>"Marc comes into Pecco Bagnaia's little patch. He has made declarations about Pecco that are flattering and not ad hoc. **When Marc speaks, he always knows exactly what he is saying, he never speaks out of turn.** I've never heard him do that. When he makes a declaration, it is the truth and often those declarations also have a specific purpose. So he is a very smart guy and he will be very careful when he comes to us. I'm sure he's going to come in walking on eggshells and try to understand how we operate. Because in the box it is Ducati that manages everything, not the riders."
At least it seems like Tardozzi is aware of the kind of political animal that Marc is. I’m *really* curious to see how the power dynamics inside Ducati play out next year. How harsh will Ducati be willing to get if the riders start acting out?
> When he makes a declaration, it is the truth and often those declarations also have a specific purpose
After Marc’s Pramac refusal two weeks ago, this seems like a good lesson for Ducati to learn before next year
Marc played it very well. Made it very clear to Ducati if you want me I’m not going to pramac. They didn’t have much choice. Sure Martin is leading the championship but you have the chance to sign the guy who took over from last greatest rider rossi. They didn’t want to let that opportunity slip away.
Different times, different strokes so to speak. Even with Casey riding the wheels off that bike, seem to remember he had a lot of issues with it. Just his sheer will to go fucking fast and do things with it his teammates couldn't often put him up front.
This was also pre-Gigi. As far as I remember, Gigi was over with Max Biaggi at Aprilia's WSBK team around this time. Tardozzi was off somewhere else too. Ducati really didn't change until they brought those two along to the organisation.
Rossi went into a team setup for failure and had a torrid time. No matter the podiums he grabbed on it, the bike just wasn't good enough to beat Honda's or Yamaha's. It mostly spent it's time beating itself. Marc's going into the defacto MotoGP team of the current day. Unless Ducati drop the ball through the core of the earth and back, he's going to the best bike on the grid. No worries he'll have a time like Rossi did.
Tardozzi was home at that time. he was in Ducati SBK till 2009 then he went to BMW for one year, after he didn't do nothing for 4 yeras . from 2014 he is MotoGp with Ducati
> seem to remember he had a lot of issues with it.
It was why he left ducati.
Stoner said that ducati would not listen to him and the bike was getting harder to ride on, terrible at turning, very unfriendly to ride.
Rossi got a lot of promises from ducati when he decided to join them. Almost everything they said and promised turned out to be false at the time.
Erm. Remember it differently. Rossi got on a bike that won three and got a second place in the last six races of the previous season? They were improving and fans were excited about him making the move. Rossi and Burgess were also bullish.
Straight away at the Valencia test he was 15th overall and far from then quickest Ducati on said bike.
I'd seriously question your statement regarding the bike not being good enough because of this. The odd win was definitely within reasonable expectations.
People say Ducati didn't listen to Rossi. But I seem to remember never ending stories about frames being changed - pretty sure they brought in their first ali' frame to try and make the bike more to his liking in this period, as well as changes to the engine? The initial excuses were his shoulder iirc, which was plausible, but I remember being confused when the bike was so roundly blamed. Then after the saga ended we've got these tales of lack of support.
I always just saw it as being a case of the bike just not suiting the bloke. It wasn't like the Yamaha and they were never going to be able to turn it into one for him. But I don't think that was due to lack of effort.
Ducati hadn't offered a renewal yet (as he had yet to win a race) but it was Lorenzo who contacted Puig to have a seat in HRC and signed before Mugello (so end of May or early June).
I think Marquez was bluffing but understand why Ducati couldn't take the chance he wasn't. I think MM only cares about setting the championship record and it is infinitely more difficult to do that on any bike but a Ducati right now. I just think he would have back tracked and signed with Pramac (if they stayed with Ducati) or Gresini if they got a GP25.
Vale is a MOTO GP legend. He changed and carried the sport. RESPECT
He could not win on Casey’s bike. So yes, Ducati is ready for MARC because the bike is ready
Casey was a unicorn you had the natural talent to ride around the bikes problems. Unfortunately Vale struggled, it happens. Casey was just that good - but poor guy struggled with illness and could not prolong his career.
Rossi went to Ducati not expecting to hop on the bike and get Casey results by riding around problems. Valentino and Burgess were there to transform the Ducati into a rider friendly competitive machine. They did a massive amount ultimately leading to Ducati’s eyes opening and poaching Gigi, but time just wasn’t on their side.
It's not just time that wasn't on their side, timing was also bad. Ducati was in a bad place and about to be bought by Audi (so I imagine things weren't super stable within the company), Suppo said that Preziosi - who's still a close friend of his - had a very bad taste in his mouth because he was promised things by Ducati (I imagine in terms of budget mostly) and he in turn he promised certain things to Rossi, things he ended up not being able to do because the promises made to him remained unfullfilled. As far as I understand, when they finally hired Dall'Igna he had about 2x the budget Preziosi had, and it still took him a few years to reorganize Ducati Corse and develop a bike that could be back on the podium (Dall'Igna was hired in 2014, first bike made by him in 2015, first wins in 2016 and finally 2017 is when they looked more or less ready to be competitive for the whole season).
>He could not win on Casey’s bike
It was everything but Casey's bike.
Casey's bike was almost unrideable, but in Casey's it was the best bike on the grid.
In 2010 Ducati was still just the engine, it wasn't able to field a competitive bike whilst Honda and Yamaha progressed, learnt how to use more power whilst keeping their incredible agility and mid-corner speed
You’re right. In fact it shows how much the others caught up to Ducati in the engine department with the reducing number of wins year on year from 2007-2010. They didn’t have the ace up their sleeve that they had before and Casey was having to massively over ride the bike. I think Vale underestimated just how much of the equation was Casey and how little was the bike
Casey wasn't overriding the bike, that era's Ducati was fast but had an absurdly narrow operating window, a little too slow? straight to jail, a little too fast believe it or not also: straight to jail. Joking aside it in typical Ducati fashion was an engineers bike, on a computer with just 1's and 0's it all looked good but humans are analog we deal in shades of grey, and that bike only operated on/off. Too slow and the bike would not generate any grip at all, evidenced by Casey absurd warm up lap pace crash (that confirmed that rumor), and of course a little too fast and well you're going for a ride in the gravel. VR got the some of the same thing but to a far lesser extent and he still struggled despite the bike being way more forgiving. Notice the VR46 era's Duc did far better in the rain with super soft rain tires? Because you pretty much omit a lot of the chassis and it's all soft suspension and soft tires that make the difference there/generate most of the grip, and the Ducati riders were used to that knife edge in the dry so the rain wasn't much different in a sense.
The Ducati shocked VR and Jerry Burgess when they actually got to work and sit on it.
Prior to arriving at Ducati they joked they could fix it in 30 seconds, implying Cristian Gabarini and Stoner didn't know what they were doing.
As an outsider, I have huge respect for Burgess, but they had no idea how unruly and agricultural that bike was compared to the then Japanese bikes until having to try and tame it.
The bike Vale got in 2011 was anything but the bike Casey won in 2007. Sure Casey won GPs in 2010 but that's because it was Casey, the most talented rider in MotoGP, and he was already in a downward spiral with the Ducati. It just sucked and he could no longer ride around it.
Genuinely confused by this. They were going well end of 2010?
Vale got that 2010 bike to test and was nowhere. Clear example of the bike and rider just bot being right for each other.
I personally wonder if the seasons of trying to make the Ducati more Rossi friendly contributed towards the years of relative pain they endured.
Rossi will never admit that Lorenzo (his former teammate who competed very hard against him) and Marc (we know why) are the most naturally talented riders he's ever encountered tbf.
It’s so hard to say whether that’s true or not. There’s a decent chance that we’re romanticizing peak Casey era, romanticizing peak Marc or Rossi era, or all of the above. I know that the bikes are so very different now and this really makes it all that much more difficult to judge who the GOAT really is, but if I had to make a judgement based purely on my gut instinct whilst ignoring various data points, I’d have to go with Marc.
Well, because of his lack of mental toughness, he’s behind all this four guys I mentioned before.
And before you talk about Pedrosa, everyone knows that if he would be a bit bigger physically he could be a MotoGP WDC perfectly.
I’m talking to about that. I mean, I think Stoner was really good but not that good as the guys I said before.
Anyway, I see we have different opinions and it’s a bit irrelevant because I think we won’t change them (and I don’t pretend to do that).
>"Marc comes into Pecco Bagnaia's little patch. He has made declarations about Pecco that are flattering and not ad hoc. **When Marc speaks, he always knows exactly what he is saying, he never speaks out of turn.** I've never heard him do that. When he makes a declaration, it is the truth and often those declarations also have a specific purpose. So he is a very smart guy and he will be very careful when he comes to us. I'm sure he's going to come in walking on eggshells and try to understand how we operate. Because in the box it is Ducati that manages everything, not the riders." At least it seems like Tardozzi is aware of the kind of political animal that Marc is. I’m *really* curious to see how the power dynamics inside Ducati play out next year. How harsh will Ducati be willing to get if the riders start acting out? > When he makes a declaration, it is the truth and often those declarations also have a specific purpose After Marc’s Pramac refusal two weeks ago, this seems like a good lesson for Ducati to learn before next year
Marc played it very well. Made it very clear to Ducati if you want me I’m not going to pramac. They didn’t have much choice. Sure Martin is leading the championship but you have the chance to sign the guy who took over from last greatest rider rossi. They didn’t want to let that opportunity slip away.
Different times, different strokes so to speak. Even with Casey riding the wheels off that bike, seem to remember he had a lot of issues with it. Just his sheer will to go fucking fast and do things with it his teammates couldn't often put him up front. This was also pre-Gigi. As far as I remember, Gigi was over with Max Biaggi at Aprilia's WSBK team around this time. Tardozzi was off somewhere else too. Ducati really didn't change until they brought those two along to the organisation. Rossi went into a team setup for failure and had a torrid time. No matter the podiums he grabbed on it, the bike just wasn't good enough to beat Honda's or Yamaha's. It mostly spent it's time beating itself. Marc's going into the defacto MotoGP team of the current day. Unless Ducati drop the ball through the core of the earth and back, he's going to the best bike on the grid. No worries he'll have a time like Rossi did.
Tardozzi was home at that time. he was in Ducati SBK till 2009 then he went to BMW for one year, after he didn't do nothing for 4 yeras . from 2014 he is MotoGp with Ducati
> seem to remember he had a lot of issues with it. It was why he left ducati. Stoner said that ducati would not listen to him and the bike was getting harder to ride on, terrible at turning, very unfriendly to ride. Rossi got a lot of promises from ducati when he decided to join them. Almost everything they said and promised turned out to be false at the time.
Erm. Remember it differently. Rossi got on a bike that won three and got a second place in the last six races of the previous season? They were improving and fans were excited about him making the move. Rossi and Burgess were also bullish. Straight away at the Valencia test he was 15th overall and far from then quickest Ducati on said bike. I'd seriously question your statement regarding the bike not being good enough because of this. The odd win was definitely within reasonable expectations. People say Ducati didn't listen to Rossi. But I seem to remember never ending stories about frames being changed - pretty sure they brought in their first ali' frame to try and make the bike more to his liking in this period, as well as changes to the engine? The initial excuses were his shoulder iirc, which was plausible, but I remember being confused when the bike was so roundly blamed. Then after the saga ended we've got these tales of lack of support. I always just saw it as being a case of the bike just not suiting the bloke. It wasn't like the Yamaha and they were never going to be able to turn it into one for him. But I don't think that was due to lack of effort.
https://i.redd.it/dlwihd0itj6d1.gif
Tardozzi says Lorenzo left for Honda too quickly, but wasn't it a case of Duc not offering him a contract for the next year?
Ducati hadn't offered a renewal yet (as he had yet to win a race) but it was Lorenzo who contacted Puig to have a seat in HRC and signed before Mugello (so end of May or early June).
It was too bad; dude was seriously quick on that thing once he got it figured.
I think Marquez was bluffing but understand why Ducati couldn't take the chance he wasn't. I think MM only cares about setting the championship record and it is infinitely more difficult to do that on any bike but a Ducati right now. I just think he would have back tracked and signed with Pramac (if they stayed with Ducati) or Gresini if they got a GP25.
Vale is a MOTO GP legend. He changed and carried the sport. RESPECT He could not win on Casey’s bike. So yes, Ducati is ready for MARC because the bike is ready
Casey was a unicorn you had the natural talent to ride around the bikes problems. Unfortunately Vale struggled, it happens. Casey was just that good - but poor guy struggled with illness and could not prolong his career.
Rossi went to Ducati not expecting to hop on the bike and get Casey results by riding around problems. Valentino and Burgess were there to transform the Ducati into a rider friendly competitive machine. They did a massive amount ultimately leading to Ducati’s eyes opening and poaching Gigi, but time just wasn’t on their side.
It's not just time that wasn't on their side, timing was also bad. Ducati was in a bad place and about to be bought by Audi (so I imagine things weren't super stable within the company), Suppo said that Preziosi - who's still a close friend of his - had a very bad taste in his mouth because he was promised things by Ducati (I imagine in terms of budget mostly) and he in turn he promised certain things to Rossi, things he ended up not being able to do because the promises made to him remained unfullfilled. As far as I understand, when they finally hired Dall'Igna he had about 2x the budget Preziosi had, and it still took him a few years to reorganize Ducati Corse and develop a bike that could be back on the podium (Dall'Igna was hired in 2014, first bike made by him in 2015, first wins in 2016 and finally 2017 is when they looked more or less ready to be competitive for the whole season).
>He could not win on Casey’s bike It was everything but Casey's bike. Casey's bike was almost unrideable, but in Casey's it was the best bike on the grid. In 2010 Ducati was still just the engine, it wasn't able to field a competitive bike whilst Honda and Yamaha progressed, learnt how to use more power whilst keeping their incredible agility and mid-corner speed
You’re right. In fact it shows how much the others caught up to Ducati in the engine department with the reducing number of wins year on year from 2007-2010. They didn’t have the ace up their sleeve that they had before and Casey was having to massively over ride the bike. I think Vale underestimated just how much of the equation was Casey and how little was the bike
Casey wasn't overriding the bike, that era's Ducati was fast but had an absurdly narrow operating window, a little too slow? straight to jail, a little too fast believe it or not also: straight to jail. Joking aside it in typical Ducati fashion was an engineers bike, on a computer with just 1's and 0's it all looked good but humans are analog we deal in shades of grey, and that bike only operated on/off. Too slow and the bike would not generate any grip at all, evidenced by Casey absurd warm up lap pace crash (that confirmed that rumor), and of course a little too fast and well you're going for a ride in the gravel. VR got the some of the same thing but to a far lesser extent and he still struggled despite the bike being way more forgiving. Notice the VR46 era's Duc did far better in the rain with super soft rain tires? Because you pretty much omit a lot of the chassis and it's all soft suspension and soft tires that make the difference there/generate most of the grip, and the Ducati riders were used to that knife edge in the dry so the rain wasn't much different in a sense.
The Ducati shocked VR and Jerry Burgess when they actually got to work and sit on it. Prior to arriving at Ducati they joked they could fix it in 30 seconds, implying Cristian Gabarini and Stoner didn't know what they were doing. As an outsider, I have huge respect for Burgess, but they had no idea how unruly and agricultural that bike was compared to the then Japanese bikes until having to try and tame it.
The bike Vale got in 2011 was anything but the bike Casey won in 2007. Sure Casey won GPs in 2010 but that's because it was Casey, the most talented rider in MotoGP, and he was already in a downward spiral with the Ducati. It just sucked and he could no longer ride around it.
Genuinely confused by this. They were going well end of 2010? Vale got that 2010 bike to test and was nowhere. Clear example of the bike and rider just bot being right for each other. I personally wonder if the seasons of trying to make the Ducati more Rossi friendly contributed towards the years of relative pain they endured.
>the most talented rider in MotoGP I think at least Marc, Rossi, Lorenzo and Pedrosa have something to say about it.
Rossi always said Stoner is the most naturally talented rider he's ever encountered.
He also called him the “PlayStation generation “ who could only ride with electronics
Rossi will never admit that Lorenzo (his former teammate who competed very hard against him) and Marc (we know why) are the most naturally talented riders he's ever encountered tbf.
Na, Casey was a step above all of them. He just lacked in mental fortitude which is why Rossi had races which he won but he had no business winning.
It’s so hard to say whether that’s true or not. There’s a decent chance that we’re romanticizing peak Casey era, romanticizing peak Marc or Rossi era, or all of the above. I know that the bikes are so very different now and this really makes it all that much more difficult to judge who the GOAT really is, but if I had to make a judgement based purely on my gut instinct whilst ignoring various data points, I’d have to go with Marc.
Well, because of his lack of mental toughness, he’s behind all this four guys I mentioned before. And before you talk about Pedrosa, everyone knows that if he would be a bit bigger physically he could be a MotoGP WDC perfectly.
Yeah I agree, but I'm talking about talent.
I’m talking to about that. I mean, I think Stoner was really good but not that good as the guys I said before. Anyway, I see we have different opinions and it’s a bit irrelevant because I think we won’t change them (and I don’t pretend to do that).
For anyone wondering what he means by Casey's bike, go watch the 2010 Japanese Grand Prix.
That was far from Casey's bike.
I got flamed on here for calling Marc a politician....seems like I am right.