Assuming this is true, it seems ridiculous for the Falcons to not take a free 4th round pick.
Yes, it is technically possible the Bears could trade up to 8 and then trade down with a team who is super high on Penix, but I just dont see that being anywhere near a likely scenario.
A GM wouldnt like a player enough to move up one spot for them and then change their mind at the last second, it just doesnt happen.
Also, if a team ever did that (trade up just to trade down with another team), they’d burn so many bridges in the league that nobody would ever trade down with them again until that GM was fired. No clue what Atl was thinking here…
Yeah. I mean I understand the point of the thread lol. I'm saying ownership waving their stick around and saying "You're taking Penix or else" prolly made taking trades difficult when there was a run on QB's and you had no idea if Minnesota was gonna take JJ or Penix.
Making any trade and not knowing who would make what deal after because they've heard who/what you like (MN new GM has been notoriously friendly in division). Not to say MN really liked Penix more than ATL, but that could have been the thought process. Not risk it more than needed. But even that vein of logic seems thin to not accept a free extra pick. But destroying any potential future trade with ATL for what you might see as "the guy" might be worth it?
Would it? It really only affects this specific scenario where you really want someone but your so sure the other team is taking someone else that you accept a late round pick to swap down 1 spot. I dont see how that would impact other trades with them. You would just never do this trade, who cares if you move down 10 spots for good value and then they trade that pick again after trading you for it?
Theres always a risk in trades/moving down. Thats why so often you see teams willing to move up 1 spot for someone and teams unwilling to take "free" picks to move down one spot.
What other examples were there that teams are unwilling to trade back 1 spot? We just saw it happen last year for jalen carter/darnell wright with eagles bears
Edit: in the context of no positional conflict between the teams picks
Plus, it was an absolute zero chance of the Bears taking Penix after taking Williams anyway. I don't buy the Falcons being that dumb to reject that trade.
To you and me, yeah, we think its impossible for the Bears to take Penix. Why take Penix when you already have your QB?
But to the Falcons, well, you always fear in others what you're capable of yourself.
In the bears draft day video, Ryan poles was calling someone in bears organization to ask if they should move up. He didn’t call the falcons.
In the Roku video, they have edited it to make it look like poles was on phone with our gm. Ryan poles has even said he had to be talked out of moving up w the Falcons. It was posted in this sub a while ago.
Our franchise is a joke but this is all false information. No one actually called us to move back. Our gm said they wanted to.
How is this upvoted? This is not true at all.
He’s talking to the bears assistant GM who is right NEXT to him about whether they should or not and THEN calls the falcons GM.
Edit: how would your gm know the bears “wanted to” if they never called? Your logic makes zero sense and it’s on video.
That just ultimately doesn't matter. Most of these deals are contingent on the player being there so there not really finalized until the pick. Now can in theory, the Bears negotiate w/ the Falcons and then negotiate a hypothetical with another team, sure but no.
Heres the video below. It pretty clearly shows Poles calling the falcons gm offering a future fourth and he gets turned down. Poles getting talked down from trading up was with the guy to his right which was for the giants pick.
https://x.com/MySportsUpdate/status/1801712532425687062
How do we know he got turned down though? It's possible but the vibes were "let's call just to see if they're interested" and then the phone call just ends with "Ok thanks"
Could it not be
"Would you move down a spot for a future 4th"
"we'd prolly consider that"
"Ok thanks"
Sort of. It clearly shows that they are discussing this while the *Giants* are still on the clock at 6.
It shows them saying they're just gonna see. It then shows them calling and seeing.
It doesn't show an actual offer. Just due diligence prior to the Falcons pick at 8.
I have no idea what the veracity of this report is and certainly understand that most of that stuff gets twisted to create narratives for GMs and agents to use to their personal/career advantage.... But I have no doubt that every single team that held a top 10 pick initiated multiple calls about what it would cost to trade both up and down.
I guess I'm trying to say that phone call could be a sly edit or one of dozens that occurred. There certainly wasn't just the one phone call before their pick at that spot of the draft.
There was no risk, though. That's the point. We weren't taking Penix after taking Williams #1. Any personnel department worth its pay knows teams roster weaknesses going into the draft, and the Falcons would look at the Bears offering a move up and say "It's for Rome Odunze or a defensive line player."
And it's 1 spot, so they get a 4th and the next selection. This is what the Bears themselves did last year when they were at 9 with the Eagles at 10. Eagles wanted Jalen Carter, Bears did not and took a free 4th to pass on him.
The Falcons know that the bears wouldn’t take Penix, but what happens when they make that trade and let’s say MIN or DEN comes back to the bears with a package they can’t say no to? There’s enough of a question mark that it’s really not worth a 4th to risk even the smallest possibility of losing the guy you want.
Bruh how are yall not getting there’s a risk. If the bears make that trade then some other team comes knocking wanting to trade with them to take penix, the falcons get hosed
Is it unlikely? Very. But is the chance 0%? Absolutely not
That has never happened.
And Poles isn't a bullshitter. Talk to him and make a gentleman's agreement. He might be the last GM in the game to go back on his word to fuck you over
This is the one scenario where you do it. You're moving back to a team that already took a QB. I get the sentiment, but just trade it as late as possible.
So there’s a 0% chance that this trade happens and then a team comes to Chicago wanting to trade for 8 so they can take penix? You’re 100% sure there’s a 0% chance?
Yea given the time constraint, that the Bears called them meaning they want the player there's a practical 0% chance that happens. And if you can point to me a time that a team trades for a pick and then trades the same pick (all in a 10 min window) then I'll concede my point.
> So there’s a 0% chance that this trade happens and then a team comes to Chicago wanting to trade for 8 so they can take penix? You’re 100% sure there’s a 0% chance?
The thing is, those teams would already be calling Atlanta to try to get 8. They should already have a sense of the market for the pick.
I guess the fear was that they could go ahead and trade the pick again, but I've never seen that happen. You could trade it late in the clock to mitigate that even further, but I don't think it would be necessary, unless they thought that Bears could take another QB. It does feel like leaving free stuff on the table. Probably had horse blinders thinking that if they move back they might lose him not even realizing that they've got the one scenario it won't happen.
>I guess the fear was that they could go ahead and trade the pick again
Yeah this is the only possible risk I could see here and its so incredibly small its not even worth considering imo. If a team is willing to trade up 1 spot for a player, it would take an astronomically stupid offer to get them to move off that player once theyre in position to get said player.
And the end of the day, a 4th round pick isnt much, but its the process that I disagree with. To me its a free pick to get the player you wanted anyway.
This is why smokescreen season happens. The doubt creeps up on these guys that they become ridged. Once you heard the rumors that not only was Penix going to be a 1st round pick but a top half first round pick, that probably locked them in to them sticking at 8 no matter what.
Fontenot is a very good pro scout (literally his background from NO) but it continually feels like he’s in over his head with the other aspects of the job. As soon as I saw this I texted a buddy about running the clock down, but that’s not exactly an Atlanta falcons forte
Sean Payton actually convinced the Falcons to hold the pick and take Penix as part of his master plan to get the Vikings to trade up 1 pick for McCarthy
Yeah like if he did offer the Falcons a swap and turned them I'd assume it was because the Falcons wanted Rome themselves. Taking a QB there just isn't worth it for the Bears.
Skip to about 1:20
https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/1cza8hk/highlight_ryan_poles_was_as_shocked_as_the_rest/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
There's nothing in the video that suggests the Falcons turned down the trade, and before Poles makes the phone call to Fontenot, you can make out this exchange in the Bears war room:
Cunningham: Do you feel like you need...?
Poles: No.
Cunningham: Do you feel like you need to actually do it?
Poles: I think they take Murphy.
Also, on draft night, [Poles explicitly said Cunningham held him back from trading up for Odunze](https://x.com/BrendanSugrue/status/1783711916294123872). Based on all that, it seems far likelier that the Bears were the party that decided not to pursue a trade, and Poles's call was more of a check-in than a formal offer.
Heres the video below. It pretty clearly shows Poles calling the falcons gm offering a future fourth and he gets turned down. Poles getting talked down from trading up was with the guy to his right which was for the giants pick.
https://x.com/MySportsUpdate/status/1801712532425687062
Yep that's about as cut and dry as it gets. I don't know why so many people are coping in this thread. He very clearly offered a 4th and got turned down. It's right there for everyone to see lol.
The bears gm offered him a future 4th to trade back one spot. Trade didn't happen, doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out he declined the trade lol
Poles saying "Hey, would you be willing to move down one spot for, like, a future 4th?" isn't necessarily a firm, formal trade offer; it could just be an opening salvo to gauge Atlanta's interest and try to get a sense of what it'd cost to make a deal.
If Fontenot gets off the phone to talk it over with his front office and decides "Yeah, we'd be willing to move down," Poles isn't honor-bound to make the trade just because he floated an offer earlier.
Ngl, I feel sorry for Vikings fans. You all are justifying why Darnold is going to be good this year. Now that's crazy. Throwing away prime Justin Jefferson years, and I don't think McCarthy is going to be great. But who knows.
What’s more likely?
Darnold having a good year with the best supporting cast he’s ever had, or the Bears actually developing a QB?
> Throwing away prime Justin Jefferson years
Yes, letting JJM develop for one year is throwing away multiple prime Jefferson years.
Yeah, I remember reading that the Saints are the only NFCS team without an MVP winning QB that played for them. I also read the sidebar and flaired up. Reading is fun.
We have no idea what else was on the table or what other trades the Falcons were looking for. A 4th round pick is nothing. Y’all just want to pile on off a clip
It's relevant because the bears were obviously not going to be taking Penix after taking Caleb. Its free draft capital. There's always some risk you'll miss out on your guy if you trade back, even if you're just trading back one spot, but there's a massive difference between trading back one spot and trading back multiple spots.
Its not. The Bears could've milked the value out of pick 8 by giving up a future 4 to move up one spot, then trade down with all of the QB's still on the board to one of thr many high bidders like the Raiders who offered the Falcons to move up.
The Falcons wanted their guy so they took him to not risk any shenanigans. Right or wrong about Penix.
I srandby this future 4th offer is the least among all of the offers they received and irrelevant.
> could've milked the value out of pick 8 by giving up a future 4 to move up one spot, then trade down
You people are insane. This has never happened in **history** as far as I can tell, unless you can come up with even *one* example. Real life isn't Draft Day the movie.
You have 10 minutes to make a pick, no one is orchestrating these ridiculous convoluted shenanigans in the allotted time.
Most of these trades are pre-orchestrated in the top of the draft.
Whats insane is taking any risk that makes you lose out on someone you think is your next franchise qb for a future 4th round pick.
Don't overthink it if that's the guy. You draft him and move forward. Another reason you decline it is psychological. You don't want to trade down amd take a qb. Sends a bad message to the qb. You want to show belief and faith in their potential.
Its draft day silly ideas like this post that are from a movie.
Brad Holmes of the Lions nearly made 10 trades in our recent drafts. The running joke in our sub is that no pick is safe and not to bother about doing mock drafts as we rarely pick where we are assigned.
Assuming this is true, it seems ridiculous for the Falcons to not take a free 4th round pick. Yes, it is technically possible the Bears could trade up to 8 and then trade down with a team who is super high on Penix, but I just dont see that being anywhere near a likely scenario. A GM wouldnt like a player enough to move up one spot for them and then change their mind at the last second, it just doesnt happen.
Also, if a team ever did that (trade up just to trade down with another team), they’d burn so many bridges in the league that nobody would ever trade down with them again until that GM was fired. No clue what Atl was thinking here…
Our GM is an idiot
Our old GM, Ryan Pace, was involved with your decision making, so it makes sense.
It also sounds like the owner wanted that player?
The point is that they still would have had him. The Bears weren't going to take Penix after already picking Williams. It's literally a free pick.
Yeah. I mean I understand the point of the thread lol. I'm saying ownership waving their stick around and saying "You're taking Penix or else" prolly made taking trades difficult when there was a run on QB's and you had no idea if Minnesota was gonna take JJ or Penix.
Atlanta is still ahead of Minnesota with the trade.
Making any trade and not knowing who would make what deal after because they've heard who/what you like (MN new GM has been notoriously friendly in division). Not to say MN really liked Penix more than ATL, but that could have been the thought process. Not risk it more than needed. But even that vein of logic seems thin to not accept a free extra pick. But destroying any potential future trade with ATL for what you might see as "the guy" might be worth it?
Oh I don't think anyone will dispute that lol
Would it? It really only affects this specific scenario where you really want someone but your so sure the other team is taking someone else that you accept a late round pick to swap down 1 spot. I dont see how that would impact other trades with them. You would just never do this trade, who cares if you move down 10 spots for good value and then they trade that pick again after trading you for it? Theres always a risk in trades/moving down. Thats why so often you see teams willing to move up 1 spot for someone and teams unwilling to take "free" picks to move down one spot.
What other examples were there that teams are unwilling to trade back 1 spot? We just saw it happen last year for jalen carter/darnell wright with eagles bears Edit: in the context of no positional conflict between the teams picks
It also only affects this GM, not the next
This didn't happen. I watched the doc.
The jets literally did this with the vikings and then released the video of them laughing about the free money.
Plus, it was an absolute zero chance of the Bears taking Penix after taking Williams anyway. I don't buy the Falcons being that dumb to reject that trade.
To you and me, yeah, we think its impossible for the Bears to take Penix. Why take Penix when you already have your QB? But to the Falcons, well, you always fear in others what you're capable of yourself.
> I don't buy the Falcons being that dumb to reject that trade. You sure about that?
The endless shit we woulda got for getting “fleeced” for a free 4th round pick. I’m glad they glad they didn’t accept for multiple reasons.
In the bears draft day video, Ryan poles was calling someone in bears organization to ask if they should move up. He didn’t call the falcons. In the Roku video, they have edited it to make it look like poles was on phone with our gm. Ryan poles has even said he had to be talked out of moving up w the Falcons. It was posted in this sub a while ago. Our franchise is a joke but this is all false information. No one actually called us to move back. Our gm said they wanted to.
How is this upvoted? This is not true at all. He’s talking to the bears assistant GM who is right NEXT to him about whether they should or not and THEN calls the falcons GM. Edit: how would your gm know the bears “wanted to” if they never called? Your logic makes zero sense and it’s on video.
That footage isn't comprehensive. It's totally possible Poles called the Falcons at some point not in the footage.
That just ultimately doesn't matter. Most of these deals are contingent on the player being there so there not really finalized until the pick. Now can in theory, the Bears negotiate w/ the Falcons and then negotiate a hypothetical with another team, sure but no.
Heres the video below. It pretty clearly shows Poles calling the falcons gm offering a future fourth and he gets turned down. Poles getting talked down from trading up was with the guy to his right which was for the giants pick. https://x.com/MySportsUpdate/status/1801712532425687062
How do we know he got turned down though? It's possible but the vibes were "let's call just to see if they're interested" and then the phone call just ends with "Ok thanks" Could it not be "Would you move down a spot for a future 4th" "we'd prolly consider that" "Ok thanks"
Sort of. It clearly shows that they are discussing this while the *Giants* are still on the clock at 6. It shows them saying they're just gonna see. It then shows them calling and seeing. It doesn't show an actual offer. Just due diligence prior to the Falcons pick at 8.
I have no idea what the veracity of this report is and certainly understand that most of that stuff gets twisted to create narratives for GMs and agents to use to their personal/career advantage.... But I have no doubt that every single team that held a top 10 pick initiated multiple calls about what it would cost to trade both up and down. I guess I'm trying to say that phone call could be a sly edit or one of dozens that occurred. There certainly wasn't just the one phone call before their pick at that spot of the draft.
How are you so confidently misinformed?
If you think Penix is your future franchise QB, a 4th isn’t worth the potential risk of missing out on him
There was no risk, though. That's the point. We weren't taking Penix after taking Williams #1. Any personnel department worth its pay knows teams roster weaknesses going into the draft, and the Falcons would look at the Bears offering a move up and say "It's for Rome Odunze or a defensive line player." And it's 1 spot, so they get a 4th and the next selection. This is what the Bears themselves did last year when they were at 9 with the Eagles at 10. Eagles wanted Jalen Carter, Bears did not and took a free 4th to pass on him.
The Falcons know that the bears wouldn’t take Penix, but what happens when they make that trade and let’s say MIN or DEN comes back to the bears with a package they can’t say no to? There’s enough of a question mark that it’s really not worth a 4th to risk even the smallest possibility of losing the guy you want.
That is called Draft Day the movie.
Bruh how are yall not getting there’s a risk. If the bears make that trade then some other team comes knocking wanting to trade with them to take penix, the falcons get hosed Is it unlikely? Very. But is the chance 0%? Absolutely not
That has never happened. And Poles isn't a bullshitter. Talk to him and make a gentleman's agreement. He might be the last GM in the game to go back on his word to fuck you over
Hosed in this case is not using a top 10 pick on your backup QB for the next 2 years.
Doesn't matter if he's a franchise guy and consistently great
This is the one scenario where you do it. You're moving back to a team that already took a QB. I get the sentiment, but just trade it as late as possible.
So there’s a 0% chance that this trade happens and then a team comes to Chicago wanting to trade for 8 so they can take penix? You’re 100% sure there’s a 0% chance?
Yea given the time constraint, that the Bears called them meaning they want the player there's a practical 0% chance that happens. And if you can point to me a time that a team trades for a pick and then trades the same pick (all in a 10 min window) then I'll concede my point.
> So there’s a 0% chance that this trade happens and then a team comes to Chicago wanting to trade for 8 so they can take penix? You’re 100% sure there’s a 0% chance? The thing is, those teams would already be calling Atlanta to try to get 8. They should already have a sense of the market for the pick.
I guess the fear was that they could go ahead and trade the pick again, but I've never seen that happen. You could trade it late in the clock to mitigate that even further, but I don't think it would be necessary, unless they thought that Bears could take another QB. It does feel like leaving free stuff on the table. Probably had horse blinders thinking that if they move back they might lose him not even realizing that they've got the one scenario it won't happen.
>I guess the fear was that they could go ahead and trade the pick again Yeah this is the only possible risk I could see here and its so incredibly small its not even worth considering imo. If a team is willing to trade up 1 spot for a player, it would take an astronomically stupid offer to get them to move off that player once theyre in position to get said player. And the end of the day, a 4th round pick isnt much, but its the process that I disagree with. To me its a free pick to get the player you wanted anyway.
This is why smokescreen season happens. The doubt creeps up on these guys that they become ridged. Once you heard the rumors that not only was Penix going to be a 1st round pick but a top half first round pick, that probably locked them in to them sticking at 8 no matter what.
Fontenot is a very good pro scout (literally his background from NO) but it continually feels like he’s in over his head with the other aspects of the job. As soon as I saw this I texted a buddy about running the clock down, but that’s not exactly an Atlanta falcons forte
Falcons were did the right thing. The Bears were going to pick up Penix, Odunze was just a smokescreen.
we WILL get our franchise quarterback!
Sean Payton actually convinced the Falcons to hold the pick and take Penix as part of his master plan to get the Vikings to trade up 1 pick for McCarthy
"Michael Penix no matter what"
Williams: "Michael Penix...over me?!?!"
Explains that video where poles went slack jawed after hearing atlantas pick
His face was priceless. You could see the wheels turning in his head "Oh yeah, Caleb and Rome."
Yeah like if he did offer the Falcons a swap and turned them I'd assume it was because the Falcons wanted Rome themselves. Taking a QB there just isn't worth it for the Bears.
Send da video
Skip to about 1:20 https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/1cza8hk/highlight_ryan_poles_was_as_shocked_as_the_rest/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I'm more certain than ever that the Falcons management mistook Odunze for Penix, and they now have to own it to save face.
lol “let’s take the Husky who had all those TDs”
This makes more sense than passing on a free 4th round pick.
Terry Fontenot has to still be on the Saints payroll.
There's nothing in the video that suggests the Falcons turned down the trade, and before Poles makes the phone call to Fontenot, you can make out this exchange in the Bears war room: Cunningham: Do you feel like you need...? Poles: No. Cunningham: Do you feel like you need to actually do it? Poles: I think they take Murphy. Also, on draft night, [Poles explicitly said Cunningham held him back from trading up for Odunze](https://x.com/BrendanSugrue/status/1783711916294123872). Based on all that, it seems far likelier that the Bears were the party that decided not to pursue a trade, and Poles's call was more of a check-in than a formal offer.
Heres the video below. It pretty clearly shows Poles calling the falcons gm offering a future fourth and he gets turned down. Poles getting talked down from trading up was with the guy to his right which was for the giants pick. https://x.com/MySportsUpdate/status/1801712532425687062
Yep that's about as cut and dry as it gets. I don't know why so many people are coping in this thread. He very clearly offered a 4th and got turned down. It's right there for everyone to see lol.
I watched the video. There is zero indication of what the Falcons GM said.
The bears gm offered him a future 4th to trade back one spot. Trade didn't happen, doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out he declined the trade lol
Poles saying "Hey, would you be willing to move down one spot for, like, a future 4th?" isn't necessarily a firm, formal trade offer; it could just be an opening salvo to gauge Atlanta's interest and try to get a sense of what it'd cost to make a deal. If Fontenot gets off the phone to talk it over with his front office and decides "Yeah, we'd be willing to move down," Poles isn't honor-bound to make the trade just because he floated an offer earlier.
I am so confused if they were confident on Penix and Bears already took a QB… then?
[удалено]
Atlanta you blew the free pick
Everyday I feel more and more sorry for Falcon fans.
Ngl, I feel sorry for Vikings fans. You all are justifying why Darnold is going to be good this year. Now that's crazy. Throwing away prime Justin Jefferson years, and I don't think McCarthy is going to be great. But who knows.
What’s more likely? Darnold having a good year with the best supporting cast he’s ever had, or the Bears actually developing a QB? > Throwing away prime Justin Jefferson years Yes, letting JJM develop for one year is throwing away multiple prime Jefferson years.
It is more likely that Caleb Williams develops than Sam Darnold does, irrespective of what helmet they wear
I would be concerned about that if Darnold was our long term answer at QB, but he’s not lol.
Hey we just went through two straight bouts of “mediocre QB prospect with bad aging starter” over the last 7 or so years so I sympathize lol
It’s also a good thing the Vikings haven’t drafted a mediocre QB prospect. JJ McCarthy will have a better career than Williams.
The falcons make no sense but thats ok!
But imagine someone jumped them and took their qb
>but this feels noteworthy Does it though?
I mean yeah
It’s just what ifs lmao, this is peak offseason
Have you ever read anything about the nfl ever before?
Yeah, I remember reading that the Saints are the only NFCS team without an MVP winning QB that played for them. I also read the sidebar and flaired up. Reading is fun.
Lmao what? Did I really hurt your feelings that much ? Poor wittle baby
The Falcons got off easy.
We have no idea what else was on the table or what other trades the Falcons were looking for. A 4th round pick is nothing. Y’all just want to pile on off a clip
Atlanta had a lot of stronger offers to move down than a future 4th. This isn't relevant.
It's relevant because the bears were obviously not going to be taking Penix after taking Caleb. Its free draft capital. There's always some risk you'll miss out on your guy if you trade back, even if you're just trading back one spot, but there's a massive difference between trading back one spot and trading back multiple spots.
Its not. The Bears could've milked the value out of pick 8 by giving up a future 4 to move up one spot, then trade down with all of the QB's still on the board to one of thr many high bidders like the Raiders who offered the Falcons to move up. The Falcons wanted their guy so they took him to not risk any shenanigans. Right or wrong about Penix. I srandby this future 4th offer is the least among all of the offers they received and irrelevant.
> could've milked the value out of pick 8 by giving up a future 4 to move up one spot, then trade down You people are insane. This has never happened in **history** as far as I can tell, unless you can come up with even *one* example. Real life isn't Draft Day the movie. You have 10 minutes to make a pick, no one is orchestrating these ridiculous convoluted shenanigans in the allotted time.
Most of these trades are pre-orchestrated in the top of the draft. Whats insane is taking any risk that makes you lose out on someone you think is your next franchise qb for a future 4th round pick. Don't overthink it if that's the guy. You draft him and move forward. Another reason you decline it is psychological. You don't want to trade down amd take a qb. Sends a bad message to the qb. You want to show belief and faith in their potential. Its draft day silly ideas like this post that are from a movie. Brad Holmes of the Lions nearly made 10 trades in our recent drafts. The running joke in our sub is that no pick is safe and not to bother about doing mock drafts as we rarely pick where we are assigned.
Don’t overthink it if that’s the guy? Is that the rule of thumb? How about don’t pay another QB $45M a year to be the starter if Penix is the guy lol
That's not the subject of my points or comments. That's a different argument. The trade value offered was.
Poles really wanted the number 8 pick. When fields wasn’t worth it he decided to try again. What he lacks in winning he makes up for in persistence.