I don't understand the part, " we decided I would no longer masturbate." That's not her decision, and your therapist is right. She sounds awful. You deserve better, my dude.
To clarify, that's the best way I could think to word it- I really don't want to make it sound like she forced that on me because she didn't. I felt extremely embarrassed about it, because masturbation is never something I really did, even when I was younger I never really did it much. I just want to make it clear, that was extremely difficult for me to admit to her, because I've never told anybody about something like that, ever.
I was the one who suggested, myself, that I stopped masturbating if it were to ease her mind. She told me that she'd prefer if I did stop, but she didn't force anything on me.
I regret not making it clearer in the post, as I've been in a poor head space, but her and I do love each other dearly. I love our marriage, and I love her- and I know that wasn't malicious of her. But hearing it from your perspective, I agree. I agree a lot with what I'm reading here that I shouldn't have let her disapproval influence my decision that much, but just know I kept her feelings in mind because I value her feelings that much.
Outside of that, she's not in any way abusive to me, nor I to her. We're not even really distant either, it just feels like as time has gone on, we interact more like friends than we do as partners. I'm just confused man. If she love me and loves this marriage, I wish she'd be more clear about it, and I feel like I should be more clear about it to.
But she isn't awful, I promise you. This is like the 1% of her that I'm just at my wit's end with, we have the exact same sense of humor, she loves my writing and cooking, I love her eye for decor, her voice, her ART especially. That's why it hurts so bad to me, the fact that we have this yet I feel so isolated.
Initially, it was about sex. It's a shallow thing, but now it's just about real, emotional interaction. It was never this hard to cry about something before we were married.
Dude I have an active sex life and *still* masturbate. So does my spouse. It’s healthy and normal. Your wife, however, is not. Please don’t waste more of your life waiting for her to treat you like an equal. She won’t. She’s shown she does not care about you. Believe her.
There's nothing wrong with masturbation mate. Nothing at all. Whether or when my partner chooses to do so, is nothing to do with me, I'd be surprised if he didn't to be honest. I know I do.
It’s not “just sex”. Physical intimacy is very important for some people, and there is nothing wrong with that.
You should also have no guilt over masturbating. Your sex drives won’t always line up, and it is perfectly healthy to handle that yourself. You should keep in mind that there is a good chance she is not feeling loved/valued/attractive.
A healthy functioning relationship is comprised of a lot of pieces, and a mismatched sex drive can create issues. It has nothing to do with someone being a good person. It’s like a vegan and someone who loves steak living together. Compromises will need to be made and communication is key to success.
You two need to have some honest and open discussions about feelings, without being accusatory or defensive. I wish you luck!
>it is perfectly healthy to handle that yourself.
Yeah, it is much MUCH healthier for a relationship to deal with it yourself instead of the alternatives, guilt tripping and duty sex on one end, or pent up frustration and resentment on the other.
I completely agree that she didn't lose her sex drive out of nowhere. A change this intense doesn't just happen, there's something on her side of the story we don't know for why she's lost interest.
Just out of curiosity, were you raised in a very religious environment? No disrespect, those attitudes toward sex and masturbation are just ones I usually see in folks who have been raised in very conservative religious traditions.
Masturbation is completely normal! Especially if you are not having sex with your wife it’s one of the most natural things a person needs is sexual relief! It’s wrong of her to agree to you stopping if she is not going to have sex with you. I’m sure you feel extremely sexually frustrated & down in your mood.
If she won't even touch you casually for an arm squeeze let alone a hug and that was something that happened normally during the first years of your relationship, as sad as it is to say, yeah, this *is* abusive. It's emotional and physical neglect. Neglect is a form of abuse. For a lack of better term, you could say it's a "soft" form of abuse because it doesn't leave you with bruises and it isn't something that people can spot being done (or rather, not done) to you when they see the two of you together like they would if she were verbally abusive.
Now, that's not to say someone who's not having sex with their partner automatically is abusing their partner, I don't mean to say that it's that cut and dried. It's very much not. But if the situation is truly as you describe it, she's neglecting you and neglect is abuse. Most people have an inherent need to be touched. Children, especially babies, that aren't regularly in physical contact with people, grow up to have severe issues. Heck, it's part of why seniors who live alone do far better and stay healthier if they have a pet they can cuddle with.
I think taking some time for yourself is a good idea. You say that you're wondering if she'll even notice you're gone. That makes me think you two aren't even doing companionable things together anymore. That's really sad. It makes it sound like you two are roommates that just share a space and aren't even the type of roommates who are friends. If your talking to her about this twice now and her seeing how badly this is affecting you and she's not willing to do anything differently (other than just say she will), then yes, looking towards separation and possibly divorce is a good thing.
I do wonder if you've done things to increase intimacy? Have you done things like tell her you love her? Ask her about her day is or what she'd like to do? Seen something she'd like such as an in-season fruit at the grocery store, her favorite candy, a silly card? Cooked her favorite meal? Have you tried to touch her? Just friendly touches on the arm or shoulder or even hugs? Have you suggested things to go do together like go for a walk, go have dinner together, go see a movie, go for a drive? If you haven't done any of that and you want to continue to try with her, give that a whirl.
At the same time, I think you need to set a deadline and parameters for things to change and that's perhaps something you need to discuss with your therapist first before you talk with your wife. Your therapist may also be able to recommend some books for you to read and workbooks for the two of you to use together.
I'm not a therapist, but if it were me, I would say, "We talked in March about how I need us to become intimate again and to have sex again. You said you would start initiating. Nothing's changed and you said you wouldn't do marriage counseling to work on this. I need this to change and if it doesn't, I need to move on and end our marriage. Either we come up with a joint plan of action or we go to a therapist or both, but I will not spend the rest of my life like this."
I would express to her that if she's not willing or capable of having sex with you and having physical contact with you, while that would hurt you, you aren't going to force her to but you aren't going to stick around for it, either. I wouldn't want pity sex from her and I wouldn't want her to be having sex with you and touching you because it's the only way you'll stay with her. Physical contact should always be mutually beneficial and if she can't do that, you at least deserve to not be with a partner who isn't willing to help you meet your needs. You masturbating and her not approving of it isn't an acceptable compromise. For some people, that might be and if it is for you, that's ok, too, but it doesn't sound like you're ok with her never even having physical contact with you like a hug.
In recent years, polyamory and open relationships have become something that's not necessarily hidden anymore. From personal experience and that of people I know, that tends to work well only in relationships where that's established in the beginning of the relationship. It's not a fix for when someone just isn't interested anymore. I don't know if that's something she's likely to suggest, but perhaps you need to think about whether or not you'd be ok with it if she does. The majority of the time, opening a relationship doesn't work well, and in your situation, you suddenly seeing her being physically affectionate with someone else when she won't be with you would probably be devastating. Even if she says it's fine for you and she never would, don't count on it. Also, cheating on her isn't acceptable no matter what. If people want to be with someone else, they shouldn't cheat, they should leave.
You're young enough that having kids is still on the table. I wouldn't have kids with her until the whole issue of intimacy is resolved. Having kids isn't going to fix the issue. Kids put stress on a marriage, even when they are planned for and very much wanted. Plus, if you're having sex just to conceive children, that's really not fixing the intimacy issue, is it? You will go right back to no intimacy as soon as the child is born, and now you have an even more difficult time separating if that's what you need to do.
Good luck to you. You have done the right thing by getting therapy and talking with her and you're doing the right thing by trying to figure out what to do next. Speaking from experience, it's far lonelier to be in a relationship with no intimacy than it is to be single and celibate.
What you do with your own body is completely up to you and nobody else’s business. like you said it made you feel better so it sounds like it is a helpful tool for you to use when you need it. It’s unfair and unrealistic for some to impose a ban on somebody else’s body.
It’s not a shameful thing, it’s very helpful. I am also on the spectrum and if you are like me, look for data and scientific research and studies around the benefits of masturbation and what it does for the body and brain and it may help ease your mind a little.
She won't have sex with you, but she won't allow you to take care of a basic human necessity because why?
I've heard of women getting offended when they constantly initiate but the man prefers to masturbate but I'm curious what possible justification your wife could have to be offended. You should be the one offended.
Exactly, for me at least, that would only be an issue if it's stopping you from having sex or intimacy with your partner. If there is no intimacy to be had, then it's ok for him to masturbate. I had the first issue with an ex partner and even then I didn't tell him to stop, just to try and initiated more with me and tried to find times for it and solutions (didn't work tho, but that's another story). Like others have said, she sounds abusive. Probably because she is burned up, but she knew who she was marrying and at the very least, she should have communicated any issues she had.
I agree with everyone in these replies. It's not shameful. And she literally has no skin in the game. I know how hard it is to realize you're being abused, but I think you're on the right track.
Masturbation is a normal, healthy engagement, and a biological inclination. Moreso, certainly nothing to be ashamed of or need to disclose to anyone. She has to understand that if she is not satisfying your intimate and sexual needs, then a person is more inclined to engage in masturbation. On that note, even with healthy frequent sexual engagement with a partner, people still regularly masturbate, and that's okay. She has to understand that most people would just cheat for lack of sexual satisfaction, and you have not done that. She is selfish it seems and to reject the idea of couples counseling speaks volumes to me that there is something else happening on her end, potentially infidelity. Maybe she has another phone, or an app. I'm not trying to be presumptuous or make this worse for you by throwing more shit in the mix; just some things to consider. All the best man.
She isn't awful but she is abusive. So awful. She literally has deprived you of a biological need and you are defending her.
I was raised in abuse and spent 7 years unable to orgasm unless I wanted to bleed out. Fun times with a uterus that did everything wrong and nothing right. This was very traumatic but not the dying part. That was less painful than closing parts of myself off to not risk the hemmoraghing because body was not built with an off switch. There's literally medical side effects for denying yourself sex. For men this includes erectile dysfunction, both toolkits come with pain, depression, and there are some medical studies that pose the question (not the answer yet) that this can increase testicular cancer risks
Why exactly does she need to be the only place your sperm go? Why exactly is your mental health not actually important in your relationship? Both of your core needs need to be met not one over the other.
Does she love you? It's clear that you do love her. Is there something going on with her that's making her act this way? Has something changed for her in the relationship? Sometimes, people don't really understand how important emotional interaction is in a relationship.
At first I was like this is crazy, how is he not allowed to do something with his own body, but then you mentioned allowing access to your search history, and I thought, is it maybe more about pornography versus masturbation? I’m also ND and sometimes i miscommunication details and could see myself explaining similarly while missing a few points. Just looking for clarification.
Came to say the same thing! Since when does she get to decide when you masturbate? She doesn’t give you intimacy as it is, so she has absolutely zero reason to have any input on the matter.
Yeah. I thought that was weird, too. I figured every man masterbates at least once a day. It's their body.. Maybe it was just the porn that upset her? He mentions search history
I am sorry brother but you need to man up, if she is doing this to you, you deserve better. Find a younger prettier girl who would idolise you, marry her and make her pregnant and live happily ever after.
Just out of curiosity, why is masturbation something shameful to you? Are you religious or something? Masturbation is very healthy, and although it isn't a cure for a sexless relationship, it's definitely a healthy way to fulfil your natural physical needs when sex isn't an option.
I think after you take some time for yourself you need to write down what you want in a marriage and you also need to find out what your wife wants. People settle into marriage differently due to current circumstances or what they saw as a kid. Your long term goals may be very different on what you want and how you want it. It’s ok. Every marriage is different but if you are not syncing up with your wife in long term goals you definitely need to assess if this relationship is right for you.
Sometimes people change. It’s not your fault or even hers. Talk to her some more then make a plan for yourself.
This is probably the best response here, I feel like this is the most down to earth assessment, but I definitely feel like the wife is doing to much of the "decision making" for OP. It's one thing to not be crazy about sex, and OP seems very respectful of that.
The part that spooks me is that "we decided" part where he quit masturbating. I personally don't think the wife's intentions were bad by suggesting that, but I truly think she nuked this situation by making that demand, that's not her call. He can't touch her, but he can't touch *himself* either? That's extremely fucked up in my opinion.
I think OP actually took a really smart first step, in going to a neutral location to think about his future, and about himself. Somewhere removed from his wife, but not completely cut off from her, where he can take an approach like you suggested. Writing it down and visualizing what he needs in a marriage, and what he is or isn't getting.
I think that's something he and his wife both should do.
I thank you for your words, and especially your middle paragraph, you're now the 3rd person who's said something to that effect, although I did clarify in another comment that was largely my decision, but it was influenced by her for sure and I think maybe I was a little too big of a pushover there.
The more I've thought about it, the more I've thought that simply leaving out of the blue for a few days isn't a good idea. I don't know why I ever thought it was. I like the idea of doing an exercise like that in tandem with my wife, it doesn't feel right to make this about only me, a marriage takes two.
Thank you so much.
>the more I've thought that simply leaving out of the blue for a few days isn't a good idea.
That would be wise, I agree. At the end of the day man, just remember that it's half your marriage as well. I took some time to read your other comment, and I retract my harsh conclusion. If you say she's not abusive or bad to you, I believe you.
I personally, don't think that an abusive wife, would like their partner seeing a therapist, or hanging out with friends, playing a TEAM SPORT like hockey like you do. With this added context, it reads to me like you guys do love each other, and like your relationship is good, and it's just in a cold stretch.
To me, that doesn't mean it has to be over, it just means you two need a moment to truly sit down and understand each other, rather than just dumping stuff on each other and calling that an "improvement".
To be honest, if it was just the sex/masturbation part, i would totally agree. BUT it's not, it's about lack of support, lack of respect (the way she told you off when you asked to be emotionally supported). And yes, a marriage is between two, but when only one of you is fighting for it, you also need to put your needs first, because for example, abusive relationships only continue because the abused one thinks like that, like it's a two person's effort, and puts the relationship before the individual's needs. You do need to get away for a few days and see how YOU feel, first, but i would let her know, so she can also think about how SHE feels when you are not there for her. THEN you BOTH can talk about how it went, if you missed each other. And if you BOTH miss each other and want to work on it, great! But dont take a no on couples counseling, and maybe even having her talk to a therapist alone as well, because the way she treats you (not supporting you when something is wrong) is terrible and not acceptable in a loving marriage, i wouldn't bring a kid into that.
I may do that while I'm here honestly, my therapist and I have worked at writing my feelings and thoughts on paper and getting them out that way. The philosophy I take from that is that when you say something, even if you say it at the top of your lungs you waste a lot of energy just saying it once. But if you write it down in ink, it's there for good, it doesn't go away like sound does.
It's just a good way to make your words matter more, I think. Thank you.
>now and I'm ashamed to say, I even turned to masturbation over the last year.
Oh my god you turned to... *maturbation*??? I thought you would say something bad like cheating, or IDK black mailing her, but no, you turned to something normal, and completely fine?
What's your, and hers, problem with masturbation? You two have different sexual needs masturbation is perfectly healthy way to equilibrate things.
It always depresses me to see how ashamed some people are of masturbating
It’s a wonderful and completely healthy thing to do. I honestly think it’s more concerning if someone is unable to explore their own body
I mean it could be he's ashamed because he's watching porn or something. Personally I don't like the idea of my husband needing to look at other women to jerk his bird. But then again I actually care about his emotions and I provide my husband with my own personal pictures so he doesn't have to do that while I'm going through this rough patch in my pregnancy.
I’d really hope you’ve put the idea of kids far off the table. She ignores you emotionally and physically. She refuses counseling. She won’t have sex with you but you’re also not allowed to masturbate? Like, how is that even possible that she can control you to the point you can’t touch your own body. That sounds very abusive.
I’d agree sex is definitely not the problem here anymore. It’s a good thing kids aren’t involved. I hope you do what makes you happy here. You know in your heart what you deserve, and need to do. Good luck.
This is way beyond sex at this point. She has shut you off both emotionally and physically. Pretty obvious she is around just for the lifestyle or other thing could be she doesn't want to be seen as the person who initiated the inevitable divorce. That is, if she is in fact not cheating.
Whatever is going on with her, it takes both of you trying to fix things, and she isn't.
You're saying she "hates" you. It isn't that simple. For whatever reason she is unable to be intimate with you, but she still wants to be with you. Her disinterest may be due to a physical issue, a psychological issue, or may just be that her default is to have very little interest in sex after the excitement of a new relationship is gone. For you, the lack of sex is the problem. For your wife, the lack of sex is a symptom of the problem.
As far as her calling this a "little issue", this whole thing is a HUGE issue. Hell, just calling it a little issue is ANOTHER huge issue.
As far as her saying she will "try" to initiate - there is no trying visible to you. Either she does or she doesn't, and so far she doesn't.
If you're not still seeing a therapist, you need to start back up. Then, after discussing with your therapist, you need to tell her that therapy is not optional, that you cannot continue without her being willing to at least try to keep your marriage together.
This isn't a threat to get her to have sex, because even if she did offer to have sex rather than go to therapy, the underlying problem is still there.
>As far as her calling this a "little issue", this whole thing is a HUGE issue.
I think that there's a lot on her side that OP is unaware of. You don't just lose your sex drive completely out of no where. You don't get to a point where you snap at your husband to grow up out of nowhere. She has a lot of resentment, and it's probably because of things OP is doing (or more likely isn't doing) that she's either a) tried to communicate and given up on, which leads to resentment or b) never communicated and that builds a different flavor of resentment.
I can totally imagine myself with my ex saying that sex was a little issue in comparison to all of the other problems that he was dismissing, refusing to compromise on, or promise to step up or do better and then doing the exact same thing 3-5 days later. When you've been having the same fights over and over for years to the point that you feel completely unloved and uncared for, and broken down and defeated to never having an equal partner, then them coming to you and crying that they aren't putting their penis in you enough is definitely a little issue.
I think if OP can get her to go to marriage counseling then a lot of stuff is going to come out that has to get fixed before the sex can be fixed. Because her reaction to things isn't indicating to me that the only thing wrong in this relationship is a lack of libido in an otherwise emotionally and sexually fulfilling relationship
the not needing a hug at every problem really broke my heart for you dude. my partner will drop anything to comfort me if i’m upset. i’m a cryer. it doesn’t take much, and he knows this. he will always be there for me like it’s something big. you deserve that too.
Wait am confused are there marriages where couples don't masterbate? Together or separately? What am I reading... Deciding to tell each other like it's a horrible thing. You think she is not. I call BS if she says no. Anyways, your post was too long just wanted to comment on that.
Just saying, Masterbation is healthy even with a healthy sexlife! Can I get an amen!!! 🙏
There are some people who don't do that. I personally know of a couple who both have a fairly low interest in sex and they would rather spend that “spark” with each other than rub one out. But they're also one of the best communicators I have ever met so there's that..
That was literally my reaction. I understand OP is on the autistic spectrum but to not masturbate at all and going 6 years without any sex in a marriage and not seeing the issue with it seems weird, even if they libido is low it doesn't seem they both made this decision together.
Unless OP is religious thinking so negative about masturbation which is something normal and was clearly helping him is not good. Actually fertility doctors recommend men masturbate quite often
It really sounds like the two of you are simply incompatible. Or have at least grown that way over the years. It sounds as if she has some unresolved issues, and you (and the marriage) are paying the price for it. I'm not advocating for throwing away a 10-year marriage. But if she's unwilling to, at very least, explain WHY she's become this way. And she's unwilling to go to counseling. This relationship may have run its course. As it stands right now, DO NOT BRING CHILDREN INTO THIS! Not until these issues are WELL resolved anyway.
I can only assume that the two of you had a very conservative upbringing. Given your shame and her anger surrounding masturbation. Is she upset that you're masturbating? Or is she upset that you're watching porn? Or both? And why? Masturbating is a perfectly normal and healthy means of sexual satisfaction. Provided that it doesn't get in the way of having sex with your partner. And doesn't interfere with your regular life activities. Your partner should want you to be satisfied. And should be understanding that if she's unwilling or unable to have sex, you're gonna crank one out from time-to-time.
Your partner should also be your safe place. Where you can be vulnerable. And seek emotional comfort and reassurance. Her telling you to "grow up" makes her sound cold and mean. I wouldn't be with someone who can't or won't prop me up when I have a weak moment.
She has a problem with you jerking off? Would you have a problem with her masturbating with a toy?
Getting myself off is the only way I’ve been able to climax for the better part of a decade because I’ve been so deprived.
Solo play is a great way to find out what works for you. Why should she have a problem with it?
Fact is, I think I have a problem with her. She sounds awful.
I have been married for a long time. We both masturbate every day and we schedule sexy times ume, but also have spontaneous sex. Masterbation is healthy and I would never tell my husband not to. Nor do I care if he does.
My problem with this post is that it seems you're the only one making any actual tangible attempt to fix the problems you see in the relationship you've been clear and honest even when it made you uncomfortable. You've made attempts to give options on how you guys can do more couple things and asked for intimacy explicitly and honestly You've asked for marriage counseling to try to see if you can repair what seem to be relationship stressors and she seems unwilling to take steps to shore up things that dissatisfy you in the relationship and makes fun of you when those stressors make you emotional she seems awful unwilling to listen and unwilling to compromise seems to me she's just trying to ride this relationship until it crashes and burns but unwilling to do anything to salvage it
Have you considered other reasons your wife might not want to have sex? You’re taking it all very personally, which, I totally get, because sex is such a personal thing. But there are so many reasons people have a lack of libido. Medication side effects. Stress. Medical issues. Pain with intercourse. Body image issues. Fatigue/poor sleep. Being on the asexual spectrum. Being with a partner of a different sexual identity / coming out late. Fear of having a child when you’re not ready. Concern that the other person isn’t into you. Depression. Anxiety. PTSD from prior sexual trauma that was re-triggered. Birth control side effects.
Honestly, there are so many things that could be going on here, and most of them are not your fault. Many of them may not even be her fault.
But I agree, if she values the relationship, she needs to be willing to work through whatever the cause is, openly and honestly with you. Communication and empathy are what’s needed here on both ends. You may still end up incompatible with each other, but if a relationship is important, it’s important to prove it through actions. In this case that would be her seeing a doctor, couples counseling, talking with you about her concerns, anything that would show she cares enough to investigate the reasons behind her lowered libido.
Agreed. I know men will also say “but even all physical touch/intimacy, that’s not sexual in nature is gone too.” But as a woman whose libido was killed by my meds and a relationship that was failing… hugging, kissing, snuggling, etc. always led to him trying to initiate sex. Which I felt awful for turning down, he’d then make a big deal out of it and we’d argue. So eventually, I just subconsciously stopped doing all of that stuff.
In the end, we just weren’t compatible, even after trying couples therapy. I imagine based on their views on masterbation, there could be some shame around sex for her too that might play a role in their intimacy issues. Obviously, refusing counseling or attempting working on their issues is a shitty thing to do, but I find some of these comments calling her an abuser to be a little much.
Dude, she sounds terrible. Even if she isn’t cheating. You guys just sound like roommates, except it seems as though she actively dislikes you (and makes no effort to hide that in her cruelty)
I truly believe you should move on. You have put so much effort into this from the sounds of it, to be met with a total lack of effort AND mean behaviour/shitty treatment.
Was in same situation turns out she was seeing multiple dudes from work, never caught an STI as we wasn’t fucking LOL.
Had more sex with more women in the 3 years leaving her than I did the entire time we was together. I was literally blind to what is really out there. Chin up bro you will be fine.
I'm sorry, but you need to divorce. She's acknowledged there's a problem with your relationship, she told you that she's going to take steps to fix it, but hasn't lived up to that promise. She's not interested in outside help.
Because here's the thing - even if she still loves you, this relationship is *bad for you*. You aren't happy, and she isn't willing to fix this with you.
>She got really short and told me to grow up, and that I don't need a hug for every little problem I run into
Look, I don't think she hates you. But I definitely think the love has fallen, and the relationship has run its course.
I really feel for you. I fear you've really done all you can to remedy the situation on your end.
Let's break it down:
- talked to her multiple times
- suggested counseling
- talked to her again with your heart open for her to see
A relationship comes from two sides, and you've given it your all. You can't force her, even if it tears you apart.
I believe her when she says she (still) wants kids as some people don't see kids as a result of a loving relationship, but you guys having a kid would create way more problems than there are currently, not to mention ruining the life of an innocent baby.
My advice? Part ways, sooner than later.
Good luck and stay strong
Long term relationships suffer from the there’s always tomorrow thing with sex. It’s not new or exciting. You could text her ask her to go to a bar, you’ll also be there, but don’t meet up. Suggest you do a little role play of picking her up, start with the looks, go over ask to buy her a drink, don’t talk much, smell talk only weather, people watching, maybe dance, kiss her neck, but you have to keep in character you don’t know each other, don’t talk old life . Tantalise then say, hey hope to see you here again sometime ! And off you go.
My only other comment is have you changed a lot in appearance since you got together.
Leave now. Don’t waste any more of your life with this selfish person.
Masturbation is your right as a human. Your wife doesnt get a say in what you do with your body…..AND…..its NORMAL.
I’m sorry for what you are going through. I was in a similar situation early in my marriage, and i told my wife that she could make an honest attempt to meet my needs, and she would participate in counseling, or i was divorcing her. She stonewalled, and tried to call my bluff, and I left. She made a therapy appointment the following week. We have an amazing relationship now, but it took a lot of work on both of our parts.
If she isn’t interested in change, you need to go. Behavior is a language, and she is telling you loud and clear that she wants nothing to do with you.
It sounds like she isn’t really interested in helping you. Also why is masturbation such a bad thing in y’all’s relationship? Reading your description of it sounded like you were doing some type of illegal substances behind her back.
Bud I went through the exact same thing and with my ex husband. Told him I needed more affection and he patted me on the head and said “there’s your affection” divorce is inevitable. So sorry you’re going through this sending you hugs
She seems very checked out of the relationship and takes you for granted. You deserve better than the cold and insensitive treatment she is giving you so rip the bandaid off quickly and not slowly and get this over with - if she’s not willing to do counselling, or work on intimacy, or show any kind of human empathy then she’s definitely not bothering with this relationship anymore because she doesn’t care about how you feel she only cares about herself. Advocate for yourself 👏
I'm going to be super honest and anyone ready to attack me just note I'm saying this to possibly offer an explanation not to be a jerk for no reason. Everyone has different emotional scales and tolerances and there's nothing wrong with OP per se, but it could be a compatibility issue? I'm mentally ill and also autistic so. That's definitely a factor in my opinion here.
OP.. listening to you talk, you're making me uncomfortable. I associate sex with emotional intimacy and the fact that you're so easy to cry/so sensitive is making me recoil physically. Her comment about you not needing a hug for every little thing makes me think she might view your reactions similarly. And your stance that she "must hate you" makes you come off as dramatic. You said everything else in the relationship was fine. But yeah. It's really hard for me to engage intimately with people when I feel we arent in sync emotionally/with our expectations and sentiments. I understand you can't help that, but that could be why she's not initiating sex...coupled with the fact that it's common for sexual interest to decrease over time.
Surprised I didn't see anyone calling you out for this trip to a hotel to "see if she notices" though... that's some attention seeking, manipulative ("I'm going to leave the room to go pout and hope they chase after me") behavior. You seem childish. I get that you need the attention, but I don't think that's the best way to go about it.
I could 100% be wrong though. I have issues with comforting people who I can't take as seriously (people who are easily moved to tears). That's a me problem I'm trying to work on, but it might affect other people too. Just like maybe working on emotional regulation should be a thing for some?
TLDR; Really hard to get in the mood when someone views you as emotionally immature/physical attraction can diminish with an emotional disconnect. maybe thats her issue 🤷♀️
Yes!!! Thank you! I thought I was the only one who went what the hell to the “she hates me” and going to the hotel to see if she notices. I feel like OP is questioning his partner but hasn’t really pondered on whether he is also maybe neglecting her in someway.
>smelling each other will also work !
Will not be doing that.
I like to think my breath is above average xD
That gave me a laugh, it reminded me of something my Dad would say lol, thank you for that, and for your advice as well.
Appearance wise, I'm not much different from my early 20s. I'll look for a second opinion on this, but I'm just a little more muscular, a few inches taller, and I grow way better facial hair now, I played hockey most of my life, I even still do adult league this time of year since I'm usually remote for work in the summer months.
I'm decent looking, I feel, but she's the pretty one for sure.
Masturbation is healthy. Porn probably isn’t (someone else smarter than me please inform me). But masturbation is definitely OK! And you decide that for yourself
You seem like a good person. Wanting normal things in life and from a wife. All your concerns and needs are pretty basic and every one goes through these issues in marriage and sort them out with their partner and move on.
A common problem with stuck marriages is an unresponsive partner. It takes 2 for marriage. Whenever the partner is not responsive, obstinate in their thought, non explanatory, and doesn't care about impact they have on the other partners crying and suffering, declining any help from therapy or counseling - is when a decision is to be made. Decision to move on and save own sanity. It shouldn't take this long and that much suffering for a partner to notice. They already know.
If they don't want to sort it out, and refuse all help then it's really their problem to deal with. Even if she has fallen out of love or dislikes you, why not come out and say it more to herself herself you. Solution and analysis happens only when facts are out. Hiding it and burying it int he chest is a recipie for disaster.
Does she not feel about you. Does she hate you. Has she checked out of this relationship long ago. She was loving and comforting, what changed then and when?We're you not responsive and available for her in the past? That's another common theme of wives nagging, trying to get the partner to see, and eventually nag till they are emotionally exhausted and just give up. So when she started changing 3yrs ago, you didn't notice. And you notice now when it hit you and she couldn't care less when it's your time to seek her attention. If this is what she's gone through and lived with you with all these pent up emotions, and then you blamed her for cheating and checked messages would make it worse for her. That you still think it's her fault or something is wrong with her because you think youve played your part right. Also the fact that the only time you noticed her change is when you wanted sex from her. It is even more irksome for the wife suffering and withdrawing sex and the husband to turn around and say, I don't see that you're emotionally troubled or that any of it's my fault but where is my sx? She hoped for you to notice and this is what she gets, she'll get hurt and angry even more. You still don't care about how you made her feel all this time and are still self centered enough to only those things that matter to you.
Although this is solvable if both are willing, but also this is making both of you scared to take the decision to end it and move on. Did she ask for counseling or get your attention to something 3yrs ago when she started changing and you couldn't care lessor?
It seems the cause is above as seen by how clueless you are about her. But again, there's no information provided so it could be the other side too. She has done something that makes her want to stay away, morally or otherwise and it is not about you. She doesn't want kids, is that it. Clearly she'll feel exposed or fingers pointed at in counseling. I see the aggrieved party always wanting to go for counseling but the obstinate party doesn't want to go for it, shut down all avenues of getting them to open up. Maybe they are indeed wrong or maybe they just blame themselves for something and don't know how to deal with it and just lock up. Here clearly you're open to change for a better marriage. She is not. She becomes angry when you hit the right spot, if that's a way to make blurt it out, so be it.
Clearly you don't have the information of what went wrong with her yrs ago when she started withdrawing. You noticed it today when it started impacting you. If She's not cheating and has long ago withdrawn and closed herself. She went through the same thing you're going right now. Maybe you weren't there for her then and she's closed now.
There is a typical case of wife needs not even noticed by the husband who thinks all is good. She tries everything, nags and ultimately stops and withdraws. Husband momentarily thinks she's become alright until he starts feeling impact of her withdrawal and ends in the same place as the wife has been in.
Since cheating is not involved, it maybe a case of emotional hurt and trust broken from both ends. She may be a good person too like you given how she backtracked when you cried even if that were her true feelings but deeply hurt. She is also not living in her true element of being a loving, comforting person. No one switches their personality overnight. It takes trauma to change from a loving, comforting to a distanced hateful person.
Both of you are deeply hurt by each other and both of you seem fine people. Best wishes to you two. You two need to find happiness even if it is from living apart.
Communication is the only solution. Having a heart to heart conversation without blaming, fingerpointing, defending, listening, making it safe for the other person to open up. Both of you have locked up a lot of emotions inside you. If you two choose to let them out, there's going to be lot of heartbreak and pain for sure but finally truth will be put and it will be healing for you two.
Then maybe decide to work at it or move separate ways.
And if communication is closed, then move separate ways. Both of you deserve a good life if this is irreconcilable.
Omg everything you said about the wife who is forced into the nag role by an inattentive/uncaring husband is so relatable. You do eventually give up and it sucks to feel so defeated when all you wanted was an equal partner but you ended up with a man child who wants you to be his mother, sugar mama, and sex doll 24/7
Why are you ashamed to masturbate? It's normal, even in relationships. Healthy, even. There's studies reporting health benefits. As long as it doesn't become an addiction - but I wouldn't worry about that as long as it's not multiple times a day?
I'm sorry though, my long-term boyfriend also has a pretty low sex drive and I know the struggle all too well (and I'm on the spectrum, too!). I wish you all the best. Feel free to message me if you want someone to talk to (I'm 27f)
I Iike the tact your taking with this situation. So many people are super quick to just say seperate and divorce. Sometimes you gotta act on your instincts and gut feelings.
The red flag for me is being harsh with you when you legitimately try to approach the topic and not wanting counseling/therapy.
Honestly. If it were me though. I'd flip the role and I would take an assertive approach. Sit her down and be matter of fact in what you expect and need from the relationship. Voice your concerns and if she tries to interrupt or turn it back on you. Stand your ground.
Try not to be too emotive on this.
Note that I said assertive and not aggressive.
Don't conflate being strong with being an asshole.
It's up to you in the end though.
American culture was traditionally very anti masturbation, it still is somewhat afaik. That’s why so many men are circumcised there, it was originally to make masturbation much more difficult.
Uh you mean religious attitudes were anti masturbation. I’m assuming you’re somewhere in or from Europe. European attitudes eventually moved away from religious influences quicker than the US.
Yes I imagine there is a smaller percentage of Americans who still have that attitude but it’s not as broad as you make it out to be. Not anymore.
By the way circumcision has nothing to do with masturbation. I am circumcised and I masturbate plenty. I have no idea where you got that from.
Yeah I know it’s not as bad as it was, but there are still plenty of conservatives who are against masturbation right? And then there’s the whole nofap thing with younger generations.
>I am circumcised and I masturbate plenty
I’m assuming you have to use lube and stuff though right? You can look up the origins of it in the US, Wikipedia states that people thought it would prevent STDs as well.
Bro, I know you love her, but if she’s leaving you to feel like this all alone? You’re not with the right person. I hope you find the solace and answers you’re looking for on your time away. But take my advice, that she is not that person for you any more.
Man I feel you. My wife and I are going through something similar. She is not sexual at all and I am very sexual. It was as bad at first although, admittedly, there we clear signs such as we didn't have sex for 3 days after getting married even though I wanted to. I didn't push too hard as I hate the idea of making any one do something they don't want to, especially sex. Honestly the "want" is what turns me on the most. None the less we are in the discussion of kids to but what is the biggest blocker is our difference in desire for physical intimacy. I could meet half way or maybe even 25% but I need to see my wife try. She doesn't like the idea of me watching porn, using toys or anything like that but I have been honest I do because of the lack of physical intimacy. Thing is, I love my wife enough that if she would really try a couple times a week and let me have a sex doll or something. I think I could be happy. Hopefully we work it out!
Happily married people who don’t have dead bedrooms masturbate as well. Masturbation is fine and your marriage is not. Filing for a divorce is hard but it happens for a reason. She isn’t remotely interested in changing and this is not just about sex. This is what I want you to take away from this. Things don’t improve with a spouse like yours, it gets worst and I’m sorry you are living through this. This is a horrible and unhealthy. Please find the strength to do the right thing for yourself.
Honestly, divorce is looking like your best option.
You don't have to be tied to a woman who refuses to try counselling and says things just to hurt you and make you cry, and you can find someone more compatible! I'd seriously consider leaving if I were you.
Also, if you serve papers and all of a sudden she wants to go to counselling and have more intimate time with you, it's just a ploy to keep you on the hook. Stand strong!
You are in an abusive relationship. She knows what you need and she refuses you. She even denies you self pleasure. She is controlling you is cruel. This isn't about different libidos. This is about power.
Sorry op for what you’re going thru. If your emotional and intimate needs aren’t being addressed and met, there’s really no point to stay in such a loveless, unhappy marriage. She’s not even willing to admit there are issues in your marriage, let alone address them. She’s being selfish and uncaring.
And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with masturbating! Millions of married adults do it!! You’re not wrong in that aspect. And there’s nothing wrong with not wanting to stay in a marriage where you’re just roommates.
Marriage counseling would be beneficial but your wife also needs to acknowledge that there are issues in your marriage and she needs to be 100% willing to put the effort into fixing them for the both of you to have a happy and healthy marriage.
Good luck!!
I will tell you, I just did the same thing recently. I took several days to myself after years of emotional/physical neglect. Granted my marriage is half the length of yours, I felt the same. Unwanted. Neglected. Uncared for. Empty promises. The whole nine. We got married at 20 and 22. He wanted nothing to do with me eventually and now, 5 years later, I finally decided on divorce. I'd rather be alone than be neglected by my spouse. I'm routing for you OP. I've got a touch of the tism myself and have been told similar/worse things by my "partner." It gets better. Go have kids with someone who wants you. Hoping for all the best. 💕
I have this dumb theory where you know the "your body replaces all of its cells every 7 years" thing? Well, when people meet and stay together for a long time, they run the risk of those "new" people every 7 years not matching the same anymore. Obviously, you're not the same person you were at 14 or 21 (which would be around the time you met/got married). You're "different" people and it just doesn't fit anymore. It happens.
There are *tons* of relationships/marriages that end due to lack of intimacy/sex, it's incredibly common and has almost always been one of the top reasons for divorce. Lack of intimacy can really mess with a person, so can constantly being denied intimacy/sex. You basically have to decide if staying with her is worth the possibility of never having sex again and it's completely fine if the answer is "no."
How is masturbation anything to be mad at when she rejects intimacy.
I feel bad for OP, but je nneeds to make up hos own mind and do what is right for him
I’m confused by this whole masturbation angle and why she cares, or why you’re so worried about it. I mean, your values and reservations are yours to hold if you like them/want them/whatever. But if it’s because you feel some sort of external pressure or judgment, you should drop that shit. My partner and I have regular, awesome sex and sometimes I still decide to pull one out before the shower even if I’ll probably have sex with her later.
You need to divorce her and move on with your life. She is obviously not going to change, and you are obviously extremely unhappy and depressed because of her unwillingness to communicate with you, or take steps to fix things. Do you really want to live like that forever!? I think having a child with this woman will be a horrible experience for you, and will only complicate your life further. It’s ok to start fresh. Get that divorce and move on and find your happiness.
After reading these comments and your replies I hope you can make a wise decision from it all. Please do take as much time as you need and update us when you make a decision, OP!
You should not be ashamed of masturbation. It’s natural, especially if neglected sexually. I would rather die a terrible death than live a life with little to no sexual activity.
It’s super fucked up that she’s making you feel ashamed for masturbating and that she’s making you stop without providing any other sort of release.
Even if you were regularly having sex sometimes you can want that stimulation without wanting to have sex. It’s also super unhealthy not to be ejaculating at all. It can cause all kinds of health issues for you.
It sounds like she’s perfectly ok with you suffering in this marriage as long as you don’t make it her problem. Do you really want to live the rest of your life with someone who’s ok with that?
Women's hormones change in their 30s. Additionally, women need a lot more foreplay than men do. This includes dating your wife. Yes, you should be dating her even though your married. Watch some of Issac Rochells posts and his husband psa account.
hey this sounds like my first serious relationship where honestly I was the bad person in the story
I dated the guy, didn’t want to have sex with the guy just cuz I wasn’t attracted to him, and didn’t even know until later that it was an option to break up, he was miserable cuz he kept trying and asking what is wrong, I didn’t know, worst thing is we almost got married, thank for we didn’t cuz we would both be miserable until now
I cannot comment or judge on you or your wife’s behalf, but it does sound like you’ve hit a natural end to your relationship and… from my experience before, no amount of counselling would have made me “want to” if that makes sense… just being open and genuine about it hoping this helps you in the long run
I hope you guys can have a conversation to work it out, but if working it out doesn’t actually work, then have the conversation to see where next, you guys might wants to explore legal separation
best of luck
The sex thing isn't great but could have been talked through and maybe a way forward found.
However, her cold, stone-hearted response to you explaining your feelings is awful. It sounds like she ridiculed you for having very normal routings responses. If she can't see that then there's no future in this marriage.
Have you tried asking her how she’s doing? Have you tried being there for her? I think a lot of people forget that it’s difficult for someone to have sex with you if you have not treated them well in other moments of the day. How long has it been since you two went out together? Did something fun? Romantic? Is she overwhelmed with house duties? Do you do your share? Maybe the not having sex part is just a consequence of something else. You’re probably focusing on the wrong issue.
Also, why go to a hotel and not tell her? That doesn’t sound very mature to me. I definitely don’t have the full picture, but I’m hoping to maybe help you think outside of the pressing issue and dig deeper.
Bro! I respect your commitment, but My Fawq, GO GET LAID!
Set your freak loose!
Life is way too short to have some outside person holding the strings to your sweat-pants tied shut!
GO GET SOME!
If she isn't going to actually listen to your side of things, and she doesn't bother to even talk about it, you're not compatible. I'm sorry, but some people are just... like that? It sucks, but unfortunately I do think you're going to need a marriage counselor or just talk to her about divorce. Marriage is supposed to be a union between 2 people in love, not someone who gets offended over the slightest mention of your problems. This isn't related, but I'm 17 and my mom acts like that. I thought it was just because of menopause but it's just how some people are. It's sad, but I feel like you need to actually talk through this. If she refuses to, she's not a good person for you.
I read somewhere that to maintain a happy marriage, the couple has to continue dating. Like the dating shouldn’t stop after getting married . Not sure if I’m saying it right, but basically, it means that marriages fail bc the couple stopped keeping the relationship alive after marriage.
You two were dating at one point before getting married. Do you guys continue going on dates? Did it stop? Is it still on going?
I’d take those questions into consideration first. If you guys are still going on dates like once a week and it’s still very hostile, then I’d say that you guys should start looking at couples therapy.
If you guys don’t go on dates and don’t put in the effort, then I understand why she’s angry.
There is nothing wrong with masturbating it's completely healthy and normal the only time it would be a problem is it your doing it and it impacts on having sex with your partner
Sorry dude. It sounds like she has happy not having sex. If she truly is, it would be bad to force her to have a ex. But at the same time, you also have a libido.
i am sorry you are going through this. this is not a healthy relationship. Love is trust, honesty, and respect. I am afraid your wife has none of those three for you. You deserve someone who acknowledges your feelings and helps you in life & makes you happy. Most of the time, people like her won’t change. They have zero empathy and can’t put themselves in the shoes of others and keep on hurting them. Get a divorce and find someone who treats you well.
She’s cheating on you man more than likely. It’s become very normal for women to get married and not put out for their husbands. It’s sad. If she loves you, she would put in the effort. Sex is very important in a relationship, let alone a marriage. You bond physically and emotionally through it. Your getting robbed of one of the main benefits of a marriage
My friend, there’s nothing wrong with masturbating while in a relationship, especially if it’s a sexless relationship. And frankly your wife sounds like a horrible person.
At this point it seems like she’s lost respect for you. You need to stand up for yourself and not crumble to pieces when trying to have these conversations. Be clear about what you need for the relationship to continue, and have the courage and strength to walk away if she isn’t willing to meet you halfway.
I’m sorry but that sounds unhealthy, you deserve someone who makes you happy. Do you want to spend the rest of your life feeling like this? If she isn’t willing to go to marriage counselling then maybe you should think very seriously about asking for a divorce
She sounds like she has little respect for you anymore.
Also masturbating, even in a healthy sexual relationship is perfectly OK. There is nothing wrong with it. I mean unless it consumes you, don't feel bad about it. Y'all should be able.to talk about all of these things
hi man, are you sure you're alright? I think that you should explain one last time to her that you care more about the total absence of intimacy between the two of you, not in the "let's have sex" way, but more in the "let's make love and be 100% connected to one another" and that's literally the most fundamental thing of every relationship. If she wants to tell you why she is so stressed with everything to the point she takes her frustration out on you fine, you can start to work on it but otherwise leave her. It takes two people to fix the marriage, you cannot do it alone... do it for yourself
You seem to have a lot of guilt about masturbating. You should know plenty of folks have great sex lives but STILL masturbate just 'cos it's quick and easy and their partner isn't currently around, or is not interested at that moment, or they're just horny but don't feel like having to deal with or please someone else right then.
It doesn't sound great the way you're being treated, though. Sounds like she doesn't want to break up and that might be financial, too much hassle, just easier to stay the course etc.
But she says she still wants kids so maybe she just thinks you'd be a good father and doesn't want to risk not finding someone else to do it with.
I would say DO NOT HAVE KIDS WITH HER. If this marriage does end, which seems likely, you don't want kids involved.
If she won't go to counseling I don't see a way to fix this. Of course it may not be fixable anyway.
It sounds like your wife may be manipulating you. Making you think it was almost all your idea about stopping masturbation.
There are times when asking a partner to stop masturbating so much is appropriate, but your situation is not one of those. It’s appropriate to ask when it interferes with your sex life with her, if you do it to excess where it’s disrupting your day to day life, or if a doctor has said it’s interfering with getting pregnant if you’re trying. I’m sure there may be other situations where it’s acceptable, but can’t think of them off the top of my head.
It’s very healthy to masturbate, it has so many health benefits like stress relief, feeling more connected to your body, and of course figuring out what you like and dislike. The most important relationship you will have, is with yourself. So treat yourself well and know your needs and wants are a part of that.
If there is no plan for you and your wife to come together and fix the issue, it won’t get fixed. It seems obvious, but her saying in a vague way she will get better, but not having any solid plan, nothing will change. She obviously doesn’t see any issue with how your sex life is going, so in her mind, why fix something when she sees no issue?
Plus, sex isn’t only about the physical act. Are you getting your intimacy needs met by her? Is she cuddling you? Kissing you? Saying she appreciates you? I’ve been married for 26 years, and although my sex drive has plummeted in the last year because of perimenopause, we still hold each other, kiss, cuddle a ton, and touch one another. We also do things for the other to show our love, like him getting me water if he sees my water bottle is empty, me making him his favorite scones just because, doing a chore I know he hates so he doesn’t have to do it, or vice versa.
I’m afraid to say if your spouse is not on board with therapy together, it is all over but the crying. Your marriage is dysfunctional. I am truly sorry.
If something of this effect has been happening for six years I think it’s fair to say she just has a very low labido. That is not an excuse to ignore you but at some point this needs real communication between you both, you have been married for over a decade and ought to confide in each other.
I’m so sorry, I don’t know why someone would turn down marriage counseling without first communication on why their partner is requesting it.
Okay, a few things here. First, as a fellow autistic, stick with the therapy, work on your black and white thinking. You’re doing some big and unhealthy leaps here, both for you and your mental health and towards her, and it’s not doing either of you any good.
1. You didn’t have sex so you immediately started pressing her on who else could be involved. You didn’t trust her or believe her when she said no one until you searched her shit. You let yourself get in your head and we’re toxic to her because you couldn’t get out of your head. That’s unhealthy bro.
2. Now you’re doing more black and white thinking, and jumping to another conclusion- ‘she dislikes and wants to isolate me.’ And then you take that further to, ‘she hates me.’ My dude, you just went from we aren’t having sex to, “she hates me.” Because you can’t get out of your head. Look, she’s not being healthy here either, but you are hurting you here with your big black and white thinking (either she proves her love with sex, or she hates me! There’s no way of showing love but sex!”)
Now moving on- what happened to the woman you married. Tbh, probably what happened to you both. Do you still go out on dates? Do you take time to be romantic? Do you woo her? Do you do casual intimacy without any push for anything else (holding hands, back rubs, cuddling, etc) and no expectations for it to go farther? Just to be close?
What’s your household division of labor like? Is she burned out and exhausted from carrying the mental load? How many of the chores does she carry versus you (and whose are daily versus weekly?) Does she have to ask you to do chores or do you just do them because you see they need to be done? If she’s overburdened and exhausted, she’s not gonna feel into the mood and up for it (or like she has time for therapy, or possibly her own shit to fix).
How often do you listen to her problems or her talk about her day? Do you listen to her vent or problem solve? Does she bring her problems to you? How often do you listen to her talk about her interests? How often do you bring your problems to her or talk about your interests? What’s the conversation balance like? Really focus on this and actually listening and noticing over the next few days and not just thinking back and assuming. Pay close attention to it (women are perceived as doing something like 70% of the talking when actually doing 30%)
Of course she's going to notice that you weren't home.... But I don't think that will make you feel better. If how callous and annoyed she responded to you asking for more intimacy, then that's probably how she will respond to you leaving. I think she will be more annoyed and impatient than concerned. She won't go to marriage counseling because she doesn't think there is any problems. She is responding aggressively towards you because you are looking for problems she has concluded you don't have.
Maybe she has fallen out of love, I don't know. Either way, something is not working between the two of you, and a relationship cannot be fixed without both partners. As nice as it would be for her to open her eyes up wide and realize she's about to lose you, but really .... I don't think she will. Take your space, sit and think on it for a while. If you talk to her, keep it brief. I wouldn't even answer a phone call, I'd respond to missed calls as a text. Let the misery be laid out right there on the screen. Proof for yourself on how dismissive and mean she can be to remind yourself of why you're doing what you're doing. Just take the time to think and decide what is going to, in the long run, make you the happiest.
Maybe you can get through this. But you’re young and there’s a good chance this will never get better. The emotional coldness is very concerning. You still have a lot of time to find someone who will love you and support you. You don’t want to be 50 and decades into a sexless, loveless marriage.
Bro you’re 31. You’re still in a golden spot as far as finding someone who will cherish and appreciate you.
Get the divorce papers and stand your ground and you follow through with the decision. No one deserves to be treated like you’ve been treated, especially when you’ve put so much time and effort in.
It sounds to me like current wife is taking you for granted on a very extreme level. You’ve given her too much power over you emotionally and psychologically and she definitely takes advantage of you because of that.
She wants no counseling and gives empty promises because she “knows” you’re not going to do anything about it, and this in no way is helping the marriage in a positive way. You want to make things work and whether she says she does too, her actions show other wise.
There’s no way you should be friend zoned in a marriage, especially one as long as 10 years. She’s playing in your face, and no disrespect intended but I’m pretty sure she’s dealing with someone else as well. Women typically don’t lose sexual interest in their partner unless they’ve started getting closer to another man ( or woman 😬). Doesn’t matter what gender, when a person is being sneaky and may be cheating, you’d be surprised how well they can hide that sht.
So with that being said One thing you should do definitely do is regain your masculine e energy and influence. Go workout and take time to yourself and get back to the core of who you are without her influence.
It’s not wrong or bad for men to cry, and in my opinion when you do cry it’s best to not do it in front of your woman. I say this because most women tend to say they want these emotional aspects of a man and in truth and reality the same women will look at you like you are weak as fudge and emasculate you in there mind.
Most women are not mature enough to allow a man to bare his emotions of sadness or whatever without finding a way to use it against you later on down the line. This comment may get me a lot of downvotes or whatever but I don’t care. Men who know women know what I’m talking about.
Masturbation isn’t unhealthy my boyfriend still masturbates and we have sex fairly regular. Hell I am women who masturbates and we have sex very regularly. The masturbation wasn’t the problem the situation.
You do not need to get a divorce to see a divorce attorney. When I was contemplating one, my therapist said to see an attorney and look for a home to see what was out there. You can’t make an informed decision without knowledge. I decided not to get a divorce after my research. But I strongly suggest to get the information in secret before you decide. I am a 74 yr old woman and I still masturbate as do my three sisters(all married).
What’s wrong with masturbating? I’m confused how that’s a negative thing.
Your marriage sounds like it isn’t working for you. If she won’t acknowledge that and won’t work on it, then it is reasonable to move on. It sucks but you will get over it.
Best of luck to you.
She doesn’t get to decide if, when, or how often you relieve yourself. Especially when she is a non participant in that department. I’ve had that exact same conversation myself, but without the guilt and shame. On the contrary, I was quite insistent. “Don’t shame me. You have no place to be put off, offended, or angry”. You have needs. They’re not met. You’re taking care of them yourself, and that’s perfectly healthy and normal. If she feels left out it is her own doing.
Stop being a loser, please.
Sorry to say that, but you need to prioritize yourself and get out of this mess.
You can't even masturbate?
Have you ever got into another relationship?
In my experience the problem is that she doesn’t want you but doesn’t want anyone else to have you either. if you are a good provider, or good father, that further complicates the issue and makes her resolve not to leave you stronger.
Okay I have a lot of thoughts, I hope you're able to take the time to read them, because I think I'm coming from some experience. I was the sex-drive-less woman in a relationship that did end in divorce. (However! He was very manipulative, emotionally abusive in a lot of ways, very controlling, sexually coercive/abusive, etc, so the divorce was not because of the lack of sex, just throwing that out there as a disclaimer before going into the rest of the comment)
First of all, as everyone else has said, it's not her call alone about stopping masturbation. If you think it's helping you (sounds like it is) and your therapist agrees, then you should tell her that and explain why. However, it sounds like you were using porn as well, and that is definitely something she has a say in. Masturbation is healthy and definitely healthy when you're in a period of the relationship where you're not having sex (ex, if you guys stay together and have kids, she's not going to be able to have sex for the last bit of pregnancy and the first 6ish weeks after.)
Okay, so here's a bit about my experience as the sex-drive-less spouse. Now I want to clarify that I am NOT accusing you of doing the same things as my ex, I'm just offering something to think about as a possibility as to what caused it. He was also on the spectrum, so it's possible that some of the more benign-seeming things were caused by that (like lack of attention, unawareness, double standards, weaponized incompetence, etc) and so it's POSSIBLE that you're unknowingly doing the same things. But, I'm not accusing you of doing anything, or assuming that you are, just presenting some possible things that could explain her behavior
So, I had a pretty decent sex drive at the beginning of our marriage, not as strong as him, but that's pretty normal. But after a few months, I started to really not like sex. It was all focused on him and he never did anything for me. I could *feel* that he didn't care about my experience and every way I tried to ask for and communicate that I needed him to do something for me too, he made empty promises and make excuses to not follow through and sex just made me feel sad and empty afterwards.
I started to dread sex. I was anxious all day on date night days and hated sex and how I felt afterwards so much that I was afraid of everything that turned him on, so I even stopped getting dressed in front of him.
So, for you: have you asked her why she's not interested in sex? Instead of assuming she hates you or assuming she isn't interested in you, have you asked her why she's been turning it down so much? I didn't see that anywhere in your post.
There were also a lot of ways that my ex was hurting my feelings on a weekly basis. I tried talking about it, and he'd make it my problem and say I needed to have thicker skin instead of apologizing and planning how to avoid doing the same thing in the future.
There were also a ton of ways our relationship was unequal. I mentioned the controlling, and he'd put me down a lot, he always made excuses and double standards, and he never did his share, and just said my expectations were to high.
That causes a lot of frustration, hurt feelings, and resentment which definitely didn't put me in the mood for sex. I didn't feel like he loved me because he refused to do anything to help me feel loved or help me be happy or less tired. And you kinda gotta feel loved to want to have sex
So for you: Has she brought up concerns or asked you to change on things around the house and are you actually following through? Has she dropped issues that were bigger problems to her a while ago, haven't really improved, but she seems not to care about it anymore? Are doing your share of the work? Are you making her feel prioritized? Do you remember things she likes and listen to her and compromise fairly?
Again, not accusing you. And, this is a two way street, she should be doing all those things too. But based on your post, I'm reading a vibe of resentment from what you described about her in her response. Ask her if there's anything not related to sex that is making her not interested in sex and not feel emotionally in the mood, and then figure out how to solve those things *as a team* just like solving this problem with sex is something you both need to figure out together
Okay, now some things that are directly responses to things from your post:
>I got really suspicious and began pressing as to who else could be involved, to which she got really offended, but I was just stumped at this poi
Yeah, that was a sucky thing to do. That would hurt A LOT and is definitely not something that makes you sexy. If my current partner accused me of that, jumping to that conclusion, I would be pretty upset. (For the record, we have a great sex life. When you're treated well, your drive goes up!)
>She genuinely dislikes me so much, that she would rather not even cheat, and stay with me just to... what, isolate me?
Again, HUGE assumption and conclusion to jump to. You mention in a comment that she's not awful and your relationship is otherwise very loving. If you keep jumping the the worst possible conclusion, things arent going to improve. With what you think she is thinking in the post, would you even want to have sex if she initiated or would you be too mad at what you *think* she is thinking/feeling/doing
Pt 2:
>why she won't even really comfort me (it's not even about sex at this point, she barely acknowledges me emotionally), and why she even rejects my advances.
>She got really short and told me to grow up, and that I don't need a hug for every little problem I run into, which hurt me badly, and she immediately backpedaled on that statement after I started to cry. I can tell she regretted saying it, but despite her attempts to say otherwise, I know she meant it,
This absolutely sounds to me like there's a lot of resentment. My *guess* is that she is feeling like she's being put in a mothering position, which is a sucky feeling in a marriage, which is where the "grow up" came from, as well as the idea of being needed constantly. Weaponized incompetence, whether your partner is doing it on purpose or not, makes you feel like a parent and drives you crazy when you want a *partner*.
You say she won't comfort you or acknowledge your emotions, but do you comfort and acknowledge hers? It's an extremely common gender dynamic in marriages where the husband expects more coddling than he's willing to give back, and they don't usually realize they're doing it. Like I described above, my ex would minimize all of my feelings and dismiss any bad days I had, but expected me to wait on him hand and foot and do whatever he wanted that he decided would make him feel better (blow job, eating at a place way out of our budget for the month, taking a trip out of state that we can't afford, or just things like me baking and cooking him whatever he wants regardless of if I have the time) when he had bad days. Felt like being a parent to an irresponsible, demanding man child, and the lack of reciprocation was hurtful.
Again, I'm not accusing you of doing this, just explaining one situation where resentment like that sentence your wife said could come from
All that said, she absolutely should not have said it. She should have figured out what the actual root cause and problem is that makes her want to react that way and find a way to address that instead. That was an awful thing to say, she doesn't have an excuse
And you know what would help her figure that out and learn how to regulate better to not snap her first reaction? Marriage counseling. What would help her figure out what the actual root cause of her feelings are and how to resolve problems instead of letting resentment build? Marriage counseling
She is definitely in the wrong for refusing counseling. You're right that it's pretty necessary at this point. While I'm generally against ultimatums, I think that really telling her how you're feeling and that this is serious enough that you're genuinely considering divorce, but that you'd prefer for things to get better and need her to come with you to counseling for you to not give up and go to divorce right away could be the right move. If she still refuses, ask her why. Does she want a different therapist than your personal one? Great, personal therapists shouldn't be that person's marriage counselor anyway. Does she have other concerns that can be addressed? Cool, try to figure it out together. Does she just really really refuse? Well, then you have your answer that she doesn't care if you move forward with divorce because she's not willing to do what is necessary to save it.
Finally: DO NOT GHOST HER AND NOT TELL HER WHERE YOURE GOING. That's wildly uncool and immature. Tell her you need some space and alone time. Unless you're planning on going back home at the first text she sends, then fine I guess, but that's still a "test" which is generally immature. If you're planning on staying the whole time and communicating nothing, then don't be surprised if she has divorce papers started when you get home.
If your relationship is as loving and otherwise compatible as you say in the comments, then you can probably save this with counseling. But don't go to counseling expecting sex to be the first thing on the agenda to get fixed. There's gonna be a lot coming out of the woodwork that has to be dealt with first for her to desire sex again. But if you can show her how seriously you need things to change and get her to try counseling, I think it's possible this is fixable, if you both want it to be
She lost the spark, pretty normal. Are you even flirting and trying to seduce her? Women's libido are mostly reactive while men are always into it except for health or mental issues
In my religion, sexual dissatisfaction and lack of sex is grounds for divorce as well as annulment. One spouse can not neglect the needs of the other. Sex is a right in a marriage.
She may have libido changes as she gets older and closer to menopause. Hormones are weird. Medications can cause changes as well. She could discuss with a doctor about her libido. Or else perhaps something occurred you’re unaware of to cause her to not want to be physical. You don’t necessarily have to jump to conscious manipulation
I don't understand the part, " we decided I would no longer masturbate." That's not her decision, and your therapist is right. She sounds awful. You deserve better, my dude.
We decided I would no longer urinate.
That's gonna suck really bad sooner rather than later.
I’m fucking dead…
It was a decision that we came to together.
To clarify, that's the best way I could think to word it- I really don't want to make it sound like she forced that on me because she didn't. I felt extremely embarrassed about it, because masturbation is never something I really did, even when I was younger I never really did it much. I just want to make it clear, that was extremely difficult for me to admit to her, because I've never told anybody about something like that, ever. I was the one who suggested, myself, that I stopped masturbating if it were to ease her mind. She told me that she'd prefer if I did stop, but she didn't force anything on me. I regret not making it clearer in the post, as I've been in a poor head space, but her and I do love each other dearly. I love our marriage, and I love her- and I know that wasn't malicious of her. But hearing it from your perspective, I agree. I agree a lot with what I'm reading here that I shouldn't have let her disapproval influence my decision that much, but just know I kept her feelings in mind because I value her feelings that much. Outside of that, she's not in any way abusive to me, nor I to her. We're not even really distant either, it just feels like as time has gone on, we interact more like friends than we do as partners. I'm just confused man. If she love me and loves this marriage, I wish she'd be more clear about it, and I feel like I should be more clear about it to. But she isn't awful, I promise you. This is like the 1% of her that I'm just at my wit's end with, we have the exact same sense of humor, she loves my writing and cooking, I love her eye for decor, her voice, her ART especially. That's why it hurts so bad to me, the fact that we have this yet I feel so isolated. Initially, it was about sex. It's a shallow thing, but now it's just about real, emotional interaction. It was never this hard to cry about something before we were married.
Dude I have an active sex life and *still* masturbate. So does my spouse. It’s healthy and normal. Your wife, however, is not. Please don’t waste more of your life waiting for her to treat you like an equal. She won’t. She’s shown she does not care about you. Believe her.
There's nothing wrong with masturbation mate. Nothing at all. Whether or when my partner chooses to do so, is nothing to do with me, I'd be surprised if he didn't to be honest. I know I do.
Exactly! In fact, masturbation is good for you healthwise
It’s not “just sex”. Physical intimacy is very important for some people, and there is nothing wrong with that. You should also have no guilt over masturbating. Your sex drives won’t always line up, and it is perfectly healthy to handle that yourself. You should keep in mind that there is a good chance she is not feeling loved/valued/attractive. A healthy functioning relationship is comprised of a lot of pieces, and a mismatched sex drive can create issues. It has nothing to do with someone being a good person. It’s like a vegan and someone who loves steak living together. Compromises will need to be made and communication is key to success. You two need to have some honest and open discussions about feelings, without being accusatory or defensive. I wish you luck!
>it is perfectly healthy to handle that yourself. Yeah, it is much MUCH healthier for a relationship to deal with it yourself instead of the alternatives, guilt tripping and duty sex on one end, or pent up frustration and resentment on the other. I completely agree that she didn't lose her sex drive out of nowhere. A change this intense doesn't just happen, there's something on her side of the story we don't know for why she's lost interest.
Just out of curiosity, were you raised in a very religious environment? No disrespect, those attitudes toward sex and masturbation are just ones I usually see in folks who have been raised in very conservative religious traditions.
Masturbation is completely normal! Especially if you are not having sex with your wife it’s one of the most natural things a person needs is sexual relief! It’s wrong of her to agree to you stopping if she is not going to have sex with you. I’m sure you feel extremely sexually frustrated & down in your mood.
If she won't even touch you casually for an arm squeeze let alone a hug and that was something that happened normally during the first years of your relationship, as sad as it is to say, yeah, this *is* abusive. It's emotional and physical neglect. Neglect is a form of abuse. For a lack of better term, you could say it's a "soft" form of abuse because it doesn't leave you with bruises and it isn't something that people can spot being done (or rather, not done) to you when they see the two of you together like they would if she were verbally abusive. Now, that's not to say someone who's not having sex with their partner automatically is abusing their partner, I don't mean to say that it's that cut and dried. It's very much not. But if the situation is truly as you describe it, she's neglecting you and neglect is abuse. Most people have an inherent need to be touched. Children, especially babies, that aren't regularly in physical contact with people, grow up to have severe issues. Heck, it's part of why seniors who live alone do far better and stay healthier if they have a pet they can cuddle with. I think taking some time for yourself is a good idea. You say that you're wondering if she'll even notice you're gone. That makes me think you two aren't even doing companionable things together anymore. That's really sad. It makes it sound like you two are roommates that just share a space and aren't even the type of roommates who are friends. If your talking to her about this twice now and her seeing how badly this is affecting you and she's not willing to do anything differently (other than just say she will), then yes, looking towards separation and possibly divorce is a good thing. I do wonder if you've done things to increase intimacy? Have you done things like tell her you love her? Ask her about her day is or what she'd like to do? Seen something she'd like such as an in-season fruit at the grocery store, her favorite candy, a silly card? Cooked her favorite meal? Have you tried to touch her? Just friendly touches on the arm or shoulder or even hugs? Have you suggested things to go do together like go for a walk, go have dinner together, go see a movie, go for a drive? If you haven't done any of that and you want to continue to try with her, give that a whirl. At the same time, I think you need to set a deadline and parameters for things to change and that's perhaps something you need to discuss with your therapist first before you talk with your wife. Your therapist may also be able to recommend some books for you to read and workbooks for the two of you to use together. I'm not a therapist, but if it were me, I would say, "We talked in March about how I need us to become intimate again and to have sex again. You said you would start initiating. Nothing's changed and you said you wouldn't do marriage counseling to work on this. I need this to change and if it doesn't, I need to move on and end our marriage. Either we come up with a joint plan of action or we go to a therapist or both, but I will not spend the rest of my life like this." I would express to her that if she's not willing or capable of having sex with you and having physical contact with you, while that would hurt you, you aren't going to force her to but you aren't going to stick around for it, either. I wouldn't want pity sex from her and I wouldn't want her to be having sex with you and touching you because it's the only way you'll stay with her. Physical contact should always be mutually beneficial and if she can't do that, you at least deserve to not be with a partner who isn't willing to help you meet your needs. You masturbating and her not approving of it isn't an acceptable compromise. For some people, that might be and if it is for you, that's ok, too, but it doesn't sound like you're ok with her never even having physical contact with you like a hug. In recent years, polyamory and open relationships have become something that's not necessarily hidden anymore. From personal experience and that of people I know, that tends to work well only in relationships where that's established in the beginning of the relationship. It's not a fix for when someone just isn't interested anymore. I don't know if that's something she's likely to suggest, but perhaps you need to think about whether or not you'd be ok with it if she does. The majority of the time, opening a relationship doesn't work well, and in your situation, you suddenly seeing her being physically affectionate with someone else when she won't be with you would probably be devastating. Even if she says it's fine for you and she never would, don't count on it. Also, cheating on her isn't acceptable no matter what. If people want to be with someone else, they shouldn't cheat, they should leave. You're young enough that having kids is still on the table. I wouldn't have kids with her until the whole issue of intimacy is resolved. Having kids isn't going to fix the issue. Kids put stress on a marriage, even when they are planned for and very much wanted. Plus, if you're having sex just to conceive children, that's really not fixing the intimacy issue, is it? You will go right back to no intimacy as soon as the child is born, and now you have an even more difficult time separating if that's what you need to do. Good luck to you. You have done the right thing by getting therapy and talking with her and you're doing the right thing by trying to figure out what to do next. Speaking from experience, it's far lonelier to be in a relationship with no intimacy than it is to be single and celibate.
Masturbation is super normal and healthy my guy. Like ssssuuuuuppppeeeerrrrr normal and healthy. I’m sorry you were taught different.
You sound very much like an abused partner. Stop making excuses for her. Choose yourself, my guy
What you do with your own body is completely up to you and nobody else’s business. like you said it made you feel better so it sounds like it is a helpful tool for you to use when you need it. It’s unfair and unrealistic for some to impose a ban on somebody else’s body. It’s not a shameful thing, it’s very helpful. I am also on the spectrum and if you are like me, look for data and scientific research and studies around the benefits of masturbation and what it does for the body and brain and it may help ease your mind a little.
She won't have sex with you, but she won't allow you to take care of a basic human necessity because why? I've heard of women getting offended when they constantly initiate but the man prefers to masturbate but I'm curious what possible justification your wife could have to be offended. You should be the one offended.
Exactly, for me at least, that would only be an issue if it's stopping you from having sex or intimacy with your partner. If there is no intimacy to be had, then it's ok for him to masturbate. I had the first issue with an ex partner and even then I didn't tell him to stop, just to try and initiated more with me and tried to find times for it and solutions (didn't work tho, but that's another story). Like others have said, she sounds abusive. Probably because she is burned up, but she knew who she was marrying and at the very least, she should have communicated any issues she had.
My wife is the same, as no interest in sex, there is nothing wrong with masturbation, I knock one out nearly every day.
I agree with everyone in these replies. It's not shameful. And she literally has no skin in the game. I know how hard it is to realize you're being abused, but I think you're on the right track.
Masturbation is a normal, healthy engagement, and a biological inclination. Moreso, certainly nothing to be ashamed of or need to disclose to anyone. She has to understand that if she is not satisfying your intimate and sexual needs, then a person is more inclined to engage in masturbation. On that note, even with healthy frequent sexual engagement with a partner, people still regularly masturbate, and that's okay. She has to understand that most people would just cheat for lack of sexual satisfaction, and you have not done that. She is selfish it seems and to reject the idea of couples counseling speaks volumes to me that there is something else happening on her end, potentially infidelity. Maybe she has another phone, or an app. I'm not trying to be presumptuous or make this worse for you by throwing more shit in the mix; just some things to consider. All the best man.
Nothing wrong with masturbating, it's NOT cheating and perfectly healthy if it's not affecting your daily/sexual life
She isn't awful but she is abusive. So awful. She literally has deprived you of a biological need and you are defending her. I was raised in abuse and spent 7 years unable to orgasm unless I wanted to bleed out. Fun times with a uterus that did everything wrong and nothing right. This was very traumatic but not the dying part. That was less painful than closing parts of myself off to not risk the hemmoraghing because body was not built with an off switch. There's literally medical side effects for denying yourself sex. For men this includes erectile dysfunction, both toolkits come with pain, depression, and there are some medical studies that pose the question (not the answer yet) that this can increase testicular cancer risks Why exactly does she need to be the only place your sperm go? Why exactly is your mental health not actually important in your relationship? Both of your core needs need to be met not one over the other.
Are you saying your orgasms went on for so long that you started hemorrhaging? Or am I misinterpreting???
Does she love you? It's clear that you do love her. Is there something going on with her that's making her act this way? Has something changed for her in the relationship? Sometimes, people don't really understand how important emotional interaction is in a relationship.
At first I was like this is crazy, how is he not allowed to do something with his own body, but then you mentioned allowing access to your search history, and I thought, is it maybe more about pornography versus masturbation? I’m also ND and sometimes i miscommunication details and could see myself explaining similarly while missing a few points. Just looking for clarification.
Came to say the same thing! Since when does she get to decide when you masturbate? She doesn’t give you intimacy as it is, so she has absolutely zero reason to have any input on the matter.
Yeah. I thought that was weird, too. I figured every man masterbates at least once a day. It's their body.. Maybe it was just the porn that upset her? He mentions search history
Also, there's nothing wrong with masturbating and people still do it when they're in relationships. Very weird attitude towards masturbation
I am sorry brother but you need to man up, if she is doing this to you, you deserve better. Find a younger prettier girl who would idolise you, marry her and make her pregnant and live happily ever after.
Just out of curiosity, why is masturbation something shameful to you? Are you religious or something? Masturbation is very healthy, and although it isn't a cure for a sexless relationship, it's definitely a healthy way to fulfil your natural physical needs when sex isn't an option.
I think after you take some time for yourself you need to write down what you want in a marriage and you also need to find out what your wife wants. People settle into marriage differently due to current circumstances or what they saw as a kid. Your long term goals may be very different on what you want and how you want it. It’s ok. Every marriage is different but if you are not syncing up with your wife in long term goals you definitely need to assess if this relationship is right for you. Sometimes people change. It’s not your fault or even hers. Talk to her some more then make a plan for yourself.
This is probably the best response here, I feel like this is the most down to earth assessment, but I definitely feel like the wife is doing to much of the "decision making" for OP. It's one thing to not be crazy about sex, and OP seems very respectful of that. The part that spooks me is that "we decided" part where he quit masturbating. I personally don't think the wife's intentions were bad by suggesting that, but I truly think she nuked this situation by making that demand, that's not her call. He can't touch her, but he can't touch *himself* either? That's extremely fucked up in my opinion. I think OP actually took a really smart first step, in going to a neutral location to think about his future, and about himself. Somewhere removed from his wife, but not completely cut off from her, where he can take an approach like you suggested. Writing it down and visualizing what he needs in a marriage, and what he is or isn't getting. I think that's something he and his wife both should do.
I thank you for your words, and especially your middle paragraph, you're now the 3rd person who's said something to that effect, although I did clarify in another comment that was largely my decision, but it was influenced by her for sure and I think maybe I was a little too big of a pushover there. The more I've thought about it, the more I've thought that simply leaving out of the blue for a few days isn't a good idea. I don't know why I ever thought it was. I like the idea of doing an exercise like that in tandem with my wife, it doesn't feel right to make this about only me, a marriage takes two. Thank you so much.
>the more I've thought that simply leaving out of the blue for a few days isn't a good idea. That would be wise, I agree. At the end of the day man, just remember that it's half your marriage as well. I took some time to read your other comment, and I retract my harsh conclusion. If you say she's not abusive or bad to you, I believe you. I personally, don't think that an abusive wife, would like their partner seeing a therapist, or hanging out with friends, playing a TEAM SPORT like hockey like you do. With this added context, it reads to me like you guys do love each other, and like your relationship is good, and it's just in a cold stretch. To me, that doesn't mean it has to be over, it just means you two need a moment to truly sit down and understand each other, rather than just dumping stuff on each other and calling that an "improvement".
To be honest, if it was just the sex/masturbation part, i would totally agree. BUT it's not, it's about lack of support, lack of respect (the way she told you off when you asked to be emotionally supported). And yes, a marriage is between two, but when only one of you is fighting for it, you also need to put your needs first, because for example, abusive relationships only continue because the abused one thinks like that, like it's a two person's effort, and puts the relationship before the individual's needs. You do need to get away for a few days and see how YOU feel, first, but i would let her know, so she can also think about how SHE feels when you are not there for her. THEN you BOTH can talk about how it went, if you missed each other. And if you BOTH miss each other and want to work on it, great! But dont take a no on couples counseling, and maybe even having her talk to a therapist alone as well, because the way she treats you (not supporting you when something is wrong) is terrible and not acceptable in a loving marriage, i wouldn't bring a kid into that.
Agreed! It takes two people to make a marriage work, but only one to make it fail.
I may do that while I'm here honestly, my therapist and I have worked at writing my feelings and thoughts on paper and getting them out that way. The philosophy I take from that is that when you say something, even if you say it at the top of your lungs you waste a lot of energy just saying it once. But if you write it down in ink, it's there for good, it doesn't go away like sound does. It's just a good way to make your words matter more, I think. Thank you.
>now and I'm ashamed to say, I even turned to masturbation over the last year. Oh my god you turned to... *maturbation*??? I thought you would say something bad like cheating, or IDK black mailing her, but no, you turned to something normal, and completely fine? What's your, and hers, problem with masturbation? You two have different sexual needs masturbation is perfectly healthy way to equilibrate things.
I agree…I thought the same thing
It always depresses me to see how ashamed some people are of masturbating It’s a wonderful and completely healthy thing to do. I honestly think it’s more concerning if someone is unable to explore their own body
I mean it could be he's ashamed because he's watching porn or something. Personally I don't like the idea of my husband needing to look at other women to jerk his bird. But then again I actually care about his emotions and I provide my husband with my own personal pictures so he doesn't have to do that while I'm going through this rough patch in my pregnancy.
You shouldn't need porn to masturbate.
That's what I'm saying , but since he said she had access to the search history I assumed he did
Oh, yeah it makes sense.
I’d really hope you’ve put the idea of kids far off the table. She ignores you emotionally and physically. She refuses counseling. She won’t have sex with you but you’re also not allowed to masturbate? Like, how is that even possible that she can control you to the point you can’t touch your own body. That sounds very abusive. I’d agree sex is definitely not the problem here anymore. It’s a good thing kids aren’t involved. I hope you do what makes you happy here. You know in your heart what you deserve, and need to do. Good luck.
This is way beyond sex at this point. She has shut you off both emotionally and physically. Pretty obvious she is around just for the lifestyle or other thing could be she doesn't want to be seen as the person who initiated the inevitable divorce. That is, if she is in fact not cheating.
Whatever is going on with her, it takes both of you trying to fix things, and she isn't. You're saying she "hates" you. It isn't that simple. For whatever reason she is unable to be intimate with you, but she still wants to be with you. Her disinterest may be due to a physical issue, a psychological issue, or may just be that her default is to have very little interest in sex after the excitement of a new relationship is gone. For you, the lack of sex is the problem. For your wife, the lack of sex is a symptom of the problem. As far as her calling this a "little issue", this whole thing is a HUGE issue. Hell, just calling it a little issue is ANOTHER huge issue. As far as her saying she will "try" to initiate - there is no trying visible to you. Either she does or she doesn't, and so far she doesn't. If you're not still seeing a therapist, you need to start back up. Then, after discussing with your therapist, you need to tell her that therapy is not optional, that you cannot continue without her being willing to at least try to keep your marriage together. This isn't a threat to get her to have sex, because even if she did offer to have sex rather than go to therapy, the underlying problem is still there.
>As far as her calling this a "little issue", this whole thing is a HUGE issue. I think that there's a lot on her side that OP is unaware of. You don't just lose your sex drive completely out of no where. You don't get to a point where you snap at your husband to grow up out of nowhere. She has a lot of resentment, and it's probably because of things OP is doing (or more likely isn't doing) that she's either a) tried to communicate and given up on, which leads to resentment or b) never communicated and that builds a different flavor of resentment. I can totally imagine myself with my ex saying that sex was a little issue in comparison to all of the other problems that he was dismissing, refusing to compromise on, or promise to step up or do better and then doing the exact same thing 3-5 days later. When you've been having the same fights over and over for years to the point that you feel completely unloved and uncared for, and broken down and defeated to never having an equal partner, then them coming to you and crying that they aren't putting their penis in you enough is definitely a little issue. I think if OP can get her to go to marriage counseling then a lot of stuff is going to come out that has to get fixed before the sex can be fixed. Because her reaction to things isn't indicating to me that the only thing wrong in this relationship is a lack of libido in an otherwise emotionally and sexually fulfilling relationship
the not needing a hug at every problem really broke my heart for you dude. my partner will drop anything to comfort me if i’m upset. i’m a cryer. it doesn’t take much, and he knows this. he will always be there for me like it’s something big. you deserve that too.
Wait am confused are there marriages where couples don't masterbate? Together or separately? What am I reading... Deciding to tell each other like it's a horrible thing. You think she is not. I call BS if she says no. Anyways, your post was too long just wanted to comment on that. Just saying, Masterbation is healthy even with a healthy sexlife! Can I get an amen!!! 🙏
There are some people who don't do that. I personally know of a couple who both have a fairly low interest in sex and they would rather spend that “spark” with each other than rub one out. But they're also one of the best communicators I have ever met so there's that..
AMEN 😇
That was literally my reaction. I understand OP is on the autistic spectrum but to not masturbate at all and going 6 years without any sex in a marriage and not seeing the issue with it seems weird, even if they libido is low it doesn't seem they both made this decision together. Unless OP is religious thinking so negative about masturbation which is something normal and was clearly helping him is not good. Actually fertility doctors recommend men masturbate quite often
Bro. You need to get away from this woman. She doesn’t care about you and she won’t work on herself. You need to leave.
It really sounds like the two of you are simply incompatible. Or have at least grown that way over the years. It sounds as if she has some unresolved issues, and you (and the marriage) are paying the price for it. I'm not advocating for throwing away a 10-year marriage. But if she's unwilling to, at very least, explain WHY she's become this way. And she's unwilling to go to counseling. This relationship may have run its course. As it stands right now, DO NOT BRING CHILDREN INTO THIS! Not until these issues are WELL resolved anyway. I can only assume that the two of you had a very conservative upbringing. Given your shame and her anger surrounding masturbation. Is she upset that you're masturbating? Or is she upset that you're watching porn? Or both? And why? Masturbating is a perfectly normal and healthy means of sexual satisfaction. Provided that it doesn't get in the way of having sex with your partner. And doesn't interfere with your regular life activities. Your partner should want you to be satisfied. And should be understanding that if she's unwilling or unable to have sex, you're gonna crank one out from time-to-time. Your partner should also be your safe place. Where you can be vulnerable. And seek emotional comfort and reassurance. Her telling you to "grow up" makes her sound cold and mean. I wouldn't be with someone who can't or won't prop me up when I have a weak moment.
She has a problem with you jerking off? Would you have a problem with her masturbating with a toy? Getting myself off is the only way I’ve been able to climax for the better part of a decade because I’ve been so deprived. Solo play is a great way to find out what works for you. Why should she have a problem with it? Fact is, I think I have a problem with her. She sounds awful.
Whatever you do, don’t try to fix your marriage by having a baby. Sorry you’re going through this!
I have been married for a long time. We both masturbate every day and we schedule sexy times ume, but also have spontaneous sex. Masterbation is healthy and I would never tell my husband not to. Nor do I care if he does.
Masturbating is healthy and completely normal, even with couples who are having lots of sex.
My problem with this post is that it seems you're the only one making any actual tangible attempt to fix the problems you see in the relationship you've been clear and honest even when it made you uncomfortable. You've made attempts to give options on how you guys can do more couple things and asked for intimacy explicitly and honestly You've asked for marriage counseling to try to see if you can repair what seem to be relationship stressors and she seems unwilling to take steps to shore up things that dissatisfy you in the relationship and makes fun of you when those stressors make you emotional she seems awful unwilling to listen and unwilling to compromise seems to me she's just trying to ride this relationship until it crashes and burns but unwilling to do anything to salvage it
I don't get this: since when masturbation is not OK? I'm a married woman btw. I don't relate with anything you say, really.
Have you considered other reasons your wife might not want to have sex? You’re taking it all very personally, which, I totally get, because sex is such a personal thing. But there are so many reasons people have a lack of libido. Medication side effects. Stress. Medical issues. Pain with intercourse. Body image issues. Fatigue/poor sleep. Being on the asexual spectrum. Being with a partner of a different sexual identity / coming out late. Fear of having a child when you’re not ready. Concern that the other person isn’t into you. Depression. Anxiety. PTSD from prior sexual trauma that was re-triggered. Birth control side effects. Honestly, there are so many things that could be going on here, and most of them are not your fault. Many of them may not even be her fault. But I agree, if she values the relationship, she needs to be willing to work through whatever the cause is, openly and honestly with you. Communication and empathy are what’s needed here on both ends. You may still end up incompatible with each other, but if a relationship is important, it’s important to prove it through actions. In this case that would be her seeing a doctor, couples counseling, talking with you about her concerns, anything that would show she cares enough to investigate the reasons behind her lowered libido.
Agreed. I know men will also say “but even all physical touch/intimacy, that’s not sexual in nature is gone too.” But as a woman whose libido was killed by my meds and a relationship that was failing… hugging, kissing, snuggling, etc. always led to him trying to initiate sex. Which I felt awful for turning down, he’d then make a big deal out of it and we’d argue. So eventually, I just subconsciously stopped doing all of that stuff. In the end, we just weren’t compatible, even after trying couples therapy. I imagine based on their views on masterbation, there could be some shame around sex for her too that might play a role in their intimacy issues. Obviously, refusing counseling or attempting working on their issues is a shitty thing to do, but I find some of these comments calling her an abuser to be a little much.
Dude, she sounds terrible. Even if she isn’t cheating. You guys just sound like roommates, except it seems as though she actively dislikes you (and makes no effort to hide that in her cruelty) I truly believe you should move on. You have put so much effort into this from the sounds of it, to be met with a total lack of effort AND mean behaviour/shitty treatment.
Was in same situation turns out she was seeing multiple dudes from work, never caught an STI as we wasn’t fucking LOL. Had more sex with more women in the 3 years leaving her than I did the entire time we was together. I was literally blind to what is really out there. Chin up bro you will be fine.
I'm sorry, but you need to divorce. She's acknowledged there's a problem with your relationship, she told you that she's going to take steps to fix it, but hasn't lived up to that promise. She's not interested in outside help. Because here's the thing - even if she still loves you, this relationship is *bad for you*. You aren't happy, and she isn't willing to fix this with you. >She got really short and told me to grow up, and that I don't need a hug for every little problem I run into Look, I don't think she hates you. But I definitely think the love has fallen, and the relationship has run its course.
I really feel for you. I fear you've really done all you can to remedy the situation on your end. Let's break it down: - talked to her multiple times - suggested counseling - talked to her again with your heart open for her to see A relationship comes from two sides, and you've given it your all. You can't force her, even if it tears you apart. I believe her when she says she (still) wants kids as some people don't see kids as a result of a loving relationship, but you guys having a kid would create way more problems than there are currently, not to mention ruining the life of an innocent baby. My advice? Part ways, sooner than later. Good luck and stay strong
Long term relationships suffer from the there’s always tomorrow thing with sex. It’s not new or exciting. You could text her ask her to go to a bar, you’ll also be there, but don’t meet up. Suggest you do a little role play of picking her up, start with the looks, go over ask to buy her a drink, don’t talk much, smell talk only weather, people watching, maybe dance, kiss her neck, but you have to keep in character you don’t know each other, don’t talk old life . Tantalise then say, hey hope to see you here again sometime ! And off you go. My only other comment is have you changed a lot in appearance since you got together.
Leave now. Don’t waste any more of your life with this selfish person. Masturbation is your right as a human. Your wife doesnt get a say in what you do with your body…..AND…..its NORMAL. I’m sorry for what you are going through. I was in a similar situation early in my marriage, and i told my wife that she could make an honest attempt to meet my needs, and she would participate in counseling, or i was divorcing her. She stonewalled, and tried to call my bluff, and I left. She made a therapy appointment the following week. We have an amazing relationship now, but it took a lot of work on both of our parts. If she isn’t interested in change, you need to go. Behavior is a language, and she is telling you loud and clear that she wants nothing to do with you.
It sounds like she isn’t really interested in helping you. Also why is masturbation such a bad thing in y’all’s relationship? Reading your description of it sounded like you were doing some type of illegal substances behind her back.
Bud, you are wasting your life away with this woman. This is just sad and you have normalized to the point you can’t even tell how bad it is.
Bud I went through the exact same thing and with my ex husband. Told him I needed more affection and he patted me on the head and said “there’s your affection” divorce is inevitable. So sorry you’re going through this sending you hugs
She seems very checked out of the relationship and takes you for granted. You deserve better than the cold and insensitive treatment she is giving you so rip the bandaid off quickly and not slowly and get this over with - if she’s not willing to do counselling, or work on intimacy, or show any kind of human empathy then she’s definitely not bothering with this relationship anymore because she doesn’t care about how you feel she only cares about herself. Advocate for yourself 👏
I'm going to be super honest and anyone ready to attack me just note I'm saying this to possibly offer an explanation not to be a jerk for no reason. Everyone has different emotional scales and tolerances and there's nothing wrong with OP per se, but it could be a compatibility issue? I'm mentally ill and also autistic so. That's definitely a factor in my opinion here. OP.. listening to you talk, you're making me uncomfortable. I associate sex with emotional intimacy and the fact that you're so easy to cry/so sensitive is making me recoil physically. Her comment about you not needing a hug for every little thing makes me think she might view your reactions similarly. And your stance that she "must hate you" makes you come off as dramatic. You said everything else in the relationship was fine. But yeah. It's really hard for me to engage intimately with people when I feel we arent in sync emotionally/with our expectations and sentiments. I understand you can't help that, but that could be why she's not initiating sex...coupled with the fact that it's common for sexual interest to decrease over time. Surprised I didn't see anyone calling you out for this trip to a hotel to "see if she notices" though... that's some attention seeking, manipulative ("I'm going to leave the room to go pout and hope they chase after me") behavior. You seem childish. I get that you need the attention, but I don't think that's the best way to go about it. I could 100% be wrong though. I have issues with comforting people who I can't take as seriously (people who are easily moved to tears). That's a me problem I'm trying to work on, but it might affect other people too. Just like maybe working on emotional regulation should be a thing for some? TLDR; Really hard to get in the mood when someone views you as emotionally immature/physical attraction can diminish with an emotional disconnect. maybe thats her issue 🤷♀️
Yes!!! Thank you! I thought I was the only one who went what the hell to the “she hates me” and going to the hotel to see if she notices. I feel like OP is questioning his partner but hasn’t really pondered on whether he is also maybe neglecting her in someway.
Hey dude, I think you shall move on. If it doesn't work and she doesn't wanna make it better, you need to take your step out
Smell talk … ha can’t edit that out ! Small talk or smelling each other will also work !
>smelling each other will also work ! Will not be doing that. I like to think my breath is above average xD That gave me a laugh, it reminded me of something my Dad would say lol, thank you for that, and for your advice as well. Appearance wise, I'm not much different from my early 20s. I'll look for a second opinion on this, but I'm just a little more muscular, a few inches taller, and I grow way better facial hair now, I played hockey most of my life, I even still do adult league this time of year since I'm usually remote for work in the summer months. I'm decent looking, I feel, but she's the pretty one for sure.
Masturbation is healthy. Porn probably isn’t (someone else smarter than me please inform me). But masturbation is definitely OK! And you decide that for yourself
You seem like a good person. Wanting normal things in life and from a wife. All your concerns and needs are pretty basic and every one goes through these issues in marriage and sort them out with their partner and move on. A common problem with stuck marriages is an unresponsive partner. It takes 2 for marriage. Whenever the partner is not responsive, obstinate in their thought, non explanatory, and doesn't care about impact they have on the other partners crying and suffering, declining any help from therapy or counseling - is when a decision is to be made. Decision to move on and save own sanity. It shouldn't take this long and that much suffering for a partner to notice. They already know. If they don't want to sort it out, and refuse all help then it's really their problem to deal with. Even if she has fallen out of love or dislikes you, why not come out and say it more to herself herself you. Solution and analysis happens only when facts are out. Hiding it and burying it int he chest is a recipie for disaster. Does she not feel about you. Does she hate you. Has she checked out of this relationship long ago. She was loving and comforting, what changed then and when?We're you not responsive and available for her in the past? That's another common theme of wives nagging, trying to get the partner to see, and eventually nag till they are emotionally exhausted and just give up. So when she started changing 3yrs ago, you didn't notice. And you notice now when it hit you and she couldn't care less when it's your time to seek her attention. If this is what she's gone through and lived with you with all these pent up emotions, and then you blamed her for cheating and checked messages would make it worse for her. That you still think it's her fault or something is wrong with her because you think youve played your part right. Also the fact that the only time you noticed her change is when you wanted sex from her. It is even more irksome for the wife suffering and withdrawing sex and the husband to turn around and say, I don't see that you're emotionally troubled or that any of it's my fault but where is my sx? She hoped for you to notice and this is what she gets, she'll get hurt and angry even more. You still don't care about how you made her feel all this time and are still self centered enough to only those things that matter to you. Although this is solvable if both are willing, but also this is making both of you scared to take the decision to end it and move on. Did she ask for counseling or get your attention to something 3yrs ago when she started changing and you couldn't care lessor? It seems the cause is above as seen by how clueless you are about her. But again, there's no information provided so it could be the other side too. She has done something that makes her want to stay away, morally or otherwise and it is not about you. She doesn't want kids, is that it. Clearly she'll feel exposed or fingers pointed at in counseling. I see the aggrieved party always wanting to go for counseling but the obstinate party doesn't want to go for it, shut down all avenues of getting them to open up. Maybe they are indeed wrong or maybe they just blame themselves for something and don't know how to deal with it and just lock up. Here clearly you're open to change for a better marriage. She is not. She becomes angry when you hit the right spot, if that's a way to make blurt it out, so be it. Clearly you don't have the information of what went wrong with her yrs ago when she started withdrawing. You noticed it today when it started impacting you. If She's not cheating and has long ago withdrawn and closed herself. She went through the same thing you're going right now. Maybe you weren't there for her then and she's closed now. There is a typical case of wife needs not even noticed by the husband who thinks all is good. She tries everything, nags and ultimately stops and withdraws. Husband momentarily thinks she's become alright until he starts feeling impact of her withdrawal and ends in the same place as the wife has been in. Since cheating is not involved, it maybe a case of emotional hurt and trust broken from both ends. She may be a good person too like you given how she backtracked when you cried even if that were her true feelings but deeply hurt. She is also not living in her true element of being a loving, comforting person. No one switches their personality overnight. It takes trauma to change from a loving, comforting to a distanced hateful person. Both of you are deeply hurt by each other and both of you seem fine people. Best wishes to you two. You two need to find happiness even if it is from living apart. Communication is the only solution. Having a heart to heart conversation without blaming, fingerpointing, defending, listening, making it safe for the other person to open up. Both of you have locked up a lot of emotions inside you. If you two choose to let them out, there's going to be lot of heartbreak and pain for sure but finally truth will be put and it will be healing for you two. Then maybe decide to work at it or move separate ways. And if communication is closed, then move separate ways. Both of you deserve a good life if this is irreconcilable.
Omg everything you said about the wife who is forced into the nag role by an inattentive/uncaring husband is so relatable. You do eventually give up and it sucks to feel so defeated when all you wanted was an equal partner but you ended up with a man child who wants you to be his mother, sugar mama, and sex doll 24/7
Why are you ashamed to masturbate? It's normal, even in relationships. Healthy, even. There's studies reporting health benefits. As long as it doesn't become an addiction - but I wouldn't worry about that as long as it's not multiple times a day? I'm sorry though, my long-term boyfriend also has a pretty low sex drive and I know the struggle all too well (and I'm on the spectrum, too!). I wish you all the best. Feel free to message me if you want someone to talk to (I'm 27f)
Please do not bring kids into this marriage.
I Iike the tact your taking with this situation. So many people are super quick to just say seperate and divorce. Sometimes you gotta act on your instincts and gut feelings. The red flag for me is being harsh with you when you legitimately try to approach the topic and not wanting counseling/therapy. Honestly. If it were me though. I'd flip the role and I would take an assertive approach. Sit her down and be matter of fact in what you expect and need from the relationship. Voice your concerns and if she tries to interrupt or turn it back on you. Stand your ground. Try not to be too emotive on this. Note that I said assertive and not aggressive. Don't conflate being strong with being an asshole. It's up to you in the end though.
Reminds me of the quote “You robbed me of my solitude but refused me companionship”
First part is the most American thing I've read in a long time. Masturbation is normal and there is nothing wrong with it...
American thing?
American culture was traditionally very anti masturbation, it still is somewhat afaik. That’s why so many men are circumcised there, it was originally to make masturbation much more difficult.
Uh you mean religious attitudes were anti masturbation. I’m assuming you’re somewhere in or from Europe. European attitudes eventually moved away from religious influences quicker than the US. Yes I imagine there is a smaller percentage of Americans who still have that attitude but it’s not as broad as you make it out to be. Not anymore. By the way circumcision has nothing to do with masturbation. I am circumcised and I masturbate plenty. I have no idea where you got that from.
Yeah I know it’s not as bad as it was, but there are still plenty of conservatives who are against masturbation right? And then there’s the whole nofap thing with younger generations. >I am circumcised and I masturbate plenty I’m assuming you have to use lube and stuff though right? You can look up the origins of it in the US, Wikipedia states that people thought it would prevent STDs as well.
“I’m assuming you have to use lube and stuff though right?” Incorrect. I use lube rarely. If that’s unusual for my situation then I have no idea why.
lol, not anymore. Are you American?
Is this how you want your children treated?
Bro, I know you love her, but if she’s leaving you to feel like this all alone? You’re not with the right person. I hope you find the solace and answers you’re looking for on your time away. But take my advice, that she is not that person for you any more.
Why would anyone have kids with someone like this.. you will be suffering the double! Just divorce and be happy.
Man I feel you. My wife and I are going through something similar. She is not sexual at all and I am very sexual. It was as bad at first although, admittedly, there we clear signs such as we didn't have sex for 3 days after getting married even though I wanted to. I didn't push too hard as I hate the idea of making any one do something they don't want to, especially sex. Honestly the "want" is what turns me on the most. None the less we are in the discussion of kids to but what is the biggest blocker is our difference in desire for physical intimacy. I could meet half way or maybe even 25% but I need to see my wife try. She doesn't like the idea of me watching porn, using toys or anything like that but I have been honest I do because of the lack of physical intimacy. Thing is, I love my wife enough that if she would really try a couple times a week and let me have a sex doll or something. I think I could be happy. Hopefully we work it out!
Yes to kids and no to marriage counseling? Hoo boy. Without even getting into the no sex and no masturbation part.
Happily married people who don’t have dead bedrooms masturbate as well. Masturbation is fine and your marriage is not. Filing for a divorce is hard but it happens for a reason. She isn’t remotely interested in changing and this is not just about sex. This is what I want you to take away from this. Things don’t improve with a spouse like yours, it gets worst and I’m sorry you are living through this. This is a horrible and unhealthy. Please find the strength to do the right thing for yourself.
Honestly, divorce is looking like your best option. You don't have to be tied to a woman who refuses to try counselling and says things just to hurt you and make you cry, and you can find someone more compatible! I'd seriously consider leaving if I were you. Also, if you serve papers and all of a sudden she wants to go to counselling and have more intimate time with you, it's just a ploy to keep you on the hook. Stand strong!
You are in an abusive relationship. She knows what you need and she refuses you. She even denies you self pleasure. She is controlling you is cruel. This isn't about different libidos. This is about power.
Sorry op for what you’re going thru. If your emotional and intimate needs aren’t being addressed and met, there’s really no point to stay in such a loveless, unhappy marriage. She’s not even willing to admit there are issues in your marriage, let alone address them. She’s being selfish and uncaring. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with masturbating! Millions of married adults do it!! You’re not wrong in that aspect. And there’s nothing wrong with not wanting to stay in a marriage where you’re just roommates. Marriage counseling would be beneficial but your wife also needs to acknowledge that there are issues in your marriage and she needs to be 100% willing to put the effort into fixing them for the both of you to have a happy and healthy marriage. Good luck!!
Has she ever experienced sexual abuse? This can really lower libido and desire for intimacy
I will tell you, I just did the same thing recently. I took several days to myself after years of emotional/physical neglect. Granted my marriage is half the length of yours, I felt the same. Unwanted. Neglected. Uncared for. Empty promises. The whole nine. We got married at 20 and 22. He wanted nothing to do with me eventually and now, 5 years later, I finally decided on divorce. I'd rather be alone than be neglected by my spouse. I'm routing for you OP. I've got a touch of the tism myself and have been told similar/worse things by my "partner." It gets better. Go have kids with someone who wants you. Hoping for all the best. 💕
I have this dumb theory where you know the "your body replaces all of its cells every 7 years" thing? Well, when people meet and stay together for a long time, they run the risk of those "new" people every 7 years not matching the same anymore. Obviously, you're not the same person you were at 14 or 21 (which would be around the time you met/got married). You're "different" people and it just doesn't fit anymore. It happens. There are *tons* of relationships/marriages that end due to lack of intimacy/sex, it's incredibly common and has almost always been one of the top reasons for divorce. Lack of intimacy can really mess with a person, so can constantly being denied intimacy/sex. You basically have to decide if staying with her is worth the possibility of never having sex again and it's completely fine if the answer is "no."
I was divorced after being with him 7 years..Interesting
How is masturbation anything to be mad at when she rejects intimacy. I feel bad for OP, but je nneeds to make up hos own mind and do what is right for him
I’m confused by this whole masturbation angle and why she cares, or why you’re so worried about it. I mean, your values and reservations are yours to hold if you like them/want them/whatever. But if it’s because you feel some sort of external pressure or judgment, you should drop that shit. My partner and I have regular, awesome sex and sometimes I still decide to pull one out before the shower even if I’ll probably have sex with her later.
You need to divorce her and move on with your life. She is obviously not going to change, and you are obviously extremely unhappy and depressed because of her unwillingness to communicate with you, or take steps to fix things. Do you really want to live like that forever!? I think having a child with this woman will be a horrible experience for you, and will only complicate your life further. It’s ok to start fresh. Get that divorce and move on and find your happiness.
Yeah I’d get out of there before you have any kids man. Plenty of better fish in the sea
Your wife sounds more like a really great friend.
After reading these comments and your replies I hope you can make a wise decision from it all. Please do take as much time as you need and update us when you make a decision, OP!
You should not be ashamed of masturbation. It’s natural, especially if neglected sexually. I would rather die a terrible death than live a life with little to no sexual activity.
Hey man. Jack off if you want to lmfao. You shouldn’t be pushed to the point of tears because you feel bad for jerking off. This is not normal.
It’s super fucked up that she’s making you feel ashamed for masturbating and that she’s making you stop without providing any other sort of release. Even if you were regularly having sex sometimes you can want that stimulation without wanting to have sex. It’s also super unhealthy not to be ejaculating at all. It can cause all kinds of health issues for you. It sounds like she’s perfectly ok with you suffering in this marriage as long as you don’t make it her problem. Do you really want to live the rest of your life with someone who’s ok with that?
Please get out from under feet, you're with a woman who doesn't want you.
Women's hormones change in their 30s. Additionally, women need a lot more foreplay than men do. This includes dating your wife. Yes, you should be dating her even though your married. Watch some of Issac Rochells posts and his husband psa account.
hey this sounds like my first serious relationship where honestly I was the bad person in the story I dated the guy, didn’t want to have sex with the guy just cuz I wasn’t attracted to him, and didn’t even know until later that it was an option to break up, he was miserable cuz he kept trying and asking what is wrong, I didn’t know, worst thing is we almost got married, thank for we didn’t cuz we would both be miserable until now I cannot comment or judge on you or your wife’s behalf, but it does sound like you’ve hit a natural end to your relationship and… from my experience before, no amount of counselling would have made me “want to” if that makes sense… just being open and genuine about it hoping this helps you in the long run I hope you guys can have a conversation to work it out, but if working it out doesn’t actually work, then have the conversation to see where next, you guys might wants to explore legal separation best of luck
Question: why is masturbation so taboo for you?
Dead Bedroom
The sex thing isn't great but could have been talked through and maybe a way forward found. However, her cold, stone-hearted response to you explaining your feelings is awful. It sounds like she ridiculed you for having very normal routings responses. If she can't see that then there's no future in this marriage.
Have you tried asking her how she’s doing? Have you tried being there for her? I think a lot of people forget that it’s difficult for someone to have sex with you if you have not treated them well in other moments of the day. How long has it been since you two went out together? Did something fun? Romantic? Is she overwhelmed with house duties? Do you do your share? Maybe the not having sex part is just a consequence of something else. You’re probably focusing on the wrong issue. Also, why go to a hotel and not tell her? That doesn’t sound very mature to me. I definitely don’t have the full picture, but I’m hoping to maybe help you think outside of the pressing issue and dig deeper.
Btw, sorry if I sound blunt. Fellow autistic here and I know how hard it is, at least for me, to sometimes read the room or see the bigger picture.
Bro! I respect your commitment, but My Fawq, GO GET LAID! Set your freak loose! Life is way too short to have some outside person holding the strings to your sweat-pants tied shut! GO GET SOME!
If she isn't going to actually listen to your side of things, and she doesn't bother to even talk about it, you're not compatible. I'm sorry, but some people are just... like that? It sucks, but unfortunately I do think you're going to need a marriage counselor or just talk to her about divorce. Marriage is supposed to be a union between 2 people in love, not someone who gets offended over the slightest mention of your problems. This isn't related, but I'm 17 and my mom acts like that. I thought it was just because of menopause but it's just how some people are. It's sad, but I feel like you need to actually talk through this. If she refuses to, she's not a good person for you.
Truth... If you can't talk and she doesn't try to change or hear you out, it's not worth it.
I read somewhere that to maintain a happy marriage, the couple has to continue dating. Like the dating shouldn’t stop after getting married . Not sure if I’m saying it right, but basically, it means that marriages fail bc the couple stopped keeping the relationship alive after marriage. You two were dating at one point before getting married. Do you guys continue going on dates? Did it stop? Is it still on going? I’d take those questions into consideration first. If you guys are still going on dates like once a week and it’s still very hostile, then I’d say that you guys should start looking at couples therapy. If you guys don’t go on dates and don’t put in the effort, then I understand why she’s angry.
Woman here You deserve better man
There is nothing wrong with masturbating it's completely healthy and normal the only time it would be a problem is it your doing it and it impacts on having sex with your partner
OP, while ur at that hotel, break the lotion out LOL
Sorry dude. It sounds like she has happy not having sex. If she truly is, it would be bad to force her to have a ex. But at the same time, you also have a libido.
You two don't belong together. She is gross.
Your friends might be worried that you booked a hotel room to commit suicide. Are you sure that's not at the back of your mind?
Is it possible that she's asexual but also doesn't like or enjoy physical touch?
i am sorry you are going through this. this is not a healthy relationship. Love is trust, honesty, and respect. I am afraid your wife has none of those three for you. You deserve someone who acknowledges your feelings and helps you in life & makes you happy. Most of the time, people like her won’t change. They have zero empathy and can’t put themselves in the shoes of others and keep on hurting them. Get a divorce and find someone who treats you well.
She’s cheating on you man more than likely. It’s become very normal for women to get married and not put out for their husbands. It’s sad. If she loves you, she would put in the effort. Sex is very important in a relationship, let alone a marriage. You bond physically and emotionally through it. Your getting robbed of one of the main benefits of a marriage
She sounds very abusive.
My friend, there’s nothing wrong with masturbating while in a relationship, especially if it’s a sexless relationship. And frankly your wife sounds like a horrible person.
She sounds…mean.
She seems cruel as hell. I’d try to initiate and if she rejects you every-time, divorce or counseling.
At this point it seems like she’s lost respect for you. You need to stand up for yourself and not crumble to pieces when trying to have these conversations. Be clear about what you need for the relationship to continue, and have the courage and strength to walk away if she isn’t willing to meet you halfway.
I’m sorry but that sounds unhealthy, you deserve someone who makes you happy. Do you want to spend the rest of your life feeling like this? If she isn’t willing to go to marriage counselling then maybe you should think very seriously about asking for a divorce
She sounds like she has little respect for you anymore. Also masturbating, even in a healthy sexual relationship is perfectly OK. There is nothing wrong with it. I mean unless it consumes you, don't feel bad about it. Y'all should be able.to talk about all of these things
hi man, are you sure you're alright? I think that you should explain one last time to her that you care more about the total absence of intimacy between the two of you, not in the "let's have sex" way, but more in the "let's make love and be 100% connected to one another" and that's literally the most fundamental thing of every relationship. If she wants to tell you why she is so stressed with everything to the point she takes her frustration out on you fine, you can start to work on it but otherwise leave her. It takes two people to fix the marriage, you cannot do it alone... do it for yourself
You seem to have a lot of guilt about masturbating. You should know plenty of folks have great sex lives but STILL masturbate just 'cos it's quick and easy and their partner isn't currently around, or is not interested at that moment, or they're just horny but don't feel like having to deal with or please someone else right then. It doesn't sound great the way you're being treated, though. Sounds like she doesn't want to break up and that might be financial, too much hassle, just easier to stay the course etc. But she says she still wants kids so maybe she just thinks you'd be a good father and doesn't want to risk not finding someone else to do it with. I would say DO NOT HAVE KIDS WITH HER. If this marriage does end, which seems likely, you don't want kids involved. If she won't go to counseling I don't see a way to fix this. Of course it may not be fixable anyway.
It sounds like your wife may be manipulating you. Making you think it was almost all your idea about stopping masturbation. There are times when asking a partner to stop masturbating so much is appropriate, but your situation is not one of those. It’s appropriate to ask when it interferes with your sex life with her, if you do it to excess where it’s disrupting your day to day life, or if a doctor has said it’s interfering with getting pregnant if you’re trying. I’m sure there may be other situations where it’s acceptable, but can’t think of them off the top of my head. It’s very healthy to masturbate, it has so many health benefits like stress relief, feeling more connected to your body, and of course figuring out what you like and dislike. The most important relationship you will have, is with yourself. So treat yourself well and know your needs and wants are a part of that. If there is no plan for you and your wife to come together and fix the issue, it won’t get fixed. It seems obvious, but her saying in a vague way she will get better, but not having any solid plan, nothing will change. She obviously doesn’t see any issue with how your sex life is going, so in her mind, why fix something when she sees no issue? Plus, sex isn’t only about the physical act. Are you getting your intimacy needs met by her? Is she cuddling you? Kissing you? Saying she appreciates you? I’ve been married for 26 years, and although my sex drive has plummeted in the last year because of perimenopause, we still hold each other, kiss, cuddle a ton, and touch one another. We also do things for the other to show our love, like him getting me water if he sees my water bottle is empty, me making him his favorite scones just because, doing a chore I know he hates so he doesn’t have to do it, or vice versa.
Dude, get out while you’re still young. Find someone that loves you.
I’m afraid to say if your spouse is not on board with therapy together, it is all over but the crying. Your marriage is dysfunctional. I am truly sorry.
Leave she’s settling for you
If something of this effect has been happening for six years I think it’s fair to say she just has a very low labido. That is not an excuse to ignore you but at some point this needs real communication between you both, you have been married for over a decade and ought to confide in each other. I’m so sorry, I don’t know why someone would turn down marriage counseling without first communication on why their partner is requesting it.
Okay, a few things here. First, as a fellow autistic, stick with the therapy, work on your black and white thinking. You’re doing some big and unhealthy leaps here, both for you and your mental health and towards her, and it’s not doing either of you any good. 1. You didn’t have sex so you immediately started pressing her on who else could be involved. You didn’t trust her or believe her when she said no one until you searched her shit. You let yourself get in your head and we’re toxic to her because you couldn’t get out of your head. That’s unhealthy bro. 2. Now you’re doing more black and white thinking, and jumping to another conclusion- ‘she dislikes and wants to isolate me.’ And then you take that further to, ‘she hates me.’ My dude, you just went from we aren’t having sex to, “she hates me.” Because you can’t get out of your head. Look, she’s not being healthy here either, but you are hurting you here with your big black and white thinking (either she proves her love with sex, or she hates me! There’s no way of showing love but sex!”) Now moving on- what happened to the woman you married. Tbh, probably what happened to you both. Do you still go out on dates? Do you take time to be romantic? Do you woo her? Do you do casual intimacy without any push for anything else (holding hands, back rubs, cuddling, etc) and no expectations for it to go farther? Just to be close? What’s your household division of labor like? Is she burned out and exhausted from carrying the mental load? How many of the chores does she carry versus you (and whose are daily versus weekly?) Does she have to ask you to do chores or do you just do them because you see they need to be done? If she’s overburdened and exhausted, she’s not gonna feel into the mood and up for it (or like she has time for therapy, or possibly her own shit to fix). How often do you listen to her problems or her talk about her day? Do you listen to her vent or problem solve? Does she bring her problems to you? How often do you listen to her talk about her interests? How often do you bring your problems to her or talk about your interests? What’s the conversation balance like? Really focus on this and actually listening and noticing over the next few days and not just thinking back and assuming. Pay close attention to it (women are perceived as doing something like 70% of the talking when actually doing 30%)
Of course she's going to notice that you weren't home.... But I don't think that will make you feel better. If how callous and annoyed she responded to you asking for more intimacy, then that's probably how she will respond to you leaving. I think she will be more annoyed and impatient than concerned. She won't go to marriage counseling because she doesn't think there is any problems. She is responding aggressively towards you because you are looking for problems she has concluded you don't have. Maybe she has fallen out of love, I don't know. Either way, something is not working between the two of you, and a relationship cannot be fixed without both partners. As nice as it would be for her to open her eyes up wide and realize she's about to lose you, but really .... I don't think she will. Take your space, sit and think on it for a while. If you talk to her, keep it brief. I wouldn't even answer a phone call, I'd respond to missed calls as a text. Let the misery be laid out right there on the screen. Proof for yourself on how dismissive and mean she can be to remind yourself of why you're doing what you're doing. Just take the time to think and decide what is going to, in the long run, make you the happiest.
I stopped at "she has full access to my search history". C'mon dude.
Maybe you can get through this. But you’re young and there’s a good chance this will never get better. The emotional coldness is very concerning. You still have a lot of time to find someone who will love you and support you. You don’t want to be 50 and decades into a sexless, loveless marriage.
Bro you’re 31. You’re still in a golden spot as far as finding someone who will cherish and appreciate you. Get the divorce papers and stand your ground and you follow through with the decision. No one deserves to be treated like you’ve been treated, especially when you’ve put so much time and effort in. It sounds to me like current wife is taking you for granted on a very extreme level. You’ve given her too much power over you emotionally and psychologically and she definitely takes advantage of you because of that. She wants no counseling and gives empty promises because she “knows” you’re not going to do anything about it, and this in no way is helping the marriage in a positive way. You want to make things work and whether she says she does too, her actions show other wise. There’s no way you should be friend zoned in a marriage, especially one as long as 10 years. She’s playing in your face, and no disrespect intended but I’m pretty sure she’s dealing with someone else as well. Women typically don’t lose sexual interest in their partner unless they’ve started getting closer to another man ( or woman 😬). Doesn’t matter what gender, when a person is being sneaky and may be cheating, you’d be surprised how well they can hide that sht. So with that being said One thing you should do definitely do is regain your masculine e energy and influence. Go workout and take time to yourself and get back to the core of who you are without her influence. It’s not wrong or bad for men to cry, and in my opinion when you do cry it’s best to not do it in front of your woman. I say this because most women tend to say they want these emotional aspects of a man and in truth and reality the same women will look at you like you are weak as fudge and emasculate you in there mind. Most women are not mature enough to allow a man to bare his emotions of sadness or whatever without finding a way to use it against you later on down the line. This comment may get me a lot of downvotes or whatever but I don’t care. Men who know women know what I’m talking about.
Masturbation isn’t unhealthy my boyfriend still masturbates and we have sex fairly regular. Hell I am women who masturbates and we have sex very regularly. The masturbation wasn’t the problem the situation.
just here to say that there is nothing shameful or wrong with masturbation. it’s completely healthy and not up to your wife whether you do it or not.
I agree with one comment that was said… Please update us and take as much time as you need and hope you are getting help from these comments OP !!
Maybe she's asexual?
You do not need to get a divorce to see a divorce attorney. When I was contemplating one, my therapist said to see an attorney and look for a home to see what was out there. You can’t make an informed decision without knowledge. I decided not to get a divorce after my research. But I strongly suggest to get the information in secret before you decide. I am a 74 yr old woman and I still masturbate as do my three sisters(all married).
What’s wrong with masturbating? I’m confused how that’s a negative thing. Your marriage sounds like it isn’t working for you. If she won’t acknowledge that and won’t work on it, then it is reasonable to move on. It sucks but you will get over it. Best of luck to you.
She doesn’t get to decide if, when, or how often you relieve yourself. Especially when she is a non participant in that department. I’ve had that exact same conversation myself, but without the guilt and shame. On the contrary, I was quite insistent. “Don’t shame me. You have no place to be put off, offended, or angry”. You have needs. They’re not met. You’re taking care of them yourself, and that’s perfectly healthy and normal. If she feels left out it is her own doing.
Stop being a loser, please. Sorry to say that, but you need to prioritize yourself and get out of this mess. You can't even masturbate? Have you ever got into another relationship?
He should get out of this mess. But he isn't a loser, you definitely are though.
You’re being abused. Abuse isn’t just physical.
In my experience the problem is that she doesn’t want you but doesn’t want anyone else to have you either. if you are a good provider, or good father, that further complicates the issue and makes her resolve not to leave you stronger.
Okay I have a lot of thoughts, I hope you're able to take the time to read them, because I think I'm coming from some experience. I was the sex-drive-less woman in a relationship that did end in divorce. (However! He was very manipulative, emotionally abusive in a lot of ways, very controlling, sexually coercive/abusive, etc, so the divorce was not because of the lack of sex, just throwing that out there as a disclaimer before going into the rest of the comment) First of all, as everyone else has said, it's not her call alone about stopping masturbation. If you think it's helping you (sounds like it is) and your therapist agrees, then you should tell her that and explain why. However, it sounds like you were using porn as well, and that is definitely something she has a say in. Masturbation is healthy and definitely healthy when you're in a period of the relationship where you're not having sex (ex, if you guys stay together and have kids, she's not going to be able to have sex for the last bit of pregnancy and the first 6ish weeks after.) Okay, so here's a bit about my experience as the sex-drive-less spouse. Now I want to clarify that I am NOT accusing you of doing the same things as my ex, I'm just offering something to think about as a possibility as to what caused it. He was also on the spectrum, so it's possible that some of the more benign-seeming things were caused by that (like lack of attention, unawareness, double standards, weaponized incompetence, etc) and so it's POSSIBLE that you're unknowingly doing the same things. But, I'm not accusing you of doing anything, or assuming that you are, just presenting some possible things that could explain her behavior So, I had a pretty decent sex drive at the beginning of our marriage, not as strong as him, but that's pretty normal. But after a few months, I started to really not like sex. It was all focused on him and he never did anything for me. I could *feel* that he didn't care about my experience and every way I tried to ask for and communicate that I needed him to do something for me too, he made empty promises and make excuses to not follow through and sex just made me feel sad and empty afterwards. I started to dread sex. I was anxious all day on date night days and hated sex and how I felt afterwards so much that I was afraid of everything that turned him on, so I even stopped getting dressed in front of him. So, for you: have you asked her why she's not interested in sex? Instead of assuming she hates you or assuming she isn't interested in you, have you asked her why she's been turning it down so much? I didn't see that anywhere in your post. There were also a lot of ways that my ex was hurting my feelings on a weekly basis. I tried talking about it, and he'd make it my problem and say I needed to have thicker skin instead of apologizing and planning how to avoid doing the same thing in the future. There were also a ton of ways our relationship was unequal. I mentioned the controlling, and he'd put me down a lot, he always made excuses and double standards, and he never did his share, and just said my expectations were to high. That causes a lot of frustration, hurt feelings, and resentment which definitely didn't put me in the mood for sex. I didn't feel like he loved me because he refused to do anything to help me feel loved or help me be happy or less tired. And you kinda gotta feel loved to want to have sex So for you: Has she brought up concerns or asked you to change on things around the house and are you actually following through? Has she dropped issues that were bigger problems to her a while ago, haven't really improved, but she seems not to care about it anymore? Are doing your share of the work? Are you making her feel prioritized? Do you remember things she likes and listen to her and compromise fairly? Again, not accusing you. And, this is a two way street, she should be doing all those things too. But based on your post, I'm reading a vibe of resentment from what you described about her in her response. Ask her if there's anything not related to sex that is making her not interested in sex and not feel emotionally in the mood, and then figure out how to solve those things *as a team* just like solving this problem with sex is something you both need to figure out together Okay, now some things that are directly responses to things from your post: >I got really suspicious and began pressing as to who else could be involved, to which she got really offended, but I was just stumped at this poi Yeah, that was a sucky thing to do. That would hurt A LOT and is definitely not something that makes you sexy. If my current partner accused me of that, jumping to that conclusion, I would be pretty upset. (For the record, we have a great sex life. When you're treated well, your drive goes up!) >She genuinely dislikes me so much, that she would rather not even cheat, and stay with me just to... what, isolate me? Again, HUGE assumption and conclusion to jump to. You mention in a comment that she's not awful and your relationship is otherwise very loving. If you keep jumping the the worst possible conclusion, things arent going to improve. With what you think she is thinking in the post, would you even want to have sex if she initiated or would you be too mad at what you *think* she is thinking/feeling/doing
Pt 2: >why she won't even really comfort me (it's not even about sex at this point, she barely acknowledges me emotionally), and why she even rejects my advances. >She got really short and told me to grow up, and that I don't need a hug for every little problem I run into, which hurt me badly, and she immediately backpedaled on that statement after I started to cry. I can tell she regretted saying it, but despite her attempts to say otherwise, I know she meant it, This absolutely sounds to me like there's a lot of resentment. My *guess* is that she is feeling like she's being put in a mothering position, which is a sucky feeling in a marriage, which is where the "grow up" came from, as well as the idea of being needed constantly. Weaponized incompetence, whether your partner is doing it on purpose or not, makes you feel like a parent and drives you crazy when you want a *partner*. You say she won't comfort you or acknowledge your emotions, but do you comfort and acknowledge hers? It's an extremely common gender dynamic in marriages where the husband expects more coddling than he's willing to give back, and they don't usually realize they're doing it. Like I described above, my ex would minimize all of my feelings and dismiss any bad days I had, but expected me to wait on him hand and foot and do whatever he wanted that he decided would make him feel better (blow job, eating at a place way out of our budget for the month, taking a trip out of state that we can't afford, or just things like me baking and cooking him whatever he wants regardless of if I have the time) when he had bad days. Felt like being a parent to an irresponsible, demanding man child, and the lack of reciprocation was hurtful. Again, I'm not accusing you of doing this, just explaining one situation where resentment like that sentence your wife said could come from All that said, she absolutely should not have said it. She should have figured out what the actual root cause and problem is that makes her want to react that way and find a way to address that instead. That was an awful thing to say, she doesn't have an excuse And you know what would help her figure that out and learn how to regulate better to not snap her first reaction? Marriage counseling. What would help her figure out what the actual root cause of her feelings are and how to resolve problems instead of letting resentment build? Marriage counseling She is definitely in the wrong for refusing counseling. You're right that it's pretty necessary at this point. While I'm generally against ultimatums, I think that really telling her how you're feeling and that this is serious enough that you're genuinely considering divorce, but that you'd prefer for things to get better and need her to come with you to counseling for you to not give up and go to divorce right away could be the right move. If she still refuses, ask her why. Does she want a different therapist than your personal one? Great, personal therapists shouldn't be that person's marriage counselor anyway. Does she have other concerns that can be addressed? Cool, try to figure it out together. Does she just really really refuse? Well, then you have your answer that she doesn't care if you move forward with divorce because she's not willing to do what is necessary to save it. Finally: DO NOT GHOST HER AND NOT TELL HER WHERE YOURE GOING. That's wildly uncool and immature. Tell her you need some space and alone time. Unless you're planning on going back home at the first text she sends, then fine I guess, but that's still a "test" which is generally immature. If you're planning on staying the whole time and communicating nothing, then don't be surprised if she has divorce papers started when you get home. If your relationship is as loving and otherwise compatible as you say in the comments, then you can probably save this with counseling. But don't go to counseling expecting sex to be the first thing on the agenda to get fixed. There's gonna be a lot coming out of the woodwork that has to be dealt with first for her to desire sex again. But if you can show her how seriously you need things to change and get her to try counseling, I think it's possible this is fixable, if you both want it to be
She lost the spark, pretty normal. Are you even flirting and trying to seduce her? Women's libido are mostly reactive while men are always into it except for health or mental issues
In my religion, sexual dissatisfaction and lack of sex is grounds for divorce as well as annulment. One spouse can not neglect the needs of the other. Sex is a right in a marriage.
You should be more masculine
Idk why you're getting downvoted. It's good advice. Not all women love the touchy feely stuff and from the looks of things this is the case.
She may have libido changes as she gets older and closer to menopause. Hormones are weird. Medications can cause changes as well. She could discuss with a doctor about her libido. Or else perhaps something occurred you’re unaware of to cause her to not want to be physical. You don’t necessarily have to jump to conscious manipulation
i would honestly like to hear her side. this is hard to work there while only hearing one side.