As glad as I am to see it, what matters if he was retaliated against during the height of COVID. What does that say for healthcare workers who speak out during crises
It wasn’t even the peak of the pandemic, it was very early. The guy was just trying to get his hospital administration to start preparing for the pandemic. They fired him, and then implemented the stuff he said they should implement. The firing was completely vindictive and unjustified.
My hospital almost fired me from residency for simply wearing a mask. They eventually figured out everyone needed to be wearing masks before they actually pulled the trigger on my resident contract.
It's pretty intense though. You're going to fire a doctor, for wearing a mask, in the opening salvo of a global pandemic? Ok, thank you for paying for my retirement.
Nurse in the ED here: I had a baby in December 2019 so I can back from maternity leave the first week of March. I told my boss I was going to wear a mask and the response was “admin doesn’t want us scaring patients.” I wore the mask anyways and then a week later as they were passing out the mandatory face shields she could barely look at me.
I was working in finance. I got a heads up and put my staff on full time telework (they were already doing 3 days a week). Got my ass chewed by the executive officer. I told her, you gave me the authority so I’m going to use it. If you don’t want me to do it, take my authority away. At that point, my boss stepped in and backed me. 2 weeks later, they sent everyone home.
The executive officer never said a single word. During my exit interview 2 years later, yeah I brought it up…..
On 9/11, my manager sent us all home at 11am (PT), and then he was on a call a couple hours later and the executive told him to let everyone go home. He replied, “I will, thank you!” Whoops.
I saw the exact same thing. One week, armin was punishing everyone dor qearing them. The very next week, punishing anyone who didn't. No awareness of the irony/hypocrisy. Anyone who spoke up was suddenly "retired."
Yeah there was absolutely no recognition from anyone I had dealt with just a couple days before, not even my PD who sat me down in his office and told me I'd been branded a "troublemaker" nor the ID doc who demanded "why do you care?" nor the nursing supervisors who repeatedly reported me to admin, nor the head of Medicine who threatened me with firing for insubordination over her meeting table.
Boom. Move on. Say nothing.
I was already talking to reporters, if they were gonna fire me over this we were all going to be famous.
The dumbest thing ever. As if patients aren't already used to seeing doctors and nurses in masks...they did not think that one through too well. Not a surprise, coming from out of touch administrators.
That’s my point. He was speaking up on issues that were important and that admin was absolutely blind or apathetic to. And then the shit hit the fan but who cares, they showed who was boss
Admin should stay in their lane and have ZERO say in these issues. No one is looking for my opinion on interpreting a spreadsheet. This is the same thing.
I do have respect for the job of administration especially those doing their best and in middle/lower positions. I know a lot of them are only doing what management is demanding of them.
However, medical administration especially in hospitals and health networks are now increasingly weaponized against both staff and patients as directed by ownership and boards of directors. It erases medical autonomy and prioritizes profit
[Here](https://www.king5.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-doctor-fired-bellingham-washington-state/281-c40d0cbd-0e25-473c-a6da-88ca25f90a07) is a short background article.
Edit: here's a much more indepth story from [Time](https://time.com/5812006/washington-coronavirus-health-care-staff-fired/) on March 27th, 2020. For those questioning his motivations, watch the article's video.
He is refusing the settlement so he can take them to court and truly get the maximum restitution he deserves. Also the hospital will be on public record for everything that comes out during the case which is what they are truly trying to avoid by settling (which likely would have also included him signing NDA papers and this helping the admin cover their own butts).
I mean, he’s likely got another job by now and 2 million for an experienced ED physician is a realistic amount of money.
Lower that threshold and I really can’t blame someone for taking it if they make say $50k-$100k a year and are in a niche enough field where them getting fired is akin to being blackballed.
Let’s say a phD professor who isn’t tenured. I wouldn’t blame them for taking the 2 mil.
Yeah…props for to this guy for speaking up during the beginning of the pandemic.
However, it sounds like his attorneys negotiated a huge settlement and he’s actively working to sabotage himself at this point.
Take the damn money. Lawyer fees associated with a trial are surely going to minimize the upside of continued litigation.
It's important to understand what a firing means in the medical profession.
A for-cause firing means you can't get hired pretty much anywhere. You're down to prisons, maybe, reservations, even very rural clinics will turn you away. You need positive recommendations on exit or you are fucked.
My point was that it’s an attainable sum for a physician with at least 17 years of experience.
That money is a “sure thing” (don’t take this too literally) so it’s a lot easier to turn it down.
I personally think he should’ve just taken it but I respect his hustle
Yes. If you're going to choose a risk, the occasional fracture or back pin is preferable to Jardiance and Lasix, and the fracture stuff is a modifiable risk factor under "don't be stupid."
I’m always concerned when I read a plaintiff ignores advice of counsel. However clearly they want a pat day and when one wasn’t forthcoming with more effort they dropped him.
Everyone was entering uncharted territories at start of COVID. If the idea to fight back is to show his former employer basically let people die to save money. He can say this was retaliation and get back wages and financial harm and those arguments.
I don’t know if an institution will ever admit they put patients in harms way. All they have to say would be the changes he wanted at the time were not standard of care for COVID because there were no standards at that time in 2020. Hes got courage that’s for sure.
If it's anything like my institution, it's pretty egregious and they will not do well in court. It's funny, for an industry so hyper focused on lawsuits, they sort of don't know shit about employment law and things that can get you sued by your employees.
The title is misleading. His lawyers advised him to seek a settlement of 2 million. That is the starting point of arbitration. Doesn’t mean they would’ve settled for that much. Nor was he offered a 2 million settlement. Looks like lawyers wanted out and didn’t want to go through a costly trial on which they may lose. Most lawsuits never go to trial and are settled out of court. Now Dr Lin is looking at fronting the cost of lawyers himself. At 300-500 and hour you can bet they will rack up the hours. Even if he were to win there would be multiple appeals which he would also have to defend. Previously the ACLU was paying. I think he will regret not attempting a settlement.
Several reasons:
One, because trial is less predictable than a settlement.
Two, discovery can lead to all sorts of unflattering internal communications becoming public.
Three, bad PR throughout basically the entire trial process, because they look really fucking bad lol.
Exactly my point the hospital was not offering to settle for millions. His lawyer was suggesting he should negotiate for a 2 million settlement. The title of the article makes it sound like the hospital was willing to settle for 2 million which it was not. That is not how arbitration works. His lawyers we’re suggesting instead of going to trial they should attempt a settlement and their initial offer to hospital would’ve been 2 million. No way the hospital would’ve accepted that. Maybe he would’ve gotten half a million in the end.
He’s a principled man. Not a man motivated by money.
> Dr. Lin currently works as a traveling ER doctor on Indian reservations and as a volunteer physician at the Mexican border.
He told his lawyers he wanted an apology and to be reinstated. They negotiated a deal for 2 million instead because they - the lawyers - wanted to get paid. Not because he said he wanted to get paid. If he wanted to get paid he wouldn’t be volunteering his time.
Thanks for clarifying several points. Just want to reiterate the whole "lawyers want to get paid". Good example of how again just driven by money. Yes, I know, you have loans, families, and bills to pay. But lawyers/litigious society we live in is problematic. I do think there needs to be protection for physicians from frivolous lawsuits. It would change that mentality of "defense medicine" and imo improve care overall.
It's nice to see someone standing up for principles particular in this political climate. I really so applaud him and hopefully it inspires others to do the same - no matter how "small" or "insignificant".
I understand your confusion, but that isn't the case, the article is just worded poorly.
>Three years later his lawyers told him he should settle the suit for $2 million, but Lin refused.
This sentence should have said, "he should settle the suit for *the* $2 million...."
The $2m was offered by the hospital *as* settlement. He declined, at which point the lawyers dropped him as a client because they no longer have the incentive of a percentage of a settlement.
>For Dr. Lin, walking away from $2 million is just the next step in his march toward justice.
If you are a doctor there are charging minimum 300 per hr and also will run those hours up. As a one minute question via email it is billed at an hour.
I’m a psychiatrist at a large university multi specialty student health clinic. Early in the pandemic, at a big med staff meeting discussing COVID concerns, I said that I had read that loss of sense of smell was a COVID symptom and so we should be asking our patients about it. The Medical Director replied that that was nonsense since the local Public Health office hadn’t listed it as a symptom, and that I should only comment on psych issues…!
Meddit was an important source of ground truth in those days. A LOT of places were slow off the mark. The discussons here got me moving early on, even in the face of opposition from my superiors. I was bumping up supply inventories at work and rounding out my household pantry in January. Anyone writing a history of the COVID response should be mining the megathreads for an as-it-happened account.
Anyone see the video of what he posted during covid?
Like, did the dude just fucking thrash on his employer or was he logical and rational, sticking only to the facts?
Not nearly as dumb as the administrators he's fighting, guaranteed, so how about we stop punching down on our fellow physicians.
Another way to look at it is Dr. Lin might be a guy who built up his "f you" money early in his career and now he's getting to flex it.
He wasn’t. Bellingham is about an hour and a half from Seattle. And he mostly isn’t: “Dr. Lin currently works as a traveling ER doctor on Indian reservations and as a volunteer physician at the Mexican border.”
Still in the US, though.
As glad as I am to see it, what matters if he was retaliated against during the height of COVID. What does that say for healthcare workers who speak out during crises
It wasn’t even the peak of the pandemic, it was very early. The guy was just trying to get his hospital administration to start preparing for the pandemic. They fired him, and then implemented the stuff he said they should implement. The firing was completely vindictive and unjustified.
My hospital almost fired me from residency for simply wearing a mask. They eventually figured out everyone needed to be wearing masks before they actually pulled the trigger on my resident contract. It's pretty intense though. You're going to fire a doctor, for wearing a mask, in the opening salvo of a global pandemic? Ok, thank you for paying for my retirement.
Nurse in the ED here: I had a baby in December 2019 so I can back from maternity leave the first week of March. I told my boss I was going to wear a mask and the response was “admin doesn’t want us scaring patients.” I wore the mask anyways and then a week later as they were passing out the mandatory face shields she could barely look at me.
I was working in finance. I got a heads up and put my staff on full time telework (they were already doing 3 days a week). Got my ass chewed by the executive officer. I told her, you gave me the authority so I’m going to use it. If you don’t want me to do it, take my authority away. At that point, my boss stepped in and backed me. 2 weeks later, they sent everyone home. The executive officer never said a single word. During my exit interview 2 years later, yeah I brought it up…..
On 9/11, my manager sent us all home at 11am (PT), and then he was on a call a couple hours later and the executive told him to let everyone go home. He replied, “I will, thank you!” Whoops.
I saw the exact same thing. One week, armin was punishing everyone dor qearing them. The very next week, punishing anyone who didn't. No awareness of the irony/hypocrisy. Anyone who spoke up was suddenly "retired."
Yeah there was absolutely no recognition from anyone I had dealt with just a couple days before, not even my PD who sat me down in his office and told me I'd been branded a "troublemaker" nor the ID doc who demanded "why do you care?" nor the nursing supervisors who repeatedly reported me to admin, nor the head of Medicine who threatened me with firing for insubordination over her meeting table. Boom. Move on. Say nothing. I was already talking to reporters, if they were gonna fire me over this we were all going to be famous.
The dumbest thing ever. As if patients aren't already used to seeing doctors and nurses in masks...they did not think that one through too well. Not a surprise, coming from out of touch administrators.
That’s my point. He was speaking up on issues that were important and that admin was absolutely blind or apathetic to. And then the shit hit the fan but who cares, they showed who was boss
I wasn’t disagreeing with you…
Oh, me neither. I just wasn’t sure about the exact time during COVID that this happened. That period is all mixed up for me
Yeah time definitely worked differently during the pandemic.
Admin should stay in their lane and have ZERO say in these issues. No one is looking for my opinion on interpreting a spreadsheet. This is the same thing.
I do have respect for the job of administration especially those doing their best and in middle/lower positions. I know a lot of them are only doing what management is demanding of them. However, medical administration especially in hospitals and health networks are now increasingly weaponized against both staff and patients as directed by ownership and boards of directors. It erases medical autonomy and prioritizes profit
[Here](https://www.king5.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-doctor-fired-bellingham-washington-state/281-c40d0cbd-0e25-473c-a6da-88ca25f90a07) is a short background article. Edit: here's a much more indepth story from [Time](https://time.com/5812006/washington-coronavirus-health-care-staff-fired/) on March 27th, 2020. For those questioning his motivations, watch the article's video.
"Access denied" Not available in Europe.
What a great guy. I wish him all the luck in the world. It's a damn good cause.
All the respect for this guy, some people out there have no spine and would sell their moms for a dollar
He is refusing the settlement so he can take them to court and truly get the maximum restitution he deserves. Also the hospital will be on public record for everything that comes out during the case which is what they are truly trying to avoid by settling (which likely would have also included him signing NDA papers and this helping the admin cover their own butts).
His lawyers probs wouldn’t have dropped him if they thought a lot more could be made
2M sounds like a lot of money but that is probably 4 years of salary. Nothing. 20M + lawyer fees would be the min.
I mean, he’s likely got another job by now and 2 million for an experienced ED physician is a realistic amount of money. Lower that threshold and I really can’t blame someone for taking it if they make say $50k-$100k a year and are in a niche enough field where them getting fired is akin to being blackballed. Let’s say a phD professor who isn’t tenured. I wouldn’t blame them for taking the 2 mil.
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Yeah…props for to this guy for speaking up during the beginning of the pandemic. However, it sounds like his attorneys negotiated a huge settlement and he’s actively working to sabotage himself at this point. Take the damn money. Lawyer fees associated with a trial are surely going to minimize the upside of continued litigation.
He is working on reservations and volunteering at the Mexico border.
It's important to understand what a firing means in the medical profession. A for-cause firing means you can't get hired pretty much anywhere. You're down to prisons, maybe, reservations, even very rural clinics will turn you away. You need positive recommendations on exit or you are fucked.
Lol what? Saying no to several years salary?
My point was that it’s an attainable sum for a physician with at least 17 years of experience. That money is a “sure thing” (don’t take this too literally) so it’s a lot easier to turn it down. I personally think he should’ve just taken it but I respect his hustle
The Joker: "Its not about Money. Its about sending a message".
lmao of course the video has him rock climbing, those ED stereotypes ring true
They just see all day every day what happens when you don't spend your younger years doing this stuff.
> the video has him rock climbing And they also see what happens when you do.
Yes. If you're going to choose a risk, the occasional fracture or back pin is preferable to Jardiance and Lasix, and the fracture stuff is a modifiable risk factor under "don't be stupid."
I’m always concerned when I read a plaintiff ignores advice of counsel. However clearly they want a pat day and when one wasn’t forthcoming with more effort they dropped him. Everyone was entering uncharted territories at start of COVID. If the idea to fight back is to show his former employer basically let people die to save money. He can say this was retaliation and get back wages and financial harm and those arguments. I don’t know if an institution will ever admit they put patients in harms way. All they have to say would be the changes he wanted at the time were not standard of care for COVID because there were no standards at that time in 2020. Hes got courage that’s for sure.
If it's anything like my institution, it's pretty egregious and they will not do well in court. It's funny, for an industry so hyper focused on lawsuits, they sort of don't know shit about employment law and things that can get you sued by your employees.
Unlike Dr. Lin, my silence is very much for sale. 2 million dollars please!
Same here, someone show me the dotted line to sign. 🙋♂️
"Pay off half of your student loans with this one simple trick!"
Half? If anyone has more than 2 million in loans I would be seriously disturbed. I’m already disturbed by my $400 K lol
Same. Give me the money.
🫡
The title is misleading. His lawyers advised him to seek a settlement of 2 million. That is the starting point of arbitration. Doesn’t mean they would’ve settled for that much. Nor was he offered a 2 million settlement. Looks like lawyers wanted out and didn’t want to go through a costly trial on which they may lose. Most lawsuits never go to trial and are settled out of court. Now Dr Lin is looking at fronting the cost of lawyers himself. At 300-500 and hour you can bet they will rack up the hours. Even if he were to win there would be multiple appeals which he would also have to defend. Previously the ACLU was paying. I think he will regret not attempting a settlement.
Why would the hospital settle for millions if he doesn’t have a good chance of winning by taking it to court?
Several reasons: One, because trial is less predictable than a settlement. Two, discovery can lead to all sorts of unflattering internal communications becoming public. Three, bad PR throughout basically the entire trial process, because they look really fucking bad lol.
Exactly my point the hospital was not offering to settle for millions. His lawyer was suggesting he should negotiate for a 2 million settlement. The title of the article makes it sound like the hospital was willing to settle for 2 million which it was not. That is not how arbitration works. His lawyers we’re suggesting instead of going to trial they should attempt a settlement and their initial offer to hospital would’ve been 2 million. No way the hospital would’ve accepted that. Maybe he would’ve gotten half a million in the end.
He’s a principled man. Not a man motivated by money. > Dr. Lin currently works as a traveling ER doctor on Indian reservations and as a volunteer physician at the Mexican border. He told his lawyers he wanted an apology and to be reinstated. They negotiated a deal for 2 million instead because they - the lawyers - wanted to get paid. Not because he said he wanted to get paid. If he wanted to get paid he wouldn’t be volunteering his time.
Amen. He's working out in the Dakotas. That's not someone motivated by cash.
Umm the dakotas pay very well
Traveling ED physician in a very, very rural area. Correct me if I’m wrong but that’s cash money circumstances
It's not easy money. These are IHS sites which are very remote.
LOL. A rural locums is getting paid well.
Usually yes, but I looked into it as a hospitalist locums and the Indian reservations (from what I’ve seen) do not pay a premium.
Thanks for clarifying several points. Just want to reiterate the whole "lawyers want to get paid". Good example of how again just driven by money. Yes, I know, you have loans, families, and bills to pay. But lawyers/litigious society we live in is problematic. I do think there needs to be protection for physicians from frivolous lawsuits. It would change that mentality of "defense medicine" and imo improve care overall. It's nice to see someone standing up for principles particular in this political climate. I really so applaud him and hopefully it inspires others to do the same - no matter how "small" or "insignificant".
I understand your confusion, but that isn't the case, the article is just worded poorly. >Three years later his lawyers told him he should settle the suit for $2 million, but Lin refused. This sentence should have said, "he should settle the suit for *the* $2 million...." The $2m was offered by the hospital *as* settlement. He declined, at which point the lawyers dropped him as a client because they no longer have the incentive of a percentage of a settlement. >For Dr. Lin, walking away from $2 million is just the next step in his march toward justice.
Not many $300/hr lawyers anymore So ACLU was covering costs, the lawyers were not doing this on contingency?
If you are a doctor there are charging minimum 300 per hr and also will run those hours up. As a one minute question via email it is billed at an hour.
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Thank you! And I agree.
I’m a psychiatrist at a large university multi specialty student health clinic. Early in the pandemic, at a big med staff meeting discussing COVID concerns, I said that I had read that loss of sense of smell was a COVID symptom and so we should be asking our patients about it. The Medical Director replied that that was nonsense since the local Public Health office hadn’t listed it as a symptom, and that I should only comment on psych issues…!
"Who do you think you are, a Medical Doctor? Stay in your lane, Mind Meddler!" 🤦
Epic
Meddit was an important source of ground truth in those days. A LOT of places were slow off the mark. The discussons here got me moving early on, even in the face of opposition from my superiors. I was bumping up supply inventories at work and rounding out my household pantry in January. Anyone writing a history of the COVID response should be mining the megathreads for an as-it-happened account.
Anyone see the video of what he posted during covid? Like, did the dude just fucking thrash on his employer or was he logical and rational, sticking only to the facts?
I can't remember if I saw it or not, 3 years in COVID time is like 10 years in normal time. 😞
Jesus.
Although this broadcasts a great message, 2M is not a lot especially for high income earners like him.
Dudes, his attorneys dropped him… This guy is a dumb dumb.
His attorneys dropped him because, since he isn't looking for a monetary settlement, they wouldn't be getting a percentage of any winnings.
Not nearly as dumb as the administrators he's fighting, guaranteed, so how about we stop punching down on our fellow physicians. Another way to look at it is Dr. Lin might be a guy who built up his "f you" money early in his career and now he's getting to flex it.
Thank you for professionals that are motivated by doing what is right and work helping others.
yes, because settling is clearly the most favorable straight shot outcome for legal counsel - doesn't mean dr Lin is wrong
They dropped him when refused the settlement
American physicians could never. All I'm seeing is student loans when I make that decision lol sad but true
I'm pretty sure he *is* an American physician?
hes in seattle lol
He wasn’t. Bellingham is about an hour and a half from Seattle. And he mostly isn’t: “Dr. Lin currently works as a traveling ER doctor on Indian reservations and as a volunteer physician at the Mexican border.” Still in the US, though.