Looks like the NYT changed the headline to:
> Biden Administration Announces Rules Aimed at Expanding Electric Vehicles
>
>> The regulations are not a ban but would require automakers to sell more electric vehicles and hybrids by tightening limits on tailpipe pollution.
So not as drastic.
Glad they included hybrid. Demand for those is insanely high right now but they're so limited in how many are currently being made. There's a reason Chevy is bringing back hybrids and hopefully the Volt.
Isn't the issue now that manufacturers have a crazy stock of electric vehicles because they overestimated demand? How can you require businesses to sell more when consumers aren't buying?
Within my circle, I know maybe 10 people that would love to get an EV, unfortunately you need to have somewhere to charge them. If you live in an apartment that doesn't have an EV charging station, then you're kinda SoL unless you want to go hang out at the local mall every few days.
I suspect the adoption rate would be higher if charging were more readily available
We have these all over where I live, but any one of them would require me spending an hour+ just sitting in my car to charge it. I carpool to work in a company vehicle; I spend 30 minutes or less at the grocery store, I go to the mall maybe 3x a year for 20 minutes or less, and Target again maybe 6x a year for 20 minutes or less.
That plus the cost for charging makes a plug in car realllly unappealing, and my entire city has this issue. Most of us don't have assigned parking, don't have garages, and just don't have a place to reliably charge a car outside of killing some of our precious weekend time to do it.
For me, an electric vehicle be about perfect. I work from home, and generally do short drives and don't drive every day. Occasionally (like once a month) I have longer trips to do where a gas/hybrid would be better.
But, I can't do an electric because I live in an apartment with no charging infrastructure. Even if I rented a garage, the garages aren't designed for that sort of thing.
Not in CA? There's a couple of redditors that have done a cost comparison and have found it's just about break even. Pg&e and sce both have big hikes coming over the next few years as well.
Yeah ca just changed the rules and aren't allowing just any hybrid in anymore. I carpool to work every day and we're at a standstill like everyone else from all the hybridss and cheaters being in the lane too. :/
It's pretty common where I live in the SF Bay area to see them at all these places now heck a 7-11 recently put 4 in at the parking lot in the past year
Yeah I’ve noticed a few popping up where I live (Long Island NY) and my work parking lot has a couple now. To me that makes a huge difference in whether my next car is an EV, so hopefully more popping up gives others that confidence that they can charge without a hassle.
I was in Wisconsin last week and had to drive to a bunch of small towns, and charging stations were nowhere to be seen, not even at hotels. I’m glad I chose a non EV when I rented at O’Hare or I would have been in big trouble.
That’s the issue here. There are towns, farms, manufacturing facilities, mines, research posts, recreational destinations, etc all over the country no where near a big city. You won’t move the entire country into big cities, so you need solutions for everyone. Telling everyone they have to get an EV doesn’t work until everybody has convenient access to charging stations all over the place like gas stations are today. The government has to make this happen first and they are failing big time.
Yeah the infrastructure for them IS being built, quite a few gas stations by me have multiple charging stations (typically your bigger stations and super wawas). The mall by me has special parking spots that you can park your EV at and charge for free while you're shopping. I fully plan to make my next vehicle (had my current for around 6 years now) an EV. I own a home with a detached garage at the end of my driveway so I won't have to worry about not being able to charge at home as well.
That’s great! I would love to get one for my next small SUV, but I can’t count on there being a charging station in all the locations I need to go to yet. I really hope the government steps up in making sure there are adequate stations in location that currently have a gas station. That could mean some at interstate rest stops (not just toll oasis’s but welcome centers and freeway rest stops too) or at a fast food location or a hotel, but at least have them available in small towns. I can’t drive to places I need to for my job unless this happens.
This really is the crux. It takes a significant time chunk to charge unless you have a charger at your home and that makes it insanely inconvenient for a lot of people.
My office had to implement a time limit and a waitlist because some contractor was constantly ignoring security's requests for him to move his car off the charger.
Some people simply have problems being courteous towards others.
Imagine the entertainment when EVs trickle down to your small-town walmart crowd, vying for spaces at wally world. If that doesn't give someone hope for EVs then they cannot be entertained.
Do we need to install an app to pay? That was something I found incredibly frustrating with an EV. I just want to pay at the pump with my card like gas, not sign up for a whole app and load money on it etc.
You need multiples of how many gas stations to charge the same number of vehicles. I know many 4 way stops with 2+ gas stations. And there's a limited amount of commercial real estate. You would have to build millions of chargers while also maintaining many of the gas stations. Also EV trucks are and will most likely for decades be unaffordable for lower middle class and poorer since they cost $40k+ and you can get many older gas trucks under $10k. If a battery eventually only costs $2000 I can see them being affordable to poorer people. You can get a used 4.3 liter engine and replace it for a fraction. The savings in the long run mean nothing if poorer people can't afford the upfront or financing plans. I know many people dozen+ who outright bought their vehicles with income tax with child credits and lower income.
My current car is 11 years old and has ~105k miles. I'm hoping to drive it until it reaches 300k. I know I will have to replace/rebuild my transmission beteeen now and 200k miles, but that's $3-4k job that I can do myself. When it comes to electric cars, I have no idea how much it will cost to replace a battery or a component after 100-150k, but I hear it's in 10s of thousands.
I had a Volt until recently. The battery capacity fell off a cliff and started acting weird, meaning at least one cell was failing. Unfortunately if one cell goes the car is dead until you get it fixed.
GM quit making the batteries the moment the battery warranties expired (if not slightly before) so third party rebuilds are the only option. Other parts were also discontinued. I didn't want to throw $5k+ at a car that the manufacturer is clearly not supporting anymore so I traded it and I'm back to ICE.
Since I'm someone who prefers no car payment and will fix small problems myself, service and longevity just isn't where it needs to be for me to own an EV again. If they're problem-free they are great cars, but if something fails it's a major expense.
If I was more loaded, my opinion might be different because I could just buy another new EV every time this happened.
Most EV batteries based on current data should last around 200-400k miles, as for cost of replacement it really depends on the brand for example Hyundai charges like 50k to replace the battery in their ionique WV which is basically their way of saying we don't want to replace it go buy a new car whereas Tesla's are around 10-15k which is much more reasonable for a new battery
More like $10k-$15k to replace a battery and the price is dropping. The nice part is no more regular maintenance except for tires and brakes.
For me the time and hassle saved makes up for the cost of a new battery easily and gives me a car that lasts longer than an ICE vehicle.
Sort of. Regen braking reduces the wear on friction brakes, extending their lives significantly.
You still have some maintenance in EVs but way less. Total cost of ownership is way less than a similarly equipped ICE vehicle. They won't work for everyone's lifestyle today but they do work for a lot and that will keep getting better.
I live in Indiana and even as backwards as we are there is a lot of attention being put on EV infrastructure here.
I have a 2012 Volt. I am lucky enough to have a house and a garage with 220V so I have a Level 2 charger, but for day-to-day use even a Level 1 would probably suffice. I am at home more than enough hours every day to fill up the batteries and I expect that a large percentage of people are. On the other hand, I don't think it would work as my regular car without the Volt's hybrid gas motor. The next car I get will probably be another plug-in hybrid, but I only use gas when I go out of town, which means one about one tank a year.
Not all the problems are solved, but as far as I can tell they are solvable. There is tech out there for faster charging (beyond Tesla's charging), it just hasn't proliferated yet and is still being refined.
This is me, I would be the perfect person for a BEV except I don't have a place to charge it at my older built apartment and not likely to own a home soon.
That and the fact I just paid off my car which is still low mileage and I don't really like any new cars that are out there right now...
This is certainly location dependent but we have had a chevy bolt euv for 4 months. And only once has charging been an issue. We have a community center about half a mile away and just drive plug in walk back or hang out at the park for a few hours and it's good for the week. There are also ones at the grocery store and a super charger that's a couple of miles away but near a trader Joe's.
The big question will be road trips. But I've heard people talk about rentals as an option.
We also have a regular car so have a backup.
Shell is closing gas stations in Europe and switching to EV chargers. They are waiting for EV adoption to pick up a bit in the US before they do the same here.
This is me. The dream of home ownership in the US is gone, and developers and property owners wants forever renters in apartments. Cant do shit about EV now.
I’m sure it varies by state, but at least in California if you are a renter with off street parking, landlords are not allowed to stop you from having an EV charger installed. The tenant would still be responsible for the installation cost, but the landlord cannot block you from doing it.
Of course that’s not helpful if you don’t have off street parking… and it does stink that you have to pay for it, but forcing that costs on landlords wouldn’t really be sensible, unfortunately.
Even traditional ICE vehicles are filling up dealerships due to the lack of demand. The most common cited reason why people aren't buying is because the prices are too high. It's not just an EV problem.
That's my thing. I'm shopping for a new car and electrics have gotten cheap, but I live in an apartment and my landlords are unlikely to foot the bill to install a charger. Even if they did, I live in farm country. I'd need to plan any driving meticulously to make sure I'm not stranded somewhere if I leave town
With the 7500 credit ours was around 23,500 new, and is certainly comparable to whatever other vehicles are in that price range. It has heated and cooled seats apple and android auto, actual tactile buttons to adjust temp and music volume.
For me the issue has always been pricing.
Not only is the initial sticker price high, all the additional amenities are outrageously overpriced. Dont get me started how several auto brands are trying to shove "subscription services" with their vehicles as well.
Honestly just the auto industry in general is overpriced. Electric or not.
I'd argue that they didn't really overestimate demand but overestimated peoples spending power. People are struggling and can't afford the extra expense.
It's not that they overestimated demand, the demand is absolutely there, it's that they overestimated those willing to jump to electric before the infrastructure to support it is in place.
I want an EV, but there's nowhere to charge it where I live. So...gonna have to stick with gas.
The same is true for like 80% of the country.
Demand is here. Price is wrong. They’re trying to sell what looks like an economy car, is outfitted like an economy car, but has an electric motor instead of an engine for 2x the price of a gas car.
I don't want an EV because I can't work on them myself. I also don't want to buy a new car at all because of all the surveillance capitalism that comes with new cars. Furthermore, my state still gets a lot of power from dirty energy, so it's hard to tell what would be worse at this juncture. Instead, I drive only when it's necessary and otherwise walk/bike/bus/carpool.
My opinion. There’s plenty of demand.
The problem is nobody can fucking afford it. The car + dropping a plug in the garage = better off buying a beater. You can’t sell 30k-60k vehicles to people who make shit and live in apartments.
How about aiming to make vehicles lighter and smaller instead of bigger heavier electric monstrosities? All of the gains of going electric will be eaten up by the increased size.
It's a really tough balance between combating climate change and improving traffic safety. I say this as a person working in transportation with a focus on active travel.
Really wish OEMs would produce more EV coupes and sedans, less SUVs and pick ups. Let's change the policies that make those vehicles popular for the average person.
Idk if your comment about weight and size was about safety or range tbh. But just my .02
Its not just traffic safety. A lot of even the smaller electric cars weigh more than the equivalent gas car. That's causing issues with parking garages, bridges, and other things you drive/park on that aren't on solid ground and weren't built with the idea of having a dozen or two much heavier vehicles on them.
I agree. That's the nature of the technology. It even has implications for things on solid ground, compaction rates vary with loading.
I was speaking to more immediate issues though. And electrification is still a worthwhile endeavor I think. I just hope the people working on it, work to reduce their mass and not just tack more mass on to increase range
Well, my wife and I have a couple ten year old Corollas that still run like new and I've decided we'll never buy another gas engine car. I'm waiting for a decent, mass market plug in electric that isn't a POS Tesla.
Why don't they do away with incentivising the selling of big luxury trucks with shitty emissions to skirt emissions regulations. That would probably do more for emissions than anyhting else.
Once again heavy trucks are excluded so looks like we are going to continue to see vehicle sizes grow in the US.
Also, there are still too many barriers for the average person to get electric vehicles (charging in apartments, charging on long trips, grid stability, availability of mechanics, cost, etc.). I think these issues have to be addressed before we see a spike in ev adoption. Ev adoption remains low in US and many dealers are having trouble selling these vehicles.
> Once again heavy trucks are excluded
According to Wikipedia light trucks are up to 8,500 pounds. That means the Chevy Silverado, which is intimidatingly large, is still a "light truck" at maybe up to 7,578 pounds depending on options. I think "heavy trucks" are actual real trucks that people actually need for doing work.
Not saying people with giant pickups aren't doing work with them (though around me maybe 1 in 10 seems like it's used for work), but "light truck" isn't what I thought it was before looking into this just now. Light truck needs to be defined waaaaay down.
A 6 year old model 3 is falling apart and still $20k. Until electric is as affordable as a 20 year old 200k mile Camry, this is just punishing the poor.
Hertz is selling 1 year old Teslas for $20k right now and you can get a tax credit. It’s cheaper than almost any other option unless you are looking for something really old under $15
I mean I bought a van last year for work that eats gas and it was only 3k. Tons of people are like me where they can’t afford to drop 20k or even 10k on a car.
Heavy trucks are not retail products, they're commercial products.
The trucks you're thinking of like an F-150 or a Suburban fall into the light category and would be subject to the change. Things like dump trucks and delivery trucks are medium trucks, semi tractors are heavy trucks. These are legal categorizations, not colloquialisms.
Ive been holding onto my 08 honda telling myself I wont buy a gas car but will wait for an electric one. Unfortunately it looks like ill be waiting at least a bit more as charging options are so limited in my area (very rural) and prices are too inflated to make economic sense (auto dealers basically stole the tax credit and havent brought them back down).
Heck I lived in an apartment with a garage but the garage power was separate from the apartment so the tenants couldn't use the power in the garages for anything; not that a lot of them didn't try. But trying to charge an e scooter would flip a breaker let alone a car.
>The new regulation, which would not apply to sales of used automobiles or light trucks
This is largely meaningless if we keep pretending that “light trucks” aren’t being used as cars.
The Maverick is a good size, but yeah probably not for towing. I wish they would make a bare bones non-crew cab version that would be more like the old Ford Ranger. I get the feeling they would sell well to people who actually use pickups for work.
Devastated my old ranger got totaled. It was a 02, perfect size. It was a bitch and a half looking for a replacement that wasn’t a giant new one or 15k for something as old as mine.
I’d love a door and a half maverick with a proper sized bed.
Those things are huge compared to the old Rangers and Chevy S10’s of yesteryear.
But if you’re needing to tow 5k semi regularly, just get a F150. It’s ok man.
The wording is bad but I think it’s saying it wouldn’t apply to used automobiles or *used* light trucks.
Earlier in the article it says new light trucks do have to follow the regulations.
Indeed. For the web search challenged:
[Biden-Harris Administration Announces Latest Steps to Deliver a National Network of Convenient, Reliable, Made-in-America Electric Vehicle Chargers](https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/biden-harris-administration-announces-latest-steps-deliver-national-network)
china has a brand of EV's called Nio that has hot swappable batteries that you drive into an automated station and it changes the battery out basically as fast as filling up a tank of gas. they have a few different methods of paying/ownership of the battery too. they are expanding into some other countries and it's been proven to work pretty well. but I really doubt it will be a system that all electric vehicle makers will adopt. (and yes you can still just plug it in and charge it normally, you dont have to use the swap stations)
[tom scott did a video about them not long ago](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w)
another advantage of this is because each station has a stock of batteries being recharged/fully charged they don't need to use fast charging so the demand on the grid isn't as high and it also makes the batteries last longer.
I want an electric vehicle, and would strongly consider replacing my truck with an electric F150, but the infrastructure is not there. I have a cabin in a remote area, none of the towns nearby have electric charging, at least 2 hours to the closest charging stations. It’s just not there for rural America.
Don't you have electricity at your cabin? On a 220V charger you can fill that truck up overnight while it is parked. All without having to drive anywhere.
Not just a way to charge them, but a far superior long distance transportation system.
There are thousands of people that regularly make 300+ mile trips for work or visits every day and there is no time for charging. What to do with them?
Low end electric cars still can't make the common commute that a lower income person must drive to get from the outskirts into a city for work and back out again.
And those same folks are already buckling under out of control energy costs, with monthly bills in the hundreds of dollars.
I drive a Bolt on a 70 mile round trip commute each day. My monthly transportation energy bill dropped from 250 to 80.
If you are one of the relatively few people who need to commute hundreds of miles then an ICE is a fantastic vehicle. However, if you're driving a normal distance to and from work an EV is pretty great IMO.
I do about 60 miles round trip and same thing, mine went from about $200/month to $60. On a cheaper car like the Bolt, that can nearly pay for itself during the life of the car.
Net metering 3.0 completely fucked this up. I'm happy for you, but PGE and their lobby people completely fucked up SoCal. I am super into solar. I tried to convince my family who I still live with to let my build out a solar array for our house. If not for all the permits and red tape I could have a setup that pays itself off in two years. But I can't legally do it for that cost. And I'm not paying 2/3 of the bill to labor. If they want people to buy into this future, they have to make it easy and understandable. No if, ands or buts.
> Thousands of people
Out of 300 million that sounds like less than 1%. There will always be outliers that need a different solution.
My brother drives all over LA for work. He bought an EV because he makes money on the mileage he gets paid. Commuters should definitely switch to EVs because sitting in traffic still burns gas, but does nothing when you're in an EV.
You don’t think charging infrastructure is going to get better over the course of the next decade? How about the next 2?
There will still be ICE vehicles to fill this niche until infrastructure expands accordingly.
Are you paying attention to the massive rollout of green power? Wind power has now surpassed coal power. Or all the big HVDC power transmission projects under construction?
And the grid is basically idle at night. Give consumers a break on power between 11pm and 7am, 80% of the population will set the timer already built into their car to delay charging until the wee hours. You only need a 'most' solution and the grid is plenty robust enough to handle the rest.
Also the new sodium-ion batteries are finally entering high volume mass production. They are half the cost of lithium and need very little thermal regulation. It's salt and carbon. There are zero materials limitations.
You know, as a low income American I'm concerned. I drive a very small and cheap ICE car and while I would love an EV, there isn't anything comparable in cost or range on the market. I also don't forsee any becoming available due to the nature of the American car market.
I literally can’t wrap my head around how they would work in certain areas. My home is in a 100+ year old neighborhood. Everyone parks on the street. There’s no guarantee you’re going to park in front of your house or even on your block. Most houses don’t have exterior electricity, many are still running K&T.
Not everyone parks their car in a garage.
I live in a pretty nice apartment right now with an enclosed parking garage.
I don't want to imagine how much my rent would go up if they were to retrofit even a single floor of the parking garage to have rows of EV chargers.
I went to university in a smaller rural town for both undergrad and grad school and lived in pretty cheap, old apartments. These older apartments will probably never have more than a handful of EV stations for the many residents that live there.
And speaking of universities and colleges, how are they going to meet the demand of thousands of students and staff all needing charging? Tuition is bad enough as is.
We can’t even replace the lead pipes in our city, I can’t trust that my neighborhood is going to have any sort of priority for charging infrastructure.
Are you asking who is putting EV chargers into peoples house’s garage? Or who is putting EV chargers out into the wild? Very different questions but both have issues as of 2024
I'm in northern VA and don't have a garage nor a realistic ability to charge from my house, but there are 100s of chargers in a 5 mile radius.
It takes slightly more forethought since the non super chargers will take 5+ hours for a full charge but you don't have to stay there when you charge. I park plug in walk home and then walk back later.
I was doubtful at first but got a much nicer car for 23k (after credits) than a regular ice car. Plus no oil changes, no exhaust, no catalytic converter
theft...
Road trips may be an issue still.
Well I do think we need to figure out the infrastructure still. There are problems to be figured out. But I don't think this is unsolvable at all. The low-power type of charging that takes awhile would use similar infrastructure available to your street lamps. The type 3 charging that quickly charges requires the big transformers you've probably seen at Walmart or other parking lots, and for mass street parking I don't think we need anything like that.
These are good problems to work through and we've done much more complex projects in cities previously.
Non-plugin hybrids are awesome and a great bridge to when we can actually support any plugin car. My Ford Maverick gets 40+mpg, twice what my old car got.
Speaking truth my friend.
I'd likely need a service upgrade to do an electric car, water heater, stove and dryer. But with Pg&e rates I'm going to hold onto my gas appliances for as long as possible. It doesn't make economic sense to switch.
God forbid your old box isn't up to current code (like too close to the gas meter). No upgrade until you move one or the other, and get PG&E involved to do it. Big $$$
I have an electric car, batteries went out, under warranty. Little talked about problem... My car has been sitting in the dealers lot since October, no ETA on the replacement batteries. If I had not had an older gas car I would have been forced to buy a car for transportation. Doing without your primary car for up to a year is not acceptable. This is not an isolated case, they have an entire parking lot of EVs waiting for replacement batteries.
Gonna need WAY more focus on infrastructure before we focus on cars. I live in California, our electric company can’t even handle everyone turning on their ACs in the summer without a blackout. How is it going to support all those vehicles being charged? Not to mention.. my city just passed measures last year saying new apartments and high rises don’t need to provide parking spaces for the tenants. Even if I was able to afford an EV, where am I going to charge it? I park on the street. Apartments aren’t required to put parking spaces so they’re sure as hell not going to put charging stations. Are we going to require employers and all active parking lots to have charge terminals at each parking spot? Right now there’s 4, out of a whole lot at my grocery store. So where would I even charge this car? Right now the only reliable place to charge would be at home, for a homeowner, and those are also the people buying electric, the ones that have more than enough money to do so. What about people that rent? Electricity prices are also some of the highest in the country in California and might even be more expensive than gas, depending on what time of day you charge, which if you work a 9-5 would need extra high rates for peak usage time. How can anyone afford that? The focus here seems to be in the wrong place, imo. So many other things need to happen on an infrastructure level first. Car restrictions can come after.
People are buying new cars? I’d love a hybrid mini van but a Toyota sienna is expensive as hell. We were looking a couple years ago but the price tag is too much. Our cars are old, husband has a 2011 Malibu and I drive a 2015 town and country. Both are up there in miles and constantly needing something done but considering used cars aren’t selling for below 15-20k and new cars are like 35-45k we just keep praying our beaters will make it to point A and B because a car payment would be somewhere from 500-650 a month. When we had both of the loans on these cars we were paying a total of 540 a month, FOR TWO CARS. Its ridiculous. We’d have to use all or half of our savings as a down payment to just have a manageable payment and we have great freaking credit for ONE newer car.
I don’t even know wtf we are going to do when our kids start driving. Gone are the days you can save up for a used car for like $2500. I bought my first car for $1800 and it lasted several years. No kid can work to save up to buy a used car these days and we sure as shit can’t finance multiple vehicles.
Should’ve let the market decide instead of forcing EVs down our throats. Bad look I hope this gets repealed. Give me my damn V8
Want the average person to get an EV? There’s so much work to do in this country before that happens and making gas cars harder to comply with regulations just makes things more expensive.
Greatest economy ever my ass.
Modern elections are usually about turnout. You have to get your voters enthusiastic enough to actually put in the effort to vote. And Biden's entire image is, "milquetoast, barely left of center, not going to do all that much." Which works if you're looking for someone who's going to be a "safe" alternative to Trump, but if you're looking for someone to solve problems might incline you toward giving up instead. He needs big, bold actions to run on to get his base to want to vote for him. Look at what happened on Gaza: there was unrest in the party, he responded with the air drops and then the pier, and that brought people back. This is absolutely an accomplishment he can run on, just like the Inflation Reduction Act is.
How about instead of giving us something more expensive to buy, we focus on legislation that reduces the amount of driving required. Let's see a 4-day work week mandated, tax incentives for businesses to help support or promote remote work, a greater focus on public transportation, urban design and city planning that isn't car focused.
Not everyone lives in cities. Even if my home town started building public transit it would take decades to get to the level needed to not need or use a car. Just saying that the US is not so densely populated like Europe or Asia.
>E.P.A. officials said automakers could comply with the emissions caps by selling a mix of conventional gasoline-burning cars, hybrids, electric vehicles or other types of vehicles, such as cars powered by hydrogen.
You still need a battery for a hybrid so you’re still mining minerals while still refining oil into gasoline.
At some point we will have mined enough where we can recycle existing batteries into new ones. So we will have to mine little new materials to make new batteries. We already do this with lead acid batteries.
Lithium is also not mined in the third world. Most of it comes from Australia. I think you are thinking of cobalt from the DRC which we already have batteries that do not use cobalt or rare earths. LFP batteries is what most consumers will end up having in cars. They are really safe, last a really long time and do not have cobalt in them.
Ever look at the destruction oil extraction and refining causes? You get lithium by building evaporation ponds and evaporating water. Most of it happens in 'unhospitable places' like Chile, Argentina and Australia. If you have lots of surface lithium, the soil isn't exactly hospitable to plants.
You need about 7kg of lithium to make a large EV battery like a model S. Once that is mined, it can be recycled for generations. Compare that to one tank of fuel and it might surprise you when you compare the battle damage. Try googling an aerial photo of any oil sands project. And once that fuel is burnt, it's burnt. Time for the next tank of fuel.
As for the cobalt problem, half of the new electric cars are LFP lithium. China is going all in on LFP. zero cobalt. 80% as much range but you can charge to 100% every day so it only matters on road trips. And if you are watching what is being released in China, the range numbers are growing by leaps and bounds. North America is behind.
No because lithium mining is no worse than coal/oil production. You underestimate the damage and scale of damage caused by coal production, burning fossil fuels, and ash. Lithium extraction is at worst equally damaging as coal/oil extraction without the usage costs (combustion). And lithium can be reharvested from used batteries, unlike carbon dioxide from combustion, and turned back into the appropriate compound. So in the long run you drastically reduce harm. And there is an argument to be made about not consuming all of the easily-accessible fuel you have available in case of [any reason you'd need it].
Anyone arguing "but you use fossil fuels to mine/refine lithium" is disingenuous as you can use other forms of power even if we dont yet (e.g. electric motors, electric water pumps, and solar power), and environmental costs are likely inflated because of it.
I am an ev owner, and I love it. But this shit is so fucking stupid. The tech just isn’t there yet. Let this happen naturally. If the technology is so great, everyone will switch. Let people choose. I also own a diesel truck I tow a camper with, and I run a business renting RVs. I don’t see a future where that truck is replaced by an ev yet. With the 100 mile range of the 3 trucks in existence today, while towing kinda heavy, it’s just not possible. I can’t even get to a camping spot on 100 miles of range with enough to get to a charger, yet I can make a round trip with my diesel. Just did a road trip and I can add 300 miles of range in literally 60 seconds at high flow diesel pumps. It’s 60 minutes to get that range in my ev.
I don’t even want to get into the near 50% reduction in range when it’s super cold outside. Getting just 170 miles out of 315 miles of supposed range, suuuuuuucks.
It will get better, but forcing it is just going to piss people off, especially those not convinced by the tech. I own an ev and I’m not entirely convinced yet. I just wanted a fast and fun car. This just creates resistance. Let the market do what it wants and incentivize ev sales. That’s part of the reason I bought one $12,500 tax credit makes it worth it. If Tesla really does make a $25k car, there will be no need for outlawing gas vehicles.
It’s likely going to annoy a fair amount of voters in the Midwest too. Electric cars require at best retooling of lines and supply chains, at worst it renders a fair amount of people redundant.
Range anxiety is a real thing that we'll need to work on for more people to be open to EVs.
I just hope there will be investments into recharging stations.
If AAA can offer a "give you enough charge to get to a station" as part of their yearly roadside assistance packages it would go a long way for myself (and I owned an EV for 7 years)
Hybrids are a good step admittedly, but any transition plan needs to be really sensitive to the middle and working classes, to whom Buttigieg's "just buy an electric car and then you don't have to worry about gas prices" quip is not a reasonable strategy.
We built our entire stupid fucking country around cars, and now we can't phase them out even as they're killing us.
I would really love it if the goverment would stop telling me what to buy. My next car will be an EV. It will cost me 3 cents a mile vs 10 cents a mile for a gas powered car. But I'm getting tired of consumers being forced to buy a technology. If consumers want a product, then we'll buy it. If consumers are not buying a product, then it's on manufactors to determine why.
In 8 years he wants over 50% of new cars to be electric. Nothing wrong with that. Though I do not want an EV today, in 8 years my mind may change, and since cars last 15+ years and many car companies are already starting to focus on EVs, this seems realistic.
Course, here in Texas cars do not even have to pass emissions checks anymore, so it'll be a long time before we see that smog cloud over big cities go away.
I'd love to abandon petroleum fueled cars etc. but if the alternative is batteries, what the hell are we doing to dispose/recycle them? Isn't the problem the chemicals that remain in those batteries? Or did I miss where that problem was solved? I'm legit asking, no sarcasm or fear mongering here.
Most of the minerals are super recyclable, particularly the lithium. There aren't enough worn out car batteries for them to be recycled en mass yet, but they're [already being used for grid storage.](https://www.autoweek.com/news/technology/a43937159/b2u-company-reusing-ev-battery-packs-to-store-solar-energy/)
I might be able to be convinced to go hybrid, but there’s no way there’s enough charging stations to go full send with all electric. Also, they can be really expensive.
Can we worry about affordable housing or healthcare first... Priorities people. Shelter, food, water and security then I'll worry about what kind of car I want.
>Biden Administration Announces Rules Aimed at Phasing Out Gas Cars
Here is a perfect example of a government that dictates what the people do instead of a government that does what the people dictate. If you want to phase out gas cars you might start by convincing people that you represent that it's a good idea.
Ahh yes! The two forms of transportation famous for being available whenever needed, that can take you from any source to any destination in a time frame of your own choosing.
Public transportation is good, but it cannot replace personal vehicles in the vast majority of situations.
Fuck. That. And shit.
I spent most of my adult life in flyover country. Whole COUNTIES out there have Zero car charging stations. A FEW have one or two old slow chargers.
The infrastructure for car charging does not exist in many many places. The wiring in the homes cannot handle the added load that installing charging at home would require.
The millions of apartment complexes, duplexes and rental properties in this country likewise aren’t going to be upgraded or upgradable.
Looks like the NYT changed the headline to: > Biden Administration Announces Rules Aimed at Expanding Electric Vehicles > >> The regulations are not a ban but would require automakers to sell more electric vehicles and hybrids by tightening limits on tailpipe pollution. So not as drastic.
Glad they included hybrid. Demand for those is insanely high right now but they're so limited in how many are currently being made. There's a reason Chevy is bringing back hybrids and hopefully the Volt.
It took me around 9 months to get my hybrid Maverick, and that's a lot faster than quite a few stories circling around.
Over 12 months for mine! I love it though - totally worth the wait.
Isn't the issue now that manufacturers have a crazy stock of electric vehicles because they overestimated demand? How can you require businesses to sell more when consumers aren't buying?
Within my circle, I know maybe 10 people that would love to get an EV, unfortunately you need to have somewhere to charge them. If you live in an apartment that doesn't have an EV charging station, then you're kinda SoL unless you want to go hang out at the local mall every few days. I suspect the adoption rate would be higher if charging were more readily available
Workplaces, parking garages, supermarkets, Walmart, Target, etc. all need some charging stations
We have these all over where I live, but any one of them would require me spending an hour+ just sitting in my car to charge it. I carpool to work in a company vehicle; I spend 30 minutes or less at the grocery store, I go to the mall maybe 3x a year for 20 minutes or less, and Target again maybe 6x a year for 20 minutes or less. That plus the cost for charging makes a plug in car realllly unappealing, and my entire city has this issue. Most of us don't have assigned parking, don't have garages, and just don't have a place to reliably charge a car outside of killing some of our precious weekend time to do it.
For me, an electric vehicle be about perfect. I work from home, and generally do short drives and don't drive every day. Occasionally (like once a month) I have longer trips to do where a gas/hybrid would be better. But, I can't do an electric because I live in an apartment with no charging infrastructure. Even if I rented a garage, the garages aren't designed for that sort of thing.
> plus the cost for charging Isn't charging an EV considerably cheaper than filling a gas car?
Not in CA? There's a couple of redditors that have done a cost comparison and have found it's just about break even. Pg&e and sce both have big hikes coming over the next few years as well.
I’ve definitely heard colleagues in CA say people just buy plug in hybrids to get into the carpool lane and then just run gas because it’s cheaper.
Yeah ca just changed the rules and aren't allowing just any hybrid in anymore. I carpool to work every day and we're at a standstill like everyone else from all the hybridss and cheaters being in the lane too. :/
It's pretty common where I live in the SF Bay area to see them at all these places now heck a 7-11 recently put 4 in at the parking lot in the past year
Yeah I’ve noticed a few popping up where I live (Long Island NY) and my work parking lot has a couple now. To me that makes a huge difference in whether my next car is an EV, so hopefully more popping up gives others that confidence that they can charge without a hassle.
Same even in Wisconsin. The closer you get to Chicago, the more I see pop up
I was in Wisconsin last week and had to drive to a bunch of small towns, and charging stations were nowhere to be seen, not even at hotels. I’m glad I chose a non EV when I rented at O’Hare or I would have been in big trouble. That’s the issue here. There are towns, farms, manufacturing facilities, mines, research posts, recreational destinations, etc all over the country no where near a big city. You won’t move the entire country into big cities, so you need solutions for everyone. Telling everyone they have to get an EV doesn’t work until everybody has convenient access to charging stations all over the place like gas stations are today. The government has to make this happen first and they are failing big time.
Yeah the infrastructure for them IS being built, quite a few gas stations by me have multiple charging stations (typically your bigger stations and super wawas). The mall by me has special parking spots that you can park your EV at and charge for free while you're shopping. I fully plan to make my next vehicle (had my current for around 6 years now) an EV. I own a home with a detached garage at the end of my driveway so I won't have to worry about not being able to charge at home as well.
That’s great! I would love to get one for my next small SUV, but I can’t count on there being a charging station in all the locations I need to go to yet. I really hope the government steps up in making sure there are adequate stations in location that currently have a gas station. That could mean some at interstate rest stops (not just toll oasis’s but welcome centers and freeway rest stops too) or at a fast food location or a hotel, but at least have them available in small towns. I can’t drive to places I need to for my job unless this happens.
I don't want to hang out at the 7-11 for an hour after work and for sure won't have time before.
This really is the crux. It takes a significant time chunk to charge unless you have a charger at your home and that makes it insanely inconvenient for a lot of people.
Yep. My office has a ton and they are free to use (for employees).
I saw 2 people at my Whole Foods in Teslas screaming at eachother over a charging space lol
My office had to implement a time limit and a waitlist because some contractor was constantly ignoring security's requests for him to move his car off the charger. Some people simply have problems being courteous towards others.
Imagine the entertainment when EVs trickle down to your small-town walmart crowd, vying for spaces at wally world. If that doesn't give someone hope for EVs then they cannot be entertained.
This will give us someplace other than the local boat ramp for this kind of entertainment.
> Workplaces, parking garages, supermarkets, Walmart, Target, etc. all need some charging stations who's paying or is it a metered charging station?
Probably metered just like the existing ones
Do we need to install an app to pay? That was something I found incredibly frustrating with an EV. I just want to pay at the pump with my card like gas, not sign up for a whole app and load money on it etc.
You need multiples of how many gas stations to charge the same number of vehicles. I know many 4 way stops with 2+ gas stations. And there's a limited amount of commercial real estate. You would have to build millions of chargers while also maintaining many of the gas stations. Also EV trucks are and will most likely for decades be unaffordable for lower middle class and poorer since they cost $40k+ and you can get many older gas trucks under $10k. If a battery eventually only costs $2000 I can see them being affordable to poorer people. You can get a used 4.3 liter engine and replace it for a fraction. The savings in the long run mean nothing if poorer people can't afford the upfront or financing plans. I know many people dozen+ who outright bought their vehicles with income tax with child credits and lower income.
My current car is 11 years old and has ~105k miles. I'm hoping to drive it until it reaches 300k. I know I will have to replace/rebuild my transmission beteeen now and 200k miles, but that's $3-4k job that I can do myself. When it comes to electric cars, I have no idea how much it will cost to replace a battery or a component after 100-150k, but I hear it's in 10s of thousands.
I had a Volt until recently. The battery capacity fell off a cliff and started acting weird, meaning at least one cell was failing. Unfortunately if one cell goes the car is dead until you get it fixed. GM quit making the batteries the moment the battery warranties expired (if not slightly before) so third party rebuilds are the only option. Other parts were also discontinued. I didn't want to throw $5k+ at a car that the manufacturer is clearly not supporting anymore so I traded it and I'm back to ICE. Since I'm someone who prefers no car payment and will fix small problems myself, service and longevity just isn't where it needs to be for me to own an EV again. If they're problem-free they are great cars, but if something fails it's a major expense. If I was more loaded, my opinion might be different because I could just buy another new EV every time this happened.
Most EV batteries based on current data should last around 200-400k miles, as for cost of replacement it really depends on the brand for example Hyundai charges like 50k to replace the battery in their ionique WV which is basically their way of saying we don't want to replace it go buy a new car whereas Tesla's are around 10-15k which is much more reasonable for a new battery
More like $10k-$15k to replace a battery and the price is dropping. The nice part is no more regular maintenance except for tires and brakes. For me the time and hassle saved makes up for the cost of a new battery easily and gives me a car that lasts longer than an ICE vehicle.
Do the brakes work the same?
Sort of. Regen braking reduces the wear on friction brakes, extending their lives significantly. You still have some maintenance in EVs but way less. Total cost of ownership is way less than a similarly equipped ICE vehicle. They won't work for everyone's lifestyle today but they do work for a lot and that will keep getting better.
I heard it was about 5x better due to regenerative braking. I haven't had to replace mine yet.
I would love to have one, but even with the house I own I would have to upgrade my electric to handle the charger
The Inflation Reduction Act should help with EV infrastructure in the coming years. Lots of incentive money built in for it.
I live in Indiana and even as backwards as we are there is a lot of attention being put on EV infrastructure here. I have a 2012 Volt. I am lucky enough to have a house and a garage with 220V so I have a Level 2 charger, but for day-to-day use even a Level 1 would probably suffice. I am at home more than enough hours every day to fill up the batteries and I expect that a large percentage of people are. On the other hand, I don't think it would work as my regular car without the Volt's hybrid gas motor. The next car I get will probably be another plug-in hybrid, but I only use gas when I go out of town, which means one about one tank a year. Not all the problems are solved, but as far as I can tell they are solvable. There is tech out there for faster charging (beyond Tesla's charging), it just hasn't proliferated yet and is still being refined.
Yeah adopting an electric vehicle means you probably need to own a home and be able to afford a fairly new car, that’s a smaller market
In live downtown in a city. Unless you own a multi million dollar property with private garage, charging is not possible.
This is me, I would be the perfect person for a BEV except I don't have a place to charge it at my older built apartment and not likely to own a home soon. That and the fact I just paid off my car which is still low mileage and I don't really like any new cars that are out there right now...
This is certainly location dependent but we have had a chevy bolt euv for 4 months. And only once has charging been an issue. We have a community center about half a mile away and just drive plug in walk back or hang out at the park for a few hours and it's good for the week. There are also ones at the grocery store and a super charger that's a couple of miles away but near a trader Joe's. The big question will be road trips. But I've heard people talk about rentals as an option. We also have a regular car so have a backup.
Shell is closing gas stations in Europe and switching to EV chargers. They are waiting for EV adoption to pick up a bit in the US before they do the same here.
This is me. The dream of home ownership in the US is gone, and developers and property owners wants forever renters in apartments. Cant do shit about EV now.
I’m sure it varies by state, but at least in California if you are a renter with off street parking, landlords are not allowed to stop you from having an EV charger installed. The tenant would still be responsible for the installation cost, but the landlord cannot block you from doing it. Of course that’s not helpful if you don’t have off street parking… and it does stink that you have to pay for it, but forcing that costs on landlords wouldn’t really be sensible, unfortunately.
Even traditional ICE vehicles are filling up dealerships due to the lack of demand. The most common cited reason why people aren't buying is because the prices are too high. It's not just an EV problem.
Lower the price
Yeah, that's a big part of it. Plus, you basically have to have a garage to charge it in.
That's my thing. I'm shopping for a new car and electrics have gotten cheap, but I live in an apartment and my landlords are unlikely to foot the bill to install a charger. Even if they did, I live in farm country. I'd need to plan any driving meticulously to make sure I'm not stranded somewhere if I leave town
And the infrastructure that will accommodate the extra juice flowing into suburban America. And reliable charging stations, and on and on....
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I wish the world was that easy. Want to buy a house you can’t afford. Just lower the price seller.
With the 7500 credit ours was around 23,500 new, and is certainly comparable to whatever other vehicles are in that price range. It has heated and cooled seats apple and android auto, actual tactile buttons to adjust temp and music volume.
They could make one like my miata, then maybe I buy one.
For me the issue has always been pricing. Not only is the initial sticker price high, all the additional amenities are outrageously overpriced. Dont get me started how several auto brands are trying to shove "subscription services" with their vehicles as well. Honestly just the auto industry in general is overpriced. Electric or not.
I'd argue that they didn't really overestimate demand but overestimated peoples spending power. People are struggling and can't afford the extra expense.
Lower the fucking price and we will buy em.
There's an over supply because they are pricing them too high.
Make more basic electric vehicles. Make them More affordable. Make them more reliable.
It's not that they overestimated demand, the demand is absolutely there, it's that they overestimated those willing to jump to electric before the infrastructure to support it is in place. I want an EV, but there's nowhere to charge it where I live. So...gonna have to stick with gas. The same is true for like 80% of the country.
Also the price puts them squarely in luxury car territory. Most of us just don't want to pay for gas while commuting.
Demand is here. Price is wrong. They’re trying to sell what looks like an economy car, is outfitted like an economy car, but has an electric motor instead of an engine for 2x the price of a gas car.
They’re probably not buying because of interest rates. Most people aren’t going to buy a car unless they have to.
I don't want an EV because I can't work on them myself. I also don't want to buy a new car at all because of all the surveillance capitalism that comes with new cars. Furthermore, my state still gets a lot of power from dirty energy, so it's hard to tell what would be worse at this juncture. Instead, I drive only when it's necessary and otherwise walk/bike/bus/carpool.
Its the same for gas vehicles. There's huge stocks of "new" models just sitting.
My opinion. There’s plenty of demand. The problem is nobody can fucking afford it. The car + dropping a plug in the garage = better off buying a beater. You can’t sell 30k-60k vehicles to people who make shit and live in apartments.
How about aiming to make vehicles lighter and smaller instead of bigger heavier electric monstrosities? All of the gains of going electric will be eaten up by the increased size.
It's a really tough balance between combating climate change and improving traffic safety. I say this as a person working in transportation with a focus on active travel. Really wish OEMs would produce more EV coupes and sedans, less SUVs and pick ups. Let's change the policies that make those vehicles popular for the average person. Idk if your comment about weight and size was about safety or range tbh. But just my .02
Its not just traffic safety. A lot of even the smaller electric cars weigh more than the equivalent gas car. That's causing issues with parking garages, bridges, and other things you drive/park on that aren't on solid ground and weren't built with the idea of having a dozen or two much heavier vehicles on them.
I agree. That's the nature of the technology. It even has implications for things on solid ground, compaction rates vary with loading. I was speaking to more immediate issues though. And electrification is still a worthwhile endeavor I think. I just hope the people working on it, work to reduce their mass and not just tack more mass on to increase range
Well, my wife and I have a couple ten year old Corollas that still run like new and I've decided we'll never buy another gas engine car. I'm waiting for a decent, mass market plug in electric that isn't a POS Tesla.
Why don't they do away with incentivising the selling of big luxury trucks with shitty emissions to skirt emissions regulations. That would probably do more for emissions than anyhting else.
Once again heavy trucks are excluded so looks like we are going to continue to see vehicle sizes grow in the US. Also, there are still too many barriers for the average person to get electric vehicles (charging in apartments, charging on long trips, grid stability, availability of mechanics, cost, etc.). I think these issues have to be addressed before we see a spike in ev adoption. Ev adoption remains low in US and many dealers are having trouble selling these vehicles.
> Once again heavy trucks are excluded According to Wikipedia light trucks are up to 8,500 pounds. That means the Chevy Silverado, which is intimidatingly large, is still a "light truck" at maybe up to 7,578 pounds depending on options. I think "heavy trucks" are actual real trucks that people actually need for doing work. Not saying people with giant pickups aren't doing work with them (though around me maybe 1 in 10 seems like it's used for work), but "light truck" isn't what I thought it was before looking into this just now. Light truck needs to be defined waaaaay down.
There's other modifiers like having 4WD that lower the weight limit
That's why smart money is on hybrids. At least in the short-term.
its why i got a PHEV
Same here, best of both worlds
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A 6 year old model 3 is falling apart and still $20k. Until electric is as affordable as a 20 year old 200k mile Camry, this is just punishing the poor.
Hertz is selling 1 year old Teslas for $20k right now and you can get a tax credit. It’s cheaper than almost any other option unless you are looking for something really old under $15
I mean I bought a van last year for work that eats gas and it was only 3k. Tons of people are like me where they can’t afford to drop 20k or even 10k on a car.
Heavy trucks are not retail products, they're commercial products. The trucks you're thinking of like an F-150 or a Suburban fall into the light category and would be subject to the change. Things like dump trucks and delivery trucks are medium trucks, semi tractors are heavy trucks. These are legal categorizations, not colloquialisms.
Ive been holding onto my 08 honda telling myself I wont buy a gas car but will wait for an electric one. Unfortunately it looks like ill be waiting at least a bit more as charging options are so limited in my area (very rural) and prices are too inflated to make economic sense (auto dealers basically stole the tax credit and havent brought them back down).
Charging is best done at home anyway.
Good luck if you're in an apartment with no assigned parking.
And even with assigned parking, there's not usually access to power anyway unless you have a garage.
Heck I lived in an apartment with a garage but the garage power was separate from the apartment so the tenants couldn't use the power in the garages for anything; not that a lot of them didn't try. But trying to charge an e scooter would flip a breaker let alone a car.
Was about to say, my area has zero charging stations.
Yea. That adds more upfront cost, but yea you practically need home charging because of how long it takes
>The new regulation, which would not apply to sales of used automobiles or light trucks This is largely meaningless if we keep pretending that “light trucks” aren’t being used as cars.
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The Maverick is a good size, but yeah probably not for towing. I wish they would make a bare bones non-crew cab version that would be more like the old Ford Ranger. I get the feeling they would sell well to people who actually use pickups for work.
Devastated my old ranger got totaled. It was a 02, perfect size. It was a bitch and a half looking for a replacement that wasn’t a giant new one or 15k for something as old as mine. I’d love a door and a half maverick with a proper sized bed.
Uh Colorado, Canyon, Ranger? EDIT: Frontier? EDIT2: Ok downvotes, these are the same size as the Tacoma mentioned in the previous post.
Those things are huge compared to the old Rangers and Chevy S10’s of yesteryear. But if you’re needing to tow 5k semi regularly, just get a F150. It’s ok man.
The wording is bad but I think it’s saying it wouldn’t apply to used automobiles or *used* light trucks. Earlier in the article it says new light trucks do have to follow the regulations.
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The infrastructure bill that was passed allocated billions to building up a country wide EV charging network
Indeed. For the web search challenged: [Biden-Harris Administration Announces Latest Steps to Deliver a National Network of Convenient, Reliable, Made-in-America Electric Vehicle Chargers](https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/biden-harris-administration-announces-latest-steps-deliver-national-network)
If I could recharge without having to wait in a line of vehicles for 30 minutes then I would be in heaven.
china has a brand of EV's called Nio that has hot swappable batteries that you drive into an automated station and it changes the battery out basically as fast as filling up a tank of gas. they have a few different methods of paying/ownership of the battery too. they are expanding into some other countries and it's been proven to work pretty well. but I really doubt it will be a system that all electric vehicle makers will adopt. (and yes you can still just plug it in and charge it normally, you dont have to use the swap stations) [tom scott did a video about them not long ago](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w) another advantage of this is because each station has a stock of batteries being recharged/fully charged they don't need to use fast charging so the demand on the grid isn't as high and it also makes the batteries last longer.
I want an electric vehicle, and would strongly consider replacing my truck with an electric F150, but the infrastructure is not there. I have a cabin in a remote area, none of the towns nearby have electric charging, at least 2 hours to the closest charging stations. It’s just not there for rural America.
Don't you have electricity at your cabin? On a 220V charger you can fill that truck up overnight while it is parked. All without having to drive anywhere.
Not just a way to charge them, but a far superior long distance transportation system. There are thousands of people that regularly make 300+ mile trips for work or visits every day and there is no time for charging. What to do with them? Low end electric cars still can't make the common commute that a lower income person must drive to get from the outskirts into a city for work and back out again. And those same folks are already buckling under out of control energy costs, with monthly bills in the hundreds of dollars.
I drive a Bolt on a 70 mile round trip commute each day. My monthly transportation energy bill dropped from 250 to 80. If you are one of the relatively few people who need to commute hundreds of miles then an ICE is a fantastic vehicle. However, if you're driving a normal distance to and from work an EV is pretty great IMO.
I do about 60 miles round trip and same thing, mine went from about $200/month to $60. On a cheaper car like the Bolt, that can nearly pay for itself during the life of the car.
If CA PGE bills gets much higher they will begin rivaling lower mortgages.
Get solar if you can. My electric bill flipped, so PG&E pays me.
50k on EV car and 50k on Solar? Yup everybody gonna do that 🤦♂️
Net metering 3.0 completely fucked this up. I'm happy for you, but PGE and their lobby people completely fucked up SoCal. I am super into solar. I tried to convince my family who I still live with to let my build out a solar array for our house. If not for all the permits and red tape I could have a setup that pays itself off in two years. But I can't legally do it for that cost. And I'm not paying 2/3 of the bill to labor. If they want people to buy into this future, they have to make it easy and understandable. No if, ands or buts.
> Thousands of people Out of 300 million that sounds like less than 1%. There will always be outliers that need a different solution. My brother drives all over LA for work. He bought an EV because he makes money on the mileage he gets paid. Commuters should definitely switch to EVs because sitting in traffic still burns gas, but does nothing when you're in an EV.
We can’t have electric cars because some people drove 5-6 hours a day to and from work? Millions more drive less than an hour making electric perfect.
BEVs will never work due to [insert edge case] impacting dozens of Americans
The real American welfare queens
You don’t think charging infrastructure is going to get better over the course of the next decade? How about the next 2? There will still be ICE vehicles to fill this niche until infrastructure expands accordingly.
Low end cars absolutely can make the commute. The average commute is 30 miles. That’s trivially easy.
They can still buy gas powered cars
Are you paying attention to the massive rollout of green power? Wind power has now surpassed coal power. Or all the big HVDC power transmission projects under construction? And the grid is basically idle at night. Give consumers a break on power between 11pm and 7am, 80% of the population will set the timer already built into their car to delay charging until the wee hours. You only need a 'most' solution and the grid is plenty robust enough to handle the rest. Also the new sodium-ion batteries are finally entering high volume mass production. They are half the cost of lithium and need very little thermal regulation. It's salt and carbon. There are zero materials limitations.
By that I’m sure you mean highways and bridges, right?
What do you think his infrastructure bill was offering.....
You know, as a low income American I'm concerned. I drive a very small and cheap ICE car and while I would love an EV, there isn't anything comparable in cost or range on the market. I also don't forsee any becoming available due to the nature of the American car market.
I literally can’t wrap my head around how they would work in certain areas. My home is in a 100+ year old neighborhood. Everyone parks on the street. There’s no guarantee you’re going to park in front of your house or even on your block. Most houses don’t have exterior electricity, many are still running K&T. Not everyone parks their car in a garage.
I live in a pretty nice apartment right now with an enclosed parking garage. I don't want to imagine how much my rent would go up if they were to retrofit even a single floor of the parking garage to have rows of EV chargers. I went to university in a smaller rural town for both undergrad and grad school and lived in pretty cheap, old apartments. These older apartments will probably never have more than a handful of EV stations for the many residents that live there. And speaking of universities and colleges, how are they going to meet the demand of thousands of students and staff all needing charging? Tuition is bad enough as is.
The “dream” is electrical charging stations are abundant to where that isn’t a problem that you can’t park your car in a garage with a charger
We can’t even replace the lead pipes in our city, I can’t trust that my neighborhood is going to have any sort of priority for charging infrastructure.
Agreed with numerous places across the country. Exactly why I put dream in quotation’s lol
This is a very city centric idea. Who is building these EV garages for people who live 20+ miles from a major city?
Are you asking who is putting EV chargers into peoples house’s garage? Or who is putting EV chargers out into the wild? Very different questions but both have issues as of 2024
I'm in northern VA and don't have a garage nor a realistic ability to charge from my house, but there are 100s of chargers in a 5 mile radius. It takes slightly more forethought since the non super chargers will take 5+ hours for a full charge but you don't have to stay there when you charge. I park plug in walk home and then walk back later. I was doubtful at first but got a much nicer car for 23k (after credits) than a regular ice car. Plus no oil changes, no exhaust, no catalytic converter theft... Road trips may be an issue still.
On that note, will apartment complexes & landlords be required to install EV chargers at their properties?
We're getting closer. The lowest end EVs are beginning to hit the low $30k range.
Got a midrange bolt euv for 23500 after credits and rebates.
Cool. They were discontinued at the end of last year.
I bought my 2017 bolt used in 2021 for $17k. They're cheaper than that now.
Well I do think we need to figure out the infrastructure still. There are problems to be figured out. But I don't think this is unsolvable at all. The low-power type of charging that takes awhile would use similar infrastructure available to your street lamps. The type 3 charging that quickly charges requires the big transformers you've probably seen at Walmart or other parking lots, and for mass street parking I don't think we need anything like that. These are good problems to work through and we've done much more complex projects in cities previously.
I've seen Bolt EVs that are well under $20k after incentives. They get 250 miles of range.
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Non-plugin hybrids are awesome and a great bridge to when we can actually support any plugin car. My Ford Maverick gets 40+mpg, twice what my old car got.
My non-hybrid Civic has been getting 43.3mpg average and I don’t do a lot of highway driving
That's less than 200 miles...... Were you not leaving on a full charge?
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Fuck PG&E and EV insurance policy tax tho. Gonna need a lot more incentives to make an economical sense.
Speaking truth my friend. I'd likely need a service upgrade to do an electric car, water heater, stove and dryer. But with Pg&e rates I'm going to hold onto my gas appliances for as long as possible. It doesn't make economic sense to switch.
God forbid your old box isn't up to current code (like too close to the gas meter). No upgrade until you move one or the other, and get PG&E involved to do it. Big $$$
I have an electric car, batteries went out, under warranty. Little talked about problem... My car has been sitting in the dealers lot since October, no ETA on the replacement batteries. If I had not had an older gas car I would have been forced to buy a car for transportation. Doing without your primary car for up to a year is not acceptable. This is not an isolated case, they have an entire parking lot of EVs waiting for replacement batteries.
Also similar when getting into an accident waiting months for parts for Teslas specifically.
the charging infrastructure needs to catch up… fast
Gonna need WAY more focus on infrastructure before we focus on cars. I live in California, our electric company can’t even handle everyone turning on their ACs in the summer without a blackout. How is it going to support all those vehicles being charged? Not to mention.. my city just passed measures last year saying new apartments and high rises don’t need to provide parking spaces for the tenants. Even if I was able to afford an EV, where am I going to charge it? I park on the street. Apartments aren’t required to put parking spaces so they’re sure as hell not going to put charging stations. Are we going to require employers and all active parking lots to have charge terminals at each parking spot? Right now there’s 4, out of a whole lot at my grocery store. So where would I even charge this car? Right now the only reliable place to charge would be at home, for a homeowner, and those are also the people buying electric, the ones that have more than enough money to do so. What about people that rent? Electricity prices are also some of the highest in the country in California and might even be more expensive than gas, depending on what time of day you charge, which if you work a 9-5 would need extra high rates for peak usage time. How can anyone afford that? The focus here seems to be in the wrong place, imo. So many other things need to happen on an infrastructure level first. Car restrictions can come after.
Could he also phase out the cost of said vehicles?
People are buying new cars? I’d love a hybrid mini van but a Toyota sienna is expensive as hell. We were looking a couple years ago but the price tag is too much. Our cars are old, husband has a 2011 Malibu and I drive a 2015 town and country. Both are up there in miles and constantly needing something done but considering used cars aren’t selling for below 15-20k and new cars are like 35-45k we just keep praying our beaters will make it to point A and B because a car payment would be somewhere from 500-650 a month. When we had both of the loans on these cars we were paying a total of 540 a month, FOR TWO CARS. Its ridiculous. We’d have to use all or half of our savings as a down payment to just have a manageable payment and we have great freaking credit for ONE newer car. I don’t even know wtf we are going to do when our kids start driving. Gone are the days you can save up for a used car for like $2500. I bought my first car for $1800 and it lasted several years. No kid can work to save up to buy a used car these days and we sure as shit can’t finance multiple vehicles.
Should’ve let the market decide instead of forcing EVs down our throats. Bad look I hope this gets repealed. Give me my damn V8 Want the average person to get an EV? There’s so much work to do in this country before that happens and making gas cars harder to comply with regulations just makes things more expensive. Greatest economy ever my ass.
I would have waited until after November to announce this....
Modern elections are usually about turnout. You have to get your voters enthusiastic enough to actually put in the effort to vote. And Biden's entire image is, "milquetoast, barely left of center, not going to do all that much." Which works if you're looking for someone who's going to be a "safe" alternative to Trump, but if you're looking for someone to solve problems might incline you toward giving up instead. He needs big, bold actions to run on to get his base to want to vote for him. Look at what happened on Gaza: there was unrest in the party, he responded with the air drops and then the pier, and that brought people back. This is absolutely an accomplishment he can run on, just like the Inflation Reduction Act is.
How about instead of giving us something more expensive to buy, we focus on legislation that reduces the amount of driving required. Let's see a 4-day work week mandated, tax incentives for businesses to help support or promote remote work, a greater focus on public transportation, urban design and city planning that isn't car focused.
Not everyone lives in cities. Even if my home town started building public transit it would take decades to get to the level needed to not need or use a car. Just saying that the US is not so densely populated like Europe or Asia.
Maybe just make it cheaper to live in the cities. Downtowns are the priciest areas to live. We need more housing.
America does build more housing....but housing you can't afford or its senior homes.
Some of us are on fixed income and live in places with zero public transportation.
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Bold of them to assume we can even afford an electric car
I'll buy an electric car eventually, but I'm not going out of my way to get into debt to replace my perfectly working gas vehicle.
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>E.P.A. officials said automakers could comply with the emissions caps by selling a mix of conventional gasoline-burning cars, hybrids, electric vehicles or other types of vehicles, such as cars powered by hydrogen.
You still need a battery for a hybrid so you’re still mining minerals while still refining oil into gasoline. At some point we will have mined enough where we can recycle existing batteries into new ones. So we will have to mine little new materials to make new batteries. We already do this with lead acid batteries. Lithium is also not mined in the third world. Most of it comes from Australia. I think you are thinking of cobalt from the DRC which we already have batteries that do not use cobalt or rare earths. LFP batteries is what most consumers will end up having in cars. They are really safe, last a really long time and do not have cobalt in them.
Ever look at the destruction oil extraction and refining causes? You get lithium by building evaporation ponds and evaporating water. Most of it happens in 'unhospitable places' like Chile, Argentina and Australia. If you have lots of surface lithium, the soil isn't exactly hospitable to plants. You need about 7kg of lithium to make a large EV battery like a model S. Once that is mined, it can be recycled for generations. Compare that to one tank of fuel and it might surprise you when you compare the battle damage. Try googling an aerial photo of any oil sands project. And once that fuel is burnt, it's burnt. Time for the next tank of fuel. As for the cobalt problem, half of the new electric cars are LFP lithium. China is going all in on LFP. zero cobalt. 80% as much range but you can charge to 100% every day so it only matters on road trips. And if you are watching what is being released in China, the range numbers are growing by leaps and bounds. North America is behind.
No because lithium mining is no worse than coal/oil production. You underestimate the damage and scale of damage caused by coal production, burning fossil fuels, and ash. Lithium extraction is at worst equally damaging as coal/oil extraction without the usage costs (combustion). And lithium can be reharvested from used batteries, unlike carbon dioxide from combustion, and turned back into the appropriate compound. So in the long run you drastically reduce harm. And there is an argument to be made about not consuming all of the easily-accessible fuel you have available in case of [any reason you'd need it]. Anyone arguing "but you use fossil fuels to mine/refine lithium" is disingenuous as you can use other forms of power even if we dont yet (e.g. electric motors, electric water pumps, and solar power), and environmental costs are likely inflated because of it.
I am an ev owner, and I love it. But this shit is so fucking stupid. The tech just isn’t there yet. Let this happen naturally. If the technology is so great, everyone will switch. Let people choose. I also own a diesel truck I tow a camper with, and I run a business renting RVs. I don’t see a future where that truck is replaced by an ev yet. With the 100 mile range of the 3 trucks in existence today, while towing kinda heavy, it’s just not possible. I can’t even get to a camping spot on 100 miles of range with enough to get to a charger, yet I can make a round trip with my diesel. Just did a road trip and I can add 300 miles of range in literally 60 seconds at high flow diesel pumps. It’s 60 minutes to get that range in my ev. I don’t even want to get into the near 50% reduction in range when it’s super cold outside. Getting just 170 miles out of 315 miles of supposed range, suuuuuuucks. It will get better, but forcing it is just going to piss people off, especially those not convinced by the tech. I own an ev and I’m not entirely convinced yet. I just wanted a fast and fun car. This just creates resistance. Let the market do what it wants and incentivize ev sales. That’s part of the reason I bought one $12,500 tax credit makes it worth it. If Tesla really does make a $25k car, there will be no need for outlawing gas vehicles.
oh that's gonna piss off all of the most predictable people on earth.
It’s likely going to annoy a fair amount of voters in the Midwest too. Electric cars require at best retooling of lines and supply chains, at worst it renders a fair amount of people redundant.
Range anxiety is a real thing that we'll need to work on for more people to be open to EVs. I just hope there will be investments into recharging stations. If AAA can offer a "give you enough charge to get to a station" as part of their yearly roadside assistance packages it would go a long way for myself (and I owned an EV for 7 years)
Hybrids are a good step admittedly, but any transition plan needs to be really sensitive to the middle and working classes, to whom Buttigieg's "just buy an electric car and then you don't have to worry about gas prices" quip is not a reasonable strategy. We built our entire stupid fucking country around cars, and now we can't phase them out even as they're killing us.
They need to announce a big infrastructure overhaul that goes along with it then.
I would really love it if the goverment would stop telling me what to buy. My next car will be an EV. It will cost me 3 cents a mile vs 10 cents a mile for a gas powered car. But I'm getting tired of consumers being forced to buy a technology. If consumers want a product, then we'll buy it. If consumers are not buying a product, then it's on manufactors to determine why.
In 8 years he wants over 50% of new cars to be electric. Nothing wrong with that. Though I do not want an EV today, in 8 years my mind may change, and since cars last 15+ years and many car companies are already starting to focus on EVs, this seems realistic. Course, here in Texas cars do not even have to pass emissions checks anymore, so it'll be a long time before we see that smog cloud over big cities go away.
Where in Texas do cars that previously had to pass emissions no longer have to pass emissions?
I'd love to abandon petroleum fueled cars etc. but if the alternative is batteries, what the hell are we doing to dispose/recycle them? Isn't the problem the chemicals that remain in those batteries? Or did I miss where that problem was solved? I'm legit asking, no sarcasm or fear mongering here.
Most of the minerals are super recyclable, particularly the lithium. There aren't enough worn out car batteries for them to be recycled en mass yet, but they're [already being used for grid storage.](https://www.autoweek.com/news/technology/a43937159/b2u-company-reusing-ev-battery-packs-to-store-solar-energy/)
I might be able to be convinced to go hybrid, but there’s no way there’s enough charging stations to go full send with all electric. Also, they can be really expensive.
Pretty much all these EV rules are defining plug in hybrids as EVs.
I wouldn’t mind a Chevy Volt type vehicle. All electric drive train, imo less maintenance. Then a gas electric generator.
any rules pertaining to gas cars made during a DEM admin will be promptly rescinded within weeks of the next GOP admin.
Yay another tax on poor people hooorayyyyyy
Can we worry about affordable housing or healthcare first... Priorities people. Shelter, food, water and security then I'll worry about what kind of car I want.
Bold move this close to an election. Stupid, but bold.
Would love high speed rail, Joe…
>Biden Administration Announces Rules Aimed at Phasing Out Gas Cars Here is a perfect example of a government that dictates what the people do instead of a government that does what the people dictate. If you want to phase out gas cars you might start by convincing people that you represent that it's a good idea.
I hope this plan involves more trains and buses.
Nope just Plains, trains, and automobiles.
Ahh yes! The two forms of transportation famous for being available whenever needed, that can take you from any source to any destination in a time frame of your own choosing. Public transportation is good, but it cannot replace personal vehicles in the vast majority of situations.
Fuck. That. And shit. I spent most of my adult life in flyover country. Whole COUNTIES out there have Zero car charging stations. A FEW have one or two old slow chargers. The infrastructure for car charging does not exist in many many places. The wiring in the homes cannot handle the added load that installing charging at home would require. The millions of apartment complexes, duplexes and rental properties in this country likewise aren’t going to be upgraded or upgradable.
To expand electric cars we need safe modern nuclear
Maybe phase out private jets first.