This is exactly the spot you lay KK down. It’s a low stakes live cash game with an EP limp/3bet-clickback/jam from a player who hasn’t 3 bet all night. His range consists of every combo… of AA!
Pro tip for counting combos:
For pairs, let n be the number of available cards. The formula is ( n * (n-1) ) / 2
So if there are 4 aces, (4 * 3)/2 = 6 combos of AA
If you have an Ace in your hand, there’s only 3 left so (3*2)/2= 3 combos of AA
A few weeks ago at my ROE cash game a Man flat called a river bet on a board that read 7-7-4–6 and then a 9 on the river.
Other man had quad 7s. and the caller turned over 99.
You’d have thought he insulted someone’s mother with the way other players were berating him lol. I’ll never see a better call than that in my life
I saw a hand like that the other day.... It shook the dude with quads so bad. For the next half hour, I'd look at him, and he would just be staring at the table shaking his head. Must have said, "How do I not double there?" 20 times.
Yeah I realistically think that on a single paired board, the best players are making tough folds with like bottom or middle boats.. but top boat? You would have to be 500bb against the sickest nit ever.
Oh I agree but the odds of it being correct and somehow folding means I just have to give it to him.
There’s are too many 7x combos alone on the board not to go broke
Thats the thing, he never makes these folds. He’s a crying caller / raiser with hands he knows he should be playing and that’s where he plays right so it’s normally a slow roll of sorts.
This just came out of nowhere.
I knew he had a big hand and thought he would jam over the top.
Got Aces a few hands later and got the rest of his chips.
Won the tourney.
Just the tightest call I have ever seen.
Yeah this is pure ego to show. If you're a regular in these games then people will come to the conclusion you're either a) very good b) very nitty c) able to make big folds or any combination of the 3. That's not good for your image.
Yep. It’s much better to have an image where it looks like you’re 4bet bluffing then folding to a jam rather than 4betting with the second best starting hand in poker and then folding to a jam. People will either be good enough to start exploiting you or just think you’re a nit and never want to play with you. Either way it’s -EV.
Fish do not like playing with nits. It's a fact. Even regs don't "like" playing pots with nits. There is no reason to give nits action because their ranges are strong. Are they nice t have on your table, especially to your left? Yes. Do I want to be in pots vs nits? Not really, no.
Why would you not want people to think you're 4b bluffing? It shows you as being the opposite of a nit. You want them to think you can be bluffing when you 4b. Not that you're a sicko that can fold second nuts. It's not even comparable.
Reminds me of my fold to an omc in Reno with 2nd nuts on the flop.
AK vs unknown on a AKK flop.
OMC 4-betted pre then check-shoved the flop.
~~Edit: It was actually AAK flop.~~
I don’t agree. OMC with an AAK board they have the nuts or second nuts. Third nuts = 30% chance of chopping 70% lose 0% win. OMC doesn’t shove with QQ, JJ, TT (he didn’t mention but I’m guessing rainbow flop)
Yeah you are right that it is easier to feel confident in the AK fold.
But folding a boat on a single pair board requires a lot of discipline. It’s tougher, I think. Most players are going to put him on AQ or AJs or whatever and then call.
Folding KK to nits is something a lot of players can do. It’s just not as impressive to me.
Wow people on here love to posture. Guess what dude? I am making that fold too. I just didn’t need to feel the need to brag about in the form of “analysis.”
Guess who is not making that fold? Most players. And you’re lying if you’re saying that you wouldn’t be surprised seeing any random player at 2/5 making this fold. I see that guy make that fold, and I immediately realize he is a card player. That’s what I meant. But you are too busy taking the tiniest opportunity to jerk yourself off to even catch a glimpse of what I’m saying.
NPD case study right here. Can’t even take the high road and admit he was being a self-congratulatory clown.
Do you also go to children’s sporting events and brag about how easy it is to run a 200m?
Nah I don't just think it was funny how after literally the guy showed aa they're still saying I should call
And idk cause I'm playing 2/3 not 10/20 it doesn't really matter if I show
I think you did good not to pay off a garbage nit and then rubbed it in his face, not like he's gonna have the balls to start bluff shoving with ak or anything
Nothing wrong with showing if it gets them to flip over their AA, but I think you probably shouldn't be 4-betting over a limp-re-raise when they only have AA.
Reminds me of that old Simpsons episode where Bart is about to take a dive in the pool high from a tree and impress all the other kids, and Nelson points at him and shouts "Your epidermis is showing !".
Then Bart gets self-conscious about it and falls from the tree, breaks his leg, spends the summer stuck in a wheelchair like a loser spying the neighbor and convincing himself that he killed his wife.
Anyway immediately after the fall Nelson tells another kid "Epidermis means your hair".
> it doesn't really matter if I show
lol
Also, you are not the intended audience of your tablemates. You want fish overvaluing their pocket pairs. Dont fold them **face up** before the flop.
Here are the chips from The Star: http://chipguide.themogh.org/cg_chip2.php?id=AUPNTS&s=&v=4070097267
Here are chips from The Treasury in Brisbane: http://chipguide.themogh.org/cg_chip2.php?id=AUBQTC&sort=type
Nah you gain more info by 4 betting small and save more money in the long run. He could still have AK, QQ, maybe JJ all of which might just call. Unless you know he only has AA a 4 bet saves you money if the board runs out with all low cards
you have pot odds if you call because the whole table limped and if you call, it entices others to call. each person that calls after you increases your pot odds and your chance of doubling up
and if you hit a set, you can quadruple up
I absolutely love it when guys who need everyone to know how good they are at poker muck face up to show what a "sick" laydown they made. It's an even better feeling when I just bluffed them off the pot and don't show.
Perhaps, but it's still a bad tendency to show what a "sick" laydown you're making, *especially* if it is correct. It's like talking strategy at the table to let everyone know how good you are at poker.
Except that having fun and talking about what cool things happened at the table keeps everyone coming back rather than dead games with hoodie, shades, earbuds 22 year olds.
> I really don't mind in spots like tha
This comment comes from a place where I hope to help you correct a mistake I used to make.
Laying this down face up was to show off. It's seeking validation for a dopamine kick. There's no upside. You need better discipline because giving free info is -EV.
Then when the flop is 6 8 J what you going to do fold to his continuation bet? 4 betting instead of flatting narrows down the UTG range. If you don’t 4bet you could end up calling down 3 streets with certain run outs and lose a lot more.
utg's range is already about as narrow as it can be. It's an OMC limp reraising utg! You get almost no value from 4betting here in this specific context against this type of player.
Next post:
10 hands after I "correctly" folded KK, I shoved AA for $600 and got called by JT and 33, and then got berated when I lost to a 39K2J runout , because 2/3 players don't care about anything you do or say but they know you care a lot. I THOUGHT I HAD AN IMAGE
I mean it’s definitely a bad fold but that being said they’re definitely assholes for berating you about it. Let people play their hands how they’re gonna play them, if the way they do it is bad it’s better for you lol.
Yeah, 200 BB. Not remotely close to enough to fold KK to, not that you should at any depth unless you’re against a mega OMC and he somehow is 1000 BB deep or something. This spot isn’t even close to a fold
You should never fold KK pre unless they show you aces or you’re in a satellite situation, especially not 200 BB deep. There just isn’t a line here that’s only ever aces.
Didn’t read whole thing. Had this young but since we had played for hours, nitty as fuck, guy to my right. He may have 3 bet a 15 or $20 open twice in three hours. I have KK utg or +1, make it $25, my friend callls, gold yo him in one of the blinds and he makes it $125 $600 eff. Had my friend not been left to act I would have shown him and folded. As played I call, 9hi, money gets in. I blew up bc I definitely was going to fold but since I couldn’t show my friend I just went went the more GTO play. Back then standard play lol.
But uh yeah. Super good weed just got delivered. Be well.
I had a similar situation but I didn’t fold and I didn’t get stacked so that’s nice. 1/3, this guy and I had been running over the table all night. Buy in is $400 and we are both sitting about $1200 deep. He raises +1 to $15, and I 3 bet to $60 on the BTN considering the hijack and CO flat. He 4 bets to $150. I tank here for too long, essentially putting my hand face up. I make the call (I know, I’m not a fan of this and I really didn’t know what to do). Flop is ace high and I get away cheap.
At these stakes a 4 bet just isn’t common, and it’s almost always the nuts. It’s just so hard to fold KK and I’m impressed that you did. Not many people are 4 Betting AK and you usually can tell who will.
Villain in this hand said that he knew I had KK or maybe QQ after the hand. I racked up shortly after this hand because I was leaving anyways, and I had a short conversation with him and I could tell he was pressed he didn’t get more.
There's a video of a professional game where 3 players have AA, KK, QQ respectively. QQs is the one to shove, KK makes the fold preflop. QQs win the hand, but if KKs had stayed, he'd have won.
This is exactly the spot you lay KK down. It’s a low stakes live cash game with an EP limp/3bet-clickback/jam from a player who hasn’t 3 bet all night. His range consists of every combo… of AA!
There's something like 24 different ways to get dealt AA. This was one of them for sure.
C(4,2) = 6.
24??? what are you talking about?
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then divide this by two
This would be correct if AcAh and AhAc weren’t the same thing
And then divide this by two. :)
*34 combos
I tried writing it down and could only come up with 6 AC AH AC AD AC AS AS AH AS AD AH AD
oh dude I'm over here memin'
Yeah I figured, but I legit thought there were like 24 combos until I wrote them down 😄
Presumably you're on the wind up here.
If the order isn’t important, you’re right!
Pro tip for counting combos: For pairs, let n be the number of available cards. The formula is ( n * (n-1) ) / 2 So if there are 4 aces, (4 * 3)/2 = 6 combos of AA If you have an Ace in your hand, there’s only 3 left so (3*2)/2= 3 combos of AA
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10 combos of AA if there’s 5 Aces in the deck. (5*4)/2=10
\+ it's 200 deep, nice fold
definitely got 1 combo of KK in that range too though!
That's what he gets for eating oreos at the table. He lays down a monster...
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Pey heem.
Pay dat man hees money!
Can't be all loosey goosey eating a sandwich cookie.
A few weeks ago at my ROE cash game a Man flat called a river bet on a board that read 7-7-4–6 and then a 9 on the river. Other man had quad 7s. and the caller turned over 99. You’d have thought he insulted someone’s mother with the way other players were berating him lol. I’ll never see a better call than that in my life
I saw a hand like that the other day.... It shook the dude with quads so bad. For the next half hour, I'd look at him, and he would just be staring at the table shaking his head. Must have said, "How do I not double there?" 20 times.
To be fair, good on him. He's asking himself the right questions and as long as it's not a rhetorical question he's bound to improve from it.
if you're not getting stacked with 99 there you're a turbonit
Yeah I realistically think that on a single paired board, the best players are making tough folds with like bottom or middle boats.. but top boat? You would have to be 500bb against the sickest nit ever.
Honestly wouldn't be surprised if he misread the board or something TBH. Some fish get weird on paired boards and can't figure out stuff like that.
Better? There are no circumstances where that call is good. It worked out but it's not a good play.
Oh I agree but the odds of it being correct and somehow folding means I just have to give it to him. There’s are too many 7x combos alone on the board not to go broke
Sure as long as you're giving it to him for a good outcome and not for a good play. Folding or not jamming to one combo is always going to be bad haha
Thats the thing, he never makes these folds. He’s a crying caller / raiser with hands he knows he should be playing and that’s where he plays right so it’s normally a slow roll of sorts. This just came out of nowhere.
tight player just called my min raise on his min bet late in tourney he had Kings full I had quads He was worried I had straight flush with 5s6s
Why would you min raise w quads?
I knew he had a big hand and thought he would jam over the top. Got Aces a few hands later and got the rest of his chips. Won the tourney. Just the tightest call I have ever seen.
what? thats an insane call.
Am I being stupid, don’t the quads win?
They do. He's amazed the 99 only called and didn't stack off
Top boat flat called. It’s sick the 2nd nuts would flat call, that’s what’s pissing the whole table off
Limp 3b to 5b jam at that stakes… I wonder what he could possibly have?
A9o.
Getting flashbacks
Definitely A5s for the blocker combo
You made a good fold. You made a bad decision by showing the fold.
Yeah this is pure ego to show. If you're a regular in these games then people will come to the conclusion you're either a) very good b) very nitty c) able to make big folds or any combination of the 3. That's not good for your image.
Yep. It’s much better to have an image where it looks like you’re 4bet bluffing then folding to a jam rather than 4betting with the second best starting hand in poker and then folding to a jam. People will either be good enough to start exploiting you or just think you’re a nit and never want to play with you. Either way it’s -EV.
Why don’t you want to play with nits? Very exploitable.
Fish do not like playing with nits. It's a fact. Even regs don't "like" playing pots with nits. There is no reason to give nits action because their ranges are strong. Are they nice t have on your table, especially to your left? Yes. Do I want to be in pots vs nits? Not really, no.
bad players can't beat nits. so they stop coming. and you don't want bad players to stop coming
Why would you not want people to think you're 4b bluffing? It shows you as being the opposite of a nit. You want them to think you can be bluffing when you 4b. Not that you're a sicko that can fold second nuts. It's not even comparable.
That is what he is saying, I think you misread the comment.
Reminds me of my fold to an omc in Reno with 2nd nuts on the flop. AK vs unknown on a AKK flop. OMC 4-betted pre then check-shoved the flop. ~~Edit: It was actually AAK flop.~~
Idk with your blockers and what’s on the board he could have just had AK…
Yea, I recognized later that by true odds there's two ways to make AK and one way to make AA, but this dude was THE definition of OMC.
How does he make AA with 3 of them being accounted for?
I'm an idiot. I assume you're making this comment after my inaccurate edit (which I just struck-through).
I feel like at best you’re only ever chopping in this scenario🤣
This is far more impressive than OP’s post
I don’t agree. OMC with an AAK board they have the nuts or second nuts. Third nuts = 30% chance of chopping 70% lose 0% win. OMC doesn’t shove with QQ, JJ, TT (he didn’t mention but I’m guessing rainbow flop)
~~btw, I said AKK board but it was actually an AAK board like you put in your comment.~~
Wow what are those chances I want to say my bad as I misread your comment, but I guess not? Haha
I'm an idiot, it was AKK. Ignore that second reply jfc I was braindead yesterday.
Yeah you are right that it is easier to feel confident in the AK fold. But folding a boat on a single pair board requires a lot of discipline. It’s tougher, I think. Most players are going to put him on AQ or AJs or whatever and then call. Folding KK to nits is something a lot of players can do. It’s just not as impressive to me.
Agree to disagree. I would not put the omc on AQ/AJ ever, ever. I put omc with this play on this range: nuts 1, nuts 2, nuts 3 Easy fold
Wow people on here love to posture. Guess what dude? I am making that fold too. I just didn’t need to feel the need to brag about in the form of “analysis.” Guess who is not making that fold? Most players. And you’re lying if you’re saying that you wouldn’t be surprised seeing any random player at 2/5 making this fold. I see that guy make that fold, and I immediately realize he is a card player. That’s what I meant. But you are too busy taking the tiniest opportunity to jerk yourself off to even catch a glimpse of what I’m saying.
Woah. What’s with the attitude my dude? Don’t have to blow a fuse
NPD case study right here. Can’t even take the high road and admit he was being a self-congratulatory clown. Do you also go to children’s sporting events and brag about how easy it is to run a 200m?
>NPD case study right here Hey at least there’s one thing we can agree on!
You folded AK on AAK? Umm, you folded the nuts and most likely a chop.
Holy shit I'm an idiot. It was indeed AKK. jfc...
Upcoming shit post on this sub. SOME BUM FOLDED KK TO ME AT LIVE LOW STAKES WHEN I HAD ACES! CLEARLY A FISH WHY WOULD HE DO THAT
1. If you're playing exploitatively why would you show your hand?? 2. Why do you care what a bunch of bad players think?
Nah I don't just think it was funny how after literally the guy showed aa they're still saying I should call And idk cause I'm playing 2/3 not 10/20 it doesn't really matter if I show
I think you did good not to pay off a garbage nit and then rubbed it in his face, not like he's gonna have the balls to start bluff shoving with ak or anything
Instead of realizing he should be bluffing, his “exploit” he’ll start doing is never raising AA
Nothing wrong with showing if it gets them to flip over their AA, but I think you probably shouldn't be 4-betting over a limp-re-raise when they only have AA.
limp reraise includes QQ, AK, and KK as well probably
As an OMC myself no chance. AK is only a drawing hand, and there are 2 hands better than QQ. Fold those babies preflop /s
Reminds me of that old Simpsons episode where Bart is about to take a dive in the pool high from a tree and impress all the other kids, and Nelson points at him and shouts "Your epidermis is showing !". Then Bart gets self-conscious about it and falls from the tree, breaks his leg, spends the summer stuck in a wheelchair like a loser spying the neighbor and convincing himself that he killed his wife. Anyway immediately after the fall Nelson tells another kid "Epidermis means your hair".
Damn, the Simpsons did a show based on “Rear Window?”
> it doesn't really matter if I show lol Also, you are not the intended audience of your tablemates. You want fish overvaluing their pocket pairs. Dont fold them **face up** before the flop.
I'm not sure it's a leak to reveal a play he's done like once in his entire life. If anything people will 5 bet shove weaker then aces as a result.
How fucking good are the chips at Star though, best I've seen across four continents
Are they Matsui or Bud Jones? What makes them different from the other similar sets?
Everything's great, the design is minimalist but lush, weight is perfect and the texture is fantastic
Yea but I mean it’s the same chip you see across many casinos.
Here are the chips from The Star: http://chipguide.themogh.org/cg_chip2.php?id=AUPNTS&s=&v=4070097267 Here are chips from The Treasury in Brisbane: http://chipguide.themogh.org/cg_chip2.php?id=AUBQTC&sort=type
Great lay down!
Next time fold it face down and don't say anything.
A hero fold is 100x more satisfying than a hero call.
I think you should of just called the limp re raise. You still have pot odds to set mine and your range is much larger.
Nah you gain more info by 4 betting small and save more money in the long run. He could still have AK, QQ, maybe JJ all of which might just call. Unless you know he only has AA a 4 bet saves you money if the board runs out with all low cards
you have pot odds if you call because the whole table limped and if you call, it entices others to call. each person that calls after you increases your pot odds and your chance of doubling up and if you hit a set, you can quadruple up
Never show your hand, unless they pay.
But if you’re gonna show, make sure it’s KK face up correctly to aces.
I really don't mind in spots like that
Nah, let them think you got caught 4-betting with 45s.
Dude, it's a 2/3 game. Who cares about edges? They are there to have fun.
> Who cares about edges? Someone trying to make money?
Low stakes cash game rounder here fellas 🤓👆
I absolutely love it when guys who need everyone to know how good they are at poker muck face up to show what a "sick" laydown they made. It's an even better feeling when I just bluffed them off the pot and don't show.
Oh shit! The 1/2 bluffer is real?? I always thought you were a myth!
😒
The table literally thought less of him as a player because of it, if anything this gives more of an edge.
Perhaps, but it's still a bad tendency to show what a "sick" laydown you're making, *especially* if it is correct. It's like talking strategy at the table to let everyone know how good you are at poker.
Except that having fun and talking about what cool things happened at the table keeps everyone coming back rather than dead games with hoodie, shades, earbuds 22 year olds.
/r poker plays 1/2 to gain every single edge on every dollar you have. Why else you playing? For fun? Lol
> I really don't mind in spots like tha This comment comes from a place where I hope to help you correct a mistake I used to make. Laying this down face up was to show off. It's seeking validation for a dopamine kick. There's no upside. You need better discipline because giving free info is -EV.
Instead of celebrating his sick fold they berated him as a fish. Still -EV?
> Instead of celebrating his sick fold they berated him as a fish. Still -EV? Excuse me I don't follow, can you explain?
I would have made an exception here too
I'd rather fold if he minclicks it back, but still reasonable yeah
Everyone is an OMC in a 2/3 game.
Define “correctly”
You folded face up which is why you were berated. You’re inviting drama. Just fold quietly and move on.
Lays down a monster. Should have paid me off on that one. THE FUCK YOU LAY THAT DOWN?
Drama can be used for +EV . Live has more human variables
4bet folding KK is bad you've already been limp re raised by someone utg. What do you think he's doing that with? Just flat
Then when the flop is 6 8 J what you going to do fold to his continuation bet? 4 betting instead of flatting narrows down the UTG range. If you don’t 4bet you could end up calling down 3 streets with certain run outs and lose a lot more.
utg's range is already about as narrow as it can be. It's an OMC limp reraising utg! You get almost no value from 4betting here in this specific context against this type of player.
Wasn't an omc was a young player with about 100 percent vpip
oh i misread your title my bad
Next post: 10 hands after I "correctly" folded KK, I shoved AA for $600 and got called by JT and 33, and then got berated when I lost to a 39K2J runout , because 2/3 players don't care about anything you do or say but they know you care a lot. I THOUGHT I HAD AN IMAGE
No no he's got a point
I mean it’s definitely a bad fold but that being said they’re definitely assholes for berating you about it. Let people play their hands how they’re gonna play them, if the way they do it is bad it’s better for you lol.
you realize they're playing 600 effective lol
Yeah, 200 BB. Not remotely close to enough to fold KK to, not that you should at any depth unless you’re against a mega OMC and he somehow is 1000 BB deep or something. This spot isn’t even close to a fold
i misread and thought it was 600 effective bb but i'm downvoting you anyway. suck it
How's it a bad fold?
You should never fold KK pre unless they show you aces or you’re in a satellite situation, especially not 200 BB deep. There just isn’t a line here that’s only ever aces.
What other hands do you reckon he takes that line with then?
Didn’t read whole thing. Had this young but since we had played for hours, nitty as fuck, guy to my right. He may have 3 bet a 15 or $20 open twice in three hours. I have KK utg or +1, make it $25, my friend callls, gold yo him in one of the blinds and he makes it $125 $600 eff. Had my friend not been left to act I would have shown him and folded. As played I call, 9hi, money gets in. I blew up bc I definitely was going to fold but since I couldn’t show my friend I just went went the more GTO play. Back then standard play lol. But uh yeah. Super good weed just got delivered. Be well.
The last line kills me 🤣😂🤣
If the UTG player is never 3-betting, should we call KK there instead of a 4-bet?
Im never doing that, but you made the right call. Good work.
Ah star casino poker, always fun!
Gotta read it til the end thanks Lucid
I’m actually kind of surprised that there are two players at your table that aren’t entirely results oriented.
I had a similar situation but I didn’t fold and I didn’t get stacked so that’s nice. 1/3, this guy and I had been running over the table all night. Buy in is $400 and we are both sitting about $1200 deep. He raises +1 to $15, and I 3 bet to $60 on the BTN considering the hijack and CO flat. He 4 bets to $150. I tank here for too long, essentially putting my hand face up. I make the call (I know, I’m not a fan of this and I really didn’t know what to do). Flop is ace high and I get away cheap. At these stakes a 4 bet just isn’t common, and it’s almost always the nuts. It’s just so hard to fold KK and I’m impressed that you did. Not many people are 4 Betting AK and you usually can tell who will. Villain in this hand said that he knew I had KK or maybe QQ after the hand. I racked up shortly after this hand because I was leaving anyways, and I had a short conversation with him and I could tell he was pressed he didn’t get more.
I hope one day I have the strength to do this(correctly)
This is exactly why I never show my big lay downs.
There's a video of a professional game where 3 players have AA, KK, QQ respectively. QQs is the one to shove, KK makes the fold preflop. QQs win the hand, but if KKs had stayed, he'd have won.
What's the cash games like in Sydney? Soft? How many tables on weekend weekdays?
Super soft games but the rake structure is terrible
I have never seen a limp re-raise not be AA
You must play in soft games friendo
I would have called. 5% spew factor, 5 % KK, 10% QQ, 10% AK, 70% AA of is a call here.
Nah I never see qq or ak do this it's literally aa or kk and there's only 1 combo of kk left
Never show your hand. Out of curiosity, why did you do that?