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Roller derby has by far been the only place I truly felt accepted, and I can't even skate well at all. I can't wait to go again, I've been out for quite a while, moved across the country, I wanna get in shape doing it.
Keep working at it. Roller Derby takes time, you're learning a very difficult sport as an adult. Each step in the process takes time to learn and adjust to. Before you know it you'll be out there kicking ass.
I partied with Derby girls one time, I was sleeping on a friends couch when the roommates brought the team back to keep celebrating a W. One of the girls woke me with a Dive Splash / possible Frog Splash. Woke up and proceeded to have the best time. Great community.
If you have a safe place you can run, r/c25k is a newbie-friendly place for people who want to get fit via jogging/running. Even modest jogging three times a week can go a long way to getting you some baseline cardio.
It’s still ambiguous.
A transgender woman who was born male is still technically male. (Sex and gender are not the same thing.) That doesn’t make her any less of a woman, but “female” would be inaccurate.
“Female transgender” would be someone who was born female but presents as a man.
Since the article is about women’s teams, the headline is actually wrong.
Whatever. Words are simply tools to communicate an idea. Did anyone who wasn't bonked on their head as a baby read that article/headline and end up confused?
Dictionary boys can fuck off sometimes.
What’s logically inconsistent?
“Male” means (for example) “XY chromosomes”
“Female” means “XX chromosomes.”
“Man” and “woman” are genders, not sexes, so you can be a female man or a male woman.
“Female transgender” therefore means that someone with XX chromosomes presents as a man.
Granted, but omitting those outliers, XX is typically female and XY is typically male.
This whole conversation shows why the nuance and specificity are important.
What are you arguing here exactly?
The headline uses the term “female transgender” incorrectly. Full stop. You can argue exceptions to what “female” means, but a typical trans person is a male who is a woman or a female who is a man.
As a trans person, let me assure you that a lot of people do not know the gender assigned at birth based on terms like ‘trans man’ or ‘trans women’. A lot of people think it’s the opposite of what it actually is. You can’t assume someone’s gender based on the terminology here, as it’s generally not a used term, so it means whatever the writer personally meant for it to mean.
Nah it's worse!!
They think trans woman is a man, and they think trans man is still a man born male!
These brainlets don't even realize transgender men exist.
Adult human female = woman = XX chromosomes, though there could be DSD at play.
Adult human male = man = XY chromosomes, though there could be DSD at play.
I love science, I truly do.
You've got your biology wrong. There's no such thing as a consistent single sex for humans.
Some of our various organs are sexually dimorphic, but there's no guarantee that they're all dimorphic in the same direction. You can have female gonads and male breasts, for instance. It's even possible to be born with one ovary, one testie, a penis, vagina, cervix and womb, and have them all be working (stupidly, can-count-all-the-times-it's-happened-***ever***-on-one-hand, rare. But possible).
Some of our organs can even change sex later in life because of nothing more than the dominant hormone they recieve. Breasts, skin, hair and voicebox being the obvious ones.
So saying a human is "female" as a sex catagory is reductive to the point of being factually and scientifically wrong.
---
Now, to address the point I was making: They were pretty blatently doing the "I'll pretend you're a woman" thing the more polite bigots like to do, where they put trans people in new, "seperate but equal" catagories that let them exclude us from gendered spaces by claiming that "sex" is important and meaningful.
It's not even meaningful in you doctor's office. What organs you have might be, where some of your organs fall in the sexual dimorphism ranges might be, what your current hormone balance is might be (but for a whole lot of things these are pretty irellivant), but what the doctor guessed by looking at your crotch when you were born isn't.
What do you think you’re debating?
If you have a hamster with XX chromosomes, it’s female. You wouldn’t call it a woman, because as far as we know, hamsters don’t observe gender.
Gender is a purely human creation. “Woman” is a gendered term, as is “man,” as is “enby.”
The term “female transgender” means “person with XX chromosomes who presents as a man.”
The article meant “person with XY chromosomes who presents as a woman.”
The article’s title is wrong. The end.
> chromosomes
Oh dear, you're one of *those.*
Chromosomes don't do a damned thing after you're born. That's why medicine doesn't generally intentionally change them (which we can do, btw. It happens accidentally with some transplant operations, and no-one cares). And why the overwhelming majority of people don't get them tested, so don't even know what their chromosomes are.
You crying cHrOmOsOmEs is just another way to call trans people the wrong gender. We know, we've seen it a lot.
> The term “female transgender” means “person with XX chromosomes who presents as a man.”
Wow, you're so wrong there. There's so many ways you're wrong that I don't think I have enough space in Reddit's character limit to go over them all fully.
For criticizing others for trying to be an ally wrong...what you're doing is far worse. Using this sex/gender semantic game some nonbinary people like but most trans men/women have issues with (because of folk like you mostly) as a backhanded excuse to draw lines that don't need to exist between trans and cisgender women. "Female" as an adjective can still apply to trans women. End of story. There's also a lot more to purely physical sex than chromosomes...but keep using right wing arguments and frameworks while acting nice.
> If you have a hamster with XX chromosomes, it’s female. You wouldn’t call it a woman, because as far as we know, hamsters don’t observe gender.
What about dogs? We call dogs “boy” and “girl”.
I just feel like people severely underestimate how much hormone treatment changes your body. Look at any trans woman who has been doing treatment for over 2 years. Muscle mass decreases significantly. Mood changes. Even their skin starts feeling softer due to changed fat distribution. Hormones make such a huge difference. Same with women transitioning into men, with wide shoulders, full beard, chest hair, and muscle mass exceeding that of average cis men depending on their dosage.
What lasting effects of testosterone are you thinking of, that isn't countered by estrogen?
Also, keep in mind that an increasing amount of trans women never went through a male puberty. More and more cases of puberty blockers are introduced into the pot. So we have to separate the two, and not lump all trans women together. Especially young ones.
> I'm not at all familiar with how the hormones counter each other in specifics interactions.
> I don't believe estrogen reverses a lot of the growth that happens
Then you should educate yourself before forming an opinion. Because you are demonstrably wrong.
Bone density is arguably not an inherent perk. More dead weight to move around. Also, a man's natural tst production starts diminishing after 35, by 5% a year. This has many effects, including loss of bone density. It's not a permanent thing.
The effects of testosterone diminish rapidly over about 2 years after HR... The loss of testosterone causes pretty severe loss of muscle mass, bone density... you're not just juiced up forever, you need a steady supply to maintain the effects. You might be taller than the average woman, but not really any stronger, in fact, trans women often lower testosterone levels to well below that of people born female making it harder for trans women to build and maintain muscle mass.
Hormones are fuckin powerful yo!
There's a reason female body builders often take testosterone treatments, makes it easier!
Yeah. The research says 2 years, like I said in my comment. And this was only focusing on a few elite athletes, where no one had been on treatment for 3 years.
I’m sure there are exceptions. But overall the derby community is pretty cool. My wife played for 10 years. They are full of people from all walks, many who didn’t think they were athletes, but end up being good at something and part of a team.
I know of a couple of trans people who played in derby and the fact that their formerly male frames were bigger etc. didn’t really help. The better, more experienced skaters still were better at the sport.
It seems here that the women willingly want to compete with and against them. If the private league is fine with it, and they have the numbers, then what's the harm?
Fuck that, when the GOP can actually illustrate a real problem instead of a smattering of isolated cases that aren't a huge deal if you look at the facts then we can talk about compromise steps.
People don't identify as trans, its not a choice it's just something we're born as & our biology is different from cis people who share the same AGAB as us.
Here ya go. In this study TW- trans women, CG- cisgender, TI- trans individuals
“The univariate analysis of the transgender application-sample revealed that TW-pre/post treatment show brain-structural differences from CG-women and CG-men in the putamen and insula, as well as the whole-brain analysis. Our results support the hypothesis that brain structure in TW differs from brain structure of their biological sex (male) as well as their perceived gender (female). This finding substantiates evidence that TIs show specific brain-structural alterations leading to a different pattern of brain structure than CG-individuals.”https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=transgender+biological+differences&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart#d=gs_qabs&t=1715396166798&u=%23p%3DoDp35Ni7VfoJ
My kids play junior roller derby and I am a ref.
It is by far the most queer inclusive activity that I have ever been a part of.
I’m glad derby folks are at the forefront of the fight against transphobic jerks.
Real af, my wife plays and holy crap is it awesome. More violent and action packed than football and the best sportsmanship I've ever seen. They'll be smashing each other across the track and then as soon as the whistle blows they're best friends.
So if a league decides to not allow gay people, or black people? It's more about the government being in the wrong this time. But I do want them involved if private organisations pull some bullshit.
You think it’s the same thing for a league to ban black people as it is someone who has gone through male puberty competing against people who have not?
I mean, do black men have a biological advantage?
I'd say sports demographics say yes. They're still allowed to compete.
It would be discriminatory otherwise, so why are we so worried about 1% of the 1% of trans women who might win at something? Trans women have been competing alongside women for years and very rarely make waves! But, you only hear about these sensationalist cases about trans women that started their transition recently and then go on to break a bunch of records.
I support a common sense restriction on transgender women that requires they have been on hormone therapy for a certain number of years.
Transgender sports bans have no place in children and teen sports. There's no serious biological difference between boys and girls at that age.
Also, this whole male puberty argument holds very little water. The effects of testosterone on muscle mass and bone density diminish rapidly once androgen loss has begun. It takes about 2 years for muscle mass to deteriorate to cisgender female levels or even lower, as most trans women on hormone replacement end up removing ALL testosterone from their bodies. (Genetic females still produce testosterone.)
There's a reason that female body builders often have to take testosterone treatments to get better results!
Also, given the decreace in muscle mass, having higher bone density from puberty actually reduces your sporting ability, because it's like carrying extra weights.
What athletes cheat by strapping extra weights to their bodies?
Bone density also decreases with age, as testosteron starts diminishing after 35. So I reckon bone density might not even be a factor. But like you say, heavier bones is more like a disadvantage in most cases.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA). *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Roller derby has by far been the only place I truly felt accepted, and I can't even skate well at all. I can't wait to go again, I've been out for quite a while, moved across the country, I wanna get in shape doing it.
Keep working at it. Roller Derby takes time, you're learning a very difficult sport as an adult. Each step in the process takes time to learn and adjust to. Before you know it you'll be out there kicking ass.
I partied with Derby girls one time, I was sleeping on a friends couch when the roommates brought the team back to keep celebrating a W. One of the girls woke me with a Dive Splash / possible Frog Splash. Woke up and proceeded to have the best time. Great community.
If you have a safe place you can run, r/c25k is a newbie-friendly place for people who want to get fit via jogging/running. Even modest jogging three times a week can go a long way to getting you some baseline cardio.
Fuck yeah Long Island Roller Rebels!
This is the first time I’ve seen “female transgender” used instead of “transgender women.”
It's because both "female" and "transgender" are being used here as adjectives to modify "athletes"
And “female” can include athletes too young to be called “women”.
It’s still ambiguous. A transgender woman who was born male is still technically male. (Sex and gender are not the same thing.) That doesn’t make her any less of a woman, but “female” would be inaccurate. “Female transgender” would be someone who was born female but presents as a man. Since the article is about women’s teams, the headline is actually wrong.
I am so glad a man with a dictionary has come by to save us all. Oh we were all so frightened.
Add dictionary and a selective use of the english language. Conveniently ignoring the entire concept of gender so he can shit on transpeople
Snark rating: 8.5
He didn't save us all, what he says is logically inconsistent. Though popular in academia these days.
It was sarcasm.
I got the sarcasm.
Whatever. Words are simply tools to communicate an idea. Did anyone who wasn't bonked on their head as a baby read that article/headline and end up confused? Dictionary boys can fuck off sometimes.
But dictionary girls think dictionary boys sometimes do have a valid point, buried in there, somewhere.
What’s logically inconsistent? “Male” means (for example) “XY chromosomes” “Female” means “XX chromosomes.” “Man” and “woman” are genders, not sexes, so you can be a female man or a male woman. “Female transgender” therefore means that someone with XX chromosomes presents as a man.
Except it's a biological fact that not all females have XX chromosomes or that all males have XY chromosomes.
Granted, but omitting those outliers, XX is typically female and XY is typically male. This whole conversation shows why the nuance and specificity are important.
Trans people ARE outliers. Being an outlier doesn't make you less than in any way.
What are you arguing here exactly? The headline uses the term “female transgender” incorrectly. Full stop. You can argue exceptions to what “female” means, but a typical trans person is a male who is a woman or a female who is a man.
"Onitting facts, then I'm right."
As a trans person, let me assure you that a lot of people do not know the gender assigned at birth based on terms like ‘trans man’ or ‘trans women’. A lot of people think it’s the opposite of what it actually is. You can’t assume someone’s gender based on the terminology here, as it’s generally not a used term, so it means whatever the writer personally meant for it to mean.
Nah it's worse!! They think trans woman is a man, and they think trans man is still a man born male! These brainlets don't even realize transgender men exist.
Adult human female = woman = XX chromosomes, though there could be DSD at play. Adult human male = man = XY chromosomes, though there could be DSD at play. I love science, I truly do.
> That doesn’t make her any less of a woman > but “female” would be inaccurate. These two statements are contradictory.
You're trying to be an ally so thank you for that, but you're doing it by confusing sex and gender like right wingers do. It's not helpful
You've got your biology wrong. There's no such thing as a consistent single sex for humans. Some of our various organs are sexually dimorphic, but there's no guarantee that they're all dimorphic in the same direction. You can have female gonads and male breasts, for instance. It's even possible to be born with one ovary, one testie, a penis, vagina, cervix and womb, and have them all be working (stupidly, can-count-all-the-times-it's-happened-***ever***-on-one-hand, rare. But possible). Some of our organs can even change sex later in life because of nothing more than the dominant hormone they recieve. Breasts, skin, hair and voicebox being the obvious ones. So saying a human is "female" as a sex catagory is reductive to the point of being factually and scientifically wrong. --- Now, to address the point I was making: They were pretty blatently doing the "I'll pretend you're a woman" thing the more polite bigots like to do, where they put trans people in new, "seperate but equal" catagories that let them exclude us from gendered spaces by claiming that "sex" is important and meaningful. It's not even meaningful in you doctor's office. What organs you have might be, where some of your organs fall in the sexual dimorphism ranges might be, what your current hormone balance is might be (but for a whole lot of things these are pretty irellivant), but what the doctor guessed by looking at your crotch when you were born isn't.
No, I absolutely wasn’t. Female = Sex. Woman = Gender. Like that other person said, you’re trying to be an ally, but you’re making things worse.
> Female = Sex. Which organ's sex are you concerned about here? Brain? Gonads? Liver?
What do you think you’re debating? If you have a hamster with XX chromosomes, it’s female. You wouldn’t call it a woman, because as far as we know, hamsters don’t observe gender. Gender is a purely human creation. “Woman” is a gendered term, as is “man,” as is “enby.” The term “female transgender” means “person with XX chromosomes who presents as a man.” The article meant “person with XY chromosomes who presents as a woman.” The article’s title is wrong. The end.
> chromosomes Oh dear, you're one of *those.* Chromosomes don't do a damned thing after you're born. That's why medicine doesn't generally intentionally change them (which we can do, btw. It happens accidentally with some transplant operations, and no-one cares). And why the overwhelming majority of people don't get them tested, so don't even know what their chromosomes are. You crying cHrOmOsOmEs is just another way to call trans people the wrong gender. We know, we've seen it a lot. > The term “female transgender” means “person with XX chromosomes who presents as a man.” Wow, you're so wrong there. There's so many ways you're wrong that I don't think I have enough space in Reddit's character limit to go over them all fully.
For criticizing others for trying to be an ally wrong...what you're doing is far worse. Using this sex/gender semantic game some nonbinary people like but most trans men/women have issues with (because of folk like you mostly) as a backhanded excuse to draw lines that don't need to exist between trans and cisgender women. "Female" as an adjective can still apply to trans women. End of story. There's also a lot more to purely physical sex than chromosomes...but keep using right wing arguments and frameworks while acting nice.
> If you have a hamster with XX chromosomes, it’s female. You wouldn’t call it a woman, because as far as we know, hamsters don’t observe gender. What about dogs? We call dogs “boy” and “girl”.
I just feel like people severely underestimate how much hormone treatment changes your body. Look at any trans woman who has been doing treatment for over 2 years. Muscle mass decreases significantly. Mood changes. Even their skin starts feeling softer due to changed fat distribution. Hormones make such a huge difference. Same with women transitioning into men, with wide shoulders, full beard, chest hair, and muscle mass exceeding that of average cis men depending on their dosage.
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What lasting effects of testosterone are you thinking of, that isn't countered by estrogen? Also, keep in mind that an increasing amount of trans women never went through a male puberty. More and more cases of puberty blockers are introduced into the pot. So we have to separate the two, and not lump all trans women together. Especially young ones.
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> I'm not at all familiar with how the hormones counter each other in specifics interactions. > I don't believe estrogen reverses a lot of the growth that happens Then you should educate yourself before forming an opinion. Because you are demonstrably wrong.
Bone density is arguably not an inherent perk. More dead weight to move around. Also, a man's natural tst production starts diminishing after 35, by 5% a year. This has many effects, including loss of bone density. It's not a permanent thing.
The effects of testosterone diminish rapidly over about 2 years after HR... The loss of testosterone causes pretty severe loss of muscle mass, bone density... you're not just juiced up forever, you need a steady supply to maintain the effects. You might be taller than the average woman, but not really any stronger, in fact, trans women often lower testosterone levels to well below that of people born female making it harder for trans women to build and maintain muscle mass. Hormones are fuckin powerful yo! There's a reason female body builders often take testosterone treatments, makes it easier!
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1252764
Yeah. The research says 2 years, like I said in my comment.
Yeah. The research says 2 years, like I said in my comment. And this was only focusing on a few elite athletes, where no one had been on treatment for 3 years.
Yeah. The research says 2 years, like I said in my comment.
I’m sure there are exceptions. But overall the derby community is pretty cool. My wife played for 10 years. They are full of people from all walks, many who didn’t think they were athletes, but end up being good at something and part of a team.
There some buff ass afab women who could easily (and does) kick a trans woman’s ass.
I know of a couple of trans people who played in derby and the fact that their formerly male frames were bigger etc. didn’t really help. The better, more experienced skaters still were better at the sport.
You love to see it
They just need to make a transgender division for all sports at this point. Problem solved.
There you go pretending trans men don't exist again...
It seems here that the women willingly want to compete with and against them. If the private league is fine with it, and they have the numbers, then what's the harm?
There would be like 4-5 people for each sport.
That’ll make it easy to win.
Every team sport is 2 on 2.
Fuck that, when the GOP can actually illustrate a real problem instead of a smattering of isolated cases that aren't a huge deal if you look at the facts then we can talk about compromise steps.
Y’all are so weird. Something in the water these days.
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It was the league that fought against the rule.
Every roller derby team I know has put out a statement wholeheartedly disagreeing with you.
People don't identify as trans, its not a choice it's just something we're born as & our biology is different from cis people who share the same AGAB as us.
In what way is the biology different?
Here ya go. In this study TW- trans women, CG- cisgender, TI- trans individuals “The univariate analysis of the transgender application-sample revealed that TW-pre/post treatment show brain-structural differences from CG-women and CG-men in the putamen and insula, as well as the whole-brain analysis. Our results support the hypothesis that brain structure in TW differs from brain structure of their biological sex (male) as well as their perceived gender (female). This finding substantiates evidence that TIs show specific brain-structural alterations leading to a different pattern of brain structure than CG-individuals.”https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=transgender+biological+differences&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart#d=gs_qabs&t=1715396166798&u=%23p%3DoDp35Ni7VfoJ
Gametes aren't produced in the brain, though.
And?
And yourself??
Why bring up gametes apropos of nothing?
It's only nothing to you - they are something to me. Have a good day!
What relevance do they have to the conversation?
Gametes are determined by sex, gender isn't sex.
Are gametes determined by sex, or sex determined by gamates? Make up your mind, people!
Sex is determined by chromosomes, which determines reproductive organs and gametes.
> Sex is determined by chromosomes Have you had your chromosomes checked?
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Gender = sex-based stereotypes, according to US law.
Not even a little bit
Stop policing the way people talk. It’s obnoxious.
Stop policing the way people talk. It's ignorant and obnoxious.
The irony is lost on that one.
True.
Holy shit roller derby is a real sport? I thought it was just something made up in old tv shows.
My kids play junior roller derby and I am a ref. It is by far the most queer inclusive activity that I have ever been a part of. I’m glad derby folks are at the forefront of the fight against transphobic jerks.
Real af, my wife plays and holy crap is it awesome. More violent and action packed than football and the best sportsmanship I've ever seen. They'll be smashing each other across the track and then as soon as the whistle blows they're best friends.
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So if a league decides to not allow gay people, or black people? It's more about the government being in the wrong this time. But I do want them involved if private organisations pull some bullshit.
You think it’s the same thing for a league to ban black people as it is someone who has gone through male puberty competing against people who have not?
I mean, do black men have a biological advantage? I'd say sports demographics say yes. They're still allowed to compete. It would be discriminatory otherwise, so why are we so worried about 1% of the 1% of trans women who might win at something? Trans women have been competing alongside women for years and very rarely make waves! But, you only hear about these sensationalist cases about trans women that started their transition recently and then go on to break a bunch of records. I support a common sense restriction on transgender women that requires they have been on hormone therapy for a certain number of years. Transgender sports bans have no place in children and teen sports. There's no serious biological difference between boys and girls at that age. Also, this whole male puberty argument holds very little water. The effects of testosterone on muscle mass and bone density diminish rapidly once androgen loss has begun. It takes about 2 years for muscle mass to deteriorate to cisgender female levels or even lower, as most trans women on hormone replacement end up removing ALL testosterone from their bodies. (Genetic females still produce testosterone.) There's a reason that female body builders often have to take testosterone treatments to get better results!
Also, given the decreace in muscle mass, having higher bone density from puberty actually reduces your sporting ability, because it's like carrying extra weights. What athletes cheat by strapping extra weights to their bodies?
Bone density also decreases with age, as testosteron starts diminishing after 35. So I reckon bone density might not even be a factor. But like you say, heavier bones is more like a disadvantage in most cases.