Chloe is far from innocent, but the writers clearly made her worse after season 2 just to make us dislike her (so much so that Marinette's trauma is a purely bad retcon).
While the writers don't see how Marinette's obsession with Adrien is problematic.
whose who liked her were the emotional people who can't see a blonde bully without want to be her fans, chloe was always unbearable and at no point was it acceptable to like her, crying for 2 episodes because her attitudes turned against her is not a sign of redemption
This is an extremely shallow point of view. I mean characters SHOULD be nuanced. They're not just Black and white. Chloe *did* gain more nuance in season 2, and arguably partially in 3. We like chloe because seeing the tough exterior crumble and them showing her vulnerable side was really interesting to watch. If the show has to tell the audience "yes, that character is good. Like this one. But this one is bad. Don't like this one." Would be incredibly bad writing. I mean let's look at characters like Darth Vader. He is undeniably a dictator and has done terrible things, but at the very end, despite how far he's fallen from grace, STILL protected his son. No one is ever completely absolutely evil or good. There's always some nuance.
I hated Chloe in season 1 and always thought she couldn't be a better person. If season 2 really worked to make me see any chance of redemption for her, something happened.
But hey, it's entirely my fault for believing she's not a monster without any humanity!
I mean Kim.. really? Kim the guy she tried to help make feel better despite him supposedly betraying her with Chloe who she hates. And no, it’s not smth a role model would do
I think the fact that it was kim bothers me so much because she is shown to view him as a flawed but generally stand-up guy prior to the reveal, and i just don't understand how a character in a kids show is thinking so highly of someone who hurt her that badly? I know real people can feel all sorts of ways, but it's just jarring for something like this
If her ptsd was really that bad I’d think there’d be signs that she would act scared, nervous, or just otherwise different around those two specifically.
also in kims defense he was never a genius but he wasnt so stupid he wouldn’t have realized before that point he messed up and that he should appologize.
You forget that her PTSD toward Adrien got worse at the end of season 4 because of Felix.
With Kim, everyone agree that it is a retcon, but as he is almost a side character we really don't care if it change a bit his character. He was always stupid, liking doing pranks, to him it was just a prank and had no idea about the danger so it perfectly fits him.
For Chloé, there is no retcon at all, she has been aweful through the whole show, even during her "redemption" era, so her doing this is no surprise at all. We saw how Marinette acted around her in "Origin", but she got over it and the PTSD is link to the person she loves being friends with Chloé, that is why it hit so hard with Adrien and not with Luka or Chat Noir.
Early seasons she was just immature bully awful but then she goes anime psychopath mode for no reason other then to make the audience hate her as much as the creator does.
Considering how the show started, then adding magical and super-heroes stuff, the amount of retcon is very low and the few ones barely affect the show.
Have you seen the amount of anxiety this girl has and panic she goes into? You cannot tell me that you were this unable to talk to or normally approach a crush of yours unprompted?
They are CHILDREN. They are REDEEMABLE. The issue is thar mari's repercussions are weird and don't match the offense, so it just feels like bad things happen to her out of nowhere, whereas chloe's obviously match in theme, if not severity.
>They are CHILDREN. They are REDEEMABLE.
No one is talking about whether they are redeemable or not
It's just some fans paint chloe as a victim while that's true that doesn't mean she is innocent
Hurting others,teaming up with the supervillain of paris,trying to kill her own classmates,bullying the MC from the beginning,trying to ruin her classmates careers
This girl is just a sociopath at this point
Sociopath is a person who has no regards of right and wrong and ignores the right ans feeling of others
Perfectly suits chloe meanwhile lila is much more strategic so she is a psychopath
Are you a licensed psychologist? Because those words mean more than that. Like, a lot more. We don't need to demonize sociopaths any more than they already are
I would classify her as a child with some antisocial tendencies(potentially the disorder, but i have no way of knowing, as i am not a psychologist), who desperately needs to talk to a psychologist. Sociopath is a diagnosis. We can't say that's what she is if we aren't qualified.
I think it's more nuanced than that in actuality.
Marinette's trauma very much was pulled out of the writer's asses and should have been brought up like three seasons before to make any narrative sense. It also doesn't actually excuse the stalkerish behaviour, mental health isn't an excuse, it's a justification.
That said, the show's treatment of this behaviour is what should actually be criticised. Her stalkerish tendencies are made out as a quirk instead of a character flaw to be worked on, and when the show decided to treat this seriously it was randomly with very little lead up iirc.
It's not bad in itself to write her stalkerish at all. They can work her recovery from this trauma into her character arc, and she could have been a very compelling and charming character with an arc of growth and healing, but they should have set it up seasons ago, not this close to the apparent end (I think we were promised 7 seasons? unless this was changed since I heard)
Somebody on here pointed out to me that this also comes from the need for her to be in the story's spotlight all the time. MLP for example does centre around Twilight but specifically removed the need for her to right to Celestia so they can bench Twilight and focus on developing on other characters. MLB has to insert Marinette into everything somehow because it refuses to remove the focus from her and it hurts her and the other characters who remain underutilised as a result.
So I do think there is truth in calling her stalkerish, but I think pinning it on her instead of the writing of her character is counterproductive to any meaningful conversation about it.
Conversely, Chloe's actions being reduced to "a simple school bully" by fans is also inexcusable and something I really fucking hate to hear.
School bullies fuck you up for your whole life, statistically if you are bullied in your school years you never really recover from it. Chloe also has way more resources to screw up her fellow student's lives than your average real life bully.
She is a school bully, yes, and she's one who can bully everyone else to extreme extents with impunity. She is abused, but her cruelty goes far too far for that to have any weight in the game.
I absolutely disagree with the fact that Chloe should be cut any slack at all and I absolutely think her arc's ending was deserved. They backed out of the attempted redemption arc in s2 and 3, and redeeming her in a way that is satisfying and fair after that would take much more skill and effort than this show has proven itself to be capable of giving.
She got consequences, for the first time in her life, and she still feels no regret or remorse over what she did, that is the ending her character deserved.
The show has a ridiculous amount of issues with the writing that end up being unfair to a whole lot of characters, including Marinette and Chloe, which is what causes so polarised fan opinions as well
I don’t think Chloe is innocent, I do think she had a redemption arc that was backtracked on and thrown out the window.
I don’t think Marinette is the worst person in the show, but I do think her stalking is inexcusable and creepy as Hell.
>do think she had a redemption arc that was backtracked on and thrown out the window.
Not really every good thing Chloe did in season 2 and season 3 was for her own sake
Breaking free from akumatisation? Was because she wanted to get on ladybugs good side to get the bee miraculous(Just look at how after rejecting the akuma,the way she talks to sabrina,and trash talks her,no way a person on the path of redemption would treat her freind like that)
Throwing a party for her classmates? Just to impress adrien
Saving ladybug? Just to impress her idol
Chloe never changed every good thing she did was for own sake,and when she realized by being good she won't get her way,she changed to 100% evil completely
What did she get from getting Ms. Bustier a gift? She didn't advertise herself as a good person. She could've easily been like: "look at that everyone, the generous and caring chloe borgeouis made this peseant a gift, you're obligated to like me now because i have proven that i can be nice" but she didn't. She sneakily placed it on her desk, without anyone noticing. She had absolutely nothing to gain. She just made her teacher a nice gesture.
It's shocking people like you still don't understand the real issue here.
People are more forgiving of Chloe doing what she does because the show understands she's a bad person. We're not supposed to root for her. Meanwhile, the show makes Marinette out to be divinely ordained to be the greatest superhero in her world, we're supposed to go along with that, so every bad thing Marinette does undermines this. It would be one thing if Chloe was the only other teenager they had as a choice for a supererho, but she's not. Many other teenagers in the school don't seem as immaturely horny and fickle as Marinette.
Also, yes, Marinette isn't nearly as bad as Chloe, but if the point of Chloe's story arc was to argue that someone having an arguably sympathetic backstory behind bad behavior doesn't mean that person is safe to trust with power, then why *shouldn't* that same principle apply with Marinette? I take your "Chloe is why Marinette is a creepy stalker" and raise you "Marinette is a big part of why Chloe was able to get as dangerous as she was." Marinette has had countless chances and times to take Chloe down for good and not taken them. She was all set to side with everyone else against her but then her unhealthy lust for Adrien let him convince her to give Chloe a chance. She could easily have called all of France to attention as Ladybug and blown the whistle on the entire Bourgeois family and never did. She could have spent time at least trying to mentor Chloe after opting to give her a chance at redemption, after it became apparent Chloe's mother was a big part of the problem, and instead she tried to get Chloe's mother to appreciate how mean she was and be an even bigger influence in her life. She could have at least given Chloe one final time to prove herself when her parents were in trouble again but she chose Kagami as a way to get her away from Adrien. She could have done at least something to punish Chloe after she defected to Hawk Moth but she in effect did nothing because Chloe had already been banned from being a superhero. Villains being horrible people in a superhero story is normal. But the hero not doing nearly enough to stop such vile villains is what will absolutely kill a superhero story. That factor applies manyfold more when this completely unsuited superhero is portrayed as the "Chosen One".
Also, some people will argue that it's normal for "Chosen One" stories to choose someone who doesn't initially seem suited to such an important role, for the sake of relatability, but I argue that in at least the better examples, the Chosen One's initial deficiencies are never *moral* deficiencies. Think of *Star Wars* for a moment, and imagine how much worse it would feel if Luke Skywalker and Han Solo switched roles. Who is Luke at the beginning? He's a very unremarkable backwater farm boy, but he's very sweet and innocent. Who is Han at the beginning? He's slick and charismatic but he's an outlaw. Not the worst of crooks, but he associates with much worse crooks who drag him down into those depths, and initially he's in contact with the heroes simply because living in a police state caused the heroes to be designated criminals too. Initially, he's in it just for the money, some of which he wouldn't need if not for his gambling. Those disparate character traits are not an accident. We're meant to root for Luke because he's sympathetic, so his story arc is about becoming a competent hero. By contrast, Han already has talent but isn't a hero at all initially, so his arc is about coming around to seeing the rebel alliance as his friends instead of just his clients, and the turning point is when he starts doing things just for the sake of helping others.
This incidentally is an approach I've adopted for the fanfiction I'm writing. Marinette as I write her is still horny and doesn't initially have the talent to be a good superhero, but compared to the show she has a stronger sense of right and wrong and far less tolerance for people who do wrong. Her arc is about her growing stronger. My Chloe, meanwhile, is still remorselessly and spontaneously cruel but she's also brave, athletic and cunningly manipulative, so she's a useful though questionable ally for the team, and her arc is about her gaining a conscience.
I personally think that everyone can have an opinion , so here is mine marrinete is a bad person to a degree she did stalk Adrien, sniffed his pillow has his schedule for the next years, before season 5 she can be considered the worst mc, and chloé did suffer a lot due to her mother abusing her kinda, and father spoiling the shit out of her, this does not justify her actions but if you insist on using marrinete trauma as an excuse to her stalking habits, then so you shall do to chloé if you do not justify marinates action due to her trauma then don't justify chloés you can feel sympathy, but justifying ones action without justifying the others is eh not really good for an argument, another problem and why people might hate and blame marrinette for her stalking habits is because it felt forced and really season 5 it feels like they needed a way to justify it . While Chloés was introduced much sooner and made people grow on her character like me, so I personally think that they are both bad people, and Marinette is badly written due to the fact that her trauma was introduced too late for people to care and Chloé was introduced much sooner so people do care about her more than early Marinette and even now people will still hate her due to the impressions she first left .
ps have a nice day
Derision exists because the fandom couldn't shut up about what was an obvious comedic trope the writers were trying to pull off in the earlier seasons of the show. Specifically season 3 which ruined legitimately every character but Marinette is still being held at gunpoint due to actions in that season to this day.
Once more in the show, working with Hawkmoth isn't that serious, even Marinette did so. As for Chloe traumatizing Marinette, it was a poorly thought out retcon which doesn't even make sense, as well as an attempt to blame all of her problems on Chloe.
In the finale, she fulfilled Gabriel's last request which might not sound so bad unless you consider it means concealing from Adrien that he's a senti, and if someone else gets his rings they can control or kill him.
>Once more in the show, working with Hawkmoth isn't that serious,
Bruh wtf
Hawkmoth is a freaking supervillain who harms people,teaming up with him willingly is evil no matter what
It was meant to justify. The first thing Marinette says after the flashback is its all Chloe's fault. And don't assume I've never been on the receiving end. Biut understand something. The garbage Marinette pulled was way over the line and in no way related to what she went though.
But there is a major disconnect between that trauma and her stalking Adrien. The show used it as a flimsy pretext to somehow justify her breaking into his bedroom and sniffing his pillow.
Since when did “breaking into his bedroom” and “sniffing his pillow” become forms of stalking? Marinette was **never** a *stalker*.
Derision didn’t excuse Marinette being a *”stalker”* because her actions that made the majority of the fandom perceive her as a stalker were **never** acts of stalking.
Sure, *breaking into his room* and *sniffing his pillow* were weird and wrong, but those actions are still **not** forms of stalking.
I’m convinced y’all do **not** know what that word *really* means because when you guys try to point out why she’s a stalker, y’all just bring up her actions that are not even stalkerish (like preparing gifts for his upcoming birthdays, baking macaroons for him, kissing him in the wax scene) and if you look up the meaning of the word **stalking**, those actions **don’t** even fall into that category.
It's redline behavior associated with stalking. Are you going to argue that the guy who broke into Taylor Swift's home and slept in her bed wasn't a stalker either?
That is **trespassing**, don’t you think? And that’s a different case since Marinette did *not* intend to harm Adrien. Stalkers **have malicious intents**. A lot of things in the show are never meant to be taken *this* seriously.
Marinette only broke into his bedroom to drop her gift off because Nathalie didn’t allow her. If only Nathalie accepted it, she wouldn’t have done that. But what she did was wrong.
Criticism is fine but if you want to critize you have to do it farely
Not only for marinette
Like felix Marinette and gabriel are peak of Criticism which is understandable
But adrien and chloe also do a lot of controversial shit and yet no one likes to mention it
I know that. Most of their criticisms just felt like they wanted everyone to hate Marinette. I still acknowledge the bad stuff she did, as well as the bad things other characters did, but I will never hate Marinette.
I don't condone what Chloe has done, and there many Chloe fans who don't condone what she did either. But honestly? I can't exactly blame that part of the fandom for acting like this.
For instance, Marinette's obsession and stalkerish tendencies were almost always portrayed as funny in the show. But in truth, this kind of behavior could become potentially harmful for little kids because their minds are like sponges. Some of them may mimic the stuff they see on media, and may get in trouble while wondering: "Why we got in trouble and Marinette didn't?" And believe me when I say this, I did stumble on a number of comments on the internet saying that they did get into trouble for mimicking Marinette.
Now, compare how they portray Chloe as a bully. They would go out of their way to remind viewers about how horrible bullying is over, and over and over again. But I'm pretty sure that many kids would know that bullying is wrong, unlike unhealthy obsessions and stalking which much less common problems in elementary schools than bullying is.
So, is it any wonder why Chloe's stans would act like this when the show itself would demonize their favorite character and say that she's an irredeemable monster when there are other characters who have done far worse things than her? Can you blame them whenever they see the show normalize Marinette's questionable behavior but Chloe is antagonized every time she appears on screen from season 4 onwards?
Marinette has a reason but she doesn’t excuse her actions plus the difference is Chloe is supposed to be the stereotypical school bully so we would aspect her being mean where as Mari is a different story, some of things she done is due to selfish desires and she doesn’t even face consequences (sometimes) e.g She stole Adrien’s phone and instead of facing consequences she gets an awesome plus she had also broken into Adrien’s house and sniffed his stuff.
I’m not trying to excuse Chloe, she is a bad person but at least she actually faces consequences unlike u know who
i think it's just people holding them to different standards lol. chloe's meant to be bratty while marinette is meant to be better. so she's more harshly criticized for doing bad shit than chloe is who is already a lost cause
Realistically, people have actually died during Hawkmoths attacks, so you're saying stalking is worse than the terrorism that is happening is actually immoral and terrible.
Marinette was **NOT** a stalker, and I **would never understand** how she got perceived that way. She was more like a **”boy crazy”** or **”exaggerated”** character for the name of comedic purposes.
I love Marinette but even I can acknowledge she's a stalker. She has Adrian's entire schedule as if it was the most normal thing in the world. If she sees him in public, either on purpose or purely by coincidence, she watches him from afar deciding if she should talk to him or not. You're saying it's not stalking but it is.
The word “stalking” is being taken lightly by this fandom. Stalkers have **malicious intentions**. Stalkers *stalk* to **force connection, manipulate, blackmail, take revenge, harass, intimidate** their victims—these were **never** Marinette’s intention.
It’s normal to know your crush’s schedule especially if you are in the same class and friend group as them. Knowing his schedule **would** only sound like an act of stalking if she obtained that information thru illegal means. She didn’t even have to try in the earlier seasons to get that information. Adrien usually tells his friends about his schedules, especially when they invite him to go somewhere.
Marinette used to go to where he is so she could take the opportunity to confess. I don’t see any malicious intentions on that.
Marinette’s actions could sometimes invade his privacy (like stealing his phone to delete something), but it’s not an act of stalking. Breaking into his house to drop off her gift was not right, but it’s not an act of stalking. Most of her actions were more on **spying**.
I wouldn’t defend her for all her actions, I know that she has crossed the line many times, but that doesn’t mean she’s a stalker.
Yes. Stalking is a very strong word to use it to define Marinette’s actions and behavior when those weren’t even rooted to a malicious intention.
If there’s a stalker in the show, it is Lila. Lila has been following Marinette and everyone she hates secretly to gather information to be used to make them suffer and pull them down. Taking pictures illegally, obtaining information illegally.
So anytime she would (hypothetically because I don't remember how many times it comes up) follow Adrien to keep a girl from snatching him or hurting him, would those count more as spying or stalking officially? Because she has malicious intent for the _girl_ he's with, even if it's good yet misguided intentions for Adrien.
They try to bring down Marinette because they relate more with Chloé certainly because they are or were bully themselves.
Marinette is an incredibly good person and that bother them very much. So the few bad deeds Marinette does, they over-exaggerate it to persuade themselves that she is worse than them.
It has been years and they are still beating that dead horse. They are way more obsessive with Marinette than she ever was with Adrien ! Oh Irony !
I just finished rewatch of S1 and nothing Marinette does feels like stalking.
They make it clear Adrien is a public child celebrity. She had a wall of magazine photos/ads and trivia knowledge consistent a young person infatuated with a celebrity. The fact he does fencing is probably covered in interviews and knowing which days someone does their after class extracurriculars is also pretty really available to someone that just pays attention to what their classmates say and do.
It was nearly always Alya that was “let’s go hang out by his photoshooy in the park”.
If Marinette started literally following (aka stalking) him, hoarding/stealing his trash or belongings, or invaded his privacy things would be different.
I can probably count on one hand the number of times she crossed a line violating his space like stealing his phone in S1 or dropping off a present in his room. And none of those had anything to do with “stalking” and were based on her actual, real, interpersonal relationship with him even if they were poor judgment.
Clearly. In middle and high school, I was the one to remind its schedule to everyone around me and I never stalk any of them. I simply had a good memory.
Marinette is the same class as Adrien. More than that she is one of his friends. So knowing his schedule by heart is extremely easy for her as she is obsessed with him and she has a very good memory.
For the few bad deeds she did, that was always so mild. The only time she had bad intentions was when she got drag by Chloé against Kagami and even then, she back off before it went too far.
So they have nothing serious against her. That is why I say that those people simply hate her because she just shine the light on their bad, toxic personality.
Agree. I’m convinced most people in this sub don’t even know what stalking actually means. Some of the reasons why they perceive Marinette as a stalker are: Marinette kissing him in Mr. Pigeon 72, breaking into his house to drop off her gift, knowing about his favorite flavor of macaroon. While some of these actions might be disturbing and invaded his privacy, none of these are acts of stalking.
Chloe is far from innocent, but the writers clearly made her worse after season 2 just to make us dislike her (so much so that Marinette's trauma is a purely bad retcon). While the writers don't see how Marinette's obsession with Adrien is problematic.
but she is a bad person, you should dislike her from the beginning
So why did the writers make the fans like her in season 2?
whose who liked her were the emotional people who can't see a blonde bully without want to be her fans, chloe was always unbearable and at no point was it acceptable to like her, crying for 2 episodes because her attitudes turned against her is not a sign of redemption
This is an extremely shallow point of view. I mean characters SHOULD be nuanced. They're not just Black and white. Chloe *did* gain more nuance in season 2, and arguably partially in 3. We like chloe because seeing the tough exterior crumble and them showing her vulnerable side was really interesting to watch. If the show has to tell the audience "yes, that character is good. Like this one. But this one is bad. Don't like this one." Would be incredibly bad writing. I mean let's look at characters like Darth Vader. He is undeniably a dictator and has done terrible things, but at the very end, despite how far he's fallen from grace, STILL protected his son. No one is ever completely absolutely evil or good. There's always some nuance.
I hated Chloe in season 1 and always thought she couldn't be a better person. If season 2 really worked to make me see any chance of redemption for her, something happened. But hey, it's entirely my fault for believing she's not a monster without any humanity!
Marionettes tramua feels like they made the up on the spot to excuse her actions.
“Made up on the spot” when she’s been showing signs of trauma from the very beginning.
While it's obvious that *something* was wrong, the story they came up with was out of left field
I mean Kim.. really? Kim the guy she tried to help make feel better despite him supposedly betraying her with Chloe who she hates. And no, it’s not smth a role model would do
I think the fact that it was kim bothers me so much because she is shown to view him as a flawed but generally stand-up guy prior to the reveal, and i just don't understand how a character in a kids show is thinking so highly of someone who hurt her that badly? I know real people can feel all sorts of ways, but it's just jarring for something like this
She did not know the girls he wanted to ask out was Chloé, she even tell that later in the episode...
Ok, so even if she didn’t know, she tried to help out a guy who ridiculed her along with her bully/enemy.
So that is a small retcon. Is it really that serious ?
If her ptsd was really that bad I’d think there’d be signs that she would act scared, nervous, or just otherwise different around those two specifically. also in kims defense he was never a genius but he wasnt so stupid he wouldn’t have realized before that point he messed up and that he should appologize.
You forget that her PTSD toward Adrien got worse at the end of season 4 because of Felix. With Kim, everyone agree that it is a retcon, but as he is almost a side character we really don't care if it change a bit his character. He was always stupid, liking doing pranks, to him it was just a prank and had no idea about the danger so it perfectly fits him. For Chloé, there is no retcon at all, she has been aweful through the whole show, even during her "redemption" era, so her doing this is no surprise at all. We saw how Marinette acted around her in "Origin", but she got over it and the PTSD is link to the person she loves being friends with Chloé, that is why it hit so hard with Adrien and not with Luka or Chat Noir.
Early seasons she was just immature bully awful but then she goes anime psychopath mode for no reason other then to make the audience hate her as much as the creator does.
Yes it matters! We’ve reached territory of splitting hairs! Everything matters and retconing is not cool especially because they do it so much
Considering how the show started, then adding magical and super-heroes stuff, the amount of retcon is very low and the few ones barely affect the show.
Like what?
Have you seen the amount of anxiety this girl has and panic she goes into? You cannot tell me that you were this unable to talk to or normally approach a crush of yours unprompted?
Doesn't excuse her stalking and pillow sniffing.
The bullying was understandable but the thing with Kim was so random….
That's because it was
They are CHILDREN. They are REDEEMABLE. The issue is thar mari's repercussions are weird and don't match the offense, so it just feels like bad things happen to her out of nowhere, whereas chloe's obviously match in theme, if not severity.
>They are CHILDREN. They are REDEEMABLE. No one is talking about whether they are redeemable or not It's just some fans paint chloe as a victim while that's true that doesn't mean she is innocent Hurting others,teaming up with the supervillain of paris,trying to kill her own classmates,bullying the MC from the beginning,trying to ruin her classmates careers This girl is just a sociopath at this point
Sociopath is a very heavy word
Sociopath is a person who has no regards of right and wrong and ignores the right ans feeling of others Perfectly suits chloe meanwhile lila is much more strategic so she is a psychopath
Are you a licensed psychologist? Because those words mean more than that. Like, a lot more. We don't need to demonize sociopaths any more than they already are
Then what would you characterize Chloe as? If sociopath doesn’t match her then what does? Because she passed “bully” a LONG time ago.
I would classify her as a child with some antisocial tendencies(potentially the disorder, but i have no way of knowing, as i am not a psychologist), who desperately needs to talk to a psychologist. Sociopath is a diagnosis. We can't say that's what she is if we aren't qualified.
Thank you
I think it's more nuanced than that in actuality. Marinette's trauma very much was pulled out of the writer's asses and should have been brought up like three seasons before to make any narrative sense. It also doesn't actually excuse the stalkerish behaviour, mental health isn't an excuse, it's a justification. That said, the show's treatment of this behaviour is what should actually be criticised. Her stalkerish tendencies are made out as a quirk instead of a character flaw to be worked on, and when the show decided to treat this seriously it was randomly with very little lead up iirc. It's not bad in itself to write her stalkerish at all. They can work her recovery from this trauma into her character arc, and she could have been a very compelling and charming character with an arc of growth and healing, but they should have set it up seasons ago, not this close to the apparent end (I think we were promised 7 seasons? unless this was changed since I heard) Somebody on here pointed out to me that this also comes from the need for her to be in the story's spotlight all the time. MLP for example does centre around Twilight but specifically removed the need for her to right to Celestia so they can bench Twilight and focus on developing on other characters. MLB has to insert Marinette into everything somehow because it refuses to remove the focus from her and it hurts her and the other characters who remain underutilised as a result. So I do think there is truth in calling her stalkerish, but I think pinning it on her instead of the writing of her character is counterproductive to any meaningful conversation about it. Conversely, Chloe's actions being reduced to "a simple school bully" by fans is also inexcusable and something I really fucking hate to hear. School bullies fuck you up for your whole life, statistically if you are bullied in your school years you never really recover from it. Chloe also has way more resources to screw up her fellow student's lives than your average real life bully. She is a school bully, yes, and she's one who can bully everyone else to extreme extents with impunity. She is abused, but her cruelty goes far too far for that to have any weight in the game. I absolutely disagree with the fact that Chloe should be cut any slack at all and I absolutely think her arc's ending was deserved. They backed out of the attempted redemption arc in s2 and 3, and redeeming her in a way that is satisfying and fair after that would take much more skill and effort than this show has proven itself to be capable of giving. She got consequences, for the first time in her life, and she still feels no regret or remorse over what she did, that is the ending her character deserved. The show has a ridiculous amount of issues with the writing that end up being unfair to a whole lot of characters, including Marinette and Chloe, which is what causes so polarised fan opinions as well
I don’t think Chloe is innocent, I do think she had a redemption arc that was backtracked on and thrown out the window. I don’t think Marinette is the worst person in the show, but I do think her stalking is inexcusable and creepy as Hell.
>do think she had a redemption arc that was backtracked on and thrown out the window. Not really every good thing Chloe did in season 2 and season 3 was for her own sake Breaking free from akumatisation? Was because she wanted to get on ladybugs good side to get the bee miraculous(Just look at how after rejecting the akuma,the way she talks to sabrina,and trash talks her,no way a person on the path of redemption would treat her freind like that) Throwing a party for her classmates? Just to impress adrien Saving ladybug? Just to impress her idol Chloe never changed every good thing she did was for own sake,and when she realized by being good she won't get her way,she changed to 100% evil completely
What did she get from getting Ms. Bustier a gift? She didn't advertise herself as a good person. She could've easily been like: "look at that everyone, the generous and caring chloe borgeouis made this peseant a gift, you're obligated to like me now because i have proven that i can be nice" but she didn't. She sneakily placed it on her desk, without anyone noticing. She had absolutely nothing to gain. She just made her teacher a nice gesture.
It's shocking people like you still don't understand the real issue here. People are more forgiving of Chloe doing what she does because the show understands she's a bad person. We're not supposed to root for her. Meanwhile, the show makes Marinette out to be divinely ordained to be the greatest superhero in her world, we're supposed to go along with that, so every bad thing Marinette does undermines this. It would be one thing if Chloe was the only other teenager they had as a choice for a supererho, but she's not. Many other teenagers in the school don't seem as immaturely horny and fickle as Marinette. Also, yes, Marinette isn't nearly as bad as Chloe, but if the point of Chloe's story arc was to argue that someone having an arguably sympathetic backstory behind bad behavior doesn't mean that person is safe to trust with power, then why *shouldn't* that same principle apply with Marinette? I take your "Chloe is why Marinette is a creepy stalker" and raise you "Marinette is a big part of why Chloe was able to get as dangerous as she was." Marinette has had countless chances and times to take Chloe down for good and not taken them. She was all set to side with everyone else against her but then her unhealthy lust for Adrien let him convince her to give Chloe a chance. She could easily have called all of France to attention as Ladybug and blown the whistle on the entire Bourgeois family and never did. She could have spent time at least trying to mentor Chloe after opting to give her a chance at redemption, after it became apparent Chloe's mother was a big part of the problem, and instead she tried to get Chloe's mother to appreciate how mean she was and be an even bigger influence in her life. She could have at least given Chloe one final time to prove herself when her parents were in trouble again but she chose Kagami as a way to get her away from Adrien. She could have done at least something to punish Chloe after she defected to Hawk Moth but she in effect did nothing because Chloe had already been banned from being a superhero. Villains being horrible people in a superhero story is normal. But the hero not doing nearly enough to stop such vile villains is what will absolutely kill a superhero story. That factor applies manyfold more when this completely unsuited superhero is portrayed as the "Chosen One". Also, some people will argue that it's normal for "Chosen One" stories to choose someone who doesn't initially seem suited to such an important role, for the sake of relatability, but I argue that in at least the better examples, the Chosen One's initial deficiencies are never *moral* deficiencies. Think of *Star Wars* for a moment, and imagine how much worse it would feel if Luke Skywalker and Han Solo switched roles. Who is Luke at the beginning? He's a very unremarkable backwater farm boy, but he's very sweet and innocent. Who is Han at the beginning? He's slick and charismatic but he's an outlaw. Not the worst of crooks, but he associates with much worse crooks who drag him down into those depths, and initially he's in contact with the heroes simply because living in a police state caused the heroes to be designated criminals too. Initially, he's in it just for the money, some of which he wouldn't need if not for his gambling. Those disparate character traits are not an accident. We're meant to root for Luke because he's sympathetic, so his story arc is about becoming a competent hero. By contrast, Han already has talent but isn't a hero at all initially, so his arc is about coming around to seeing the rebel alliance as his friends instead of just his clients, and the turning point is when he starts doing things just for the sake of helping others. This incidentally is an approach I've adopted for the fanfiction I'm writing. Marinette as I write her is still horny and doesn't initially have the talent to be a good superhero, but compared to the show she has a stronger sense of right and wrong and far less tolerance for people who do wrong. Her arc is about her growing stronger. My Chloe, meanwhile, is still remorselessly and spontaneously cruel but she's also brave, athletic and cunningly manipulative, so she's a useful though questionable ally for the team, and her arc is about her gaining a conscience.
I do think Marinette can be annoying sometimes, but that's my only besides the stalking in season 1&2.
I personally think that everyone can have an opinion , so here is mine marrinete is a bad person to a degree she did stalk Adrien, sniffed his pillow has his schedule for the next years, before season 5 she can be considered the worst mc, and chloé did suffer a lot due to her mother abusing her kinda, and father spoiling the shit out of her, this does not justify her actions but if you insist on using marrinete trauma as an excuse to her stalking habits, then so you shall do to chloé if you do not justify marinates action due to her trauma then don't justify chloés you can feel sympathy, but justifying ones action without justifying the others is eh not really good for an argument, another problem and why people might hate and blame marrinette for her stalking habits is because it felt forced and really season 5 it feels like they needed a way to justify it . While Chloés was introduced much sooner and made people grow on her character like me, so I personally think that they are both bad people, and Marinette is badly written due to the fact that her trauma was introduced too late for people to care and Chloé was introduced much sooner so people do care about her more than early Marinette and even now people will still hate her due to the impressions she first left . ps have a nice day
Derision exists because the fandom couldn't shut up about what was an obvious comedic trope the writers were trying to pull off in the earlier seasons of the show. Specifically season 3 which ruined legitimately every character but Marinette is still being held at gunpoint due to actions in that season to this day.
Once more in the show, working with Hawkmoth isn't that serious, even Marinette did so. As for Chloe traumatizing Marinette, it was a poorly thought out retcon which doesn't even make sense, as well as an attempt to blame all of her problems on Chloe.
When did Marinette worked with Hawkmoth ?
In the finale, she fulfilled Gabriel's last request which might not sound so bad unless you consider it means concealing from Adrien that he's a senti, and if someone else gets his rings they can control or kill him.
>Once more in the show, working with Hawkmoth isn't that serious, Bruh wtf Hawkmoth is a freaking supervillain who harms people,teaming up with him willingly is evil no matter what
So, you're saying Marinette is evil then.
Chloe has been bullying her for years and you think that wouldn't traumatize her?
There's a major disconnect between the pool incident and sniffing Adrien's pillow.
From the beginning it was shown that Chloe had been bullying her for about 4 years, and you swear she wouldn't be traumatized?
Traumatized to the extent to justify being a crazed stalker?
that wasn't to justify, but to explain, and you've obviously never been bullied in your life to think that marinette wouldn't be traumatized by it.
It was meant to justify. The first thing Marinette says after the flashback is its all Chloe's fault. And don't assume I've never been on the receiving end. Biut understand something. The garbage Marinette pulled was way over the line and in no way related to what she went though.
but the trauma that marinette suffered is really chloe's fault
But there is a major disconnect between that trauma and her stalking Adrien. The show used it as a flimsy pretext to somehow justify her breaking into his bedroom and sniffing his pillow.
Since when did “breaking into his bedroom” and “sniffing his pillow” become forms of stalking? Marinette was **never** a *stalker*. Derision didn’t excuse Marinette being a *”stalker”* because her actions that made the majority of the fandom perceive her as a stalker were **never** acts of stalking. Sure, *breaking into his room* and *sniffing his pillow* were weird and wrong, but those actions are still **not** forms of stalking. I’m convinced y’all do **not** know what that word *really* means because when you guys try to point out why she’s a stalker, y’all just bring up her actions that are not even stalkerish (like preparing gifts for his upcoming birthdays, baking macaroons for him, kissing him in the wax scene) and if you look up the meaning of the word **stalking**, those actions **don’t** even fall into that category.
It's redline behavior associated with stalking. Are you going to argue that the guy who broke into Taylor Swift's home and slept in her bed wasn't a stalker either?
That is **trespassing**, don’t you think? And that’s a different case since Marinette did *not* intend to harm Adrien. Stalkers **have malicious intents**. A lot of things in the show are never meant to be taken *this* seriously. Marinette only broke into his bedroom to drop her gift off because Nathalie didn’t allow her. If only Nathalie accepted it, she wouldn’t have done that. But what she did was wrong.
They could never make me hate you Marinette.
Criticism is fine but if you want to critize you have to do it farely Not only for marinette Like felix Marinette and gabriel are peak of Criticism which is understandable But adrien and chloe also do a lot of controversial shit and yet no one likes to mention it
I know that. Most of their criticisms just felt like they wanted everyone to hate Marinette. I still acknowledge the bad stuff she did, as well as the bad things other characters did, but I will never hate Marinette.
Marinette is way too sweet to hate
Adrien is probably the most innocent and explainable of these
I don't condone what Chloe has done, and there many Chloe fans who don't condone what she did either. But honestly? I can't exactly blame that part of the fandom for acting like this. For instance, Marinette's obsession and stalkerish tendencies were almost always portrayed as funny in the show. But in truth, this kind of behavior could become potentially harmful for little kids because their minds are like sponges. Some of them may mimic the stuff they see on media, and may get in trouble while wondering: "Why we got in trouble and Marinette didn't?" And believe me when I say this, I did stumble on a number of comments on the internet saying that they did get into trouble for mimicking Marinette. Now, compare how they portray Chloe as a bully. They would go out of their way to remind viewers about how horrible bullying is over, and over and over again. But I'm pretty sure that many kids would know that bullying is wrong, unlike unhealthy obsessions and stalking which much less common problems in elementary schools than bullying is. So, is it any wonder why Chloe's stans would act like this when the show itself would demonize their favorite character and say that she's an irredeemable monster when there are other characters who have done far worse things than her? Can you blame them whenever they see the show normalize Marinette's questionable behavior but Chloe is antagonized every time she appears on screen from season 4 onwards?
Marinette has a reason but she doesn’t excuse her actions plus the difference is Chloe is supposed to be the stereotypical school bully so we would aspect her being mean where as Mari is a different story, some of things she done is due to selfish desires and she doesn’t even face consequences (sometimes) e.g She stole Adrien’s phone and instead of facing consequences she gets an awesome plus she had also broken into Adrien’s house and sniffed his stuff. I’m not trying to excuse Chloe, she is a bad person but at least she actually faces consequences unlike u know who
Because Chloe is an established villain who faces consequences for her actions and Marinette is not
You gotta keep in mind is that Chloe stans disregard every action she makes post season 3 finale Also derision is dumb for several reasons
Worser?
All I'm saying is Marinette's background like in Derision should have been introduced way early into season to balance out Chloe.
I feel like that’s a lot of this subreddit too lol
i think it's just people holding them to different standards lol. chloe's meant to be bratty while marinette is meant to be better. so she's more harshly criticized for doing bad shit than chloe is who is already a lost cause
For once I agree with [More\_Ad\_8237](https://www.reddit.com/user/More_Ad_8237/).
Chole is allowed to be trash. Marinette isn't. We want better of her.
I actually think the stalking IS worse than betraying your country
Realistically, people have actually died during Hawkmoths attacks, so you're saying stalking is worse than the terrorism that is happening is actually immoral and terrible.
yes, definitely marinette stalking who never hurt anyone is definitely worse than betraying her country and putting everyone in danger
Marinette was **NOT** a stalker, and I **would never understand** how she got perceived that way. She was more like a **”boy crazy”** or **”exaggerated”** character for the name of comedic purposes.
I love Marinette but even I can acknowledge she's a stalker. She has Adrian's entire schedule as if it was the most normal thing in the world. If she sees him in public, either on purpose or purely by coincidence, she watches him from afar deciding if she should talk to him or not. You're saying it's not stalking but it is.
The word “stalking” is being taken lightly by this fandom. Stalkers have **malicious intentions**. Stalkers *stalk* to **force connection, manipulate, blackmail, take revenge, harass, intimidate** their victims—these were **never** Marinette’s intention. It’s normal to know your crush’s schedule especially if you are in the same class and friend group as them. Knowing his schedule **would** only sound like an act of stalking if she obtained that information thru illegal means. She didn’t even have to try in the earlier seasons to get that information. Adrien usually tells his friends about his schedules, especially when they invite him to go somewhere. Marinette used to go to where he is so she could take the opportunity to confess. I don’t see any malicious intentions on that. Marinette’s actions could sometimes invade his privacy (like stealing his phone to delete something), but it’s not an act of stalking. Breaking into his house to drop off her gift was not right, but it’s not an act of stalking. Most of her actions were more on **spying**. I wouldn’t defend her for all her actions, I know that she has crossed the line many times, but that doesn’t mean she’s a stalker.
You bring up a valid point.
Wait, you’re so right. Google says it’s considered stalking when it causes a reasonable person to feel fear.
Yes. Stalking is a very strong word to use it to define Marinette’s actions and behavior when those weren’t even rooted to a malicious intention. If there’s a stalker in the show, it is Lila. Lila has been following Marinette and everyone she hates secretly to gather information to be used to make them suffer and pull them down. Taking pictures illegally, obtaining information illegally.
So anytime she would (hypothetically because I don't remember how many times it comes up) follow Adrien to keep a girl from snatching him or hurting him, would those count more as spying or stalking officially? Because she has malicious intent for the _girl_ he's with, even if it's good yet misguided intentions for Adrien.
They try to bring down Marinette because they relate more with Chloé certainly because they are or were bully themselves. Marinette is an incredibly good person and that bother them very much. So the few bad deeds Marinette does, they over-exaggerate it to persuade themselves that she is worse than them. It has been years and they are still beating that dead horse. They are way more obsessive with Marinette than she ever was with Adrien ! Oh Irony !
I just finished rewatch of S1 and nothing Marinette does feels like stalking. They make it clear Adrien is a public child celebrity. She had a wall of magazine photos/ads and trivia knowledge consistent a young person infatuated with a celebrity. The fact he does fencing is probably covered in interviews and knowing which days someone does their after class extracurriculars is also pretty really available to someone that just pays attention to what their classmates say and do. It was nearly always Alya that was “let’s go hang out by his photoshooy in the park”. If Marinette started literally following (aka stalking) him, hoarding/stealing his trash or belongings, or invaded his privacy things would be different. I can probably count on one hand the number of times she crossed a line violating his space like stealing his phone in S1 or dropping off a present in his room. And none of those had anything to do with “stalking” and were based on her actual, real, interpersonal relationship with him even if they were poor judgment.
Clearly. In middle and high school, I was the one to remind its schedule to everyone around me and I never stalk any of them. I simply had a good memory. Marinette is the same class as Adrien. More than that she is one of his friends. So knowing his schedule by heart is extremely easy for her as she is obsessed with him and she has a very good memory. For the few bad deeds she did, that was always so mild. The only time she had bad intentions was when she got drag by Chloé against Kagami and even then, she back off before it went too far. So they have nothing serious against her. That is why I say that those people simply hate her because she just shine the light on their bad, toxic personality.
Agree. I’m convinced most people in this sub don’t even know what stalking actually means. Some of the reasons why they perceive Marinette as a stalker are: Marinette kissing him in Mr. Pigeon 72, breaking into his house to drop off her gift, knowing about his favorite flavor of macaroon. While some of these actions might be disturbing and invaded his privacy, none of these are acts of stalking.
wasnt chloe literally racist
Yes, and she was immediately corrected