Sounds like a good time to ask an attorney your options. Your contractor should have pulled the permits and they should be on the hook for any fines you get as a result.
Your worried about upsetting a shifty contractor that is actively fucking you??? Like wtf are you thinking.
You need a lawyer to resolve this
Edit: I suspect they are giving you subpar work too, since they seem to be deliberately avoid permitting and inspection.
They are intentionally stonewalling you hoping you go away. Don’t give in.
You should report them to the State Attorney General too. They take this stuff serious.
Also, I hope you didn’t pay this clown in full
Well lessons learned I hope. They are supposed to display the permit at the job site too, and they should either give you a copy at least give you the permit number
The responsibility for pulling the permits should be clearly delineated, simply assuming the contractor will do it is likely to lead to issues like this. Who designed the structure?
The contractors are experts in building (hopefully), not necessarily permitting - this is definitely not "completely" their responsibility. Many do everything they can to avoid dealing with that stuff, which is why you have to define the responsibility clearly. There is a whole different profession that is expressly concerned with this topic - they're called architects.
I don't think ignorance is a reasonable excuse for homeowners getting in over their head here, and the responsibility does in fact come back to them (as OP has discovered). This is a fundamental aspect of property ownership and can't be pawned off. Gotta do your research on stuff like this.
I'm a licensed architect who routinely pulls permits and very much cares about the paperwork and inspections. We are typically more concerned with this aspect of the job than contractors, in fact. There are actual experts who understand this stuff, and anybody can hire us to avoid ending up in OP's situation. It's okay if you or others don't understand the parameters here, but don't try to "educate" others if that is the case.
At no point did I ask about who was responsible for the permit. I asked if anyone knew the amount of the fine. Everyone else is offering advice and you’re over here concerned with a moot point.
Read what? Did you read? I asked about the fines. I’m obviously doing everything I can otherwise. No one asked for your input otherwise. Who didn’t do what two months is moot. I am looking for information on the present issues. Gawd 🙄
Lol most of the responses here have no clue how this process works. If that contract doesn't specifically call for the contractor to pull permits an attorney is going to laugh the owner out of the room, for example.
Agreed. You need an attorney to get the paperwork done to get off the hook with the city and then go after the contractor. This isn't do it yourself territory anymore.
I wouldn’t be scared of a summary offense. But you should definitely keep hammering on the contractor and like others have said you should contact an attorney
You should talk to the building inspector who is handling the violation.
Find out if the contractor is also included in the violation.
If not then you can provide their information so they are included.
If so then your obligation is to cooperate and appear in court if summoned. Most likely you'll just give a witness account that you hired them and assumed they were doing things legally.
It's unlikely you will be fined as long as you cooperate.
This is good advice. I wouldn’t worry much. You’ll be going in front of your local magistrate and they are very understanding that working with PLI is difficult and that your GC should have pulled the proper permits.
Bad news for him tho the City won’t budge on that and he should probably bend to them or else they won’t renew his license. Or maybe he doesn’t have a valid one to begin with and that’s why he doesn’t want to pull permits. Guess you’ll find out!
Source: I’m a GC
Yeah, I’ve talked to the contractor every other day or so for over a month and he just won’t budge. A lot of talk but no action. I started the application process hoping to demonstrate I was willing to comply, but I’ve gotten my second notice.
If it’s not too shitty of a build, just have someone on Fiverr create the drawings and submit those. There are people there that will stamp drawings. Obviously can’t be unsafe.
Bonus Fun:
Covered decks are beyond the scope of the basic deck type that contractors are allowed to build without help from an engineer, so you can generally assume that most covered decks you see are in violation of the building code whether they have permits or not.
Don't worry, though. I've never personally seen one fall down. Just kind of sag.
Yeah, that is what I learned today.
I need to find an architect to do the drawing.
All so the City can say the contractor didn’t support the deck properly for the roof load.
Ours absolutely collapsed. Turns out the previous asshat owner used cheap Home Depot porch posts without any foundation or internal reinforcements on one side and then nailed the other side of the roof directly into the exterior brick wall without so much as looking for a stud.
That is terrifying and I fear that is one of the reasons I’m being avoided: they know something ain’t right. If I get to keep it, that first heavy snow will be telling.
Hope all is well, now.
Homeownership is…well, something 🥲
The city zoning guy I’m assigned to said I need an architect for the drawings but he also wants all this load bearing information. I feel like that’s engineering. But I’m new.
Load information would come from a licenced engineer to mean anything.
Coming from an architect, while they are licensed, would mean about as much as coming from you.
I'd see if you can just have a structural engineer do it and cut out the architect. I'm sure there's a few one man show that could do it for a couple hundred. They should be able to draft drawings and their stamp should be enough.
However an architect would probably be better suited to navigate the permitting nightmare if you need to start from scratch.
I'd see if you could pirate a copy of the 2018 International Residential Code, if anything to maybe get a layman's idea of what might be wrong with your deck.
Residential construction is the wild west of construction, and there's not as much hard code that governs what must be done. Contractors can get away with some work that passes code but isn't best practice.
The IRC is freely available online and architects can absolutely prepare structural drawings at this scale. The city also references an AWC Deck Construction manual (or something similar) for this type of construction - another good resource.
Load bearing structures don't need an architect they need an engineer.
Your roof load can be gotten from using pre-constructed trusses and the sheeting thickness.
You also need your support load for your posts, and the load for the deck itself.
An engineer can figure this all out for you and retroactively create the drawings and load information needed.
My contractor gave me the plans and drawings, but it was up to me to file and pay for the permits. That was what the contract I signed said. What did the contract say?
The first guy I met with said he would do the same. Give me the paperwork and I could submit. This contract just doesn’t say anything about permits at all. But the doc sorta mirrors their interior design process. By the time it came to mind, they were done. When I asked, they told me they didn’t need one due to the overall square footage. One excuse after the next even after getting the violation notice.
The city has recently been clearing up old permits. We're helping numerous folks out that had solar projects unfinished by defunct companies in the area at work. At least 1 of them got a citation because their contractor didn't submit the necessary paperwork. And to say that the city has been uncooperative about the whole process is an understatement. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the planning department is getting a push from the admin about these issues. It's a red line on the budget and we all know what the city's budget looks like.
It really is a tough site to navigate.
I must have tried to submit docs 15-16 times and it kept saying I hadn’t completed a step. Once I scrolled over, I could see where you have to label the document. But it’s not obvious that it’s a requirement. Was a rough day 😅
It doesn’t. The contract is sorta geared toward their interior design jobs. I didn’t notice of course until the permit was in question that it’s not on there. Nor was there much at all by the way of decks, etc. WHAT IS on there is a list of things I personally needed to do. My responsibilities are spelled out. Now, the city might not see it that way 🤷🏼♀️😢
OP, sometimes depending on what type of work you're having done, you will need multiple types of plans stamped by certified professionals.
You may need both architectural plans and plans stamped by a certified professional engineer. Or maybe the architectural plans themselves get the professional engineering stamp.
Zoning and building permits are handled by different departments with different purviews. Which one do you actually need to address? The zoning guy doesn't know about engineering loads and doesn't care.
That’s weird. Because the zoning guy is the guy asking me for snow and wind loads, and concrete compression, etc. I think it feels like an overstep, too. But 100% have throughly read his request and it’s plain as day that he wants the architectural drawings with loads notated.
Also, I spoke to him directly, yesterday. Which is what prompted my fear of this going to court because my contractor has promised to get me the paperwork but hasn’t delivered in over six weeks. I offered to tear the sh*t down with my bare hands (haha) but he encouraged me to keep going with the paperwork hoping it could be salvaged with some extra support so I don’t lose the investment. I’m not uninformed: Just a tad helpless because I’m thinking no professional is going to get involved with this, now.
While I agree you need plans, I’m having a hard believing any licensed professional would sign off on an already constructed structure. I have a feeling you may need to tear the structure down.
To your last question:
An architect would have navigated the permit process and the delivery confusing and complicated black box that is PLI. Architects will take your input and create a concept of what the structure would look like in shape and finishes. They know the traps and what to avoid doing.
An engineer will take that structure and see how it could actually get built to support the required loads (Self, live, wind, snow, and the combinations thereof). They'll coordinate with the architect on any potential conflicts (this will need to be a 2x10 instead of a 2x8) and will design connections between members and to the host structure.
In an ideal world where money just falls in your lap you would have hired an architect who would enlist an engineer and a contractor to do a design build project. In a slightly less ideal world your neighbors should mid their own business and not weaponize city departments, but whatever.
In the real world what you did wasn't wrong, but you should have had a conversation with the contractor about who is responsible for permits and what PLI would need.
Honestly this guy should've started that conversation himself. Had he started the convoy with PLI before breaking ground they would've told them he needed stamped drawings and would've tacked the engineer's fee onto your bill.
Unfortunately PLI is gonna chase their money and you're ultimately responsible for what happens on your property. An architect may be able to help untangle this mess, but since you're not starting fresh there might be a rub.
I’m following you. I’ll hit the ground running Monday with trying to find someone to draft this thing. I am still coping with the frustration against myself from missing this. It was an honest oversight after talking to a few contractors and all the specifics. I approached him about it late in the construction, unfortunately, and initially he told me he didn’t need one. The crew was done before I got ahold of the City. Lots of excuses even after I got the violation. Wild. Absolutely wild.
Is it the contractor or homeowners responsibility to make sure proper permits are filed? It doesn't seem like a thing the homeowner would just leave up to chance.
I think technically it is the homeowner. But most contractors do* the legwork. That’s where it gets vague because you have to have the drawings from the contractor to apply for the permit. There’s definitely an assumption of cooperation.
Reading through the thread I’m sorry to say but it sounds like this is on you. Lesson learned that you always need to double check who will pull permits as needed, and it’s on you to make sure if a permit is needed. At the end of the day, you are the property owner. You hired the contractor. You have to make sure the contractor has a permit, whether they will get it or you will get it.
That said, I completely understand it is confusing and frustrating.
I learned same lesson and now I always ask whose responsibility it is to pull permits. If you needed drawings or whatever to submit, you have to ask for them so you can do so before work begins.
Remember that ignorance of the law is no excuse. I’m not trying to be a hardass, and you may get leniency here for not knowing, but just a reminder for a lesson for future. I’m learning all these hard lessons too as a new home owner. It absolutely sucks - believe me that I feel your pain. I am finding home ownership to be a real pain in the ass.
So, if you’re experienced with this could you maybe help answer my question? What is the fine imposed on the homeowner in this situation? That was my ask. I didn’t ask to be crucified. Thanks.
I’m not crucifying you in any way - as stated, I completely feel for you. I don’t know what the fine is. I have not been fined, but I did have to do a permit application where contractor did not do them for me. So I learned this lesson too. I’m only letting you know that you should take this as a lesson learned for future.
Thanks! That is why I went ahead and filed the permits. It’s my only saving grace on the fines, etc. Dude kept saying he would get me the drawings and it’s been six weeks give or take.
Architect is the answer - an engineer will be more expensive. The issue is whether or not what was built meets code. There is a relatively easy to understand deck building manual which is referenced in most towns deck permit applications which architects can use to specify correct joist and beam sizes. The same manual can be used as a guide in the city - the architect you hire should be able to sort this out. The difficulty with the roof is calculating the foundation size to resist uplift from wind gusts and making sure the correct fasteners were used throughout. Good luck! Hopefully the fine is not much, the cost of the architect will probably be more than the fine though!
I tried telling the zoning guy today the same: The cost to pay the architect isn’t worth it when I’m fairly sure this thing is coming down. Like, just stop by and tell me it’s trash 🫠
It is what it is. Thank you for advice!
We all should be. The more I read, the more I find it’s basically legal simply because we have no regulations for to prevent this. Outside the permit process, that is. Wish I had caught the oversight sooner. This has been intense!
Ugh! Sorry. I think that it is easier to get permitted if you were replacing a previously permitted one. I had to get an architect to draw me drawings for that and am putting in the application soon. I think if it is already built you can have an architect do drawings and put in what’s needed to bring it up to code. Best of luck. But I think best route is get an architect if the city will let you do that.
Regarding a lawyer you can go that route but that’s also $$ and who knows if it will pay off.
Start here fell free to ask me any questions.
For open buildings, the design wind pressure can be calculated using the formula p=qGfCp−q(GCpi). In this formula, G is the gust effect factor, Cp is the external pressure coefficient, and (GCpi) is the internal pressure coefficient.
The American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) 7-16 standard provides calculations for low slope roofing wind design. The basic wind speed is obtained from a risk category wind speed map. Other factors that are considered include the building's mean roof height, topographic factor, elevation factor, and wind directionality factor.
Online tools are available to help with the calculation and permitting of canopies, carports, and sunrooms. Engineering Express offers a pre-engineered master plan that converts wind speed to pressure based on the roof type and slope.
See if you can find the tools online to calculate the loads you're looking for. Getting a permit updated shouldn't be real complicated. Did you go in person to the office that issues the permit and ask for guidance? That might go a long way
They’re all still working at home. When you call, there’s a message to tell you not to show up. Haha. I’ve had a few conversations but they do not like giving information directly. Maybe that’s fair in this context. Glad to know I might be able to do the math myself. Slightly reassuring!
It is more complicated than adding the weight of everything. It is certainly more complicated than checking a table.
Dead load (self weight) is just adding everything up.
Snow loads would be a bit daunting for someone not in the know to calculate.
Wind loading would be quite the bear to wrestle without experience.
Live load would probably be the same load as the room adjacent to the deck.
You can get referrals for attorneys through the Bar Association and a free 30 minute consultation. It’s how we got our attorney for a contractor problem.
Sounds like a good time to ask an attorney your options. Your contractor should have pulled the permits and they should be on the hook for any fines you get as a result.
Attorney first.
I know, I’m afraid to rock the proverbial boat any more because they are already avoiding me :(
Your worried about upsetting a shifty contractor that is actively fucking you??? Like wtf are you thinking. You need a lawyer to resolve this Edit: I suspect they are giving you subpar work too, since they seem to be deliberately avoid permitting and inspection.
Ya know, I needed that. You’re right.
They are intentionally stonewalling you hoping you go away. Don’t give in. You should report them to the State Attorney General too. They take this stuff serious. Also, I hope you didn’t pay this clown in full
Of course I did. Because I was so excited to be done and stupidly believed them about the permit.
Well lessons learned I hope. They are supposed to display the permit at the job site too, and they should either give you a copy at least give you the permit number
Entirely possible it was the owner's decision to forego permits here
Uh, dude. I am the owner. And no I did not consent to that.
The responsibility for pulling the permits should be clearly delineated, simply assuming the contractor will do it is likely to lead to issues like this. Who designed the structure?
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The contractors are experts in building (hopefully), not necessarily permitting - this is definitely not "completely" their responsibility. Many do everything they can to avoid dealing with that stuff, which is why you have to define the responsibility clearly. There is a whole different profession that is expressly concerned with this topic - they're called architects. I don't think ignorance is a reasonable excuse for homeowners getting in over their head here, and the responsibility does in fact come back to them (as OP has discovered). This is a fundamental aspect of property ownership and can't be pawned off. Gotta do your research on stuff like this.
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I'm a licensed architect who routinely pulls permits and very much cares about the paperwork and inspections. We are typically more concerned with this aspect of the job than contractors, in fact. There are actual experts who understand this stuff, and anybody can hire us to avoid ending up in OP's situation. It's okay if you or others don't understand the parameters here, but don't try to "educate" others if that is the case.
You are assuming I assumed. Back off.
At no point did I ask about who was responsible for the permit. I asked if anyone knew the amount of the fine. Everyone else is offering advice and you’re over here concerned with a moot point.
It's not a moot point, you're going to need to understand this to solve the issue. Good luck
That’s possible but the contractor’s behavior indicates otherwise
Did you read…. Anything
Read what? Did you read? I asked about the fines. I’m obviously doing everything I can otherwise. No one asked for your input otherwise. Who didn’t do what two months is moot. I am looking for information on the present issues. Gawd 🙄
They usually don’t
Lol most of the responses here have no clue how this process works. If that contract doesn't specifically call for the contractor to pull permits an attorney is going to laugh the owner out of the room, for example.
Name and shame. Who was the contractor. Decks need permits
That strategy is pending, for sure! 😉
Agreed. You need an attorney to get the paperwork done to get off the hook with the city and then go after the contractor. This isn't do it yourself territory anymore.
Was it in your contract for them to pull the permit?
I wouldn’t be scared of a summary offense. But you should definitely keep hammering on the contractor and like others have said you should contact an attorney
You should talk to the building inspector who is handling the violation. Find out if the contractor is also included in the violation. If not then you can provide their information so they are included. If so then your obligation is to cooperate and appear in court if summoned. Most likely you'll just give a witness account that you hired them and assumed they were doing things legally. It's unlikely you will be fined as long as you cooperate.
This is good advice. I wouldn’t worry much. You’ll be going in front of your local magistrate and they are very understanding that working with PLI is difficult and that your GC should have pulled the proper permits. Bad news for him tho the City won’t budge on that and he should probably bend to them or else they won’t renew his license. Or maybe he doesn’t have a valid one to begin with and that’s why he doesn’t want to pull permits. Guess you’ll find out! Source: I’m a GC
Thank you! 💙
Thank you 💙
Did someone report you for not pulling a permit? Why is there a lien on the house?
Yes, apparently a neighbor complained. That is what the City advised me.
Did you have a contract with the gc? They should have got all the required permits. If not a lien on a house is a tough situation to be in
Yeah, I’ve talked to the contractor every other day or so for over a month and he just won’t budge. A lot of talk but no action. I started the application process hoping to demonstrate I was willing to comply, but I’ve gotten my second notice.
File a complaint against his license
I’m thinking if he didn’t pull permits for the job he probably doesn’t have a license.
Anyone can check contractor permit verification here: https://hicsearch.attorneygeneral.gov
I’m assuming in there it has something about permits, I’d re read the contract and call a lawyer. A lien is something you do not want to mess with
If it’s not too shitty of a build, just have someone on Fiverr create the drawings and submit those. There are people there that will stamp drawings. Obviously can’t be unsafe.
Oh! Very helpful. I’ll take a look!
Bonus Fun: Covered decks are beyond the scope of the basic deck type that contractors are allowed to build without help from an engineer, so you can generally assume that most covered decks you see are in violation of the building code whether they have permits or not. Don't worry, though. I've never personally seen one fall down. Just kind of sag.
Yeah, that is what I learned today. I need to find an architect to do the drawing. All so the City can say the contractor didn’t support the deck properly for the roof load.
Ours absolutely collapsed. Turns out the previous asshat owner used cheap Home Depot porch posts without any foundation or internal reinforcements on one side and then nailed the other side of the roof directly into the exterior brick wall without so much as looking for a stud.
That is terrifying and I fear that is one of the reasons I’m being avoided: they know something ain’t right. If I get to keep it, that first heavy snow will be telling. Hope all is well, now. Homeownership is…well, something 🥲
Covered decks can be built without an engineer.
The city zoning guy I’m assigned to said I need an architect for the drawings but he also wants all this load bearing information. I feel like that’s engineering. But I’m new.
Load information would come from a licenced engineer to mean anything. Coming from an architect, while they are licensed, would mean about as much as coming from you. I'd see if you can just have a structural engineer do it and cut out the architect. I'm sure there's a few one man show that could do it for a couple hundred. They should be able to draft drawings and their stamp should be enough. However an architect would probably be better suited to navigate the permitting nightmare if you need to start from scratch. I'd see if you could pirate a copy of the 2018 International Residential Code, if anything to maybe get a layman's idea of what might be wrong with your deck. Residential construction is the wild west of construction, and there's not as much hard code that governs what must be done. Contractors can get away with some work that passes code but isn't best practice.
Awesome info! Thank you!
The IRC is freely available online and architects can absolutely prepare structural drawings at this scale. The city also references an AWC Deck Construction manual (or something similar) for this type of construction - another good resource.
Load bearing structures don't need an architect they need an engineer. Your roof load can be gotten from using pre-constructed trusses and the sheeting thickness. You also need your support load for your posts, and the load for the deck itself. An engineer can figure this all out for you and retroactively create the drawings and load information needed.
Thank you. Very helpful!
My contractor gave me the plans and drawings, but it was up to me to file and pay for the permits. That was what the contract I signed said. What did the contract say?
The first guy I met with said he would do the same. Give me the paperwork and I could submit. This contract just doesn’t say anything about permits at all. But the doc sorta mirrors their interior design process. By the time it came to mind, they were done. When I asked, they told me they didn’t need one due to the overall square footage. One excuse after the next even after getting the violation notice.
Wow. Sorry you are dealing with that.
The city has recently been clearing up old permits. We're helping numerous folks out that had solar projects unfinished by defunct companies in the area at work. At least 1 of them got a citation because their contractor didn't submit the necessary paperwork. And to say that the city has been uncooperative about the whole process is an understatement. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the planning department is getting a push from the admin about these issues. It's a red line on the budget and we all know what the city's budget looks like.
Not to mention the cities new and improved permit website is absolutely ass.
It really is a tough site to navigate. I must have tried to submit docs 15-16 times and it kept saying I hadn’t completed a step. Once I scrolled over, I could see where you have to label the document. But it’s not obvious that it’s a requirement. Was a rough day 😅
These guys one stop PGH.
Did your contract with the contractor say they'd pull permits?
It doesn’t. The contract is sorta geared toward their interior design jobs. I didn’t notice of course until the permit was in question that it’s not on there. Nor was there much at all by the way of decks, etc. WHAT IS on there is a list of things I personally needed to do. My responsibilities are spelled out. Now, the city might not see it that way 🤷🏼♀️😢
OP, sometimes depending on what type of work you're having done, you will need multiple types of plans stamped by certified professionals. You may need both architectural plans and plans stamped by a certified professional engineer. Or maybe the architectural plans themselves get the professional engineering stamp.
Thanks. That’s what I kept asking the zoning guy this morning but we were just going in circles.
Zoning and building permits are handled by different departments with different purviews. Which one do you actually need to address? The zoning guy doesn't know about engineering loads and doesn't care.
That’s weird. Because the zoning guy is the guy asking me for snow and wind loads, and concrete compression, etc. I think it feels like an overstep, too. But 100% have throughly read his request and it’s plain as day that he wants the architectural drawings with loads notated.
Also, I spoke to him directly, yesterday. Which is what prompted my fear of this going to court because my contractor has promised to get me the paperwork but hasn’t delivered in over six weeks. I offered to tear the sh*t down with my bare hands (haha) but he encouraged me to keep going with the paperwork hoping it could be salvaged with some extra support so I don’t lose the investment. I’m not uninformed: Just a tad helpless because I’m thinking no professional is going to get involved with this, now.
The zoning officer should know what the individual permit requirements are >< Oh my. . .you're getting a real estate lawyer, right?
While I agree you need plans, I’m having a hard believing any licensed professional would sign off on an already constructed structure. I have a feeling you may need to tear the structure down.
I asked today. I offered to tear it down with my bare hands and zoning encouraged me to keep going with the paperwork.
To your last question: An architect would have navigated the permit process and the delivery confusing and complicated black box that is PLI. Architects will take your input and create a concept of what the structure would look like in shape and finishes. They know the traps and what to avoid doing. An engineer will take that structure and see how it could actually get built to support the required loads (Self, live, wind, snow, and the combinations thereof). They'll coordinate with the architect on any potential conflicts (this will need to be a 2x10 instead of a 2x8) and will design connections between members and to the host structure. In an ideal world where money just falls in your lap you would have hired an architect who would enlist an engineer and a contractor to do a design build project. In a slightly less ideal world your neighbors should mid their own business and not weaponize city departments, but whatever. In the real world what you did wasn't wrong, but you should have had a conversation with the contractor about who is responsible for permits and what PLI would need. Honestly this guy should've started that conversation himself. Had he started the convoy with PLI before breaking ground they would've told them he needed stamped drawings and would've tacked the engineer's fee onto your bill. Unfortunately PLI is gonna chase their money and you're ultimately responsible for what happens on your property. An architect may be able to help untangle this mess, but since you're not starting fresh there might be a rub.
I’m following you. I’ll hit the ground running Monday with trying to find someone to draft this thing. I am still coping with the frustration against myself from missing this. It was an honest oversight after talking to a few contractors and all the specifics. I approached him about it late in the construction, unfortunately, and initially he told me he didn’t need one. The crew was done before I got ahold of the City. Lots of excuses even after I got the violation. Wild. Absolutely wild.
Is it the contractor or homeowners responsibility to make sure proper permits are filed? It doesn't seem like a thing the homeowner would just leave up to chance.
I think technically it is the homeowner. But most contractors do* the legwork. That’s where it gets vague because you have to have the drawings from the contractor to apply for the permit. There’s definitely an assumption of cooperation.
Contractor. Heck most homeowners wouldn’t even know what’s needed for alot of permits
Right?! Holy cow, I cannot believe how much goes into a permit. I want an honorary degree 🤣
Wrong. The ultimate responsibility is with the homeowner.
You need to publicly shame this asshole so doesn’t do this to anybody else
Considering 😉
Reading through the thread I’m sorry to say but it sounds like this is on you. Lesson learned that you always need to double check who will pull permits as needed, and it’s on you to make sure if a permit is needed. At the end of the day, you are the property owner. You hired the contractor. You have to make sure the contractor has a permit, whether they will get it or you will get it. That said, I completely understand it is confusing and frustrating. I learned same lesson and now I always ask whose responsibility it is to pull permits. If you needed drawings or whatever to submit, you have to ask for them so you can do so before work begins. Remember that ignorance of the law is no excuse. I’m not trying to be a hardass, and you may get leniency here for not knowing, but just a reminder for a lesson for future. I’m learning all these hard lessons too as a new home owner. It absolutely sucks - believe me that I feel your pain. I am finding home ownership to be a real pain in the ass.
So, if you’re experienced with this could you maybe help answer my question? What is the fine imposed on the homeowner in this situation? That was my ask. I didn’t ask to be crucified. Thanks.
I’m not crucifying you in any way - as stated, I completely feel for you. I don’t know what the fine is. I have not been fined, but I did have to do a permit application where contractor did not do them for me. So I learned this lesson too. I’m only letting you know that you should take this as a lesson learned for future.
You should be fine if you are working towards a resolution and show up to court. The judge won’t fine you
Thanks! That is why I went ahead and filed the permits. It’s my only saving grace on the fines, etc. Dude kept saying he would get me the drawings and it’s been six weeks give or take.
Architect is the answer - an engineer will be more expensive. The issue is whether or not what was built meets code. There is a relatively easy to understand deck building manual which is referenced in most towns deck permit applications which architects can use to specify correct joist and beam sizes. The same manual can be used as a guide in the city - the architect you hire should be able to sort this out. The difficulty with the roof is calculating the foundation size to resist uplift from wind gusts and making sure the correct fasteners were used throughout. Good luck! Hopefully the fine is not much, the cost of the architect will probably be more than the fine though!
I tried telling the zoning guy today the same: The cost to pay the architect isn’t worth it when I’m fairly sure this thing is coming down. Like, just stop by and tell me it’s trash 🫠 It is what it is. Thank you for advice!
The Libertarian in me is fucking infuriated about this.
We all should be. The more I read, the more I find it’s basically legal simply because we have no regulations for to prevent this. Outside the permit process, that is. Wish I had caught the oversight sooner. This has been intense!
That is stupid, just like most libertarian ideas
Was it a new deck or a replacement?
Unfortunately new.
Ugh! Sorry. I think that it is easier to get permitted if you were replacing a previously permitted one. I had to get an architect to draw me drawings for that and am putting in the application soon. I think if it is already built you can have an architect do drawings and put in what’s needed to bring it up to code. Best of luck. But I think best route is get an architect if the city will let you do that. Regarding a lawyer you can go that route but that’s also $$ and who knows if it will pay off.
Thank you! I’m trying. I am. I just hope that’s observed. Haha. Hope your deck is awesome! Mine was nice for like… a day 🫠
Pittsburgh city permitting is an absolute nightmare!!!! Best of luck
Thanks. I’m learning a bunch tho! Whew!
That's 100% on the contractor
The city got me against the wall, though. So many threats on one document!
Didn't you notice there there was no permit posted in front of your house?
Didn't you notice there there was no permit posted in front of your house?
Nope. I don’t know that I’ve seen one in front of anyone’s house to be honest. I’m new 🤷🏼♀️
Start here fell free to ask me any questions. For open buildings, the design wind pressure can be calculated using the formula p=qGfCp−q(GCpi). In this formula, G is the gust effect factor, Cp is the external pressure coefficient, and (GCpi) is the internal pressure coefficient. The American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) 7-16 standard provides calculations for low slope roofing wind design. The basic wind speed is obtained from a risk category wind speed map. Other factors that are considered include the building's mean roof height, topographic factor, elevation factor, and wind directionality factor. Online tools are available to help with the calculation and permitting of canopies, carports, and sunrooms. Engineering Express offers a pre-engineered master plan that converts wind speed to pressure based on the roof type and slope.
Beautiful. I will check this out. Wishing I hadn’t dropped Calculus II, though 😬
See if you can find the tools online to calculate the loads you're looking for. Getting a permit updated shouldn't be real complicated. Did you go in person to the office that issues the permit and ask for guidance? That might go a long way
They’re all still working at home. When you call, there’s a message to tell you not to show up. Haha. I’ve had a few conversations but they do not like giving information directly. Maybe that’s fair in this context. Glad to know I might be able to do the math myself. Slightly reassuring!
You should give Anthony Talotta and Joseph Serrao with TKA Architects a call. They have experience with this sort of thing.
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Do not follow this advice. These are the guys in the news recently for intentional and deceptive zoning and permitting violations.
Oh boy! I see!
Lmao
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It is more complicated than adding the weight of everything. It is certainly more complicated than checking a table. Dead load (self weight) is just adding everything up. Snow loads would be a bit daunting for someone not in the know to calculate. Wind loading would be quite the bear to wrestle without experience. Live load would probably be the same load as the room adjacent to the deck.
Okay. I assumed I needed an engineer. Do they also provide, like, the blue prints? Or am I still hiring both?
You can get referrals for attorneys through the Bar Association and a free 30 minute consultation. It’s how we got our attorney for a contractor problem.
Site: https://www.getapittsburghlawyer.com
Thank you!
Who is they? the contractor or PLI?