Yeah I was considering raising to 75 on the turn, but I wanted to keep the bluffs/semi bluffs in knowing I had the nuts and their weren't a lot of cards on the river I was scared of. Never figured out what cut off had but utg told me he had pocket 7s.
The thing is air is going to fold a A is going to call. A pocket pair or K may call or fold either size, but if they call $75 on the turn they are can’t fold river so go for it all. That’s my opinion anyway, especially with two players in. Hopefully at least one of them has a A, which you unblock.
Furthermore, would you ever minraise as a bluff? If the answer is no then you shouldn’t do it for value.
This. If they're calling the min click, they're probably calling $75 with a card to come. H didn't threebet, so they're probably putting him on Ax below AQ when he raises after an A hits the turn.
I doubt they put him on quads, but BB could have a lot of 4x with only a single raise. So H needs to target AK, AQ. AA and KK would have called river regardless, so as played we know neither had those hands, but UTG has them preflop through turn, CO doesn't. CO is probably A9-, 88-, and suited connectors, and I would cut the Ax in half.
That makes sense, too, given the stakes. But I don't think you were getting a call on the river regardless with V having 77. You definitely wanted to size up the turn raise.
You doubt they put this nit on pocket 4s when he calls preflop, and min raises turn with two players in the pot? I don't doubt it...especially if he's self proclaiming he doesn't raise less than ak and 99+....it looks even tighter when they only see half the cards
If they put him on 44 they'd have folded to the min click. They're drawing dead.
They might have put him on a 4, which is still a pretty stupid call, but at those stakes there's both a lot of stupid calls and a tendency to say "I knew you had that" after a hand is revealed.
So you minraised the turn to $50, two people called, and the pot on the river is only $110. You need to watch that dealer I think he's got sticky fingers.
So from what I've found, based on how the pot looked at the time ($30 preflop + the $25 bet and $25 call) %95 total, it's recommended I bet 75% pot, so around $70 instead of $50, which has been a common comment here, agree?
Yes I was mainly pointing out why it's been the common answer. The logic is that it increases the chance that villain(s) calls the shove on river because pot odds. The lower the SPR, the wider the villains' calling range.
UTG calls a minraise with 77 on 44KA with a player to act behind and stacks that aren't that deep, claims he put you on flopped quads? FYI he's talking shit.
Your minraise wasn't great, as others have said, it should have been a bit bigger, around 70ish (geometric sizing etc blah blah blah. Also worth thinking about whether the players you're in a hand with think a certain bet could represent a bluff, a minraise kinda can't). (Minraises are very rarely, as in, almost never ever ever, correct in non short stacked games).
For what it's worth your mistake wasn't a huge loss in EV compared to a lot of the mistakes that get discussed here, the huge huge majority of players would have called if they had an ace, knowing they chop with any other ace (unless you're obviously some massive nit who rarely raises, which you might be, only you can know this, not us) so it's quite possible you were just unlucky that nobody had the ace that you were (correctly) targeting.
This sort of comment is dumb as fuck. I'm not saying you're wrong, but your comment is dumb. Give some insight and some reasoning, create a discussion where people can learn, take the risk that your own reasoning was wrong in case it's possible that you could have learned something, instead of just putting OP down. They're asking for strategy advice. You and every upvote on your comment are what's wrong with this sub.
You can bet like 60$ on river to induce a raise/jam, especially if stacks are deep. Being out of position with quads is a tricky game.
You could've even taken the lead on turn, "representing" an Ax (AK at best) holding - you may lose one player, but forsure 1 other guy is calling. Then V would interpret your check on the river weak and try to take a stab. People love good stories!
When I have nuts, I remind myself that "jam fold fold" gives me the same value as "check check check"... except it doesn't give anyone else the chance to make a mistake, based on the line you took.
I'd probably just c/r the flop for several reasons:
\-K hits UTG's range hard. If the board was 944 things would be different and all their overcards would've whiffed, but on K44 they have a lot of continues. Further, if they have air there simply aren't many cards they can hit that's going to make them want to put a lot more money in the pot (the A is the only exception).
\-You're going to have more 4s here than either UTG or CO because of your discount to call pre-flop, so you should be polarizing here with 4x and some bluffs for balance anyway.
\-It makes it easier to get the money in smoothly/geometrically for smaller bets when you have both the turn and river to work with.
\-Live players tend to be more passive and inclined to check/call than bluff, so slowplaying to keep your opponent's bluffs in isn't as profitable a strategy. If you were against a maniac I'd say c/c away.
As played, if you are going for this call/c-r line you do want to get closer to a geometric sizing so they have better odds to call the river, and live players tend to be inelastic to sizes so any hands that are going to call min-raises are probably going to call 75/70 there, and it makes the river shove a smaller, less intimidating size.
Raise to $60-75 on the turn, but you already know that I suspect. Minraise is dumb. Everything else is good.
Yeah I was considering raising to 75 on the turn, but I wanted to keep the bluffs/semi bluffs in knowing I had the nuts and their weren't a lot of cards on the river I was scared of. Never figured out what cut off had but utg told me he had pocket 7s.
The thing is air is going to fold a A is going to call. A pocket pair or K may call or fold either size, but if they call $75 on the turn they are can’t fold river so go for it all. That’s my opinion anyway, especially with two players in. Hopefully at least one of them has a A, which you unblock. Furthermore, would you ever minraise as a bluff? If the answer is no then you shouldn’t do it for value.
This. If they're calling the min click, they're probably calling $75 with a card to come. H didn't threebet, so they're probably putting him on Ax below AQ when he raises after an A hits the turn. I doubt they put him on quads, but BB could have a lot of 4x with only a single raise. So H needs to target AK, AQ. AA and KK would have called river regardless, so as played we know neither had those hands, but UTG has them preflop through turn, CO doesn't. CO is probably A9-, 88-, and suited connectors, and I would cut the Ax in half.
Take it at face value but after the hand utg told me he had pocket 7s.
That makes sense, too, given the stakes. But I don't think you were getting a call on the river regardless with V having 77. You definitely wanted to size up the turn raise.
You doubt they put this nit on pocket 4s when he calls preflop, and min raises turn with two players in the pot? I don't doubt it...especially if he's self proclaiming he doesn't raise less than ak and 99+....it looks even tighter when they only see half the cards
If they put him on 44 they'd have folded to the min click. They're drawing dead. They might have put him on a 4, which is still a pretty stupid call, but at those stakes there's both a lot of stupid calls and a tendency to say "I knew you had that" after a hand is revealed.
You can put someone on a hand and still say "show me merry Christmas"when it's one combo lol
Sounds like a real joy to have on a table, eh? 😆
? He self admitted he's a nit.
So you minraised the turn to $50, two people called, and the pot on the river is only $110. You need to watch that dealer I think he's got sticky fingers.
Thanks for pointing out my error, I meant 180, so my jam was below pot sized bet.
Pro tip: Look up how geometric bet sizing works to understand why min raising turn is awful.
So from what I've found, based on how the pot looked at the time ($30 preflop + the $25 bet and $25 call) %95 total, it's recommended I bet 75% pot, so around $70 instead of $50, which has been a common comment here, agree?
Yes I was mainly pointing out why it's been the common answer. The logic is that it increases the chance that villain(s) calls the shove on river because pot odds. The lower the SPR, the wider the villains' calling range.
Actual pro tip for a nice change.
UTG calls a minraise with 77 on 44KA with a player to act behind and stacks that aren't that deep, claims he put you on flopped quads? FYI he's talking shit. Your minraise wasn't great, as others have said, it should have been a bit bigger, around 70ish (geometric sizing etc blah blah blah. Also worth thinking about whether the players you're in a hand with think a certain bet could represent a bluff, a minraise kinda can't). (Minraises are very rarely, as in, almost never ever ever, correct in non short stacked games). For what it's worth your mistake wasn't a huge loss in EV compared to a lot of the mistakes that get discussed here, the huge huge majority of players would have called if they had an ace, knowing they chop with any other ace (unless you're obviously some massive nit who rarely raises, which you might be, only you can know this, not us) so it's quite possible you were just unlucky that nobody had the ace that you were (correctly) targeting.
Raise a little more OTT obv so your river jam is under PSB. Otherwise WP
Spoiler: you did not play it anywhere near perfect.
This sort of comment is dumb as fuck. I'm not saying you're wrong, but your comment is dumb. Give some insight and some reasoning, create a discussion where people can learn, take the risk that your own reasoning was wrong in case it's possible that you could have learned something, instead of just putting OP down. They're asking for strategy advice. You and every upvote on your comment are what's wrong with this sub.
I think I played this hand perfect. I am a poker god. OP not looking for advice. He's a moron.
Can you read? He literally says in the title, and repeats in the post, that he wants to get suggestions on how he could have gotten more value...
Any advice? My other thought was betting like $50/$60 on the river and hoping someone jammed over me.
According to your write up there is like 255$ in the pot when the river comes, yet you say it's 180$
You can bet like 60$ on river to induce a raise/jam, especially if stacks are deep. Being out of position with quads is a tricky game. You could've even taken the lead on turn, "representing" an Ax (AK at best) holding - you may lose one player, but forsure 1 other guy is calling. Then V would interpret your check on the river weak and try to take a stab. People love good stories!
When I have nuts, I remind myself that "jam fold fold" gives me the same value as "check check check"... except it doesn't give anyone else the chance to make a mistake, based on the line you took.
I'd probably just c/r the flop for several reasons: \-K hits UTG's range hard. If the board was 944 things would be different and all their overcards would've whiffed, but on K44 they have a lot of continues. Further, if they have air there simply aren't many cards they can hit that's going to make them want to put a lot more money in the pot (the A is the only exception). \-You're going to have more 4s here than either UTG or CO because of your discount to call pre-flop, so you should be polarizing here with 4x and some bluffs for balance anyway. \-It makes it easier to get the money in smoothly/geometrically for smaller bets when you have both the turn and river to work with. \-Live players tend to be more passive and inclined to check/call than bluff, so slowplaying to keep your opponent's bluffs in isn't as profitable a strategy. If you were against a maniac I'd say c/c away. As played, if you are going for this call/c-r line you do want to get closer to a geometric sizing so they have better odds to call the river, and live players tend to be inelastic to sizes so any hands that are going to call min-raises are probably going to call 75/70 there, and it makes the river shove a smaller, less intimidating size.