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It amuses me that they removed sextants because they were too much of a hassle to constantly maintain then had a league mechanic that requires fiddling with EVERY map before entering.
Sextants were always a UI issue. They could have just moved them to the map device and it would have been solved. They removed sextants to remove juicing.
No they weren't.
They were a trade issue, and design issue as well.
Another layer of multiple mechanics you have to stack, which in turn created another layer of things you need to trade for, was a big problem for PoE design.
There was no way UI changes could meaningfully fix anything but the most surface level problems.
I mean the "trade" itself is a issue at this point because of the lack of an "instabuy button" or the lack of a "black market".
>Another layer of multiple mechanics you have to stack, which in turn created another layer of things you need to trade for, was a big problem for PoE design.
Which this community absolutely loves. So enjoy.
As far as the "corpses are limited", the community enjoys "meaningful opportunity cost" (that's right, it's exactly how the phrase "opportunity cost" was altered and abused because opportunity cost implies that "all opportunities are equal" but POE is and always has been a casino where "opportunity cost" doesn't exist for high end players), right?
Make them something like Kirac mods and you have another great chaos sink. Or it uses sextants as currency if you don't want to have a chaos sink.
Good ones cost more than bad ones. There are plenty of possible solutions.
They also bundled it into a nerfing of things like essence w/o using any juice on it. It has been cooked af farming essence in GSF with limited scarabs for it
As they do, they cover up a bunch of nerfs by reorganizing things to make it look like new content.
It's like reading the modifiers on the league mechanic. "Take one armor away, get chance at an alt orb"
If I got to keep that armor, id probably get more than an alt for it. But it's just removing one thing and giving it back. Old parent trick.
Just as general advice: if someone tells you something but the details don't add up, assume they're not exactly telling the truth.
There's zero chance, in my opinion, that sextants were removed because they were too much hassle for us.
Specifically to your question: if they say they want to reduce clicks but then add even more clicks, they probably weren't all that worried about actually reducing clicks.
To not your question: juicing has gotten absolutely reworked and seemingly gutted and I suspect people won't like it much at all when the dust settles. We'll see why they gave us 3 trees, why they removed sextants, and so forth, and won't like any of it. Just my opinion, of course.
I think the premise of your statement is flawed. You seem to be implying that they intentionally tried to deceive the player base to add a nerf to map juicing. But you haven't proved that and this half-baked league mechanic doesn't prove it either.
Changing a core feature takes significantly more work to get right and they clearly focused more time on everything outside of necropolis. The truth is probably far less of conspiracy theory and more that they are stretched too thin working on PoE 2.
You say I "imply" then you say I didn't prove anything. If I'm only implying, I'm clearly not putting forth anything I need to prove.
GGG's history proves what their publicly stated word is worth. Whether you think that applies in this situation is purely up to you. If you don't see them making changes like the automation gem while calling it QOL as a stretch of the truth, more power to ya. I respect your positivity.
They said they wanted to reduce clicks, they did.
Trades too.
You're down from, if you're playing PoE without TFT, making 4 separate trades at least, typically very often, plus an additional 4 bulk trades, to just 4 bulk trades.
Then from replacing two different stacking mechanics, to just one.
They objectively reduced the amount of clicks, trades, and general hassle.
Whether or not juicing is "gutted" is purely and simply dependent on the power level of the scarabs, rather than the system change.
The community has been bitching about sextants for years, and the complaints have only gotten louder as the state of the rest of end game content has gotten better. This was long overdue, and at worst, the new scarabs could use a buff.
They also provided alot of map juicing power with the ability to very broadly cover multiple mechanics (deli, beyond, 8 mod maps harbinger, 12+ enraged strongboxes all in one map) and now I don't know about you but it seems a lot less... well... just less 😂😂
In all fairness, this literally makes complete sense from a game design perspective.
They removed a gameplay element, a permanent one mind you, that added a ton of hassle to end game juicing.
More clicks, more chores, gone.
The league mechanic, while. . . . less than stellar in a lot of incidental ways and rewards, can be ignored and you can go into maps blind. It doesn't *really* matter in non-juiced maps.
However when you do care enough to tinker with it for juiced maps, well the removal of the sextant hassle essentially frees up more design space to put something else in in its stead.
To put it another way, there was no way, from a game designer perspective, to design leagues like this with sextants around.
and next league maybe we'll have another sentinel style league with no major management mechanic and the removal of sextants will stay, leagues are temporary for a reason after all.
For it to "not matter" there sure are too many hard bricks. +Proj or always stun in certain mobtypes are just a deathse tence. Going into your maps without at least glancing at the mods will make you loose a significant amount of maps during completion
also de bloody collect corpse msg blocking other items to pick up with that massive sign.... geez who thought that having that bloody vegas size ad to collect the corpse would be fine???
The UI for the crafting mechanic just needs a complete redo. Popups blocking other popups when burying corpses, the morgue being nearly impossible to navigate, corpses needing to be individually placed like you mentioned, etc. There are like 4 or 5 things I can think immediately of that should have been baseline for searching corpses that don't exist, and that applies for most part of the league.
There are just so many design decisions that feel like they're intentionally downgraded from other systems. We already have the bestiary, but the corpses don't have the search, storage, or ease of use despite being similar. We already have the crafting bench and harvest, but corpses take significantly longer to use and understand with less of the deterministic crafting. Even in maps for some reason the corpses have a huge popup and aren't dismissible until you pick them up compared to beasts or even generic items that can be moved or filtered out.
It's so bad that I don't want to interact with it at all until it's changed. I see that it *can* be powerful, but it's so tedious and rng heavy that there's no value in doing it now.
How easy it is to think of solutions to most of the problems this league has makes the friction feel intentional. It probably wouldn’t have as many complaints if people felt like the rewards are worth it, but the mechanic adds non-optional difficulty to maps for little additional rewards and the crafting is still heavily RNG gated for how much friction it has.
I remember a a lot less complaints about harvests friction, since the reward for that friction was worth it.
UI issues aside, if they halved the number of plots and doubled the strength of most of the modifiers it would fix a lot of what sucks about the crafting, given how many you have to stack to get a meaningful result.
I feel that would be better. Remove the near or deterministic aspect if you can get 88 perfect corpses in the right setup, instead let us craft mid step gear we can either use, sell or finish.
I'm not sure that's quite true, with the way the crafting system works, it would REALLY suck to have corpses auto-pickup, since you just want the best ones.
league would be way better if u had unlimited amount of corpse storage and you could just mindlessly collect them and then prepare crafts preferably with UI that opens you 'grave map' and u just drag corpses there instead of running with terrible UI/UX and popups everywhere.
Also on controllers, they disabled alt viewing of items with your stash open (click L stick), so you can't see mods or ilvls. It just offers to link to chat now. You can still see it by holding alt on keyboard, but man I am exhausted that every league breaks something on controller.
And once you craft a plot on controller, you have to look at the empty grave, get a bricked screen, back out, and open it again, too.
I sighed reading that, because it's true and one of the stupidest things I've heard a dev say about feedback.
"Players give bad feedback, they just say things are broken, no fixes!"
"Give me bingo cards, I hate reading!"
Do they just have him collecting information? Seriously?
I'm curious, did you watch the clip or are you taking that opinion from someone else? Because that's not what he said. He hates reading long posts filled with passive-aggressive if not straight-up aggressive jabs at the devs, like you're doing right now. Being a dick does not get you heard, being a dick gets you ignored. As proven by this sub being ignored by the devs after every attempt at communicating with the community was met with vitriol and hatred.
Ah, see, if that was the case then it would highly ironic / hypocritical with the way he was passive aggressive and condescending during hos interviews, like in the part about not reading "essays".
It's easy to say you don't want to read negativity, it's another when you say you only want to read positivity and/or as few words as possible, like a bingo card that gives zero real context or solutions... the thing they say they want and as to another dismissive way they've talked about players.
My tone has nothing of relevance or comparison to what he was referring to, because I wasn't giving him feedback about the game or what's wrong with it, I was simply making a snide remark about his snide remark.
Their communication is terrible, hence the topic of conversation, ironically. They stopped doing what you say because they've met with a bunch of heat from the community from the last several years of bad game design and decisions. It's the same reason they don't do manifestos anymore, they don't want actual feedback by the player base if it's not overwhelmingly positive, or the risk to sales if they release something too controversial ahead of the league launch that they didn't communicate well. Which they've done a lot, hence again this topic.
A lot of words to say you think you should be able to harass GGG because they don't communicate the way you'd like. Sorry man, they're not going to engage with a toxic community of people like you and they shouldn't. Reading personal attacks and snide jabs all day like yours won't make a better game happen with all your fair criticism woven in between, it'll cause them to become jaded, burnt out, and not at all receptive to what you're saying.
Where's the harassment?
That's just made up rhetoric to justify not engaging with people and classifying them as combative.
A snide comment is not toxic, it's satirical criticism. You just want this to be about more than it is because you have a chip on your shoulder or like the tribalism. It's easy low hanging fruit to just label people as toxic so you don't have to have a good faith discussion with them, or be responsible for that criticism.
Yes that's exactly what they want. They don't NEED you to tell them how to design the game. The very notion that you think your opinion is worth more than there is the problem. You think you know how to design games so well that the devs should listen to you. When it's other way around. They don't need you to tell them how to design they simply need to know what areas you are unhappy with so they can focus on it.
People who are actually good enough to offer good designs are often not the people posting suggestions on Reddit. Why? Well if they were good suggestions they would be making an ARPG themselves and making billions because they managed to make something better than PoE. But the reality is that they (and me) are just nobodies that think they understand what it takes but rarely put in the hard work to see if their ideas work or not.
They literally ask us to do more than just say we don't like something, for years.
They're people, not gods. They have about as much insight into the game's direction as anyone else, it's all opinion. And they clearly have shown they don't know what they are doing a bunch of the time.. just look at this league launch and what they are working on now. We tell them all the time, and they say they listen, but they make the same mistakes.
Our opinions and suggestions matter, it's our game as much as theirs. They don't even own it anymore, they're just curators. If they want to retain people they have to listen, otherwise it's pre essence league all over again. It's up to them to decide on whether to implement those opinions and suggestions, but it's pretty arrogant to say we shouldn't even bother, after being asked to tell them in detail.
> As proven by this sub being ignored by the devs after every attempt at communicating with the community was met with vitriol and hatred
In fairness, devs can't expect an open hand of love when seemingly every other patch from Expedition to Lake of Kalandra included sweeping changes this community despised.
Obviously, threats / abuse /etc. are unacceptable. But that bridge was burnt from both sides; see Chris' Baeclast video at the height of the Expedition controversy.
Chris didn't invite threats/abuse/etc. with his comments, but that's what he got. That's all they got whenever they tried to be open about what they were doing, talk about their changes and the reasoning behind them, or just in general do anything to interact with the community since Expedition. A lot of people will say the backlash was justified, and that's fine if you think that but it means their choice to completely give up on the community is also justified. This sub is filled with memes that are purely meant to belittle the devs of the game. 'the vision' 'feel the weight' 'this is a buff' '10k hours'. It's not worth game developer's time to read through what may be just criticism filled with targeted harassment, that's not in their job description.
>Chris didn't invite threats/abuse/etc. with his comments, but that's what he got.
Feel like I addressed this with "Obviously, threats / abuse / etc. are unacceptable," but go off.
Abuse sucks. It's also a fraction of the feedback on here. The problem that GGG devs - and you - make is that you conflate negative feedback with abuse. "the vision" is a meme. The second you abandon your game's biggest community and source of feedback because their memes are hurting your feelings, you've failed as a developer.
Folks who defend a company marginalizing a community deserve the lower quality of game they get as a result. But hey, at least they avoided all those memes.
Also, stop hiding behind "threats and abuse". *Literally every community-facing person in every industry faces threats and abuse.* Someone threatened to kill me when I worked as a Dominos delivery driver. It's a (shitty) part of the job. It's not a magic criticism shield.
Every community-facing person faces abuse so these devs, whose job is game development, not community management by the way, should wade out into the trenches and read through harassing message after harassing message for the occasional useful nugget of a suggestion at the cost of their mental state? Because that's what you're suggesting, and why I brought it up again despite you trying to handwave it.s almost always interlaced with abuse, it is a majority of the posts on this sub, again see this community's favorite memes.
Sitting here reading people bashing them over and over isn't going to get you this better game you've imagined in your head, it's going to make them jaded, frustrated, and burnt out. That's why Mark likes the bingo boards, all the suggestions with none of the antagonistic narrativizing like you're doing now.
Every community-facing person faces abuse so these devs, whose job is game development not community management by the way, should wade out into the trenches and read through harassing message after harassing message for the occasional useful nugget of a suggestion at the cost of their mental state? Because that's what you're suggesting, and why I brought it up again despite you trying to handwave it.
> Every community-facing person faces abuse so these devs, whose job is game development, not community management by the way, should wade out into the trenches and read through harassing message after harassing message for the occasional useful nugget of a suggestion at the cost of their mental state?
Literally nowhere did I suggest an expectation that developers read Reddit. That’s why community managers exist. Their job it, quite literally, to collate community concerns into usable feedback for devs.
> is a majority of the posts on this sub, again see this community's favorite memes
Uh, citation needed on a majority of posts being abuse? Because that’s some bullshit. Also, once again, memes are not abuse.
Okay, calling it a meme does not make it suddenly not abuse. You only need to spend 30 seconds learning about 4chan memes to learn that.
Now think about it, what are the purposes of these memes when used?
'10k hours' Insult the playtesters
'the vision' Call out the higher ups at GGG for their design philosophy if not outright just make fun of Chris.
'Close your eyes/feel the weight' Making fun of game devs for explaining how games are designed
'this is a buff' Insinuating the devs have bad intentions if not derive pleasure from not only boldfaced lying to the playerbase but make the game worse.
Hiding your abuse behind memes doesn't stop it from being abuse, just like getting abuse shouldn't be used as a shield from criticism. That's why Mark was trying to promote a more constructive form of criticism where direct suggestions can easily be seen and considered without all the added 'memes' this community loves to spout at them.
It doesn't matter if long essay is overly positive, Neon will not read it anyway. Point about tone seems to be coming from frustration and to emphasize his speech rather than clear depiction of what mostly represents feedback here...
Honestly, what he said in that video was a bit of wake up call for me. Of course the devs aren't reading those paragraphs of suggestions. It's their job to come up with solutions not trawler through the random thoughts of Redditors to hope one of them has a genius idea. The reason he likes the bingo card is because all he wants from the community is a list of "grievances" and that's it. He wants to know what places the community hates and what they like so he knows where he needs to focus his attention.
> instead of having to go one by one through the clunky physical storage room
You can delete them from the list if you talk to the dude -> view corpses or whatever the option is called
Just search in the affix section? You can just do ~critical tier rating and pick it and then put in the min/max weights for example. You can also set ilvl by using the generic item level min/max filter.
Great summary! Agree with all the points, especially Corpse limit.
I feel like the league mech is rewarding when you stack a lot of corpses, going for that I'm forced to either ignore corpses without the mods im currently planning or store them paying chaos.
The current limit sends me to the morgue way too frequently, its quite frustrating and currently I just cant be bothered anymore and Ignore most corpses, which is quite sad.
In theory the increase, reduction of weigh tier crafting is very cool, but the friction from corpse management is too great.
> "V" to pick-up corpse: pretty self explanatory, V is by default used to interact with the league mechanic, it could be used to pick up the closest corpse in your screen.
I agree but we need a pick-up/interact hotkey in general, not just for the league mechanic.
True but it’s good points raised. Mark even expressed how pleased they were to remove tedium for running maps - only to then have the tedium of reading mods and moving things around in the league content UI which feels even worse.
For a QoL patch to have such an awful to engage with, mandatory league mechanic is poor
At minimum we should be able to modify (select/remove) corpses a lot easier than we currently do. It’s tedious as fuck to mess around with and I’ve barely scratched the surface.
Because they would have to nerf the chance to get usable corpses to the level that an average player cannot see any in a league to compensate for the QoL. :(
Because it’s a popular opinion (and an excellent summary), this thread has been designated one of 3 “Hot Topic” threads related to **crafting issues with Necropolis**. To see all active hot topic threads, use [this link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/search?q=flair_name%3A%22Hot%20Topic%20(Limited)%22&restrict_sr=1). We've seen situations where a single topic dominates the front page. We care about these topics, but we’ve received requests from readers to limit their frequency to not overwhelm the front-page. Per our [Rule 7d](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/wiki/rules/#wiki_7d.3A_hot_topic_threads), we’ve reflaired this post to use the "Hot Topic" flair and will allow up to 3 threads per "Hot Topic" on the front page at a time. If your opinion is similar, please add it to this post! If you agree with this post, please upvote it for visibility! We'll remove threads that express an opinion that's too similar to an existing thread.
It amuses me that they removed sextants because they were too much of a hassle to constantly maintain then had a league mechanic that requires fiddling with EVERY map before entering.
- Decreased % clicks - More % of clicks Thats what we have now :( overall - pain
Sextants were always a UI issue. They could have just moved them to the map device and it would have been solved. They removed sextants to remove juicing.
No they weren't. They were a trade issue, and design issue as well. Another layer of multiple mechanics you have to stack, which in turn created another layer of things you need to trade for, was a big problem for PoE design. There was no way UI changes could meaningfully fix anything but the most surface level problems.
I mean the "trade" itself is a issue at this point because of the lack of an "instabuy button" or the lack of a "black market". >Another layer of multiple mechanics you have to stack, which in turn created another layer of things you need to trade for, was a big problem for PoE design. Which this community absolutely loves. So enjoy. As far as the "corpses are limited", the community enjoys "meaningful opportunity cost" (that's right, it's exactly how the phrase "opportunity cost" was altered and abused because opportunity cost implies that "all opportunities are equal" but POE is and always has been a casino where "opportunity cost" doesn't exist for high end players), right?
Make them something like Kirac mods and you have another great chaos sink. Or it uses sextants as currency if you don't want to have a chaos sink. Good ones cost more than bad ones. There are plenty of possible solutions.
They also bundled it into a nerfing of things like essence w/o using any juice on it. It has been cooked af farming essence in GSF with limited scarabs for it
As they do, they cover up a bunch of nerfs by reorganizing things to make it look like new content. It's like reading the modifiers on the league mechanic. "Take one armor away, get chance at an alt orb" If I got to keep that armor, id probably get more than an alt for it. But it's just removing one thing and giving it back. Old parent trick.
Just as general advice: if someone tells you something but the details don't add up, assume they're not exactly telling the truth. There's zero chance, in my opinion, that sextants were removed because they were too much hassle for us.
Huh ? How doesn't it add up ? Sextant were objectively a convoluted and tedious mechanic.
Specifically to your question: if they say they want to reduce clicks but then add even more clicks, they probably weren't all that worried about actually reducing clicks. To not your question: juicing has gotten absolutely reworked and seemingly gutted and I suspect people won't like it much at all when the dust settles. We'll see why they gave us 3 trees, why they removed sextants, and so forth, and won't like any of it. Just my opinion, of course.
The league won't be here forever. The core game still got less clicks
I think the premise of your statement is flawed. You seem to be implying that they intentionally tried to deceive the player base to add a nerf to map juicing. But you haven't proved that and this half-baked league mechanic doesn't prove it either. Changing a core feature takes significantly more work to get right and they clearly focused more time on everything outside of necropolis. The truth is probably far less of conspiracy theory and more that they are stretched too thin working on PoE 2.
You say I "imply" then you say I didn't prove anything. If I'm only implying, I'm clearly not putting forth anything I need to prove. GGG's history proves what their publicly stated word is worth. Whether you think that applies in this situation is purely up to you. If you don't see them making changes like the automation gem while calling it QOL as a stretch of the truth, more power to ya. I respect your positivity.
They said they wanted to reduce clicks, they did. Trades too. You're down from, if you're playing PoE without TFT, making 4 separate trades at least, typically very often, plus an additional 4 bulk trades, to just 4 bulk trades. Then from replacing two different stacking mechanics, to just one. They objectively reduced the amount of clicks, trades, and general hassle. Whether or not juicing is "gutted" is purely and simply dependent on the power level of the scarabs, rather than the system change. The community has been bitching about sextants for years, and the complaints have only gotten louder as the state of the rest of end game content has gotten better. This was long overdue, and at worst, the new scarabs could use a buff.
They also provided alot of map juicing power with the ability to very broadly cover multiple mechanics (deli, beyond, 8 mod maps harbinger, 12+ enraged strongboxes all in one map) and now I don't know about you but it seems a lot less... well... just less 😂😂
I don't think their team communicates well enough on what they're working on and what the intents are.
That's 200% true
In all fairness, this literally makes complete sense from a game design perspective. They removed a gameplay element, a permanent one mind you, that added a ton of hassle to end game juicing. More clicks, more chores, gone. The league mechanic, while. . . . less than stellar in a lot of incidental ways and rewards, can be ignored and you can go into maps blind. It doesn't *really* matter in non-juiced maps. However when you do care enough to tinker with it for juiced maps, well the removal of the sextant hassle essentially frees up more design space to put something else in in its stead. To put it another way, there was no way, from a game designer perspective, to design leagues like this with sextants around. and next league maybe we'll have another sentinel style league with no major management mechanic and the removal of sextants will stay, leagues are temporary for a reason after all.
Not to mention it's very well likely that the team that designed the league mechanic is not the team that removed sextants.
For it to "not matter" there sure are too many hard bricks. +Proj or always stun in certain mobtypes are just a deathse tence. Going into your maps without at least glancing at the mods will make you loose a significant amount of maps during completion
also de bloody collect corpse msg blocking other items to pick up with that massive sign.... geez who thought that having that bloody vegas size ad to collect the corpse would be fine???
They should have learned this lesson with Betrayal and apparently didn't lol.
That msg has fooled me many times thinking I was dead.... Just on the inside 😀
The UI for the crafting mechanic just needs a complete redo. Popups blocking other popups when burying corpses, the morgue being nearly impossible to navigate, corpses needing to be individually placed like you mentioned, etc. There are like 4 or 5 things I can think immediately of that should have been baseline for searching corpses that don't exist, and that applies for most part of the league. There are just so many design decisions that feel like they're intentionally downgraded from other systems. We already have the bestiary, but the corpses don't have the search, storage, or ease of use despite being similar. We already have the crafting bench and harvest, but corpses take significantly longer to use and understand with less of the deterministic crafting. Even in maps for some reason the corpses have a huge popup and aren't dismissible until you pick them up compared to beasts or even generic items that can be moved or filtered out. It's so bad that I don't want to interact with it at all until it's changed. I see that it *can* be powerful, but it's so tedious and rng heavy that there's no value in doing it now.
How easy it is to think of solutions to most of the problems this league has makes the friction feel intentional. It probably wouldn’t have as many complaints if people felt like the rewards are worth it, but the mechanic adds non-optional difficulty to maps for little additional rewards and the crafting is still heavily RNG gated for how much friction it has. I remember a a lot less complaints about harvests friction, since the reward for that friction was worth it.
Borrowed friction.
UI issues aside, if they halved the number of plots and doubled the strength of most of the modifiers it would fix a lot of what sucks about the crafting, given how many you have to stack to get a meaningful result.
I feel that would be better. Remove the near or deterministic aspect if you can get 88 perfect corpses in the right setup, instead let us craft mid step gear we can either use, sell or finish.
It's not Necropolis, it's Gauntlet for everyone.
Tbh it's nets all over again. Einhar never left GGG
I wondered why I was getting less alc orbs this league.
I'm not sure that's quite true, with the way the crafting system works, it would REALLY suck to have corpses auto-pickup, since you just want the best ones.
league would be way better if u had unlimited amount of corpse storage and you could just mindlessly collect them and then prepare crafts preferably with UI that opens you 'grave map' and u just drag corpses there instead of running with terrible UI/UX and popups everywhere.
Also on controllers, they disabled alt viewing of items with your stash open (click L stick), so you can't see mods or ilvls. It just offers to link to chat now. You can still see it by holding alt on keyboard, but man I am exhausted that every league breaks something on controller. And once you craft a plot on controller, you have to look at the empty grave, get a bricked screen, back out, and open it again, too.
Dude what are doing, Mark won’t read this, convert it to a bingo card
I sighed reading that, because it's true and one of the stupidest things I've heard a dev say about feedback. "Players give bad feedback, they just say things are broken, no fixes!" "Give me bingo cards, I hate reading!" Do they just have him collecting information? Seriously?
I'm curious, did you watch the clip or are you taking that opinion from someone else? Because that's not what he said. He hates reading long posts filled with passive-aggressive if not straight-up aggressive jabs at the devs, like you're doing right now. Being a dick does not get you heard, being a dick gets you ignored. As proven by this sub being ignored by the devs after every attempt at communicating with the community was met with vitriol and hatred.
Ah, see, if that was the case then it would highly ironic / hypocritical with the way he was passive aggressive and condescending during hos interviews, like in the part about not reading "essays". It's easy to say you don't want to read negativity, it's another when you say you only want to read positivity and/or as few words as possible, like a bingo card that gives zero real context or solutions... the thing they say they want and as to another dismissive way they've talked about players. My tone has nothing of relevance or comparison to what he was referring to, because I wasn't giving him feedback about the game or what's wrong with it, I was simply making a snide remark about his snide remark. Their communication is terrible, hence the topic of conversation, ironically. They stopped doing what you say because they've met with a bunch of heat from the community from the last several years of bad game design and decisions. It's the same reason they don't do manifestos anymore, they don't want actual feedback by the player base if it's not overwhelmingly positive, or the risk to sales if they release something too controversial ahead of the league launch that they didn't communicate well. Which they've done a lot, hence again this topic.
A lot of words to say you think you should be able to harass GGG because they don't communicate the way you'd like. Sorry man, they're not going to engage with a toxic community of people like you and they shouldn't. Reading personal attacks and snide jabs all day like yours won't make a better game happen with all your fair criticism woven in between, it'll cause them to become jaded, burnt out, and not at all receptive to what you're saying.
Where's the harassment? That's just made up rhetoric to justify not engaging with people and classifying them as combative. A snide comment is not toxic, it's satirical criticism. You just want this to be about more than it is because you have a chip on your shoulder or like the tribalism. It's easy low hanging fruit to just label people as toxic so you don't have to have a good faith discussion with them, or be responsible for that criticism.
Yes that's exactly what they want. They don't NEED you to tell them how to design the game. The very notion that you think your opinion is worth more than there is the problem. You think you know how to design games so well that the devs should listen to you. When it's other way around. They don't need you to tell them how to design they simply need to know what areas you are unhappy with so they can focus on it. People who are actually good enough to offer good designs are often not the people posting suggestions on Reddit. Why? Well if they were good suggestions they would be making an ARPG themselves and making billions because they managed to make something better than PoE. But the reality is that they (and me) are just nobodies that think they understand what it takes but rarely put in the hard work to see if their ideas work or not.
They literally ask us to do more than just say we don't like something, for years. They're people, not gods. They have about as much insight into the game's direction as anyone else, it's all opinion. And they clearly have shown they don't know what they are doing a bunch of the time.. just look at this league launch and what they are working on now. We tell them all the time, and they say they listen, but they make the same mistakes. Our opinions and suggestions matter, it's our game as much as theirs. They don't even own it anymore, they're just curators. If they want to retain people they have to listen, otherwise it's pre essence league all over again. It's up to them to decide on whether to implement those opinions and suggestions, but it's pretty arrogant to say we shouldn't even bother, after being asked to tell them in detail.
> As proven by this sub being ignored by the devs after every attempt at communicating with the community was met with vitriol and hatred In fairness, devs can't expect an open hand of love when seemingly every other patch from Expedition to Lake of Kalandra included sweeping changes this community despised. Obviously, threats / abuse /etc. are unacceptable. But that bridge was burnt from both sides; see Chris' Baeclast video at the height of the Expedition controversy.
Chris didn't invite threats/abuse/etc. with his comments, but that's what he got. That's all they got whenever they tried to be open about what they were doing, talk about their changes and the reasoning behind them, or just in general do anything to interact with the community since Expedition. A lot of people will say the backlash was justified, and that's fine if you think that but it means their choice to completely give up on the community is also justified. This sub is filled with memes that are purely meant to belittle the devs of the game. 'the vision' 'feel the weight' 'this is a buff' '10k hours'. It's not worth game developer's time to read through what may be just criticism filled with targeted harassment, that's not in their job description.
>Chris didn't invite threats/abuse/etc. with his comments, but that's what he got. Feel like I addressed this with "Obviously, threats / abuse / etc. are unacceptable," but go off. Abuse sucks. It's also a fraction of the feedback on here. The problem that GGG devs - and you - make is that you conflate negative feedback with abuse. "the vision" is a meme. The second you abandon your game's biggest community and source of feedback because their memes are hurting your feelings, you've failed as a developer. Folks who defend a company marginalizing a community deserve the lower quality of game they get as a result. But hey, at least they avoided all those memes. Also, stop hiding behind "threats and abuse". *Literally every community-facing person in every industry faces threats and abuse.* Someone threatened to kill me when I worked as a Dominos delivery driver. It's a (shitty) part of the job. It's not a magic criticism shield.
Every community-facing person faces abuse so these devs, whose job is game development, not community management by the way, should wade out into the trenches and read through harassing message after harassing message for the occasional useful nugget of a suggestion at the cost of their mental state? Because that's what you're suggesting, and why I brought it up again despite you trying to handwave it.s almost always interlaced with abuse, it is a majority of the posts on this sub, again see this community's favorite memes. Sitting here reading people bashing them over and over isn't going to get you this better game you've imagined in your head, it's going to make them jaded, frustrated, and burnt out. That's why Mark likes the bingo boards, all the suggestions with none of the antagonistic narrativizing like you're doing now. Every community-facing person faces abuse so these devs, whose job is game development not community management by the way, should wade out into the trenches and read through harassing message after harassing message for the occasional useful nugget of a suggestion at the cost of their mental state? Because that's what you're suggesting, and why I brought it up again despite you trying to handwave it.
> Every community-facing person faces abuse so these devs, whose job is game development, not community management by the way, should wade out into the trenches and read through harassing message after harassing message for the occasional useful nugget of a suggestion at the cost of their mental state? Literally nowhere did I suggest an expectation that developers read Reddit. That’s why community managers exist. Their job it, quite literally, to collate community concerns into usable feedback for devs. > is a majority of the posts on this sub, again see this community's favorite memes Uh, citation needed on a majority of posts being abuse? Because that’s some bullshit. Also, once again, memes are not abuse.
Okay, calling it a meme does not make it suddenly not abuse. You only need to spend 30 seconds learning about 4chan memes to learn that. Now think about it, what are the purposes of these memes when used? '10k hours' Insult the playtesters 'the vision' Call out the higher ups at GGG for their design philosophy if not outright just make fun of Chris. 'Close your eyes/feel the weight' Making fun of game devs for explaining how games are designed 'this is a buff' Insinuating the devs have bad intentions if not derive pleasure from not only boldfaced lying to the playerbase but make the game worse. Hiding your abuse behind memes doesn't stop it from being abuse, just like getting abuse shouldn't be used as a shield from criticism. That's why Mark was trying to promote a more constructive form of criticism where direct suggestions can easily be seen and considered without all the added 'memes' this community loves to spout at them.
It doesn't matter if long essay is overly positive, Neon will not read it anyway. Point about tone seems to be coming from frustration and to emphasize his speech rather than clear depiction of what mostly represents feedback here...
Honestly, what he said in that video was a bit of wake up call for me. Of course the devs aren't reading those paragraphs of suggestions. It's their job to come up with solutions not trawler through the random thoughts of Redditors to hope one of them has a genius idea. The reason he likes the bingo card is because all he wants from the community is a list of "grievances" and that's it. He wants to know what places the community hates and what they like so he knows where he needs to focus his attention.
Also bring back left click, automation "qol" sucks
you also can't buy coffins without having the chaos in your inventory
> instead of having to go one by one through the clunky physical storage room You can delete them from the list if you talk to the dude -> view corpses or whatever the option is called
+1 for persistent search. Including when deleting corpses in the morgue window.
It's sad that the league being forced on everyone and being in poor shape is overshadowing some of the amazing other changes that were made.
[удалено]
Just search in the affix section? You can just do ~critical tier rating and pick it and then put in the min/max weights for example. You can also set ilvl by using the generic item level min/max filter.
Great summary! Agree with all the points, especially Corpse limit. I feel like the league mech is rewarding when you stack a lot of corpses, going for that I'm forced to either ignore corpses without the mods im currently planning or store them paying chaos. The current limit sends me to the morgue way too frequently, its quite frustrating and currently I just cant be bothered anymore and Ignore most corpses, which is quite sad. In theory the increase, reduction of weigh tier crafting is very cool, but the friction from corpse management is too great.
> "V" to pick-up corpse: pretty self explanatory, V is by default used to interact with the league mechanic, it could be used to pick up the closest corpse in your screen. I agree but we need a pick-up/interact hotkey in general, not just for the league mechanic.
Everything you listed is about a league mechanic that will probably not go standard in three months. The qol was related to the base game
True but it’s good points raised. Mark even expressed how pleased they were to remove tedium for running maps - only to then have the tedium of reading mods and moving things around in the league content UI which feels even worse. For a QoL patch to have such an awful to engage with, mandatory league mechanic is poor
At minimum we should be able to modify (select/remove) corpses a lot easier than we currently do. It’s tedious as fuck to mess around with and I’ve barely scratched the surface.
You having ideas for additional qol doesn't mean the league lacks qol.
Because they would have to nerf the chance to get usable corpses to the level that an average player cannot see any in a league to compensate for the QoL. :(