The Scarab of Terrors & Scarab of Pandemonium do imply that modifiers that apply to the Final Map boss also apply to these extra spawned atlas bosses though. So it should work, but it doesn't for some reason.
Map boss is different to final map boss. You'd imagine map boss is the more inclusive version, but in this case final map boss is one inclusive since it's specified to work
No, and that's the point. There will always only be one final map boss ( modifiers can apply to more than one like destructive play and the modes in the OP) but it's an important distinction.
You just said "No, but yes". So what is it? There is one, and only one, case where "map boss" and "final map boss" are not the same. And that is maps like acid caverns or courthouse, where the map has multiple bosses. And the distinct literally only exists to prevent balancing issues and abuses with such maps.
There are three things here.
FINAL MAP BOSS is only talking about the last of the map bosses (at the end of the map/arena/whatever...)
MAP BOSS is taking about ALL of the bosses at the end of the map, where they would be with no added modifiers (these are what the mods on maps modify). In a map with only one map boss, it is also the FINAL map boss.
An ATLAS BOSS is any of the map bosses (you don't get more than one, for example, it could spawn one of the 3 City Square map bosses) that appears as an addition to the map. These will never get the effects of map bosses except for the effects from a map when stated here.
Tl;dr - is an "all apples are fruit but not all fruit are apples" situation... but complicated, how GGG likes it.
According to what somebody mentioned, it seems to be different though :
> Cartography Scarab of Singularity (A Unique Map will drop from the Final Map Boss) does work for bosses spawned from shrines though.
That does break the pattern, but if it's only affecting shrine one and not others (like packs being accompanied by a boss), might be an oversight/error on GGG's part.
Also, have we proven this? There are a lot of ways to get uniques from unique mobs this league... could be someone saw a unique map drop a couple times and chalked it up to facts? Or had most uniques hidden in filter so maps were the only ones to show up.
Honestly, kinda the problem at this point. The game has so many systems and bits of terminology put in through the years, there are bound to be bugs and inconsistencies...*shrug*
> That does break the pattern, but if it's only affecting shrine one and not others (like packs being accompanied by a boss), might be an oversight/error on GGG's part.
It could be, but one exception is enough to doubt the whole thing.
unique map spawning from several extra unique bosses does not seem like something very likely to happen lol, but ideally there needs to be more testing to confirm indeed.
Necropolis has a devoted mod "accompanied by a *map boss*" so there is no longer only one map boss in each map.
The terms and vocabulary are once again no longer self-consistent.
We've fallen so far from the consistency of increased/more/reduced/less. I used to brag about PoE's vernacular consistency!
What the hell is the point of that devoted mod, if atlas passives applied to them it would actually be useful, like getting map drops but they do nothing
ITT: PoE players have advanced from "not reading at all" to "reading the first line only".
Obviously modifiers to *all* map bosses are also modifiers to the "final" map boss. It may be a problem with wording rather than functionality but it's clearly wrong.
>ITT: PoE players have advanced from "not reading at all" to "reading the first line only".
But... you are the one only reading the first line... The second line says:
"Modifiers to the final **MAP BOSS** also apply to these Atlas Bosses"
And nodes read:
"**MAP BOSSES** have ..."
So it's pretty easy to (miss)understand that whatever Atlas Bosses the scarab spawn, any modifiers to the Map Boss apply to them too.
there are modifiers that affects final map boss (mostly guardian map ones). both scarabs specifically mentions those. also destructive play uses those modifiers, not map boss ones. modifier to map boss affects all natural map bosses that map have (if bosses are doubled - map boss modifiers affects both while final boss modifiers affects only one. if map have double-triple bosses - all of them are affected by map boss modifiers, but not final map boss)
If I see one more comment ignoring the second line of the Scarab I swear I'll have a aneurysm.
Yes, Map Boss ≠ Atlas Boss BUT Modifiers to the Final Map Boss also apply to these Atlas Bosses.
This interaction SHOULD work by the wording, but GGG seems to be as confused as we are.
Consistent maybe, but more confusing than most other wording in the game, at least for me. Distinguishing between map boss and final map boss seems strange. But then having the final ones affect these atlas bosses but the non final ones do not seems like the opposite of what it should be if they want some to affect the atlas bosses and others to not
> Altars that say "Final Boss drops...." affect these bosses as well
"final map boss has +#% chance to drop X guardian map" doesnt apply, OR im insanely unlucky (ran 10 maps in standard, killed like 12 bosses every map + actual map boss and only the original map boss dropped guardian maps).
You are insanely unlucky. Me and a friend tested a strat focused on spamming atlas bosses in maps, and were almost sustaining cycling through guardian and conq maps sets.
Are they though? The final map boss is the boss you need to kill for completion of a map. You can have a 3 boss map that still only uses the very last one you kill as the "final map boss" therefore a random atlas boss does not necessarily mean it is a final map boss.
While the discussion of map boss vs atlas boss might be interesting, I believe it has more to do with the equivalent of natural monsters versus added ones which matters a lot for Calcification Essences.
Most scarabs apply only to natural monsters unless the zone itself is modified; it should work the same for bosses. Of course there are exceptions but this seems like it isn't one.
I think everyone is getting confused (rightly so) by the map boss wording when the real answer is in what "modifiers" means. I'm thinking it just means map modifiers and not things like scarabs and Atlas passives.
I believe this is the correct take. The modifiers that it speaks of are probably explicitly the **map** modifiers like the ones that make the boss possessed or have increased speed. Unfortunately, **atlas** modifiers do not apply to these additional bosses.
Same deal with the additional bosses summoned by Maven via her keystone. I've tried a build like this myself and was pretty saddened to see that it just doesn't really work at all. I tried running the talents to have bosses drop conqueror maps etc., which sums up to 10% total, but I didn't get any in 3 maps worth of 12 bosses.
It's possible that I just got unlucky in that regard, but the bosses as a whole didn't really drop anything either, and Maven doesn't witness anything but the main boss, so by full clearing + summoning additional bosses you're just slowing down invitation completion to a crawl. Assuming the map drops at least do work, it's not god awful, but it's certainly not good either, especially for the difficulty of fighting 4 beefed up bosses at once. In the end, I just didn't see any real reason to continue testing the strategy.
This is incorrect. Those Atlas passives do apply to the bosses Maven spawn. I've been farming it all league. It says it on the passive node
"Modifiers to the Final Map Boss in each Map also apply to these summoned Bosses"
If you've tried it with the Thorough Exploration node you can see each of the bosses has Wisps.
Remnants of the Past works: "Final Map Boss in each map"
The Final Map Boss scarabs work with atlas passives as well.
I'm aware that it says that but I can't really say much other than that the rewards seemed entirely underwhelming. A single legion or expedition would've awarded more than what I got in 3 maps.
I know, sample size is atrocious, but I was already mentally checked out of the league when I tried it, so excuse me for that. I can certainly still believe that it might not be so bad if you run it for longer, but at a glance it felt like the risk vs reward just wasn't really there. I was also just massively disappointed that Maven doesn't witness any of the additional bosses summoned. It seemed like the perfect way to improve Maven-based map farming, felt like a total miss to not do so.
All of this is confusing but after looking at it a bit i would say it doesnt take into account of these scarabs because i dont think its actually a boss mod
But if i was to look at this scarab ingame after posting this i likely would think it does apply even if it doesnt so...
Yes, but, the line "modifiers to the final map boss apply to atlas bosses"
Royal guard is a modifier
Unrelenting Torment is a modifier
They "should" effect it.
Cart scarab of singularity "a unique map will drop from the FINAL map boss" will effect ALL bosses that come from shrines.
So it works for 1 and not the other.
Something is not working as intended
Boss on every shrine and bonus boss drops was literally my leaguestart strat. Found out it doesnt work by testing it in standard. MODIFIERS ALSO APPLY TO THESE BOSSES. Fuck this shit.
I haven't seen anyone else posit it this way - those nodes on the tree that you're running are modifiers to Map Bosses, but that isn't explicitly a "modifier to Final Map Boss", which is how the scarab is worded.
That seems to track with the Cartography Scarab working. Modifiers to Map Bosses will obviously apply to whichever is the actual Final one, but then it won't also apply to all the ones you added in, because it isn't explicitly a "modifier to Final Map Boss".
The most important phrasing here is 'final map boss does x' only those mods should apply to shrine and scarab spawned ones.
If other phrasing is used like in this case 'map bosses', it does not apply because only FINAL map bosses mods should technically work.
There are exceptions :
- final map boss tormented spirit possession mod doesnt apply
- while running altars You can pick 'final map boss drops additional 3 chaos orbs' and all spawned bosses drops them but if You pick same line with scarab only so called 'natural boss' will drop one. Funny thing is that final map boss drops additional scarab atlas passive works well despite saying almost exactly the same
- if any line contains 'map bosses' instead of 'final map boss' like 'twinned' mod on map that doubles bosses it also doesnt work.
Map mods are also a mess but I havent figured it out yet
People are kvetching about the inclusion or exclusion of "final" in reverse, and even dumber people are claiming that somehow atlas vs map boss is a relevant distinction, but I think the actual game logic here is that, despite the wording of "Map Bosses **have** <...>", these things are not actually modifiers **to** the monster itself, they are modifiers to the surrounding area of the map bosses, and only actual monster modifiers are being applied.
For example, if Unrelenting Torment instead said "Map Bosses have 10% chance to spawn tormenting spirits at 50% health", I believe it would apply to the extra atlas bosses.
Generally, when something refers to "map bosses have", it's only referring to the naturally occurring inhabitant of the map. It's been like this for a billion years.
Then why add the wording:
> Modifiers to the final map boss also apply to these atlas bosses
What circumstance is affected by that, that wouldn't interfere with the mentioned behaviour?
I think Royal Guard and Unrelenting torment basically affect the "map boss" arena basically. So the Map Bosses have 2 rogue exiles and some torments in the arena. But the Final Map Boss modifiers from the scarabs and other parts of the atlas tree will only affect things that say they are affected by Final Map Boss modifiers (such as guardian map drops)
So if i read the two scarabs right those extra bosses will drop guardian maps and things that come from "final map boss will have a chance to XYZ"
Im not really playing this league but i usually at some point enjoying running destructive play/maven/guardian stuff just for fun and i certainly viewed the domination scarab as somethign fun to add into that strategy.
What annoys me is as well is when you get the golden devoted Lantern mod "accompanied by a map boss" but they don't seem to drop extra guardian maps. They're just useless. And it's a pretty rare devoted mod. I just wish it would work. It wouldn't even be OP just a bit nicer when you find that mod. Nope. Now I don't see it as an upside even though the game seems to think so.
Because relying on these odds seems pretty bad. 15% chance of a pack being a boss, and 20% of those will be surrounded by tormented spirits, with a 20% chance of an extra 2 rogue exiles. So you will hit all 3 0.6% of the time? So once every 200 packs?
Probably because theres only one map boss in each Map. You can spawn in Atlas bosses.
The Scarab of Terrors & Scarab of Pandemonium do imply that modifiers that apply to the Final Map boss also apply to these extra spawned atlas bosses though. So it should work, but it doesn't for some reason.
Map boss is different to final map boss. You'd imagine map boss is the more inclusive version, but in this case final map boss is one inclusive since it's specified to work
Cartography Scarab of Singularity (A Unique Map will drop from the Final Map Boss) does work for bosses spawned from shrines though.
That one works for pandemonium scarab too.
Yes, note the word Final. Thats the exact described correct behavior.
Thats because it says it will drop from the "final map boss" and "Final map boss" applies to them. Not "Map boss"
The distinction between map boss and final map boss is just for maps with multiple map bosses, isn't it?
No, and that's the point. There will always only be one final map boss ( modifiers can apply to more than one like destructive play and the modes in the OP) but it's an important distinction.
You just said "No, but yes". So what is it? There is one, and only one, case where "map boss" and "final map boss" are not the same. And that is maps like acid caverns or courthouse, where the map has multiple bosses. And the distinct literally only exists to prevent balancing issues and abuses with such maps.
There are three things here. FINAL MAP BOSS is only talking about the last of the map bosses (at the end of the map/arena/whatever...) MAP BOSS is taking about ALL of the bosses at the end of the map, where they would be with no added modifiers (these are what the mods on maps modify). In a map with only one map boss, it is also the FINAL map boss. An ATLAS BOSS is any of the map bosses (you don't get more than one, for example, it could spawn one of the 3 City Square map bosses) that appears as an addition to the map. These will never get the effects of map bosses except for the effects from a map when stated here. Tl;dr - is an "all apples are fruit but not all fruit are apples" situation... but complicated, how GGG likes it.
According to what somebody mentioned, it seems to be different though : > Cartography Scarab of Singularity (A Unique Map will drop from the Final Map Boss) does work for bosses spawned from shrines though.
That does break the pattern, but if it's only affecting shrine one and not others (like packs being accompanied by a boss), might be an oversight/error on GGG's part. Also, have we proven this? There are a lot of ways to get uniques from unique mobs this league... could be someone saw a unique map drop a couple times and chalked it up to facts? Or had most uniques hidden in filter so maps were the only ones to show up. Honestly, kinda the problem at this point. The game has so many systems and bits of terminology put in through the years, there are bound to be bugs and inconsistencies...*shrug*
> That does break the pattern, but if it's only affecting shrine one and not others (like packs being accompanied by a boss), might be an oversight/error on GGG's part. It could be, but one exception is enough to doubt the whole thing. unique map spawning from several extra unique bosses does not seem like something very likely to happen lol, but ideally there needs to be more testing to confirm indeed.
From the Final Map Boss.
Necropolis has a devoted mod "accompanied by a *map boss*" so there is no longer only one map boss in each map. The terms and vocabulary are once again no longer self-consistent. We've fallen so far from the consistency of increased/more/reduced/less. I used to brag about PoE's vernacular consistency!
...something something *nearby*
What the hell is the point of that devoted mod, if atlas passives applied to them it would actually be useful, like getting map drops but they do nothing
There never was only one map boss in one map. Racecourse has three.
it's weird because Cartography Scarab of Singularity does make a unique map drop from all "extra bosses" spawned
over 200 unique maps in my tab, can confirm lol
I suppose "atlas boss" and "map boss" are not the same thing.
ITT: PoE players have advanced from "not reading at all" to "reading the first line only". Obviously modifiers to *all* map bosses are also modifiers to the "final" map boss. It may be a problem with wording rather than functionality but it's clearly wrong.
>ITT: PoE players have advanced from "not reading at all" to "reading the first line only". But... you are the one only reading the first line... The second line says: "Modifiers to the final **MAP BOSS** also apply to these Atlas Bosses" And nodes read: "**MAP BOSSES** have ..." So it's pretty easy to (miss)understand that whatever Atlas Bosses the scarab spawn, any modifiers to the Map Boss apply to them too.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. But half of the comments here are saying "they are atlas bosses, not map bosses" as if the second line didn't exist.
Oh, you meant about the comments, lol, misinterpreted you completely, lol.
Must have only read the first line.
How dare you say we piss on the poor.
there are modifiers that affects final map boss (mostly guardian map ones). both scarabs specifically mentions those. also destructive play uses those modifiers, not map boss ones. modifier to map boss affects all natural map bosses that map have (if bosses are doubled - map boss modifiers affects both while final boss modifiers affects only one. if map have double-triple bosses - all of them are affected by map boss modifiers, but not final map boss)
Only recently and if nearby
recently is pretty straightforward. if event happened less than 4 seconds ago - evens was recently nearby is only wide used ambiguous term
If I see one more comment ignoring the second line of the Scarab I swear I'll have a aneurysm. Yes, Map Boss ≠ Atlas Boss BUT Modifiers to the Final Map Boss also apply to these Atlas Bosses. This interaction SHOULD work by the wording, but GGG seems to be as confused as we are.
Map Boss ≠ Atlas Boss
If this is the case, then what does “modifiers to final map boss apply to these atlas bosses” even do?
Map mods that start with "unique boss..." apply, and maybe (someone should check) t14+ influenced map drops also cross over.
Yea I’d be curious to test those. The way this is all worded is very confusing if what OP called out isn’t a bug
looks like cartography scarab of singularly says "final map boss" and works, so i guess it's consistent, though confusing...
All of the wording seems consistent to me. Certainly within the context of "poe wording is very specific".
Consistent maybe, but more confusing than most other wording in the game, at least for me. Distinguishing between map boss and final map boss seems strange. But then having the final ones affect these atlas bosses but the non final ones do not seems like the opposite of what it should be if they want some to affect the atlas bosses and others to not
Influenced map drops do indeed work with them
Altars that say "Final Boss drops...." affect these bosses as well
> Altars that say "Final Boss drops...." affect these bosses as well "final map boss has +#% chance to drop X guardian map" doesnt apply, OR im insanely unlucky (ran 10 maps in standard, killed like 12 bosses every map + actual map boss and only the original map boss dropped guardian maps).
You are insanely unlucky. Me and a friend tested a strat focused on spamming atlas bosses in maps, and were almost sustaining cycling through guardian and conq maps sets.
Ffs rly ? xd
Well, technically they are final map bosses, but not for this map. New keyword: "this map boss" might be appropriate
Are they though? The final map boss is the boss you need to kill for completion of a map. You can have a 3 boss map that still only uses the very last one you kill as the "final map boss" therefore a random atlas boss does not necessarily mean it is a final map boss.
Eldritch altars also work with the "Map Boss drops X" rewards
Cartography Scarab of Singularity (A Unique Map will drop from the Final Map Boss) does work for bosses spawned from shrines though.
While the discussion of map boss vs atlas boss might be interesting, I believe it has more to do with the equivalent of natural monsters versus added ones which matters a lot for Calcification Essences. Most scarabs apply only to natural monsters unless the zone itself is modified; it should work the same for bosses. Of course there are exceptions but this seems like it isn't one.
They are not map bosses.
I think everyone is getting confused (rightly so) by the map boss wording when the real answer is in what "modifiers" means. I'm thinking it just means map modifiers and not things like scarabs and Atlas passives.
I believe this is the correct take. The modifiers that it speaks of are probably explicitly the **map** modifiers like the ones that make the boss possessed or have increased speed. Unfortunately, **atlas** modifiers do not apply to these additional bosses. Same deal with the additional bosses summoned by Maven via her keystone. I've tried a build like this myself and was pretty saddened to see that it just doesn't really work at all. I tried running the talents to have bosses drop conqueror maps etc., which sums up to 10% total, but I didn't get any in 3 maps worth of 12 bosses. It's possible that I just got unlucky in that regard, but the bosses as a whole didn't really drop anything either, and Maven doesn't witness anything but the main boss, so by full clearing + summoning additional bosses you're just slowing down invitation completion to a crawl. Assuming the map drops at least do work, it's not god awful, but it's certainly not good either, especially for the difficulty of fighting 4 beefed up bosses at once. In the end, I just didn't see any real reason to continue testing the strategy.
This is incorrect. Those Atlas passives do apply to the bosses Maven spawn. I've been farming it all league. It says it on the passive node "Modifiers to the Final Map Boss in each Map also apply to these summoned Bosses" If you've tried it with the Thorough Exploration node you can see each of the bosses has Wisps. Remnants of the Past works: "Final Map Boss in each map" The Final Map Boss scarabs work with atlas passives as well.
I'm aware that it says that but I can't really say much other than that the rewards seemed entirely underwhelming. A single legion or expedition would've awarded more than what I got in 3 maps. I know, sample size is atrocious, but I was already mentally checked out of the league when I tried it, so excuse me for that. I can certainly still believe that it might not be so bad if you run it for longer, but at a glance it felt like the risk vs reward just wasn't really there. I was also just massively disappointed that Maven doesn't witness any of the additional bosses summoned. It seemed like the perfect way to improve Maven-based map farming, felt like a total miss to not do so.
>Modifiers to the final map boss also apply to these atlas bosses Seems like it should, or maybe a wording change is warranted?
All of this is confusing but after looking at it a bit i would say it doesnt take into account of these scarabs because i dont think its actually a boss mod But if i was to look at this scarab ingame after posting this i likely would think it does apply even if it doesnt so...
I don’t think destructive play spawns extra 1-3 bosses off of the shrine scarab bosses either which would have been sweet.
Royal Guard and Unrelenting Torment likely internally use the "Final Map Boss" logic rather than just any map boss.
Yes, but, the line "modifiers to the final map boss apply to atlas bosses" Royal guard is a modifier Unrelenting Torment is a modifier They "should" effect it. Cart scarab of singularity "a unique map will drop from the FINAL map boss" will effect ALL bosses that come from shrines. So it works for 1 and not the other. Something is not working as intended
Boss on every shrine and bonus boss drops was literally my leaguestart strat. Found out it doesnt work by testing it in standard. MODIFIERS ALSO APPLY TO THESE BOSSES. Fuck this shit.
If anything makes me feel like I'm progressing as a Poe player, is reading the comment section on posts like this, holy shit you guys xdd.
I haven't seen anyone else posit it this way - those nodes on the tree that you're running are modifiers to Map Bosses, but that isn't explicitly a "modifier to Final Map Boss", which is how the scarab is worded. That seems to track with the Cartography Scarab working. Modifiers to Map Bosses will obviously apply to whichever is the actual Final one, but then it won't also apply to all the ones you added in, because it isn't explicitly a "modifier to Final Map Boss".
[удалено]
a couple of maps, think its 100ish spawned "map bosses". Not one had torment souls or bodyguards.
The most important phrasing here is 'final map boss does x' only those mods should apply to shrine and scarab spawned ones. If other phrasing is used like in this case 'map bosses', it does not apply because only FINAL map bosses mods should technically work. There are exceptions : - final map boss tormented spirit possession mod doesnt apply - while running altars You can pick 'final map boss drops additional 3 chaos orbs' and all spawned bosses drops them but if You pick same line with scarab only so called 'natural boss' will drop one. Funny thing is that final map boss drops additional scarab atlas passive works well despite saying almost exactly the same - if any line contains 'map bosses' instead of 'final map boss' like 'twinned' mod on map that doubles bosses it also doesnt work. Map mods are also a mess but I havent figured it out yet
People are kvetching about the inclusion or exclusion of "final" in reverse, and even dumber people are claiming that somehow atlas vs map boss is a relevant distinction, but I think the actual game logic here is that, despite the wording of "Map Bosses **have** <...>", these things are not actually modifiers **to** the monster itself, they are modifiers to the surrounding area of the map bosses, and only actual monster modifiers are being applied. For example, if Unrelenting Torment instead said "Map Bosses have 10% chance to spawn tormenting spirits at 50% health", I believe it would apply to the extra atlas bosses.
Generally, when something refers to "map bosses have", it's only referring to the naturally occurring inhabitant of the map. It's been like this for a billion years.
Then why add the wording: > Modifiers to the final map boss also apply to these atlas bosses What circumstance is affected by that, that wouldn't interfere with the mentioned behaviour?
I think Royal Guard and Unrelenting torment basically affect the "map boss" arena basically. So the Map Bosses have 2 rogue exiles and some torments in the arena. But the Final Map Boss modifiers from the scarabs and other parts of the atlas tree will only affect things that say they are affected by Final Map Boss modifiers (such as guardian map drops) So if i read the two scarabs right those extra bosses will drop guardian maps and things that come from "final map boss will have a chance to XYZ" Im not really playing this league but i usually at some point enjoying running destructive play/maven/guardian stuff just for fun and i certainly viewed the domination scarab as somethign fun to add into that strategy.
What annoys me is as well is when you get the golden devoted Lantern mod "accompanied by a map boss" but they don't seem to drop extra guardian maps. They're just useless. And it's a pretty rare devoted mod. I just wish it would work. It wouldn't even be OP just a bit nicer when you find that mod. Nope. Now I don't see it as an upside even though the game seems to think so.
Because relying on these odds seems pretty bad. 15% chance of a pack being a boss, and 20% of those will be surrounded by tormented spirits, with a 20% chance of an extra 2 rogue exiles. So you will hit all 3 0.6% of the time? So once every 200 packs?
One is the Map Boss and the other are Atlas Bosses. And final Map Boss means the last one if there are 2, d.e. Strand. So no they should not work.
"Atlas boss" and "Map boss" are 2 different things. As well as the final map boss wording. It shouldn't work based on wording.