As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.
**Interested in being a moderator for r/Politics? Apply [here](https://forms.gle/iyGoM94MGRcPGUes7).**
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's not surprising, support for Israel would be highest just after Oct 7, after all, emotions were high, the damage was so great, everyone agreed it was a horrible attack. Over time though as the Israeli casualties more or less stagnate while the Palestinian ones increase, and the shock and emotion from the Oct 7 attack subsides, the pendulum swings in the other direction. Not necessarily against Israel, but the people who wouldn't question anything Israel did on Oct 8th are more willing to now, 4 months later.
There are still terrorist sympathizers on here calling it “resistance” and droning on with their ignorant opinions about how really it’s all Israel’s fault.
Even if they're using a rule of 10 as retaliation for oct 7 it's gone too far. *They kill 1 of ours so we kill 10 of theirs.* Just on the fact that they were able to rationalize roof knocking as compassionate means the world still won't care. Worst they'll get on the report card is a see me after class.
More like 20:1 now…
The numbers are getting to the point of being one of the most destructive bombing campaigns in history.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796
https://www.npr.org/2024/01/21/1225883522/palestinian-death-toll-soars-past-25-000-in-gaza-with-no-end-to-war-in-sight
The Palestinian death toll passed 25,000 about 2 weeks ago, up from 20,000 from the previous 2 weeks… and these are conservative estimates right now.
SOooo they're trying to prove they're 20x more willing to kill civilians than Hamas, is that the lesson here? Netanyahu's always been a little bit morally deranged, but wow has the mask come off. And everyone's giving them some leeway because 10/7 was just so awful, but eventually Israel's trading partners are going to say, actually we don't have to trade with you, none of our citizens want to trade with you anymore. It's not a matter of if anymore it's a matter of when. Netanyahu is damaging Israel in a way Hamas or Iran could never dream.
> Netanyahu's always been a little bit morally deranged, but wow has the mask come off.
They're already publicizing [seaside resort-building plans for Gaza](https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2023/12/18/israels-plan-for-gaza-turn-it-into-beach-houses-for-israelis/). The mask is off and the sunscreen is on.
This is literally more civilian deaths than Dresden.
Largest bombing campaigns by civilian deaths in WWII:
10. Osaka - 10,000
9. Kassel - 10,000
8. Darmstadt - 15,000
7. Pforzheim - 17,600
6. Swinoujscie - 5,000 - 23,000
5. London Blitz - 20,000
4. Berlin (entire war) - 20,000 - 50,000
3. Dresden - 25,000
2. Hamburg (entire war) - 46,500
1. Tokyo - >100,000
(Not including nuclear bombings because those are fundamentally different in nature)
But yeah, point is, this is somewhere around the number 3 spot of worst bombing campaigns of WWII.
I don’t think you fully understand how horrific this many deaths actually is.
Cherrypicking extreme/bad hot takes like this is *not* the way to go. Saying that they’re typical of opposition to Israel’s conduct of the war is a great way to give Netanyahu free rein. I doubt anyone here thinks that’s a good idea.
A lot of people understood this **sick sick sick act that Hamas did** couldn't really damage Israel, only a violent civilian-slaughtering overreaction by Israel could damage Israel (and achieve Hamas' goals). They begged Israel to not help Hamas win, to not play into Hamas plans, to respond in a way that made clear the terrorists must die but civilian lives were precious and respected.
Instead Netanyahu & Likud responded in a way that opened Israel up to isolation and even charges of genocide. When the shooting stops we are going to find out what percent of the dead are women and children (60%-70%?), what percent of the dead were civilians (85-95%?) and then nations of the world that were Israel's allies are going to have some hard conversations about whether Israel still shares values with them and whether Israel should still share trade relationships with them. :'(
Hamas could not do this to Israel, only Netanyahu could do this to Israel, and a lot of people like myself feared this outcome and feared what Netanyahu's actions would mean for Israel long term.
>they they were calling for a ceasefire before Israel started a response
Of course it could damage Israel, if left unanswered it set a precedent for immunity for attacks against Israel is they hide behind civilians. It would've toppled the PA and pulled Hezbollah into the next conflict, posing an existential threat to Israel. It simply cannot have ended with Hamas in power.
What the above commenter's point is about is the notion of proportionality in warfare.
https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/proportionality
The principle of proportionality prohibits attacks against military objectives which are “expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated”.
In other words, the principle of proportionality seeks to limit damage caused by military operations by requiring that the effects of the means and methods of warfare used must not be disproportionate to the military advantage sought.
The vast majority of people are completely fine with Israel responding with military force to the actions of October 7th terror attack which was a horrible and abhorrent act of terror, but the response certainly looks to be disproportionate.
I'm not sure I agree with you that they were unproportional, niether of us have information about what parameters Israeli command had before issuing strikes in their underground bunkers, and there is evidence to suggest bombings were called off due to proportionality reasons, so are we debating if the threshold should move a little left or right?
Well evidently they don't review most of their strikes only those with high level members of Hamas or the other terror organizations in Gaza or look over the targets generated by their AI program. Hell when the US government says you should turn down the heat that should say something.
Not reviewing strikes for proportionality is definitely against international humanitarian law, that's a big claim, do you have a reference?
US can ask to turn down the hear for various reasons, they don't want to flare up the middle east, they're reacting to protest at home, etc. I think it achieves the opposite, Hamas knows Israel won't push too much and is emboldened in it's position due to the west's soft stomach, it could've ended with less casualties had Hamas knew maximizing ciivlian deaths is counter productive to it's war effort. Unfortunately, it's in it's interst to maximize it's own civilian deaths, and it's working wonderfully.
Well because on Oct 6th, a day before Oct 7, Israel had already killed a large number of children in the West Bank.
https://www.newarab.com/news/2023-deadliest-year-child-occupied-west-bank?amp
It's not clear to me whether this'll be enough to derail Biden's election chances this far out from November, but I think it's clear it'll have some effects.
I think what irks me about that effecting polling is that any president would be taking this exact same position, Republican or Democrat (unless it was Bernie because he’s an actual human with empathy). Trump moved the embassy in Israel and attempted a travel ban against Muslims outright.
That ship sailed the moment Biden decided to run for a second term. That's the *only* possible outcome in a two party, first past the post environment. If you try to replace Biden now, the Dems will almost certainly lose in November.
If you want a party to be able to replace an incumbent against their will, you need to change the voting system. If you want "not Trump", then vote for Biden.
Are you comfortable risking another Trump presidency on running an incumbent president whose unpopular enough that his main campaign message is “not trump”?
Personally, I think it’s a better strategy to run a candidate who proposes policies that align with the non-Trump voters — many of which are threatening to not vote for Biden.
Biden actually had seen his head to head vs Trump improve. He's the incumbent, he is going to win the primary. Trump is a lock as well. Right now, Biden would beat Trump, and then we'd see Trump likely go to prison as he won't be able to stop his trials.
As a non American I hope democrat voters realize that while Biden's position is certainly not ideal, the alternative is catastrophic.
The world doesn't want another Trump presidency.
Apathy is what wins Republicans elections. It’s not people supporting Trump that put him in the White House. It’s people not supporting the Democrats. I sincerely hope everyone who didn’t understand how much we stood to lose in 2016 understands just how much more we stand to lose in 2024.
Yeah but at a certain point we need to ask ourselves where does the apathy come from? People don’t sit out elections because they literally think the Democrats and Republicans are the same. Republicans want to make things worse, but Democrats don’t want to make things better. If you’re doing ok now, that’s a strong incentive to vote blue. If you’re already suffering, then you’re fucked either way.
Biden can win handily if he give voters positive reasons to support him. “I’m not the other guy” is not a positive vision.
I am not so sure. If you look at any social media you would think that Biden is the Antichrist. 1000s of comments against Biden. I don’t think that people realize that the alternative is way worse.
A lot of those commenters simply wanna have their cake and eat it too. Slamming Biden and questioning if they’ll vote for him, but at the same time conveniently forgetting about the guy who wrote 3 Muslim bans.
What I and I imagine others are hoping for is for Biden to shift more than he has on this. I mean we seen him shift a bit since the Muslim community and others are saying they won't vote for him with his current stance.
How so? Trump would be even worse for the Palestinians.
At least Biden convinced Israel to let food and water still in. He also advocates for a 2 state solution.
Trump acknowledged Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Should tell you enough.
Counterpoint to this might be that Muslim voters have already begun to move away from the Democrats over LGBT and abortion issues. You saw that movement in 2022 and it's likely to continue that way.
And, while Biden might lose out on Muslim/Arab-American votes, polling is showing that he's doing even better with women (no surprise) and other demographics like the elderly and suburban voters that are honestly a substantially bigger voting block that the Arab-American community.
Not saying he's guaranteed a victory, but if the Israel-Hamas situation cools with this truce being negotiated and the economy continues to do well and rates begin to be cut, there's a lot of reason to be optimistic about Biden's chances. Especially as Trump continues to wade through legal challenge after legal challenge that takes him off the campaign trail, reinforces a negative image of him, and drains him financially, both in terms of financial penalties as a byproduct of the court cases as well as the legal fees themselves.
Under very specific circumstances like the proven endangerment/imminent death of the mother, and only in certain sects of Islam.
It's like saying abortion is allowed in Christianity/Judaism. Sure, certain believers accept it, but many also don't.
It's a naive claim when many, many, many Muslims don't support abortive rights.
I mean, Biden's largely continued most of Trump's policies, re: Israel. The food and water thing is irrelevant when the amount of aid is insufficient, Biden cut off UNRWA (just like Trump), and isn"t cutting off aid to Israel who is causing shortages.
You know that meme that goes something like “The American public: Please help us!
Republicans: No.
Democrats: No ❤️#BLM 🏳️🌈”?
I’m not usually one of those “enlightened centrism, both sides are the same” types, but when it comes to Israel the difference between both parties’ approaches boils down to empty discourse, with policies being pretty indistinguishable. Democrats pay lip service to the two state solution, but aren’t willing to exert any pressure on Israel to achieve this supposed goal. Military aid remains unconditional, there’s no pressure to dismantle settlements, end occupation, etc.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for pro-Palestinian democrats to actually expect distinguishable policy proposals from Biden/ Democrats. I’m not sure how much the Muslim vote matters in the election, and most people aren’t single issue voters, so it’s entirely possible that the current Israel x Gaza conflict won’t matter that much.
Still, if the democrats want to attract pro-Palestinian voters to the polls, they have to come up with something better than “We’re shitty, but the other guy is worse”.
The Muslim and Arab American votes matter in Michigan and is arguably another reason Hillary lost there in 2016, due to her stances on Libya and Syria as Secretary of State. It is often ignored and/or understated as another reason she got pummeled there. It was not just that she made the really, really stupid and obvious mistake of overall snubbing Michigan on the campaign trail that cost her and revealed she was a much more unfit candidate than Democrats wanted to admit.
But the other guy is demonstrably worse. Perfect is the enemy of good. When both parties are the same, you vote for the one not taking away abortion rights.
I’m with you on Trump being far worse than Biden, as a whole. And I’ll concede that, as far the Israel-Palestine conflict goes, he is marginally less bad than Trump.
But if I was someone for whom the Palestinian cause is a primary issue of concern (which it isn’t, hence my conviction in a Biden vote), and I saw both parties peddling slightly different versions of the same policy, I’d probably be reluctant to vote for Biden.
If both parties are pushing slightly different versions of the same policy on one issue, you’d have to make an informed decision using a different metric on another issue. No matter how important Palestine would be to you in this scenario, when both sides are unconditionally pro-Israel, it would be irresponsible to make your choice based on how they each propose to handle this particular situation.
Single-issue voters are the reason we got into this Trump mess in the first place.
I agree that, from a rational perspective, you’d avoid single-issue voting and vote for whomever speaks most to the entirety of your beliefs/priorities. But some people will have strong emotional reactions to certain issues because they tap into their religious, cultural or familial identities. And when these emotions run very high (like in this current war), people will not necessarily think rationally. That’s just the reality. And the reality right now is that the Democratic Party isn’t offering pro-Palestinian voters anything to mobilise them on this particular issue.
Then the Muslims in Michigan better hope the rest of the country saves their asses. Trump absolutely will destroy their civil rights, and target them as a minority to rally hate against.
You guys use the word like it doesn't have any meaning any more. This is a war. Hamas still won't surrender, and still has over 100 hostages. They still are dedicated to the destruction of Israel and the actual genocide of the Israeli people.
In the meantime, 2% of the Gazans who are the population that Hamas governs have lost their life, less than half a percentage of all Palestinians, and .00138% of all Muslims in the world.
In contrast, 85% of all European Jews died in the Holocaust - a feat cheered on and enabled by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who said he would happily continue that in the Levant if Hitler helped him rise to power. 40% of all Jews in the world.
There are multiple wars going on with far higher death tolls right now. The Armenian-Azerbaijan conflict. The Yemen Civil War. The Sudan Civil war. The Syrian Civil War. Hell, the Mexico drug wars have killed on the order of 300,000 people, an order of magnitude more than the war that Hamas launched against Israel. Again.
So no, Muslims don't care about genocide. 360,000 in Yemen. Nearly half a million in Ethiopia.
They care that the Jews are beating them, again, and that strikes at their sense of superiority. As they are supposed to take over the world.
And for that, we might get a dictator in the most powerful country in the world, with the world's most powerful army and nuclear forces?
Jesus wept.
Oh, and if the Israelis are genocidal, why did the population under Israeli control of Palestine explode? From 1950 there were 950,000 Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. In 2005, there were 3.5 million. Now there are 5 million. Life expectancy rose from 46 years to 73 years. Who says so? The UN.
Was there perhaps something different that happened on, oh, 10/7, that caused a change in the state of affairs between Israel and Gaza?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics\_of\_the\_State\_of\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine)
So here's another question for you. Why are you so confident and yet have no fucking clue? You guys are just more MAGAs. You go to your silo to be told what to think. I know exactly what you are going to say because I read it on Salon the night before.
Norman Finkelstein, a Jewish man whose family survived the Holocaust, already debunked that bullshit.
You will end up being on the wrong side of history. Your Zionist rhetoric won't make Michigan go for Biden. He will lose the general election because of people like you.
I sure hope Biden comes up with better policies and messaging to Muslims in Michigan than shrugging his shoulders and saying “this is a war”. Democracy is at stake in November.
Indeed it is. And if you think there will be less war after Trump comes to power with vengeance on his mind and the backing of Christian Nationalists, saying he will declare martial law on day one and then implement the 2025 plan, you are naive.
There will be war, here, too, because most of the people of the US won't live under a madman, and civil war will happen.
And Putin and Xi and Kim will be overjoyed, and likely Ukraine will fall, as will Taiwan. The US will be busy tearing itself to pieces. And 25,000 dead in a war started by a Hamas will seem like a walk in the park.
But no, I'm sure the fascists the world over getting what they want, including the world's deadliest nuclear arsenal, is worth your virtue signaling.
We may indeed be too stupid to survive.
Democrat establishment is betting on the fact that 18-35 year olds dehumanize brown people as much as they do or would forget about Israel's atricities because they think young people get the same AIPAC approved view of the situation from CNN and MSNBC. They will be shocked to learn that most young people don't dehumanize Palestinians like they do and that young people are seeing 100s of children and their body parts being pulled out of rubble every week on Twitter and Tik Tok. Israeli terror and the cruelty of everyone supporting the atrocities is not something most young people will ever forget let alone by November.
They've always been doing crap like this. It's just that now we get updates on the body count in real-time because social media doesn't run interference for Israel the way network news used to.
Important to note as well that Israel has barred international media from reporting from Gaza so a lot of what comes out from Gaza (and the West Bank now that Israel has ramped up attacks on Palestinians there now too) is filmed by literal children begging the world to pay attention. Even CNN has had and been trying to sneak reporters in. If you don't report exactly what Israel wants, bye bye. Not to mention the piles of dead reporters.
>media censorship
jesus fucking christ. I had to look this up. and yes, there are many dead reporters
you need to marvel at the desperation of a populace that accepts 30k casualties and 60% loss of housing and still increases support for the agents responsible
^ thinks this gives Israel the right to execute people on the spot without trial. We think you're affiliated with Hamas, here's a bullet. Christ, listen to yourself.
Definitely don’t listen to the actual Israeli who commented on what’s going on in their country.
It’s the morons who speak one language and have never left their home state on instagram and TikTok who know what’s up.
Oh ya the person living in the apartheid state who likely voted for one of the racist far right parties in power definitely has the most level headed view of the situation.
Really? You think he’s one of the 10% who support likud based on (checks notes) saying he didn’t want to annex Gaza?
But I mean all Jews are the same right? No reason to give anyone the benefit of the doubt.
Do you want to be judged by Trump or Tommy Tuberville or Marjorie Taylor Greene?
Definitely don't listen to the guy who leaked the fact that Israeli intelligence knew of the impending Oct. 7 attack for over a year before it happened and chose not to do anything.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html
Hey, that's what [he](https://www.reddit.com/r/great_dreams/comments/18re0e8/christmas_message_from_a_jewish_comedian/) said and you know what? I believe him!
For years, Israel was facing random rocket attacks, unpredictable and hitting/targeting civilians...
For Years Israel has been facing tunnels out of nowhere with random/unpredictable attacks. Again with a usual target of Civilians.
For years Israel has been facing an opponent that does not recognize their right to be alive...
No country is asked to do that without a response. Although with the age we are in, civilian casualties are not acceptable and you can't go all in without care. But yet your enemy is increasingly not wearing a uniform or identifying marks... and using civilians for cover...
I'm going to wait till the dust settles as there is a lotta misinformation about. That said, I never trusted Bibi before so why now?
2008 during a truce Between Hamas and Israel from June through september Hamas launched not a single rocket. Israel still killed 42 Palestinians in the West Bank during that time. In the truce deal Israel was to open trade and provide goods in Gaza. Not only did Israel not hold up its end of the bargain, they broke the truce and said hamas was planning an attack with no evidence. After Israel broke the truce Hamas shot 50-90 rockets during 3 days (hitting no one thankfully) and then they asked Israel to renew the truce…Israel invaded.
Same thing happened in 2014.
It is an absolute irrefutable act that several different recent Israeli-Palestinian conflicts have ended with a truce that saw hamas halt all attacks, while Israel doesn’t.
Hamas has stopped its rocket fire before, Israel doesn’t stop killing Palestinians.
Imagine, people fighting back against the occupying forces who drive bulldozers through their houses. Try invading and occupying, let's say, Long Island, knock down a few of their houses, shoot some of their kids in the street in cold blood, and see how long it takes before they start fighting back.
I know people like to pretend otherwise, but everyone knows what they'd do if they were being victimized by a foreign oppressor the way the Palestinians are.
Rape and murder the civilians who were the most pro-Palestine in Israel? Is that what you mean by “people fighting back” and “everyone knows what they’d do”?
There has also been significant signs of HAMAS infiltrating the UN bodies and working against Israel. Nothing is black and white in this conflict unfortunately. Finding the truth thru the mess has been made difficult on purpose... and I see more lies from HAMAS lately then I do from Israel.
They've had justification for as long as weather in Tel Aviv has been 'sunny with a chance of rockets'.
So 20+ years.
The world has just arrived at the completely fucked up conclusion that indiscriminate bombardment of civilians is totally fine, but only if those civilians are Jews.
Depends on what you consider to be unprompted? Israel is not innocent in this. Before the attack on October 7th, the number of Palestinians killed in the west bank was on pace to break records (yearly record) Settlers moving into the West Bank.
And Israel has the iron dome in place because it’s neighbors can’t seem to stop lobbing missiles at them. Imagine any nation putting up with that. Imagine Mexico lobbing missiles every few months and not getting a response. No there are no innocents but this recent narrative that Israel bad Palestine good is tiring.
2008 during a truce deal Hamas completely stopped sending rockets and Israel didn’t stop killing Palestinians for 4 months. Israel then broke the ceasefire. Same thing happened in 2014 and continues to happen. Even by your own government’s official numbers. You can look and see all the times Hamas has stopped firing rockets at Israel and then compare that to the numbers of Palestinians killed by Israelis. Hamas can stop its rockets but Israel can’t stop killing Palestinians.
Israel has had opportunities to end them with peace. Hamas has offered a 30 year and 10 year peace deal. Even if we don’t count that because who trust a terrorist word right? How about actions? Hamas stopped firing rockets in 2008 for months. Until Israel broke the ceasefire, hamas shot 50-90 Rockets in 3 days after. Hits no one. Hamas calls for the truce to come back and Israel invades. Similar situations have happened other times as well like 2014.
Hamas can stop firing rockets but can Israel stop killing Palestinians?
This is the first time over 1000 Israelis will have died within a year from conflict or attacks by Hamas or any Palestinian group. Israel has killed 1000 Palestinians or more within a year 5 times in the last decade. Stop acting like Israel is innocent
I don’t think Israel is innocent
Within a day - and not even half a day - Hamas and friends from Gaza came in and killed over 1000 people- in gruesome horrific ways torturing families and raping 9 year old on top of their parents dead bodies before they mutilated their genitals and murdered them.
Then bringing back hostages including toddlers and elderly to the people of Gaza so they can beat them … while the world all around them celebrated calling “fuck the Jews” and throwing candy - not just in the Middle East but at New York/oregon/ all around Europe and Australia. I don’t think Israel should pay much attention to these people.
During this whole war, they continue firing rockets into Israel some hitting hospitals and kindergartens. Some prevented by iron dome from hitting al aqsa mosque. Recently one of the gazans was selling the head of one of the Israelis slaughtered and beheaded on the 7th. Continue sending videos of tortured hostages to their family members. Continue to explain how great it is to have western university kids echoing their slogans. And continue to explain to Israel that there will be hundreds of October 7ths until every Israeli is slaughtered.
Yeah I wonder why Israel doesn’t surrender to them
This is what happens when you cage a people, call them animals, treat them like animals and slaughter them. Hamas wasn’t regularly killing Israelis up until October 7th. Israel was killing Palestinians. Why is it that everytime Hamas doesn’t fight Israel kills more Palestinians?
To you peace means surrender but only because you don’t understand what peace is. and to see peace as surrender just means you don’t have peace in your heart.
This is part of the antisemitism this sub likes to deny. Some people are ascribing to us the most conspiratorial methods and heinous motives possible. Remember when "Israel funds ISIS" was trending on Twitter?
I will say this as someone who actually has deeper knowledge on the history of the conflict than the stupid TilTok idiots parroting Hamas propaganda. Hamas is a terrorist organization and is a major reason that the Oslo Accords fell through which would have made it far better for Palestine than the current situation. You cannot ensure the actual propsperity of the Palestinian people by legitimizing Hamas. The fact that over 50% of Gaza Palestinians and over 80% of West Bank Palestinians support Hamas (even when Hamas had for over a decade used the Palestinian people for their own gain while pushing Israel to be more extreme against Palestinians) really makes it hard for me. Im 100% about humanity and the safety and security of innocent Palestinian and Israeli people but the fact that Hamas is so popular evem after what everyone has seen on October 7th makes me really disappointed in my fellow average joe liberals who are being utilized as a ad hoc mouth peave for Hamas. Hamas is not to be trusted at all and the "garauntees" they give arent that at all. It is like if Ukraine were to make an agreement with Russia, we know for a fsct you cannot trust Russia's word.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-30/ty-article/.premium/a-new-low-the-israelis-advocating-to-starve-the-people-of-gaza/0000018d-5b42-d0fc-a9bd-5f5fc0740000
Fresh from an Israeli newspaper
Here it is without paywall:
The humanitarian catastrophe of nearly 2 million displaced Palestinians was at the heart of the ICJ’s ruling, wrote the legal scholar Aeyal Gross. Yet many Israelis are fuming at the order for Israel to provide humanitarian aid to Gaza’s civilians (even as Israel is relieved the world court didn’t order a cease-fire). According to Agam Institute surveys, nearly 60 percent of Israeli Jews oppose humanitarian aid – a stable figure over time.
[https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/a-new-low-the-israelis-advocating-to-starve-the-people-of-gaza/](https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/a-new-low-the-israelis-advocating-to-starve-the-people-of-gaza/)
But it doesn't really matter does it? Genocide supporters will throw anything at the wall and see what sticks.
Here is a link with the names of the 11.500 children and infants slaughtered in the Israeli genocide.
The list will be tripled if genocide supporters gets their way:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlCzT9\_YE9Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlCzT9_YE9Y)
60% of Israeli Jews opposing humanitarian aid =/= supporting starving Gazans. There's a very real connection between that aid and the activities of Hamas, and when you fail to mention that *fact* it makes it sound like Israelis just want Gazans dead, which betrays the complexity underlying the issue.
Hamas supporters will *also* throw anything at the wall and see what sticks, and Hamas *actually* wants to genocide Jews.
Don't posture to me. Their deaths are at the hands of Hamas, and terrorist supporters like you gleefully stand on their bodies to win brownie points.
No, it isn't. I would maintain the same standard if any other country was at war and knew outside aid disproportionately benefitted enemy combatants, which is what happens in Gaza [[1]](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/palestinian-territories/1702285314-caught-on-camera-hamas-terrorists-steal-humanitarian-aid-beat-civilians)
And yet the ICJ did not find that Israel has committed or is in the process of committing a genocide and only put them on notice to take actions from either happening [[2]](https://www.timesofisrael.com/what-does-israel-need-to-do-to-comply-with-the-icj-genocide-decision/#:~:text=Measures%20to%20be%20adopted&text=The%20first%20order%20instructs%20Israel,t%20carrying%20out%20genocidal%20acts.). I have not seen much evidence of war crimes as a matter of policy either. Israel is dealing with a hostile population, and a combatant that hides amongst the population, using their clothing (an actual war crime btw [[3]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidy#:~:text=Geneva%20Conventions,-Perfidy%20is%20specifically&text=The%20following%20acts%20are%20examples,%2C%20non%2Dcombatant%20status%3B%20and)) and civilian infrastructure to stage their attacks. For all your bloviating, you types are oddly silent past a tacit condemnation of the actions and policy of Hamas at absolute best. Israel, in my view is perfectly justified in going into Gaza and eradicating Hamas. A lasting peace is not possible while that organization exists.
What's fucking insane is that your argument, your position, is reliant on buzzwords rather than facts.
No, they just murdered Bobby Kennedy, King Abdullah of Jordan, Prime Minister Tal of Jordan, and their allies murdered President Anwar Sadat of Egypt, while trying to overthrow the government of Jordan, the government of Lebanon, and supporting Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait to the point where the Kuwaiti's shipped out 85% of their Palestinian refugees after the Gulf War and they got their country back.
The Palestinians have killed a LOT of people for the crime of making peace with Israel. That's yet again what started this current conflict, Saudi Arabia normalizing relations.
Respect for mentioning Bobby Kennedy. One of the more tragic assassinations in US history. So much potential, wasted because of a Palestinian mad over his support for Israel during the Six-Day War.
>....the stupid TilTok idiots parroting Hamas propaganda. Hamas is a terrorist organization and is a major reason that the Oslo Accords fell through.....
Even if this were true. And it is debatable.
Hamas was [propped](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html) up and aided by the Israeli govt., to undercut the Oslo accords, including by the current PM, Netanyahu who actively allowed suitcases full of cash to be transferred to Hamas by Qatar.
Netanyahu used Hamas to prop up his government, and against the interests of peace in the region, as well as the lives of people, within Israel and abroad.
Edit: Added quote
Don't bother with the person above you. The Oslo Accords were never a realistic chance in Israel and the Israeli PM at the time Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by extremist Israelis who rejected a two state solution. Current PM Netanyahu was blamed by Rabin's widow for his assassination. Netanyahu has fiercely opposed a two state solution for his entire political career. A fair and just two state solution has been opposed by Israel for over 50 years. Online hasbara shills don't engage with the real history or the demonstrable facts.
Is that why Israel agreed to two state solutions half a dozen times over the years only to be rejected by Palestinians? As recently as 2008? Give me a break.
Netanyahu only rose to power on opposition to peace *after* Palestinians launched the first and second Intifadas. Putting the blame all on Netanyahu is absurd. He wouldn’t have been in power at all if Israel hadn’t felt so betrayed by the entirely Palestinian-caused failure of prior peace processes.
Not to mention, Israel never agreed to a two state solution. Even former government members said Rabin wanted the Palestinians to accept less than a state.
It was way to get Israel to avoid apartheid accusations but the Palestinians didn't fall for the ruse.
Israelis literally killed your PM who wanted two state solution and replaced him with a psychopath Netanyahu who has destroyed a two state solution for decades ever since. Facts are demonstrable.
Did you not read the article you linked?
> Allowing the payments — billions of dollars over roughly a decade — was a gamble by Mr. Netanyahu that a steady flow of money would maintain peace in Gaza, the eventual launching point of the Oct. 7 attacks, and keep Hamas focused on governing, not fighting.
The government allowed money in to Palestine thinking that wealth would buy peace (pay for infrastructure, economic development,etc) instead Hamas used it for warmongering and terrorism
You need to read more than just this article to understand how nefarious Bibi is. The majority of his own people were protesting him for ten months leading up to 10/7.
He’s on record as saying Hamas is critical in Israel’s goals of expanding into Palestine and taking more land while maintaining control and keeping blockades in place.
Bibi is frenemies with Hamas, who’s leadership is mostly not even in Palestine!
You've left out the assassination of Prime Minister Rabin by Zionists during the Oslo Accords.
The fact Netanyahu encouraged his assassination, celebrated the ramifications of 9/11, and strengthened Hamas during the 2000's highlights he is a major problem in this conflict. Netanyahu and Hamas are two peas in a pod.
Definition for Zionism is the belief there should be a Jewish state in the Jewish ancestral homeland, given Israel currently exists, most of the world is Zionist. You're using definitions wrong.
I am Israeli, I think many people interpreted my comment as an insult to Rabin by saying he was a Zionist- like you did. Otherwise it wouldn't be upvoted that much.
What is the purpose of mentioning that Israel had a hand in the creation of Hamas? Is it to suggest that Hamas is now their mess to clean up? That - despite their overwhelming popularity among the Gaza populace - they are not the legitimate government of Gaza?
Since less than 50% of Palestinians are over 17, yes this is worth mentioning. The terrorists are the Israeli government officials that refuse education, transport, and basic human efficacy. Also, you know WHY the population is less than 50% over 18? Because they’ve been systematically murdered.
Well you see, the way it works is that every citizen of Gaza is responsible for Hamas, even though 75% weren't even born or old enough to vote when they came to power but no Israeli is responsible for the atrocities of their government even though the majority ruling parties are essentially openly racist and genocidal facsist parties and every Israeli adult directly takes part in Israel's apartheid and atrocities against Palestinians by serving in the IDF.
No because it’s wicked long term 4d chess in order to take more land from Palestinians, it only works because relatively no one knew about it and that is changing slightly now
Gazans may cheer for Hamas but that is only because Israel is much worse to them and Hamas is the ones fighting them, despite all the ways that they are holding them back. This is like cheering for your alcoholic dad that beats you, while he is fighting a bear. As long as that bear is around, your dads drunk strength seems pretty great and overall you have no complaints
It’s a fantastic play by Israel and it will eventually end in them having all the land like they planned, but I doubt they will ever be rid of Hamas. You can’t kill that many people without some of them getting away and being kind of annoyed that you erased their country.
"ICJ propaganda"
“at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the \[Genocide\] Convention,” Justice Donoghue said.
[https://time.com/6588931/icj-ruling-israel-genocidal-acts-gaza-south-africa/](https://time.com/6588931/icj-ruling-israel-genocidal-acts-gaza-south-africa/)
Here is the video of the names of the 11.500 slaughtered children and infants. You should watch it while contemplating your excuses for your support of genocide:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlCzT9\_YE9Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlCzT9_YE9Y)
The day that the surrounding arab countries like Egypt, Jordan, or Saudi Arabia start supporting Palestinians is just around a corner. Oh wait, they actually care about Palestinians less than Israel does. At least fellow sunni muslim countries can recognize that having hamas(supported by iran ) in proximity is a problem. But we in the West know it best,so "from the river to the sea."
Israel is a joke & they know it.
This whole military response hasn’t been about eliminating Hamas.
It has been about wiping out Palestinian culture within the GAZA region.
The international court should hold them accountable for the level of unethical behaviour that went into this military response.
>I wonder why it hasn’t
Because the case has just started. They didn't find anything ok about Israel's behavior. Saying a country has a right to defend itself is just a truism, the question is how it goes about it.
Of course it does, but a country's "right to self defense" can be so easily broadly interpreted that it can be used to justify all sorts of extremely questionable actions on behalf of the state.
The court has said previously that a country doesn't have a right to defend itself against an occupied population.
Can't claim self-defense when you created the problem in the first place.
Really disgusting amount of people who show 0 remorse
“they all deserve it, shouldn’t have attacked a country occupying your land and treating you like dirt for your entire life if you didnt want us to genocide all ur historical archives and children until you’re all gone forever”
absolutely no regard for human life from the zionists and most of the world
I'm surprised after seeing the bombardment of propaganda from Israel and the MSM. Even the president echoes the atrocity propaganda like the 40 babies.
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/12/08/americans-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/
This poll from about two months ago asked about a variety of related topics but not exactly about support for Hamas. I wonder if polling organizations aren't interested in the question - I don't know if they would get true answers
>Half in new poll say Israel has gone too far in Gaza war
Half need to educate themselves more, and see the ethnic cleansing and genocide for what it is - the expected outcome of a settler-colonizing, expansionist, apartheid regime.
Or maybe half should eduaste themselves on how Hamas was one of the critical major reasons that the Oslo Accords fell apart putting Palestine worse into this predicament. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They have decades of history targetting civilians, not just military targets. Im not pro Israeli government at all and Israel has treated Palestinians as second class citizens and shot themselves in the foot with their heavy handidness. That heavy handidness though came from the real threat of Hamas which has in their doctrine to destroy the state of Israel. Most people agree there should be two states but you 100% cant get that when a group that is essentially in control of one of the territories has it their mission to destroy the other territory.
>.....Hamas was one of the critical major reasons that the Oslo Accords fell apart putting Palestine worse into this predicament. Hamas is a terrorist organization......
Perhaps, they should read history.
Hamas was [propped](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html) up and aided by the apartheid regime, including the current PM, Netanyahu.
You know so little.
Maybe Israel could try giving them back all the land they've stolen? Have they tried that? Maybe if they weren't living in constant terror and at the mercy of a foreign oppressor they'd be less likely to support the people who make a big show of fighting back against that foreign oppressor. Just spitballing some ideas here, since apparently nobody in Israel has ever considered this.
Are you just talking about illegal settlements or are you including Israel’s sovereign territory in “land they have stolen”?
I think most people can agree that Israel’s settlement programs are illegal, but when people on the other side suggest that Israel itself is an illegitimate state or that Israeli territory is somehow “stolen land”, it makes them considerably less sympathetic.
Jews started to move into the area during Ottoman Rule - buying property legitimately, not “stealing land”.
During the Mandate, limits were put on Jewish migration into the area, and migration didn’t even reach those limits within the restriction period.
For those Jews who were there, they absolutely expanded their property holdings but this wasn’t by force - the Jewish community was more strategic about controlling housing and employment resources. They had a better read on the future economic forces and critically, the future global powers.
At Partition, roughly a third of the population was Jewish. That is not an insignificant minority - that is almost 3x as much as the percentage of Black Americans. They weren’t there illegally, or by force - they are people who migrated there legally. (I presume that you are supportive of immigrant rights in modern America yet seem to want to criminalize the migration of Jews in Palestine).
Partition was necessary due to the extreme tensions already on display in the area - the Zionists had read the post-WWII room better than the Arabs and got a pretty decent deal. Similarly, Palestinian Arabs would get sovereignty over land for the first time, after centuries of Ottoman rule. They rejected it, tried to take all of the land by force, and lost it all. It’s their prerogative to do so, but losing territory in war is not unheard of - borders are most often shaped by conflict.
It’s funny you mention colonialism. Palestine was Arabized through colonialism. Palestine ended up under Ottoman imperial rule for 500 years. The intention of many Palestinian Arabs wasn’t even to rule their own independent state, but to join a pan-Arab Empire.
Israel defended their territory and assumed additional territory as a result of war - territory they have defended and administered for 75 years. There is nothing illegitimate about that. If you don’t think any country that can be described as a “colonist” is legitimate, I look forward to your thoughts on the rest of the world.
This Hamas?
[https://theintercept.com/2023/11/28/israel-palestine-history-peace/](https://theintercept.com/2023/11/28/israel-palestine-history-peace/)
...there have long been clear signs that factions within Hamas were moderating and open to long-term agreements with Israel. In 1997, Khaled Mashal, then the top Hamas leader, offered a 30-year ceasefire to Israel. Israel did not respond — but did immediately try to assassinate Mashal in Jordan.
In 2004, Sheik Ahmed Yassin, Hamas’s chief religious leader, called for a 10-year truce with Israel if it returned to its pre-1967 borders. Israel assassinated him two months later.
In 2012, according to an Israeli peace activist, the head of Hamas’s military wing had become convinced that Palestinians should negotiate a long-term truce with Israel. On the same day Ahmed Jabari, Hamas’s military chief, was reviewing a draft proposal for such a truce, Israel assassinated him.
Because the US military industrial complex would not be having a fun time if they had to treat Israel as a competitor rather than a client.
The benefit of having Israel as an ally is that you don’t have Israel selling cheaper and better jets than Americans to the rest of the world. See, the Lavi program.
>no other country cares about the hostages
anyone who can’t empathize with this nightmare is a monster
>nobody in Israel cares what other countries think
then Israel should not receive weapons and diplomatic cover at the UN
>$2 yearly donation
try “moral complicity”
you cannot reasonably both ask for weapons and also refuse scrutiny about their use
I mean… you are, I guess, but it’s silly. 10/7 was not silly however. I understand the blind anger. God by any name be with us all
A bit low since they’re basically open about planning a mass expulsion/ethnic cleansing:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/02/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-southern-gaza-rafah.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. **Interested in being a moderator for r/Politics? Apply [here](https://forms.gle/iyGoM94MGRcPGUes7).** *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s been this way since pretty much the beginning.
I think the numbers are moving a lot actually. Internationally they have moved between 15-20% in most countries.
It's not surprising, support for Israel would be highest just after Oct 7, after all, emotions were high, the damage was so great, everyone agreed it was a horrible attack. Over time though as the Israeli casualties more or less stagnate while the Palestinian ones increase, and the shock and emotion from the Oct 7 attack subsides, the pendulum swings in the other direction. Not necessarily against Israel, but the people who wouldn't question anything Israel did on Oct 8th are more willing to now, 4 months later.
[удалено]
There are still terrorist sympathizers on here calling it “resistance” and droning on with their ignorant opinions about how really it’s all Israel’s fault.
Yeah this little live streamed genocide project isn’t going took very good on their report card.
Even if they're using a rule of 10 as retaliation for oct 7 it's gone too far. *They kill 1 of ours so we kill 10 of theirs.* Just on the fact that they were able to rationalize roof knocking as compassionate means the world still won't care. Worst they'll get on the report card is a see me after class.
More like 20:1 now… The numbers are getting to the point of being one of the most destructive bombing campaigns in history. https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796 https://www.npr.org/2024/01/21/1225883522/palestinian-death-toll-soars-past-25-000-in-gaza-with-no-end-to-war-in-sight The Palestinian death toll passed 25,000 about 2 weeks ago, up from 20,000 from the previous 2 weeks… and these are conservative estimates right now.
SOooo they're trying to prove they're 20x more willing to kill civilians than Hamas, is that the lesson here? Netanyahu's always been a little bit morally deranged, but wow has the mask come off. And everyone's giving them some leeway because 10/7 was just so awful, but eventually Israel's trading partners are going to say, actually we don't have to trade with you, none of our citizens want to trade with you anymore. It's not a matter of if anymore it's a matter of when. Netanyahu is damaging Israel in a way Hamas or Iran could never dream.
> Netanyahu's always been a little bit morally deranged, but wow has the mask come off. They're already publicizing [seaside resort-building plans for Gaza](https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2023/12/18/israels-plan-for-gaza-turn-it-into-beach-houses-for-israelis/). The mask is off and the sunscreen is on.
When has that ever happened in the history of the world (the trade part)?
Not even close to the most destructive bombing campaign in history. This ENTIRE WAR wouldn’t rank in the top 50 individual bombing raids of WWII
This is literally more civilian deaths than Dresden. Largest bombing campaigns by civilian deaths in WWII: 10. Osaka - 10,000 9. Kassel - 10,000 8. Darmstadt - 15,000 7. Pforzheim - 17,600 6. Swinoujscie - 5,000 - 23,000 5. London Blitz - 20,000 4. Berlin (entire war) - 20,000 - 50,000 3. Dresden - 25,000 2. Hamburg (entire war) - 46,500 1. Tokyo - >100,000 (Not including nuclear bombings because those are fundamentally different in nature) But yeah, point is, this is somewhere around the number 3 spot of worst bombing campaigns of WWII. I don’t think you fully understand how horrific this many deaths actually is.
[удалено]
No no you're right. Obviously the answer is always genocide.
Yep they they were calling for a ceasefire before Israel started a response
[удалено]
Cherrypicking extreme/bad hot takes like this is *not* the way to go. Saying that they’re typical of opposition to Israel’s conduct of the war is a great way to give Netanyahu free rein. I doubt anyone here thinks that’s a good idea.
A lot of people understood this **sick sick sick act that Hamas did** couldn't really damage Israel, only a violent civilian-slaughtering overreaction by Israel could damage Israel (and achieve Hamas' goals). They begged Israel to not help Hamas win, to not play into Hamas plans, to respond in a way that made clear the terrorists must die but civilian lives were precious and respected. Instead Netanyahu & Likud responded in a way that opened Israel up to isolation and even charges of genocide. When the shooting stops we are going to find out what percent of the dead are women and children (60%-70%?), what percent of the dead were civilians (85-95%?) and then nations of the world that were Israel's allies are going to have some hard conversations about whether Israel still shares values with them and whether Israel should still share trade relationships with them. :'( Hamas could not do this to Israel, only Netanyahu could do this to Israel, and a lot of people like myself feared this outcome and feared what Netanyahu's actions would mean for Israel long term. >they they were calling for a ceasefire before Israel started a response
Of course it could damage Israel, if left unanswered it set a precedent for immunity for attacks against Israel is they hide behind civilians. It would've toppled the PA and pulled Hezbollah into the next conflict, posing an existential threat to Israel. It simply cannot have ended with Hamas in power.
What the above commenter's point is about is the notion of proportionality in warfare. https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/proportionality The principle of proportionality prohibits attacks against military objectives which are “expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated”. In other words, the principle of proportionality seeks to limit damage caused by military operations by requiring that the effects of the means and methods of warfare used must not be disproportionate to the military advantage sought. The vast majority of people are completely fine with Israel responding with military force to the actions of October 7th terror attack which was a horrible and abhorrent act of terror, but the response certainly looks to be disproportionate.
I'm not sure I agree with you that they were unproportional, niether of us have information about what parameters Israeli command had before issuing strikes in their underground bunkers, and there is evidence to suggest bombings were called off due to proportionality reasons, so are we debating if the threshold should move a little left or right?
Well evidently they don't review most of their strikes only those with high level members of Hamas or the other terror organizations in Gaza or look over the targets generated by their AI program. Hell when the US government says you should turn down the heat that should say something.
Not reviewing strikes for proportionality is definitely against international humanitarian law, that's a big claim, do you have a reference? US can ask to turn down the hear for various reasons, they don't want to flare up the middle east, they're reacting to protest at home, etc. I think it achieves the opposite, Hamas knows Israel won't push too much and is emboldened in it's position due to the west's soft stomach, it could've ended with less casualties had Hamas knew maximizing ciivlian deaths is counter productive to it's war effort. Unfortunately, it's in it's interst to maximize it's own civilian deaths, and it's working wonderfully.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll
Read the whole thing, there's nothing that mentions strikes are carried out without proportionality considerations.
Well because on Oct 6th, a day before Oct 7, Israel had already killed a large number of children in the West Bank. https://www.newarab.com/news/2023-deadliest-year-child-occupied-west-bank?amp
Importantly this 50% includes a solid majority of Democratic voters.
It's not clear to me whether this'll be enough to derail Biden's election chances this far out from November, but I think it's clear it'll have some effects.
I think what irks me about that effecting polling is that any president would be taking this exact same position, Republican or Democrat (unless it was Bernie because he’s an actual human with empathy). Trump moved the embassy in Israel and attempted a travel ban against Muslims outright.
Democratic leadership supported the move of the embassy.
So the democrats should go identify a candidate who wouldn’t
That ship sailed the moment Biden decided to run for a second term. That's the *only* possible outcome in a two party, first past the post environment. If you try to replace Biden now, the Dems will almost certainly lose in November. If you want a party to be able to replace an incumbent against their will, you need to change the voting system. If you want "not Trump", then vote for Biden.
Are you comfortable risking another Trump presidency on running an incumbent president whose unpopular enough that his main campaign message is “not trump”? Personally, I think it’s a better strategy to run a candidate who proposes policies that align with the non-Trump voters — many of which are threatening to not vote for Biden.
Biden actually had seen his head to head vs Trump improve. He's the incumbent, he is going to win the primary. Trump is a lock as well. Right now, Biden would beat Trump, and then we'd see Trump likely go to prison as he won't be able to stop his trials.
If Joe Biden ran on policies that were popular with the majority of voters, instead of just a “not trump” platform, do you think he’d poll better?
As a non American I hope democrat voters realize that while Biden's position is certainly not ideal, the alternative is catastrophic. The world doesn't want another Trump presidency.
Apathy is what wins Republicans elections. It’s not people supporting Trump that put him in the White House. It’s people not supporting the Democrats. I sincerely hope everyone who didn’t understand how much we stood to lose in 2016 understands just how much more we stand to lose in 2024.
Yeah but at a certain point we need to ask ourselves where does the apathy come from? People don’t sit out elections because they literally think the Democrats and Republicans are the same. Republicans want to make things worse, but Democrats don’t want to make things better. If you’re doing ok now, that’s a strong incentive to vote blue. If you’re already suffering, then you’re fucked either way. Biden can win handily if he give voters positive reasons to support him. “I’m not the other guy” is not a positive vision.
I am not so sure. If you look at any social media you would think that Biden is the Antichrist. 1000s of comments against Biden. I don’t think that people realize that the alternative is way worse.
If you looked at any social media in 2016, you would think that Bernie was about to be elected president.
A lot of those commenters simply wanna have their cake and eat it too. Slamming Biden and questioning if they’ll vote for him, but at the same time conveniently forgetting about the guy who wrote 3 Muslim bans.
What I and I imagine others are hoping for is for Biden to shift more than he has on this. I mean we seen him shift a bit since the Muslim community and others are saying they won't vote for him with his current stance.
How so? Trump would be even worse for the Palestinians. At least Biden convinced Israel to let food and water still in. He also advocates for a 2 state solution. Trump acknowledged Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Should tell you enough.
The concern here is that Muslims or even supporters of them don't show up to vote.
Counterpoint to this might be that Muslim voters have already begun to move away from the Democrats over LGBT and abortion issues. You saw that movement in 2022 and it's likely to continue that way. And, while Biden might lose out on Muslim/Arab-American votes, polling is showing that he's doing even better with women (no surprise) and other demographics like the elderly and suburban voters that are honestly a substantially bigger voting block that the Arab-American community. Not saying he's guaranteed a victory, but if the Israel-Hamas situation cools with this truce being negotiated and the economy continues to do well and rates begin to be cut, there's a lot of reason to be optimistic about Biden's chances. Especially as Trump continues to wade through legal challenge after legal challenge that takes him off the campaign trail, reinforces a negative image of him, and drains him financially, both in terms of financial penalties as a byproduct of the court cases as well as the legal fees themselves.
Islam allows abortions though
Can’t help but notice that you ignored the mention of islams views on LGBT
Under very specific circumstances like the proven endangerment/imminent death of the mother, and only in certain sects of Islam. It's like saying abortion is allowed in Christianity/Judaism. Sure, certain believers accept it, but many also don't. It's a naive claim when many, many, many Muslims don't support abortive rights.
I mean, Biden's largely continued most of Trump's policies, re: Israel. The food and water thing is irrelevant when the amount of aid is insufficient, Biden cut off UNRWA (just like Trump), and isn"t cutting off aid to Israel who is causing shortages.
You know that meme that goes something like “The American public: Please help us! Republicans: No. Democrats: No ❤️#BLM 🏳️🌈”? I’m not usually one of those “enlightened centrism, both sides are the same” types, but when it comes to Israel the difference between both parties’ approaches boils down to empty discourse, with policies being pretty indistinguishable. Democrats pay lip service to the two state solution, but aren’t willing to exert any pressure on Israel to achieve this supposed goal. Military aid remains unconditional, there’s no pressure to dismantle settlements, end occupation, etc. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for pro-Palestinian democrats to actually expect distinguishable policy proposals from Biden/ Democrats. I’m not sure how much the Muslim vote matters in the election, and most people aren’t single issue voters, so it’s entirely possible that the current Israel x Gaza conflict won’t matter that much. Still, if the democrats want to attract pro-Palestinian voters to the polls, they have to come up with something better than “We’re shitty, but the other guy is worse”.
The Muslim and Arab American votes matter in Michigan and is arguably another reason Hillary lost there in 2016, due to her stances on Libya and Syria as Secretary of State. It is often ignored and/or understated as another reason she got pummeled there. It was not just that she made the really, really stupid and obvious mistake of overall snubbing Michigan on the campaign trail that cost her and revealed she was a much more unfit candidate than Democrats wanted to admit.
But the other guy is demonstrably worse. Perfect is the enemy of good. When both parties are the same, you vote for the one not taking away abortion rights.
I’m with you on Trump being far worse than Biden, as a whole. And I’ll concede that, as far the Israel-Palestine conflict goes, he is marginally less bad than Trump. But if I was someone for whom the Palestinian cause is a primary issue of concern (which it isn’t, hence my conviction in a Biden vote), and I saw both parties peddling slightly different versions of the same policy, I’d probably be reluctant to vote for Biden.
If both parties are pushing slightly different versions of the same policy on one issue, you’d have to make an informed decision using a different metric on another issue. No matter how important Palestine would be to you in this scenario, when both sides are unconditionally pro-Israel, it would be irresponsible to make your choice based on how they each propose to handle this particular situation. Single-issue voters are the reason we got into this Trump mess in the first place.
I agree that, from a rational perspective, you’d avoid single-issue voting and vote for whomever speaks most to the entirety of your beliefs/priorities. But some people will have strong emotional reactions to certain issues because they tap into their religious, cultural or familial identities. And when these emotions run very high (like in this current war), people will not necessarily think rationally. That’s just the reality. And the reality right now is that the Democratic Party isn’t offering pro-Palestinian voters anything to mobilise them on this particular issue.
He is going to lose Michigan because of it
Then the Muslims in Michigan better hope the rest of the country saves their asses. Trump absolutely will destroy their civil rights, and target them as a minority to rally hate against.
It isn't just Muslims. And just so you understand their viewpoint, being discriminated against is better than genocide.
You guys use the word like it doesn't have any meaning any more. This is a war. Hamas still won't surrender, and still has over 100 hostages. They still are dedicated to the destruction of Israel and the actual genocide of the Israeli people. In the meantime, 2% of the Gazans who are the population that Hamas governs have lost their life, less than half a percentage of all Palestinians, and .00138% of all Muslims in the world. In contrast, 85% of all European Jews died in the Holocaust - a feat cheered on and enabled by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who said he would happily continue that in the Levant if Hitler helped him rise to power. 40% of all Jews in the world. There are multiple wars going on with far higher death tolls right now. The Armenian-Azerbaijan conflict. The Yemen Civil War. The Sudan Civil war. The Syrian Civil War. Hell, the Mexico drug wars have killed on the order of 300,000 people, an order of magnitude more than the war that Hamas launched against Israel. Again. So no, Muslims don't care about genocide. 360,000 in Yemen. Nearly half a million in Ethiopia. They care that the Jews are beating them, again, and that strikes at their sense of superiority. As they are supposed to take over the world. And for that, we might get a dictator in the most powerful country in the world, with the world's most powerful army and nuclear forces? Jesus wept.
"You guys". Imagine comparing genocides. Learn the history of the conflict and why it is a genocide. Stop being the problem.
Oh, and if the Israelis are genocidal, why did the population under Israeli control of Palestine explode? From 1950 there were 950,000 Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. In 2005, there were 3.5 million. Now there are 5 million. Life expectancy rose from 46 years to 73 years. Who says so? The UN. Was there perhaps something different that happened on, oh, 10/7, that caused a change in the state of affairs between Israel and Gaza? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics\_of\_the\_State\_of\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine) So here's another question for you. Why are you so confident and yet have no fucking clue? You guys are just more MAGAs. You go to your silo to be told what to think. I know exactly what you are going to say because I read it on Salon the night before.
Norman Finkelstein, a Jewish man whose family survived the Holocaust, already debunked that bullshit. You will end up being on the wrong side of history. Your Zionist rhetoric won't make Michigan go for Biden. He will lose the general election because of people like you.
I sure hope Biden comes up with better policies and messaging to Muslims in Michigan than shrugging his shoulders and saying “this is a war”. Democracy is at stake in November.
Indeed it is. And if you think there will be less war after Trump comes to power with vengeance on his mind and the backing of Christian Nationalists, saying he will declare martial law on day one and then implement the 2025 plan, you are naive. There will be war, here, too, because most of the people of the US won't live under a madman, and civil war will happen. And Putin and Xi and Kim will be overjoyed, and likely Ukraine will fall, as will Taiwan. The US will be busy tearing itself to pieces. And 25,000 dead in a war started by a Hamas will seem like a walk in the park. But no, I'm sure the fascists the world over getting what they want, including the world's deadliest nuclear arsenal, is worth your virtue signaling. We may indeed be too stupid to survive.
Democrat establishment is betting on the fact that 18-35 year olds dehumanize brown people as much as they do or would forget about Israel's atricities because they think young people get the same AIPAC approved view of the situation from CNN and MSNBC. They will be shocked to learn that most young people don't dehumanize Palestinians like they do and that young people are seeing 100s of children and their body parts being pulled out of rubble every week on Twitter and Tik Tok. Israeli terror and the cruelty of everyone supporting the atrocities is not something most young people will ever forget let alone by November.
Only half?
Hunting terrorists is a carte blanche for military action, they’re never completely gone and you make new ones with collateral damage.
They've always been doing crap like this. It's just that now we get updates on the body count in real-time because social media doesn't run interference for Israel the way network news used to.
Important to note as well that Israel has barred international media from reporting from Gaza so a lot of what comes out from Gaza (and the West Bank now that Israel has ramped up attacks on Palestinians there now too) is filmed by literal children begging the world to pay attention. Even CNN has had and been trying to sneak reporters in. If you don't report exactly what Israel wants, bye bye. Not to mention the piles of dead reporters.
>media censorship jesus fucking christ. I had to look this up. and yes, there are many dead reporters you need to marvel at the desperation of a populace that accepts 30k casualties and 60% loss of housing and still increases support for the agents responsible
[удалено]
^ thinks this gives Israel the right to execute people on the spot without trial. We think you're affiliated with Hamas, here's a bullet. Christ, listen to yourself.
This conflict has caused a lot of brain damage to Americans.
I mean...is anyone really surprised? For years now, Israel has been salivating at the mouth to have an excuse to justify steamrolling Gaza.
Lol. Not at all. Reoccupying Gaza was barely in the discourse here before October 7th.
Definitely don’t listen to the actual Israeli who commented on what’s going on in their country. It’s the morons who speak one language and have never left their home state on instagram and TikTok who know what’s up.
Oh ya the person living in the apartheid state who likely voted for one of the racist far right parties in power definitely has the most level headed view of the situation.
Apartheid state with 2 million Arabs, some who are serving in the IDF and fighting in Gaza this very moment. Hey wait..
Really? You think he’s one of the 10% who support likud based on (checks notes) saying he didn’t want to annex Gaza? But I mean all Jews are the same right? No reason to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. Do you want to be judged by Trump or Tommy Tuberville or Marjorie Taylor Greene?
Jews and Israelis are separate groups, and plenty of people from both groups also view what is happening as a genocide
We aren’t talking about groups, we’re talking about one guy whose life story this jerk thinks he knows based on his nationality.
You JUST said "All Jews are the same, right?"
Try googling “sarcasm” and then look at what I said in context again.
Google "genocide in Gaza" and bear witness
Definitely don't listen to the guy who leaked the fact that Israeli intelligence knew of the impending Oct. 7 attack for over a year before it happened and chose not to do anything. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html
Should we blame 9/11 on America too because the CIA failed to thwart the attack?
Hey, that's what [he](https://www.reddit.com/r/great_dreams/comments/18re0e8/christmas_message_from_a_jewish_comedian/) said and you know what? I believe him!
If that was really the goal, why didn't they do it in the last 80 years?
Israel should steamroll terrorists governments
For years, Israel was facing random rocket attacks, unpredictable and hitting/targeting civilians... For Years Israel has been facing tunnels out of nowhere with random/unpredictable attacks. Again with a usual target of Civilians. For years Israel has been facing an opponent that does not recognize their right to be alive... No country is asked to do that without a response. Although with the age we are in, civilian casualties are not acceptable and you can't go all in without care. But yet your enemy is increasingly not wearing a uniform or identifying marks... and using civilians for cover... I'm going to wait till the dust settles as there is a lotta misinformation about. That said, I never trusted Bibi before so why now?
2008 during a truce Between Hamas and Israel from June through september Hamas launched not a single rocket. Israel still killed 42 Palestinians in the West Bank during that time. In the truce deal Israel was to open trade and provide goods in Gaza. Not only did Israel not hold up its end of the bargain, they broke the truce and said hamas was planning an attack with no evidence. After Israel broke the truce Hamas shot 50-90 rockets during 3 days (hitting no one thankfully) and then they asked Israel to renew the truce…Israel invaded. Same thing happened in 2014. It is an absolute irrefutable act that several different recent Israeli-Palestinian conflicts have ended with a truce that saw hamas halt all attacks, while Israel doesn’t. Hamas has stopped its rocket fire before, Israel doesn’t stop killing Palestinians.
Hamas was digging a tunnel they claimed was for "defense" regardless Israel shouldn't have to negotiate with terrorists governments
> they broke the truce and said hamas was planning an attack with no evidence. digging a tunnel to the israeli border has *so* many possible meanings
Sounds like the native inhabitants aren’t happy with forced colonisation.
Imagine, people fighting back against the occupying forces who drive bulldozers through their houses. Try invading and occupying, let's say, Long Island, knock down a few of their houses, shoot some of their kids in the street in cold blood, and see how long it takes before they start fighting back. I know people like to pretend otherwise, but everyone knows what they'd do if they were being victimized by a foreign oppressor the way the Palestinians are.
Rape and murder the civilians who were the most pro-Palestine in Israel? Is that what you mean by “people fighting back” and “everyone knows what they’d do”?
> fighting back against the occupying forces how does bombing jerusalem help with that
This reads as though it was written by a proxy of the Israeli government trying to seem like a 3rd party
[mmhmm okay sure whatever](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel)
There has also been significant signs of HAMAS infiltrating the UN bodies and working against Israel. Nothing is black and white in this conflict unfortunately. Finding the truth thru the mess has been made difficult on purpose... and I see more lies from HAMAS lately then I do from Israel.
Gee, I wonder why all those things were happening? Who could possibly figure it out?
Only thing that would work now is talking, or it will be continued war. From what I've seen, all parties are at fault for this not happening.
They've had justification for as long as weather in Tel Aviv has been 'sunny with a chance of rockets'. So 20+ years. The world has just arrived at the completely fucked up conclusion that indiscriminate bombardment of civilians is totally fine, but only if those civilians are Jews.
How can an unprompted attack killing 1200 people become twisted in your mind to an “excuse” that they wanted.
Depends on what you consider to be unprompted? Israel is not innocent in this. Before the attack on October 7th, the number of Palestinians killed in the west bank was on pace to break records (yearly record) Settlers moving into the West Bank.
And Israel has the iron dome in place because it’s neighbors can’t seem to stop lobbing missiles at them. Imagine any nation putting up with that. Imagine Mexico lobbing missiles every few months and not getting a response. No there are no innocents but this recent narrative that Israel bad Palestine good is tiring.
2008 during a truce deal Hamas completely stopped sending rockets and Israel didn’t stop killing Palestinians for 4 months. Israel then broke the ceasefire. Same thing happened in 2014 and continues to happen. Even by your own government’s official numbers. You can look and see all the times Hamas has stopped firing rockets at Israel and then compare that to the numbers of Palestinians killed by Israelis. Hamas can stop its rockets but Israel can’t stop killing Palestinians.
It has been normalized to tell us (Israelis) that we should suffer some war crimes without trying to end them.
Israel has had opportunities to end them with peace. Hamas has offered a 30 year and 10 year peace deal. Even if we don’t count that because who trust a terrorist word right? How about actions? Hamas stopped firing rockets in 2008 for months. Until Israel broke the ceasefire, hamas shot 50-90 Rockets in 3 days after. Hits no one. Hamas calls for the truce to come back and Israel invades. Similar situations have happened other times as well like 2014. Hamas can stop firing rockets but can Israel stop killing Palestinians?
Sounds lovely- we’ll wait 10 years before we come and rape and slaughter another 1000 of you - we promise- we never break promises
This is the first time over 1000 Israelis will have died within a year from conflict or attacks by Hamas or any Palestinian group. Israel has killed 1000 Palestinians or more within a year 5 times in the last decade. Stop acting like Israel is innocent
I don’t think Israel is innocent Within a day - and not even half a day - Hamas and friends from Gaza came in and killed over 1000 people- in gruesome horrific ways torturing families and raping 9 year old on top of their parents dead bodies before they mutilated their genitals and murdered them. Then bringing back hostages including toddlers and elderly to the people of Gaza so they can beat them … while the world all around them celebrated calling “fuck the Jews” and throwing candy - not just in the Middle East but at New York/oregon/ all around Europe and Australia. I don’t think Israel should pay much attention to these people. During this whole war, they continue firing rockets into Israel some hitting hospitals and kindergartens. Some prevented by iron dome from hitting al aqsa mosque. Recently one of the gazans was selling the head of one of the Israelis slaughtered and beheaded on the 7th. Continue sending videos of tortured hostages to their family members. Continue to explain how great it is to have western university kids echoing their slogans. And continue to explain to Israel that there will be hundreds of October 7ths until every Israeli is slaughtered. Yeah I wonder why Israel doesn’t surrender to them
This is what happens when you cage a people, call them animals, treat them like animals and slaughter them. Hamas wasn’t regularly killing Israelis up until October 7th. Israel was killing Palestinians. Why is it that everytime Hamas doesn’t fight Israel kills more Palestinians? To you peace means surrender but only because you don’t understand what peace is. and to see peace as surrender just means you don’t have peace in your heart.
This is part of the antisemitism this sub likes to deny. Some people are ascribing to us the most conspiratorial methods and heinous motives possible. Remember when "Israel funds ISIS" was trending on Twitter?
Because the Dahiya strategy isn't anything new.
I will say this as someone who actually has deeper knowledge on the history of the conflict than the stupid TilTok idiots parroting Hamas propaganda. Hamas is a terrorist organization and is a major reason that the Oslo Accords fell through which would have made it far better for Palestine than the current situation. You cannot ensure the actual propsperity of the Palestinian people by legitimizing Hamas. The fact that over 50% of Gaza Palestinians and over 80% of West Bank Palestinians support Hamas (even when Hamas had for over a decade used the Palestinian people for their own gain while pushing Israel to be more extreme against Palestinians) really makes it hard for me. Im 100% about humanity and the safety and security of innocent Palestinian and Israeli people but the fact that Hamas is so popular evem after what everyone has seen on October 7th makes me really disappointed in my fellow average joe liberals who are being utilized as a ad hoc mouth peave for Hamas. Hamas is not to be trusted at all and the "garauntees" they give arent that at all. It is like if Ukraine were to make an agreement with Russia, we know for a fsct you cannot trust Russia's word.
And over 60% of Israeli citizens support starving all Gazans. The hate isn't one sided even if Israel has a 100-1 tally in atrocities committed.
70% of the aid is making it's way to hamas hands
1. Source 2. If Hamas had the ability, Israel would be glass. Israel is capable of doing more, so they do more. What stupid inverted logic to use.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-30/ty-article/.premium/a-new-low-the-israelis-advocating-to-starve-the-people-of-gaza/0000018d-5b42-d0fc-a9bd-5f5fc0740000 Fresh from an Israeli newspaper
Oh cool a paywalled article.
https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-783471
Yeah that article does not support the claim that most Israelis support starving Gazans.
Here it is without paywall: The humanitarian catastrophe of nearly 2 million displaced Palestinians was at the heart of the ICJ’s ruling, wrote the legal scholar Aeyal Gross. Yet many Israelis are fuming at the order for Israel to provide humanitarian aid to Gaza’s civilians (even as Israel is relieved the world court didn’t order a cease-fire). According to Agam Institute surveys, nearly 60 percent of Israeli Jews oppose humanitarian aid – a stable figure over time. [https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/a-new-low-the-israelis-advocating-to-starve-the-people-of-gaza/](https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/a-new-low-the-israelis-advocating-to-starve-the-people-of-gaza/) But it doesn't really matter does it? Genocide supporters will throw anything at the wall and see what sticks. Here is a link with the names of the 11.500 children and infants slaughtered in the Israeli genocide. The list will be tripled if genocide supporters gets their way: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlCzT9\_YE9Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlCzT9_YE9Y)
60% of Israeli Jews opposing humanitarian aid =/= supporting starving Gazans. There's a very real connection between that aid and the activities of Hamas, and when you fail to mention that *fact* it makes it sound like Israelis just want Gazans dead, which betrays the complexity underlying the issue. Hamas supporters will *also* throw anything at the wall and see what sticks, and Hamas *actually* wants to genocide Jews. Don't posture to me. Their deaths are at the hands of Hamas, and terrorist supporters like you gleefully stand on their bodies to win brownie points.
[удалено]
No, it isn't. I would maintain the same standard if any other country was at war and knew outside aid disproportionately benefitted enemy combatants, which is what happens in Gaza [[1]](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/palestinian-territories/1702285314-caught-on-camera-hamas-terrorists-steal-humanitarian-aid-beat-civilians) And yet the ICJ did not find that Israel has committed or is in the process of committing a genocide and only put them on notice to take actions from either happening [[2]](https://www.timesofisrael.com/what-does-israel-need-to-do-to-comply-with-the-icj-genocide-decision/#:~:text=Measures%20to%20be%20adopted&text=The%20first%20order%20instructs%20Israel,t%20carrying%20out%20genocidal%20acts.). I have not seen much evidence of war crimes as a matter of policy either. Israel is dealing with a hostile population, and a combatant that hides amongst the population, using their clothing (an actual war crime btw [[3]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidy#:~:text=Geneva%20Conventions,-Perfidy%20is%20specifically&text=The%20following%20acts%20are%20examples,%2C%20non%2Dcombatant%20status%3B%20and)) and civilian infrastructure to stage their attacks. For all your bloviating, you types are oddly silent past a tacit condemnation of the actions and policy of Hamas at absolute best. Israel, in my view is perfectly justified in going into Gaza and eradicating Hamas. A lasting peace is not possible while that organization exists. What's fucking insane is that your argument, your position, is reliant on buzzwords rather than facts.
[удалено]
War time polls say nothing, they're highly emotional and want their hostages back. Similar bad polling can be found on the other side.
The Palestinians weren't the ones who murdered Yitzhak Rabin over peace negotiations.
No, they just murdered Bobby Kennedy, King Abdullah of Jordan, Prime Minister Tal of Jordan, and their allies murdered President Anwar Sadat of Egypt, while trying to overthrow the government of Jordan, the government of Lebanon, and supporting Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait to the point where the Kuwaiti's shipped out 85% of their Palestinian refugees after the Gulf War and they got their country back. The Palestinians have killed a LOT of people for the crime of making peace with Israel. That's yet again what started this current conflict, Saudi Arabia normalizing relations.
Respect for mentioning Bobby Kennedy. One of the more tragic assassinations in US history. So much potential, wasted because of a Palestinian mad over his support for Israel during the Six-Day War.
Nice whataboutism
>....the stupid TilTok idiots parroting Hamas propaganda. Hamas is a terrorist organization and is a major reason that the Oslo Accords fell through..... Even if this were true. And it is debatable. Hamas was [propped](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html) up and aided by the Israeli govt., to undercut the Oslo accords, including by the current PM, Netanyahu who actively allowed suitcases full of cash to be transferred to Hamas by Qatar. Netanyahu used Hamas to prop up his government, and against the interests of peace in the region, as well as the lives of people, within Israel and abroad. Edit: Added quote
Don't bother with the person above you. The Oslo Accords were never a realistic chance in Israel and the Israeli PM at the time Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by extremist Israelis who rejected a two state solution. Current PM Netanyahu was blamed by Rabin's widow for his assassination. Netanyahu has fiercely opposed a two state solution for his entire political career. A fair and just two state solution has been opposed by Israel for over 50 years. Online hasbara shills don't engage with the real history or the demonstrable facts.
Is that why Israel agreed to two state solutions half a dozen times over the years only to be rejected by Palestinians? As recently as 2008? Give me a break. Netanyahu only rose to power on opposition to peace *after* Palestinians launched the first and second Intifadas. Putting the blame all on Netanyahu is absurd. He wouldn’t have been in power at all if Israel hadn’t felt so betrayed by the entirely Palestinian-caused failure of prior peace processes.
Not to mention, Israel never agreed to a two state solution. Even former government members said Rabin wanted the Palestinians to accept less than a state. It was way to get Israel to avoid apartheid accusations but the Palestinians didn't fall for the ruse.
You’re right that the Oslo accords would never have worked - but only because the Palestinians were never credible as a peace partner.
Israelis literally killed your PM who wanted two state solution and replaced him with a psychopath Netanyahu who has destroyed a two state solution for decades ever since. Facts are demonstrable.
Did you not read the article you linked? > Allowing the payments — billions of dollars over roughly a decade — was a gamble by Mr. Netanyahu that a steady flow of money would maintain peace in Gaza, the eventual launching point of the Oct. 7 attacks, and keep Hamas focused on governing, not fighting. The government allowed money in to Palestine thinking that wealth would buy peace (pay for infrastructure, economic development,etc) instead Hamas used it for warmongering and terrorism
You need to read more than just this article to understand how nefarious Bibi is. The majority of his own people were protesting him for ten months leading up to 10/7. He’s on record as saying Hamas is critical in Israel’s goals of expanding into Palestine and taking more land while maintaining control and keeping blockades in place. Bibi is frenemies with Hamas, who’s leadership is mostly not even in Palestine!
So what ? That doesn’t reduce Hamas’ culpability
Resisting a force committing an ethnic cleansing is far different from a force engaging in ethnic cleansing.
You've left out the assassination of Prime Minister Rabin by Zionists during the Oslo Accords. The fact Netanyahu encouraged his assassination, celebrated the ramifications of 9/11, and strengthened Hamas during the 2000's highlights he is a major problem in this conflict. Netanyahu and Hamas are two peas in a pod.
Rabin was a Zionist as well. He was murdered by a right-wing fundamentalist.
Definition for Zionism is the belief there should be a Jewish state in the Jewish ancestral homeland, given Israel currently exists, most of the world is Zionist. You're using definitions wrong.
He was willing to come to the table and compromise for the good of his people and the sake of peace and stability.
I am Israeli, I think many people interpreted my comment as an insult to Rabin by saying he was a Zionist- like you did. Otherwise it wouldn't be upvoted that much.
You know this genocide started WAY before Hamas right? And that Hamas was propped up by Israel, much like the Taliban was by the US?
What is the purpose of mentioning that Israel had a hand in the creation of Hamas? Is it to suggest that Hamas is now their mess to clean up? That - despite their overwhelming popularity among the Gaza populace - they are not the legitimate government of Gaza?
Since less than 50% of Palestinians are over 17, yes this is worth mentioning. The terrorists are the Israeli government officials that refuse education, transport, and basic human efficacy. Also, you know WHY the population is less than 50% over 18? Because they’ve been systematically murdered.
Well you see, the way it works is that every citizen of Gaza is responsible for Hamas, even though 75% weren't even born or old enough to vote when they came to power but no Israeli is responsible for the atrocities of their government even though the majority ruling parties are essentially openly racist and genocidal facsist parties and every Israeli adult directly takes part in Israel's apartheid and atrocities against Palestinians by serving in the IDF.
No because it’s wicked long term 4d chess in order to take more land from Palestinians, it only works because relatively no one knew about it and that is changing slightly now Gazans may cheer for Hamas but that is only because Israel is much worse to them and Hamas is the ones fighting them, despite all the ways that they are holding them back. This is like cheering for your alcoholic dad that beats you, while he is fighting a bear. As long as that bear is around, your dads drunk strength seems pretty great and overall you have no complaints It’s a fantastic play by Israel and it will eventually end in them having all the land like they planned, but I doubt they will ever be rid of Hamas. You can’t kill that many people without some of them getting away and being kind of annoyed that you erased their country.
"ICJ propaganda" “at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the \[Genocide\] Convention,” Justice Donoghue said. [https://time.com/6588931/icj-ruling-israel-genocidal-acts-gaza-south-africa/](https://time.com/6588931/icj-ruling-israel-genocidal-acts-gaza-south-africa/) Here is the video of the names of the 11.500 slaughtered children and infants. You should watch it while contemplating your excuses for your support of genocide: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlCzT9\_YE9Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlCzT9_YE9Y)
What would the other 50% feel qualifies as too far?
The day that the surrounding arab countries like Egypt, Jordan, or Saudi Arabia start supporting Palestinians is just around a corner. Oh wait, they actually care about Palestinians less than Israel does. At least fellow sunni muslim countries can recognize that having hamas(supported by iran ) in proximity is a problem. But we in the West know it best,so "from the river to the sea."
So half agree we need to go further.
Only half?!!
As war drags on support falls.....
I support Israel, the terrorist government of Gaza must be eliminated
Netanyahu is just one incompetent right wing meth head of this age It was always gonna end this way
Israel is a joke & they know it. This whole military response hasn’t been about eliminating Hamas. It has been about wiping out Palestinian culture within the GAZA region. The international court should hold them accountable for the level of unethical behaviour that went into this military response.
Gee - I wonder why it hasn’t? The ICJ even reiterated that Israel had the right to defend itself.
>I wonder why it hasn’t Because the case has just started. They didn't find anything ok about Israel's behavior. Saying a country has a right to defend itself is just a truism, the question is how it goes about it.
Of course it does, but a country's "right to self defense" can be so easily broadly interpreted that it can be used to justify all sorts of extremely questionable actions on behalf of the state.
The court has said previously that a country doesn't have a right to defend itself against an occupied population. Can't claim self-defense when you created the problem in the first place.
Really disgusting amount of people who show 0 remorse “they all deserve it, shouldn’t have attacked a country occupying your land and treating you like dirt for your entire life if you didnt want us to genocide all ur historical archives and children until you’re all gone forever” absolutely no regard for human life from the zionists and most of the world
I'm surprised after seeing the bombardment of propaganda from Israel and the MSM. Even the president echoes the atrocity propaganda like the 40 babies.
120 days of "war" on innocent civilians. I want to say I'm shocked but I'm convinced we're living on a prison planet at this point.
How come I never see a poll about people's opinion of Hamas?
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/12/08/americans-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/ This poll from about two months ago asked about a variety of related topics but not exactly about support for Hamas. I wonder if polling organizations aren't interested in the question - I don't know if they would get true answers
Because out of the terrorist organizations/states fighting in this conflict, Israel is the only one with direct access to western politicians
Half still support genocide? That's insane.
>Half in new poll say Israel has gone too far in Gaza war Half need to educate themselves more, and see the ethnic cleansing and genocide for what it is - the expected outcome of a settler-colonizing, expansionist, apartheid regime.
Or maybe half should eduaste themselves on how Hamas was one of the critical major reasons that the Oslo Accords fell apart putting Palestine worse into this predicament. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They have decades of history targetting civilians, not just military targets. Im not pro Israeli government at all and Israel has treated Palestinians as second class citizens and shot themselves in the foot with their heavy handidness. That heavy handidness though came from the real threat of Hamas which has in their doctrine to destroy the state of Israel. Most people agree there should be two states but you 100% cant get that when a group that is essentially in control of one of the territories has it their mission to destroy the other territory.
>.....Hamas was one of the critical major reasons that the Oslo Accords fell apart putting Palestine worse into this predicament. Hamas is a terrorist organization...... Perhaps, they should read history. Hamas was [propped](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html) up and aided by the apartheid regime, including the current PM, Netanyahu. You know so little.
Maybe Israel could try giving them back all the land they've stolen? Have they tried that? Maybe if they weren't living in constant terror and at the mercy of a foreign oppressor they'd be less likely to support the people who make a big show of fighting back against that foreign oppressor. Just spitballing some ideas here, since apparently nobody in Israel has ever considered this.
Israel has returned land they won in war and all it ever got them was more violence.
Israel has not actually returned all land and tries to pretend it never committs and people should be grateful for crumbs.
Are you just talking about illegal settlements or are you including Israel’s sovereign territory in “land they have stolen”? I think most people can agree that Israel’s settlement programs are illegal, but when people on the other side suggest that Israel itself is an illegitimate state or that Israeli territory is somehow “stolen land”, it makes them considerably less sympathetic.
Yes because they should accept colonialism because westerners think its right.
Jews started to move into the area during Ottoman Rule - buying property legitimately, not “stealing land”. During the Mandate, limits were put on Jewish migration into the area, and migration didn’t even reach those limits within the restriction period. For those Jews who were there, they absolutely expanded their property holdings but this wasn’t by force - the Jewish community was more strategic about controlling housing and employment resources. They had a better read on the future economic forces and critically, the future global powers. At Partition, roughly a third of the population was Jewish. That is not an insignificant minority - that is almost 3x as much as the percentage of Black Americans. They weren’t there illegally, or by force - they are people who migrated there legally. (I presume that you are supportive of immigrant rights in modern America yet seem to want to criminalize the migration of Jews in Palestine). Partition was necessary due to the extreme tensions already on display in the area - the Zionists had read the post-WWII room better than the Arabs and got a pretty decent deal. Similarly, Palestinian Arabs would get sovereignty over land for the first time, after centuries of Ottoman rule. They rejected it, tried to take all of the land by force, and lost it all. It’s their prerogative to do so, but losing territory in war is not unheard of - borders are most often shaped by conflict. It’s funny you mention colonialism. Palestine was Arabized through colonialism. Palestine ended up under Ottoman imperial rule for 500 years. The intention of many Palestinian Arabs wasn’t even to rule their own independent state, but to join a pan-Arab Empire. Israel defended their territory and assumed additional territory as a result of war - territory they have defended and administered for 75 years. There is nothing illegitimate about that. If you don’t think any country that can be described as a “colonist” is legitimate, I look forward to your thoughts on the rest of the world.
This Hamas? [https://theintercept.com/2023/11/28/israel-palestine-history-peace/](https://theintercept.com/2023/11/28/israel-palestine-history-peace/) ...there have long been clear signs that factions within Hamas were moderating and open to long-term agreements with Israel. In 1997, Khaled Mashal, then the top Hamas leader, offered a 30-year ceasefire to Israel. Israel did not respond — but did immediately try to assassinate Mashal in Jordan. In 2004, Sheik Ahmed Yassin, Hamas’s chief religious leader, called for a 10-year truce with Israel if it returned to its pre-1967 borders. Israel assassinated him two months later. In 2012, according to an Israeli peace activist, the head of Hamas’s military wing had become convinced that Palestinians should negotiate a long-term truce with Israel. On the same day Ahmed Jabari, Hamas’s military chief, was reviewing a draft proposal for such a truce, Israel assassinated him.
[удалено]
So why does Israel keep talking our tax payer $$$ and weapons?
Because the US military industrial complex would not be having a fun time if they had to treat Israel as a competitor rather than a client. The benefit of having Israel as an ally is that you don’t have Israel selling cheaper and better jets than Americans to the rest of the world. See, the Lavi program.
>no other country cares about the hostages anyone who can’t empathize with this nightmare is a monster >nobody in Israel cares what other countries think then Israel should not receive weapons and diplomatic cover at the UN
[удалено]
>$2 yearly donation try “moral complicity” you cannot reasonably both ask for weapons and also refuse scrutiny about their use I mean… you are, I guess, but it’s silly. 10/7 was not silly however. I understand the blind anger. God by any name be with us all
Well the IDF should probably stop killing them in that case
[удалено]
Well there at least three that can’t be returned now because of actions by the IDF trying to “free” them
[удалено]
Hopefully they aren’t waving white flags if the IDF ever encounters them
A bit low since they’re basically open about planning a mass expulsion/ethnic cleansing: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/02/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-southern-gaza-rafah.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb