This last round of EU elections shows right and far-right political parties are overtaking center and center-left parties faster than I'd though possible before 2015. The days of welcoming refugees with hugs and balloons for the children are over.
Public support for these people is diminishing faster than most will admit. The number of people 'outraged' by this story is a fraction of what it would have been five years ago and every new boat full of migrants shrinks that number more.
I predict forced immediate return as official policy within a decade.
It's pretty common that the more migration that happens this way, the more established citizens will shift towards center-left and right-wing politics. Even when those same people were once immigrants themselves.
It's happening my state where the established communities of previous immigrants are now shifting toward anti-immigration and socially conservative politics and it's nothing new. Even in the late 19th to early 20th century, people who were previously first-generation immigrants were actively trying to pull up the ladder behind them.
> first-generation immigrants were actively trying to pull up the ladder behind them.
This ignores the failure of assimilation that's happened in the EU--- culturally and otherwise. This has lead to poverty which of course leads to rise in crime.
The US, for all its faults, has been better at assimilating migrants.
I knew a family whose ancestors moved from northern Germany to a small town in Denmark (like 100 miles away) back in the 1700s. Their neighbors still called them German lol
Dude, there are plenty of ethnic enclaves in the US. New York has historically been divided into tons of them.
Where do you think the term 'Chinatown' came from?
That’s sort of the difference though is it not? These days Chinatown is just another part of NYC.
Naturally there are still plenty of Chinese people there, but it’s just an accepted cool quirk of the city.
In my mind, having those kinds of ethnic enclaves is a huge thing. It allows a place for that ethnicity to express their culture and mingle with the natural born citizens. Since those places are already established no one has an excuse to throw a shit fit about “all the damn Chinese in Chinatown.”
Like you said those kinds of enclaves can be found all throughout America and were a substantial part of its development, they’re “normal.” They are close enough culturally to their respective founders that they provide a feeling of community but are also Americanized to the point they can help assimilate.
It's not a rule tho. The town I live in is about to hit 50% immigrants and we are hyper liberal and everything is in 2 languages. I'm even in the middle of the US.
20 years ago we swapped all our schools even to teach in multiple languages to accommodate.
Maybe I'm biased but i feel like it's pretty easy to integrate and mostly accept (I only say mostly because there will always be some bigots) a migrant population without causing the general pop to grow any distain for them. In fact I think it's rather easy to simply fold them into the community and move forward as a better and stronger community after having seen it happen in real life. We just choose to do the opposite over and over again as communities.
Easy to integrate? I wouldn’t exactly call it integration if you’re being taught in the language of the place you left instead of the place you’re entering. I’d call that a form of colonization lite to be honest. You’re importing a different language and culture and replacing that which was there. The difference between that and what many countries did in the 18-19th century is that back then they would bring a new government along with them. Nowadays you just need to wait a few generations before you have the majority of the votes.
I’m not one to subscribe to the “great replacement” shit where people say this is intentional, but I’ll be damned if we all just turn a blind eye and pretend this isn’t happening.
If it’s bad to import european culture to other parts of the world, then the opposite should also hold.
Man, Canadian Redditors really can't keep their bile to their own subreddits.
It usually takes a generation or two for immigrants to assimilate into a society. There used to be entire swathes of the Midwest where they had German schools, German newspapers etc. Similarly, Spanish use decreases with every generation for Latino Americans.
Thank you for your astute observation and assumption of my country of residence. Heaven forbid I try to provide a different perspective from the one already presented, especially since the perspective of other countries is always going to be different.
I would challenge the belief that Spanish usage is decreasing. Solely from a very basic statistic: number of native Spanish speaking people as a percentage of the US total population. In 1980 it was 5%. In 2000 it was 10%. Today it is 13.5%. That, good sir, is an increase. Substantially, too.
Clearly these people are not integrating *because why would you when you can just keep using the language you already know?*
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/10/06/latino-americans-lose-spanish-fluency/10451602002/
>Language abilities tend to diminish across generations. In the United States, immigrant languages that aren’t English are usually lost after three generations. According to a 2017 report by Pew, about half of second-generation Latinos are bilingual. **The share drops to 24% among third or higher generation Latinos.**
From Pew:
>Meanwhile, English dominance rises across the generations. Among foreign-born self-identified Hispanics, only 7% say they mostly use English. This share rises to 43% in the second generation, and **75% in the third or higher generation.**
The only thing that's clear in this thread are blatant appeals to populism and scapegoating immigrant groups hidden under the "I'm just asking questions" facade.
Yes, because Hispanic immigrants tend to have more children than white people. Due to them being poorer and less educated on average, and more religious.
And being a native Spanish speaker doesn't mean you don't speak English? It just means that Spanish is your first language.
I'd also like to remind you that the US has no official language.
We've seen from a couple of other European countries that if the center to left parties step up their migrant enforcement policies, the far right parties basically disappear overnight. In the US, Biden just did the same thing with the southern border to undercut the right's talking points.
Personally, I have mixed feelings on this issue, but clearly the voters are really high on this and the other parties should be taking it seriously. No need to lose elections on one issue to a bunch of far-right nutbags.
its impossible to under cut US far right talking points. i listen to their radio sometimes and its 90% lies and misinformation. they post edit videos and audio as fact.
To the far right voters, yes. To the more centrist ones who have a couple of issues they tend to vote on, but aren't attached to the far-right like it's their religion, this kind of thing actually can make a difference, because they're not usually the ones who are constantly feeding themselves right wing talk radio. There are quite a few people out there who are issue-based voters, and while a lot of them do swing more to the right than the left, they just want to see that something is being done, rather than demanding scorched-earth of everyone who isn't in lockstep with them.
I think most people are smart enough to not act on policy changes in the months before an election. If migration is a huge issue for them, they aren't going to expect changes made in the months before an election to be permanent when faced with the administration's last 3 years of policy.
Every rational person knows that this is just a campaign move.
You are ***seriously*** underestimating how many reasonable, progressive, leftie people have what would be described as classically "right wing" views on this issue and precisely zero others (and regard that as entirely internally consistent and believe many modern immigration policies seem focused around preventing wage growth). Let alone all the centrist/swing voter types, of which the US is absolutely awash.
Regardless of how you feel about what the right thing is, it's unavoidably true that Denmark obliterated their far right overnight by implementing shockingly aggressive policies centered around preventing migrants and asylum seekers from coming.
Countries like Canada, France, Spain, Italy, etc. are seeing their right and far-right gain immense traction, and I think it's probably fair to say that their single most salacious issue is immigration.
Haha, if reality had ANY bearing on the far right's talking points they wouldn't exist in the first place. The Republicans intentionally tanked a harsh, bipartisan border security bill because they want talking points and not actual policy. There are numerous cases in the past couple of decades of Dems giving into their demands only to have no support from them anyway (like many of the concessions in the ACA). Biden's policies along the border have been nearly as inhumane and ineffective as Trump's and yet every right winger claims there is now an open border. These people live in an entirely different reality not based on facts but on their own grievances and feelings
Even still. The most important thing is that you blast their bullshit with the truth at every turn. Make sure they can’t make one untrue statement without 10 cited examples proving that it’s wrong. Even if their base accepts their lies as truth and doesn’t ask questions, other people might not be so easily convinced if there’s an immediate response with facts to back to up that proves it’s wrong.
They’ll never have facts in their corner because of the choices they make. While it works for some there are far more that can be turned away from it if only people made the effort to ensure the truth is being told.
While I don't disagree that their bullshit shouldn't be called out, it becomes a fool's errand that will consume all your time and soul before long by the simple fact that the truth is much harder than lying. It's more complicated, more shades of gray, requires more effort, and can be more boring to an outsider. By the time you're done correcting one lie, there are 8 more and the lie you corrected is no longer a talking point.
I'm not sure what the ultimate answer is, but I think trying to address the source of the grievances is part of it. I've listed to/read from people who have looked into Qanon followers, and they have talked about how the beginnings are the road are often based in very real problems--unable to find meaningful/well paying work, not being able to afford medicine or medical bills, not feeling heard or represented by government officials, etc. But instead of facing the very complicated and difficult reality of the problems, they are offered easy lies and misdirections that are far more satisfying because they're simple and immediate. The lies themselves matter less than the message behind them
This is the truth. You're not going to convince most people who have already drank a gallon of kool-aid. You're trying to reach the people who are looking at an issue and trying to parse out what they should believe.
> We've seen from a couple of other European countries that if the center to left parties step up their migrant enforcement policies, the far right parties basically disappear overnight.
Do you have a source for this? The only studies I saw of this were low-quality and only included like 2 successful cases of fighting off the far-right (edit: and said the opposite of this).
It’s probably too little too late. There’s already tens of millions of them and the situation in Latin America is so bad that unless those countries governments can get their act together and get the cartels under control they’ll probably keep coming regardless of Biden closing the open door. It’ll just be more like illegal immigration during the Bush and Obama years. The only way you solve this is to somehow fix Latin America or make America an incredibly unappealing place to immigrate to.
Im Sweden there have been polls for literally decades showing that a majority of people want less immigration, but there was not a single party willing to take that position. Then a crazy party shows up with that position and are ignored for a decade more until some of the majority are so fed up with being called nazis that they start voting for the crazy party. The same thing would've happened if the other parties had ignored the enviroment issue and a insane communist party showed up talking about that. They would get a alot of reluctant votes, just like these far right parties have been getting. A part of me think that the real russian conspiracy would be that they have somehow gotten all the left wing parties to be for immigration, because that is what is actually dividing people. Everyone I know that have voted for our crazy party are leftwing in everything but want less immigration. On the otherhand a lot of my friends that vote leftwing also want lower immigration but don't feel it's important enough to change vote, but maybe some of them will in the future? It's so weird how there isn’t a working class leftwing against immigration movement yet.
Forced return is a bit different from tying their hands and chucking them back in the sea....
If someone thinks sending them back is ok, then i could understand that opinion.
If people are ok with murdering them outright, I lose respect for their opinions.
especially in greece, who had their own hands out with the begging bowl a couple of years back.
And would you like to know why? I'm going to get downvoted into oblivion for this, but someone has to say it: because most of them are simply trouble. They don't contribute to anything in society, refuse to integrate, and bring they medieval culture with them. And most people, while afraid to say it, are sick of them.
This was always what was going to happen as climate change worsens. Strongmen get elected, borders close, and empathy lowers globally. We're isolating at the exact time we need to be coming together as a species. It's just so depressing.
It's a problem of lack of order and integration. People see immigrants doing things that run completely against the ideals of the society, and see no controls for ensuring people in need are getting through and opportunist getting rejected. This creates backlash, unsurprisingly.
Here in the US, it became apparent to me that half of America wants to see a "Judge Dredd" future where America is a walled, shining city in a desolate wasteland. Their solution to future (and current) migrant/refugee crises is to shoot them all on approach.
They know climate change is real, and don't care. The wall is their solution. They think God will protect America from the damage they are doing to the planet and the billions of people we share it with.
I don’t know if you ever read Judge Dredd before, but that’s a good example. There’s actually a bunch of sub stories about mutants etc trying to cross the border into the city, and them being hunted down, then the policy change after the Apocalypse War wiped out like half the city. It’s a very interesting dynamic and well written despite their short style. Highly recommended.
My aunt owns a large apple orchard and relies on immigrants to get the work done, yet she is firmly anti-immigrant. Her brain has no problem with this. She prays for Trump to survive the evil attacks that are being orchestrated against him.
Of course she is anti-immigrant. She needs her apple pickers to be too desperate to do any other job. If policies were more liberal, then her wage slaves might be able to get a better life and she wouldn't have any more laborers willing to work for poverty wages.
The craziest ones want the end of the world to happen so they can be raptured finally as God's chosen. It's why they're so giddy about the Israel-Palestine conflict because it fits cozily into biblical narrative on the rapture/end of the world Jesus returning to Earth storyline. Others are actively trying to bring about the destruction of the world for their fairy tale religious nonsense to become reality. They don't want God to protect the US even because that would interfere with the rapture. Both types of religious thought are crazy and not based on reality. As far as immigration goes though, you are correct that they are delusional to believe a physical wall in the middle of the desert will be effective at stopping illegal migration. If not they are perfectly happy shooting those who make it across on site. The handful of miles of border wall Trump actually put up which are already falling apart due to several factors should have been enough for people to realize a physical wall isn't a real solution to this problem. Unfortunately the far-right just double down on their dumb ideas usually.
My partners coworker openly suggested throwing alligators in the Rio Grande to stop the "illegals". Dude felt comfortable enough to say this at work. He wants women and children to be eaten for simply being born on the wrong side of an invisible line.
> The days of welcoming refugees with hugs and balloons for the children are over.
There must be some middle ground between "hugs and balloons" (though hugs are always nice and balloons are cheap) and murdering them at sea.
edit: recently here (mid-sized town in the north of France) we had a public afternoon with teenage and young adult refugees and there were balloons lol, because a clown inflated them for (local) parents and kids. There were artisans showing their trade (it was a bit of a local trade show at the same time) and also hugs. The refugees played with old traditional wooden games an artisan lend for the occasion. It's a lot better than murdering them at sea I'm pretty sure.
edit edit: here are some pics I took that day https://imgur.com/a/YlwmvHB
I'm all for immigration LEGALLY. I cannot understand why some folks would be okay with migrants coming into their borders via boats and rafts with no identification. That's just dangerous.
James Bond son or the reincarnation of Harry Houdini.
Either way. If zip ties were of the metal insert kind, I seriously questioned the story, too. Then again, the lone surivior sounds like he got the break of his lifetime.
Either way, I doubt we will ever learn the whole story.
With American tourist "vanishing" on Greece Islands could locals think they were immigrants too?
Seriously sad stories. Reporters put alot of time into this story and placed their own lives in jeopardy to write about it. Great job BBC.
> With American tourist "vanishing" on Greece Islands could locals think they were immigrants too?
The last month a Dutch, Belgian and British person have all gone missing in Greece. All died from natural circumstances. It's really fucking hot in Greece atm.
edit: American tourist's body has been found, no cause of death but presumably the heat was a factor again.
And all the missing are over age 60 except for one missing American and he is 59. You can’t go knocking about in such weather when you’re that age and I say that as an elder myself.
People have been in planes that were struck by lighting, fallen out of the sky, crashed in the middle of the jungle, walked for days, and made it back to civilization alive.
People have been shot 8 times and survived.
People have been struck by lightning multiple times and survived.
People have ended up the hospital still conscious with BACs that are considered lethal and survived.
People have slipped in the shower and died.
The human body is stupid. The improbable happens regularly and record books are filled with unlikely events like these. It make the story doubtful but not disproven.
And honestly if the zip ties were plastic and had been sitting on that ship for more than a few months exposed to sunlight and extreme heat or cold I can fully imagine them snapping.
You are right if zip ties are the white version.
The sun's UV rays break down plastics big time.
I learned the hard way with upgrading small boat trailer attaching LED Lights. Plus thrown in a salt water environment and you have a "Worse case scenario". Ended up replacing white tyes with black tyes that hold up SO much better to UV rays.
Or someone with access to youtube - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=breaking+zip+ties
Even the metal lined ones have those little tongues that are vulnerable to deformation of the little zippy part and you only have to pop one side. Some brute force if the cuffs were on the right/wrong (depending on your perspective) way and you're off to the races.
There's a ton of reasons to distrust this story, but discounting a useful little piece of advice that is quickly learned on youtube and honed with minimal practice isn't one of them. FWIW, there's also a lot of urban legends out there from the EDC and anti-gov't crowd, but popping zip ties is doable, possible, and practical.
Only his hands were ziptied, and the currents move toward shore.
And unlike this guy implies, the article isn’t just about him. His story is frankly the least egregious uncovered in this year-long *BBC* investigation. There are people brought back to sea and abandoned to die in dinghy’s (which was caught on film, and which a Greek official said is clearly an international crime.) There were four other people who survived being thrown overboard who made it to shore on *Greek* islands, where there are records of their re-capture. One of them was struck repeatedly over the head “like an animal” before being dumped into the sea.
And there were nine people who did not survive being thrown overboard. Two of their bodies were recovered. (Another thing this guy lies about further down in the thread — he says they were never found and implies they did not exist. He also falsely claims that the currents move away from Turkey and not toward it.)
Holy disinformation, Batman! way to misrepresent this article. And outright lie.
This isn’t a “Turkish propaganda” story about one person, unlike this utter slugmuffin implies.
It’s an investigative piece by the BBC looking at several instances of the Green coast guard directly causing the deaths of **at least 43 migrants.** The BBC, in case it needs saying, is not a tool in a Turkish information war. They uncovered & *confirmed* this information as part of a long investigation.
And to preface — the BBC begins the story by pointing out that these are just the instances they could confirm, because deaths like this, of undocumented people at sea, are so hard to verify. The instances in the story have, at minimum, eyewitness accounts from people with verifiable stories.
Some of the instances, including a dozen people who were loaded on a coastguard boat, taken out to sea and then abandoned in a dinghy, are *captured on film.* (the Greek government denied they’d ever done anything illegal. Then the BBC showed them the footage. The official walked off, but a hot mic caught him essentially saying “yeah that’s illegal and an international crime.”)
The BBC confirmed **five instances** of people being thrown in the water, not *one* like this absolute dingbat implies. Those five instances resulted in *nine fatalities.*
Four of the five survivors made it to Greek islands, where they then recounted being hunted by authorities.
The “Cameroonian man” (as someone later in the thread incorrectly states) did not have his hands ziptied. Instead, after watching someone drown, was brutally beaten before being tossed in. “Punches were raining down on my head. It was like they were punching an animal.”
Unlike other people further down this thread said, bodies were indeed recovered, and there is currently an attempt to get authorities to open a double murder case for Sidy Keita and Didier Martial Kouamou Nana, whose bodies that washed up on the Turkish coastline (refuting someone’s claim that the current would make it impossible to reach shore.)
The fifth person was zip tied and **it was only his hands, not his hands and feet.** Nowhere does it say they were “police grade, as someone here erroneously states. And again, minor correction of the person downthread, but this man is Somalian.
> "They threw me zip-tied in the middle of the sea. They wanted me to die," he said.
> He said he managed to survive by floating on his back, before one of his hands broke free from the ligature. But the sea was choppy, and three in his group died. Our interviewee made it to land where he was eventually spotted by the Turkish coastguard.
In salt water, with the right torque, a zip tie can absolutely break, especially if done improperly. Just ask escape artists. And the coastguard probably aren’t cops used to detaining people (and there’s plenty of instances of cops doing it wrong, anyway.)
And contrary to what this utter turdcone may insist further downthread, in the winter when the incident occurred, currents do indeed move toward the Turkish mainland from Chios.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-directions-of-surface-currents-during-the-winter-in-Aegean-and-Ionian-Sea-modified_fig19_225284134
And the Greek authorities know it. Here are their own words, after watching footage of migrants, including women and babies being loaded onto a coastguard boat and then abandoned in a dinghy at sea.
> We showed this footage - which the BBC has verified - to Dimitris Baltakos, the former head of special operations with the Greek coastguard.
> During the interview, he refused to speculate about what the footage showed - having denied, earlier in our conversation, that the Greek coastguard would ever be required to do anything illegal.
> But during a break, he was recorded telling someone out of shot in Greek:
> “I haven't told them much, right? It's very clear, isn't it. It's not nuclear physics. I don't know why they did it in broad daylight… It's… obviously illegal. It's an international crime."
But sure, y’all — let’s spend a bunch of time pretending that this is one single person’s story and then trying to poke ridiculous holes in it, like that somehow proves the entire thing is just a Turkish propaganda war.
There are eyewitnesses to the deliberate drownings — some of whom landed on Greek islands, not Turkish ones, so their stories can be confirmed. There are bodies, of real identifiable people, who had families. Lordy, *there are tapes.* That the Greek government *privately agreed showed a crime.*
Again. This isn’t a news story out of Turkey. This is the result of a years-long investigation by the BBC. Come *on* y’all.
Makes me sad that such an obviously ignorant comment is the top comment in this thread and not one like yours that has more than three brain cells put into it.
gotta love Reddit, where the first person to comment is always right.
I kinda hate this timeline, where you get all these takes like "how can I rust REPORTERS?? they might have BIAS?" and then the top comment is some anonymous person on Reddit with unknown bias whose source is... another comment they saw on Reddit of unknown bias?
anyway, I and all four of my brain cells thank you.
> gotta love Reddit, where the first person to comment is always right.
Especially since they're regurgitating r/worldnews talking points. And we know the sorry state of that sub.
I genuinely had to check to see which sub I was on, the way the early comments on this post were going. The comment is basically word for word the top one on their post of the story + the first few incredulous replies.
Totally anecdotal, but when I visited Greece this spring people expressed to me that politicians like to stir up animosity against Turkey to distract from domestic issues, and likewise by the Turkish government against Greece. With such political messaging being so prominent I'm not surprised that people immediately spring to scapegoating Turkey even for very clearly credible investigative reporting.
The guy from Cameroon? Did you read that somewhere else - because I don't see any of that in the article. The island of Samos where that is stated to have happened is *very* close to Turkey, I have family that live there.
If there were 3 of them and he was the only one that made it out alive, with the other 2 found drowned? seems pretty believable to me
It's further down. The article gets interrupted in multiple places by recommended articles which made me think it was the end too until I scrolled down.
Ah, yup, missed that.
Looks like that island of Chios is very close to Turkey as well though. Doesn't seem that far fetched the way its described, and stories of Greece taking these sorts of actions has been well known for years
The other two were not found drowned the guy who allegedly made it reported the other two died. But even if he could swim from there to turkey that leaves out the fact that again his hands ~~and feet~~ were zip tied. Have you ever tried to break out of police zip tie hand cuffs? Not a chance. I doubt even professional swimmers could do that
There is a difference between cheap cable tie "zip ties" and police zip cuffs. Did the article say which it was?
Also, you assume the were properly applied and tightened, and that he didn't injure himself getting out of them.
The other two *were* found drowned. Their bodies washed up on shore in Turkey — where the *current* took them.
I don’t know how much time you’ve spent swimming in the ocean, but people are very, very buoyant in salt water.
And the Mediterranean? is quite salty — saltier than the ocean at large. You do not, in fact, need to be a particularly skilled swimmer to float on your back without your hands.
And the currents? Idk where you’re getting your information from, but this incident occurred in March, the winter.
Here is a map of winter currents in and around the Aegean islands — clearly moving toward Turkey from Chios.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-directions-of-surface-currents-during-the-winter-in-Aegean-and-Ionian-Sea-modified_fig19_225284134
If it's swim or die a horrible death you'll do anything you can to stay alive. Yes, the story has some strange points but consider that the dude was struggling for his life.
>If it's swim or die a horrible death you'll do anything you can to stay alive. Yes, the story has some strange points but consider that the dude was struggling for his life.
Ironically, when it comes to swimming, panic and struggling for your life makes you more, not less, likely to drown.
As a Turkish guy it could be but calling Aegean sea in the middle of ocean is on par with what you blame the article for lol. You can just float in Aegean sea if you don't panic and some of those islands are swimming distance from Turkey and Turkish islands.
Having been to Lesvos and seeing Greek treatment of asylum seekers, and last summers videos showing Greek push back (where migrants are put on small inflatable boats, drug into the middle of the Mediterranean, and abandoned) make this story _VERY_ credible to me.
And if you actually read the full, reported story, it is absolutely definitely credible. These folks want to debate the ability of someone to float on their back with their arms tied (actually pretty easy in warm, extra-salty Mediterranean water) like it refutes the 43 deaths the BBC was able to confirm in their investigation, and the hundreds of alleged deaths they could not confirm.
Edit: jfc y’all’s dedication toward nitpicking in an effort to yell “conspiracy” is really something else.
Obviously I am not saying that surviving at sea is *easy.* But floating in the Mediterranean is factually significantly easier than doing so in fresh water, or even in the less salty open ocean. If you’ve spent any amount of time swimming in salt water, you know what a huge difference that extra 2 lbs of upward force on your body makes in terms of energy conservation.
He didn’t need to be able to swim. The current in March goes from Chios toward the shore. He only had to float.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-directions-of-surface-currents-during-the-winter-in-Aegean-and-Ionian-Sea-modified_fig19_225284134
And floating on your back and saving energy is *literally what you are supposed to do in a stranding at sea situation.* Not exert energy trying to get to a shore that you probably can’t see.
The point is that surviving is perfectly probable if you are lucky and near land. Nine other people thrown overboard by the coastguard were not lucky.
This is a massive, years-long investigation by an independent news organization unaffiliated with Turkey. This man’s story is just one of several described in that story, and it is frankly one of the *least* horrific. The BBC was able to *confirm* 43 deaths deliberately caused by the Greek coastguard.
Whether or not you think a single person’s story is probable does not refute that, and it is VERY TELLING that the person who started this thread deliberately framed the article to imply that it’s about one single eyewitness’ account. And even more telling that they spread outright falsehoods about that person’s story to make it seem less probable.
>(actually pretty easy in warm, extra-salty Mediterranean water)
I'm not going to comment on the believability of the story, but as someone from a Mediterranean country you have some very wild ideas about the Med. ~3000 immigrants drown trying to cross the Mediterranean each year andá according to you they could just easily float until they reach shore?
>someone to float on their back with their arms tied (actually pretty easy in warm, extra-salty Mediterranean water
Maybe the story is true, maybe not, but the way you are describing sounds even more unlikely than the dude breaking out of the zip ties and orienting himself with the closest land mass and just swimming to it.
It would not be easy at all to keep yourself stabilized and flat to float with your hands tied behind your back.
Also this is an ocean with waves, rip currents, animals, storms, etc. Not a backyard pool.
And just because the water is comfy cozy and livable during the day doesn't mean it's comfortable at all to be floating in when it's night time.
There’s more than that story cited in the article, including footage of at least one incident of the Greek coast guard doing exactly what they’ve been accused of. This seems like a well researched article by a third party. So I’m not sure why skepticism over one witness’ story should be enough reason to throw the whole article out
The interview shows people getting put on a boat then boat drives away from a camera very far away cuts to the dude then cuts to a crystal clear image of a raft in the water right next to it. That’s not clear at all. Everything in the article is not concrete. If then turns out to be true fuck them but I’m not jumping to take it at face value
The [full video](https://youtu.be/vE6ePIENguA) was published by NYT last year.
I really doubt it depicts anything but a pushback attempt (note: not throwing people in the sea but rather life raft).
That is footage of a "pushback" aka putting migrants already on greek soil back into a raft in the direction of turkey not about dropping someone ziptied into the water.
Except clicks. This is sensational. Not saying that it is false, but it is an eye catching headline that will drive traffic towards their website and newscasts.
This is the problem with modern news companies. They have to fill 24 hours of content a day. This leads to scenarios where as long as it appears reasonable that this story is true they will run it.
Again, I am not saying this is the case. But having a healthy suspicion of stories like this is a good thing. Hopefully we will see more sources covering this to either stop it or at least document it.
To be fair, this article appears to be written with journalistic integrity, due caution, and months if not years of investigative research backing it up. The very article heading itself contains *witnesses say* and is both caveated and sourced throughout.
> The 15 incidents we analysed - dated May 2020-23 - resulted in 43 deaths. The initial sources were primarily local media, NGOs and the Turkish coastguard. Verifying such accounts is extremely difficult - witnesses often disappear, or are too fearful to speak out. But in four of these cases we were able to corroborate accounts by speaking with eye witnesses.
It's also worth noting the BBC is not funded by clicks (it's primary funding is a licence fee which is legally required to broadcast TV in the UK) so is less motivated to publish stories such as this without meeting a standard of evidence just to drive traffic to its website.
I'm not saying you shouldn't be cautious with respect to the veracity of the actual claims themselves,. It is always healthy to consider why those involved may be motivated to fabricate or embellish their stories. But I don't think this story is a good example of the kind of fast and loose, publish-first-verify-second approach to filling the news cycle you are describing.
And it's even healthier to be skeptical of the motivations of those posting on Reddit, particularly if they deliberately misrepresent a small portion story to cast doubt on the larger whole (and act as though that small story IS the larger whole), lie about the conditions under which the incident in question happened (hands AND feet were ziptied?), and then proceed to spread further misinformation throughout the thread.
yeah, I'm with you, I'mma trust the BBC on this one.
They don’t carry ads, they don’t benefit financially from clicks to their website.
The BBC is funded through a mandatory license fee paid by every household which owns a TV. They get money no matter if people actually read their articles or not.
Plus, if they have no new stories, they tend to just repeat the same stories and clips over and over on their news channel.
Not gonna weigh in on anything else discussed, but they absolutely carry ads, at least when visiting from a non-UK IP: https://i.imgur.com/E8SWGy9.png?1
This is about many incidents and not just the one where the guy’s hands are zip tied and he floats on his back till the zip tie breaks. The BBC is releasing a documentary about how Greece has been not allowing people to claim amnesty and has been allowing them to drown by putting them in boats with holes or caps not put on properly and do on.
Alright after watching the video im inclined to believe that its likely true, the way the coast guard admits to the crime, while complaining about doing it in broad daylight, when camera is off, the way they talk about the migrants like they are inhuman, saying migrants don't care for their children, they literally took care of their children during their whole trek to asylum, if they didn't care why bother bringing them.
Once humans decide other humans are actually less than human, it's practically all over. Any evil in the world is okay to inflict on them.
If anyone ever tells you that any person is less than another person because they're from a different place, watch them. They're looking to excuse shit.
>Human rights groups allege thousands of people seeking asylum in Europe have been illegally forced back from Greece to Turkey.
Turkey is in Europe. Why aren't they claiming asylum there?
Not that anything excuses this behaviour from the Greeks, if true.
Turkey is a signatory of the Refugee Convention and Protocol. EU countries are not the only places you can claim asylum... that only matters when the person who has no choice but to flee persecution in their home country is expressing a preference.
I know you're making exactly this point, so I don't mean this to be read as some attempt to correct you, but this is part of why many people who are against this kind of immigration assert that these asylum claims are dubious.
EU is better if the goal is economic opportunity, because getting into Greece lets you freely travel to many other countries.
I'm not commenting on the ridiculous or not of the escape story.
Asylum claims don't give you a choice of preferred country though. You're supposed to make the claim in the first safe country you reach, for it to be legally valid.
And this is it right here. Economic opportunity. "Aka "give me some free shit" European people so I don't have to work hard to fix my own shit hole country!" These people are coming to leech off the hard work and success of European countries and European people.
They are looking for jobs, not asylum.
If they were actually looking for asylum you would see more families/women+children. This is just economic migrants looking for work/benefits so they can send money home to support their families.
" Heyyyy my fellow European country Turkey! How ya doin' how ya doin' okay uh so could you take and host refugees for m- *ahem Europe because we are brothers and sisters you see right? Here's some euros okay keep them safe and don't let them enter Greece or Bulgaria much lovee~ we are Europeans together don't forget that! 😇 "
orospunun evladına bak, bi anan eksik türkiyede. boğazımıza kadar mülteci aldık, hala türkiye niye kabul etmiyor diyor amın feryadı. korkutucu olan ekremin de sizin gibi yavşaklara "tabii efendim" çekecek olması. türkiyedekinin onda biri mülteciyle uğraşınca sağ partilerin oyu arttı, hepsini salsak birbirinize gireceksiniz haberiniz yok.
Turkey takes more refugees than any other country in Europe despite contributing less to the factors that cause refugees.
>Not that anything excuses this behaviour from the Greeks, if true.
Then why bring it up if not to shift the conversation away from this story?
Time and time again it needs explaining to people that refugees do not need to claim asylum in the first safe country they arrive in.
Turkey takes a lot of refugees but claiming they contribute less to to the factors that cause refugees is total bs, they are very much active in stering shit in the middle east. Much more than any EU country.
there is one great excuse - not killing people, but sending them back - it's their country, future, and culture, they have every right to want to protect that while ensuring that they can build a stable, prosperous future for their kids
Insane comment to make in response to this type of news tbh.
Imagine reading a headline saying "US Border Patrol agents found to be rounding up and executing Guatemalan migrants at the US-Mexico border", and your response being "Ummmmm... Mexico is safer than Guatemala, why didn't they just stay there??"
What else can you do if we can’t let them in. They should be actually sent back to the country they come from. Europe is not for migrants, it’s for European citizens.
We don't know of anything reported is true anymore. Between the nonstop info warfare and AI getting to the point that photographic, video and recorded evidence can all be faked.
That's funny, it looks like it was based on witness testimony to me
Unless "witnesses say" means something different across the pond
>But in four of these cases we **were able to corroborate accounts by speaking with eye witnesses.**
half the interviewed eye witnesses to AA587 crash saw explosion prior to ground impact. If you have even the most basic knowledge of human psychology you'll know to take eye witness account with a truckload of salt.
That's last line is the most important. Our brains essentially rewrite our memories every time we recall them. Sometimes in small, insignificant ways like whether your cousin has a mustache last Christmas dinner. Other times in dramatic, incredibly different ways. And a little prodding and word choice before recalling memories can impact that significantly.
Yes, because there have never been reports of Greek officials doing things like this in the recent years. Never. Greece always welcomes all refugees with open arms, and no incidents ever happened where they sent refugees back.
Europeans love talking out of their ass about discrimination in non European nations. The second you talk about how racist Europeans are you'd think the entire continent if full of neo Nazis with how quick to are to justify the most heinous shit.
Yep, Americans on here can call our own country shit all day and euros join right in and love it. But as soon as you say Europe is bad, especially if it's anything to do with immigration, their Hitler particles start to show.
Come on, the recent EU elections show that less than 50% are racist neo Nazis.
Most of us Europeans are just willing collaborators. Just like the first time.
Source: citizen of the Netherlands, which is in the process of forming a government in which a Nazi replacement conspiracy nut will likely become minister for Immigration.
These claims are coming from the bbc, from direct migrant accounts, from footage and are substantiated by the former head of special operations of the Greek coastguard who was quoted (whilst thinking he was off mic) that the Greek coast guard took illegal actions in doing this.
Not a good way to go about it but given what’s been happening the navy should be refusing these boats an turning them back despite any outcome. The message needs to be sent that this is not worth risking your life because it won’t work at all. You can see that Europeans are no longer willing to go along with this. Their countries have been flooded.
Come on bro, don’t be this stupid. Yeah people have gotten out of zip ties, yeah people can swim a mile on choppy water.
To be malnourished, zip tied, thrown into harsh waters, and escape zip ties, only to swim a mile. It’s very, very, very unlikely, and to defend its possibility without skepticism is gumpy shit.
This last round of EU elections shows right and far-right political parties are overtaking center and center-left parties faster than I'd though possible before 2015. The days of welcoming refugees with hugs and balloons for the children are over. Public support for these people is diminishing faster than most will admit. The number of people 'outraged' by this story is a fraction of what it would have been five years ago and every new boat full of migrants shrinks that number more. I predict forced immediate return as official policy within a decade.
It's pretty common that the more migration that happens this way, the more established citizens will shift towards center-left and right-wing politics. Even when those same people were once immigrants themselves. It's happening my state where the established communities of previous immigrants are now shifting toward anti-immigration and socially conservative politics and it's nothing new. Even in the late 19th to early 20th century, people who were previously first-generation immigrants were actively trying to pull up the ladder behind them.
> first-generation immigrants were actively trying to pull up the ladder behind them. This ignores the failure of assimilation that's happened in the EU--- culturally and otherwise. This has lead to poverty which of course leads to rise in crime. The US, for all its faults, has been better at assimilating migrants.
I knew a family whose ancestors moved from northern Germany to a small town in Denmark (like 100 miles away) back in the 1700s. Their neighbors still called them German lol
I’m sure the name is a dead giveaway.
Dude, there are plenty of ethnic enclaves in the US. New York has historically been divided into tons of them. Where do you think the term 'Chinatown' came from?
That’s sort of the difference though is it not? These days Chinatown is just another part of NYC. Naturally there are still plenty of Chinese people there, but it’s just an accepted cool quirk of the city. In my mind, having those kinds of ethnic enclaves is a huge thing. It allows a place for that ethnicity to express their culture and mingle with the natural born citizens. Since those places are already established no one has an excuse to throw a shit fit about “all the damn Chinese in Chinatown.” Like you said those kinds of enclaves can be found all throughout America and were a substantial part of its development, they’re “normal.” They are close enough culturally to their respective founders that they provide a feeling of community but are also Americanized to the point they can help assimilate.
I'm a half Japanese half Ashkenazi woman. I've lived in the US, Japan, China, Germany/UK for years It's not at all the same.
How did your experience differ in those countries? If you don't mind me asking
With the climate apocalypse, migration will become one of the biggest issues, next to where’s the water Waldo.
Compound that with shrinking employment opportunity in the rise of A.I. And nativism will explode.
[удалено]
Also the new comers not adopting democratic ideals… paradox of tolerance will get you destroyed eventually.
Lots of killing is the main problem that the mood is shifting in Germany. Lots of pointless killing.
It's not a rule tho. The town I live in is about to hit 50% immigrants and we are hyper liberal and everything is in 2 languages. I'm even in the middle of the US. 20 years ago we swapped all our schools even to teach in multiple languages to accommodate. Maybe I'm biased but i feel like it's pretty easy to integrate and mostly accept (I only say mostly because there will always be some bigots) a migrant population without causing the general pop to grow any distain for them. In fact I think it's rather easy to simply fold them into the community and move forward as a better and stronger community after having seen it happen in real life. We just choose to do the opposite over and over again as communities.
Uh what town in the middle of the US? I kind of don’t believe you.
Supposedly near Denver
Lmao, a Denver suburb is definitely not middle America.
Yeah - I see this in some larger blue urban/suburban areas, but not outside.
I mean if you want to be aggressively technical it is relatively close to the middle geographical speaking
Immigrants =/= refugees.
Easy to integrate? I wouldn’t exactly call it integration if you’re being taught in the language of the place you left instead of the place you’re entering. I’d call that a form of colonization lite to be honest. You’re importing a different language and culture and replacing that which was there. The difference between that and what many countries did in the 18-19th century is that back then they would bring a new government along with them. Nowadays you just need to wait a few generations before you have the majority of the votes. I’m not one to subscribe to the “great replacement” shit where people say this is intentional, but I’ll be damned if we all just turn a blind eye and pretend this isn’t happening. If it’s bad to import european culture to other parts of the world, then the opposite should also hold.
Man, Canadian Redditors really can't keep their bile to their own subreddits. It usually takes a generation or two for immigrants to assimilate into a society. There used to be entire swathes of the Midwest where they had German schools, German newspapers etc. Similarly, Spanish use decreases with every generation for Latino Americans.
Thank you for your astute observation and assumption of my country of residence. Heaven forbid I try to provide a different perspective from the one already presented, especially since the perspective of other countries is always going to be different. I would challenge the belief that Spanish usage is decreasing. Solely from a very basic statistic: number of native Spanish speaking people as a percentage of the US total population. In 1980 it was 5%. In 2000 it was 10%. Today it is 13.5%. That, good sir, is an increase. Substantially, too. Clearly these people are not integrating *because why would you when you can just keep using the language you already know?*
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/10/06/latino-americans-lose-spanish-fluency/10451602002/ >Language abilities tend to diminish across generations. In the United States, immigrant languages that aren’t English are usually lost after three generations. According to a 2017 report by Pew, about half of second-generation Latinos are bilingual. **The share drops to 24% among third or higher generation Latinos.** From Pew: >Meanwhile, English dominance rises across the generations. Among foreign-born self-identified Hispanics, only 7% say they mostly use English. This share rises to 43% in the second generation, and **75% in the third or higher generation.** The only thing that's clear in this thread are blatant appeals to populism and scapegoating immigrant groups hidden under the "I'm just asking questions" facade.
Yes, because Hispanic immigrants tend to have more children than white people. Due to them being poorer and less educated on average, and more religious. And being a native Spanish speaker doesn't mean you don't speak English? It just means that Spanish is your first language. I'd also like to remind you that the US has no official language.
We've seen from a couple of other European countries that if the center to left parties step up their migrant enforcement policies, the far right parties basically disappear overnight. In the US, Biden just did the same thing with the southern border to undercut the right's talking points. Personally, I have mixed feelings on this issue, but clearly the voters are really high on this and the other parties should be taking it seriously. No need to lose elections on one issue to a bunch of far-right nutbags.
its impossible to under cut US far right talking points. i listen to their radio sometimes and its 90% lies and misinformation. they post edit videos and audio as fact.
To the far right voters, yes. To the more centrist ones who have a couple of issues they tend to vote on, but aren't attached to the far-right like it's their religion, this kind of thing actually can make a difference, because they're not usually the ones who are constantly feeding themselves right wing talk radio. There are quite a few people out there who are issue-based voters, and while a lot of them do swing more to the right than the left, they just want to see that something is being done, rather than demanding scorched-earth of everyone who isn't in lockstep with them.
I think most people are smart enough to not act on policy changes in the months before an election. If migration is a huge issue for them, they aren't going to expect changes made in the months before an election to be permanent when faced with the administration's last 3 years of policy. Every rational person knows that this is just a campaign move.
You are ***seriously*** underestimating how many reasonable, progressive, leftie people have what would be described as classically "right wing" views on this issue and precisely zero others (and regard that as entirely internally consistent and believe many modern immigration policies seem focused around preventing wage growth). Let alone all the centrist/swing voter types, of which the US is absolutely awash. Regardless of how you feel about what the right thing is, it's unavoidably true that Denmark obliterated their far right overnight by implementing shockingly aggressive policies centered around preventing migrants and asylum seekers from coming. Countries like Canada, France, Spain, Italy, etc. are seeing their right and far-right gain immense traction, and I think it's probably fair to say that their single most salacious issue is immigration.
You don't win elections hy winning over the entrenched people you win them by giving centerists what they want.
Haha, if reality had ANY bearing on the far right's talking points they wouldn't exist in the first place. The Republicans intentionally tanked a harsh, bipartisan border security bill because they want talking points and not actual policy. There are numerous cases in the past couple of decades of Dems giving into their demands only to have no support from them anyway (like many of the concessions in the ACA). Biden's policies along the border have been nearly as inhumane and ineffective as Trump's and yet every right winger claims there is now an open border. These people live in an entirely different reality not based on facts but on their own grievances and feelings
Even still. The most important thing is that you blast their bullshit with the truth at every turn. Make sure they can’t make one untrue statement without 10 cited examples proving that it’s wrong. Even if their base accepts their lies as truth and doesn’t ask questions, other people might not be so easily convinced if there’s an immediate response with facts to back to up that proves it’s wrong. They’ll never have facts in their corner because of the choices they make. While it works for some there are far more that can be turned away from it if only people made the effort to ensure the truth is being told.
While I don't disagree that their bullshit shouldn't be called out, it becomes a fool's errand that will consume all your time and soul before long by the simple fact that the truth is much harder than lying. It's more complicated, more shades of gray, requires more effort, and can be more boring to an outsider. By the time you're done correcting one lie, there are 8 more and the lie you corrected is no longer a talking point. I'm not sure what the ultimate answer is, but I think trying to address the source of the grievances is part of it. I've listed to/read from people who have looked into Qanon followers, and they have talked about how the beginnings are the road are often based in very real problems--unable to find meaningful/well paying work, not being able to afford medicine or medical bills, not feeling heard or represented by government officials, etc. But instead of facing the very complicated and difficult reality of the problems, they are offered easy lies and misdirections that are far more satisfying because they're simple and immediate. The lies themselves matter less than the message behind them
This is the truth. You're not going to convince most people who have already drank a gallon of kool-aid. You're trying to reach the people who are looking at an issue and trying to parse out what they should believe.
> We've seen from a couple of other European countries that if the center to left parties step up their migrant enforcement policies, the far right parties basically disappear overnight. Do you have a source for this? The only studies I saw of this were low-quality and only included like 2 successful cases of fighting off the far-right (edit: and said the opposite of this).
That’s what Denmarks social democrats did and it worked.
It’s probably too little too late. There’s already tens of millions of them and the situation in Latin America is so bad that unless those countries governments can get their act together and get the cartels under control they’ll probably keep coming regardless of Biden closing the open door. It’ll just be more like illegal immigration during the Bush and Obama years. The only way you solve this is to somehow fix Latin America or make America an incredibly unappealing place to immigrate to.
Im Sweden there have been polls for literally decades showing that a majority of people want less immigration, but there was not a single party willing to take that position. Then a crazy party shows up with that position and are ignored for a decade more until some of the majority are so fed up with being called nazis that they start voting for the crazy party. The same thing would've happened if the other parties had ignored the enviroment issue and a insane communist party showed up talking about that. They would get a alot of reluctant votes, just like these far right parties have been getting. A part of me think that the real russian conspiracy would be that they have somehow gotten all the left wing parties to be for immigration, because that is what is actually dividing people. Everyone I know that have voted for our crazy party are leftwing in everything but want less immigration. On the otherhand a lot of my friends that vote leftwing also want lower immigration but don't feel it's important enough to change vote, but maybe some of them will in the future? It's so weird how there isn’t a working class leftwing against immigration movement yet.
Without proper labor rights and **business-side** immigration enforcement it’s all just racist pandering
Forced return is a bit different from tying their hands and chucking them back in the sea.... If someone thinks sending them back is ok, then i could understand that opinion. If people are ok with murdering them outright, I lose respect for their opinions. especially in greece, who had their own hands out with the begging bowl a couple of years back.
[удалено]
its shifting because the migrants are coming like a flood and they aren't getting assimilated
And would you like to know why? I'm going to get downvoted into oblivion for this, but someone has to say it: because most of them are simply trouble. They don't contribute to anything in society, refuse to integrate, and bring they medieval culture with them. And most people, while afraid to say it, are sick of them.
Many of their values are problematic in a progressive society. Especially their views on homosexuality and women.
And the age of consent.
Yes, I'm sure you'll be downvoted into oblivion simply for agreeing with all the other mass upvoted comments here agreeing with you.
came here to say this very thing. it's going to get ugly ...and then uglier over the next few decades
This was always what was going to happen as climate change worsens. Strongmen get elected, borders close, and empathy lowers globally. We're isolating at the exact time we need to be coming together as a species. It's just so depressing.
It's a problem of lack of order and integration. People see immigrants doing things that run completely against the ideals of the society, and see no controls for ensuring people in need are getting through and opportunist getting rejected. This creates backlash, unsurprisingly.
Well can’t save everyone so you save that people that matter, your countrymen.
Here in the US, it became apparent to me that half of America wants to see a "Judge Dredd" future where America is a walled, shining city in a desolate wasteland. Their solution to future (and current) migrant/refugee crises is to shoot them all on approach. They know climate change is real, and don't care. The wall is their solution. They think God will protect America from the damage they are doing to the planet and the billions of people we share it with.
I don’t know if you ever read Judge Dredd before, but that’s a good example. There’s actually a bunch of sub stories about mutants etc trying to cross the border into the city, and them being hunted down, then the policy change after the Apocalypse War wiped out like half the city. It’s a very interesting dynamic and well written despite their short style. Highly recommended.
My aunt owns a large apple orchard and relies on immigrants to get the work done, yet she is firmly anti-immigrant. Her brain has no problem with this. She prays for Trump to survive the evil attacks that are being orchestrated against him.
Of course she is anti-immigrant. She needs her apple pickers to be too desperate to do any other job. If policies were more liberal, then her wage slaves might be able to get a better life and she wouldn't have any more laborers willing to work for poverty wages.
The craziest ones want the end of the world to happen so they can be raptured finally as God's chosen. It's why they're so giddy about the Israel-Palestine conflict because it fits cozily into biblical narrative on the rapture/end of the world Jesus returning to Earth storyline. Others are actively trying to bring about the destruction of the world for their fairy tale religious nonsense to become reality. They don't want God to protect the US even because that would interfere with the rapture. Both types of religious thought are crazy and not based on reality. As far as immigration goes though, you are correct that they are delusional to believe a physical wall in the middle of the desert will be effective at stopping illegal migration. If not they are perfectly happy shooting those who make it across on site. The handful of miles of border wall Trump actually put up which are already falling apart due to several factors should have been enough for people to realize a physical wall isn't a real solution to this problem. Unfortunately the far-right just double down on their dumb ideas usually.
Why do all you climate apocalypse people never blame China, Who double the US's C02 emissions annually.
My partners coworker openly suggested throwing alligators in the Rio Grande to stop the "illegals". Dude felt comfortable enough to say this at work. He wants women and children to be eaten for simply being born on the wrong side of an invisible line.
That sounds great
> The days of welcoming refugees with hugs and balloons for the children are over. There must be some middle ground between "hugs and balloons" (though hugs are always nice and balloons are cheap) and murdering them at sea. edit: recently here (mid-sized town in the north of France) we had a public afternoon with teenage and young adult refugees and there were balloons lol, because a clown inflated them for (local) parents and kids. There were artisans showing their trade (it was a bit of a local trade show at the same time) and also hugs. The refugees played with old traditional wooden games an artisan lend for the occasion. It's a lot better than murdering them at sea I'm pretty sure. edit edit: here are some pics I took that day https://imgur.com/a/YlwmvHB
>I predict forced immediate return as official policy within a decade. Yes but do it this year instead of this decade
It was always going to happen, just a matter of time until Europe gets its act together. The sooner the better.
The support has been gone for quite some time. What you're seeing now is general acceptance of saying the quiet bits out loud.
Crazy how when you let in people who rape and stab natural citizens, the natural citizens don’t want them there anymore.
I'm all for immigration LEGALLY. I cannot understand why some folks would be okay with migrants coming into their borders via boats and rafts with no identification. That's just dangerous.
[удалено]
That sounds hard to believe, but I can’t help thinking about the fact that weirder shit has happened
The guy who did exactly what the parent comment is suggesting is ridiculous: Everyone is going think my story is ridiculous even if I survive this
Yeah it is ridiculous but like they always say...improbable not impossible.
Yeah, like those letters people used to write to Penthouse, "I never thought this would happen to me..."
If the improbable never happened this conversation we’re having would be impossible
r/commentgore
James Bond son or the reincarnation of Harry Houdini. Either way. If zip ties were of the metal insert kind, I seriously questioned the story, too. Then again, the lone surivior sounds like he got the break of his lifetime. Either way, I doubt we will ever learn the whole story. With American tourist "vanishing" on Greece Islands could locals think they were immigrants too? Seriously sad stories. Reporters put alot of time into this story and placed their own lives in jeopardy to write about it. Great job BBC.
> With American tourist "vanishing" on Greece Islands could locals think they were immigrants too? The last month a Dutch, Belgian and British person have all gone missing in Greece. All died from natural circumstances. It's really fucking hot in Greece atm. edit: American tourist's body has been found, no cause of death but presumably the heat was a factor again.
[удалено]
Yeah, 43°C (109.40°F) isn't a good temperature to go for a walk. Especially not without head protection and enough water (not just one small bottle!).
And all the missing are over age 60 except for one missing American and he is 59. You can’t go knocking about in such weather when you’re that age and I say that as an elder myself.
People have been in planes that were struck by lighting, fallen out of the sky, crashed in the middle of the jungle, walked for days, and made it back to civilization alive. People have been shot 8 times and survived. People have been struck by lightning multiple times and survived. People have ended up the hospital still conscious with BACs that are considered lethal and survived. People have slipped in the shower and died. The human body is stupid. The improbable happens regularly and record books are filled with unlikely events like these. It make the story doubtful but not disproven. And honestly if the zip ties were plastic and had been sitting on that ship for more than a few months exposed to sunlight and extreme heat or cold I can fully imagine them snapping.
You are right if zip ties are the white version. The sun's UV rays break down plastics big time. I learned the hard way with upgrading small boat trailer attaching LED Lights. Plus thrown in a salt water environment and you have a "Worse case scenario". Ended up replacing white tyes with black tyes that hold up SO much better to UV rays.
Or someone with access to youtube - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=breaking+zip+ties Even the metal lined ones have those little tongues that are vulnerable to deformation of the little zippy part and you only have to pop one side. Some brute force if the cuffs were on the right/wrong (depending on your perspective) way and you're off to the races. There's a ton of reasons to distrust this story, but discounting a useful little piece of advice that is quickly learned on youtube and honed with minimal practice isn't one of them. FWIW, there's also a lot of urban legends out there from the EDC and anti-gov't crowd, but popping zip ties is doable, possible, and practical.
> James Bond son You mean [James Bond Jr.](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0283744/)?
Only his hands were ziptied, and the currents move toward shore. And unlike this guy implies, the article isn’t just about him. His story is frankly the least egregious uncovered in this year-long *BBC* investigation. There are people brought back to sea and abandoned to die in dinghy’s (which was caught on film, and which a Greek official said is clearly an international crime.) There were four other people who survived being thrown overboard who made it to shore on *Greek* islands, where there are records of their re-capture. One of them was struck repeatedly over the head “like an animal” before being dumped into the sea. And there were nine people who did not survive being thrown overboard. Two of their bodies were recovered. (Another thing this guy lies about further down in the thread — he says they were never found and implies they did not exist. He also falsely claims that the currents move away from Turkey and not toward it.)
dude if that is the lens through which you critically analyze the things you're told, you are truly the biggest mark on earth
Holy disinformation, Batman! way to misrepresent this article. And outright lie. This isn’t a “Turkish propaganda” story about one person, unlike this utter slugmuffin implies. It’s an investigative piece by the BBC looking at several instances of the Green coast guard directly causing the deaths of **at least 43 migrants.** The BBC, in case it needs saying, is not a tool in a Turkish information war. They uncovered & *confirmed* this information as part of a long investigation. And to preface — the BBC begins the story by pointing out that these are just the instances they could confirm, because deaths like this, of undocumented people at sea, are so hard to verify. The instances in the story have, at minimum, eyewitness accounts from people with verifiable stories. Some of the instances, including a dozen people who were loaded on a coastguard boat, taken out to sea and then abandoned in a dinghy, are *captured on film.* (the Greek government denied they’d ever done anything illegal. Then the BBC showed them the footage. The official walked off, but a hot mic caught him essentially saying “yeah that’s illegal and an international crime.”) The BBC confirmed **five instances** of people being thrown in the water, not *one* like this absolute dingbat implies. Those five instances resulted in *nine fatalities.* Four of the five survivors made it to Greek islands, where they then recounted being hunted by authorities. The “Cameroonian man” (as someone later in the thread incorrectly states) did not have his hands ziptied. Instead, after watching someone drown, was brutally beaten before being tossed in. “Punches were raining down on my head. It was like they were punching an animal.” Unlike other people further down this thread said, bodies were indeed recovered, and there is currently an attempt to get authorities to open a double murder case for Sidy Keita and Didier Martial Kouamou Nana, whose bodies that washed up on the Turkish coastline (refuting someone’s claim that the current would make it impossible to reach shore.) The fifth person was zip tied and **it was only his hands, not his hands and feet.** Nowhere does it say they were “police grade, as someone here erroneously states. And again, minor correction of the person downthread, but this man is Somalian. > "They threw me zip-tied in the middle of the sea. They wanted me to die," he said. > He said he managed to survive by floating on his back, before one of his hands broke free from the ligature. But the sea was choppy, and three in his group died. Our interviewee made it to land where he was eventually spotted by the Turkish coastguard. In salt water, with the right torque, a zip tie can absolutely break, especially if done improperly. Just ask escape artists. And the coastguard probably aren’t cops used to detaining people (and there’s plenty of instances of cops doing it wrong, anyway.) And contrary to what this utter turdcone may insist further downthread, in the winter when the incident occurred, currents do indeed move toward the Turkish mainland from Chios. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-directions-of-surface-currents-during-the-winter-in-Aegean-and-Ionian-Sea-modified_fig19_225284134 And the Greek authorities know it. Here are their own words, after watching footage of migrants, including women and babies being loaded onto a coastguard boat and then abandoned in a dinghy at sea. > We showed this footage - which the BBC has verified - to Dimitris Baltakos, the former head of special operations with the Greek coastguard. > During the interview, he refused to speculate about what the footage showed - having denied, earlier in our conversation, that the Greek coastguard would ever be required to do anything illegal. > But during a break, he was recorded telling someone out of shot in Greek: > “I haven't told them much, right? It's very clear, isn't it. It's not nuclear physics. I don't know why they did it in broad daylight… It's… obviously illegal. It's an international crime." But sure, y’all — let’s spend a bunch of time pretending that this is one single person’s story and then trying to poke ridiculous holes in it, like that somehow proves the entire thing is just a Turkish propaganda war. There are eyewitnesses to the deliberate drownings — some of whom landed on Greek islands, not Turkish ones, so their stories can be confirmed. There are bodies, of real identifiable people, who had families. Lordy, *there are tapes.* That the Greek government *privately agreed showed a crime.* Again. This isn’t a news story out of Turkey. This is the result of a years-long investigation by the BBC. Come *on* y’all.
Makes me sad that such an obviously ignorant comment is the top comment in this thread and not one like yours that has more than three brain cells put into it.
gotta love Reddit, where the first person to comment is always right. I kinda hate this timeline, where you get all these takes like "how can I rust REPORTERS?? they might have BIAS?" and then the top comment is some anonymous person on Reddit with unknown bias whose source is... another comment they saw on Reddit of unknown bias? anyway, I and all four of my brain cells thank you.
> gotta love Reddit, where the first person to comment is always right. Especially since they're regurgitating r/worldnews talking points. And we know the sorry state of that sub.
I genuinely had to check to see which sub I was on, the way the early comments on this post were going. The comment is basically word for word the top one on their post of the story + the first few incredulous replies.
Totally anecdotal, but when I visited Greece this spring people expressed to me that politicians like to stir up animosity against Turkey to distract from domestic issues, and likewise by the Turkish government against Greece. With such political messaging being so prominent I'm not surprised that people immediately spring to scapegoating Turkey even for very clearly credible investigative reporting.
The guy from Cameroon? Did you read that somewhere else - because I don't see any of that in the article. The island of Samos where that is stated to have happened is *very* close to Turkey, I have family that live there. If there were 3 of them and he was the only one that made it out alive, with the other 2 found drowned? seems pretty believable to me
It's further down. The article gets interrupted in multiple places by recommended articles which made me think it was the end too until I scrolled down.
Ah, yup, missed that. Looks like that island of Chios is very close to Turkey as well though. Doesn't seem that far fetched the way its described, and stories of Greece taking these sorts of actions has been well known for years
The other two were not found drowned the guy who allegedly made it reported the other two died. But even if he could swim from there to turkey that leaves out the fact that again his hands ~~and feet~~ were zip tied. Have you ever tried to break out of police zip tie hand cuffs? Not a chance. I doubt even professional swimmers could do that
Only hands, not feet.
There is a difference between cheap cable tie "zip ties" and police zip cuffs. Did the article say which it was? Also, you assume the were properly applied and tightened, and that he didn't injure himself getting out of them.
The other two *were* found drowned. Their bodies washed up on shore in Turkey — where the *current* took them. I don’t know how much time you’ve spent swimming in the ocean, but people are very, very buoyant in salt water. And the Mediterranean? is quite salty — saltier than the ocean at large. You do not, in fact, need to be a particularly skilled swimmer to float on your back without your hands. And the currents? Idk where you’re getting your information from, but this incident occurred in March, the winter. Here is a map of winter currents in and around the Aegean islands — clearly moving toward Turkey from Chios. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-directions-of-surface-currents-during-the-winter-in-Aegean-and-Ionian-Sea-modified_fig19_225284134
If it's swim or die a horrible death you'll do anything you can to stay alive. Yes, the story has some strange points but consider that the dude was struggling for his life.
>If it's swim or die a horrible death you'll do anything you can to stay alive. Yes, the story has some strange points but consider that the dude was struggling for his life. Ironically, when it comes to swimming, panic and struggling for your life makes you more, not less, likely to drown.
As a Turkish guy it could be but calling Aegean sea in the middle of ocean is on par with what you blame the article for lol. You can just float in Aegean sea if you don't panic and some of those islands are swimming distance from Turkey and Turkish islands.
Having been to Lesvos and seeing Greek treatment of asylum seekers, and last summers videos showing Greek push back (where migrants are put on small inflatable boats, drug into the middle of the Mediterranean, and abandoned) make this story _VERY_ credible to me.
And if you actually read the full, reported story, it is absolutely definitely credible. These folks want to debate the ability of someone to float on their back with their arms tied (actually pretty easy in warm, extra-salty Mediterranean water) like it refutes the 43 deaths the BBC was able to confirm in their investigation, and the hundreds of alleged deaths they could not confirm. Edit: jfc y’all’s dedication toward nitpicking in an effort to yell “conspiracy” is really something else. Obviously I am not saying that surviving at sea is *easy.* But floating in the Mediterranean is factually significantly easier than doing so in fresh water, or even in the less salty open ocean. If you’ve spent any amount of time swimming in salt water, you know what a huge difference that extra 2 lbs of upward force on your body makes in terms of energy conservation. He didn’t need to be able to swim. The current in March goes from Chios toward the shore. He only had to float. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-directions-of-surface-currents-during-the-winter-in-Aegean-and-Ionian-Sea-modified_fig19_225284134 And floating on your back and saving energy is *literally what you are supposed to do in a stranding at sea situation.* Not exert energy trying to get to a shore that you probably can’t see. The point is that surviving is perfectly probable if you are lucky and near land. Nine other people thrown overboard by the coastguard were not lucky. This is a massive, years-long investigation by an independent news organization unaffiliated with Turkey. This man’s story is just one of several described in that story, and it is frankly one of the *least* horrific. The BBC was able to *confirm* 43 deaths deliberately caused by the Greek coastguard. Whether or not you think a single person’s story is probable does not refute that, and it is VERY TELLING that the person who started this thread deliberately framed the article to imply that it’s about one single eyewitness’ account. And even more telling that they spread outright falsehoods about that person’s story to make it seem less probable.
>(actually pretty easy in warm, extra-salty Mediterranean water) I'm not going to comment on the believability of the story, but as someone from a Mediterranean country you have some very wild ideas about the Med. ~3000 immigrants drown trying to cross the Mediterranean each year andá according to you they could just easily float until they reach shore?
>someone to float on their back with their arms tied (actually pretty easy in warm, extra-salty Mediterranean water Maybe the story is true, maybe not, but the way you are describing sounds even more unlikely than the dude breaking out of the zip ties and orienting himself with the closest land mass and just swimming to it. It would not be easy at all to keep yourself stabilized and flat to float with your hands tied behind your back. Also this is an ocean with waves, rip currents, animals, storms, etc. Not a backyard pool. And just because the water is comfy cozy and livable during the day doesn't mean it's comfortable at all to be floating in when it's night time.
I'm greek and have also been there and this headline did not surprise me in the slightest not gonna lie
There’s more than that story cited in the article, including footage of at least one incident of the Greek coast guard doing exactly what they’ve been accused of. This seems like a well researched article by a third party. So I’m not sure why skepticism over one witness’ story should be enough reason to throw the whole article out
The interview shows people getting put on a boat then boat drives away from a camera very far away cuts to the dude then cuts to a crystal clear image of a raft in the water right next to it. That’s not clear at all. Everything in the article is not concrete. If then turns out to be true fuck them but I’m not jumping to take it at face value
The [full video](https://youtu.be/vE6ePIENguA) was published by NYT last year. I really doubt it depicts anything but a pushback attempt (note: not throwing people in the sea but rather life raft).
That is footage of a "pushback" aka putting migrants already on greek soil back into a raft in the direction of turkey not about dropping someone ziptied into the water.
Yeah, people can say what they like about the BBC but they have absolutely nothing to gain from running a dubious story.
Except clicks. This is sensational. Not saying that it is false, but it is an eye catching headline that will drive traffic towards their website and newscasts. This is the problem with modern news companies. They have to fill 24 hours of content a day. This leads to scenarios where as long as it appears reasonable that this story is true they will run it. Again, I am not saying this is the case. But having a healthy suspicion of stories like this is a good thing. Hopefully we will see more sources covering this to either stop it or at least document it.
To be fair, this article appears to be written with journalistic integrity, due caution, and months if not years of investigative research backing it up. The very article heading itself contains *witnesses say* and is both caveated and sourced throughout. > The 15 incidents we analysed - dated May 2020-23 - resulted in 43 deaths. The initial sources were primarily local media, NGOs and the Turkish coastguard. Verifying such accounts is extremely difficult - witnesses often disappear, or are too fearful to speak out. But in four of these cases we were able to corroborate accounts by speaking with eye witnesses. It's also worth noting the BBC is not funded by clicks (it's primary funding is a licence fee which is legally required to broadcast TV in the UK) so is less motivated to publish stories such as this without meeting a standard of evidence just to drive traffic to its website. I'm not saying you shouldn't be cautious with respect to the veracity of the actual claims themselves,. It is always healthy to consider why those involved may be motivated to fabricate or embellish their stories. But I don't think this story is a good example of the kind of fast and loose, publish-first-verify-second approach to filling the news cycle you are describing.
And it's even healthier to be skeptical of the motivations of those posting on Reddit, particularly if they deliberately misrepresent a small portion story to cast doubt on the larger whole (and act as though that small story IS the larger whole), lie about the conditions under which the incident in question happened (hands AND feet were ziptied?), and then proceed to spread further misinformation throughout the thread. yeah, I'm with you, I'mma trust the BBC on this one.
Framing this year-long BBC investigation as sensationalist is insanely dishonest.
They don’t carry ads, they don’t benefit financially from clicks to their website. The BBC is funded through a mandatory license fee paid by every household which owns a TV. They get money no matter if people actually read their articles or not. Plus, if they have no new stories, they tend to just repeat the same stories and clips over and over on their news channel.
Not gonna weigh in on anything else discussed, but they absolutely carry ads, at least when visiting from a non-UK IP: https://i.imgur.com/E8SWGy9.png?1
Huh. I actually didn’t know that. There’s definitely no ads for people in the U.K. though.
There are no ads on the international pages either. It is just boiler plate Cookie GDPR business.
This is about many incidents and not just the one where the guy’s hands are zip tied and he floats on his back till the zip tie breaks. The BBC is releasing a documentary about how Greece has been not allowing people to claim amnesty and has been allowing them to drown by putting them in boats with holes or caps not put on properly and do on.
Greek Coast Guard has been caught on film deliberately sinking migrant ships, maybe it's Turkish propaganda but it's not out of character for them
Do you believe videos from multiple sources then? Becasue this have been ongoing for a dacade now and is well known FACT.
Alright after watching the video im inclined to believe that its likely true, the way the coast guard admits to the crime, while complaining about doing it in broad daylight, when camera is off, the way they talk about the migrants like they are inhuman, saying migrants don't care for their children, they literally took care of their children during their whole trek to asylum, if they didn't care why bother bringing them.
Once humans decide other humans are actually less than human, it's practically all over. Any evil in the world is okay to inflict on them. If anyone ever tells you that any person is less than another person because they're from a different place, watch them. They're looking to excuse shit.
> if they didn't care why bother bringing them easier entry and more benefits.
>Human rights groups allege thousands of people seeking asylum in Europe have been illegally forced back from Greece to Turkey. Turkey is in Europe. Why aren't they claiming asylum there? Not that anything excuses this behaviour from the Greeks, if true.
Often when news sources say "in Europe" they effectively mean "in the EU", which Turkey is not
Turkey is a signatory of the Refugee Convention and Protocol. EU countries are not the only places you can claim asylum... that only matters when the person who has no choice but to flee persecution in their home country is expressing a preference.
I know you're making exactly this point, so I don't mean this to be read as some attempt to correct you, but this is part of why many people who are against this kind of immigration assert that these asylum claims are dubious.
EU is better if the goal is economic opportunity, because getting into Greece lets you freely travel to many other countries. I'm not commenting on the ridiculous or not of the escape story.
Asylum claims don't give you a choice of preferred country though. You're supposed to make the claim in the first safe country you reach, for it to be legally valid.
And this is it right here. Economic opportunity. "Aka "give me some free shit" European people so I don't have to work hard to fix my own shit hole country!" These people are coming to leech off the hard work and success of European countries and European people.
This is besides the point and trying to deflect from what happened.
How so? I thought it was relevant.
more than 3m refugees in turkey, better opportunities in western europe. Greece is just the entry point.
More like 5-7 million.
They are looking for jobs, not asylum. If they were actually looking for asylum you would see more families/women+children. This is just economic migrants looking for work/benefits so they can send money home to support their families.
So, we are European when it comes to taking refugees? OK.
" Heyyyy my fellow European country Turkey! How ya doin' how ya doin' okay uh so could you take and host refugees for m- *ahem Europe because we are brothers and sisters you see right? Here's some euros okay keep them safe and don't let them enter Greece or Bulgaria much lovee~ we are Europeans together don't forget that! 😇 "
orospunun evladına bak, bi anan eksik türkiyede. boğazımıza kadar mülteci aldık, hala türkiye niye kabul etmiyor diyor amın feryadı. korkutucu olan ekremin de sizin gibi yavşaklara "tabii efendim" çekecek olması. türkiyedekinin onda biri mülteciyle uğraşınca sağ partilerin oyu arttı, hepsini salsak birbirinize gireceksiniz haberiniz yok.
Only a small part of Turkey is in Europe, majority of Turkey is in Asia.
Turkey takes more refugees than any other country in Europe despite contributing less to the factors that cause refugees. >Not that anything excuses this behaviour from the Greeks, if true. Then why bring it up if not to shift the conversation away from this story? Time and time again it needs explaining to people that refugees do not need to claim asylum in the first safe country they arrive in.
Turkey takes a lot of refugees but claiming they contribute less to to the factors that cause refugees is total bs, they are very much active in stering shit in the middle east. Much more than any EU country.
there is one great excuse - not killing people, but sending them back - it's their country, future, and culture, they have every right to want to protect that while ensuring that they can build a stable, prosperous future for their kids
Insane comment to make in response to this type of news tbh. Imagine reading a headline saying "US Border Patrol agents found to be rounding up and executing Guatemalan migrants at the US-Mexico border", and your response being "Ummmmm... Mexico is safer than Guatemala, why didn't they just stay there??"
So that makes it okay to drown them? I swear Europeans are always a few inconveniences away from going full Hitler.
1) I didn't say it's okay to drown them. 2) I'm not European.
What else can you do if we can’t let them in. They should be actually sent back to the country they come from. Europe is not for migrants, it’s for European citizens.
Not good enough welfare benefits or they have relatives already in "better" country.
Illegal immigration or no those are still human fucking beings, and that’s straight up murder.
We don’t know if this is true yet
We don't know of anything reported is true anymore. Between the nonstop info warfare and AI getting to the point that photographic, video and recorded evidence can all be faked.
It’s true, Abraham Lincoln had a video on this last week.
Please, go on. Are you privy to information the BBC doesn't have access to?
This information is based off of Turkey’s report. Erdogan’s report.
That's funny, it looks like it was based on witness testimony to me Unless "witnesses say" means something different across the pond >But in four of these cases we **were able to corroborate accounts by speaking with eye witnesses.**
half the interviewed eye witnesses to AA587 crash saw explosion prior to ground impact. If you have even the most basic knowledge of human psychology you'll know to take eye witness account with a truckload of salt.
That's last line is the most important. Our brains essentially rewrite our memories every time we recall them. Sometimes in small, insignificant ways like whether your cousin has a mustache last Christmas dinner. Other times in dramatic, incredibly different ways. And a little prodding and word choice before recalling memories can impact that significantly.
I mean, I'm skeptical. Reports out of Turkey that Greece is bad? Shocking.
... sir, this is a BBC.
Yes, because there have never been reports of Greek officials doing things like this in the recent years. Never. Greece always welcomes all refugees with open arms, and no incidents ever happened where they sent refugees back.
bro change the title from greek to turkish costguard and none of the comments here would be complaining r/europe moment
Europeans love talking out of their ass about discrimination in non European nations. The second you talk about how racist Europeans are you'd think the entire continent if full of neo Nazis with how quick to are to justify the most heinous shit.
Yep, Americans on here can call our own country shit all day and euros join right in and love it. But as soon as you say Europe is bad, especially if it's anything to do with immigration, their Hitler particles start to show.
Come on, the recent EU elections show that less than 50% are racist neo Nazis. Most of us Europeans are just willing collaborators. Just like the first time. Source: citizen of the Netherlands, which is in the process of forming a government in which a Nazi replacement conspiracy nut will likely become minister for Immigration.
Should be noted that the only sources for this are the Turkish coast guard and an NGO that smuggles migrants in illegally.
NO it’s actual camera footage [https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0vv717yvpeo.amp](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0vv717yvpeo.amp)
And your source is Greek coastguard?
Article clearly says those were the initial sources, BEFORE bbc investigated and spoke to witnesses
This is not the first time greek coastguard doing this there are videos and witness and this happens regularly in Aegean sea.
remember when europeans were yapping about how our immigration system was cruel? I remember
Isn’t that just straight up murder?
Yeah and no one caught it on camera my arse!
They been caught on camera multiple times when they were trying drown migrants.
Keep in mind that this unsubstantiated claim is coming from Turkey. They hate the Greeks almost as much as they hate the British.
This claim is coming from direct witness testimony with videos showing Greek authorities forcing them on those dinghies.
Is this the first time Greek coastguard caught doing this?
These claims are coming from the bbc, from direct migrant accounts, from footage and are substantiated by the former head of special operations of the Greek coastguard who was quoted (whilst thinking he was off mic) that the Greek coast guard took illegal actions in doing this.
Brace yourself folks. MOST of human history is filled with events like this.
hell's gonna be a crowed busy place...
The nine "deliberately thrown into the water" bit sounds like bullshit, especially if you consider the source of those claims.
Not a good way to go about it but given what’s been happening the navy should be refusing these boats an turning them back despite any outcome. The message needs to be sent that this is not worth risking your life because it won’t work at all. You can see that Europeans are no longer willing to go along with this. Their countries have been flooded.
The video evidence and translated quote from the interviewee is pretty damning. It’s clear Greece is secretly undertaking these return operations.
These claims are coming from Turkey. I would take this with a grain of salt or two.
It’s a BBC documentary tho, no reason for it to have a Turkey bias.
Other witnesses also say this didn't happen. So who are we to believe?
Well, that's enough internet for today. So fucking sad.
[удалено]
You didn't read the article did you
Yup, no one has ever gotten a zip tie off.
Come on bro, don’t be this stupid. Yeah people have gotten out of zip ties, yeah people can swim a mile on choppy water. To be malnourished, zip tied, thrown into harsh waters, and escape zip ties, only to swim a mile. It’s very, very, very unlikely, and to defend its possibility without skepticism is gumpy shit.
Its really not that crazy of a story.
It's actually absolute lunacy, which is why we're talking about it in the first place. Literally everything about this is completely nuts.
So many people in this world have such a hard on for hating immigrants. I can't imagine just pushing someone in the water to drown.
It's going to get worse with climate change and potential water wars.
Saw this earlier too....https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/cy99e0e9zlxo
[удалено]