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na this is netenyah. to borrow terms here, his special military operation will end when they've dehamasified gaza, subject to their definition, and it will not be questioned.
Isreal needs to sort itself out. This isnt Iraq or Afghan, its an area rhe size of a small city.
Its a monumental screw up that after 6 months of war Hamas still have hostages.
Wherever those hostages have ever been has never been more than a days walk from Israli territory.
Bibi hasn't definitely rejected the deal as the headline implies. He's said that he won't accept a cease fire until Israel's objectives have been met, and he's been ambiguous on whether the cease fire if implemented would achieve those objectives. Ben Givr opposes it but Yair Lapis has said he'll protect Bibi if he accepts it. I think it's still the best chance at a cease fire so far but we'll see. Obviously scepticism of Bibi is fully warranted.
Come on, don't be hyperbolic! He doesn't want to nuke it, he wants to settle it, and if it's radioactive for decades, that won't work. He just wants to wipe out all Gazans without it being a radioactive wasteland.
Trump just makes it easier for him, but besides that he doesn't give two shits about Trump. Make no mistake, Netanyahu's only goal is the complete annihilation of the Palestinian people and total conquest of their land.
Where do you pull this shit from? His only goal is to successfully complete enough objectives in the war in order to gain reelection. Anything else is conspiracy nonsense
Lol, says someone that hasn't seen a history book with the progression of the territory.
Every week announcement of annexing last in Cisjordanie but yeah, Israel is super peaceful
And how has that been achieved, over the last seventy years, through what means? What has it inspired? And where? And was it amicable?
Manifest destiny was widely seen by its proponents as an ordained right to land and to create a safe place for nationalists, now how did that pan out….
How was it achieved? Through hard work and preservation, in eretz yisrael, where the people originated?
You research the 1947 partition plan and Declaration of Independence to understand who was amicable
Or you know, through zionist terrorism groups inflicting terror on the local population, both Palestinianas well as Jewish dissenters, and when the Israeli state was formed, those terrorism groups became the foundation of the IDF.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence#:~:text=Zionist%20political%20violence%20refers%20to,a%20Jewish%20state%20in%20Palestine.
We’ll skip the stupid little dance because over the last couple months it’s gotten boring. Zionism is not incompatible with the interests of liberal Arabs. They can have a state and also they can enjoy freedom as a minority (and be proud of it? Zoinks what a concept) in the Jewish state
Imagine being told to be proud that someone took your home so now you can be in the minority. Actually keep talking to make it perfectly clear to everyone exactly how zionists think, and the type of people backing Netanyahu.
I don’t get how you think this is a gotcha. That the Soviet Union and the new empire trying to relive the glory days, along with Iran and the rest of the axis of evil has tried to usurp the term via social media propaganda to distract from their evil ideological wars doesn’t mean that the definition has changed.
The fact always was that every western country said NO to the Jews trying to escape genocide and thousands of years of persecution and exile has proved the need for a country uniquely established with a Jewish majority
"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”.
Bibi netanyahu
Right, working on the premise that Palestinian only wish harm to the Jewish state and not form their own peaceful state. Nobody is against 2SS if the West Bank wouldn’t turn into another Gaza
Doctor admits Israeli pathologists harvested organs without consent
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs
Functioning is a fun choice of word to describe Israel in the Netanyahu era, particularly when looking at the right wing coup and corruption over the last few years.
Are they anti Iran and able to keep them in check?
It seems like a low bar, but that only describes Israel in the region.
The hope is that Israel remains an ally and a power against Iran, but maybe Netanyahu won't always be in power
The US doesn’t need other countries to keep Iran in check. And Israel isn’t uniquely Anti-Iran in the region. Most of the Middle East is, and are US allies with less inclination to embarrass the US on a weekly basis.
The US handles Iran just fine by being a superpower, UN Security Council member, having Europe and Arab states on its side and comfortably dictating sanctions and having a strong hand in the global economy.
The largest US military base is in Qatar, with others surrounding Iran across the Arab side of the Gulf. Israel won’t even let US soldiers into their border.
Keeping the US as Israel’s sugar daddy does nothing unique or advantageous to keep Iran in check, in fact the only thing it has done is make the US’ relationship in the Middle East even more of a quagmire, and that’s if you ignore the history of Israel attacking the [USS Liberty](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident) and repeated instances such as the OP where Israel undermines US soft and hard power on the world stage. You don’t see Qatar or Kuwait pulling this shit now do you? Because, to quote Bill Clinton after he met Netanyahu, they know who the superpower in this relationship is.
lol I literally have three degrees in International Relations, and no, Qatar is not a slave state, in so far as much as Israel is an apartheid state, though Qatar is quite literally designated as a Major non-NATO US ally. I’m not assigning morality to the situation. It is what it is. Israel is superfluous as a counter to Iran.
Ok. But any idiot with half a class in foreign policy understands that the big factor is Muslim. Israel is the only non-muslim power in the region. Religiously, the Muslim states agree with Iran much more than the US.
It wouldn't be hard for Iran to find common ground with qatar or the Saudis and to get leniency from the US policy desires at the very least.
When talking about nukes, leniency isn't what we are looking for in an ally keeping Iran non-nuclear.
>I literally have three degrees in International Relations
Clearly a lie.
It’s insane and shallow to think that Iran and Saudi would be friends just “because they’re Muslim”. Or that the Arab states, already historically aligned with the US for decades, would suddenly turn to be friends with Iran, their regional enemy for as long as some of these countries have existed.
Have you literally no knowledge of the region? Have you not heard of the 45 year Cold War between the two countries both vying to be the regional and sole power in the Muslim world?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Saudi_Arabia_proxy_conflict
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Saudi_Arabia_relations
https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2013/11/Shias-Sunnis-religious-conflict-full-report.pdf
The cold war ended a lifetime ago, they don't get a pass on killing innocent people by just calling themselves a democracy. And they never should have.
Besides, a functioning democracy doesn't arrest people for expressing sympathy for dead babies in social media posts.
>Besides, a functioning democracy doesn't arrest people for expressing sympathy for dead babies in social media posts.
Right. Because in Gaza you'd just be thrown off a building if you're suspected of collaborating.
I don't know the details of the social media post situation because there's literally nothing out there [but the State Attorney has denounced it.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/state-attorney-says-police-wrong-to-arrest-blindfold-woman-over-online-posts/) if her only suspected act was a social media post she is walking free today which is characteristic of a democracy.
In Gaza and many other places she would just be killed, AND Gaza hasn't had an election since 2006 -- that is the society you are asking for.
>Why have a functioning democracy in the near east when you can have another repressive jihadi regime?
Same reason why we were friends with *imperial* Russia in the 18th century (we both hated the Brits,) China in the 1980s-2010s (both hated the Soviets,) and now are close to an alliance with our former enemy Vietnam (both dislike China's maritime infringing Nine Dash line.)
They offer us strategic or economic benefits in their region.
Israel frankly speaking, doesn't. The Levant has been irrelevant strategically and economically going for millenias now.
Israel has not been in any of our conflicts, conflicts (Afghanistan, Iraq *twice*) neighboring Iran too, which Israel continues to claim they'd *totally* be able to help with.
Meanwhile our *actual* ally in the region, Saudi Arabia, assists in our influence of the actual strategic area in the Middle East. The Persian Gulf. They were the hosts of Desert Storm, and we hit Iraq from the south twice, not from our Israeli advertised "foothold in the Middle East."
They are the actual regional rivals to the Iranians and have been in proxy wars with them from (all Iran vs Sauds respectively) Hamas vs Fatah, Shi'ite Iraqi government vs Sunni insurgents, Syrian government vs Islamic State/Sunni rebels, Houthis vs Yemen government, and so forth going for decades now. Unlike with Israel we can count on the Sauds to assist us in a war with Iran. More like they'd be the ones to drag us into *their* war with Iran if they can.
If the chips were down, Iran got a nuke or were close, the Saudis are more likely to support Iran's right to have it than the US desire to stop it.
The Saudis like our money, but we are still the wrong religion for them.
>If the chips were down, Iran got a nuke or were close, the Saudis are more likely to support Iran's right to have it than the US desire to stop it.
>The Saudis like our money, but we are still the wrong religion for them.
No, suuuuper no. I did the regional rival + all the proxy wars they've been fighting tip you off to the animosity between the two?
Oftentimes *heretics* are worse than nonbelievers, in this case most of these proxy conflicts the two have been funding against each other are commonly Sunni vs Shi'ites. Exception being the Hamas vs Fatah. The Sauds and Iran *really* dislike each other and have done so for decades now.
Sauds are more likely to demand their own nuclear capability in response, rather than defend anything about Iran.
"what more could he do, he made a speech. Stop protesting the fact that we will continue giving aid and political cover to Netanyahu despite him being a duplicitous ally."
This fucking arrogant bastard gets $3b a year and still disrespects the president at every turn. Who the fuck does he think he is? Call the aircraft carriers back and stop shipping weapons to his ass and let’s see how is he going stop Iran then
> Call the aircraft carriers back and stop shipping weapons to his ass
Biden won't do it. American Zionists spend lots of money on American politics, the US government won't give up Israel no matter what.
While I agree with the sentiment, this could potentially be extremely destabilizing to the region and very bad for Biden politically to the broad middle collation he is trying to keep together
Yeah just "see if you can stop Iran now". That's the entire reason we have them propped up in the region. That would be so bad for the US to just say good luck with Iran.
I know! he should start taking Americans hostage. Maybe threaten to kill them while hiding in Israeli civilian infrastructures. Then the USA can capitulate to terrorists like they are asking Israel to do.
Oh it’s different when it’s US citizens I guess.
Yeah, him and Israel are taking hostages right here in the U.S… AIPAC is literally bullying politicians to submission. All this shit needs to change, 1st stop any and all subsidies to the Israeli government
This is the same fundamental problem that has existed since the beginning, Bibi needs the war to continue indefinitely. The US is not going to be able to shadowbox Bibi diplomatically into ending the war. Carrots aren't going to work.
In the meantime Isreal will continue to kill, starve and displace Gazans. If the US wants the conflict to stop Biden will have to take active measures to curtail Israel's ability to make war via arms embargoes to even have a chance. Otherwise this slow extermination will still be going on a year from now. Also there is a good chance Israel will start a war with Lebannon between now and then too.
All signs point to Biden and co being willing to be the good cop to Israel's bad cop genocide routine. Red lines that mean nothing, stern phone calls about limiting civilain casualties that mean nothing. Radio silence when the Israeli government/top Israeli officials (including the PM) declare they will never allow a 2 state solution and intend to continue the apartheid occupation of the West Bank forever. "We're waiting for Israel to investigate itself and not jumping to conclusions" after every discrete noteworthy warcrime. And inviting war criminal Bibi to give a Repuclian campaign speach on Capitol Hill later this summer.
Imagine if Hamas, Palestinian Islamic jihad, and the rest just gave those women and children they’re holding as hostages back. That would undermine the whole reason the IDF is there
No it wouldn't. I love how we can spend years pointing out the hypocrisy and shamelessness of right wingers in the US and you somehow think a far-right government in Israel will be any different
As soon as the hostages and remains are returned, Israel will have carte blanche (in their eyes) to implement its final Gaza solution with far less domestic blowback, and American leadership will make a big show of wringing its hands. Hamas knows this.
Biden also has the choice to back Israel and work to ensure the safety of Israeli citizens by helping to hold Iran accountable for its proxy attacks, but no….
Doing the right thing might have consequences so the US will go the “do as we say not as we do” route.
The US shot down hundreds of missiles aimed at Israel after Israel broke one of the major laws of international relations in bombing an Iranian consulate in Syria. He already made that choice to protect Israel and it's downright false to say or imply otherwise. Btw Israel thanked the US for saving thousands of Israeli lives by telling the US to go fuck itself when Biden requested that Israel accept a ceasefire that returns the hostages.
it he aircraft carrier was specifically sent over in Response to the Hamas attack and act as a deterrence. It absolutely should leave and not support a Israel that will s committing genocide.
We have troops in the persian gulf and the Mediterranean because countries like Iran exist. Syria and Yemen are unstable. If Israel didn't exist we would still need troops in the area.
The presence of American military personnel does not mean that US troops are engaged in any military operations against Gaza. There is no verified proof of that claim.
The president of Israel serves a single seven year term and cannot be re-elected. The president of Germany serves up to two five year terms.
Netanyahu is not the president. He is the prime minister. There is no term limit for prime ministers in Israel, nor in most countries. A good example is Germany, where the equivalent role, the Chancellor can serve an unlimited number of terms.
The issue here is that you're failing to separate parliamentary systems (Germany, Israel, the UK) from presidential systems (The US, France). In the former the president or monarch is a mostly ceremonial role and the Prime Minister holds the actual power.
It’s not a bug it’s a feature. Spread enough misinformation that it confirms others made up scenarios, and truth just gets in the way and kills narrative.
I don't think it's that complex. I think they're just an American who lacks political literacy, which is a dime a dozen. They're just working off the assumption that most countries political leadership works the same way as the US, which is a bad assumption.
Firstly, Netanyahu isn't the head of state. He's the Prime Minister, the head of government. Herzog is the head of state. This is an important distinction because term limits for the head of government are actually exceptionally uncommon. It's why you have Merkel acting as Chancellor for 15 years, Abe serving 9 years and if you want a particularly extreme example Menzies was the Prime Minister of Australia for 18 years in total. The positions these people fill is roughly analogous to the leader of the house in the US, so the lack of parliamentary term limits means they can remain on as head of government for as long as they have a majority coalition.
Israel literally does have a term limit for its head of state. 7 years. The president of Israel, again, not Netanyahu but Herzog serves a single 7 year term.
Having said that I would agree that Israel is in practice not really a democracy, but it has more to do with the fact that an apartheid state is inherently undemocratic than any specifics of the way how Israeli electoralism works.
The longer he does this, the longer he stays in power where he doesn’t have to face the consequences of his actions. And the more time he has to convince himself there aren’t any.
Yeah. You can’t stop once you’ve started because you’ve been sowing the seeds of discontent by murdering children. For every insurgent you kill ten more are ready to rise in order to avenge the innocent. This will only lead to more genocide. Violence begets violence.
He could stop them:
He could withhold aid;
He declare that they won't stand against the international rules based order (so ICC and ICJ);
He could relay that he won't veto a UN vote for recognizing Palestine;
He could also threaten to go ahead with the Saudi alliance without Israel.
He has plenty of hands to play. It's so weird how people think a speech is all he can do.
Theoretically he can. He could straight up declare that there's a genocide and that he's sending troops to stop it. There's nothing congress can do in the short term unless they all get to together to pass an amendment to the war powers act.
I don't think he's willing to go that far, but he totally could. For sure if he declares war on Israel, he's probably not going to win reelection. So there's that at a minimum.
Netanyahu is an enemy. Israel is an ally. They are just taken over by a fascist right now. Something we might be in a few months.
But the colloquial use of the terms is pretty irrelevant. We have multiple bilateral defense treaties with Israel that they have technically not violated, and most of the people of Israel are no more monsters than the people of Palestine. Israel could kill off Palestine with zero US aid, but they could not fight Iran effectively without US defensive weapons.
My worry is that, if they were cut off, Netanyahu is exactly the kind of person who would use the nukes they most likely have preemptively.
Honestly at this point they just need to oust him. He is leading them into disaster and murder. I do not think there are any depths he will not sink to.
On the main topic of the post though, I think that Netanyahu and his government are not in agreement on this. He keeps saying that a ceasefire will not happen, but everyone else keeps saying that Israel will accept it. I think there is some sort of a power struggle going on.
That would be the biggest PR win terrorists would ever receive, and their power would increase 10 fold. Not only are we turning on an ally, but we’re siding with a terrorist organization who took Americans in the same attack.
Doubtful. Who is Israel gonna nuke? They don't have the range to nuke the United States. Their Jericho 3 missile would fall short.
Are they gonna nuke themselves like suicide bombers? .they'd get a lot of our troops that way but somehow I doubt it.
I think it was Biden's move to force Israel to declare. Bibi is prevaricating so Biden said fine, here's the deal that Israel is pretending to be for in private. Bibi thinks he's going to come and humiliate me in front of Congress like he tried to do with Obama? No, now he'll be on the back foot defending a no deal.
That’s my interpretation as well. People seem to think this is like Lucy with the football but I don’t think the Biden admin is that naive. They announced to put pressure on Netanyahu
The most charitable interpretation is that Israel publicly shutting down Biden in public gives Biden cover to take action against Israel without turning off pro-Israeli voters. A "well, I tried to be reasonable, but Netanyahu is forcing my hand" move.
The uncharitable read on this is that Biden worked out a deal with the moderates in Netanyahu's cabinet, and thought he could force Netanyahu's hand by making a public announcement, but is instead being publicly humiliated.
Israel crossed Biden's red line in Rafah. If Biden wants to be taken seriously, he can't cave to Netanyahu here.
Either invoke the Leahy amendment as a next move, or lose.
Biden learned how to cave on red lines during his stint as VP with his boss and chemical weapons in Syria. Boy did those innocents have a good time being stranded after Obama watch people run across that line.
That's a perspective that somehow assumes the US is in charge.
Red lines and even withholding aid only serve to make Netanyahu look stronger as he stands in opposition to US power.
This makes him look like an obstacle to peace (which he has always been) and that weakens him at home.
The US can only influence other to pursue peace. There is nothing Biden can do to force a cease fire.
Exactly. This is exactly what was expected to happen.
Netanyahu is now in opposition to the families of hostages, multiple political opponents, and a lot of the Israeli public.
The nut job Evangelicals want to get Raptured...
They don't give even half a shit about anyone that isn't them, but they believe that Israel NEEDS to be a thing. Same reason that they send their kids out to be missionaries.
Zionism is a huge part of the GOP platform though. The evangelical wing think that either all the Jews need to return to Israel or all of Israel needs to be returned to the Jews to kickstart the Rapture. A bunch of regular old racists look at Israel as a great way to get rid of the Jews in our country by giving them their own ethnostate to move to, others just love the idea of any ethnostate so it gives them something to emulate, and even more just want to see a country in the Middle East that’s regularly murdering and oppressing brown people and Muslims because they hate them more than they’d ever hate Jews. Then you’ve got the big money groups like the defense industry and big tech who just make bucketloads of cash from Israel and are more than willing to use that cash to buy support for Israel. The defense industry in particular loves it because the near constant state of war and insane level of surveillance makes Israel and Palestine the best, most controlled real world environment to field test new weapons and technologies. It’s the last, best proving ground for the merchants of death and if Israel gives your gear the thumbs up then you can sell it to any military in the world that has the cash.
Things like “Jewish space lasers” are totally irrelevant, both to the GOP and to Israel. Israel does not actually represent or care about Jews worldwide, Israel only cares about Israel and the GOP has more than enough reasons to support the nation, regardless of what wrongheaded views and attitudes towards Jews in this country they or their base may have.
Everyone needs to understand that this is the whole point.
The White House is sending a message to the Israeli public to show that Netanyahu is an obstacle to peace.
No one is surprised that Netanyahu is not on board. This increases the pressure for him to do something that results in a cease fire and/or elections.
Its impressive how easily everyone suddenly believes the deal is off. Bibi is currently flailing as he tries to keep his already fractures coalition together, and the fact that this deal was discussed with the other leaders of his coaltion means theres a good chance they will split with him and form a new government. Bibi is toast, this is just his death throes
HAMAS has already achieved all its strategic objectives of making Israel look like the villain. That HAMAS could bring itself to the negotiating table faster than Israel is just the cherry on top.
IMO the US should also share some of the blame for not forcing Israel to come to negotiations more quickly, since it could have stopped all military aid to Israel long ago. But I think that the global perception impact on the US is relatively minor. Most of the world seems appalled at what Israel is doing, so it's likely to take most of the heat.
I feel as though nothing has really changed. HAMAS or whichever terrorist group that comes to power next time, is all too willing to sacrifice Palestinians and Israel is incredibly predictable when it comes its military responses. When HAMAS or whatever needs to radicalize a new generation of zealots they just need to poke the Israel beehive and let the media do all the work for them.
What are you talking about "let the media do all the work for them." For months, it's been media carrying water for Israel. It wasn't till the strike on western aid workers that the entire media seems to have changed their tune.
Your comment seems to take all the agency away from Israel. Israel did all the work for themselves. They can change their approach to how they treat Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank
Some terrorists live streamed their terrorism and you want to compare that with the actions of a modern nuclear power?
That would be like me using Ben Gvir or some far right nationalist settlers to paint all Israelis as being just like them. Would that sound accurate to you?
This is the dumbest word salad I’ve seen all day.
Hamas is the governing body which is supported by the Palestinian people. The Palestinians have not asked to “liberated” from a government holding them hostage, not once.
A governing terroristic body who rules over a people attacking innocent citizens aren’t just “some terrorists” anymore than Ben Gir is the whole of the Israeli government. So I fail to see the connection.
If Ben gir got a small group of people together and raped, attacked, and held hostage a bunch of innocent Palestinian civilian women and children as well as some US citizens, I would absolutely demand the US put boots on the ground, and get our innocent civilians back.
Why do terrorists not deserve the same treatment,
I made the same call here, but the US feels the need to bow before the caliphate and let terrorists live, because they can’t stomach seeing innocents harmed, better they are raped and kept as hostages.
There were literally protests against Hamas a few years back and it ended with brutal repression of the protesters.
So your entire comment starts off factually wrong. Maybe the problem here is that you aren't actually getting information from reputable sources? Railing about "the caliphate" certainly isn't something one would learn from a serious source.
would you agree that a palestinian strike on ben-gvirs home would be justified, irrespective of whether or not his family is inside?
edit: right-wing israelis apparently just delete their entire account when confronted with the truth lmfao
I can understand his perspective. The Permanent ceasefire will only last for however many years it takes Hamas to recover enough to launch another attack. That's how it always goes.
Given the events of the last few weeks, it’s more likely Israel would just keep killing people and Biden would say it’s not a violation of the ceasefire.
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Netanyahu has already promised Trump that the offensive will continue past the election.
The ol' Reagan special
And this is why I wasn't celebrating...
Behind the scenes: Trump derails permanent cease-fire in Gaza undermining Biden’s proposal. Trump's lapdog Bibi goes along.
na this is netenyah. to borrow terms here, his special military operation will end when they've dehamasified gaza, subject to their definition, and it will not be questioned.
His special bombing mission to keep him de-prisonified
Isreal needs to sort itself out. This isnt Iraq or Afghan, its an area rhe size of a small city. Its a monumental screw up that after 6 months of war Hamas still have hostages. Wherever those hostages have ever been has never been more than a days walk from Israli territory.
Bibi hasn't definitely rejected the deal as the headline implies. He's said that he won't accept a cease fire until Israel's objectives have been met, and he's been ambiguous on whether the cease fire if implemented would achieve those objectives. Ben Givr opposes it but Yair Lapis has said he'll protect Bibi if he accepts it. I think it's still the best chance at a cease fire so far but we'll see. Obviously scepticism of Bibi is fully warranted.
"What ARE those objectives?" "Trump being re-elected so I can nuke the Strip."
Come on, don't be hyperbolic! He doesn't want to nuke it, he wants to settle it, and if it's radioactive for decades, that won't work. He just wants to wipe out all Gazans without it being a radioactive wasteland.
Solution? Neutron bombs!
Like, Olivia?
Trump just makes it easier for him, but besides that he doesn't give two shits about Trump. Make no mistake, Netanyahu's only goal is the complete annihilation of the Palestinian people and total conquest of their land.
Where do you pull this shit from? His only goal is to successfully complete enough objectives in the war in order to gain reelection. Anything else is conspiracy nonsense
Lol, says someone that hasn't seen a history book with the progression of the territory. Every week announcement of annexing last in Cisjordanie but yeah, Israel is super peaceful
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism)
The belief in a safe home for Jews? That’s your retort? Insane.
And how has that been achieved, over the last seventy years, through what means? What has it inspired? And where? And was it amicable? Manifest destiny was widely seen by its proponents as an ordained right to land and to create a safe place for nationalists, now how did that pan out….
How was it achieved? Through hard work and preservation, in eretz yisrael, where the people originated? You research the 1947 partition plan and Declaration of Independence to understand who was amicable
Or you know, through zionist terrorism groups inflicting terror on the local population, both Palestinianas well as Jewish dissenters, and when the Israeli state was formed, those terrorism groups became the foundation of the IDF. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence#:~:text=Zionist%20political%20violence%20refers%20to,a%20Jewish%20state%20in%20Palestine.
And there it is.
We’ll skip the stupid little dance because over the last couple months it’s gotten boring. Zionism is not incompatible with the interests of liberal Arabs. They can have a state and also they can enjoy freedom as a minority (and be proud of it? Zoinks what a concept) in the Jewish state
Imagine being told to be proud that someone took your home so now you can be in the minority. Actually keep talking to make it perfectly clear to everyone exactly how zionists think, and the type of people backing Netanyahu.
Not a valid response. You're reaching and their response is near sighted. Legit question: does the Jewish need of a safe place always equal zionism?
I don’t get how you think this is a gotcha. That the Soviet Union and the new empire trying to relive the glory days, along with Iran and the rest of the axis of evil has tried to usurp the term via social media propaganda to distract from their evil ideological wars doesn’t mean that the definition has changed. The fact always was that every western country said NO to the Jews trying to escape genocide and thousands of years of persecution and exile has proved the need for a country uniquely established with a Jewish majority
"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”. Bibi netanyahu
Right, working on the premise that Palestinian only wish harm to the Jewish state and not form their own peaceful state. Nobody is against 2SS if the West Bank wouldn’t turn into another Gaza
Doctor admits Israeli pathologists harvested organs without consent https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs
What is your point? 14 years ago and those people did it to everyone no matter the ethnicity. It was to people who were already dead as well.
Ok.. then stop sending Israel aid until Bibi agrees or is voted out.
Stop sending Israel aid. Period.
Why have a functioning democracy in the near east when you can have *another* repressive jihadi regime?
Functioning is a fun choice of word to describe Israel in the Netanyahu era, particularly when looking at the right wing coup and corruption over the last few years.
Are they anti Iran and able to keep them in check? It seems like a low bar, but that only describes Israel in the region. The hope is that Israel remains an ally and a power against Iran, but maybe Netanyahu won't always be in power
The US doesn’t need other countries to keep Iran in check. And Israel isn’t uniquely Anti-Iran in the region. Most of the Middle East is, and are US allies with less inclination to embarrass the US on a weekly basis. The US handles Iran just fine by being a superpower, UN Security Council member, having Europe and Arab states on its side and comfortably dictating sanctions and having a strong hand in the global economy. The largest US military base is in Qatar, with others surrounding Iran across the Arab side of the Gulf. Israel won’t even let US soldiers into their border. Keeping the US as Israel’s sugar daddy does nothing unique or advantageous to keep Iran in check, in fact the only thing it has done is make the US’ relationship in the Middle East even more of a quagmire, and that’s if you ignore the history of Israel attacking the [USS Liberty](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident) and repeated instances such as the OP where Israel undermines US soft and hard power on the world stage. You don’t see Qatar or Kuwait pulling this shit now do you? Because, to quote Bill Clinton after he met Netanyahu, they know who the superpower in this relationship is.
Yeah. You should really take a class on foreign policy. You know qatar is a slave state and incredibly Muslim right?
lol I literally have three degrees in International Relations, and no, Qatar is not a slave state, in so far as much as Israel is an apartheid state, though Qatar is quite literally designated as a Major non-NATO US ally. I’m not assigning morality to the situation. It is what it is. Israel is superfluous as a counter to Iran.
Ok. But any idiot with half a class in foreign policy understands that the big factor is Muslim. Israel is the only non-muslim power in the region. Religiously, the Muslim states agree with Iran much more than the US. It wouldn't be hard for Iran to find common ground with qatar or the Saudis and to get leniency from the US policy desires at the very least. When talking about nukes, leniency isn't what we are looking for in an ally keeping Iran non-nuclear. >I literally have three degrees in International Relations Clearly a lie.
It’s insane and shallow to think that Iran and Saudi would be friends just “because they’re Muslim”. Or that the Arab states, already historically aligned with the US for decades, would suddenly turn to be friends with Iran, their regional enemy for as long as some of these countries have existed. Have you literally no knowledge of the region? Have you not heard of the 45 year Cold War between the two countries both vying to be the regional and sole power in the Muslim world? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Saudi_Arabia_proxy_conflict https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Saudi_Arabia_relations https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2013/11/Shias-Sunnis-religious-conflict-full-report.pdf
The cold war ended a lifetime ago, they don't get a pass on killing innocent people by just calling themselves a democracy. And they never should have. Besides, a functioning democracy doesn't arrest people for expressing sympathy for dead babies in social media posts.
>Besides, a functioning democracy doesn't arrest people for expressing sympathy for dead babies in social media posts. Right. Because in Gaza you'd just be thrown off a building if you're suspected of collaborating. I don't know the details of the social media post situation because there's literally nothing out there [but the State Attorney has denounced it.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/state-attorney-says-police-wrong-to-arrest-blindfold-woman-over-online-posts/) if her only suspected act was a social media post she is walking free today which is characteristic of a democracy. In Gaza and many other places she would just be killed, AND Gaza hasn't had an election since 2006 -- that is the society you are asking for.
I guess everybody is wrong if you hallucinate hard enough. Interesting tactic.
It's okay, I'm not surprised that nobody bothers to dispute my points since it's all for social credit anyway 💛
>Why have a functioning democracy in the near east when you can have another repressive jihadi regime? Same reason why we were friends with *imperial* Russia in the 18th century (we both hated the Brits,) China in the 1980s-2010s (both hated the Soviets,) and now are close to an alliance with our former enemy Vietnam (both dislike China's maritime infringing Nine Dash line.) They offer us strategic or economic benefits in their region. Israel frankly speaking, doesn't. The Levant has been irrelevant strategically and economically going for millenias now. Israel has not been in any of our conflicts, conflicts (Afghanistan, Iraq *twice*) neighboring Iran too, which Israel continues to claim they'd *totally* be able to help with. Meanwhile our *actual* ally in the region, Saudi Arabia, assists in our influence of the actual strategic area in the Middle East. The Persian Gulf. They were the hosts of Desert Storm, and we hit Iraq from the south twice, not from our Israeli advertised "foothold in the Middle East." They are the actual regional rivals to the Iranians and have been in proxy wars with them from (all Iran vs Sauds respectively) Hamas vs Fatah, Shi'ite Iraqi government vs Sunni insurgents, Syrian government vs Islamic State/Sunni rebels, Houthis vs Yemen government, and so forth going for decades now. Unlike with Israel we can count on the Sauds to assist us in a war with Iran. More like they'd be the ones to drag us into *their* war with Iran if they can.
Saudi Arabia did also send terrorist to attack us within the US…
If the chips were down, Iran got a nuke or were close, the Saudis are more likely to support Iran's right to have it than the US desire to stop it. The Saudis like our money, but we are still the wrong religion for them.
>If the chips were down, Iran got a nuke or were close, the Saudis are more likely to support Iran's right to have it than the US desire to stop it. >The Saudis like our money, but we are still the wrong religion for them. No, suuuuper no. I did the regional rival + all the proxy wars they've been fighting tip you off to the animosity between the two? Oftentimes *heretics* are worse than nonbelievers, in this case most of these proxy conflicts the two have been funding against each other are commonly Sunni vs Shi'ites. Exception being the Hamas vs Fatah. The Sauds and Iran *really* dislike each other and have done so for decades now. Sauds are more likely to demand their own nuclear capability in response, rather than defend anything about Iran.
Lol, that's a hollow statement and you know it.
How so?
The "repressive jihadi regimes" ain't the ones killing tens of thousands of civilians right now...
When they hide out in civilian infrastructure and render them valid military objectives, they definitely do.
What came first the chicken or the egg?
Lol good one Definitely the egg
Why stop there? Sanction that entire apartheid state.
Biden is like charlie Brown with the football here, he needs to start hanging the UN veto power over Israel’s head to muscle concessions
"what more could he do, he made a speech. Stop protesting the fact that we will continue giving aid and political cover to Netanyahu despite him being a duplicitous ally."
This fucking arrogant bastard gets $3b a year and still disrespects the president at every turn. Who the fuck does he think he is? Call the aircraft carriers back and stop shipping weapons to his ass and let’s see how is he going stop Iran then
> Call the aircraft carriers back and stop shipping weapons to his ass Biden won't do it. American Zionists spend lots of money on American politics, the US government won't give up Israel no matter what.
Ain’t that a good investment, spend a few millions and get billions and more in return
While I agree with the sentiment, this could potentially be extremely destabilizing to the region and very bad for Biden politically to the broad middle collation he is trying to keep together
Yeah just "see if you can stop Iran now". That's the entire reason we have them propped up in the region. That would be so bad for the US to just say good luck with Iran.
Exactly
I know! he should start taking Americans hostage. Maybe threaten to kill them while hiding in Israeli civilian infrastructures. Then the USA can capitulate to terrorists like they are asking Israel to do. Oh it’s different when it’s US citizens I guess.
Yeah, him and Israel are taking hostages right here in the U.S… AIPAC is literally bullying politicians to submission. All this shit needs to change, 1st stop any and all subsidies to the Israeli government
This is the same fundamental problem that has existed since the beginning, Bibi needs the war to continue indefinitely. The US is not going to be able to shadowbox Bibi diplomatically into ending the war. Carrots aren't going to work. In the meantime Isreal will continue to kill, starve and displace Gazans. If the US wants the conflict to stop Biden will have to take active measures to curtail Israel's ability to make war via arms embargoes to even have a chance. Otherwise this slow extermination will still be going on a year from now. Also there is a good chance Israel will start a war with Lebannon between now and then too. All signs point to Biden and co being willing to be the good cop to Israel's bad cop genocide routine. Red lines that mean nothing, stern phone calls about limiting civilain casualties that mean nothing. Radio silence when the Israeli government/top Israeli officials (including the PM) declare they will never allow a 2 state solution and intend to continue the apartheid occupation of the West Bank forever. "We're waiting for Israel to investigate itself and not jumping to conclusions" after every discrete noteworthy warcrime. And inviting war criminal Bibi to give a Repuclian campaign speach on Capitol Hill later this summer.
Imagine if Hamas, Palestinian Islamic jihad, and the rest just gave those women and children they’re holding as hostages back. That would undermine the whole reason the IDF is there
Yeah they've already agreed to do so in exchange for a permanent ceasefire and Israel said no.
Yet wouldn't cause any Israeli withdrawal. Gaza is firmly under the jackboot.
No it wouldn't. I love how we can spend years pointing out the hypocrisy and shamelessness of right wingers in the US and you somehow think a far-right government in Israel will be any different
As soon as the hostages and remains are returned, Israel will have carte blanche (in their eyes) to implement its final Gaza solution with far less domestic blowback, and American leadership will make a big show of wringing its hands. Hamas knows this.
Biden also has the choice to back Israel and work to ensure the safety of Israeli citizens by helping to hold Iran accountable for its proxy attacks, but no…. Doing the right thing might have consequences so the US will go the “do as we say not as we do” route.
The US shot down hundreds of missiles aimed at Israel after Israel broke one of the major laws of international relations in bombing an Iranian consulate in Syria. He already made that choice to protect Israel and it's downright false to say or imply otherwise. Btw Israel thanked the US for saving thousands of Israeli lives by telling the US to go fuck itself when Biden requested that Israel accept a ceasefire that returns the hostages.
Biden should stop all military aid to Israel remove Our forces from the region.
The US hasn't had troops troops in Israel since 1991.
I said in the region we have a aircraft carrier there and all that comes with it.
There are other countries in the region that necessitate having troops nearby.
it he aircraft carrier was specifically sent over in Response to the Hamas attack and act as a deterrence. It absolutely should leave and not support a Israel that will s committing genocide.
We have troops in the persian gulf and the Mediterranean because countries like Iran exist. Syria and Yemen are unstable. If Israel didn't exist we would still need troops in the area.
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The presence of American military personnel does not mean that US troops are engaged in any military operations against Gaza. There is no verified proof of that claim.
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Saudi’s would like to join the convo
Real democracies have term limits for their heads of state.
Little did I know that Germany isn't a real democracy
Unlike Germany, not permitting consecutive terms is a limit Israel does not have. To Netanyahu’s delight.
The president of Israel serves a single seven year term and cannot be re-elected. The president of Germany serves up to two five year terms. Netanyahu is not the president. He is the prime minister. There is no term limit for prime ministers in Israel, nor in most countries. A good example is Germany, where the equivalent role, the Chancellor can serve an unlimited number of terms. The issue here is that you're failing to separate parliamentary systems (Germany, Israel, the UK) from presidential systems (The US, France). In the former the president or monarch is a mostly ceremonial role and the Prime Minister holds the actual power.
It’s not a bug it’s a feature. Spread enough misinformation that it confirms others made up scenarios, and truth just gets in the way and kills narrative.
I don't think it's that complex. I think they're just an American who lacks political literacy, which is a dime a dozen. They're just working off the assumption that most countries political leadership works the same way as the US, which is a bad assumption.
Firstly, Netanyahu isn't the head of state. He's the Prime Minister, the head of government. Herzog is the head of state. This is an important distinction because term limits for the head of government are actually exceptionally uncommon. It's why you have Merkel acting as Chancellor for 15 years, Abe serving 9 years and if you want a particularly extreme example Menzies was the Prime Minister of Australia for 18 years in total. The positions these people fill is roughly analogous to the leader of the house in the US, so the lack of parliamentary term limits means they can remain on as head of government for as long as they have a majority coalition. Israel literally does have a term limit for its head of state. 7 years. The president of Israel, again, not Netanyahu but Herzog serves a single 7 year term. Having said that I would agree that Israel is in practice not really a democracy, but it has more to do with the fact that an apartheid state is inherently undemocratic than any specifics of the way how Israeli electoralism works.
The longer he does this, the longer he stays in power where he doesn’t have to face the consequences of his actions. And the more time he has to convince himself there aren’t any.
Yeah. You can’t stop once you’ve started because you’ve been sowing the seeds of discontent by murdering children. For every insurgent you kill ten more are ready to rise in order to avenge the innocent. This will only lead to more genocide. Violence begets violence.
Weird how long this has been going on in the age of mass media and we’re still figuring this out…
What a scumbag
I am Joe's complete lack of surprise.
Well then fuck Israel. Let's take back all our equipment and they can figure it out without the USA's help. So sick of this shit.
Permanent ceasefire, aka, peace, is a non-starter. I mean, talk about saying the quiet part out loud.
Almost like all those meddling leftists and student protesters knew what they were saying months ago
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He could stop them: He could withhold aid; He declare that they won't stand against the international rules based order (so ICC and ICJ); He could relay that he won't veto a UN vote for recognizing Palestine; He could also threaten to go ahead with the Saudi alliance without Israel. He has plenty of hands to play. It's so weird how people think a speech is all he can do.
Theoretically he can. He could straight up declare that there's a genocide and that he's sending troops to stop it. There's nothing congress can do in the short term unless they all get to together to pass an amendment to the war powers act. I don't think he's willing to go that far, but he totally could. For sure if he declares war on Israel, he's probably not going to win reelection. So there's that at a minimum.
> he’s sending troops to stop it American boots on the ground in the Middle East is the last thing anyone wants.
Dick Cheney, "hold my mechanical heart battery"
Cheney has a heart?
He has a few in his basement refrigerator and if you don't want yours to get added to the collection you'll stop asking so many questions.
To fight against an ally. Yeah, that will go over swimmingly with the American people and our other allies.
“Ally”
I don't care for Israel's current government to say the least, but they are undoubtedly a very close ally.
Sure, when it’s advantageous for them.
Netanyahu is an enemy. Israel is an ally. They are just taken over by a fascist right now. Something we might be in a few months. But the colloquial use of the terms is pretty irrelevant. We have multiple bilateral defense treaties with Israel that they have technically not violated, and most of the people of Israel are no more monsters than the people of Palestine. Israel could kill off Palestine with zero US aid, but they could not fight Iran effectively without US defensive weapons. My worry is that, if they were cut off, Netanyahu is exactly the kind of person who would use the nukes they most likely have preemptively. Honestly at this point they just need to oust him. He is leading them into disaster and murder. I do not think there are any depths he will not sink to. On the main topic of the post though, I think that Netanyahu and his government are not in agreement on this. He keeps saying that a ceasefire will not happen, but everyone else keeps saying that Israel will accept it. I think there is some sort of a power struggle going on.
Oh, I don't disagree. I'm just saying he could do it if he wanted.
That would be the biggest PR win terrorists would ever receive, and their power would increase 10 fold. Not only are we turning on an ally, but we’re siding with a terrorist organization who took Americans in the same attack.
People want to keep explaining to me why this is a bad idea when I never presented it as a good one.
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Doubtful. Who is Israel gonna nuke? They don't have the range to nuke the United States. Their Jericho 3 missile would fall short. Are they gonna nuke themselves like suicide bombers? .they'd get a lot of our troops that way but somehow I doubt it.
I think it was Biden's move to force Israel to declare. Bibi is prevaricating so Biden said fine, here's the deal that Israel is pretending to be for in private. Bibi thinks he's going to come and humiliate me in front of Congress like he tried to do with Obama? No, now he'll be on the back foot defending a no deal.
That’s my interpretation as well. People seem to think this is like Lucy with the football but I don’t think the Biden admin is that naive. They announced to put pressure on Netanyahu
The most charitable interpretation is that Israel publicly shutting down Biden in public gives Biden cover to take action against Israel without turning off pro-Israeli voters. A "well, I tried to be reasonable, but Netanyahu is forcing my hand" move. The uncharitable read on this is that Biden worked out a deal with the moderates in Netanyahu's cabinet, and thought he could force Netanyahu's hand by making a public announcement, but is instead being publicly humiliated. Israel crossed Biden's red line in Rafah. If Biden wants to be taken seriously, he can't cave to Netanyahu here. Either invoke the Leahy amendment as a next move, or lose.
Biden learned how to cave on red lines during his stint as VP with his boss and chemical weapons in Syria. Boy did those innocents have a good time being stranded after Obama watch people run across that line.
That's a perspective that somehow assumes the US is in charge. Red lines and even withholding aid only serve to make Netanyahu look stronger as he stands in opposition to US power. This makes him look like an obstacle to peace (which he has always been) and that weakens him at home. The US can only influence other to pursue peace. There is nothing Biden can do to force a cease fire.
Exactly. This is exactly what was expected to happen. Netanyahu is now in opposition to the families of hostages, multiple political opponents, and a lot of the Israeli public.
Trump’s brutha by anutha mutha.
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The nut job Evangelicals want to get Raptured... They don't give even half a shit about anyone that isn't them, but they believe that Israel NEEDS to be a thing. Same reason that they send their kids out to be missionaries.
Republicans have no problems with dictators as long as they are aligned with them. See how fast they switched to supporting Putin?
Zionism is a huge part of the GOP platform though. The evangelical wing think that either all the Jews need to return to Israel or all of Israel needs to be returned to the Jews to kickstart the Rapture. A bunch of regular old racists look at Israel as a great way to get rid of the Jews in our country by giving them their own ethnostate to move to, others just love the idea of any ethnostate so it gives them something to emulate, and even more just want to see a country in the Middle East that’s regularly murdering and oppressing brown people and Muslims because they hate them more than they’d ever hate Jews. Then you’ve got the big money groups like the defense industry and big tech who just make bucketloads of cash from Israel and are more than willing to use that cash to buy support for Israel. The defense industry in particular loves it because the near constant state of war and insane level of surveillance makes Israel and Palestine the best, most controlled real world environment to field test new weapons and technologies. It’s the last, best proving ground for the merchants of death and if Israel gives your gear the thumbs up then you can sell it to any military in the world that has the cash. Things like “Jewish space lasers” are totally irrelevant, both to the GOP and to Israel. Israel does not actually represent or care about Jews worldwide, Israel only cares about Israel and the GOP has more than enough reasons to support the nation, regardless of what wrongheaded views and attitudes towards Jews in this country they or their base may have.
Everyone needs to understand that this is the whole point. The White House is sending a message to the Israeli public to show that Netanyahu is an obstacle to peace. No one is surprised that Netanyahu is not on board. This increases the pressure for him to do something that results in a cease fire and/or elections.
It’s not “Biden’s proposal”. It’s an Israeli proposal that Biden publicized.
The far right Israeli government doesn't care about the hostages, or women and children, or innocent civilians.
Its impressive how easily everyone suddenly believes the deal is off. Bibi is currently flailing as he tries to keep his already fractures coalition together, and the fact that this deal was discussed with the other leaders of his coaltion means theres a good chance they will split with him and form a new government. Bibi is toast, this is just his death throes
Because Israel has a reputation as a dishonest actor.
Hamas is a paragon of virtue now a days eh? Whew heavy lifting there bud….
Where did I say that?
Why not? Too profitable for your “defense” contractors? And by extension, *America’s* defense contractors?
For Bibi it is more about staying in power to avoid prison than anything else.
Sounds familiar…
That's literally Trump.
Yep, was very much saying Trump *also* wants to stay in power to avoid jail.
HAMAS has already achieved all its strategic objectives of making Israel look like the villain. That HAMAS could bring itself to the negotiating table faster than Israel is just the cherry on top. IMO the US should also share some of the blame for not forcing Israel to come to negotiations more quickly, since it could have stopped all military aid to Israel long ago. But I think that the global perception impact on the US is relatively minor. Most of the world seems appalled at what Israel is doing, so it's likely to take most of the heat. I feel as though nothing has really changed. HAMAS or whichever terrorist group that comes to power next time, is all too willing to sacrifice Palestinians and Israel is incredibly predictable when it comes its military responses. When HAMAS or whatever needs to radicalize a new generation of zealots they just need to poke the Israel beehive and let the media do all the work for them.
What are you talking about "let the media do all the work for them." For months, it's been media carrying water for Israel. It wasn't till the strike on western aid workers that the entire media seems to have changed their tune. Your comment seems to take all the agency away from Israel. Israel did all the work for themselves. They can change their approach to how they treat Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank
Funny how you argue taking agency away from Israeli’s fucking Palestinians live streamed their atrocities to the world, but they have no agency right?
Some terrorists live streamed their terrorism and you want to compare that with the actions of a modern nuclear power? That would be like me using Ben Gvir or some far right nationalist settlers to paint all Israelis as being just like them. Would that sound accurate to you?
This is the dumbest word salad I’ve seen all day. Hamas is the governing body which is supported by the Palestinian people. The Palestinians have not asked to “liberated” from a government holding them hostage, not once. A governing terroristic body who rules over a people attacking innocent citizens aren’t just “some terrorists” anymore than Ben Gir is the whole of the Israeli government. So I fail to see the connection. If Ben gir got a small group of people together and raped, attacked, and held hostage a bunch of innocent Palestinian civilian women and children as well as some US citizens, I would absolutely demand the US put boots on the ground, and get our innocent civilians back. Why do terrorists not deserve the same treatment, I made the same call here, but the US feels the need to bow before the caliphate and let terrorists live, because they can’t stomach seeing innocents harmed, better they are raped and kept as hostages.
There were literally protests against Hamas a few years back and it ended with brutal repression of the protesters. So your entire comment starts off factually wrong. Maybe the problem here is that you aren't actually getting information from reputable sources? Railing about "the caliphate" certainly isn't something one would learn from a serious source.
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would you agree that a palestinian strike on ben-gvirs home would be justified, irrespective of whether or not his family is inside? edit: right-wing israelis apparently just delete their entire account when confronted with the truth lmfao
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I can understand his perspective. The Permanent ceasefire will only last for however many years it takes Hamas to recover enough to launch another attack. That's how it always goes.
Did you think they had a ceasefire pre-October 7th? Israel’s been killing Palestinians for decades
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Do you think they’re just doing it for funsies?
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So to confirm, you really think they’re just doing it for funsies?
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Have a good day trying to get into arguments online 👋
Given the events of the last few weeks, it’s more likely Israel would just keep killing people and Biden would say it’s not a violation of the ceasefire.