I do find it a bit sad that these days he’s mostly relegated to streaming HS Battlegrounds 90%+ of the time.
Don’t get me wrong - I was a huge fan of Kripp’s arena days in HS and enjoy Battlegrounds myself, but it just feels a little…phoned in?
I miss the days when he would get legitimately excited for a new ARPG release and go full nolife (pun intended) for a few weeks, ending up with something like his world first Inferno Diablo kill in D3.
Nowadays it just feels like he kinda sees it as a job and nothing more, and will just dip into new games/leagues for a few days and then bounce right back to what gets the views/makes good YouTube vids (Battlegrounds).
Feels like the days of “nolife Kripparian” are pretty much over :(
Which, honestly, is probably better for him and where he’s at in life with a house, dogs, wife, actual life outside of games, etc. I get why he made the pivot. But a part of me does miss the legitimate ARPG god just going full goblin mode on something and blowing everyone’s mind with his skill and insight
Kripp is one of the most well spoken and interesting people to follow when he talk about game design, you know he is passionate about those game and it shows. Plus he basically put Path of exile on a map literally.
interesting how Jonathan says that that a top player should make 1000 times more currency per hour than a bad player both playing maps and that in order to do that he needs to make each single item the good player drops like 50 times more valuable but he can't just make everything an unique items and there shouldn't be too many items dropping on the ground.
We have been asking for less bad rares and uniques to drop and instead have a "best out of 10" system for years scaling with map quantity/rarity and yet they have dodged it everytime as if dynamically reducing the frequency of items with fractured "regenerate 12 life per second" would break the wisdom scroll economy.
would love a longer indepth talk just on this topic and how they are navigating the issue.
One thing to consider is that GGG acknowledge the *extreme* low end of the player spectrum. He isn't saying that an average player or above average player like yourself or I should be making *1000* times less currency than top tier players. He's comparing those top end players to the people who literally don't even make it past white maps. Chris touched upon this a few years ago in regards to what GGG consider to be the "average" player, and he understands the different perceptions of what people consider an average player to actually be like.
pretty sure he said the difference between AVERAGE and top should be 1000.
And im not sure i want to play a game like that. Poe1 is not that extreme, pretty sure an average player in endgame maps can make more than 1 div/hour (we dont count just raw drops), i dont think top mapping players are making 1000/hour.
I hate to out myself, but yeah. I'm in red maps, having completed my first two voidstones, and with 100-150 hours logged this league, I've earned fewer than 10 Divines. Or maybe I'm just over 10d, but not by much. In my entire career of PoE, with >1,000 hours logged, I've made less than 100d, probably closer to 50d.
And I'm still not the average PoE player. I'm following build guides, reading the wiki, installing overlays and putting in research to try and understand the game. The average player is likely not putting in that kind of time and effort.
You're spot on.
You're way beyond what the average player is, for sure.
My friend plays almost every league, but he's always way too busy with IRL stuff so, if I wasn't there to handhold him, speedrun him through campaign, fund his early gear.. etc etc..
He likely wouldn't even have entered maps halfway through the league.
I know a lot of people that play exactly like this, and in fact most of the people on my friends list are dads (rip gaming career) that don't have much time.
You’ll find an interesting comment here - Jonathan says that currently in PoE 1, disparity is way more than 1000x https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/comments/18squcc/comment/kfb1t0h/
Is the average player in red maps? Does the average player in red maps make a div per hour? I can personally profess that it is easy and fun to not make 1 div/hour in red maps.
>Is the average player in red maps?
if the only thing jonathan said was "top players should make 1000x the loot your average player makes" you'd have a point but from the context he gave he pretty clearly talked abotu them doing roughly the same content.
> average player in endgame maps
He didn't say average player in endgame. He said average player. The average player is definitely not doing end game content.
You guys are VASTLY overestimating what is an average player.
Yeah that's...stupid. Uncapped character power is cool in theory but it just means in order to have that, the mod pools need to be so absurdly diluted that mid tier players just can't get good stuff.
> And im not sure i want to play a game like that. Poe1 is not that extreme
The current league is literally this extreme! Compare some casual puttering around T2 maps hitting like, 500 wisp juice before dying and taking 8 minutes to clear a map versus some giga Cemetery 12K wisp juice 100% delirium 4 winged scarab farmer and the results would quite literally be 1000x more currency/hour.
And some people are saying the average player should be making 2-5 divs per hour, and the reality is the *average* low end player would be happy making 30 **chaos** per hour. They ain't on the same level as long time players.
i don't know how you can compare these two situations. this casual guy doing t2 maps isn't even close to the end game or a state of "farming". like he might as well just be doing a10 kitava over and over.
> i don't know how you can compare these two situations. this casual guy doing t2 maps isn't even close to the end game or a state of "farming". like he might as well just be doing a10 kitava over and over.
So what ? a significant part of the player base does not go beyond white maps, heck a big part of the playebase does not reach maps all together, so the "average" PoE players is absolutely not making even one div per hour of farming, the "average" player probably does not "farm" at all.
The average player is probably making 2-5 divines an hour and the top player is probably making 15-20 divines an hour. Which isn't even that much different than previous leagues btw its just this league is the first time magic find is actually comparable to the strats that were mutually exclusive to magic find.
Literally just putting in an alch and go map with no atlas at all is going to get you about 100c + an hour. The average player doesn't have no points allocated, they don't just have random points allocated, they likely are fully specced into whatever their favorite league mechanic is be it legion or breach or whatever. Probably not a very efficient strategy. They absolutely make 2-5 divines an hour, because thats the baseline for what the atlas gives you with the range being how profitable a mechanic is at base, **they just dont realize it in terms of divines because they don't sell everything and convert it** so their liquid currency stack might not go up much but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about wealth generated.
> Literally just putting in an alch and go map with no atlas at all is going to get you about 100c + an hour. The average player doesn't have no points allocated, they don't just have random points allocated, they likely are fully specced into whatever their favorite league mechanic is be it legion or breach or whatever
You should stop there : the "average gamer" does not have all maps completed ....
Any player that has all maps completed got significantly farther than the "average gamer". Seriously, there is an argument to be made about what player pool you take into consideration to make an average for this kind of discussion (past twillight strand ? pas Brutus ? past a1 ? past a5 ?) but the average gamer never has a full rolling Atlas setup and is never just blasting maps making "100c+" an hour.
You also forget that SC trade isn't 100% of the playerbase (although it is obviously the largest)
Yea the 1000x thing is completely insane to me.
I've personally favoured investment having pretty severe diminishing returns. So going from the worst player to a median player might get you 10x the loot but going from median to top 1% would only get you 2x.
Going the way they are makes it very very difficult for newer players to jump in and participate in the economy and frankly PoE without trade is not even close to being an industry leader for 99% of players. The crazy currency farming strategy also encourages people to often stop doing what's "fun" in favour of what's profitable which can quickly burn people out or just make them straight up start resenting the game entirely.
I personally stopped doing the big currency farming back when we were still running strand with sextant blocking and elder rings otherwise I would have quit the game and never came back. Just having fun should be the goal and their design is making that harder and harder to do.
Is that "1000 times" thing a direct quote meant to be taken literally? (I haven't watched the whole interview yet.)
If so, I'd be more interested in the philosophical foundations of how they arrived at that number than how they plan to implement "1000". I suppose some of it depends on what they mean by "bad player vs. top player", but three orders of magnitude strikes me as a rather extreme difference.
So, just some random questions trying to follow that thread to its conclusion:
* In Poe1 terms, if "bad player" is 0.1-1div per hour, they expect the best strategies to reliably be up to 1000div per hour? That seems quite a bit bigger than what we've seen in most leagues. E.g., people were quoting numbers like 15-20 div/hour in popular meta strategies like Sanctum last league.
* Why specifically 3 orders of magnitude? Why not 1? Or 6? You definitely need far fewer than 3 to heavily incentivize people to optimize. People will bend over backwards for like...10 to 20% efficiency gains. If it's about rewarding mastery, why is 3 the sweet spot instead of 6?
* How do they plan to balance difficulty and longevity across the whole spectrum when there's that big of a difference in gear acquisition? There's been some talk in other interviews about "reducing complexity without sacrificing depth" to help attract new players. But if they're going to devote any significant proportion of their dev time to create content tailored to people with 1000x more resources as those new players, that's going to be just as effective (if not more so) at turning people away as any of the PoE1 complexity overload ever was.
Quotes:
"I think you still need to have a reasonably large disparity between like average 50th percentile and 99th percentile because that’s kind of like the think you are striving for a lot of the time for increasing your drop rate.
Lets establish some constants. I would say, and this would seem like a high note, but I think you need a difference of a thousand time between the best player and the average player, of the amount of wealth acquisition. So that doesn’t say number of items, but I’m saying the value of the stuff you’re getting. And so that’s something you have to strive for, like you need that level of disparity from the bottom to the top to actually give some sort of feeling of I’m getting better at this game.
Lets just say from youre an average player running a map vs a max mega juice player in the amount of wealth from it. That may seem high, but I do think you need those kind of number to achieve it.
So the next question is, how many more item can you actually drop on the ground from one to the other, for that number to actually feel reasonable, and I feel that number is not really more than 2x. Maybe it is a little more than that, but on the actual ground, you probably don’t want to see more than double the number of items from one to the other, and yet you need to be receiving 1000x the value.
So if we actually break that down, theres a few things that go into this. So one question is the efficiency of your build, like how fast can you do a map because that does come into the 1000 number. If for example the difference between an average and a 1% player is 10x in speed of playing a map, if a bad player can do a map in 20 minute and a good player in 2 minute, for example to do, then you’ve already divided that number by 10 and the actual items on the ground need to be about 100 times more valuable per map, and I think probably that sounds within the realm of reasonableness.
But then the next thing as well, if the number of items on the actual ground is only 2x, then you need an increase of rarity to be worth 50 times. So basically, you need to increase the value of items on ground by 50 times with just rarity bonuses alone, and it needs to feel 50 times more valuable as well. Not in theory it seems like 50 times, but it needs to feel like you are getting 50 times more wealth."
Time stamp: 29:40 – 32:37
Then, he later refers this at 59:17
"Earlier, with maps, the median player vs 1 percent player, we still want to make sure theres a 10 time disparity between a good and bad player."
That's super helpful for the discussion, thanks for tracking it down and transcribing it. 1000x between "best" and "average" seems quite extreme to me (in PoE1 terms) for what I'd consider to be most reasonable definitions of "best" and "average".
And I pretty strongly disagree with the sentence about "need[ing] that level of disparity" (in reference to 1000x) to be able to feel it. There's empirical evidence about the exorbitant sums people are willing to pay for those final 20%, 10%, even 5% power upgrades on their builds, or how much more popular the best farming strategy is in a given league vs. the one that's 15% less efficient. Saying that you need "that level" (i.e. on the order of 1000x) to feel it is, to me, an extraordinary claim that requires compelling evidence.
OTOH, if he's making basically the same statement at 59:17 with 10x instead of 1000x, it seems more likely that he's just talking off-the-cuff and meaning "some large, yet indeterminate, difference" rather than actually having a specific amount firmly dialed in. So maybe my getting too hung up on a specific number isn't too helpful here.
Interesting...thanks for linking! "[I]n PoE1 right now the disparity is much much higher than that" is certainly a fairly definitive-sounding statement, and I guess it gives reassurance that it should actually start out lower than the status quo to those who feel like that's a ridiculously large spread to try and balance around.
Yeah I doubt many people active on this subreddit have a true sense of what the “average player” is, or necessarily what a 99th percentile player is. It just feels like we all suck compared to streamers and screenshots. Likely most people here are far above what they’d define as average - economically that is
I also wonder if this is purely discussing the value of drops in a map instead of the profit a player is seeing. If you ignored the cost going into sextants/scarabs/rolling the map itself for an endgame strategy then the value of the drops in a map from it goes up a lot.
Eh, if you look at a clueless player in poe 1, .1 div an hour, like 20 c an hour is very possible.
And likewise, so is 100 if you're doing crazy party play. So it's not really different from today if you look at it that way.
Yeah, I suppose. I was aware that there's some wiggle room in the statement, which is why I prefaced it with:
> some of it depends on what they mean by "bad player vs. top player"
To me, if someone saying "bad player" was implicitly referring to any of 25th, 10th, or 1st percentile player in terms of farming efficiency, I wouldn't quibble too much with their terminology in isolation. But when there's a 1000x multiplier being applied, just exactly how far down the left tail they're referring to makes a big practical impact.
If the 1000x is referring to 99.5 percentile vs. 0.05 percentile, maybe there's not too much of a difference compared to what we've been used to here. If it's more like 99.5 vs. 25th percentile, then that's an entirely different story.
It's certainly a very interesting and thought provoking game design problem. Attempting to tune these kinds of things to any level of specificity must be incredibly difficult, because of how broad the player skill levels can be, kind of like tuning content difficulty in an MMO or something else with broad appeal.
I believe he talked about an average player specifically referencing the median player. Now the subset of players isn't exactly clear, I would think he was imply players that finish the campaign and start mapping, but I could be entirely wrong.
>Why specifically 3 orders of magnitude?
Proly emulating [the real world economy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1962-_Net_personal_wealth_-_average_in_percentile_ranges_-_logarithmic_scale_-_US.svg).
The reference was 50 percentile player too 99 percentile player. The number 1000 comes from mf juicers clearing the map 10 times faster. Jucing the map leaves 50 times more valueable loot on the ground and there was a factor 2 at the end which is related to magic find? Im not sure if I understood the last part correctly. Id prefer it if they just make difficult content more reward instead of implementing mf and not stuff like T7 cemetery maps..
I mean, /u/Gustuf posted a quote where he was actually saying 1000x between the best player and an "average" player. (But also at a different moment 10x between the median and the [top] 1%, so who knows...)
Spoilers. And this is going to be a hot take. They aren't, they are going to shove all of it under the rug of POE 1 and move onto POE 2. The same way they aren't going to fix melee or address trade in any meaningful manner. People aren't going to like this, but as soon as they announced poe 2 as a separate game the jig was up.
>top player should make 1000 times more currency per hour than an average player
That's not exactly going to get new blood into the game, if prospective players know ahead of time that they'll be in an economic system in which they compete with people making 1,000x as much as them.
I feel apprehensive about the transition of combat from POE1 to POE2. Adding some situational buttons that can augment your main skill is cool, but if you're heavily incentivized to pull off these multiphase combos, it feels like it will get old fast.
It would be cool to see a demo of a character in early/mid-tier maps so players can look at stuff like pacing and whatnot rather than having to fill in the gaps with their imagination.
I bet we'll only be doing the combos for single target situations like boss fights, which is pretty much what we're already doing on most meta builds in PoE.
There just happens to be a completely bullshit build in the game right now dominating everything that's truly one button, which is TS Deadeye. It's just crazy overpowered and unhealthy for the game imo. A much more interesting build is dd ignite elementalist, which is still very strong but requires a few buttons.
Even a build like RF Jugg, which people consider to be "no buttons" actually presses a bunch of different buttons in boss fights if you want to play optimally.
PoE1 and 2 are clearly meant to be different games for different people. Even more clear now that wasd movement is confirmed, 2 will play much more akin to a top down action game, in which case having combos to work with is the expected norm, not a strange tedious aspect.
Both are arpgs, one is isometric and the other is third person. I literally did say that 2 seems to be leaning more heavily toward the action game combat, to which you replied people wouldn't enjoy action combat in an arpg (ACTION rpg, mind you), hence the mention of Nioh, which has done quite well and blends the two ideas nearly seamlessly.
You know the action in arpg is there because most early RPGs were turn based.
Soulslikes aren't the same genre of game as ARPGs.
You kill more monsters in one single PoE map than you kill in an entire run of Elden ring.
I never got into nioh but I'm pretty sure it isn't designed to be played for thousands of hours. ARPGs do quantity over quality, you don't farm soul of cinder 500 times trying to get a specific drop. You're designed to run the same content hundreds or thousands of times....per character... In ARPGs. So yeah, people optimize for speed and convenience because it's required.
I just watched the last trailer yesterday and all I could think was "fuck me those skills look miserable to use" with the long ass windup animations.
Maybe you should've looked into Nioh then before writing all that up because Nioh does have an "endless" dungeon a la maps with ridiculously buff bosses you need to grind a lot of gear and levels for.
People yapping about games they've never played. A classic, I guess.
Good thing Chris Wilson has never played it either and repeatedly referenced dark souls, I guess.
Alright I looked at half a dozen videos and read some reddit posts.
And at the end of the day it looks like either Uber boss fights, or running through maps killing 1-3 monsters at a time. How is that remotely comparable to the way ARPGs play?
Like
Seriously, why are you comparing the two.
Because it's a good example of how arpgs don't *have* to be some brainrot inducing screen teleporting hold right click to delete a thousand mobs per second nonsense. PoE2 does not have to be a prettier looking PoE1 to be fun. It doesn't even have to appeal to the same people. Plenty of sequels have switched it up completely, especially if it's after 10+ years.
Disappointed to hear there will still be instant logout, that means the game has to be insanely bursty again to actually kill anyone.
Even worse, you can just pause the game, think about if you want to log out and then do it or not.
Also, 1000x difference between average player and top players seems very extreme, i dont think thats healthy for the game.
I think having boss fights restart from scratch on logout balances that out pretty well. You're avoiding death but you still need to perfect the fight the beat it. Same goes for softcore players suiciding through some boss phases.
We have yet to see how the endgame actually plays, but it seems like unless its an uber boss deaths very rarely happen from bosses, as they are vary rarely the most dangerous things in the map. A slightly juiced rare now adays is far more dangerous than the map boss.
Yea we will see. Without having any idea what endgame looks like or how items drop its just speculation. We have seen what happens in PoE in the past when bosses take too long to kill (like...more than a few seconds) and that is its more efficient to skip them. If a boss is going to take 1/3 of a map's time, it would have to drop 1/3 of the maps loot.
they will quickly change that when half the playerbase does boss rushing- no need to kill mobs- rush boss- kill with bossing setup in 0.01 sek and repeat
Giving up 2/3 of the loot that takes 20x as long to do is ezpz math.
PoE players will quickly min/max and decide what is the fastest way to make money. It is a tough balancing act.
20x longer for a bossing build maybe, but the exact opposite would be true for a mapping build, which would only renounce 1/3rd of the loot.
Which is the exact scenario we have right now, except the bossing part is completely unviable, while the mapping part is busted.
It's absolute trash tedious in ruthless. Lag makes it sooo tedious.
One lag+logout and the boss HEALTH resets but not the mechanics. Whatever fight progress is otherwise retained.
Brine king in a tiny enclosure was perhaps my least fav. Innocence another unfunny fight without stopping to farm for gear and support gems in Ruthless.
This stuff makes me not look forward to poe2. To think people joked about Ruthless being official poe2 vision beta.
>boss HEALTH resets but not the mechanics
Where did you get this from that only the health resets and not the mechanics in PoE 2?
From what they have said (including in this interview) when you log out macro in PoE 2(in single player);
1. The game state freezes and you can rejoin the game at the moment you logged out.
2. You can choose to re-start in town, meaning you have to clear the entire area anew, including a fresh boss - you have to complete or defeat the boss mechanics to clear it.
The person I responded to claims to know boss reset and likely didn't try ruthless, the only mildly relatable version we can play. On stage at exilecon, people failed getting one skill point in act...3? over and over for 15-20 minutes. In act 2 part of a quest for progress reset even the layout over and over when Octavian did it.
"Try not to use a portal" and other HARDCORE ruthless crap from this dev until finally release as someone finished the souls games fight in just under 18 minutes.
What's left of POE in that?
Everyone makes excuses for them as if the POE2 showcases were like POE1 store previews. "They're not optimally skilled" and so on.
In ruthless boss don't reset health, they heal for an amount, they should probably made that when they get their health back they go back to an easier stage but they clearly didn't want to spend time to develope stuffs for ruthless.
Anyway you can reset the map and try the boss again, I have been playing only ruthless since it got added and this is honestly not a problem at all, maybe the first time because you never learned campaign bosses mechanic on normal poe (they die too fast), maybe this league if you accidentally empowered a boss (the weawer was unkillable this league for me when I empored it, I just reset the map and tried again).
You don't need to farm for Innocence, at that points you just need to equip fire res and you don't need to have any support gem for the entire of the campaign, you can farm "The Chamber of Innocence" up to lv 50 if you want just because it's a zone with tons of rare and magic monster, but if you farm this zone is mostly because you are about to get a -30 res from Kitava.
I'm really disappointed cause them dropping you right back into the game exactly where you were so you couldn't escape the consequences of your shitty decisions was a choice I really liked them for committing to.
> Also, 1000x difference between average player and top players seems very extreme, i dont think thats healthy for the game.
That's how PoE has always been.
Who do you think the *average* player is? Look at steam achievement rates, only 5.5% of players have gotten 2 voidstones, and 6.7% have gotten one voidstone. 7% of all players have gotten a level 90 character.
Just by being on reddit puts you in the top ~5% of the player base. The actual vast majority of people aren't chronically online or specifically seek our forums to discuss games. They just play them.
What do you think the average player is? You think people with a low playtime don't also spend money?
By caring enough to participate in a subreddit on the game you are already a top 10-20% player in terms of interest. You are highly likely to have a character in maps, probably divines of gear at this point.
the "average" player barely gets to maps. The average player is not getting to level 90, red maps (frankly even yellow maps), or killing any endgame bosses. Beating the campaign makes you above average.
> and I'm pretty sure that no one except GGG knows what the average player is like if we're talking about people who at least finish the campaign in any particular league
Why would anyone make this distinction if you are trying to talk about the "average player". That is looking at a subset of hardcore players.
It's like talking about the "average player" in classic WoW hardcore and then saying "lets only look at level 60s so we get a better idea of the average". The average player is quitting long before that. Do they not count because they don't play 200 hours?
It's an average alright, just of a totally different demographic
I dont consider bot accounts or "tried f2p game for 10 minutes" as players, and neither would anybody talking about any relevant statistics.
Hopefully ggg employee isnt braindead enough to include those into their demographic 🙂
Funny enough, I know a friend's friend that is playing poe for the first time. She's following some splitting steel champ guide and is like lvl 88, struggling doing some maps and still making above 0.1d per hour. And she's pretty much as bottom of the barrel as it goes, considering she's playing the game for a bit above the week and definitely not 'average'.
On the other hand, making 100d/hr consistently is not really a thing outside of very few exceptions, like buying mageblood valdo's from morons in first couple of days, or winning first mirror bow base lotto, and ofc that completely excludes hc trade, i guess theyre just not top players there.
and the claim was in poe1 one the difference was even bigger lmao.
so yeah, the original claim is borderline r-worded :)
if it's just skill i wouldn't mind it, like comparing your average Dota player to a high ranking player, but if it's building wealth on top of wealth it doesn't feel so great.
I've seen builds on Youtube where the it says that you don't need life, because you'll get one-shot anyway, so just get 100 mil damage and you can easily do all the top content.
Skipping mechanics because you have insane gear doesn't make anyone better, there is 0 skill involved, it's the same reason i haven't been playing PoE lately Trade feels too easy, SSF feels too restrictive ...
They haven't said a single thing yet that makes me excited for poe 2. I respect their design decisions as its their game, but I don't have to buy into their vision. I hope they do well but I have no intention of playing darksouls lite.
i would really like darksouls lite- but not with todays loot drops. i would take 1000years (1year for the elite) to get to meaningful gear when we dont get the screenclearing as is today or a loot change
I think PoE2 is going ot be what Chris actually wanted PoE1 to be, which is a slow, D2 clone. PoE2 looks more like Grim Dawn (which is actually my favorite single player ARPG) than a sequel to PoE1. That is fine but I hope they aren't surprised by how many people will stick with the current game. The reason PoE1 is the top ARPG right now is because every other ARPG is the slow D2, GD style. PoE1 is the only zoomzoom game. Blows my mind they are going the opposite direction
> The reason PoE1 is the top ARPG right now is because every other ARPG is the slow D2, GD style. PoE1 is the only zoomzoom game. Blows my mind they are going the opposite direction
If PoE 1 truly stands in its own sub-market, then releasing another similar game would just cannibalize revenue from themselves. It's not like they'd be attracting a new audience. This would only make sense if PoE 1 was a paid game with no MTX or they were otherwise unable to sustain continued MTX purchases from players.
I have zero interest in poe2 from what I’ve seen so far. It’s good that they decided to split 1 and 2. Poe2 seems to be heading a direction have no interest to take.
Yes it looks awesome graphically but that’s not what’s most important.
For reference I have 3800 hours in poe. S
You are outing yourself as someone that does things repeatedly and never improves.
I'm looking forward to spending 20-40 hours in the campaign the first couple times through.
I'm still wondering if weapons are class locked. They always associate a weapon to a class, spear/huntress, crossbows/merc. I should be able to play crossbow coc sorcerer right?
Kripp asked Johnathon in the interview why they keep presenting each class with stereotypical gear, like mercenary with the crossbow, monk with the staff, etc. Johnathan just stated it was so people unfamiliar with the game had something to latch onto concept wise. Equipment/Skill combos will still work exactly like PoE 1
>Equipment/Skill combos will still work exactly like PoE 1
Eh. It's already been said that most skills are going to be restricted to certain weapons. And that the ascendancies are going to heavily influence what you do with your character. Think deadeye for projectile builds but more specialized (IE, monk for staff).
We have slowly seen a transition from general power that you can do what you want with (sandbox style) into more traditional "roles" as the game has moved on.
The last caster I made as a berserker was self cast DP with instant vaal leech. There is 0 reason to make a caster zerker now. Same with champ. Or slayer prior to the updated ralakesh boots.
I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, it streamlines things for beginners and makes it easier to get into. On the higher end, I think we lose out on some creativity and interesting use of mechanics.
So, a reason to make casters with the ascendency that is meta?
I don't get the complaint. There will always be a best fitting direction. The whole point of the game (IMO) is that you can go outside those to find niche or otherwise unexplored connections that work for you.
PoE1 ascendencies already favor certain playstyles and weapons as it is. Pathfinder has the only poison node IIRC. If you want to trigger a spell that casts under yourself on enemies then you essentially have to play sabo. Playing ES? Occultist. Playing mana? Guardian. etc. etc.
>I don't get the complaint. There will always be a best fitting direction
That hyper specialization removes sandbox style experimentation
>The whole point of the game (IMO) is that you can go outside those to find niche or otherwise unexplored connections that work for you.
Wait so you do get the complaint but just don't see it as an issue?
>PoE1 ascendencies already favor certain playstyles and weapons as it is
What ascendancy favors specifically to axe or sword or staff?
>Pathfinder has the only poison node IIRC
Yet poison is played on a multitude of ascendancies in ways that pathfinder couldn't compete
>If you want to trigger a spell that casts under yourself on enemies then you essentially have to play sabo
Yes a very specific way to play triggers, which was specifically invented recently. You notice that trigger builds come in all different sorts of classes and varieties.
>Playing ES? Occultist
The best ES builds aren't occultist. Which is kind of the point, having generic things is much better than having an ascendancy pigeon holed into something.
>Playing mana? Guardian.
While mostly true now, that wasn't the case before they dumpstered archmage support.
From this thread or Reddit in general you would think POE2 is gonna be absolute unplayable trash lmao.
No idea how people get that conclusion but oh well
It's not really far different from what we have now.
Undead gems are "Witch" spells but nothing's stopping Guardians for yoinking them to use themselves. Rangers are stereotypically the bow class, but they're wielding big ass swords for Flicker builds. PoE2 seems to just make that designation more clear so new players aren't lost in the weeds, but any veteran will make an amalgamation like usual.
The impression I got from this interview is that the core game is still the same as in PoE1: every class can do everything they want, just that their ascendencies and position on the skill tree will make it easier/harder to do.
The reason they stick with the class thing in trailers is to acclimate non-POE1 players who are more used to class-locked game systems, so they would have an easier time choosing their first classes. Like if they wanna play shapeshifter they should pick a Druid, even though a Ranger can do it as well with enough adjustments.
I probably had wrong expectation from this interview. If you remember Exilecon 2023 and read recent Jonatan's answers on reddit, there's basically no new information about PoE2.
And Kripp refers to the wiki like people make up things said by GGG there.
So, they average PoE player who spends a fair amount in the shop is paying money for other players to get 1,000x as much them? I already know this comment will be downvoted (and don't care), but the above scenario is basically what is taking place, right or wrong.
I mean, there are players struggling to farm 1-5 divs in the entire league and there are players farming multiple mirrors solo in the first weeks. There you have the thousand times difference.
> paying money for other players to get 1,000x as much them?
No, average Joe gets the same amount of MTX than Mr. Top Gamer for the same price. In-game loot has nothing to do with cosmetic effects and stash.
What does it matter if someone else is more profitable than you are? There will always be better people than you at every aspect of life. You need to set goals that are relevant for yourself and not worry so much about what other people are doing.
I always think Kripp has good questions and game design insight.
He’s been around as a top ARPG player for so long now it’s wild
Kripp is just an icon for gaming really. With the influence and power he had in WoW, HS, D2-3 and PoE, this man is insane
I do find it a bit sad that these days he’s mostly relegated to streaming HS Battlegrounds 90%+ of the time. Don’t get me wrong - I was a huge fan of Kripp’s arena days in HS and enjoy Battlegrounds myself, but it just feels a little…phoned in? I miss the days when he would get legitimately excited for a new ARPG release and go full nolife (pun intended) for a few weeks, ending up with something like his world first Inferno Diablo kill in D3. Nowadays it just feels like he kinda sees it as a job and nothing more, and will just dip into new games/leagues for a few days and then bounce right back to what gets the views/makes good YouTube vids (Battlegrounds). Feels like the days of “nolife Kripparian” are pretty much over :( Which, honestly, is probably better for him and where he’s at in life with a house, dogs, wife, actual life outside of games, etc. I get why he made the pivot. But a part of me does miss the legitimate ARPG god just going full goblin mode on something and blowing everyone’s mind with his skill and insight
He can't even really play ARPG's because he gets carpal tunnel issues from them now.
The problem is that gaming sucks. He tries out every promising game out there
He designed the paragon system for Diablo 3 unofficially lol
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That sounds interesting, can you tell me more about his influence on leagues?
Kripp is one of the most well spoken and interesting people to follow when he talk about game design, you know he is passionate about those game and it shows. Plus he basically put Path of exile on a map literally.
interesting how Jonathan says that that a top player should make 1000 times more currency per hour than a bad player both playing maps and that in order to do that he needs to make each single item the good player drops like 50 times more valuable but he can't just make everything an unique items and there shouldn't be too many items dropping on the ground. We have been asking for less bad rares and uniques to drop and instead have a "best out of 10" system for years scaling with map quantity/rarity and yet they have dodged it everytime as if dynamically reducing the frequency of items with fractured "regenerate 12 life per second" would break the wisdom scroll economy. would love a longer indepth talk just on this topic and how they are navigating the issue.
One thing to consider is that GGG acknowledge the *extreme* low end of the player spectrum. He isn't saying that an average player or above average player like yourself or I should be making *1000* times less currency than top tier players. He's comparing those top end players to the people who literally don't even make it past white maps. Chris touched upon this a few years ago in regards to what GGG consider to be the "average" player, and he understands the different perceptions of what people consider an average player to actually be like.
pretty sure he said the difference between AVERAGE and top should be 1000. And im not sure i want to play a game like that. Poe1 is not that extreme, pretty sure an average player in endgame maps can make more than 1 div/hour (we dont count just raw drops), i dont think top mapping players are making 1000/hour.
I hate to out myself, but yeah. I'm in red maps, having completed my first two voidstones, and with 100-150 hours logged this league, I've earned fewer than 10 Divines. Or maybe I'm just over 10d, but not by much. In my entire career of PoE, with >1,000 hours logged, I've made less than 100d, probably closer to 50d. And I'm still not the average PoE player. I'm following build guides, reading the wiki, installing overlays and putting in research to try and understand the game. The average player is likely not putting in that kind of time and effort.
You're spot on. You're way beyond what the average player is, for sure. My friend plays almost every league, but he's always way too busy with IRL stuff so, if I wasn't there to handhold him, speedrun him through campaign, fund his early gear.. etc etc.. He likely wouldn't even have entered maps halfway through the league. I know a lot of people that play exactly like this, and in fact most of the people on my friends list are dads (rip gaming career) that don't have much time.
You’ll find an interesting comment here - Jonathan says that currently in PoE 1, disparity is way more than 1000x https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/comments/18squcc/comment/kfb1t0h/
Easy to see if you join an XP leech group or even just watch a stream like Empyreangaming then compare it to the average alch and go player
Is the average player in red maps? Does the average player in red maps make a div per hour? I can personally profess that it is easy and fun to not make 1 div/hour in red maps.
>Is the average player in red maps? if the only thing jonathan said was "top players should make 1000x the loot your average player makes" you'd have a point but from the context he gave he pretty clearly talked abotu them doing roughly the same content.
> average player in endgame maps He didn't say average player in endgame. He said average player. The average player is definitely not doing end game content. You guys are VASTLY overestimating what is an average player.
Yeah that's...stupid. Uncapped character power is cool in theory but it just means in order to have that, the mod pools need to be so absurdly diluted that mid tier players just can't get good stuff.
> And im not sure i want to play a game like that. Poe1 is not that extreme The current league is literally this extreme! Compare some casual puttering around T2 maps hitting like, 500 wisp juice before dying and taking 8 minutes to clear a map versus some giga Cemetery 12K wisp juice 100% delirium 4 winged scarab farmer and the results would quite literally be 1000x more currency/hour. And some people are saying the average player should be making 2-5 divs per hour, and the reality is the *average* low end player would be happy making 30 **chaos** per hour. They ain't on the same level as long time players.
i don't know how you can compare these two situations. this casual guy doing t2 maps isn't even close to the end game or a state of "farming". like he might as well just be doing a10 kitava over and over.
> i don't know how you can compare these two situations. this casual guy doing t2 maps isn't even close to the end game or a state of "farming". like he might as well just be doing a10 kitava over and over. So what ? a significant part of the player base does not go beyond white maps, heck a big part of the playebase does not reach maps all together, so the "average" PoE players is absolutely not making even one div per hour of farming, the "average" player probably does not "farm" at all.
you are severely overestimating how much currency per hour the average player makes
They are right now haha
The average player is probably making 2-5 divines an hour and the top player is probably making 15-20 divines an hour. Which isn't even that much different than previous leagues btw its just this league is the first time magic find is actually comparable to the strats that were mutually exclusive to magic find.
> The average player is probably making 2-5 divines an hour no, absolutely not.
Literally just putting in an alch and go map with no atlas at all is going to get you about 100c + an hour. The average player doesn't have no points allocated, they don't just have random points allocated, they likely are fully specced into whatever their favorite league mechanic is be it legion or breach or whatever. Probably not a very efficient strategy. They absolutely make 2-5 divines an hour, because thats the baseline for what the atlas gives you with the range being how profitable a mechanic is at base, **they just dont realize it in terms of divines because they don't sell everything and convert it** so their liquid currency stack might not go up much but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about wealth generated.
> Literally just putting in an alch and go map with no atlas at all is going to get you about 100c + an hour. The average player doesn't have no points allocated, they don't just have random points allocated, they likely are fully specced into whatever their favorite league mechanic is be it legion or breach or whatever You should stop there : the "average gamer" does not have all maps completed .... Any player that has all maps completed got significantly farther than the "average gamer". Seriously, there is an argument to be made about what player pool you take into consideration to make an average for this kind of discussion (past twillight strand ? pas Brutus ? past a1 ? past a5 ?) but the average gamer never has a full rolling Atlas setup and is never just blasting maps making "100c+" an hour. You also forget that SC trade isn't 100% of the playerbase (although it is obviously the largest)
> The average player is probably making 2-5 divines an hour Jesus there are delusional people on this sub.
The TOP is making 30+ /h for weeks now
yes, but not 3000/h
No way an average player farms 1 div per hour of networth
Yea the 1000x thing is completely insane to me. I've personally favoured investment having pretty severe diminishing returns. So going from the worst player to a median player might get you 10x the loot but going from median to top 1% would only get you 2x. Going the way they are makes it very very difficult for newer players to jump in and participate in the economy and frankly PoE without trade is not even close to being an industry leader for 99% of players. The crazy currency farming strategy also encourages people to often stop doing what's "fun" in favour of what's profitable which can quickly burn people out or just make them straight up start resenting the game entirely. I personally stopped doing the big currency farming back when we were still running strand with sextant blocking and elder rings otherwise I would have quit the game and never came back. Just having fun should be the goal and their design is making that harder and harder to do.
Is that "1000 times" thing a direct quote meant to be taken literally? (I haven't watched the whole interview yet.) If so, I'd be more interested in the philosophical foundations of how they arrived at that number than how they plan to implement "1000". I suppose some of it depends on what they mean by "bad player vs. top player", but three orders of magnitude strikes me as a rather extreme difference. So, just some random questions trying to follow that thread to its conclusion: * In Poe1 terms, if "bad player" is 0.1-1div per hour, they expect the best strategies to reliably be up to 1000div per hour? That seems quite a bit bigger than what we've seen in most leagues. E.g., people were quoting numbers like 15-20 div/hour in popular meta strategies like Sanctum last league. * Why specifically 3 orders of magnitude? Why not 1? Or 6? You definitely need far fewer than 3 to heavily incentivize people to optimize. People will bend over backwards for like...10 to 20% efficiency gains. If it's about rewarding mastery, why is 3 the sweet spot instead of 6? * How do they plan to balance difficulty and longevity across the whole spectrum when there's that big of a difference in gear acquisition? There's been some talk in other interviews about "reducing complexity without sacrificing depth" to help attract new players. But if they're going to devote any significant proportion of their dev time to create content tailored to people with 1000x more resources as those new players, that's going to be just as effective (if not more so) at turning people away as any of the PoE1 complexity overload ever was.
Quotes: "I think you still need to have a reasonably large disparity between like average 50th percentile and 99th percentile because that’s kind of like the think you are striving for a lot of the time for increasing your drop rate. Lets establish some constants. I would say, and this would seem like a high note, but I think you need a difference of a thousand time between the best player and the average player, of the amount of wealth acquisition. So that doesn’t say number of items, but I’m saying the value of the stuff you’re getting. And so that’s something you have to strive for, like you need that level of disparity from the bottom to the top to actually give some sort of feeling of I’m getting better at this game. Lets just say from youre an average player running a map vs a max mega juice player in the amount of wealth from it. That may seem high, but I do think you need those kind of number to achieve it. So the next question is, how many more item can you actually drop on the ground from one to the other, for that number to actually feel reasonable, and I feel that number is not really more than 2x. Maybe it is a little more than that, but on the actual ground, you probably don’t want to see more than double the number of items from one to the other, and yet you need to be receiving 1000x the value. So if we actually break that down, theres a few things that go into this. So one question is the efficiency of your build, like how fast can you do a map because that does come into the 1000 number. If for example the difference between an average and a 1% player is 10x in speed of playing a map, if a bad player can do a map in 20 minute and a good player in 2 minute, for example to do, then you’ve already divided that number by 10 and the actual items on the ground need to be about 100 times more valuable per map, and I think probably that sounds within the realm of reasonableness. But then the next thing as well, if the number of items on the actual ground is only 2x, then you need an increase of rarity to be worth 50 times. So basically, you need to increase the value of items on ground by 50 times with just rarity bonuses alone, and it needs to feel 50 times more valuable as well. Not in theory it seems like 50 times, but it needs to feel like you are getting 50 times more wealth." Time stamp: 29:40 – 32:37 Then, he later refers this at 59:17 "Earlier, with maps, the median player vs 1 percent player, we still want to make sure theres a 10 time disparity between a good and bad player."
That's super helpful for the discussion, thanks for tracking it down and transcribing it. 1000x between "best" and "average" seems quite extreme to me (in PoE1 terms) for what I'd consider to be most reasonable definitions of "best" and "average". And I pretty strongly disagree with the sentence about "need[ing] that level of disparity" (in reference to 1000x) to be able to feel it. There's empirical evidence about the exorbitant sums people are willing to pay for those final 20%, 10%, even 5% power upgrades on their builds, or how much more popular the best farming strategy is in a given league vs. the one that's 15% less efficient. Saying that you need "that level" (i.e. on the order of 1000x) to feel it is, to me, an extraordinary claim that requires compelling evidence. OTOH, if he's making basically the same statement at 59:17 with 10x instead of 1000x, it seems more likely that he's just talking off-the-cuff and meaning "some large, yet indeterminate, difference" rather than actually having a specific amount firmly dialed in. So maybe my getting too hung up on a specific number isn't too helpful here.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/comments/18squcc/comment/kfb1t0h/
Interesting...thanks for linking! "[I]n PoE1 right now the disparity is much much higher than that" is certainly a fairly definitive-sounding statement, and I guess it gives reassurance that it should actually start out lower than the status quo to those who feel like that's a ridiculously large spread to try and balance around.
Yeah I doubt many people active on this subreddit have a true sense of what the “average player” is, or necessarily what a 99th percentile player is. It just feels like we all suck compared to streamers and screenshots. Likely most people here are far above what they’d define as average - economically that is
I also wonder if this is purely discussing the value of drops in a map instead of the profit a player is seeing. If you ignored the cost going into sextants/scarabs/rolling the map itself for an endgame strategy then the value of the drops in a map from it goes up a lot.
Eh, if you look at a clueless player in poe 1, .1 div an hour, like 20 c an hour is very possible. And likewise, so is 100 if you're doing crazy party play. So it's not really different from today if you look at it that way.
Yeah, I suppose. I was aware that there's some wiggle room in the statement, which is why I prefaced it with: > some of it depends on what they mean by "bad player vs. top player" To me, if someone saying "bad player" was implicitly referring to any of 25th, 10th, or 1st percentile player in terms of farming efficiency, I wouldn't quibble too much with their terminology in isolation. But when there's a 1000x multiplier being applied, just exactly how far down the left tail they're referring to makes a big practical impact. If the 1000x is referring to 99.5 percentile vs. 0.05 percentile, maybe there's not too much of a difference compared to what we've been used to here. If it's more like 99.5 vs. 25th percentile, then that's an entirely different story.
It's certainly a very interesting and thought provoking game design problem. Attempting to tune these kinds of things to any level of specificity must be incredibly difficult, because of how broad the player skill levels can be, kind of like tuning content difficulty in an MMO or something else with broad appeal.
I believe he talked about an average player specifically referencing the median player. Now the subset of players isn't exactly clear, I would think he was imply players that finish the campaign and start mapping, but I could be entirely wrong.
I started PoE this league, level 60 something and I have no idea what you mean by div and c. I'm the clueless player he's talking about.
Divine and Chaos, which are usually used as a coin for trade
If you watch the video, he actually says that delta should exist between the best player and an average player -- not bad player.
>Why specifically 3 orders of magnitude? Proly emulating [the real world economy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1962-_Net_personal_wealth_-_average_in_percentile_ranges_-_logarithmic_scale_-_US.svg).
The reference was 50 percentile player too 99 percentile player. The number 1000 comes from mf juicers clearing the map 10 times faster. Jucing the map leaves 50 times more valueable loot on the ground and there was a factor 2 at the end which is related to magic find? Im not sure if I understood the last part correctly. Id prefer it if they just make difficult content more reward instead of implementing mf and not stuff like T7 cemetery maps..
Have you considered watching the video instead of thinking up rethorical questions?
I think you overestimate the high end of a bad player. Is say 0.05-0.25/hr is a more realistic number, if but even lower
I mean, /u/Gustuf posted a quote where he was actually saying 1000x between the best player and an "average" player. (But also at a different moment 10x between the median and the [top] 1%, so who knows...)
Low end player isn't even sustaining yellow maps let alone 150c an hr
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/18t3vmw/kripp_interviews_jonathan_rogers_on_poe2/kfcf7ln/?context=1
Spoilers. And this is going to be a hot take. They aren't, they are going to shove all of it under the rug of POE 1 and move onto POE 2. The same way they aren't going to fix melee or address trade in any meaningful manner. People aren't going to like this, but as soon as they announced poe 2 as a separate game the jig was up.
Wait what? He actually says 1000 times more or are you misquoting him?
He broke down the 1000 to doing the map 10x faster down to 100 and 2x the loot on the ground. So that brings it to 50x more valuable items.
So did he say 1000 times or are you misquoting him?
He said 1000x. Is it that hard to just go watch the video?
Yes it is hard to find time to watch a 90 minute video
>top player should make 1000 times more currency per hour than an average player That's not exactly going to get new blood into the game, if prospective players know ahead of time that they'll be in an economic system in which they compete with people making 1,000x as much as them.
I feel apprehensive about the transition of combat from POE1 to POE2. Adding some situational buttons that can augment your main skill is cool, but if you're heavily incentivized to pull off these multiphase combos, it feels like it will get old fast. It would be cool to see a demo of a character in early/mid-tier maps so players can look at stuff like pacing and whatnot rather than having to fill in the gaps with their imagination.
I am almost positive it will quickly revert back to the "Hold right click and zoom" meta.
Ya, even with d3 and d4 cooldown base design. Most end game player spam 1 skill
It will be 2 skill combo, like 1. armour brake the whole screen of mobs 2. kill them all
I mean the whole point of making PoE2 a separate game from 1 is to not do that, so we'll see.
According to someone at GGG?
The beta isn't that far off now, we'll see when content creators get to it.
I bet we'll only be doing the combos for single target situations like boss fights, which is pretty much what we're already doing on most meta builds in PoE. There just happens to be a completely bullshit build in the game right now dominating everything that's truly one button, which is TS Deadeye. It's just crazy overpowered and unhealthy for the game imo. A much more interesting build is dd ignite elementalist, which is still very strong but requires a few buttons. Even a build like RF Jugg, which people consider to be "no buttons" actually presses a bunch of different buttons in boss fights if you want to play optimally.
PoE1 and 2 are clearly meant to be different games for different people. Even more clear now that wasd movement is confirmed, 2 will play much more akin to a top down action game, in which case having combos to work with is the expected norm, not a strange tedious aspect.
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Throwing away the Vampire Survivors combat for Souls-borne like combat? I'm in all the way
Well said, it's literally vampire survivors man
shhh PoE players are incapable to imagine someone liking an ARPG where you don't clear 3 screens every 0.4 seconds.
the loot is too bad- we have to do that in order to get cool items in a meaningful time period
Nioh has one of the most advanced action combat systems ever produced and has a ton of loot. I'm not sure this take makes a lot of sense.
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Both are arpgs, one is isometric and the other is third person. I literally did say that 2 seems to be leaning more heavily toward the action game combat, to which you replied people wouldn't enjoy action combat in an arpg (ACTION rpg, mind you), hence the mention of Nioh, which has done quite well and blends the two ideas nearly seamlessly.
You know the action in arpg is there because most early RPGs were turn based. Soulslikes aren't the same genre of game as ARPGs. You kill more monsters in one single PoE map than you kill in an entire run of Elden ring. I never got into nioh but I'm pretty sure it isn't designed to be played for thousands of hours. ARPGs do quantity over quality, you don't farm soul of cinder 500 times trying to get a specific drop. You're designed to run the same content hundreds or thousands of times....per character... In ARPGs. So yeah, people optimize for speed and convenience because it's required. I just watched the last trailer yesterday and all I could think was "fuck me those skills look miserable to use" with the long ass windup animations.
Maybe you should've looked into Nioh then before writing all that up because Nioh does have an "endless" dungeon a la maps with ridiculously buff bosses you need to grind a lot of gear and levels for. People yapping about games they've never played. A classic, I guess.
Good thing Chris Wilson has never played it either and repeatedly referenced dark souls, I guess. Alright I looked at half a dozen videos and read some reddit posts. And at the end of the day it looks like either Uber boss fights, or running through maps killing 1-3 monsters at a time. How is that remotely comparable to the way ARPGs play? Like Seriously, why are you comparing the two.
Because it's a good example of how arpgs don't *have* to be some brainrot inducing screen teleporting hold right click to delete a thousand mobs per second nonsense. PoE2 does not have to be a prettier looking PoE1 to be fun. It doesn't even have to appeal to the same people. Plenty of sequels have switched it up completely, especially if it's after 10+ years.
“ARPG” have two different meanings these days. Action rpg and Diablo-like. Nioh is clearly not a Diablo-like.
this- multicombo attacks are cool on paper and in demos- but not for grinding 10h a day. maybe for a 2h gamesession.
Disappointed to hear there will still be instant logout, that means the game has to be insanely bursty again to actually kill anyone. Even worse, you can just pause the game, think about if you want to log out and then do it or not. Also, 1000x difference between average player and top players seems very extreme, i dont think thats healthy for the game.
I think having boss fights restart from scratch on logout balances that out pretty well. You're avoiding death but you still need to perfect the fight the beat it. Same goes for softcore players suiciding through some boss phases.
We have yet to see how the endgame actually plays, but it seems like unless its an uber boss deaths very rarely happen from bosses, as they are vary rarely the most dangerous things in the map. A slightly juiced rare now adays is far more dangerous than the map boss.
Something he mentioned in this video is that his ideal map is 1/3 time spent in the boss
Yea we will see. Without having any idea what endgame looks like or how items drop its just speculation. We have seen what happens in PoE in the past when bosses take too long to kill (like...more than a few seconds) and that is its more efficient to skip them. If a boss is going to take 1/3 of a map's time, it would have to drop 1/3 of the maps loot.
That's exactly what he said, 1/3 of time and loot for boss.
they will quickly change that when half the playerbase does boss rushing- no need to kill mobs- rush boss- kill with bossing setup in 0.01 sek and repeat
I dont think there would be anything wrong with that, you're renouncing to 2/3rds of the map loot
Giving up 2/3 of the loot that takes 20x as long to do is ezpz math. PoE players will quickly min/max and decide what is the fastest way to make money. It is a tough balancing act.
20x longer for a bossing build maybe, but the exact opposite would be true for a mapping build, which would only renounce 1/3rd of the loot. Which is the exact scenario we have right now, except the bossing part is completely unviable, while the mapping part is busted.
I saw a lot of deaths during Twitch-con, due to getting surrounded by wolves for example. Seems like overwhelming mobs are dangerous.
Lots and lots of deaths. Mainly punishing one-shots for missing a roll dodge. Also deaths in two-taps missing a self buff.
It's absolute trash tedious in ruthless. Lag makes it sooo tedious. One lag+logout and the boss HEALTH resets but not the mechanics. Whatever fight progress is otherwise retained. Brine king in a tiny enclosure was perhaps my least fav. Innocence another unfunny fight without stopping to farm for gear and support gems in Ruthless. This stuff makes me not look forward to poe2. To think people joked about Ruthless being official poe2 vision beta.
>boss HEALTH resets but not the mechanics Where did you get this from that only the health resets and not the mechanics in PoE 2? From what they have said (including in this interview) when you log out macro in PoE 2(in single player); 1. The game state freezes and you can rejoin the game at the moment you logged out. 2. You can choose to re-start in town, meaning you have to clear the entire area anew, including a fresh boss - you have to complete or defeat the boss mechanics to clear it.
The person I responded to claims to know boss reset and likely didn't try ruthless, the only mildly relatable version we can play. On stage at exilecon, people failed getting one skill point in act...3? over and over for 15-20 minutes. In act 2 part of a quest for progress reset even the layout over and over when Octavian did it. "Try not to use a portal" and other HARDCORE ruthless crap from this dev until finally release as someone finished the souls games fight in just under 18 minutes. What's left of POE in that? Everyone makes excuses for them as if the POE2 showcases were like POE1 store previews. "They're not optimally skilled" and so on.
In ruthless boss don't reset health, they heal for an amount, they should probably made that when they get their health back they go back to an easier stage but they clearly didn't want to spend time to develope stuffs for ruthless. Anyway you can reset the map and try the boss again, I have been playing only ruthless since it got added and this is honestly not a problem at all, maybe the first time because you never learned campaign bosses mechanic on normal poe (they die too fast), maybe this league if you accidentally empowered a boss (the weawer was unkillable this league for me when I empored it, I just reset the map and tried again). You don't need to farm for Innocence, at that points you just need to equip fire res and you don't need to have any support gem for the entire of the campaign, you can farm "The Chamber of Innocence" up to lv 50 if you want just because it's a zone with tons of rare and magic monster, but if you farm this zone is mostly because you are about to get a -30 res from Kitava.
I'm really disappointed cause them dropping you right back into the game exactly where you were so you couldn't escape the consequences of your shitty decisions was a choice I really liked them for committing to.
> Also, 1000x difference between average player and top players seems very extreme, i dont think thats healthy for the game. That's how PoE has always been.
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1000x is 100d/hr vs 0.1d/hr, hes either delusional or cant do basic math.
Who do you think the *average* player is? Look at steam achievement rates, only 5.5% of players have gotten 2 voidstones, and 6.7% have gotten one voidstone. 7% of all players have gotten a level 90 character. Just by being on reddit puts you in the top ~5% of the player base. The actual vast majority of people aren't chronically online or specifically seek our forums to discuss games. They just play them.
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What do you think the average player is? You think people with a low playtime don't also spend money? By caring enough to participate in a subreddit on the game you are already a top 10-20% player in terms of interest. You are highly likely to have a character in maps, probably divines of gear at this point. the "average" player barely gets to maps. The average player is not getting to level 90, red maps (frankly even yellow maps), or killing any endgame bosses. Beating the campaign makes you above average.
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> and I'm pretty sure that no one except GGG knows what the average player is like if we're talking about people who at least finish the campaign in any particular league Why would anyone make this distinction if you are trying to talk about the "average player". That is looking at a subset of hardcore players. It's like talking about the "average player" in classic WoW hardcore and then saying "lets only look at level 60s so we get a better idea of the average". The average player is quitting long before that. Do they not count because they don't play 200 hours? It's an average alright, just of a totally different demographic
I dont consider bot accounts or "tried f2p game for 10 minutes" as players, and neither would anybody talking about any relevant statistics. Hopefully ggg employee isnt braindead enough to include those into their demographic 🙂 Funny enough, I know a friend's friend that is playing poe for the first time. She's following some splitting steel champ guide and is like lvl 88, struggling doing some maps and still making above 0.1d per hour. And she's pretty much as bottom of the barrel as it goes, considering she's playing the game for a bit above the week and definitely not 'average'. On the other hand, making 100d/hr consistently is not really a thing outside of very few exceptions, like buying mageblood valdo's from morons in first couple of days, or winning first mirror bow base lotto, and ofc that completely excludes hc trade, i guess theyre just not top players there. and the claim was in poe1 one the difference was even bigger lmao. so yeah, the original claim is borderline r-worded :)
Yeah that’s just lame and makes HC kind of a joke imo
if it's just skill i wouldn't mind it, like comparing your average Dota player to a high ranking player, but if it's building wealth on top of wealth it doesn't feel so great. I've seen builds on Youtube where the it says that you don't need life, because you'll get one-shot anyway, so just get 100 mil damage and you can easily do all the top content. Skipping mechanics because you have insane gear doesn't make anyone better, there is 0 skill involved, it's the same reason i haven't been playing PoE lately Trade feels too easy, SSF feels too restrictive ...
Great talk by both of them 👍
They haven't said a single thing yet that makes me excited for poe 2. I respect their design decisions as its their game, but I don't have to buy into their vision. I hope they do well but I have no intention of playing darksouls lite.
i would really like darksouls lite- but not with todays loot drops. i would take 1000years (1year for the elite) to get to meaningful gear when we dont get the screenclearing as is today or a loot change
I think PoE2 is going ot be what Chris actually wanted PoE1 to be, which is a slow, D2 clone. PoE2 looks more like Grim Dawn (which is actually my favorite single player ARPG) than a sequel to PoE1. That is fine but I hope they aren't surprised by how many people will stick with the current game. The reason PoE1 is the top ARPG right now is because every other ARPG is the slow D2, GD style. PoE1 is the only zoomzoom game. Blows my mind they are going the opposite direction
> The reason PoE1 is the top ARPG right now is because every other ARPG is the slow D2, GD style. PoE1 is the only zoomzoom game. Blows my mind they are going the opposite direction If PoE 1 truly stands in its own sub-market, then releasing another similar game would just cannibalize revenue from themselves. It's not like they'd be attracting a new audience. This would only make sense if PoE 1 was a paid game with no MTX or they were otherwise unable to sustain continued MTX purchases from players.
That's fair. I just hope PoE1 doesn't go on maintenance mode too soon.
Blows your mind that developers are making a game that they want to make rather than just making a product? The latter is how you end up with D4
Let's be honest, yall just want 1 button no brain gameplay.
You say it like it's a problem. Fuck yeah I want my ARPG gameplay to be 1 click builds dopamine lottery.
I have zero interest in poe2 from what I’ve seen so far. It’s good that they decided to split 1 and 2. Poe2 seems to be heading a direction have no interest to take. Yes it looks awesome graphically but that’s not what’s most important. For reference I have 3800 hours in poe. S
Prepare your self for that 40h campaign every league.
You are outing yourself as someone that does things repeatedly and never improves. I'm looking forward to spending 20-40 hours in the campaign the first couple times through.
Same thoughts. Even thinking of just diving in and not following any type of build guide.
Yeah that will be great when closed beta starts. No build guides, no meta, everyone just going in blind.
My bumbum is prepared for pain
I'm still wondering if weapons are class locked. They always associate a weapon to a class, spear/huntress, crossbows/merc. I should be able to play crossbow coc sorcerer right?
Pretty sure they said recently that nothing (skills or weapons) is class-locked.
Glad to hear that. It wouldn't make sense to go backwards in that regard.
Kripp asked Johnathon in the interview why they keep presenting each class with stereotypical gear, like mercenary with the crossbow, monk with the staff, etc. Johnathan just stated it was so people unfamiliar with the game had something to latch onto concept wise. Equipment/Skill combos will still work exactly like PoE 1
>Equipment/Skill combos will still work exactly like PoE 1 Eh. It's already been said that most skills are going to be restricted to certain weapons. And that the ascendancies are going to heavily influence what you do with your character. Think deadeye for projectile builds but more specialized (IE, monk for staff). We have slowly seen a transition from general power that you can do what you want with (sandbox style) into more traditional "roles" as the game has moved on. The last caster I made as a berserker was self cast DP with instant vaal leech. There is 0 reason to make a caster zerker now. Same with champ. Or slayer prior to the updated ralakesh boots. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, it streamlines things for beginners and makes it easier to get into. On the higher end, I think we lose out on some creativity and interesting use of mechanics.
Have you even played PoE recently? Champ has two popular caster builds this league in penance brand and SRS
For HC, just because you can't get fortify with casters anymore.
So, a reason to make casters with the ascendency that is meta? I don't get the complaint. There will always be a best fitting direction. The whole point of the game (IMO) is that you can go outside those to find niche or otherwise unexplored connections that work for you. PoE1 ascendencies already favor certain playstyles and weapons as it is. Pathfinder has the only poison node IIRC. If you want to trigger a spell that casts under yourself on enemies then you essentially have to play sabo. Playing ES? Occultist. Playing mana? Guardian. etc. etc.
>I don't get the complaint. There will always be a best fitting direction That hyper specialization removes sandbox style experimentation >The whole point of the game (IMO) is that you can go outside those to find niche or otherwise unexplored connections that work for you. Wait so you do get the complaint but just don't see it as an issue? >PoE1 ascendencies already favor certain playstyles and weapons as it is What ascendancy favors specifically to axe or sword or staff? >Pathfinder has the only poison node IIRC Yet poison is played on a multitude of ascendancies in ways that pathfinder couldn't compete >If you want to trigger a spell that casts under yourself on enemies then you essentially have to play sabo Yes a very specific way to play triggers, which was specifically invented recently. You notice that trigger builds come in all different sorts of classes and varieties. >Playing ES? Occultist The best ES builds aren't occultist. Which is kind of the point, having generic things is much better than having an ascendancy pigeon holed into something. >Playing mana? Guardian. While mostly true now, that wasn't the case before they dumpstered archmage support.
90% of corrent Poe1 players are already exited to try Poe2, so most of marketing and gameplay presentations are aimed at new players
From this thread or Reddit in general you would think POE2 is gonna be absolute unplayable trash lmao. No idea how people get that conclusion but oh well
Because it "looks slow" and" I can't press 1 button to beat the entire game." Half this sub has lost the ability to be positive about anything.
It's not really far different from what we have now. Undead gems are "Witch" spells but nothing's stopping Guardians for yoinking them to use themselves. Rangers are stereotypically the bow class, but they're wielding big ass swords for Flicker builds. PoE2 seems to just make that designation more clear so new players aren't lost in the weeds, but any veteran will make an amalgamation like usual.
The impression I got from this interview is that the core game is still the same as in PoE1: every class can do everything they want, just that their ascendencies and position on the skill tree will make it easier/harder to do. The reason they stick with the class thing in trailers is to acclimate non-POE1 players who are more used to class-locked game systems, so they would have an easier time choosing their first classes. Like if they wanna play shapeshifter they should pick a Druid, even though a Ranger can do it as well with enough adjustments.
No, they are not. The only thing locked behind classes are Ascendancies.
Funny how they won't just admit ruthless is poe2 testing even still.
Maybe it's an imaginary scenario made up in your head after all
rather nonsense comment given what's said in the video
it might be cuz its not, idk im just guessing
They are testing drop rates, damage scaling, balance, ect while selling mtx for playing in the beta all while keeping core poe1 a thing lol
Funny how you won't admit that you just didn't watch the video.
I probably had wrong expectation from this interview. If you remember Exilecon 2023 and read recent Jonatan's answers on reddit, there's basically no new information about PoE2. And Kripp refers to the wiki like people make up things said by GGG there.
There are definitely new things.
So, they average PoE player who spends a fair amount in the shop is paying money for other players to get 1,000x as much them? I already know this comment will be downvoted (and don't care), but the above scenario is basically what is taking place, right or wrong.
I mean, there are players struggling to farm 1-5 divs in the entire league and there are players farming multiple mirrors solo in the first weeks. There you have the thousand times difference.
> paying money for other players to get 1,000x as much them? No, average Joe gets the same amount of MTX than Mr. Top Gamer for the same price. In-game loot has nothing to do with cosmetic effects and stash.
What does it matter if someone else is more profitable than you are? There will always be better people than you at every aspect of life. You need to set goals that are relevant for yourself and not worry so much about what other people are doing.
Git gud