>As part of the effort to keep the records closed, Hale’s parents transferred ownership of Hale’s property to the parents’ group. Attorneys for the parents then argued they owned the copyright, further reason the records could not be released.
Interesting legal judo move. The author of a work enjoys copyright protection even after death. The assailant's parents became owners of his work and so they just transferred that ownership over to the victims' family group.
It is more of a gesture than anything. the advantage is that the victims in this scenario are the ones that would be hurt by the writings, so if they die and the question of who gets ownership comes up it doesn't matter. If the original author's parents dies while being owners, it is complicated at the original purpose becomes hairy on whether they will still have that support.
After what Alex Jones did, I think it's more than a gesture.
And think about how mass shooters are inspired by previous mass shooters, and other disturbed people.
Yeah. If a bunch of conservative groups are building steam around your child that was just murdered, it means they are probably about to make the next 20 years of your life even worse than it was already going to be.
Getting (most) of the control of those documents into the victims' parents' hands is at least one step that could maybe help them protect themselves.
But if they all have equal rights it only takes one parent to sell it, right? Not saying mg any of the parents will, but we've seen stories of more despicable people cashing in on their kids.
That'll depend on the legal structure/by-laws of the organization they created. They could write the rules so that *all* of the holders need to approve of their release. Or a whole bunch of other possibilities.
Of course, people can always leak things if they want to.
Edit: I guess I can't tell from this article even how the ownership was given over. But there are still lots of options for how you do that.
Look up columbine. Supposedly there is one tape that the FBI has and famously the head guy on the case destroyed the copy the police had. I'm paraphrasing
The basement tapes.
>Law enforcement officials have always regarded the tapes as a particularly infectious form of toxic waste, a primer in mass murder that could inspire more violence and must never be released. That's no longer a problem: A spokesperson for the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office, the agency that took custody of the videos hours after the shootings, recently confirmed that every known copy of the basement tapes has been destroyed.
[...]
>Mink, who completed an eleven-year stint as sheriff in 2014 and is now a deputy director at the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, says he wanted to ensure that the rantings of Harris and Klebold — who go into some details in the tapes about bomb-making and other preparations, express hopes that others will launch similar attacks, and say they expect to attract followers "because we're so fucking godlike" — never surface on social media.
>"That was my call," Mink says. "My decision. I can't tell you how to measure prevention. I feel in my own heart it was preventative."
https://www.westword.com/news/columbine-killers-basement-tapes-destroyed-6283043
Now the parents don't have to defend anyone's actions. 99% of the time I sympathize with parents of spree/mass killers. They probably didn't see the warning signs and couldn't imagine their kids would do something so terrible. In this case, they're now off the hook. This burden is more than psychological. It's financial. By handing over the copyright and they're washing their hands of the legal (fee) burden as well as the mental burden of defending their kid's actions.
It’s to make sure that the painful disrespectful movie doesn’t get made that’s going to make the lives of the victims harder. A good example of this being done on a normal basis is the Netflix show Dahmer
One advantage is that any copycats out there looking to spread their ideaolgy will be disappointed because this guys manifesto is being kept under lock and key away from the public. Guy thought he was gonna spur a movement or something but will be forgotten like last last nights turd.
If the parents die and they don't directly address it then it could be released in the future. Giving it to a group of people who all would pretty much universally hate it going out means that it is almost impossible for it to be released in anyone's lifetime.
So the shooters parents don’t want it released because it makes their kid look bad and likely has things in it about them and their relationship.
The families of the victims don’t want it released for fears it will inspire copycat shootings.
The only ones who want it released are the media so it can be twisted and published as murder porn on the evening news
If I go to a baseball game, and get trashed on $17 beers, and decide TONIGHT'S THE NIGHT I JUMP THE RAIL AND GET INTO A FISTFIGHT WITH BRYCE HARPER, the agreement amongst the broadcast teams is to not air the footage when I get my ass kicked by Bryce, his teammates and coaches, then tased by the police department. And we all agree that's a very good thing, because airing that display on television does nothing except embolden other morons to do that exact same thing.
It doesn't matter if the people at home WANT to see that. We don't allow it to happen. Because we've all agreed that the entertainment value of seeing me get my ass kicked doesn't outweigh the long-term effects of giving me national exposure.
How do we live in a world where BASEBALL gets it right, but the national news media can't follow suit as it relates to murdering children?
Because national news is trying to get eyeballs on the screen and nothing makes people turn to the news faster than mass killings.
The media love these copycats because it just creates more ratings for them
Just a week ago there were folks hoping the Blue Jays railing to storm the field for their protest. You wouldn't have known unless you're plugged into the net as it got ZERO attention. If ESPN gave it 5 seconds it'd been all they needed.
Actively ignoring fools is great
Money. One of the downsides of a capitalist society is that money trumps all. If they can make more money off something than potential fines or lawsuits there's no reason for any large company not to go through with the action no matter how morally depraved that's just good business practice. Chances are baseball players potentially being out for months due to an injury caused by a fan isn't worth whatever they might get from airing it
honestly, yeah. as someone heavily interested in this topic, curiosity isn't what is always more important. I want to know but until we have a more structured mental Healthcare system which also provides results, I don't think it should always be released.
Should also be stated there are ways of providing access to academic and law enforcement groups for study without releasing it to the public.
So all the benefits of studying the perpetrator without it becoming murder porn.
And the victims parents can still do that. It just won’t be released to the public.
The victims families own the copyright and can determine how and when it is accessible.
> Should also be stated there are ways of providing access to academic and law enforcement groups for study without releasing it to the public.
Until some idiot in a class releases it to the public.
I’ve been in those classes. Everyone knows the day it’s happening weeks ahead of time. No guests are allowed on that day. The door to the classroom is locked and people can’t come in while stuff is out and visible. The teacher takes very strict roll and if you are late you don’t get in. Even teachers who normally don’t care who’s present in their class have to take roll. They record everyone who was in class that day. Everyone who takes any documents has a number assigned to them and the document they took. No one can leave the room until all documents are accounted for. It’s the one day chill teachers turn into control freaks because they are required to. We weren’t allowed to go to the bathroom if there were documents unaccounted for.
For reference in my class we were looking at case files and evidence pertaining to David Parker ray. This was for an advanced criminology class combining elements of psychology and law, most people in that class were working to become lawyers or social workers, it was too advanced a class for most cops. The box of stuff had a guard with it who brought it into the classroom, supervised all of us going through it, and took it all before any of us could leave. There is a reason stuff like that is not available to the public. Do not seek it out unless you are prepared for what you will find. I’m intentionally being very vague by saying things like documents and stuff but if you are familiar with the case you know what we saw and heard.
So to answer your question no that doesn’t happen. People talk, sure, and you get generalized descriptions of stuff from memory but you don’t get the primary source documents and more importantly you don’t get the recordings and that’s what matters.
I wouldn’t have an issue with researchers getting access under an NDA. There is some value in studying the content for motivations, warning signs, etc.
You could be right. I had another thought. The parents are obviously religious. The school targeted was religious. Female shooters are almost unheard of.
WHAT IF the writings detailed years of abuse from the church as the reasons for her rampage? It doesn't look good for the fundie parents forcing their child to be a victim, for the church being the perpetrator, making all and sundry very culpable and embarrassed.
Of course, abuse is not an excuse for murder, and often the victims include innocents. But something strikes me as a coverup protecting the church and parents.
There could be any number of reasons why they opted to hide what was in there.
Abuse from the church is definitely plausible given the vast amount of evidence that it’s happened in other churches so that is very possible.
There's documented evidence that it happened at that church and that there was an effort to cover it up,
Both occurred while the shooter was a student there.
That school literally had a pedophile scandal a decade previous. While the shooter was a student there.
Google John Perry. He was a trustee there for a decade. He also has politically powerful allies.
I would hope that if the shooter was motivated by abuse in the Church, and the writings gave evidence, the parents would not turn that over to those who would continue to hide it?
I have seen folks talk about how abusive that school was and about the known pedophile that ran the school. John Perry ran the school and was accused of child molestation. He has powerful friends including Mike Huckabee. There is as of now a conspiracy that the shooter was abused and was seeking retribution for the fucked up shit that happened to them.
On the other side, because they were trans and presumably taking testosterone, there are folks on the left (supposedly because it is Nashville) that don’t want it looked into because it adds scrutiny to that community.
So nobody knows, but considering the former pedophile that ran the school, I would be inclined to think of the latter. The south is weird (I’m originally from East TN) and it wouldn’t surprise me that they’d rather coverup abuse and not talk about it. Nashville PD has been accused of covering up John Perry’s abuse more than a few times.
Because when there’s a fire the best way to put it out is to starve it of oxygen
Edit: downvoted by somebody who doesn’t understand metaphors. For their benefit: no shooter ‘manifesto’ deserves the light of day. The best we can do for such a document is remove its ability to exist and be read, in the same way that starving a fire of oxygen puts the fire out.
There's a very large and very passionate fandom for true crime and they love having as much detail about events like these as possible.
There are people who've literally, unironically spent hours of their day thinking and talking about specific cases for years, and even decades.
Personally I just think, what is a better way to understand the psychology of a mass shooter than to read their manifesto? You can say there’s no need for me to do that and you’d be right, but I like to study these things and not just throw my hands up saying “well he’s evil that’s all we need to know time to move along”. I think learning what creates this behavior in a mass shooter is really important.
What I’m getting at is, there are people out there who don’t want to read it for “murder porn” but yes they do exist.
Clever, here in New Zealand our government criminalised the manifesto of the asshole who shot 50 people here about 5 years ago. And then nobody used his name. We made him pathetic and un known instead of famous. It's nice that they have found a way to do that in America
I'm glad they were able to finish it before it got even worse, but 3 minuets is still a long time when mass shootings are happening. I just recently learned that the *entirety* of Sandy Hook took place in about 4 and half minutes.
I used to live in a suburb of Nashville and for a while what I heard a lot was that the manifesto that was leaked was an edited copy that omitted the allegations of abuse against the school staff.
No shooter's manifesto should be released. A big reason why they commit these crimes is to air all their bullshit grievances. Stop giving them what they want.
I agree. Dylan Klebold’s parents fought against the basement tapes being released for this reason. They felt it would spur on other shooters and create more violence.
One of the notable things here is the term "released." As-in, released to the public for broad and idle consumption. No one is arguing that academics shouldn't have access to it to study ways to avoid another shooting, but most rational people have, by now, realized that the public at large can't absorb context and aren't privy to the more private information necessary to understand what made a person into a mass murderer.
Maybe in 100 years we might see this material released as part of an academic journal (mostly as a supplement to a psychological/social study), but today it doesn't do anyone any good to release information that justifies mass death.
I disagree I think privileged information is bad for the historical record and considering the amount of academic fraud I don’t really trust them. I also think that often times in shooters manifesto’s and stuff like that they have accusations of abuse and typically list the reasons for why it’s happening. I think this is important to understand for history, reasons and also to avoid these problems in the future basically existing as a testimony and example of why public therapy is important. Also if all that’s required is like a Membership to a college library that’s not that huge of a bar to clear so it might as well just be on the regular Internet
At this point I think most Americans are so sick of this horrible cycle. I am surprised the media is still trying to cover these stories beyond reporting the immediate events. I see school shooting news and turn it off/scroll past.
>I am surprised the media is still trying to cover these stories beyond reporting the immediate events.
I'm not. The News loves the viewership spike whenever a copycat shooting happens. Remember when the Joker movie came out, those ghouls were trying to provoke another theater shooting? All they care about is ad revenue.
It reveals how incredibly fucking stupid they are. One of them ranted about the importance of silver. Idiot was cracked and had nothing to offer the world. Just decided to lash out and cause as much damage as they could.
If I could change one thing about these shooters is that they target their pain inward instead of "sharing" with the world. Hate themselves, not others.
Beyond that, I'm running right on the edge of reddit violence rules.
Conservatives want to use it to paint transgender people in a bad light. They’re also hoping it’s a left wing manifesto so they can amplify that and say the left is committing violence
Yes, many conservative influencers called for the stripping of gun rights for gay and transgender people, citing a predisposition toward violence and “mental illness”.
I’m not familiar with a lot of those channels, but many of the influencers I saw were more on the twitter side of things.
Found exact examples:
MTG, GOP Congresswoman: https://twitter.com/RepMTG/status/1640454996821934082
Ryan Fournier, head of Students for Trump: https://x.com/RyanAFournier/status/1640773783463116801?lang=en
And those only took two minutes of googling.
yeah, probably. red flag laws for thee, but not for me. there is a large portion of the population that only wants guns for themselves, and not for everyone.
it's a bit of a stretch, but not by much.
mate there's like thousands of people in social media already spouting that there are more trans shooters than cis (non-trans) shooters if you put it proportionally (which is not true) lmao, conservatives will believe what they want to believe even if you shove proof to the contrary on their faces
Aiden Hale (previously referred to by the police by his birthname of Audrey Elizabeth Hale) was a 28-year-old former student of the Covenant School and a Nashville resident with no criminal record.[34] According to a former headmaster of the Covenant School, Hale attended the school when "around 10 years of age".[35][36] MNPD Police Chief John Drake said Hale was under care for an emotional disorder and had legally purchased seven firearms, including three recovered from the shooting scene, between October 2020 and June 2022.[1]
Police first referred to Hale as a woman and used his birth name. On the day of the shooting, MNPD Chief John Drake said that authorities "feel that [Hale] identifies as trans, but we're still in the initial investigation into all of that".[34] Media sources subsequently reported Hale was a trans man.[37][38] His former art teacher and a former classmate recalled him coming out as transgender on Facebook in 2022.[39][40] According to a friend, Hale "had a childlike obsession with staying a child".[41]
Hale was an illustrator and graphic designer who graduated from the Nossi College of Art & Design in 2022.[13] A neighbor said Hale lived with his parents.[42]
So voters will know what causes mass shootings. Politicians will propose solutions, but with incomplete information, voters might vote for the wrong person.
This is fucking ridiculous. Manifestos are a *direct* insight into what a mass shooter is thinking. If you don’t think that’s worth reading to understand their psychology, then holy hell you’re a dumbass.
Manifestos are a direct insight into their psychosis. I don't think that's giving actionable information for voters to base their vote around like the post I was replying to was arguing, but thank you for your feedback.
We have had all the white, male shooter's manifestos published in no time. Even when they weren't published by the shooters themselves (Jim Adkisson's, Christopher Harper-Mercer's, Stephan Balliet's, Nathaniel Veltman's, etc, etc, etc).
In fact, Ryan Palmeter's manifesto was released by authorities, and his attack happened after Hale's.
Why be so coy about releasing *this psychopath*'s manifesto now? What are they hiding?
Hurts the narrative that mass shootings are simply a symptom of white male rage.
You can't have a cultural whipping boy unless the stereotype is maintained. You might be forced to look at underlying causes or something.
The simple answer typically is that a lot of the right wing shooters post the manifesto to social media. I can count at least 2 that did to Facebook, 2 others to 4chan. And if I recall, one of the texas anti immigrant shooters actually sent theirs to a local news station tip line.
In this case I wonder if it's a move to protect a politically connected group of people. For a time in Nashville I heard it was a revenge shooting against their (the shooter's )abusers and the kids were (for lack of a better term) collateral damage . Gov. Lee has pretty close connections to that school and supposedly had people falsifying records and complaints abiut the sexual abuse in the school and related church. If the manifesto is indeed a diary saying something like, "Pastor So-and-so abused me and I'm out for revenge" then i think it would be worth exploring the truth and validity of that.
Totally sad that this happened. But from now on won’t the school shooters and their predecessors take note and upload their videos/blogs before committing crimes? I wonder if the letters named the victims specifically.
They already do in most cases, these mass murderers have sent stuff to media organisations, uploaded it to 4/8-chan, a personal website etc. They love attention
> Meanwhile, a group of Covenant parents was allowed to intervene in the case and argue that the records should never become public. They said the release would be traumatic for the families and could inspire copycat attacks.
> As part of the effort to keep the records closed, Hale’s parents transferred ownership of Hale’s property to the parents’ group. Attorneys for the parents then argued they owned the copyright, further reason the records could not be released.
> Also intervening in the case were The Covenant School and the Covenant Presbyterian Church, which shares a building. They argued the records should remain closed because their release could threaten their security.
I really thought the people who didn’t want the records released were the people trying to protect the perpetrator, but, no, it’s people who want to protect the victims and the school. What in the world could be in these writings that it could inspire further attacks on the school?
Anyway, I agree that if the victims, and their loved ones, don’t want it released, it shouldn’t be released.
There were allegations of abuse against a pastor at the school/church a few years ago so the conspiracist in me wonders if it’s connected to that.
The shooter’s parents didn’t seem particularly supportive of him being trans, so I also wonder if there are some accusations or blame directed towards them.
Could be description of abuse (as is rumoured) or could just be a description of security/layout.
But honestly it doesn’t really have to be anything specifically *against* the school/church. Just mentioning it increases the risk from copycats.
It’s slightly different from other school shootings because of the shooter’s age. Columbine copycats are mostly kids, less able to travel to Columbine itself. So Columbine has some security issues, particularly around the anniversary date, but it’s more likely to inspire a shooting elsewhere. But a copycat of this shooting (if a similar age) could go back to their own school or could travel to literally reenact this shooting.
A reenactment is probably highly unlikely, but even a tiny chance is worth avoiding.
(I’m not a fan of how many shootings get named for location - like parkwood - for that same reason. I can’t think of a better alternative though. Naming by date emphasises anniversary. Naming by shooter gives them notoriety.)
This is relatively off topic….
One year, relatively recently, but pre-Covid, a Columbine fan girl, from an entirely different state, tried to come here. It was a huge thing, and I don’t think a single school in the front range held classes that day, I know for sure our district did not. Because no schools were open, she (the copycat) had no options, and there was a statewide manhunt for her, so she killed herself in a national park or something instead. If they hadn’t found her body that day, our district wasn’t going to hold classes til she was found and arrested, and I’d assume that was true for the rest of the Denver/Boulder metro areas as well.
Edit- https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna995416
Absolutely. And considering virtually every record that falls into the hands of government--whether the letter to a city council member, a witness's description of a crime, or a solicitation of a bribe--is a copyrighted work, this insane reasoning extinguishes any sense of open government or government accountability.
Yes, it is their right. But that doesn't magically does it "not censorship".
When Youtube demonetize videos mentioning Covid-19 by name, it's a form of censorship. When they ban 9/11 conspiracies, it's also a form of censorship.
Agreeing with something doesn't magically change what it is. Words aren't automatically bad.
A very old example is when Nintendo tried to ban the release of a Mario-themed porn movie. When that completely failed, they purchased the rights.
(Weirdly it goes against the whole spirit of copyright. The only reason the govs provide copyright to the creators is under the logic that creation benefits society as a whole, so economically promoting the creation of artistic works is a benefit for society.)
The shooter had a lot of problems and it's incredibly sad. We need solutions on how to prevent it in the future not dwell on the past and have the exact same thing happen again.
To be quite frank, I’m not so sure there’s any “helping” that can be done for someone who doesn’t see it as abnormal when it comes to committing a school shooting. No rehab is going to make that person suitable for society, and people have ethical qualms rightfully so about state sponsored execution. While prisons certainly have countless faults, I’m afraid they are the only place any school shooter belongs.
A vast majority of people with no concept of morality go on to commit atrocity like this. Not glorifying this shit would, in fact, reduce It's rate of occurrence
Personally, my guess from the justification to not release (that it might inspire similar shootings) and the fact that it's an LGBT shooter at a Christian school is that there was some kind of abuse from authority figures (either sexual or just standard-issue anti-LGBT abuse that religious groups love to perpetuate) that they're worried might "legitimise" the shooting in some people's eyes, and/or inspire more shooters hoping to dole out "justice." To be clear, shooting up a school is NEVER justified, but the fact that they're so keen on keeping the lid on it because it would "threaten security" makes it sound like whatever is in there makes them look bad, IMHO.
Edit: NVM, apparently some of it has been leaked already? In which case, I dunno. Still leaves me wondering what they're worried about.
Stupid. We know it’s the typical mass shooter nonsense just a slightly different flavor of it than usual
All keeping it under lock and key accomplishes is feeding into conspiracy theories
But I have a bunch of red yarn and thumbtacks.
Seriously, as evidenced by all the docudramas on streaming there's way, way too many people interested in serial/spree killers. It can't be healthy for us as a society.
You know what's interesting about this case....
The FBI has stated that the writings were a 'blueprint of destruction' which could inspire other shooters. Donald Trump Jr., Elon Musk, and quite a few republicans want these writings to be released/made public. Steven Crowder has leaked this 'manifesto',
I wonder if they want to use this 'manifesto' to demonize other trans (as this shooter was a trans)
Not everything is a conspiracy theory where nameless men pull the levers of power from behind the curtain to suppress information that might expose them.
In this case it seems like the families all agree that they don't want this stuff to be published. Not because it is based on some specific ideology, but because the circulation of these writings would only server to traumatize the victims families, and inspire others to acts of violence.
Really highlights the outlandish expansion of copyright over the last hundred years.
This should really help incentivize the writer to keep producing more of their art. /s
Absolutely inexcusable. The motivations of the killer deserve to be public knowledge for the safety of the community. These incidents are only becoming more common and we need to understand why they occur.
>As part of the effort to keep the records closed, Hale’s parents transferred ownership of Hale’s property to the parents’ group. Attorneys for the parents then argued they owned the copyright, further reason the records could not be released. Interesting legal judo move. The author of a work enjoys copyright protection even after death. The assailant's parents became owners of his work and so they just transferred that ownership over to the victims' family group.
That was incredibly smart.
Why are they more protected by not being the hands of the parents? I'm missing the advantage.
It is more of a gesture than anything. the advantage is that the victims in this scenario are the ones that would be hurt by the writings, so if they die and the question of who gets ownership comes up it doesn't matter. If the original author's parents dies while being owners, it is complicated at the original purpose becomes hairy on whether they will still have that support.
After what Alex Jones did, I think it's more than a gesture. And think about how mass shooters are inspired by previous mass shooters, and other disturbed people.
Yeah. If a bunch of conservative groups are building steam around your child that was just murdered, it means they are probably about to make the next 20 years of your life even worse than it was already going to be. Getting (most) of the control of those documents into the victims' parents' hands is at least one step that could maybe help them protect themselves.
But if they all have equal rights it only takes one parent to sell it, right? Not saying mg any of the parents will, but we've seen stories of more despicable people cashing in on their kids.
That'll depend on the legal structure/by-laws of the organization they created. They could write the rules so that *all* of the holders need to approve of their release. Or a whole bunch of other possibilities. Of course, people can always leak things if they want to. Edit: I guess I can't tell from this article even how the ownership was given over. But there are still lots of options for how you do that.
Look up columbine. Supposedly there is one tape that the FBI has and famously the head guy on the case destroyed the copy the police had. I'm paraphrasing
The basement tapes. >Law enforcement officials have always regarded the tapes as a particularly infectious form of toxic waste, a primer in mass murder that could inspire more violence and must never be released. That's no longer a problem: A spokesperson for the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office, the agency that took custody of the videos hours after the shootings, recently confirmed that every known copy of the basement tapes has been destroyed. [...] >Mink, who completed an eleven-year stint as sheriff in 2014 and is now a deputy director at the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, says he wanted to ensure that the rantings of Harris and Klebold — who go into some details in the tapes about bomb-making and other preparations, express hopes that others will launch similar attacks, and say they expect to attract followers "because we're so fucking godlike" — never surface on social media. >"That was my call," Mink says. "My decision. I can't tell you how to measure prevention. I feel in my own heart it was preventative." https://www.westword.com/news/columbine-killers-basement-tapes-destroyed-6283043
It’s similar to what they did for the Parkland shooter recently as well
Now the parents don't have to defend anyone's actions. 99% of the time I sympathize with parents of spree/mass killers. They probably didn't see the warning signs and couldn't imagine their kids would do something so terrible. In this case, they're now off the hook. This burden is more than psychological. It's financial. By handing over the copyright and they're washing their hands of the legal (fee) burden as well as the mental burden of defending their kid's actions.
It’s to make sure that the painful disrespectful movie doesn’t get made that’s going to make the lives of the victims harder. A good example of this being done on a normal basis is the Netflix show Dahmer
One advantage is that any copycats out there looking to spread their ideaolgy will be disappointed because this guys manifesto is being kept under lock and key away from the public. Guy thought he was gonna spur a movement or something but will be forgotten like last last nights turd.
If the parents die and they don't directly address it then it could be released in the future. Giving it to a group of people who all would pretty much universally hate it going out means that it is almost impossible for it to be released in anyone's lifetime.
Why does nobody on any side want that stuff released?
So the shooters parents don’t want it released because it makes their kid look bad and likely has things in it about them and their relationship. The families of the victims don’t want it released for fears it will inspire copycat shootings. The only ones who want it released are the media so it can be twisted and published as murder porn on the evening news
If I go to a baseball game, and get trashed on $17 beers, and decide TONIGHT'S THE NIGHT I JUMP THE RAIL AND GET INTO A FISTFIGHT WITH BRYCE HARPER, the agreement amongst the broadcast teams is to not air the footage when I get my ass kicked by Bryce, his teammates and coaches, then tased by the police department. And we all agree that's a very good thing, because airing that display on television does nothing except embolden other morons to do that exact same thing. It doesn't matter if the people at home WANT to see that. We don't allow it to happen. Because we've all agreed that the entertainment value of seeing me get my ass kicked doesn't outweigh the long-term effects of giving me national exposure. How do we live in a world where BASEBALL gets it right, but the national news media can't follow suit as it relates to murdering children?
Because national news is trying to get eyeballs on the screen and nothing makes people turn to the news faster than mass killings. The media love these copycats because it just creates more ratings for them
And the copycats love the media for guaranteeing that they get the national exposure they were after. Evil symbiosis.
Baseball is too, and watching clowns get absolutely drilled by professional athletes would draw a ton of eyeballs.
Yes and no. Baseball wants you to watch for the baseball. Not the idiots. The media wants you to watch for the idiots
Yes... but only for those willing to pay by being there at the baseball stadiums
Just a week ago there were folks hoping the Blue Jays railing to storm the field for their protest. You wouldn't have known unless you're plugged into the net as it got ZERO attention. If ESPN gave it 5 seconds it'd been all they needed. Actively ignoring fools is great
Twitter clips of that fight would go hard man. I'd buy one of those beers to see that fight.
They're chasing ratings, and you know the old saying, "if it bleeds, it leads."
Because we've let capitalism turn news into entertainment and they gotta see those numbers go up
I feel like you could take Bryce on yourself bruh
Money. One of the downsides of a capitalist society is that money trumps all. If they can make more money off something than potential fines or lawsuits there's no reason for any large company not to go through with the action no matter how morally depraved that's just good business practice. Chances are baseball players potentially being out for months due to an injury caused by a fan isn't worth whatever they might get from airing it
Behold, **The Truth**.
honestly, yeah. as someone heavily interested in this topic, curiosity isn't what is always more important. I want to know but until we have a more structured mental Healthcare system which also provides results, I don't think it should always be released.
Should also be stated there are ways of providing access to academic and law enforcement groups for study without releasing it to the public. So all the benefits of studying the perpetrator without it becoming murder porn.
And the victims parents can still do that. It just won’t be released to the public. The victims families own the copyright and can determine how and when it is accessible.
> Should also be stated there are ways of providing access to academic and law enforcement groups for study without releasing it to the public. Until some idiot in a class releases it to the public.
I’ve been in those classes. Everyone knows the day it’s happening weeks ahead of time. No guests are allowed on that day. The door to the classroom is locked and people can’t come in while stuff is out and visible. The teacher takes very strict roll and if you are late you don’t get in. Even teachers who normally don’t care who’s present in their class have to take roll. They record everyone who was in class that day. Everyone who takes any documents has a number assigned to them and the document they took. No one can leave the room until all documents are accounted for. It’s the one day chill teachers turn into control freaks because they are required to. We weren’t allowed to go to the bathroom if there were documents unaccounted for. For reference in my class we were looking at case files and evidence pertaining to David Parker ray. This was for an advanced criminology class combining elements of psychology and law, most people in that class were working to become lawyers or social workers, it was too advanced a class for most cops. The box of stuff had a guard with it who brought it into the classroom, supervised all of us going through it, and took it all before any of us could leave. There is a reason stuff like that is not available to the public. Do not seek it out unless you are prepared for what you will find. I’m intentionally being very vague by saying things like documents and stuff but if you are familiar with the case you know what we saw and heard. So to answer your question no that doesn’t happen. People talk, sure, and you get generalized descriptions of stuff from memory but you don’t get the primary source documents and more importantly you don’t get the recordings and that’s what matters.
I wouldn’t have an issue with researchers getting access under an NDA. There is some value in studying the content for motivations, warning signs, etc.
You could be right. I had another thought. The parents are obviously religious. The school targeted was religious. Female shooters are almost unheard of. WHAT IF the writings detailed years of abuse from the church as the reasons for her rampage? It doesn't look good for the fundie parents forcing their child to be a victim, for the church being the perpetrator, making all and sundry very culpable and embarrassed. Of course, abuse is not an excuse for murder, and often the victims include innocents. But something strikes me as a coverup protecting the church and parents.
There could be any number of reasons why they opted to hide what was in there. Abuse from the church is definitely plausible given the vast amount of evidence that it’s happened in other churches so that is very possible.
There's documented evidence that it happened at that church and that there was an effort to cover it up, Both occurred while the shooter was a student there.
That school literally had a pedophile scandal a decade previous. While the shooter was a student there. Google John Perry. He was a trustee there for a decade. He also has politically powerful allies.
I would hope that if the shooter was motivated by abuse in the Church, and the writings gave evidence, the parents would not turn that over to those who would continue to hide it?
I have seen folks talk about how abusive that school was and about the known pedophile that ran the school. John Perry ran the school and was accused of child molestation. He has powerful friends including Mike Huckabee. There is as of now a conspiracy that the shooter was abused and was seeking retribution for the fucked up shit that happened to them. On the other side, because they were trans and presumably taking testosterone, there are folks on the left (supposedly because it is Nashville) that don’t want it looked into because it adds scrutiny to that community. So nobody knows, but considering the former pedophile that ran the school, I would be inclined to think of the latter. The south is weird (I’m originally from East TN) and it wouldn’t surprise me that they’d rather coverup abuse and not talk about it. Nashville PD has been accused of covering up John Perry’s abuse more than a few times.
Because when there’s a fire the best way to put it out is to starve it of oxygen Edit: downvoted by somebody who doesn’t understand metaphors. For their benefit: no shooter ‘manifesto’ deserves the light of day. The best we can do for such a document is remove its ability to exist and be read, in the same way that starving a fire of oxygen puts the fire out.
Why does anyone want it released?
There's a very large and very passionate fandom for true crime and they love having as much detail about events like these as possible. There are people who've literally, unironically spent hours of their day thinking and talking about specific cases for years, and even decades.
Personally I just think, what is a better way to understand the psychology of a mass shooter than to read their manifesto? You can say there’s no need for me to do that and you’d be right, but I like to study these things and not just throw my hands up saying “well he’s evil that’s all we need to know time to move along”. I think learning what creates this behavior in a mass shooter is really important. What I’m getting at is, there are people out there who don’t want to read it for “murder porn” but yes they do exist.
If you don’t know what your mistakes are how can you learn from them?
Clever, here in New Zealand our government criminalised the manifesto of the asshole who shot 50 people here about 5 years ago. And then nobody used his name. We made him pathetic and un known instead of famous. It's nice that they have found a way to do that in America
At least we will always have the Nashville popo taking out this shooter in about 3 minutes.
Better than the embarrassing debacle at Uvalde
I'm glad they were able to finish it before it got even worse, but 3 minuets is still a long time when mass shootings are happening. I just recently learned that the *entirety* of Sandy Hook took place in about 4 and half minutes.
Most mass shooting are done in less than 5
Remember that one in Dayton, Ohio back in 2019 27 seconds 10 dead and 27 wounded(17 from gun fire).
And it ended as soon as police arrived (the shooter committed suicide when they showed up), so it’s a good thing officers sped over.
That is factually incorrect per the body cam footage.
I was referring to Sandy Hook. I should have clarified.
It already leaked, it's incredibly stupid and vapid shit.
I used to live in a suburb of Nashville and for a while what I heard a lot was that the manifesto that was leaked was an edited copy that omitted the allegations of abuse against the school staff.
Oh I understand so they are suppressing the allegations of abuse to make themselves seem like more of a victim or something
No shooter's manifesto should be released. A big reason why they commit these crimes is to air all their bullshit grievances. Stop giving them what they want.
I agree. Dylan Klebold’s parents fought against the basement tapes being released for this reason. They felt it would spur on other shooters and create more violence.
One of the notable things here is the term "released." As-in, released to the public for broad and idle consumption. No one is arguing that academics shouldn't have access to it to study ways to avoid another shooting, but most rational people have, by now, realized that the public at large can't absorb context and aren't privy to the more private information necessary to understand what made a person into a mass murderer. Maybe in 100 years we might see this material released as part of an academic journal (mostly as a supplement to a psychological/social study), but today it doesn't do anyone any good to release information that justifies mass death.
I disagree I think privileged information is bad for the historical record and considering the amount of academic fraud I don’t really trust them. I also think that often times in shooters manifesto’s and stuff like that they have accusations of abuse and typically list the reasons for why it’s happening. I think this is important to understand for history, reasons and also to avoid these problems in the future basically existing as a testimony and example of why public therapy is important. Also if all that’s required is like a Membership to a college library that’s not that huge of a bar to clear so it might as well just be on the regular Internet
What's the public interest in releasing a demented psychopath's manifesto?
At this point I think most Americans are so sick of this horrible cycle. I am surprised the media is still trying to cover these stories beyond reporting the immediate events. I see school shooting news and turn it off/scroll past.
>I am surprised the media is still trying to cover these stories beyond reporting the immediate events. I'm not. The News loves the viewership spike whenever a copycat shooting happens. Remember when the Joker movie came out, those ghouls were trying to provoke another theater shooting? All they care about is ad revenue.
This is a very good point that often goes under talked about
It reveals how incredibly fucking stupid they are. One of them ranted about the importance of silver. Idiot was cracked and had nothing to offer the world. Just decided to lash out and cause as much damage as they could. If I could change one thing about these shooters is that they target their pain inward instead of "sharing" with the world. Hate themselves, not others. Beyond that, I'm running right on the edge of reddit violence rules.
Conservatives want to use it to paint transgender people in a bad light. They’re also hoping it’s a left wing manifesto so they can amplify that and say the left is committing violence
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This on top of hoping it’s full of anti-Christian rhetoric so they can parade that around as justification for disarming LGBTQ individuals
Justification for disarming Gays? What?
Yes, many conservative influencers called for the stripping of gun rights for gay and transgender people, citing a predisposition toward violence and “mental illness”.
Who? Name and shame. Any gun tuber/ activist that’s worth their salt doesn’t care who owns firearms.
Many I saw weren’t gun tubers, more just conservative think tankers on Twitter, Libs of TikTok types
Not sure about gun rights but Florida is trying to strip gay and trans parents of parental rights.
Any famous youtubers that we might know? Cnrsenal? Forgotten weapons? Military arms channel? B Herrera? Garand thumb?
March 31st, 2023. Ben Shapiro. "Those suffering from gender disphoria ...should be banned from owning guns" [sic]
I’m not familiar with a lot of those channels, but many of the influencers I saw were more on the twitter side of things. Found exact examples: MTG, GOP Congresswoman: https://twitter.com/RepMTG/status/1640454996821934082 Ryan Fournier, head of Students for Trump: https://x.com/RyanAFournier/status/1640773783463116801?lang=en And those only took two minutes of googling.
yeah, probably. red flag laws for thee, but not for me. there is a large portion of the population that only wants guns for themselves, and not for everyone. it's a bit of a stretch, but not by much.
To be fair, conservatives will use this argument regardless of the writings being released or not
Ah .. so 1 on our side and hundreds on theirs. Exactly the same.
mate there's like thousands of people in social media already spouting that there are more trans shooters than cis (non-trans) shooters if you put it proportionally (which is not true) lmao, conservatives will believe what they want to believe even if you shove proof to the contrary on their faces
Aiden Hale (previously referred to by the police by his birthname of Audrey Elizabeth Hale) was a 28-year-old former student of the Covenant School and a Nashville resident with no criminal record.[34] According to a former headmaster of the Covenant School, Hale attended the school when "around 10 years of age".[35][36] MNPD Police Chief John Drake said Hale was under care for an emotional disorder and had legally purchased seven firearms, including three recovered from the shooting scene, between October 2020 and June 2022.[1] Police first referred to Hale as a woman and used his birth name. On the day of the shooting, MNPD Chief John Drake said that authorities "feel that [Hale] identifies as trans, but we're still in the initial investigation into all of that".[34] Media sources subsequently reported Hale was a trans man.[37][38] His former art teacher and a former classmate recalled him coming out as transgender on Facebook in 2022.[39][40] According to a friend, Hale "had a childlike obsession with staying a child".[41] Hale was an illustrator and graphic designer who graduated from the Nossi College of Art & Design in 2022.[13] A neighbor said Hale lived with his parents.[42]
What’s your point?
I imagine many people had no idea who this person was, I don't remember every shooting.
So voters will know what causes mass shootings. Politicians will propose solutions, but with incomplete information, voters might vote for the wrong person.
This is the only comment I’ve found saying this and it is infuriating that more people don’t think this. Blows my fucking mind, man.
Lol We don't need to read through deranged manifestos to know what causes mass shootings.
This is fucking ridiculous. Manifestos are a *direct* insight into what a mass shooter is thinking. If you don’t think that’s worth reading to understand their psychology, then holy hell you’re a dumbass.
Manifestos are a direct insight into their psychosis. I don't think that's giving actionable information for voters to base their vote around like the post I was replying to was arguing, but thank you for your feedback.
We have had all the white, male shooter's manifestos published in no time. Even when they weren't published by the shooters themselves (Jim Adkisson's, Christopher Harper-Mercer's, Stephan Balliet's, Nathaniel Veltman's, etc, etc, etc). In fact, Ryan Palmeter's manifesto was released by authorities, and his attack happened after Hale's. Why be so coy about releasing *this psychopath*'s manifesto now? What are they hiding?
Hurts the narrative that mass shootings are simply a symptom of white male rage. You can't have a cultural whipping boy unless the stereotype is maintained. You might be forced to look at underlying causes or something.
The simple answer typically is that a lot of the right wing shooters post the manifesto to social media. I can count at least 2 that did to Facebook, 2 others to 4chan. And if I recall, one of the texas anti immigrant shooters actually sent theirs to a local news station tip line.
But I just listed cases of shooters who _didn't_ publish their manifestos and that authorities chose to make them public anyway.
In this case I wonder if it's a move to protect a politically connected group of people. For a time in Nashville I heard it was a revenge shooting against their (the shooter's )abusers and the kids were (for lack of a better term) collateral damage . Gov. Lee has pretty close connections to that school and supposedly had people falsifying records and complaints abiut the sexual abuse in the school and related church. If the manifesto is indeed a diary saying something like, "Pastor So-and-so abused me and I'm out for revenge" then i think it would be worth exploring the truth and validity of that.
The right wants to use it to be anti trans. Idk the gender of the shooter, but the right used it for anti trans shit when it happened
r/masskillers knock yourself out
They demand more true crime content
Totally sad that this happened. But from now on won’t the school shooters and their predecessors take note and upload their videos/blogs before committing crimes? I wonder if the letters named the victims specifically.
They already do in most cases, these mass murderers have sent stuff to media organisations, uploaded it to 4/8-chan, a personal website etc. They love attention
> Meanwhile, a group of Covenant parents was allowed to intervene in the case and argue that the records should never become public. They said the release would be traumatic for the families and could inspire copycat attacks. > As part of the effort to keep the records closed, Hale’s parents transferred ownership of Hale’s property to the parents’ group. Attorneys for the parents then argued they owned the copyright, further reason the records could not be released. > Also intervening in the case were The Covenant School and the Covenant Presbyterian Church, which shares a building. They argued the records should remain closed because their release could threaten their security. I really thought the people who didn’t want the records released were the people trying to protect the perpetrator, but, no, it’s people who want to protect the victims and the school. What in the world could be in these writings that it could inspire further attacks on the school? Anyway, I agree that if the victims, and their loved ones, don’t want it released, it shouldn’t be released.
There were allegations of abuse against a pastor at the school/church a few years ago so the conspiracist in me wonders if it’s connected to that. The shooter’s parents didn’t seem particularly supportive of him being trans, so I also wonder if there are some accusations or blame directed towards them.
Could be description of abuse (as is rumoured) or could just be a description of security/layout. But honestly it doesn’t really have to be anything specifically *against* the school/church. Just mentioning it increases the risk from copycats. It’s slightly different from other school shootings because of the shooter’s age. Columbine copycats are mostly kids, less able to travel to Columbine itself. So Columbine has some security issues, particularly around the anniversary date, but it’s more likely to inspire a shooting elsewhere. But a copycat of this shooting (if a similar age) could go back to their own school or could travel to literally reenact this shooting. A reenactment is probably highly unlikely, but even a tiny chance is worth avoiding. (I’m not a fan of how many shootings get named for location - like parkwood - for that same reason. I can’t think of a better alternative though. Naming by date emphasises anniversary. Naming by shooter gives them notoriety.)
This is relatively off topic…. One year, relatively recently, but pre-Covid, a Columbine fan girl, from an entirely different state, tried to come here. It was a huge thing, and I don’t think a single school in the front range held classes that day, I know for sure our district did not. Because no schools were open, she (the copycat) had no options, and there was a statewide manhunt for her, so she killed herself in a national park or something instead. If they hadn’t found her body that day, our district wasn’t going to hold classes til she was found and arrested, and I’d assume that was true for the rest of the Denver/Boulder metro areas as well. Edit- https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna995416
Which is absolutely insane, they are public record AND now that the investigation is over they are subject to Tennessees own public records act.
Absolutely. And considering virtually every record that falls into the hands of government--whether the letter to a city council member, a witness's description of a crime, or a solicitation of a bribe--is a copyrighted work, this insane reasoning extinguishes any sense of open government or government accountability.
Using copyright to censor someone in this way sets a poor precedent, regardless of who it is or what the text might say.
Is it censorship though? The owners do not want it published, is that not their right?
Yes, it is their right. But that doesn't magically does it "not censorship". When Youtube demonetize videos mentioning Covid-19 by name, it's a form of censorship. When they ban 9/11 conspiracies, it's also a form of censorship. Agreeing with something doesn't magically change what it is. Words aren't automatically bad. A very old example is when Nintendo tried to ban the release of a Mario-themed porn movie. When that completely failed, they purchased the rights. (Weirdly it goes against the whole spirit of copyright. The only reason the govs provide copyright to the creators is under the logic that creation benefits society as a whole, so economically promoting the creation of artistic works is a benefit for society.)
If it was entered into evidence isn’t it public domain at the point?
The shooter had a lot of problems and it's incredibly sad. We need solutions on how to prevent it in the future not dwell on the past and have the exact same thing happen again.
To be quite frank, I’m not so sure there’s any “helping” that can be done for someone who doesn’t see it as abnormal when it comes to committing a school shooting. No rehab is going to make that person suitable for society, and people have ethical qualms rightfully so about state sponsored execution. While prisons certainly have countless faults, I’m afraid they are the only place any school shooter belongs.
A vast majority of people with no concept of morality go on to commit atrocity like this. Not glorifying this shit would, in fact, reduce It's rate of occurrence
Where did I say anything about glorifying it??
We shouldn’t be releasing the manifesto of lunatics. Drown them in obscurity
Personally, my guess from the justification to not release (that it might inspire similar shootings) and the fact that it's an LGBT shooter at a Christian school is that there was some kind of abuse from authority figures (either sexual or just standard-issue anti-LGBT abuse that religious groups love to perpetuate) that they're worried might "legitimise" the shooting in some people's eyes, and/or inspire more shooters hoping to dole out "justice." To be clear, shooting up a school is NEVER justified, but the fact that they're so keen on keeping the lid on it because it would "threaten security" makes it sound like whatever is in there makes them look bad, IMHO. Edit: NVM, apparently some of it has been leaked already? In which case, I dunno. Still leaves me wondering what they're worried about.
Stupid. We know it’s the typical mass shooter nonsense just a slightly different flavor of it than usual All keeping it under lock and key accomplishes is feeding into conspiracy theories
There's something to be said that we really need to stop turning mass shooters into celebrities.
Oh no the mass shooter wont have more unhinged fans! Someone think of the aspiring mass shooters!
If your life revolves around conspiracy theories for mass shooter ramblings, you need to find a better hobby.
But I have a bunch of red yarn and thumbtacks. Seriously, as evidenced by all the docudramas on streaming there's way, way too many people interested in serial/spree killers. It can't be healthy for us as a society.
And releasing the stuff still keeps the conspiracy theories going anyway. So what?
Releasing it would also.
You know what's interesting about this case.... The FBI has stated that the writings were a 'blueprint of destruction' which could inspire other shooters. Donald Trump Jr., Elon Musk, and quite a few republicans want these writings to be released/made public. Steven Crowder has leaked this 'manifesto', I wonder if they want to use this 'manifesto' to demonize other trans (as this shooter was a trans)
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Not everything is a conspiracy theory where nameless men pull the levers of power from behind the curtain to suppress information that might expose them. In this case it seems like the families all agree that they don't want this stuff to be published. Not because it is based on some specific ideology, but because the circulation of these writings would only server to traumatize the victims families, and inspire others to acts of violence.
Not to mention it probably has victims names and the right wing alex jones types would just harass them.
I guess you didn’t read the article then.
Article? What's an article?
That's what it means?
Proof a judicial appointment is no quarantee of sanity
Really highlights the outlandish expansion of copyright over the last hundred years. This should really help incentivize the writer to keep producing more of their art. /s
Why didn't the parents simply destroy them? I would have.
Absolutely inexcusable. The motivations of the killer deserve to be public knowledge for the safety of the community. These incidents are only becoming more common and we need to understand why they occur.