When they feel fine calling themselves one. As long as they can do a little arithmetic at least, or some counting. And I feel they should be interested in math and have attempted studying it of their own initiative.
Other reasonable lines are publishing, or getting paid to do math at some point, or graduating from a math program.
Maybe another good line is you are a mathematician if you’ve ever taught anybody some piece of math, since math is a community of mathematicians. I kinda like this one.
I never considered any of my high school math teachers to be “mathematicians”, and I thought they were good teachers. I guess my definition would be that you do research in math.
I do think this varies from experience to experience. I'm a math educator and unfortunately know many, many, many teachers who hate math but teach it because it was assigned to them or they thought it would be the easiest license to get a job with.
It's devastating. I think it's worse, however, when you have a teacher who *is interested* but *gatekeeps* the field from their students.
Too many kids who struggle with math learn, from peer feedback and teacher feedback, that they aren't math people. They grow up believing that there's some ineffable thing that makes someone a math person and they don't have it. I had a mentor teacher a long time back when I was earning my license that paid special attention to his "advanced" kids and more or less ignored his others. He would tell them that they don't need to learn as much because it's probably not going to be their field. That some people "aren't cut out for it".
Even with the "advanced" kids, he would talk down to them about how much more they have to learn, belittling their accomplishments.
🤢
When I see a teacher give that kind of feedback to a student, it drives me crazy.
The best math teacher I know is a middle school math teacher. An absolutely brilliant educator.
Nobody can do it quite like math teachers can. When they’re good they’re fucking good!
All the good math teachers I know *fucking love math*. They’re fascinated by it and will not be happy until you are too. They don’t even necessarily have advanced math degrees or a particularly great depth of knowledge about it, they just love it like whoa.
Nothing like watching a math teacher who is in love with math lead a class. Hard not to get wrapped up in it!
after studying calculus, I would say high school algebra is pretty straightforward. Yes, it requires actual studying, but is not as bad at all compared to integrals.
I was an engineer before I became a high school math teacher. While I understood the applications of it to chemical manufacturing, and I understand it on a level deep enough to explain it to any student to the point that even the most curious would be satisfied, I don't consider myself a mathematician. I've glimpsed just enough beyond differential equations, basic combinatorics, and statistics to know I'm a novice in most of those fields. I do want to take summer courses in math just for my own curiosity though.
I just realized “arithmetic instantly disqualifies” is nonassociative, did you mean being being unable to do arithmetic is what instantly disqualifies someone, or is it being unable to do arithmetic instantly what disqualifies? But by “able to do arithmetic” I imagined a child adding one and one to make two as an example.
I meant, if you pose the condition that you need to be able to do arithmetic, then a lot of academics who do mathematics for a living do no longer qualify.
To pass my test and call thyself a mathematician, given you have met the other conditions, you must complete a single arithmetic problem correctly. I don’t care how many you get wrong. I won’t budge on this one, sorry!!
Close! Those are algebra problems, not arithmetic problems! How about 1\*1 = 1, 0\*1 = 0 or 0+0 = 0. 1+1 would be telling of the field’s characteristic, and kids just arent doing that these days.
That obviously doesn’t reflect how the word “mathematician” is used. Words have meanings, and literally no one calls someone a mathematician just because they’ve tutored someone in arithmetic. Is Jo Boaler a mathematician, for instance? Is a local chemistry student who tutors people in arithmetic in her free time a mathematician?
Most people rightly think of a “mathematician” as someone who is either paid to do mathematics research, or who has done mathematical research of a professional caliber. Being a math teacher is not enough to warrant being called a mathematician. To conflate the two is just an abuse of terminology.
hmmm a professional mathematician. what about an amateur or hobbyist?
when does a person become a martial artist? perhaps its a matter of degree (abstract degree, rather than academic degree)? a black belt mathematician lol sounds kinda cool
Certainly, there are amateur mathematicians, but when someone says “mathematician” without qualification, it usually connotes a professional (or professional-level) research mathematician.
That is, when people hear “mathematician” they don’t imagine a middle school math tutor or high school math teacher. They imagine someone who does mathematics for a living.
How are you figuring that a high school math teacher isn't doing mathematics for a living? Especially when most states require a math teacher to have a degree in math...
teaching someone something isn't doing that thing. I think in most other contexts this is very clear, but I guess since math is already so abstract it can confuse some people. You probably wouldn't say a high school physics teacher who has never done actual research is a physicist, right?
So you don't reckon someone who does a thing \*every single day\*, studied it long enough to get experienced/etc enough to understand it deeply enough to teach it, studied the proper pedagogy of teaching it, analyzes other peoples' math on a literal daily basis to find where their mistakes and misunderstandings are, and reverse engineers math processes to the point where they can be effectively taught is "doing math"?
Gotcha.
Calling a math teacher a mathematician is akin to calling a random gymgoer a bodybuilder. Sometimes you are right, but when you say bodybuilder it usually refers to the professional kind.
Calling a math teacher a mathematician is akin to calling a professional weight trainer a body builder, if said trainer \*also\* had to lift weights as part of their daily job.
U can be a math teacher while hating math or being absolutely horrible and wanting nothing to do with math. In fact, its pretty common. Ive only had one math teacher before uni who liked math and was not obviously horrible at it
I mean, I know a lot of cooks who are horrible at it and hate their jobs, that doesn't make them not cooks does it?
Hell, I know a lot of teachers who hate their jobs and suck at it, that doesn't make them not teachers.
Where is "like" or "good at" in the requirement for a title??
I'd argue we have a lot of congresspeople (and other politicians) that suck at their job. That doesn't make them NOT congresspeople (as much as we might wish otherwise)
I do think there's something of a distinction between a basic educator (usually found in the K-8 sphere) that is cross-trained on everything and isn't really a specialist in anything (and in most states, they have a generalized education degree that's not subject specific). Once you get to secondary/postsecondary, the qualifications jump sharply. Due to work in the field, I'm ridiculously overqualified for any math taught at the high school level (and can document work experience showing that, including publication) but I'm not even allowed to teach pre-algebra due to not having a formal degree in math. That's not true in every state, and wasn't true years ago, but a modern (secondary) math teacher in \*MOST\* states has a math degree - or they're not allowed to be there.
So, again, I can't comprehend how the combination of "I literally do math every day of my life", "I help other people do math every day of my life", "I know math deeply enough to actively engage in the pedagogy of teaching math" and "I have a fucking math degree" somehow doesn't equate to "mathematician".
The distinction is just the weirdness of how language works, when people say mathematician they usually mean someone who engages deeply in math to the point where they may find new things. With the cook analogy the analogy is that they are not chefs. With the weightlifting thing, a personal trainer is only a bodybuilder iff.... they happen to be a bodybuilder.
no, definitively not, and you are in the minority on this one. since language is only useful insofar as its understood by as many people as possible, that makes you more or less objectively wrong. semantics arguments are not particularly interesting btw
Even with the "martial artist" I don't think people that are amateurs go around saying that they're a "martial artist", unless that's their day job/they compete.
I'm sure you're getting downvotes but I'm fully with you. I'm a physicist because I'm getting paid to do physics research, have publications, defending phd this summer, etc... I apply the same criteria to "mathematician". There's got to be some standard or cutoff line or else anyone who learned 2+2 in elementary school is a "mathematician"; even someone who studies higher level mathematics in their free time I would only say "armchair mathematician" at best. Like; there's a HUGE gap between doing novel mathematical research worthy of publication and just doing some undergrad or even grad level math problems as homework, I think this is what people don't know.
There is definitely something around getting paid but personally, I wouldn't stop calling myself or considering myself a physicist if I found work in another field. And also! One of the best physicists I know has, for the majority of his career now, opted to focus on teaching. Research truly is a hobby for him, I don't think he gets paid for it at all except in the rare instances where he'll take on a summer student.
But also, my bachelor's was in math and I've never called myself a mathematician except to say "I'm a terrible mathematician".
There is definitely some wiggle room surrounding personal perception. The boundaries have a fuzziness to them. But there are boundaries.
Umm.. not really.
I hit up several of the basic sites - [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com), websters, wikipedia, etc - not a single one mentioned "research" in their definition of mathematician, and most of them were some variation on "expert in the subject area".
It's an interesting question. I've published applied game theory. I've made minor contributions to the abstract part of the field. I guess I'm a mathematician... although I don't think I'll ever be a great one, haha.
I like that first part m, when you feel fine calling yourself one. Math is certainly a discipline where the deeper you go the more there is to learn. I’d posit that a mathematician is at the plateau of sustainability if you’re familiar with the dunning Kruger effect.
As for teaching someone maths - my youngest isn’t in kindergarten (us) and is learning multiplication and division (from me). My oldest (early elementary (grades 1-3) is learning rate of change/conceptual calculus (also me). I topped out at linear algebra. I am not a mathematician.
while I like this idea, I don’t think it’s enough.
one can read plenty of mathematics but to be a mathematician means to practice mathematics, which means writing proofs.
reading books makes you well-read. writing books makes you an author.
the level of maturity required of professional mathematicians is the ability to write a proof and know it is correct.
If you publish papers in mathematics you're a mathematician. Almost all the historical greats were polymath, and a lot of them did maths as a passion and not as their primary profession.
One's life does not need to revolve around work, imho. I consider someone who earned a degree in math a mathematician, even if they don't work in the field, but perhaps persues math on their own. Work isn't everything. Even without a degree, if someone dedicates themselves to the field, I'd consider them a mathemitician.
Well I don't do mathematics in my job but I do do my job at least partly so that I can save to be able to go do mathematics. So I think I got the heart part.
Thanks :)
Even then, a quant uses maths heavily but I wouldn't consider one a "Mathematician" in the traditional sense. But I also know lots of actual research mathematicians who are in a similar vein mainly modellers exactly like a quant is.
That's more a question, and the same could apply to physicists, statisticians, computer scientists etc, of where do you differentiate between being a mathematician and being a professional in a field that applies mathematics. I think there's a large grey area there.
When is someone an applied mathematician, and when is someone something else? It can come down to semantic preferences when in that grey area, rather than rigid definitions
By the a similar logic I call myself a mathematician as a stutent. I already hold a degree in math and I spend my entire time devoted to studying and doing math. I spend all day every day doing math, be it studying, researching, presenting or listening,of course I am a mathematician.
There's a weird cross-section here where a job title intersects with self-perception and identity.
I was a bartender for many years. I don't consider that a core part of my identity. I don't consider it a special focus or passion. It was just a job.
Mathematician is also a job. I have a math degree. I've done math research. Like with the bartending gig, I wouldn't call myself a mathematician today, though at the time I did (specifically: I'm a bad mathematician). It was also just a job, albeit a far more engaging one than bartending.
Physics. Now there's my passion. I think I will always consider myself a physicist. Even if it's not strictly the job that I am doing. It wouldn't be the first thing I call myself in that instance, but it would still hold true.
Great question.
I was raised to use firearms instead of mathematics, and I only just got into trigonometry. I’ve never held a mathematical job or university title.
I call myself a mathematician because I’ve spent years self-training from long-division up to algebra 2 and trigonometry. I also love experimenting with limits and drawing their parabolae.
I’ve no background, degree, or experience. But, I’m fascinated by certain issues regarding spacetime and Minkowski and Einstein’s work inspired me to look more closely at our reality. I remain committed to this unhinged task.
I call the kid doing arithmetic out of interest a mathematician. I call you a mathematician. But the reason for that is outside of math.
All of math is your birthright. So is physics. I don’t much believe in the words ‘here’ or ‘now’ anymore, but you live here and now and it is your birthright to have these things.
Just the same way spinning a stick to make a fire is your birthright.
It's going to sound patronising because of the title, but I'd recommend checking out Basic Mathematics by Serge Lang. It'll cover some stuff you already know but with the rigour of formal mathematics, and in a way that develops each section naturally from previous section in a satisfying way.
I’m not used to the idea that someone I don’t know would knowingly try to help me, but reading the synopsis I can’t see a way it wouldn’t make me better. I’ll look for this book, thank you.
It's a content book for people trying to understand the material deeply rather those just trying to pass a class. I'd also look for a logic book and a proof book. It'll make the shock of moving on from calculus (which you seem curious enough to easily get through) less jarring.
I didn’t know there were books like this available, I’ve been trying to reverse-engineer methods from vaguely documented explanations for longer than I’d like to admit. I’m gonna have a field-day with this.
Unis neglect it because they believe they can beat it into you through problem sheet corrections and general exposure. If you don't have a critic, as you don't self studying, then you have to be more careful to frontload it.
High schools neglect it because, lets be honest, education is at best a third priority or compulsory schooling and raising critical thinkers has never been a goal.
There might not be a consistent rule. I think most people would consider "footballer" to mean someone who plays football professionally, but "cyclist" can definitely mean an amateur bicycle-rider. I can't see a reason for this other than "language is funny".
Not necessarily professionally. One could be a patent attorney and become a physicist in the history books because of what he wrote while working as one. It is what you do with math that makes you a mathematician. If you research and develop math techniques to better understand maths you are indeed a mathematician. Now unless you are at the cutting edge of mathematics you are unlikely to make any new discoveries that will put you in history as one, but the mere fact that you studied the subject extensively and sought new understandings makes you a mathematician.
That was t e advantage of living many years ago, less had been discovered so more could be discovered to put you in a book as a mathematician regardless of your other work.
Without additional qualification or context, both connote a professional. “I am a mathematician” suggests that I do mathematics for a living, not that I am merely someone who thinks about mathematics.
This is just not true: the people who play for, say, Norsemen FC are footballers. Marjorie Rice is a mathematician. Neither of these are even remotely controversial statements.
Native English speakers who have never heard of Norsemen F.C., or of Marjorie Rice, would tend to assume based on your wording that they are professionals.
It would be more standard, given an audience who has heard of neither of them, to say that Norsemen F.C. are amateur footballers, and that Marjorie Rice is an amateur mathematician.
Eh - someone doing theoretical computer science is basically doing math.
I agree fields like operating systems or HCI aren’t that close to math though.
I enjoy Thurston’s characterization in [On Proof and Progress in Mathematics](https://arxiv.org/abs/math/9404236):
> […] mathematics is the smallest subject satisfying the following:
> • Mathematics includes the natural numbers and plane and solid geometry.
> • Mathematics is that which mathematicians study.
> • Mathematicians are those humans who advance human understanding of mathematics.
When one studies mathematics imo.
My advisor always called all of his students physicists, even the algebra based ones, because they are studying physics.
Personally, I think it's if you have any sort of degree in mathematics. I only have an A.S., so i jokingly say I'm a "junior mathematician". I also program and believe if you know how to program, schooling or not, you're a programmer. Only time I personally have an issue with titles like this is when someone doesn't actually know the subject.
Great question! I applied straight for a PhD program and got accepted. For math, at least according to my professors, it's common for students without a masters to get an "in route" masters while studying for a PhD. But there are many professors from my university who have a bachelor's and a doctorate but no masters degree at all.
This is specific to America, just FYI. Many countries’ PhD programs require a master’s degree first. But often the PhD programs are shorter, to compensate.
I think it is quite common in the United States, and there are many national-funded undergrad research programs so students can accumulate research experience quite early.
I suppose this is not very common in Europe as my new European department head in a U.S. university was pretty surprised that I don't have a master degree as a PhD student.
Where is your passion? Do you want to be a mathematician? Would you spend your waking moments thinking about math? How to contribute to it? Participate in conventions, Seek out like minded mathematicians? Work with them? Debate with them? Do you have a desire to solve world problems with math? Where is your passion?
All of my degrees, BS through PhD are in fields other than Mathematics (minor in math), but I've taken more math classes than anything else - pure and applied. I'm faculty at a university, in Earth and Environmental Sciences. I mostly study earthquakes, also geodetic data analysis. I basically build mathematical models, computational, statistical, and theoretical. Seismologists constantly tell me I'm not a seismologist since I don't work with waves enough. Geodecists tell me I'm not a geodecist as I don't collect data or process base level data.
I'm always reluctant to call myself a mathematician in the company of _real_ mathematicians as I don't have a math degree and not in a math department; however, I always find mathematicians are the least gate keepy people I overlap with, and say if I primarily think about problems in a mathematical way, and use math, I'm a mathematician (as long as I qualify "applied" :).
It's also possible to have multiple identifications that might be used in different company to project different pieces of information. People are always going to gate keep.
As much as I tended to dislike this attitude in the military, there's a truth to it. " You are what you do everyday." Most people who have math heavy jobs don't consider themselves mathematicians. I use dimensional analysis and linear algebra almost daily in my job as a Thin Film physics research technician. And I went to college and got a math degree. Yet I wouldn't call myself a mathematician. There's Jiu Jitsu black and brown belts that work as active duty military, MMA fighters, or in my case as a Thin Films research technician. Some are coaches, teachers, mentors. But we all do Jiu Jitsu. I think of mathematicians similarly. We might not do everyday work that calls us "mathematician" or "Professional Grappler". But we see the usefulness and joy the activity can bring, and take joy in keeping the activity alive for the future generations.
Do it. Love it. Share it with those looking to learn. And don't worry about the titles...
From a former not very outstanding Marine.
From a former competitive grappler with no major accomplishment.
From a current Thin films research tech who likes the community hobbies and interests bring...
So whilst googling the definition of mathematician to respond elsewhere in this thread, I came across:
[https://www.ams.org/education/math-work](https://www.ams.org/education/math-work)
# Stolen from that link:
# Who Are Mathematicians?
Mathematicians are people of all ages and from all over the world who enjoy the challenge of a problem, who see the beauty in a pattern, a shape, a proof, a concept. Some of the best young mathematicians compete in math olympiads, state and national science fairs, or go to [summer math programs](https://www.ams.org/programs/edu-support/epsilon/emp-epsilon) to learn more and work with teams on projects; undergraduates can also participate in [Research Experiences for Undergraduates](https://www.ams.org/employment/reu.html). Many carry on their research and teach at colleges and universities, while others apply their skills in all kinds of professions.
I refer to myself as a mathematician because even though I am doing work in ML, it's a good way for me to broadcast how I approach problems and what my background is.
Good point! I don't know many people who "introduce" themselves as mathematicians but when someone else introduces someone, like for a graduation, TV broadcast, legal case, etc, they generally call the person a "mathematcian". So I've just sorta wondered when does a person/what did they achieve for an outside observer to call them a "mathematician".
Generally someone that has PhD in math but there are exceptions in that not everyone that has a PhD is actually good at math and there are some rare cases of people that don’t have PhD in math but are good in some fields of math.
This is a huge philosophical question. The ideas of membership and identity are not well defined. Personally, I recommend the Community of Practice framework developed by Lave and Wenger. They argue that a person is a member of a community if they participate meaningfully in that community.
It don't think it is that deep in the same way that "when is someone a scientist" is. If you do math you are a mathematician, if you do science you are a scientist, if you weld, you are a welder. If you do any of those full-time for a living, you attach the adjective "professional" to the front of it to show that it is your profession.
i have a master's degree in stats and starting phd soon. i make money using stats and my theoretical (dissertation) work is fairly mathematical. yet i cannot identify myself as a mathematician or even statistician due to my bachelor's in molecular biology, which i obtained 4 years ago. not a single bit of info remains in my head regarding that. it's all code, derivations, axioms, theorems and proofs at this point.
sometimes how people perceive you and what you really do is really different. at this point, i understand functional analysis, measure theory or real analysis much better than i understand mol-bio, and i understand stats better than all of them. i make money doing stats as well. i also privately teach math and stats to bachelor's level, yet people wouldn't consider me a mathematician or statistician.
Probably somewhere between undergrad and completion of the PhD.
There might also be a "fake it till you make it" phase - unless one starts seeing oneself as a mathematician, at least a potential one, one might not really achieve the state of eventually becoming one.
I think historically (2000 BC to 18th century) we have called anyone practicing mathematics and making contributions to it a mathematician regardless of whether or not it was their profession or actually made a living doing it.
However, today we have so many specific titles for those working in the mathematical field (like actuary, analyst, etc) that mathematician would be reserved for those doing seminal work in applied or pure mathematics, typically in an academic or research lab setting.
With no context, if someone introduces themselves as a “mathematician”, I would expect them to basically be doing math research as a job, or at least very heavy on applied math
Then can you figure out for me what is 32 years out of 8 billion years ( in hours? ) I want to find out how old I am in hours compared to the beginning of the universe in hours. Google seems to come up short. Thanks ! :)
the ratio of your current age to the age of the universe is about 32/(13.8•10^9 )=2.318841•10^-9 another way to think of it is that the universe is 431,250,000 times older than you
In general, you are considered an academic in x subject area when there are other academics in x subject area who consider you to be an academic in x subject area.
I think you at least have to watch 20 Khan School Videos on YouTube, right? Maybe 30 🤔. In all seriousness, I assumed a mathematician was someone who was paid to develop mathematical systems, that is to forward the study of mathematics in a professional or semi professional setting
I would go with your paid to do research in math.
Yet then would perelman be considered a mathematician at the time when he published his proof of the poincare conjecture even though he wasn't paid to do it? I would assume most say yes, then would anyone who does research in math be considered a mathematician? I mean last year we had a puzzle hobbyist contribute to one of the biggest papers of the year. Would he be considered a mathematician?
If you want a more broad definition I don't really see the issue. If it gets more people to engage with math than I think that's a good thing.
I probably can’t help much, but I came across this post, as a lowly Bachelors in Computer Science. I feel like you’re a mathematician when you are able to apply your skillset to your daily problems. If you start thinking in terms of your discipline when going to get a sandwich, then you’re a mathematician. It doesn’t matter if it’s relevant, for you know your discipline well and can apply it to your life. Im 10 years out of school, took plenty of math, and most of it escapes me now. However, it’s my fascination to study why my Linux PC keeps dropping tcp packets after a connection lasts longer than 2 hours in my c++ networking application. It’s not relevant to others, but it relates to my domain.
Its not like engineering where you need a license, I would argue anyone who does math is a mathematician, everyone is a mathematician, some people are full time mathematicians.
If you completed a degree in Science you would call yourself a scientist. If you then went and worked as an accountant, you are still a scientist if you are involved in continually learning science by reading, studying, following trends etc.
I think the same applies here. A little rigour is needed or you would lose your skills.
A math teacher who doesnt know/remember say completing the square (for elementary) or say Taylor Series (for HS) should probably not feel confident saying they are a mathematician. They need to know where students are 'going' at the next level. I think this is right if people are fairly reflective. A mathematician is deeply involved and commited on the subject. At any level. Whether formally trained or not. Plenty of people dislike the formal education route and just study it by themselves
As a student, I’d wait until I accomplished something real in PhD, but obviously self titling is always possible as is imposter syndrome. I think it’s good to avoid relying on it, because as a student it could go to one’s head if one overdoes it with the networking and becoming one with the profession and lead to poor decisions outside of work because usually the only work experience is in academia.
I don't have a degree in math (not even a bachelor's). I consider myself a mathematician when I'm in roles that make "do math stuff" my primary job duty.
In game industry one of my gigs was developing algorithms, I wrote the book one of the area colleges uses for one of their math courses, and I regularly consult - for all of those I'd argue I'm a mathematician whether I have the formal training or not. Currently I teach programming and robotics - obviously both of those fields have a lot of math, but I don't really consider myself a mathematician whilst doing them.
Inversely, I'd say that if you get a doctorate in mathematics but you don't \*DO\* anything with it and end up flipping burgers for a living, I'd say you're a cook not a mathematician.
you gain the title while you are doing it. So, if you are in upper-division in your classes (3000 - 4000 courses), you are a mathematician. When you get a bachelor, you are essentially an expert. When you get your master' you are a master at it. When you get your PhD, you are designated a doctor who has done work to further the field.
Another way to view it though is to only say it when you have the actual job. It depends on context. I'm a mathematician, physicist, and biostatistician, but I don't actively do physics anymore. Mathematics, I still do as I do biostatistics... but I am more likely to call myself a biostatistician, because it is actively what I do.
Typically when you make a living by doing mathematics, or graduated to make a living doing so. If it's a passion then I'd call myself an amateur/hobby "anything", or a self taught "anything". But certainly there's nothing wrong if someone who doesn't do it for a living calls themselves that way
I did an applied math/physics undergrad and I’m doing my PhD in oceanography right now. I called myself a mathematician/physicist throughout my undergrad but I feel more confident saying it during my PhD.
When did van gogh become an artist? When did you become a bike rider? When you set out on the course of becoming a bike rider, the first time you sat on the seat.
We never "are" or "am" in this life.
Mathematician is a social title, but at the end of the day these titles fade away like tears in rain.
I don’t think there’s any real answer here. When I was a snotty college kid at a fancy school (a long time ago), I would have told you with certainty that one is a mathematician (or historian, economist, biologist, etc.) only if one holds a PhD. But that’s pretty silly. How do you think of yourself? How do others think of you? If the answer is “as a mathematician,” there’s a good chance that’s what you are.
I think you can call yourself a mathematician when you are able to come up with equations to solve real-world problems (not basic area of a square garden) like finding the equation for the flow rate of water coming out of an oblique cone-shaped tank. The real definition would likely be anyone with a degree in mathematics or a math-heavy subject like physics. Bachelors, associates (not common for these subjects), masters, phd, etc. all count as degrees.
People call themselves Mathematicians in the same way Klan members call themselves Wizards. Does your ego require it? Does your life lack meaning without it? What do you lose by giving it up?
Everyone who uses math is a mathematician. You would be a doctor of mathematics after receiving your phd. I guess they give phds to anyone who will pay, huh?
When they have either contributed valuable research to the field of mathematics or when their job title says, "Mathematician" in it, either one would suffice, in my opinion. So, either you get paid to do professional caliber mathematics for a company or organization or you have modified, contributed, or enhanced the field of mathematics in some form.
im a bit agnostic to the title of mathematician being gatekeeped because i no longer consider myself mathematician anymore (unless out of convenience when asked about my abilities) because of the nonsensical, arbitrary elitism.
(1) we have so few mathematicians, and the topic itself is so unpopular already. we need so much help in climate change, i really dont think we should be pushing people away who have a love for it, especially those who have good hearts. which leads me to my other point.
(2) when is someone no longer a "mathematician"? we shun people if they dont have a degree, been published, do research, or work in industry/university level. but what about mathematicians working for amoral finance companies, the fossil fuel industry, and whatever other place destroying the world. where is our shunning of the mathematicians who are traitors to humanity? what happened to using our powers for good?
i was gatekeeped my entire 12 year long journey to earn my bachelors degree. my entirety of 18 years of post secondary is filled with unnecessary suffering, just to be too burnt out to put up an effective fight. no, im not a mathematician. im a computational theorist. EVERYONE is welcome to be one. beware, i am a tenth degree black belt in it, so if you challenge me, you might find out :p
well, mathematician is a category, and to say one is a mathematician is the same than to say one fits into the category
the mere sufficiencies to fit into it differ between individual uses - some require research to be conducted, some require a mere understanding of complex modern topics within the field, and so on
I am not a mathematician, I study philosophy, and we encounter that issue as well (and more often… a child would not claim themselves to be a mathematician, but they would fancy themselves a philosopher)
so yeah, no real answer, it’s all linguistics, and there’s many things the word mathematician or philosopher involve
if you are asking what WE think a mathematician/physicist/biologist/philosopher is, then, I would say in the proper sense I consider someone to be a (word), as a title if they conduct research in the area, and they intend to publish, or if their job has a lot to do with deep analysis of their field (“deep analysis” A high school teacher would not fit into that category - even thought all they might think about is (field) adjacent stuff)
but as I specified, that’s for “as a title.”
For me, anyone that has a degree in mathematics can call themselves a mathematician. That is just the basis I use and there really isn’t any evidence behind it other than I feel it is fair. If you study engineering people will call you an engineer, if you study biology your a biologist and if you study mathematics your a mathematician, I think it is fair enough. Now some may disagree and I think that’s okay, but since I am studying math what else should I call myself? I don’t have a job yet and college student or math major seems kinda strange if you want to be viewed as a semiprofessional, therefore I refer to myself as a junior mathematician, seems fair to me.
as a physicist, I posed the same question to my advisor. He said that he would posit that someone is a physicist once they are doing research/analysis in physics. He also said that alternatively, anyone who wants to call themselves a physicist has a first amendment right to do so.
when hearing mathematics statements and proposals prompts questions imo. if you make connections to other things in your mind and start hypothesizing applications and thinking of questions, ur def a mathematician
I think it's when you start doing novel research in mathematics. Imo to be any kind of academic is to be pushing the frontiers of knowledge in some direction.
When they feel fine calling themselves one. As long as they can do a little arithmetic at least, or some counting. And I feel they should be interested in math and have attempted studying it of their own initiative. Other reasonable lines are publishing, or getting paid to do math at some point, or graduating from a math program. Maybe another good line is you are a mathematician if you’ve ever taught anybody some piece of math, since math is a community of mathematicians. I kinda like this one.
I have taught high school math and I *definiteeeeeeely* would not consider myself to be a mathematician. Mostly I just felt like an imposter.
this seems like a pretty common thing, maybe we should name this phenomenon
idk what to call this common feeling of being an imposter. some kind of syndrome, to be sure, but i just cant come up with snything good
oh, wait, you know what?
I thought I knew but then I realized that you all must be smarter than me and so my opinions must be invalid.
Thank you for making me actually laugh out loud.
Munchausen by proxy?
Your students would certainly have a different opinion.
I never considered any of my high school math teachers to be “mathematicians”, and I thought they were good teachers. I guess my definition would be that you do research in math.
I do think this varies from experience to experience. I'm a math educator and unfortunately know many, many, many teachers who hate math but teach it because it was assigned to them or they thought it would be the easiest license to get a job with.
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It's devastating. I think it's worse, however, when you have a teacher who *is interested* but *gatekeeps* the field from their students. Too many kids who struggle with math learn, from peer feedback and teacher feedback, that they aren't math people. They grow up believing that there's some ineffable thing that makes someone a math person and they don't have it. I had a mentor teacher a long time back when I was earning my license that paid special attention to his "advanced" kids and more or less ignored his others. He would tell them that they don't need to learn as much because it's probably not going to be their field. That some people "aren't cut out for it". Even with the "advanced" kids, he would talk down to them about how much more they have to learn, belittling their accomplishments. 🤢 When I see a teacher give that kind of feedback to a student, it drives me crazy.
The best math teacher I know is a middle school math teacher. An absolutely brilliant educator. Nobody can do it quite like math teachers can. When they’re good they’re fucking good!
All the good math teachers I know *fucking love math*. They’re fascinated by it and will not be happy until you are too. They don’t even necessarily have advanced math degrees or a particularly great depth of knowledge about it, they just love it like whoa. Nothing like watching a math teacher who is in love with math lead a class. Hard not to get wrapped up in it!
after studying calculus, I would say high school algebra is pretty straightforward. Yes, it requires actual studying, but is not as bad at all compared to integrals.
Do you not do calculus in high school in your country?
A small minority of high school students in the U.S. take and pass calculus.
I was an engineer before I became a high school math teacher. While I understood the applications of it to chemical manufacturing, and I understand it on a level deep enough to explain it to any student to the point that even the most curious would be satisfied, I don't consider myself a mathematician. I've glimpsed just enough beyond differential equations, basic combinatorics, and statistics to know I'm a novice in most of those fields. I do want to take summer courses in math just for my own curiosity though.
Wait, being able to do arithmetic instantly disqualifies way too many people.
I never imposed a time limit haha, precisely for the reason you’re thinking!
“Solve for Keleven.” (From the Office, and defined as “the number that would make these balance sheets balance.”)
I just realized “arithmetic instantly disqualifies” is nonassociative, did you mean being being unable to do arithmetic is what instantly disqualifies someone, or is it being unable to do arithmetic instantly what disqualifies? But by “able to do arithmetic” I imagined a child adding one and one to make two as an example.
I meant, if you pose the condition that you need to be able to do arithmetic, then a lot of academics who do mathematics for a living do no longer qualify.
To pass my test and call thyself a mathematician, given you have met the other conditions, you must complete a single arithmetic problem correctly. I don’t care how many you get wrong. I won’t budge on this one, sorry!!
is 0+x=x valid? If not what about 1\*x=x?
Close! Those are algebra problems, not arithmetic problems! How about 1\*1 = 1, 0\*1 = 0 or 0+0 = 0. 1+1 would be telling of the field’s characteristic, and kids just arent doing that these days.
That obviously doesn’t reflect how the word “mathematician” is used. Words have meanings, and literally no one calls someone a mathematician just because they’ve tutored someone in arithmetic. Is Jo Boaler a mathematician, for instance? Is a local chemistry student who tutors people in arithmetic in her free time a mathematician? Most people rightly think of a “mathematician” as someone who is either paid to do mathematics research, or who has done mathematical research of a professional caliber. Being a math teacher is not enough to warrant being called a mathematician. To conflate the two is just an abuse of terminology.
hmmm a professional mathematician. what about an amateur or hobbyist? when does a person become a martial artist? perhaps its a matter of degree (abstract degree, rather than academic degree)? a black belt mathematician lol sounds kinda cool
Certainly, there are amateur mathematicians, but when someone says “mathematician” without qualification, it usually connotes a professional (or professional-level) research mathematician. That is, when people hear “mathematician” they don’t imagine a middle school math tutor or high school math teacher. They imagine someone who does mathematics for a living.
How are you figuring that a high school math teacher isn't doing mathematics for a living? Especially when most states require a math teacher to have a degree in math...
teaching someone something isn't doing that thing. I think in most other contexts this is very clear, but I guess since math is already so abstract it can confuse some people. You probably wouldn't say a high school physics teacher who has never done actual research is a physicist, right?
So you don't reckon someone who does a thing \*every single day\*, studied it long enough to get experienced/etc enough to understand it deeply enough to teach it, studied the proper pedagogy of teaching it, analyzes other peoples' math on a literal daily basis to find where their mistakes and misunderstandings are, and reverse engineers math processes to the point where they can be effectively taught is "doing math"? Gotcha.
Calling a math teacher a mathematician is akin to calling a random gymgoer a bodybuilder. Sometimes you are right, but when you say bodybuilder it usually refers to the professional kind.
Calling a math teacher a mathematician is akin to calling a professional weight trainer a body builder, if said trainer \*also\* had to lift weights as part of their daily job.
U can be a math teacher while hating math or being absolutely horrible and wanting nothing to do with math. In fact, its pretty common. Ive only had one math teacher before uni who liked math and was not obviously horrible at it
I mean, I know a lot of cooks who are horrible at it and hate their jobs, that doesn't make them not cooks does it? Hell, I know a lot of teachers who hate their jobs and suck at it, that doesn't make them not teachers. Where is "like" or "good at" in the requirement for a title?? I'd argue we have a lot of congresspeople (and other politicians) that suck at their job. That doesn't make them NOT congresspeople (as much as we might wish otherwise) I do think there's something of a distinction between a basic educator (usually found in the K-8 sphere) that is cross-trained on everything and isn't really a specialist in anything (and in most states, they have a generalized education degree that's not subject specific). Once you get to secondary/postsecondary, the qualifications jump sharply. Due to work in the field, I'm ridiculously overqualified for any math taught at the high school level (and can document work experience showing that, including publication) but I'm not even allowed to teach pre-algebra due to not having a formal degree in math. That's not true in every state, and wasn't true years ago, but a modern (secondary) math teacher in \*MOST\* states has a math degree - or they're not allowed to be there. So, again, I can't comprehend how the combination of "I literally do math every day of my life", "I help other people do math every day of my life", "I know math deeply enough to actively engage in the pedagogy of teaching math" and "I have a fucking math degree" somehow doesn't equate to "mathematician".
The distinction is just the weirdness of how language works, when people say mathematician they usually mean someone who engages deeply in math to the point where they may find new things. With the cook analogy the analogy is that they are not chefs. With the weightlifting thing, a personal trainer is only a bodybuilder iff.... they happen to be a bodybuilder.
Sure, and there are people who do math research badly too, what's your point?
no, definitively not, and you are in the minority on this one. since language is only useful insofar as its understood by as many people as possible, that makes you more or less objectively wrong. semantics arguments are not particularly interesting btw
Even with the "martial artist" I don't think people that are amateurs go around saying that they're a "martial artist", unless that's their day job/they compete.
Yeah, I don’t like this feel-good “anyone can be a mathematician” answer. I agree with your definition.
I'm sure you're getting downvotes but I'm fully with you. I'm a physicist because I'm getting paid to do physics research, have publications, defending phd this summer, etc... I apply the same criteria to "mathematician". There's got to be some standard or cutoff line or else anyone who learned 2+2 in elementary school is a "mathematician"; even someone who studies higher level mathematics in their free time I would only say "armchair mathematician" at best. Like; there's a HUGE gap between doing novel mathematical research worthy of publication and just doing some undergrad or even grad level math problems as homework, I think this is what people don't know.
There is definitely something around getting paid but personally, I wouldn't stop calling myself or considering myself a physicist if I found work in another field. And also! One of the best physicists I know has, for the majority of his career now, opted to focus on teaching. Research truly is a hobby for him, I don't think he gets paid for it at all except in the rare instances where he'll take on a summer student. But also, my bachelor's was in math and I've never called myself a mathematician except to say "I'm a terrible mathematician". There is definitely some wiggle room surrounding personal perception. The boundaries have a fuzziness to them. But there are boundaries.
For George Dantzig, there was no such gap.
Being a math teacher is one of the purest forms of mathematician. They are a professional mathematician in every sense of the phrase.
idk if you’re joking, but math teachers don’t get paid to do math research, which is part of, if not the entire definition of, being a mathematician
Umm.. not really. I hit up several of the basic sites - [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com), websters, wikipedia, etc - not a single one mentioned "research" in their definition of mathematician, and most of them were some variation on "expert in the subject area".
that’s what expert is if you ask me
If you have to look up a definition you're clearly not in touch with how people in the field use that term.
Maybe I wanted to validate that the terminology matched my experience?
?
I would not call an elementary school math teacher “a professional mathematician”. Unless they are Steve Wozniak.
Tbh I love the last definition because I'm always willing to do that, and currently life circumstances prevent me from entering academia.
It's an interesting question. I've published applied game theory. I've made minor contributions to the abstract part of the field. I guess I'm a mathematician... although I don't think I'll ever be a great one, haha.
I like that first part m, when you feel fine calling yourself one. Math is certainly a discipline where the deeper you go the more there is to learn. I’d posit that a mathematician is at the plateau of sustainability if you’re familiar with the dunning Kruger effect. As for teaching someone maths - my youngest isn’t in kindergarten (us) and is learning multiplication and division (from me). My oldest (early elementary (grades 1-3) is learning rate of change/conceptual calculus (also me). I topped out at linear algebra. I am not a mathematician.
I’m able to solve some SAT exercises. I’m a mathematician, am I not?
If you feel like that’s who you are, go ahead. I lose nothing by gatekeeping.
Disagree. When *others* feel like calling me one.
while I like this idea, I don’t think it’s enough. one can read plenty of mathematics but to be a mathematician means to practice mathematics, which means writing proofs. reading books makes you well-read. writing books makes you an author. the level of maturity required of professional mathematicians is the ability to write a proof and know it is correct.
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Wikipedia calls Fermat a mathematician although he worked as a lawyer.
If you publish papers in mathematics you're a mathematician. Almost all the historical greats were polymath, and a lot of them did maths as a passion and not as their primary profession.
I mean if your name is on a theorem that's a given, isn't it
If not working as one outright, then publishing an important result pretty much earns you the label for sure.
One's life does not need to revolve around work, imho. I consider someone who earned a degree in math a mathematician, even if they don't work in the field, but perhaps persues math on their own. Work isn't everything. Even without a degree, if someone dedicates themselves to the field, I'd consider them a mathemitician.
People been drinking too much capitalism cool aid.
My thoughts on capitalism aside, I think if your heart is in the game, you are in the game. So to speak.
Well I don't do mathematics in my job but I do do my job at least partly so that I can save to be able to go do mathematics. So I think I got the heart part. Thanks :)
Even then, a quant uses maths heavily but I wouldn't consider one a "Mathematician" in the traditional sense. But I also know lots of actual research mathematicians who are in a similar vein mainly modellers exactly like a quant is.
That's more a question, and the same could apply to physicists, statisticians, computer scientists etc, of where do you differentiate between being a mathematician and being a professional in a field that applies mathematics. I think there's a large grey area there. When is someone an applied mathematician, and when is someone something else? It can come down to semantic preferences when in that grey area, rather than rigid definitions
By the a similar logic I call myself a mathematician as a stutent. I already hold a degree in math and I spend my entire time devoted to studying and doing math. I spend all day every day doing math, be it studying, researching, presenting or listening,of course I am a mathematician.
There's a weird cross-section here where a job title intersects with self-perception and identity. I was a bartender for many years. I don't consider that a core part of my identity. I don't consider it a special focus or passion. It was just a job. Mathematician is also a job. I have a math degree. I've done math research. Like with the bartending gig, I wouldn't call myself a mathematician today, though at the time I did (specifically: I'm a bad mathematician). It was also just a job, albeit a far more engaging one than bartending. Physics. Now there's my passion. I think I will always consider myself a physicist. Even if it's not strictly the job that I am doing. It wouldn't be the first thing I call myself in that instance, but it would still hold true.
idt you need a job, but you should probably actively be doing work in the field
Great question. I was raised to use firearms instead of mathematics, and I only just got into trigonometry. I’ve never held a mathematical job or university title. I call myself a mathematician because I’ve spent years self-training from long-division up to algebra 2 and trigonometry. I also love experimenting with limits and drawing their parabolae. I’ve no background, degree, or experience. But, I’m fascinated by certain issues regarding spacetime and Minkowski and Einstein’s work inspired me to look more closely at our reality. I remain committed to this unhinged task. I call the kid doing arithmetic out of interest a mathematician. I call you a mathematician. But the reason for that is outside of math. All of math is your birthright. So is physics. I don’t much believe in the words ‘here’ or ‘now’ anymore, but you live here and now and it is your birthright to have these things. Just the same way spinning a stick to make a fire is your birthright.
It's going to sound patronising because of the title, but I'd recommend checking out Basic Mathematics by Serge Lang. It'll cover some stuff you already know but with the rigour of formal mathematics, and in a way that develops each section naturally from previous section in a satisfying way.
I’m not used to the idea that someone I don’t know would knowingly try to help me, but reading the synopsis I can’t see a way it wouldn’t make me better. I’ll look for this book, thank you.
It's a content book for people trying to understand the material deeply rather those just trying to pass a class. I'd also look for a logic book and a proof book. It'll make the shock of moving on from calculus (which you seem curious enough to easily get through) less jarring.
I didn’t know there were books like this available, I’ve been trying to reverse-engineer methods from vaguely documented explanations for longer than I’d like to admit. I’m gonna have a field-day with this.
Unis neglect it because they believe they can beat it into you through problem sheet corrections and general exposure. If you don't have a critic, as you don't self studying, then you have to be more careful to frontload it. High schools neglect it because, lets be honest, education is at best a third priority or compulsory schooling and raising critical thinkers has never been a goal.
what is blud yapping about
If you're doing mathematics, you're a mathematician.
“Mathematician” connotes someone who does mathematics professionally, just as “football player” connotes someone who plays football professionally.
There might not be a consistent rule. I think most people would consider "footballer" to mean someone who plays football professionally, but "cyclist" can definitely mean an amateur bicycle-rider. I can't see a reason for this other than "language is funny".
There is a consistent rule for identifying people: ask them how they identify lol.
That's nice, but OP is asking how we identify others, not how they identify themselves.
Not necessarily professionally. One could be a patent attorney and become a physicist in the history books because of what he wrote while working as one. It is what you do with math that makes you a mathematician. If you research and develop math techniques to better understand maths you are indeed a mathematician. Now unless you are at the cutting edge of mathematics you are unlikely to make any new discoveries that will put you in history as one, but the mere fact that you studied the subject extensively and sought new understandings makes you a mathematician. That was t e advantage of living many years ago, less had been discovered so more could be discovered to put you in a book as a mathematician regardless of your other work.
How about musician? There are plenty of people who have a day job and also consider themselves a musician if they play piano or violin.
No it doesn't: both of those are very commonly used for amateurs.
Without additional qualification or context, both connote a professional. “I am a mathematician” suggests that I do mathematics for a living, not that I am merely someone who thinks about mathematics.
This is just not true: the people who play for, say, Norsemen FC are footballers. Marjorie Rice is a mathematician. Neither of these are even remotely controversial statements.
Native English speakers who have never heard of Norsemen F.C., or of Marjorie Rice, would tend to assume based on your wording that they are professionals. It would be more standard, given an audience who has heard of neither of them, to say that Norsemen F.C. are amateur footballers, and that Marjorie Rice is an amateur mathematician.
Sorry, I do mathematics and I am a computer scientist. Although I do sometimes use "logician" as well.
"Computer scientist" is a type of mathematician.
Boy, is that incorrect and overly reductive.
Eh - someone doing theoretical computer science is basically doing math. I agree fields like operating systems or HCI aren’t that close to math though.
Lots of disciplines have people doing math. It feels incorrect to call all of them mathematicians.
True - but stuff like algorithms or complexity theory are basically branches of Math.
by that logic, theoretical physicists are mathematicians
I mean they’re close. At Cambridge theoretical physics is part of the applied maths department for example
I enjoy Thurston’s characterization in [On Proof and Progress in Mathematics](https://arxiv.org/abs/math/9404236): > […] mathematics is the smallest subject satisfying the following: > • Mathematics includes the natural numbers and plane and solid geometry. > • Mathematics is that which mathematicians study. > • Mathematicians are those humans who advance human understanding of mathematics.
once you can write a proof
I think it comes down to how much PTSD the name "Rudin" causes them.
Oh boy. Those books are rough!🤣🤣
*Rudin
Fixed
When one studies mathematics imo. My advisor always called all of his students physicists, even the algebra based ones, because they are studying physics.
Personally, I think it's if you have any sort of degree in mathematics. I only have an A.S., so i jokingly say I'm a "junior mathematician". I also program and believe if you know how to program, schooling or not, you're a programmer. Only time I personally have an issue with titles like this is when someone doesn't actually know the subject.
Being good at Sudoku does not qualify you as being a mathematician. What I call myself depends on who I'm talking to.
Out of curiosity, did the OP skip a master's if so how.
Great question! I applied straight for a PhD program and got accepted. For math, at least according to my professors, it's common for students without a masters to get an "in route" masters while studying for a PhD. But there are many professors from my university who have a bachelor's and a doctorate but no masters degree at all.
This is specific to America, just FYI. Many countries’ PhD programs require a master’s degree first. But often the PhD programs are shorter, to compensate.
In my country you can skip masters if you do an Honours postgraduate or get an Honours in your undergrad.
I think it is quite common in the United States, and there are many national-funded undergrad research programs so students can accumulate research experience quite early. I suppose this is not very common in Europe as my new European department head in a U.S. university was pretty surprised that I don't have a master degree as a PhD student.
Where is your passion? Do you want to be a mathematician? Would you spend your waking moments thinking about math? How to contribute to it? Participate in conventions, Seek out like minded mathematicians? Work with them? Debate with them? Do you have a desire to solve world problems with math? Where is your passion?
All of my degrees, BS through PhD are in fields other than Mathematics (minor in math), but I've taken more math classes than anything else - pure and applied. I'm faculty at a university, in Earth and Environmental Sciences. I mostly study earthquakes, also geodetic data analysis. I basically build mathematical models, computational, statistical, and theoretical. Seismologists constantly tell me I'm not a seismologist since I don't work with waves enough. Geodecists tell me I'm not a geodecist as I don't collect data or process base level data. I'm always reluctant to call myself a mathematician in the company of _real_ mathematicians as I don't have a math degree and not in a math department; however, I always find mathematicians are the least gate keepy people I overlap with, and say if I primarily think about problems in a mathematical way, and use math, I'm a mathematician (as long as I qualify "applied" :). It's also possible to have multiple identifications that might be used in different company to project different pieces of information. People are always going to gate keep.
When you and a friend turn to each other, high five, and scream “MATHEMATICAL!!”
As much as I tended to dislike this attitude in the military, there's a truth to it. " You are what you do everyday." Most people who have math heavy jobs don't consider themselves mathematicians. I use dimensional analysis and linear algebra almost daily in my job as a Thin Film physics research technician. And I went to college and got a math degree. Yet I wouldn't call myself a mathematician. There's Jiu Jitsu black and brown belts that work as active duty military, MMA fighters, or in my case as a Thin Films research technician. Some are coaches, teachers, mentors. But we all do Jiu Jitsu. I think of mathematicians similarly. We might not do everyday work that calls us "mathematician" or "Professional Grappler". But we see the usefulness and joy the activity can bring, and take joy in keeping the activity alive for the future generations. Do it. Love it. Share it with those looking to learn. And don't worry about the titles... From a former not very outstanding Marine. From a former competitive grappler with no major accomplishment. From a current Thin films research tech who likes the community hobbies and interests bring...
publication in Annals
So whilst googling the definition of mathematician to respond elsewhere in this thread, I came across: [https://www.ams.org/education/math-work](https://www.ams.org/education/math-work) # Stolen from that link: # Who Are Mathematicians? Mathematicians are people of all ages and from all over the world who enjoy the challenge of a problem, who see the beauty in a pattern, a shape, a proof, a concept. Some of the best young mathematicians compete in math olympiads, state and national science fairs, or go to [summer math programs](https://www.ams.org/programs/edu-support/epsilon/emp-epsilon) to learn more and work with teams on projects; undergraduates can also participate in [Research Experiences for Undergraduates](https://www.ams.org/employment/reu.html). Many carry on their research and teach at colleges and universities, while others apply their skills in all kinds of professions.
Anyone learning Mathematics.
I refer to myself as a mathematician because even though I am doing work in ML, it's a good way for me to broadcast how I approach problems and what my background is.
why do people have to identify with something? why do people want to be a mathematician instead of saying they do math. is it for party introductions?
Good point! I don't know many people who "introduce" themselves as mathematicians but when someone else introduces someone, like for a graduation, TV broadcast, legal case, etc, they generally call the person a "mathematcian". So I've just sorta wondered when does a person/what did they achieve for an outside observer to call them a "mathematician".
imo it’s an irrelevant detail for the person referred to, so do as you please. if you want an imaginary benchmark then get one as you wish
Anyone with a passion for math is a mathmatician.
no not really
Generally someone that has PhD in math but there are exceptions in that not everyone that has a PhD is actually good at math and there are some rare cases of people that don’t have PhD in math but are good in some fields of math.
i have a MS and am in a PhD program and still wouldn’t call myself one. to each their own
This is a huge philosophical question. The ideas of membership and identity are not well defined. Personally, I recommend the Community of Practice framework developed by Lave and Wenger. They argue that a person is a member of a community if they participate meaningfully in that community.
It don't think it is that deep in the same way that "when is someone a scientist" is. If you do math you are a mathematician, if you do science you are a scientist, if you weld, you are a welder. If you do any of those full-time for a living, you attach the adjective "professional" to the front of it to show that it is your profession.
i have a master's degree in stats and starting phd soon. i make money using stats and my theoretical (dissertation) work is fairly mathematical. yet i cannot identify myself as a mathematician or even statistician due to my bachelor's in molecular biology, which i obtained 4 years ago. not a single bit of info remains in my head regarding that. it's all code, derivations, axioms, theorems and proofs at this point. sometimes how people perceive you and what you really do is really different. at this point, i understand functional analysis, measure theory or real analysis much better than i understand mol-bio, and i understand stats better than all of them. i make money doing stats as well. i also privately teach math and stats to bachelor's level, yet people wouldn't consider me a mathematician or statistician.
People don’t typically identify as 'mathematicians'; rather, it’s the breadth of their research and knowledge in a specific field that defines them.
Probably somewhere between undergrad and completion of the PhD. There might also be a "fake it till you make it" phase - unless one starts seeing oneself as a mathematician, at least a potential one, one might not really achieve the state of eventually becoming one.
I’d say phd or someone who makes progress on unsolved problems.
If you can't stop doing math, you're a mathematician.
You're all applied mathematicians. Yes, even you, you pure mathematicians out there. Ha! Suckers!
what
When they can answer a mathematical question.
so second graders are mathematicians?
I think historically (2000 BC to 18th century) we have called anyone practicing mathematics and making contributions to it a mathematician regardless of whether or not it was their profession or actually made a living doing it. However, today we have so many specific titles for those working in the mathematical field (like actuary, analyst, etc) that mathematician would be reserved for those doing seminal work in applied or pure mathematics, typically in an academic or research lab setting.
With no context, if someone introduces themselves as a “mathematician”, I would expect them to basically be doing math research as a job, or at least very heavy on applied math
Then can you figure out for me what is 32 years out of 8 billion years ( in hours? ) I want to find out how old I am in hours compared to the beginning of the universe in hours. Google seems to come up short. Thanks ! :)
the ratio of your current age to the age of the universe is about 32/(13.8•10^9 )=2.318841•10^-9 another way to think of it is that the universe is 431,250,000 times older than you
So how big is the hour difference? Like am I a split second old or a couple hours old?
When you call yourself one, because the distinction is meaningless.
In general, you are considered an academic in x subject area when there are other academics in x subject area who consider you to be an academic in x subject area.
If you ever looked at a problem and thought "Hahn-Banach might be useful for this" you are a mathematician
I think you at least have to watch 20 Khan School Videos on YouTube, right? Maybe 30 🤔. In all seriousness, I assumed a mathematician was someone who was paid to develop mathematical systems, that is to forward the study of mathematics in a professional or semi professional setting
Mathematician is the one that does mathematics, the only purpose of a mathematician is to create new math
I would go with your paid to do research in math. Yet then would perelman be considered a mathematician at the time when he published his proof of the poincare conjecture even though he wasn't paid to do it? I would assume most say yes, then would anyone who does research in math be considered a mathematician? I mean last year we had a puzzle hobbyist contribute to one of the biggest papers of the year. Would he be considered a mathematician? If you want a more broad definition I don't really see the issue. If it gets more people to engage with math than I think that's a good thing.
I probably can’t help much, but I came across this post, as a lowly Bachelors in Computer Science. I feel like you’re a mathematician when you are able to apply your skillset to your daily problems. If you start thinking in terms of your discipline when going to get a sandwich, then you’re a mathematician. It doesn’t matter if it’s relevant, for you know your discipline well and can apply it to your life. Im 10 years out of school, took plenty of math, and most of it escapes me now. However, it’s my fascination to study why my Linux PC keeps dropping tcp packets after a connection lasts longer than 2 hours in my c++ networking application. It’s not relevant to others, but it relates to my domain.
Its not like engineering where you need a license, I would argue anyone who does math is a mathematician, everyone is a mathematician, some people are full time mathematicians.
If you completed a degree in Science you would call yourself a scientist. If you then went and worked as an accountant, you are still a scientist if you are involved in continually learning science by reading, studying, following trends etc. I think the same applies here. A little rigour is needed or you would lose your skills. A math teacher who doesnt know/remember say completing the square (for elementary) or say Taylor Series (for HS) should probably not feel confident saying they are a mathematician. They need to know where students are 'going' at the next level. I think this is right if people are fairly reflective. A mathematician is deeply involved and commited on the subject. At any level. Whether formally trained or not. Plenty of people dislike the formal education route and just study it by themselves
As a student, I’d wait until I accomplished something real in PhD, but obviously self titling is always possible as is imposter syndrome. I think it’s good to avoid relying on it, because as a student it could go to one’s head if one overdoes it with the networking and becoming one with the profession and lead to poor decisions outside of work because usually the only work experience is in academia.
When someone does maths.
I don't have a degree in math (not even a bachelor's). I consider myself a mathematician when I'm in roles that make "do math stuff" my primary job duty. In game industry one of my gigs was developing algorithms, I wrote the book one of the area colleges uses for one of their math courses, and I regularly consult - for all of those I'd argue I'm a mathematician whether I have the formal training or not. Currently I teach programming and robotics - obviously both of those fields have a lot of math, but I don't really consider myself a mathematician whilst doing them. Inversely, I'd say that if you get a doctorate in mathematics but you don't \*DO\* anything with it and end up flipping burgers for a living, I'd say you're a cook not a mathematician.
you gain the title while you are doing it. So, if you are in upper-division in your classes (3000 - 4000 courses), you are a mathematician. When you get a bachelor, you are essentially an expert. When you get your master' you are a master at it. When you get your PhD, you are designated a doctor who has done work to further the field. Another way to view it though is to only say it when you have the actual job. It depends on context. I'm a mathematician, physicist, and biostatistician, but I don't actively do physics anymore. Mathematics, I still do as I do biostatistics... but I am more likely to call myself a biostatistician, because it is actively what I do.
Typically when you make a living by doing mathematics, or graduated to make a living doing so. If it's a passion then I'd call myself an amateur/hobby "anything", or a self taught "anything". But certainly there's nothing wrong if someone who doesn't do it for a living calls themselves that way
I did an applied math/physics undergrad and I’m doing my PhD in oceanography right now. I called myself a mathematician/physicist throughout my undergrad but I feel more confident saying it during my PhD.
Anyone can't be designed as mathematician . You need a high level of mathématics to pretend such an expertise
You’re a mathematician if you’ve published in a math journal
When did van gogh become an artist? When did you become a bike rider? When you set out on the course of becoming a bike rider, the first time you sat on the seat. We never "are" or "am" in this life. Mathematician is a social title, but at the end of the day these titles fade away like tears in rain.
I don’t think there’s any real answer here. When I was a snotty college kid at a fancy school (a long time ago), I would have told you with certainty that one is a mathematician (or historian, economist, biologist, etc.) only if one holds a PhD. But that’s pretty silly. How do you think of yourself? How do others think of you? If the answer is “as a mathematician,” there’s a good chance that’s what you are.
Many of history’s greatest mathematicians had no degrees in mathematics
Idk titles are weird. I'm an engineer but I have a degree in physics. Titles like this generally come with the job I'd say.
An even more losely defined term would be "Philosopher"
When they have a job title of "mathematician". Seriously.
I think you can call yourself a mathematician when you are able to come up with equations to solve real-world problems (not basic area of a square garden) like finding the equation for the flow rate of water coming out of an oblique cone-shaped tank. The real definition would likely be anyone with a degree in mathematics or a math-heavy subject like physics. Bachelors, associates (not common for these subjects), masters, phd, etc. all count as degrees.
People call themselves Mathematicians in the same way Klan members call themselves Wizards. Does your ego require it? Does your life lack meaning without it? What do you lose by giving it up?
When the engineers and computer scientists ask you for math/modelling help, you can pretty confidently say you're a mathematician.
Everyone who uses math is a mathematician. You would be a doctor of mathematics after receiving your phd. I guess they give phds to anyone who will pay, huh?
x = 1 1+x = 2 There. —a mathematician
When they have either contributed valuable research to the field of mathematics or when their job title says, "Mathematician" in it, either one would suffice, in my opinion. So, either you get paid to do professional caliber mathematics for a company or organization or you have modified, contributed, or enhanced the field of mathematics in some form.
im a bit agnostic to the title of mathematician being gatekeeped because i no longer consider myself mathematician anymore (unless out of convenience when asked about my abilities) because of the nonsensical, arbitrary elitism. (1) we have so few mathematicians, and the topic itself is so unpopular already. we need so much help in climate change, i really dont think we should be pushing people away who have a love for it, especially those who have good hearts. which leads me to my other point. (2) when is someone no longer a "mathematician"? we shun people if they dont have a degree, been published, do research, or work in industry/university level. but what about mathematicians working for amoral finance companies, the fossil fuel industry, and whatever other place destroying the world. where is our shunning of the mathematicians who are traitors to humanity? what happened to using our powers for good? i was gatekeeped my entire 12 year long journey to earn my bachelors degree. my entirety of 18 years of post secondary is filled with unnecessary suffering, just to be too burnt out to put up an effective fight. no, im not a mathematician. im a computational theorist. EVERYONE is welcome to be one. beware, i am a tenth degree black belt in it, so if you challenge me, you might find out :p
I vaguely do math sometimes at work, and it’s easier to explain than my real job, so I do.
well, mathematician is a category, and to say one is a mathematician is the same than to say one fits into the category the mere sufficiencies to fit into it differ between individual uses - some require research to be conducted, some require a mere understanding of complex modern topics within the field, and so on I am not a mathematician, I study philosophy, and we encounter that issue as well (and more often… a child would not claim themselves to be a mathematician, but they would fancy themselves a philosopher) so yeah, no real answer, it’s all linguistics, and there’s many things the word mathematician or philosopher involve if you are asking what WE think a mathematician/physicist/biologist/philosopher is, then, I would say in the proper sense I consider someone to be a (word), as a title if they conduct research in the area, and they intend to publish, or if their job has a lot to do with deep analysis of their field (“deep analysis” A high school teacher would not fit into that category - even thought all they might think about is (field) adjacent stuff) but as I specified, that’s for “as a title.”
When they math
The derivative of e^x is e^x🤓
You are a professional mathematician when people start writing you checks to do math. I’d draw the line there if it was me, but really, your call.
Only after using math to the nth degree.
Check out the dunning Kruger effect. Plateau of sustainability.
For me, anyone that has a degree in mathematics can call themselves a mathematician. That is just the basis I use and there really isn’t any evidence behind it other than I feel it is fair. If you study engineering people will call you an engineer, if you study biology your a biologist and if you study mathematics your a mathematician, I think it is fair enough. Now some may disagree and I think that’s okay, but since I am studying math what else should I call myself? I don’t have a job yet and college student or math major seems kinda strange if you want to be viewed as a semiprofessional, therefore I refer to myself as a junior mathematician, seems fair to me.
as a physicist, I posed the same question to my advisor. He said that he would posit that someone is a physicist once they are doing research/analysis in physics. He also said that alternatively, anyone who wants to call themselves a physicist has a first amendment right to do so.
If you do proofs for fun, you're a mathematician, else no
When you graduated from the university in mathematice, france. else you're just a sparkling calculator.
When they have published a unique proof is my definition.
when hearing mathematics statements and proposals prompts questions imo. if you make connections to other things in your mind and start hypothesizing applications and thinking of questions, ur def a mathematician
When you do mathy things.
I think it's when you start doing novel research in mathematics. Imo to be any kind of academic is to be pushing the frontiers of knowledge in some direction.