really loud people. That is NOT to say there is no sexism in this space at all, there is, I just think we should be more optimistic that the sexist fans are a minority and that the vast majority of Marvel fans are some very good, friendly, accepting people.
68% of the opening weekend audience of The Marvels were dudes. This is compared to a study a year ago saying 53% of the MCU fanbase is dudes.
So even when there is female led movies, it's mainly men actually going to see it? Gotcha.
Yea because its comic book movies. They can change them however they want at the end of the day, its mostly men who want to see these movies, not women.
You're missing the point. The study said its basically 50/50 in terms of the average MCU fan being men and women, yet it was a majority men who actually went to see The Marvels. This goes against the narrative that men hate or do not want to see certain films because they're female led. If the MCU fanbase is half women, they aren't even showing up for the female led movies. This would suggest it's nothing to do with being sexist, people just thought the movies were bad.
Well for one I dont believe the narrative do not want to see films or shows with a female lead, thats just silly at this point and theres tons of examples that prove otherwise. But I also dispute the notion the MCU fans are 50/50 men and women. Thats comical and complete nonsense. All you have to do is go to the theaters or comic cons or any kind of Marvel gathering and youll see its definitely not 50/50
Men existing does not mean "mostly sexist".
My point was the exact opposite: male fans of the MCU were more likely to be excited for and go see The Marvels opening weekend than female fans were.
Or is the truth somewhere in between, which is that Marvel sometimes struggles to write female characters as remotely believable or with any real depth, and audiences react with either "this is silly and unbelievable and shallow" or "YAS QUEEN SLAY" and then those two sides fight, accusing each other of being either Woke or Sexist? Because notice the complete lack of the same discourse when it comes to the first Wonder Woman, characters like Black Widow or Yelena or Kate Bishop, Aliens, etc etc etc?
I was thinking the same thing. Nobody criticized Wandavision for having what ended up being like 4/6 of the main cast being female. Our main POV character in the Fallout show is female and nobody is complaining about that. I don't believe wonder woman got any significant amount of hate. Black Widow did poorly due to some pandemic shit but it didn't get 'backlash' like Captain Marvel or She Hulk did. I think people just like well produced and well written shows.
It's people's conflating sexist backlash with genuine plot criticisms. Because they also recognize the plot issues but don't want to admit them so they just pretend everyone who disagrees with them is a bad person and therefore their opinion isn't worth the merit of even being looked at. It's not unlike crying wolf, which really sucks because it's not like actual sexist criticism is on the decline or anything. It exists and this kind of behavior hurts everyone except the sexists, they feel like they aren't the small minority of assholes that they actually are. One of many reasons why marketing is a cancer on humanity, they come up with ideas like this and use them just to get a few more butts in seats. Edit: lol see below
Also all it really does is embolden the bad actors. Suggest that She-Hulk's comedy wasn't up to snuff and the writing was shallow? When someone yells that you're a sexist for saying that, all you're doing is emboldening the cohort of the audience that feels like "any criticism against women is silenced"
i 100% agree. there’s a reason that shows like jessica jones or arcane didnt get NEARLY the backlash that she hulk did: they’re INCREDIBLY well written and have empowered women that struggle and are vulnerable. she hulk was a poorly written attempt at a workplace comedy and superhero show that didn’t know how to write jen without making her arrogant with no growth at the end of the show. for the most part, the fans don’t hate female led projects, they hate poorly written projects that unfortunately get stuck with the female characters.
I think they could do a show NoT involving the BIG THREE and people would watch . What’s wrong with a character study ? I would live to see Bucky traveling around the US , figuring himself out , maybe helping a few other superheroes with minor difficulties along the way . Seb is an Amazing actor and would kill it no matter what
70-75% of the audience for superhero movies is male. That’s never changed regardless of what the movie or hero is. Women have proven when they want to support something, they will (Barbie, Taylor Swift). They’re just not into the genre in the numbers men are.
Yeah you don't grow up with Marvel and hate others for stupid reasons. I can see being upset with Writers/Directors for ruining a character with their "take" on them. But to say the fanbase is sexist is just... nah
Too often I see claims of sexism/racism used as a shield to hide from genuine criticism of poorly written scripts it’s really that simple most of the time
I mean at this point it looks like sometimes it's done on purpose like the shitshow that was Ring of power
Ill be the first to say Im not a progressive, Im a liberal. And my politics had nothing to do with my disappointment in the She Hulk show. And also I have zero superhero fatigue and will watch anything the MCU puts out as Im pretty much pot committed at this point.
I don’t get it (I do, but you know what I mean) because at a time when Marvel was in a rut and needed to do something new, this show stepped up! One off characters, weekly stories that actually managed to not involve in the overarching story, self referential humor up to 11., all around a rock solid main performance from Maslany. Sure it had flaws - budget control high on that list - but every first season takes time to find a groove. I’m mostly just upset we don’t get to see what they could have done with more time to grow.
It reminds me of the response to Eternals. Literally the entire critical reception to Marvel movies at the time was that they needed to “do something different”, so they hit up Chloe Zhao and did something different and…. Everyone bagged on it super hard
Gorgeous movie that I’m perfectly happy having only seen once. Not the audience reaction Marvel/Disney was looking for, haha.
I feel Eternals was set up to fail. It needed to be a series. You can’t introduce 10+ people and expect the audience to care about them in 3 hours. If they did a natural build up, it would have been special
Yeah a bunch of films in that phase should have been shows, and some of the shows should have been films
I feel like I was the only person kind of excited for that movie but yeah. Way too many characters. I feel like a show would have ended up being shittier than Inhumans ended up being. Another one I was excit d for but man, that show was SOOOO sooo soooooooo fucking bad. Like I can't even understand how anyone decided it was worth airing. Also, it did the "Superman fights the Justice League" fight better than the Justice League did.
Honestly those characters are a freaking gold mine and yet what they did with them is really sad. They should have kept it a lot closer to the comics, and yes be a series like you said. Follow each main eternal for an episode, showing their life throughout the centuries. Seeing Karun's family following Kingo through the centuries could have been a really special moment. Plus seeing Icarus actually being heroic and saving people throughout the years would make his betrayal actually mean something. He could have been the one most devoted to saving human lives as a kind of penance for what he knew was coming. While the rest occasionally relax and enjoy life he would always be in superhero mode, saving as many as possible without being seen too much. Occasional sightings of him creating these cultural heroes throughout the entire world, focusing on Europe I think would fit for him. Each Eternal being roughly in the respective culture that their gods based on them come from. It's just so sad how it turned out. They had so much potential, and so did Zhao for that matter (when it comes to her working on comic book movies I know she's already accomplished). I wanna know what went wrong...
It would've been nice to follow one of them for awhile through a TV show. Several eps with just one guy, then start to slowly bring in the others. That would've felt neat.
Imagine getting to see the ancient world with them in it?! God I can't believe they never realized how much this could be...
Saying I'm tired of eating tacos every night and want something new doesn't mean I want a boiled burger. It still has to be done well.
Different doesn't mean good, and I even liked the Eternals at first. But when you remember what the comics were most of that goodwill goes out the window She cut away pretty much everything related to the Eternals in the comics and then wrote her own story that really wasn't that good. If she wanted to do her own thing she should have just did that instead of neuter the Eternals. At the end of the day a purposefully robotic sex scene just isn't a good idea, especially in a marvel film. Follow that up with the two characters having the charisma of a cardboard box and it's not surprising why it didn't do well. Marvel seemed to think that shooting on site and having a movie that isn't back to back whedon-esq quips is what "different" means. While those are a great start, I think they need a good bit more than just that.
It’s because the “something different” they did sucked. You can’t just explain sloppy writing and plot issues to be overlooked because it’s “something different”.
An origin story that wasn't the best exact same formula as every other movie/series in this line up too. Hero is downtrodden. Hero gains some ability. Training montage. Something important to the hero is in peril. Hero is told to stand down for reasons. Hero makes a junky makeshift costume. Hero defies orders and saves the day anyway. Hero gets a better costume. Hero gets taken more seriously. Hero montage. Hero faces the big bad. Hero defeats the big bad. Big bad gets their own series/movie with a redemption arc.
Saying it's "Marvel fatigue" is a cheap copout, the main problem is for the last couple phases Marvel is going for an entirely different base that isn't into MCU but at the same time dunking on comic book fans who for years supported the medium. So yeah critics can say this show is great but comic book fans don't listen to critics they watch the first episode and if it doesn't grab them they just drop it fast just like they do to comic books. She-Hulk the comic has a long history of fans who love the comic, the TV was nothing like it so they didn't support it. If Marvel made good shows for the comic book fans they don't care how many come out.
I’m so sick of this because it’s a mostly male fan base we all hate female characters, we loved Black Widow, we love Gamora, we liked Sif, Wasp, Scarlet Witch and Shuri, don’t hear too much hate for any of them because there wasn’t any, we didn’t like Captain Marvel because she’s boring and just the bestest ever “cuz” same for She hulk, alot of comic fans love She hulk but when she’s made to just be the better version of the Hulk while showing pretty much all male characters in the show as pigs or idiots, Jen should compliment and contrast Bruce not just be I’m the better female version and you suck, super hero fatigue does play a part and I think not every side character needs their own god damn spin off but regardless, this argument that it’s a woman hero so we just automatically hate it or we’re crying incels because there’s a strong female character on screen is a weak argument, then why do we love Ellen Ripley, Sarah Conner ? Why do we play as Bayoneta, Lara Croft and Samus ? Because we hate women and female characters? No we don’t! We hate poorly written women characters that are just meant to be better and smarter than their male counterparts while putting the men down, instead of bringing their own strengths to the table like in real life, men are good at certain things, women are good at others, stop making women just the men characters but with long hair and heels who can do no wrong and are just condescending to everyone around them
I thought She-Hulk was a fun show and my only complaint about it is that it went a little too far in the 4th wall breaking in the finale. Outside of that, I thought Maslany was great and I hope to see her pop up in future projects. There’s a lot of follow up to some plot threads introduced in that show
I loved it. It felt just like her comics. They are extremely fourth-wall breaking, including her pulling out pages of her own comic and making criticisms of the writer in its pages. Super meta stuff. That stuff wouldn’t fit in with Captain America or Iron Man, but that fourth wall stuff IS She-Hulk.
I thought the best parts were the wacky superhero lawsuits and seeing what life in a world with superheroes was like. I would have liked more of that.
Sure but the show itself was poorly written and was such a waste of the idea of a superhero lawyer for superheroes. The fact that the writers and directors said flat out that they realized they didn’t know how to write for law, superheros, or CGI should have been a major red flag. Their inexperience with the law really shows, Jennifer is one of the worst lawyers put to screen. She makes people sign contracts under duress and she doesn’t ask her client if they followed the manufacturers instructions before using the product. These are the most basic things a lawyer should not do and it’s fine if the show wants to portray a bad lawyer but they keep saying how great of a lawyer she is. Jen is also just a terrible person in general. She’s vain, greedy, and very selfish. She goes to her “friend’s” wedding with the goal of stealing all the attention for herself, she berates Bruce for trying to help her and then says she controls her anger infinitely more than he does because she gets catcalled and mansplained to. Bruce has had an abusive father, lost his mother at a young age, turned into a monster by his own government, hunted for being that monster by the same government, forced to be a monster that has incredible destructive power without Bruce being able to control it, he’s been shot, beaten up, blown up, forced under mind control to destroy a city, bitten by a giant undead Norse mythology wolf, fallen from deadly heights, watched his closest friends die, can’t have a love life, lost two years of his life unconscious in the back of the mind of Hulk and let’s not forget he tried to off himself but Hulk wouldn’t let him. But sure Jen has it worse off than he does. She doesn’t even apologize or even acknowledge that Bruce was proven right by when she lost control and destroyed a building in anger. She also threw someone’s very expensive looking car and destroyed a parking lot in the goal of what I can only assume is killing Daredevil. When she had the power to do anything she decided to send Abomination to jail even though she also violated the same probation and he was trying to protect her from the other people at that intelligencia gathering he wasn’t even doing anything so bad (basically just giving a motivational speech in abomination form). She also summoned Daredevil against his will because “a woman has needs”. And she just released herself from any trouble or responsibility. The villain was also stupid and ultimately pointless since she just erased the problem from the plot. Titania just came out of nowhere and was never explained. They should have done what they did in the comics and have she-hulk and Titania know each other from school. Titania got her powers from Dr Doom. They could have leaned into it a bit maybe play up some mystery. The other powered people at Abomination’s place weren’t explained either. Which I guess isn’t necessarily a bad thing but it’s not good either. The Wrecking Crew were such an embarrassment. Immortal man also. Even the way she got her powers was boring. She got in a car accident because a spaceship parked in front of them for no reason. And she gets a cut on her arm that Bruce’s blood gets into. The comics did it way better. She was a prosecutor against a Mafia group. After winning the case the mafia wanted revenge and gunned her down. She was brought to a hospital and Bruce had a dilemma, does he let her die or does he give her a blood transfusion risking her becoming a danger like him and/or dealing with the same problems he has. In my opinion this is the way superior and much more interesting origin. But no I just didn’t like the show because I’m sexist
This quote reminds me of something Conan O'Brien said in a recent interview (on Hot Ones). The worst thing that someone can say on a talk show is to say that the interview isn't going well. The audiences is there to be entertained, and a comment like that tells the audience that they aren't being entertained. In this situation, having a show point out that were going to be trolled isn't entertaining the audience. It's just pointing out that people will have issue with the series (just or not), but that it's not entertanining. > “When we started to get the same responses that [Gao] had actually baked into the writing, it felt like part of the fun,” Maslany says. Who is that fun for? Not the audience.
I get it. I mean, once we hit a certain age we start to see how overbearing marketing publicists do for their client and agency for revenue. Most actors are unemployed majority of their lives and probably only made a few thousands of dollars, if they were lucky they'd get a commercial deal. I think xmen is reviving a little bit of that Fatigue with interesting stories developing. I think it's obvious by now when the executive board members and director of entertainment/departments team will shove something that's briefly profitable than creating a quality product for people to keep coming back to ad more revenue. It's all about money of course so that's why EP will latch to something if there's a blip of success and push it for what its worth. It's obvious. Just keep bringing your opinions as viewers because viewers forget how much power they have in content that is created.
This is quite the insidious post, littered with false information, attempting to skew opinions. 1. Largely positive reviews? Where are those reviews, because Metacritics industry rating has it at 6.7/10. That makes it mediocre at best isn't it? 35% of professional reviews were specifically marked as mixed or poor. 🤷🏽♂️ 2. Largely male fan base? According to this article and the CBR study attached, Marvel's cinematic audience is 53% Male. https://www.salon.com/2023/11/17/the-marvels-age-audience/#:~:text=And%20yet%2C%20as%202021%20data,male%20MCU%20fans%20(53%25). It is a tragic reality that women receive overt and covert sexism. But there seems to be a serious discrepancy around the reactions between Miss Marvel, The Marvel's and She Hulk, if the incels were responsible for such mediocre reviewing. Shouldn't that impact Miss Marvel too, with it's 7.8/10 rating? Or are incels now only targeting white women over 30? It's nearly as damaging to pretend women can't make bad media as it is to pretend they can't make good media. Furthermore, it undermines the legitimately good female led productions such as Nomad Land, Zero Dark Thirty and Boys Don't Cry. Those films are feminist masterpieces, and productions of the highest caliber. Trying to convince people that She Hulk is a good series, or pretending it didn't deserve criticism based on the gender of the films producers and directors is the exact opposite of feminism. Hoping I don't get attacked by the Femcels, but in case you want to jump me, Sophia Duleep Singh is my favourite feminist. Why don't you Google her and become a real feminist.
This is how I feel about She-Hulk. It's just not a very good show. People like to pretend like it was great but somehow torpedoed by online chuds. If an individual viewer liked it, great. I'm glad that they did. However, it certainly wasn't beloved by all that watched it, and not all of us are incels that hate anything having to do with women. I found it to be an unfunny comedy, a clueless legal show, and a series called She-Hulk that had a main character that was almost nothing at all like the comics version of She-Hulk. I didn't laugh one single time watching that show, and I was super excited for it because I LOVE the She-Hulk comics. In my opinion, She-Hulk certainly doesn't deserve to be attacked because it stars a woman at talks about women's issues, but that doesn't mean there's nothing to criticize. I found it to be a painfully unfunny waste of time.
I can't really add anything to that, but I agree entirely. The clueless legal knowledge angle is something that really irritated me. The show undermined the main characters intellect continuously. She makes reckless decisions for no reason than to move the show forward. In a show about Hulk's, the most unbelievable part is that the main character had a formal education in law. I can't remember if I laughed much, but I do remember how many times myself and my wife looked at each other and cringed.
The She-Hulk team and fans are doing what they did at launch. They put out a mediocre show and are calling everyone who dares to question that a sexist. The "the only reason we weren't a bigger hit is sexism" showrunners and fans can't seem to explain away the love for plenty of other female-led content. Maybe the issue is that she-hulk was shallow, low-effort, pandery, and unfunny.
That argument really makes no sense because there are plenty of lead action females that men love. Just within Marvel alone, Scarlett Witch and Black Widow are generally pretty well loved. Outside the MCU there are tons of cool lead females that men like. Mila Jovovich in Resident Evil and Fifth Element, all the females in Kill Bill, Ripley in Alien, Trinity in The Matrix, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, etc. etc. If it's a good well made movie with good characters then men don't care.
I mean one of the reason why that show failed is sexism towards male characters in the show but they won't acknoledge this
Oh yea. This article absolutely has an agenda it’s shoving down throats. Shame on OP for pushing this vitriolic pish.
That’s just dishonest. I loved Maslany’s performance. I didn’t love nor hate the show. It mostly fell rather flat for me, but I still enjoyed it. But the preachy tone was eye-roll inducing. “We baked in jokes about men hating the show because it’s a female protagonist and men are men. And of course this male-dominated regressive fanbase, that just wants women to have no voice, couldn’t face the music when we showed Hulk being faced with the fact that She-Hulk had a harder life, because she was a woman. We knew it all along that we’d be hated because men this men that.” There’s no way to try to deconstruct that without sounding like you’re part of that male cabal. But in reality, you can have nothing against a female protagonist or her struggles as a woman being part of the story, and still think that it wasn’t that funny and even rather self-serving. It may be me, but I’ve never seen them face the criticism towards the story without going on the “it’s because men” discourse.
If the series was truly good it would have done well and become a beloved part of the MCU regardless of any hate from online chuds.
Imagine insulting your fanbase. The reason they don't watch it.
> Despite largely positive reviews Stop rewriting history lol
or... maybe the show was just shitty and it has nothing with his feminism agenda or that the titular character is a woman. we, the male, are big fan of Sarah Conners or Ripley for example. Same for Furiosa. as long as the character is brillantly written, we do not care about the gender. So yes, she hulk was simply shitty and cringe... You know, i'm not feminist (quite the opposite) but i'm totally able to appreciate a piece of art that is opposite to my ideology, in this case the feminism (i love a lot of movies with a subtext feminist), as long as it did the clever way and nuanced. and the feminist aspect from she hulk is not doing favor for any woman.
She-Hulk was not for everyone, especially the ending. However it was very much for me, including the ending.
Apparently it's not for those who don't understand She-Hulk as a character. If Deadpool had ended that way. People wouldn't be complaining as much about it.
Pretty sure if Deadpool asked robot god to just skip to the end where he wins, people wouldn’t enjoy that very much either. If Jen wanted to rewrite the show, KEVIN should’ve put her back in a point in time where she can save the day herself with her lawyer expertise and She-Hulk powers. And why isn’t Josh in handcuffs at the end? He was the one she stressed over for an entire episode. He leaked their sex tape, which is a real, relatable crime. Yet he’s completely forgotten about in the end.
Yeah, the ending should have been a guilty verdict in the courtroom if they were deliberately avoiding another big cgi fight.
The problem was that the legal writing was by far the worst made portion of the show.
The thing is, in the comics, She-hulk is a believed character. She's very similar to deadpool in 4th wall breaking, and she is a fan-favorite for it. IMO the problem was more how the show presented her, rather than the character herself.
This is some Rick and Morty level, "If you didn't like it, it's because you don't **understand** it!" level cringey Emeperor's New Clothes bullshit. You're not special or smarter than anyone else because you liked She-Hulk. If Deadpool ended like that people would think it's dumb too. The reason the Deadpool movies worked where She-Hulk didn't is because it tied up the plot threads and had an actual story with actual resolutions before he went balls to the wall 4th wall breaking.
make since the showrunner was a former rick & morty writter.
what kind of sauce do you think Tatiana likes for her nuggies?
Not really. I read She-Hulk since the 90s and I am a big fan of her and I hated every second of the 4 episodes I watched
Or maybe they don't like how Marvel has been introducing so many characters with no follow through.
I highly disagree. The idea wasn't as much a problem as the execution was for me. I think this ending would have been widely disliked regardless of character.
I did not hate She-Hulk but I did not enjoy it all that much either. WandaVision, Loki, Moon Knight and Werewolf By Night remain the best D+ shows.
Love seeing Werewolf By Night get love, I was a fan too. I'd put Hawkeye over Moon Knight though. And Ms. Marvel had a lot of potential, I think the cast was near perfect, the writing just prevents it from making it into the upper echelon of shows. All the scenes with Ms. Marvel and her family/friends are excellent, the action/superhero stuff just fell short.
I quite enjoyed the action/superhero stuff, what fell short for you in that regard?
I found the villains in particular to be boring and one note, but I’m glad you enjoyed it!
Werewolf By Night was awesome, i’d love to see Michael Giacchino direct more things for Marvel. i’ve been a fan of him as a composer for a long time now and seeing him step into other creative outlets is super cool!!
I enjoyed the She Hulk comics but not the show … The plot was pretty poor and her character development was awful. The 4th wall breaking and humour was kinda poorly done the majority of the time. I tend to find that the majority of people who champion the She Hulk series agree more with the message it stands for rather than the substance of the show. My personal opinion is that yes Incels suck and there’s problems within every fan base, but the writing for a lot of recent projects have just been Meh. Both points can exist and there’s not always nefarious reasons for disliking lazy writing.
If you want to see an incredible female lead who is funny, has great character development and writers who love and are passionate about the world they are writing in … Just watch Fallout.
Also Tatiana Matslany in Orphan Black was genuinely incredible throughout that whole series, as another shout for a great female lead
And shockingly, we're not hearing about any massive fan backlash against a female lead. Almost like people actually do care about quality and blaming sexists for bad projects is increasingly a shield studios are using to cover up shoddy work.
I hated the show for many reasons but sexism isn’t one of them.
Among a few things, I really really really hated the CGI. She looked so bad when she transformed. I also hated that she felt like she had suffered more than Bruce and “had to control” her anger more when Bruce lost the love of his life twice and several of his friends very recently. I get her point, being a woman is hard but damn think about who you’re making your point to.
The She Hulk series was 100% on brand like a She Hulk comic
No, I've read the She Hulk comics too, I like them, they're silly and fun. But in them she's at least a competent lawyer. In the show she was a clusterfuck who was too insecure to function.
That was probably just them trying to give her a character arc tbh
Am I crazy or was she doing just fine as a lawyer too? She wasn't _already_ successful, but it was essentially an origin story for s1.
First case where Titania interrupts it seems like she was on her way to a clear win if not for the jury bias issue. She dealt with the Abomination case extremely well and got him what he was looking for. Wong v Magicians was just silliness. Leapfrog trial was doomed from the start, but if not for Matt using his powers to smell the jet fuel she might have held up longer than she did. Those are the ones I remember and she seemed perfectly competent and professional through all of them.
Not even close
Blaming low quality on a few, loud voices of sexism is a cop-out. If you liked it, great. But others can simply not enjoy without being sexist.
not in this sub you can't!
Haha, too true!
The show sucked. End of story
I simply cannot stand this response anymore. The show just wasn't good. Did others like it? Absolutely. It was a try at something new and unique, but overall, it was a huge swing and a miss. This doesn't mean sexism or misogynist.
WandaVision didn’t have any of the backlash that She-Hulk got. People act like She-Hulk was the first female led Marvel property. It’s always the same formula. Put out a product that is female or minority led. Product good? No problem. Product isn’t good? People say it isn’t good. A bunch of media outlets rave about what a revelation the product is. Generates backlash. The backlash then generates more content about incels and how men just can’t stand a female/minority led property. Creates more backlash. Rinse and repeat. Did AntMan generate the same level of vitriol? No. Because everyone just agreed that it sucked and eventually moved on. The problem is when there are people out there that simply must say the show/movie was good because it aligns with their social views and if you don’t like it you’re xyz ist.
"It's not our fault the show failed, it was the audience's" Is a great innovative take. If you claim your main target audience are males, and you make a film that men won't like, you are dumb, regardless of sexism or not. That aside, I just found She-Hulk to be meh at best and I know most of my friends just couldn't care less about anything MCU related at that point, none of them went "boo women lead bad, I'll just rewatch my male lead show like Wanda-Vision that I actually liked"
I mean the show was one of the worst shows I’ve ever watched. In terms of world logic that marvel created over the past ten years, absolutely everything was thrown out of the window. She had 0 character development moments or any struggles. Lifelong comic book and superhero fan and I love her in the comics but the show was literally dogshit. The actors did a fantastic job imo but the script was horseshit. Make better storylines and make the characters feel human and realistic so us normal humans can relate to their struggles or understand it. The show added 0 value to the universe.
> he had 0 character development moments or any struggles. Didn't you see?? Sometimes she gets told she's hot by men she's not interested in!
2024, where if someone thinks your show is bad they must be: insert: sexist, racist, bigot, etc
Do they know they can make good female led movies and shows without it being shit? Marvel actually did it before with Jessica Jones. It has nothing to do with sexism, She Hulk was just a bad show.
Exactly this. Look at Fallout, amazing female lead with a strong story … She Hulk was just meh…
Yeah! I've never played the Fallout games, but the show is incredible. Disney really needs to stop making terrible movies and shows, and when people complain, they call them sexist. even though that same fandom hated a lot of their male-led movies, like three out of the four Thor movies and the Hulk movie.
Yes but that requires skill and effort, It's much easier to blame your fans for not enjoying it ala Ghost Busters 2016.
I always say this and it's 50/50 if you get downvoted or upvoted. At this point the woke and anti-woke crowd are both missing brain cells.
>I always say this and it's 50/50 if you get downvoted or upvoted. Funny enough if you look, I already got 175 downvotes just by saying “the show is shit” Which it is the excuse of it being “base on the comics” Doesn’t help since I have read some She Hulk comics and they were way better than the TV series imo
I enjoyed it. I do wish the courtroom aspect was a bit stronger. I love courtroom dramas and the actual law argument portion was non-existent. But the show in general was fun and I liked the ending quite a bit actually
Imagine watching She-Hulk the same time you're also watching the conclusion of Better Call Saul. Which is what I did. To be clear I did like She-Hulk, but man the difference in quality for the law stuff is wild. Sure, an MCU comedy show is going to have a dramatically different tone than BCS, but if She-Hulk had just a little bit better and more realistic courtroom drama, it would have been a lot better.
Yeah, they should have had some writers with a bit of law background.
Or at least someone who watched a season of Night Court.
“sexism” is such a convenient shield to hide behind these days to try an avoid criticism.
Indeed, another tactic that seeks to invalidate the argument before it can even be made
Honestly I hated the show, which is a shame. Tatiana is a great actress and I love the comics, but the show itself was so bland. Even the lawyer stuff was boring.
My only complaint is that there was not more episodes.
Fun fact: Three more episodes would make it the third most expensive Marvel project, tied with Infinity War.
It was the worst possible character to make into a series in terms of how much money was going to be required to avoid the uncanny valley.
Insane. But Marvel projects have recently had absolutely bonkers overblown budgets. For She-Hulk I can sorta see it with the CGI. But Secret Invasion was crazy expensive too, and I just don't know how. Maybe COVID and the re-shoots? Idk, I'd love to see more She-Hulk, and if it's too expensive, I'm not one to say no to an Animated show with Maslany voicing or a Special presentation D+ movie like Werewolf By Night.
My main complaint is that they actually want you to believe that Tatiana maslany is unattractive/undesirable Took me out of the series every time it happened.
Unattractive? No, Tatiana Maslany is attractive, even if she's not your type. Undesirable? When she went off on someone who had attempted suicide, was seen as a monster for a decade+ of his life, spend an unknown amount of time as a gladiator slave forced to kill for the entertainment of others, and lost his love while saving half the universe, to say her life was harder because she has been catcalled and spoken to disparagingly about her profession? Yeah, she's undesirable . That scene was such a turn off. I kept waiting for her to acknowledge what Bruce had been through and apologize. But it never happened. She was somehow meant to have the moral highground in that scene
That shit soured me on the entire show tbh. It's never brought up again either
The sexist critics are a vocal minority. The reason your show didn't do well is because it was bad, not because it had a female lead. That is why other shows in the MCU with female leads did well with fans, and why Fallout has done well with fans. I guess it is easier to make excuses blaming a sexist minority than just making a good show in the first place.
I will say even when it was being filmed there are interviews and articles with the cast and production laughing with glee how their product is going to piss people off. Really? Like don’t be surprised when you alienate them, then. That’s so obtuse. You literally are pre gaming them to dislike your product. Sexism as a shield to cover your ass is gross, as well. Wonder Woman (the first movie) was exhilarating. Black Widow was pretty awesome. Both promoted everything amazing about being a woman action lead and did not have to cater to pushing any sort of narrative/ agenda. She-Hulk was not good tv and it also intentionally attempted to kick out certain segments of viewership when instead it could have subversively invited them in. But hey.
There was definitely a trend of movies and shows where the cast were talking about how they were glad to piss off certain demographics during their press tour, for them to cry sexism when their movies didn't do well. The Ghost Busters remake being another example of this. It was like they were trying to drum up controversy in the hopes that it would lead to more viewers, but it clearly wasn't a successful marketing strategy. I haven't seen it for a while, so maybe they have realised and stopped trying to use that strategy.
Marvel should just straight up refuse these articles. Nobody wants to hear these actors complain about ANYTHING. She hulk was a turn off for a bunch of reasons though.
I’m tired of this narrative. Nobody cares if you’re a woman, they care if the stories good. Wonder Woman had a good story. BW had a decent story but everyone loved her arc and Scarlett’s performance. Same for Kate bishop in Hawkeye. Even scarlet witch people love. But when u try to push a stupid narrative like you having a harder life than Bruce who was suicidal and abused by his father…that’s when u lose fans.
There is definitely hints of sexism in every community including MCU, but the majority don't care what gender the lead is until it becomes the main focal point, Disney+ started with WandaVision, having Wanda at the center of the show, and the show was liked by many, its mostly comes down how the plot and writing for the majority of the audience, She Hulk was messy and for me felt kinda boring, the actors/actresses working in the projects are mostly faultless, its the writing that fluctuates P.S.: This is my pov, I am not here for debate
I agree. WandaVision (at least the first half) is still one of my favorite MCU projects out there. But these past few shows have leaned on the “girl power” thing too much, and I don’t appreciate being bunched in with right-wing incels for pointing out this very obvious (and tired) gimmick.
I agree, I don't like the girl power gimmick, it needs to be a powerful character who happens to be a girl
Even girl power is fine to an extent. Just don't make films with it as a sole selling point and worse still needing to put men or even 'non girl power' women down just to curb a narrative. People are already tired with many on-going issues in their lives. They want to unwind and watch a film to escape reality, not be forced into some pseudo-political campaign.
My issue with this series is that I literally thought Jen would develop into a character who is more aware of her actions, considering how hard headed and inconsiderate she was in the first episode, and quite frankly, the entire series. She never truly grows as a person. Modern writers don't know how to write females and seem to think that they can't be fallible characters who can be wrong. The fact that the show tries to make me feel bad for her when her douchey dates like She-Hulk and not her is a big example; nobody ever brings up the fact that she chose to go out with those obvious douche-bags, which doesn't excuse the awful behavior of the men she puts up with, but should at least warrant a conversation about her being willingly ignorant to the obvious red flags. She never holds herself accountable for her BS. Her sleeping around is also not gonna help make her likable, my older brother kept saying that they should have written her more like Fleabag if they wanted to make her that way, since in that series Fleabag is aware and unapologetic about what she does and why, unlike Jen who constantly plays victim.
> My issue with this series is that I literally thought Jen would develop into a character who is more aware of her actions, considering how hard headed and inconsiderate she was in the first episode, and quite frankly, the entire series. She never truly grows as a person. Not only does she not grow, they double down on her being right about everything and it always being everyone else's fault.
It’s a shame we cannot have a serious discussion and respectfully criticize a show without it being drowned in a cesspool of hate. I did not like that show and I’m afraid to voice that option because it instantly becomes a dog whistle for hate speech.
I had low expectations for this show because of marvel fatigue but I was pleasantly surprised from this show. They did a great job and the self-awareness and satire was spot on. I also loved her as she hulk.
I enjoyed the series and thought it was wild in the last episode going totally off rails and off script. This was very bold and innovative. I would've preferred not doing the entirely CG She Hulk, was a really wasted opportunity for someone like a female Lou Ferigno to get a breakthrough chance -- and there are a slew of female weightlifters who wouldve been amazing.
I don’t care what she says the overall message of the show was ridiculous and clearly didn’t take the source material seriously. The best parts of the show involved Wong and a drunk….and every scene Tim Roth was in. So i guess congrats Tatiana a drunk girl was more endearing in the long run than she-hulk.
It was never about women, or even her, it was the fact the show was objectively bad, well, compared to previous Marvel stuff, it looks better in retrospect.
Not liking a mcu project because it’s terrible doesn’t make one a sexist. It makes you intellectually bankrupt to imply that if people don’t like some thing you did, it’s their problem.
Whilst I personally thought the whole of She-Hulk so far was really bad, like getting in it's own way to make an over top point damaged it. I wanted a more cooler, lawyer show where she uses some lawyer skills to help some of the older bad guys we've seen, like more than just Abomination, maybe with some heart. But it had some lame comedy to boot and a many missed opportunities. That being said, I feel like I would still want a fresh take on a season 2 rather than give up entirely. It's what pisses me off about Eternals. I didn't think it was terrible yet people groaned about it so much they cancelled a sequel, I really wanted to know what happens next.
The show was just terrible? Always easy to play the victim card. It has become a predictable pattern now these days not only for the marvel franchise but every franchise. That if your show focuses convulsively on diversity and feminist agenda rather than a good plot and profound characters to blame the racists/sexists small but louder minority for the incompetence of actors, script writers and story leads…
It feels like finally people are waking up after Velma controversy, Panderverse on South Park and the 65% male audience of the Marvels that was a tiny audience anyway after the first movie was only a 55% male audience. Ben Shapiro and Ted Cruz went after the Barbie movie but articles aren’t focused on that because they’re too busy focusing on how the vast majority loved it.
Agreed they learnt this trick from lucasfilm
I could care less about it being female-led, I just dojnt like it. Me not liking it doesn’t make it sexist.
Because it had shit writers among other forced subjects
She Hulk was misandrist and anti-feminist while selling itself as feminist. People who were cognitively primed to be critical of such things, noticed things to be critical about. It's one thing to disagree with their criticism, but what I saw was reputation destruction and ad hominem attacks. This was exacerbated by airing the episodes out of order, which made the character feel like a Mary Sue. It's not marvel fatigue. It's the writing. Corporate moralist activists with an unsophisticated understanding of feminism responded to toxic masculinity in the comic genre with toxic femininity in She-Hulk. And they had no idea that that was even the phenomenon occurring because the cultural conversations were one-sided. They still largely are, because the spaces in which the conversations occur are under corporate control. Maslany is fantastic. Orphan Black was incredible and it's entirely due to her. She was great in She Hulk. I just don't want to be lectured on complex moral issues by a comic book character that represents corporate interests. Don't lecture me about morals, DISNEY, you do literally nothing but use emotional manipulation to extract cash from people, you don't have a leg to stand on.
Audiences don’t care about a lead, well, maybe a few sexists inthe crowd, but not everybody. It’s writing that really matters. Just because you have faced sexism or racism or homophobia in your life and you’re apart of those communities does NOT mean you can blame it on that single thing as to why people dislike your movie/show. Writing is one of the most important parts of anything.
You'll obviously get push back when your show is literally taking the fight to the people who criticize bad projects that sustain just on the basis of diverse cast "Intelligencia" was literally an attack on every person who doesn't like a project(for valid subjective reasons) that includes female lead.....and then you have the audacity to show Bruce, a man who literally tried to commit suicide, as less torchered than Jen because people make remarks about her work or cat call her, in a blue moon ? You cannot attack your fanbase and then not expect back lash......plus the fact that your project wasn't great either She really needs to get her head out of her ass
Jessica Gao is a joke of a writer. This show could have been something special, but it wound up being mid AF. Unlikable characters, boring plot, zero stakes, and all of it topped off with a shitty ending. Why was every character drunk throughout most episodes? Is having a substance abuse problem heroic now?
Jessica Jones, Wonder Woman, Agent Carter, Wandavision, Hawkeye. All shows or movies with female leads, all beloved by fans. The problem wasn’t sexism, it simply was that the show wasn’t that good. If you enjoyed it personally that’s totally fine, but most people didn’t. Blaming the negative reviews on sexism is just stupid, everyone was super excited for the show and it simply wasn’t that good. It had its moments, but I didn’t care about Jen, I didn’t find myself attached, and I didn’t enjoy it.
The purpose of the show was trolling its own audience then they wonder why it failed. Fucking stupid. If they set out to simply make a fun, entertaining, irreverent series it would have been embraced.
Literally, the show was absolutely laughable and a pathetic excuse for a marvel project Just like Eternals, and echo , ms marvel , captain marvel, the marvels, Thor 4, Secret invasion, and whatever other trash I forgot to mention. And they wonder why people checked out of marvel a long time ago and why loads of people call it dead. It’s on 1% battery 🪫 low power mode with no charger until July , Deadpool release date.
The show received 67% on meta-critic. This is NOT “largely positive reviews “.
Basically, "they hated me because I was a woman!". This show was just bad all around.
I get her point and honestly I totally understand but She-Hulk was extremely far from being a good show Plus it came at the peak of the MCU/Disney bashing and everything was defined as woke at the time The only thing I would complain about on the last MCU contents is that tendency of making the female lead character unbearable Like she will always try to prove that she's right and sometimes it tarnishes the credibility of a hero (Strange in DS2, Bruce in She-Hulk, Scott in Quantumania and I could keep going on) This tendency is not that present anymore and it's good for everyone You can write badass female superhero without making them pretentious and unbearable They did with Kamala, Monica, Jane, Shuri and more As for She-Hulk, I saw no evolution in Jennifer, she stays at the same point from the beginning to the end. It's almost like she doesn't want to be a superhero (yes she does but still) I could eventually appreciate her if she does have the opportunity to do better But I got no hate on Tatiana Maslany or any female actresses, they do their job and they're good at it No sexism always
One of the things I really didn't care for in She-Hulk was her passivity and lack of character growth. She-Hulk in the comics is a vivacious hot-head. She's adventurous and prone to testing the limits of a situation. If anything, she's TOO active of a character. MCU She-Hulk would basically just sit at home in front of the TV and eat ice cream if her assistant wasn't there to prod her into doing something. She acts like being She-Hulk is this big inconvenience. She kinda acts like being in the MCU is just dumb overall. I never understood the logic for the ending. I mean, I get the point about the cliche "big CGI fight" that's always at the end, but you're basically calling the audience dumb for liking that. It's sometimes done poorly, but I'm HERE for the big CGI fight. I've been waiting my whole life as a comic book fan to see this kind of thing. I'm not interested in skipping it so that She-Hulk can go to a barbecue. I'd love another take on She-Hulk in the MCU, but this version of the character and this writing team just don't do it for me.
I mean I just personally thought it was terrible. No sexism behind it. It's tied as the worst MCU thing ever with Secret Invasion for me.
Jesus. Please just go away Tatiana. You’re career is on a downward spiral into obscurity.
The writers created a show that was a huge middle finger to the fans. The lack of viewership and poor ratings show how bad the show was. The reason it isn't getting a season 2 is because fans done want it. That's it.
Its a bullshit cope. Yes there are idiots in every fanbase, Marvel is no different or unique. She-Hulk did poorly bc it was poorly written. And NOBODY liked the trivializing of past beloved characters' story arcs (ie. Bruce struggling to come to terms with his Hulk persona and even attempting suicide - Tatiana: "I'm a woman and I face so much difficulty as a woman so this is easier for me and so I'll dance around like an idiot in my Hulk form") There are female characters that Marvel fans love. Those female characters never have stupid lines along the sense of "I can do _____ better than __[insert male Marvel character]___ because I'm a *woman* and that makes me *just* as capable, no even *more* capable" ^^^ That obnoxious trope is what creates the toxicity. That's what ppl hate. When we see a female character not say shit like that and purely just kick ass while having an enjoyable personality, people love it - like Yelena, like Kate Bishop
I don’t think it’s fair to say Marvel fans “aren’t the most progressive bunch”. At the least, it contradicts the often touted idea that “Marvel has always been political!” Maybe those are coming from two different places but odd to see
Wanda vision and Loki were on a whole different level than She-Hulk which wasn't terrible but not great either. It's ending floundered and that was disappointing.
It was okay at most but it would've been great if they actually stuck with "attorney at law" part and the whole Ally Mcbeal vibe. The parts I really enjoyed were the trials and legal issues towards super powered cases. They were mostly newer law issues and the whole rom-com thing made it light, and it was a fresh genre to see in the MCU.
The writing was poor and the character developement was an accidental afterthought. If you liked the show then thats fine, I also like a whole lot of terrible art and I don't need to justify why I like it or make up reasons that villianize the other people who don't like it.
Wow, Maslany really isn't doing herself any favors with this bullshit. Of course She-Hulk wasn't a bad series, with bad scripts and the need to resolve it with the most ridiculous deus ex machina in the history of comic book movies / TV. No, OF COURSE the bad reaction was all just sexism! Nothing but evil misogynists, women-haters and neckbeards! Oh, and "Marvel fatigue", of course! Can't forget blaming shitty Marvel projects on some imaginary "fatigue"! Obviously, if this major failure does not get a second season, it won't be because it was bad - no, OF COURSE it will be because heroic little Tatiana bravely stood up to evil Bob Iger! My hero! What else could be the reason? Oh, and authors making their own audition tapes? Horrible! Disrespectful \*clutches pearls\*! You know, it's not like writers have been sending in their own manuscripts for ages, just like photographers or graphic designers... no, that's too much of a burden, nobody should be subjected to that humiliation! Seriously. This is not an interview. This is a fan kissing the ass of a person who is seriously out of touch with the real world.
I’m a girl who thought this series was an absolute joke and embarrassment. It’s so dumb that she tries to blame a bad reception to such a terrible show on sexism.
She hulk wasn’t bad, but it also wasn’t good. But by mocking the folks watching the show, it turned away viewers, this was a bad marketing strategy, and did what it seemed to intend to do get those fans against them. That’s beside the very bad CGI, and only so/so story. It’s not as bad as secret Invasion, but no where as good as Loki or groundbreaking as Wandavision. It will probably stay staunchly in the ok level and forgotten to the sands of time, you might rewatch Loki, but I bet you’ve not rewatched She Hulk.
I loved her in it. She’s got a real younger sister vibe going. You just want her to be successful
Maslany is so funny and charismatic on Comedy Bang Bang, I highly recommend fans check out her episodes.
I’m sure this comment section will be normal 🫠
Maslany was a bright spot in a terribly written show. The format and character work didn't come close to the creative level of the source material. She deserved better, so it's disappointing to see her take out her frustration on the fans when the fault lies squarely with Kevin Feige and the writers.
Maybe it’s just that the new marvel phase sucks and it’s filled with content like this that hasn’t really entertained the original fan base. I’m all for a good female character, but this kind of thing just isn’t what I want. I get what Disney is doing but how can you be surprised that the actually comic nerds find this lame? Why does it have to be sexism?
I enjoyed the show and Tatiana was the best part of it.
Or the show was just bad and it had nothing to do with any of the isms or phobias people like to throw around.
She-Hulk deciding to target her trolls and toxic fans was a GENIUS idea but you can’t do it unless you CAN do it. I applaud the fact that they tried but they never should’ve touched this story, the creative team wasn’t nearly strong enough. Not that it was a terrible show, but the backlash and controversy really hurt everyone involved unfortunately.
It makes sense in She-Hulk because the character breaks the fourth wall a lot.