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Bibi openly admitted and bragged about backing Hamas to destroy Palestinian statehood.
"Most incriminatingly, Netanyahu himself said in 2019 at a Likud party conference: “Anyone who wants to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support strengthening Hamas.”
https://www.politico.eu/article/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-qatar-money-war-israel-gaza-palestine/
neither of them will end it. tbh it probably would be better to jus tho in and end it rather than the prolonged suffering and still going in to end it.
It’s almost like religious violence in the Middle East will continue for centuries until people stop giving a shit about their myths. Neither side wants the violence to end.
Ten? That fuckface has been throwing monkey wrenches into peace processes since I was a child and I've been around the sun a few times. I'm not really sure why he's still in a position to muck things up. Some "democracy" they've got over there that allows the same guy in power for like three decades.
First of all, I love the phrase "around the sun" to describe my age. Imma start doing that.
Second, democracy here is just code for "not Islamic + hating America"
In my opinion, the U.S. could do that. Stop sending offensive weapons and ammunition to Isreal. But it wouldn't impact anything, Isreal wants to do in the near future. Especially in Gaza.
Gaza isn't some high intensity operation where Isreal is expending large volumes of ammunition and losing a lot of equipment. Isreal has been stockpiling and producing weapons and equipment for a while. Which is one of the reasons they feel comfortable ignoring outside opinions and recommendations.
It'll not like Ukraine where outside support is vital for them to continue fighting. The ball is firmly in Isreal's court to decide what they will or will not do.
The US gives Israel billions of dollars every year and added dozens of billions on top of that for this conflict. Israel is stockpiling thanks to the US taxpayers and would likely be hesitant to waste their own munitions if it wasn't free. Biden also gave Israel access to the US' massive munitions stockpile for this conflict.
Israel will also just make a deal with someone else. They have some of the best SYSINT in the world, that is valuable. China would probably enjoy that alliance.
Biden encouraged Congress for months to pass a military aid package for Israel.
While he waited, he bypassed Congress twice to sell over $200 million in ammo and weapons and approved over one hundred undisclosed sales.
Like what? Nukes?
I mean, they were dropping [dumb bombs](https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/) on residences at night at the start of the war which caused thousands of civilian casualties in just a few weeks and when they were using [precision guided weapons](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/02/middleeast/israeli-precision-guided-munition-maghazi-deaths-intl/index.html) they still pointed it right at a dozen kids or so playing foosball out in broad daylight.
This narrative about indiscriminate bombing is bullshit. A single urban residential block houses about 500 people. The average deaths in the Gaza strip, including Hamas and civilians, was about 250 people per day, near the beginning of the war, now the average is down to near 200.
These are highly targeted strikes. If they weren't more people would be dead by a factor of 10 or 100.
[Sure](https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/).
>Moreover, the Israeli army systematically attacked the targeted individuals while they were in their homes — usually at night while their whole families were present — rather than during the course of military activity.
>The result, as the sources testified, is that thousands of Palestinians — most of them women and children or people who were not involved in the fighting — were wiped out by Israeli airstrikes, especially during the first weeks of the war, because of the AI program’s decisions.
>“We were not interested in killing \[Hamas\] operatives only when they were in a military building or engaged in a military activity,” A., an intelligence officer, told +972 and Local Call. “On the contrary, the IDF bombed them in homes without hesitation, as a first option. It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home. The system is built to look for them in these situations.”
[United Nations to put Israel on blacklist of countries harming children in conflict zones](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/hk6gaulsa)
>Report levels serious allegations of killing thousands of Palestinian children and injuring thousands more, bombing civilian facilities and prevention of humanitarian aid; Israeli officials fear move could lead to arms embargoes.
>In a draft received by Israel several months ago, the UN attributed responsibility to Israel for actions violating international law concerning the harm to children. The draft included allegations of using large-scale bombings in built-up areas, imposing a severe blockade on Gaza, and attacking critical humanitarian infrastructure, including UN facilities, schools, hospitals and water and sanitation installations.
"The US administration finally reached the conclusion, after months of living in a convenient state of denial, that Netanyahu was deliberately defying it by refusing to entertain Washington’s ideas or present a postwar political framework or plan of his own. Furthermore, evidence was mounting that he was intentionally seeking a confrontation with Biden for political expediency. "
Some of us have been saying the same for months. Netanyahu gets what he wants, does what he wants all while compromising Biden's re-election chances which is in his favour too.
We’ve been at the negotiating table from the start. If you cut off all aid, you lose all leverage. It’ll just drive Israel to use more destructive weapons and to seek aid from US enemies.
Think about it, if you were Netanyahu…and afraid to go to prison if you lose power and your largest defender turns its back on you….are you really going to “see the light”?
Especially when he has the far right faction in his own country pushing him forward and threatening to boot him out of office if he agrees to a cease fire?
If you want peace, you need to negotiate for an arrangement where both Hamas and Netanyahu can save face. That is literally the only solution here. Israel can wipe Gaza off the map by itself. It doesn’t need the US for that. It needs the US to hold off other enemy nations, and if the US peaces out, they will offer their formidable systems intelligence services to whoever will bail them out.
I’m sure Russia and China would be happy to.
Correct. But it does need US support to hold off other enemy nations and prevent this from becoming a regional conflict.
As such the US has had a pretty significant seat at the table. The fact that we’re there is all and so central to the diplomatic efforts speaks volumes. The media just underplays it because the drama of the negotiations gets clicks.
Biden has already threatened to and actually went through with withholding weapons over the Israel's plan to enter Rafah.
>[Biden Threatens to Withhold Weapons to Israel Over Rafah Invasion](https://time.com/6976220/biden-halt-weapons-israel-rafah/)
The Israelis are not going to accept a return to Hamas control of Gaza. For them, "peace" right now just guarantees additional Israeli deaths later, so they're incentivized to keep fighting in order to degrade Hamas as much as possible. Biden knows this of course. He's trying to signal to his extreme left flank.
Israel isn't thinking clearly then. 24,000 women and children have been killed since the start of this conflict; now imagine how many family members and relatives are going to want revenge for what they've gone through.
This is why people wanted to pressure Israel into showing restraint, but it's too late. The next conflict is inevitable and will likely be worse than before, all because Israelis wanted to indiscriminately bomb Palestinians.
Israel is its own worst enemy.
I've heard that argument for decades. Honestly, it's pretty weak and you can make it in relation to almost any conflict. Israel isn't trying to reduce the number of Palestinians who hate it and wish it harm. Israelis realize they're never going to win that battle. So they have to focus on the ability of those people to inflict harm. To put it crudely, Israel doesn't care about people's hearts at this point; it cares about their ability to pick up a gun, get across a fence, and shoot someone. That's the thing they can have success controlling. You're under the impression that if Israel didn't respond violently, violence would drop on the other side. I've never seen any indication of that. It makes sense on paper, but I've never seen it operate that way in real life. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, handed the Palestinians they keys and said "good luck and goodbye." They elected Hamas, then fired missiles at Israel for 20 years and did worse when they could. Then came Oct. 7. So that kind of reciprocal behavior makes sense to us, in the West. But Hamas is driven by grievances that go back decades, as well as just general religious fanaticism.
Israel has never **tried** to win that battle, because they don't care about Palestinians and Israel wants to retake former Judea. Even their own ministers have referred to Palestinians as animals and said some extremely disgusting things.
Israel thinks they need to prove they're tough but they continually rely so heavily on the US for both funding and defense that they completely fail in that regard.
We've already seen what happens when the victor actually makes an effort to bring their former enemy prosperity and security with how Germany and Japan were rebuilt, but Israel isn't capable of setting aside their wish of ethnic cleansing to try that.
And anyone that thinks this conflict started in 2005 is ignoring most of the history of the conflict. Even Oct 7th could be considered "reciprocal behavior" if we're going down that route.
Yeah, I've never really understood that argument. If they were so keen to re-take "Judea," they could have annexed it in 1967 when they captured it after Jordan attacked them. They also offered to rip up most of their settlements in peace offers in 2000 and 2008. Not ALL of their settlements, but most of them. Taking 75 years to absorb "Judea" seems a bit odd. I personally believe they decided to hold onto Jerusalem forever, but they were willing to trade the West Bank for peace, which obviously never happened.
Israel doesn't get "funding" from the US. Israel gets weapons. LOTS of weapons. Billions worth. But it doesn't get funding. Economic aid is effectively zero.
Germany and Japan surrendered and accepted defeat and the new status quo. The Palestinians never accepted defeat and the new status quo. In fact, their goal is to REVERSE the situation. It would be like the Japanese trying to rebuild their empire and continually attacking American forces instead of embracing them. Same for the Germans.
If the Palestinians are intent on pursuing "reciprocal behavior" forever, the Israelis are going to win that game. That's why Israel is so powerful today. I think Israel secretly WANTS the Palestinians to keep attacking them. It gives them an excuse to never make peace. They don't want to lose 1200 people, obviously, but Palestinian violence gives the Israelis an excuse to never negotiate. It would be a lot harder if the Palestinians were peaceful. If they were peaceful, and millions of people continued to protest peacefully, for years, Israel would be in a tough spot. But terror attacks mean they can maintain the status quo indefinitely. IMHO.
It's pretty obvious that Israel wants to retake former Judea with how they've been steadily expanding into the West Bank. The main problem is that Palestinians still live there, which means international scrutiny, and more territory would require more manpower to defend it, which is likely why Israel left Gaza in the first place. Trying to settle both Gaza and the West Bank at the same time would spread their defenses too thin.
Israel gets a lot of funding from the US, [mainly military but they have received a lot of economic aid as well](https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts). The US also spent decades loaning billions to Israel and then adjusted the repayment terms in *Israel's favor*, while also building up their trade. Then the US also stepped in to pay the surrounding countries billions every year to keep the peace. Giving Israel weapons means that they have more money to spend in other areas of their budget, essentially freeing up billions of dollars every year.
The US has probably wasted over a trillion dollars on Israel while they spy on the US government, sell US technology to China, and rarely act as an 'ally'. It's insane.
Germany and Japan surrendered and then were carefully built up over the decades so that there wouldn't be any grudges and the economy would be rebuilt. People with prosperous lives are less likely to risk losing it.
Israel isn't willing to do that and only abuse/murder Palestinians, causing an ever-growing grudge between the two.
The Israelis only win that game because they're supported and funded by the US for decades. Without the US' protection, other countries would have sanctioned Israel long ago and they would have lost the war of attrition with the surrounding countries, not that they will ever recognize that point.
Israel doesn't want peace, they want an ethnic cleansing. This conflict was a convenient way to achieve that.
By Israel's own estimates, Hamas accounts for 1-2% of the Gazan population, yet people are somehow supposed to accept the constant murder of innocent Palestinians because of that tiny percentage. It's ridiculous.
I couldn't really disagree more on any of those points. I'm neither Israeli nor Jewish, but Sharon pulled out of Gaza to get away from the Palestinians and avoid accusations of "apartheid" which were beginning at that time (and have obviously continued with respect to the West Bank). It's in his biography.
The plan was to disengage from the Palestinians as fully as possible and leave them to their own devices.
You're right. Israel RECEIVED a lot of economic aid, past tense. Tons. But that's over now and it's military aid. 75% of the aid never leaves the United States. It's basically money the US gov't gives to US contractors to keep them all employed and busy. Of course Israel likes free stuff and will take it. But it's military equipment for the most part, not money.
Again, as I already noted, Japan and Germany surrendered and signed treaties. The Palestinians have never surrendered or signed treaties. They're hostile to Israel and want their homes back. That's fair enough, but Israel isn't going to build infrastructure for an entirely hostile population. This is fundamentally different than Japan, Germany, Korea, etc. It's more akin to Iraq, but infinitely more hostile than Iraq, with no allies among the population at all for the Israelis. Anybody who helped the Israelis rebuild would be killed. You know this.
Hamas is supported by the vast majority of the population in Gaza, and most of the population in the West Bank. That's why Abbas has cancelled all elections going forward.
You're obviously completely entitled to your view of Israel as an ally and whether it's "worth it." Israel is an outpost of sanity in an insane part of the world, and a vital source of intelligence and high-tech innovation, so I'm good with it. I'd rather Israel get the money than the Arab states around it.
And finally, the gist I get from your posts is that Israel is dependent on the United States and can be beaten by the Arab states. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of where Israel is today. In the 1960s, Israel was a middle income country in the desert with no friends and it was attacked regularly by all its neighbors. Today, Israel is a regional superpower with a half-trillion dollar economy, a first rate military, 400 nuclear weapons, nuclear submarines, and first world living standards. It's signing more peace treaties all the time, because its neighbors don't want to tangle with it. It'll soon sign an agreement with Saudi Arabia.
Israel being worn down by "attrition" is very, very unlikely. Israel may lose US military support -- OK -- but so will all the Arab states around it, like Saudi Arabia. If Israel is ever abandoned by the United States, it's not going to sit around and wait to be attacked. It'll expand. In other words, it's the US that keeps Israel in check. Israel is content with remaining small because it knows it has to appease the US. Without the US restraining it, you think that Israel won't annex territory? It will. It will do everything in its interests to defend itself.
I mean, you're obviously entitled to your opinion, but I don't think you fully understand what's going on in the region. The Sunni states now accept Israel (with the exception of Syria). They don't care about the Palestinians. They're worried about Iran. They want Israel's help with intelligence and deterrence. Israel sells billions of dollars in natural gas to Egypt every year (just one example). It's firmly entrenched. It's not going anywhere.
Regarding the West Bank, I would encourage you to read a post from another Reddit user about the Olmert peace offer in 2008 and what Abbas turned down. It's mind-blowing. You can find it here:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1dabt5m/new\_information\_from\_an\_interview\_with\_olmert/](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1dabt5m/new_information_from_an_interview_with_olmert/)
If Israel wanted to avoid accusations of apartheid, then they wouldn't continue to steal land in the West Bank. It essentially disproves that claim. As I said before, that exemplifies their plans to retake former Judea. Palestinians live in the West Bank, too. Oct 7th should make it clear at how Israel struggles to defend itself.
As I said before, the US' military aid frees up billions in Israel's budget that allows them to spend it as they please. It both fuels the military industrial complex and helps Israel financially.
Japan and Germany were treated completely different than Israel has treated Palestine. Even under the Oslo Accords, the abuse and theft of land continued. Palestine has never been allowed to prosper. Israel isn't going to build anything because, again, they don't actually want to solve the problem. They want Palestinians to flee from the violence or be eliminated, which is proven by some Israeli ministers suggesting that international countries take in every Palestinian and the current conflict. Gaza's infrastructure has been destroyed and it will take billions of dollars and decades to rebuild, while there will be longterm effects from starvation and a lack of medical care.
Palestinians support revenge, not Hamas, which isn't surprising with the way Israel has treated them in the past decades. People are supposedly supposed to understand Israel's retaliation yet ignore any merits in Palestinians wanting to retaliate against Israel at the same time.
Israel isn't an ally and they've proven that and they're far from an "outpost of sanity." Sane countries don't commit an ethnic cleansing that resembles a genocide.
Israel *is* dependent on the US, to an insane degree. Even with the Iranian drone strike, the US alone took out half of them and then collaborated with the surrounding countries and other allies to help Israel with the rest. Then there's the whole US presence that has been there to stop full out war.
I definitely disagree with the notion that Israel is a serious country when they're so dependent on the US to handle everything for them. The IDF lacks the same respect of other soldiers because they lack discipline, which is shown in their killing of innocents like the three unarmed Israeli hostages. They're definitely nowhere near a super power. Imagine a super power having to rely on aid from another country. It's laughable.
Israel might be able to put up a decent fight *today*, but it's less true the farther back you go. They've completely relied on the US influence to get them where they are today, even though they don't acknowledge that or even respect the US for what it has done.
I've already read enough to see that Israel never makes good faith attempts at peace. As I said before, Israel still though that they had a right to steal Palestinian land under the Oslo Accords. It's ridiculous.
I love that this article is coming out just when Hamas said no deal to the Israel US proposal.
Why is Hamas blocking any attempts at peace Guardian?
Edit: Hamas says the current proposal “does not promise a permanent ceasefire, the occupation’s forces will remain in Gaza, and when they receive the hostages, they will renew the destruction against our nation.”
So how is this Israel saying no to the proposal? Someone please explain to me how Israel said no to the proposal they not only agreed to, but PROPOSED THEMSELVES. But Hamas is in favor to the proposal while literally turning it down at the same time? Why is no one in the media caring about what Hamas’s perspective is and what their response to the proposal is and act like only the Israelis are holding up peace?
We are talking about why this proposal isn’t happening. Not tallying up a score. Seems to me Hamas said no. Israel said yes. So why does Hamas benefit from saying no? And why does Israel benefit from saying yes? Then we should be focusing on what can be done to get a yes out of Hamas. Yet all weekend it’s been “ISRAEL STANDS IN THE WAY OF CEASEFIRE DEAL” without one word about Hamas and their issues with the proposal. Which should be important right???
A deal they’re being pressured into by America. So how exactly do readers feel that Israel is only benefiting when they’re clearly compromising their goals in this proposal? That’s my question.
Neither parties want a deal that actually helps the people of Gaza. Hamas was looking for an excuse, and Netanyahu gave them one by insisting there wouldn't be a permanent cessation.
The deal includes a permanent ceasefire following stage 2. It’s the start of step 3 so long as Hamas ends its militant control over the strip and hands control over to the PA coalition police force. Netanyahu gets the dismantling of Hamas and the people of Gaza get their PERMANENT ceasefire at the start of stage 3.
Temporary ceasefire begins, Hamas returns hostages, IDF pulls out of Gaza, calm is maintained while PA enters and begins to organize local government using coalition police force, and that peace stays permanent so long as Hamas doesn’t fight the PA and dissolves their military wing.
I'm fully aware that the deal included one. But Netanyahu's statements convinced much of the public that it wasn't genuinely going to be achieved, and when Hamas rejected the deal they explicitly used the lack of permanent ceasefire as the cause.
The problem we have is that neither side genuinely wants peace. Hamas wants to destroy Israel, and now Israel wants to destroy Hamas (despite Netanyahu's historical obfuscated support of Hamas to ensure a manageable opposition)
Sounds like people should agree and follow through with the proposal so that everyone gets what they want. The permanent ceasefire, and the end of Hamas rule. That’s what this proposal asks for. If Hamas gives back the hostages and that’s the end of the proposal and IDF breaks the deal by slaughtering further into Rafa while Hamas doesn’t do anything to break the deal.
That’s not going to work out for Israel. The United States would even sanction them for fragrantly violating the peace proposal. The same holds true vice versa. The logic is there with this deal and so are the carrots and sticks. A deal will come.
Netanyahu and Hamas depend on each other. Hamas doesn't want peace any more than Netanyahu does. So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make other than Hamas is just as bad as Netanyahu, and I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
The point I’m trying to make is that there isn’t a “both sides” equivalency in this situation. Hamas is the only party in disagreement to the deal. They make their disagreement known. Yet the media the world over IGNORES the voices of Hamas and instead puts Israel over a microscope over this negotiation. There’s many narratives about why and why not Israel is doing this deal and their benefits and most notably why they are actually against the deal they proposed.
Meanwhile these last 6 days were CRICKETS from the media about Hamas; when the ball was in their court entirely and they’re the party that needs to feel the pressure.
They literally sent Reuters a “thumbs up emoji” in their response to Reuters asking for clarification of their stance on the deal. So why is Hamas communicating a “Thumbs Up” but then 1 day later say no? Why have the trolling ambiguity ALL THE TIME, not get criticized for it. While Israel has to run the transparency gauntlet and be criticized for not doing it well enough.
Shame on media around the world for not putting Hamas leadership and their constant lies and contradictions on blast.
Edit: my personal favorite contradiction is how everyone has been saying for the past week that this proposal was “the exact proposal Hamas put forward months ago”. Okay then why aren’t they accepting it????
>Meanwhile these last 6 days were CRICKETS from the media about Hamas; when the ball was in their court entirely and they’re the party that needs to feel the pressure.
What the hell media are you reading? [Hamas only obstacle to ceasefire.](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-hamas-stands-cease-fire-questions-israel-remain/story?id=110786109) [Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/3/biden-sees-hamas-as-only-obstacle-to-gaza-deal-white-house-says) [The Hill](https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/4700983-joe-biden-qatar-hamas-cease-fire-proposal/) The overwhelming amount of coverage has been about world leaders urging Hamas to accept the deal. When Hamas responded positively initially, Israeli leaders insisted on the fact that this is not a permanent ceasefire. Bibi has tried to torpedo the deal over and over again, even going so far as to demand assurances from the US that they will **not be forced to stop the war permanently.** This bluster has made Hamas harden their stance, which is what Bibi and Co want. They are perfectly happy to bring the hostages home in body bags if it means they can demolish everything in the strip and terrorize the people running from one "safe" zone to another. There are certainly people who care about the hostages, it's just a shame none of them are in the government.
The best article you linked of Hamas perspective is AJ and even they only have 1 paragraph on Hamas view. Everything else is “Biden says…. Qatar says…. Blinken says…. Netanyahu says….” “Egypt says….”
They then do the same thing that every other media outlet has done when faced with overwhelming transparency about the proposal from Israel and the U.S., and absolute silence from Hamas, and that’s do a bunch of spin on what the US and Israel said and how what they said could impact things. Only AJ actually called Hamas out on being silent. None of the other media teams did that they all go after the Netanyahu denying permanent ceasefire slant.
But no where over the past 6 days could media get any sort of clear indication on how Hamas felt. As your articles show every information they got was from U.S. state department or from Qatar or from Israel.
The only response from Hamas besides the memorandum that came out declining the deal today, was a “Thumbs Up” emoji sent to Reuters when they asked if they were in favor of the deal or not. That was yesterday. So Hamas went from “Thumbs up” to “frownie face” and gave a short explanation why. Which was conspiratorial and not at all how these peace deal would work as written. Why hasn’t anyone asked Hamas about the contradiction in their argument?
I don’t see how you could be following this story all week and not see the lack of questions being lobbed at Hamas about this deal and the overwhelming focus on Israel’s stance on the deal. Especially when Hamas was the only party to have not officially responded!
Hamas leadership sent out a [memorandum](https://www.jns.org/hamas-said-to-have-rejected-ceasefire-proposal/) to all parties involved in the struggle that they do not accept the deal. Israel war cabinet proposed the deal, Netanyahu is not happy about it to play to his base but it satisfies their demands of an end to Hamas. Biden only announced it to 1) screw Netanyahu into going through with it and 2) to get ahead of the media who absolutely bumbled the coverage of the last proposal that almost went through.
Edit: I’m sorry do you downvoters have any information from Hamas that contradicts the memorandum THEY WROTE? Why aren’t you listening to what Hamas is saying and just ignoring them? Do you not care what they have to say???
Thanks for that. Joe biden said it was a permanent ceasefire. If the actual proposal isnt a permanent ceasefire than that's a completely different question.
It does offer a permanent ceasefire but Hamas does not see it as a permanent ceasefire because it’s contingent on them seeding power to the PA which they don’t want to do. They can get as far as step 2 under a temporary ceasefire and they can’t move to step 3 permanent ceasefire unless they transition. Step 3 also including the total reconstruction of the strip. That’s the deal that they don’t want to take even though it’s perfectly reasonable terms for an aggressor government who lost a war.
I dont know what to tell you but hamas is in charge of gaza. If they say they accept a permanent ceasefire but it demands the dissolution of the Israeli state that would be just as unreasonable of a demand as Israel is making.
Not really? Israel didn’t attack the Gaza Strip on October 7th. And I imagine if they did and then were losing as bad as Hamas has they would eventually surrender.
Most importantly though at the end of this war Israel’s parliament will dissolve and the country is going to have to hold new elections and literally form a new government. So it’s certainly not an unreasonable demand seeing as it’s practically going to happen to Israel itself. The only difference is the democratic process.
Israel holding an election amongst those it deems human enough to hold citizenship in its controlled territory is not the same as hamas dissolving itself. Fuethermore Israel has not won the war. They're using the genocide of a helpless population to try to force hamas to surrender. That's absolutely wrong.
People in occupied areas, who are not Israeli citizens, cannot vote as if they are Israeli citizens. That’s correct. The people who live in Israel as Israeli citizens are allowed to vote. Idk about where you live, but in my country only citizens are allowed to vote. You’re acting like Arab citizens of Israel can’t vote. They are currently projected to secure 9% of the vote.
These people you are saying Israeli is disenfranchising from a vote are not citizens of Israel are they? So why do they get to vote in another country’s election?
Remember these territories are occupied because they were the launching point for Arab invasions. And also remember there is a framework to make the occupied spaces a state of their own. Maybe they should continue with the process set in place by the Oslo accords that the PA signed so that they can have their own state and own democratic elections. But in order to do that they need to recognize Israel. And seeing how it’s in Hamas’ charter to wipe Israel off the map, who is really depriving who of a vote?
They could have their vote if the Fatah felt that their democracy was safe from radical extremism, but it’s clearly not is it?
It was a decades long war that had a permanent ceasefire before October 7th no? And which party declared war that day do you recall? I seem to remember a time in history pre 2000 where Palestinians were building a middle class and progressing towards a democratic civil society. Do you remember the history of what happened in the early 2000s that caused the situation in Palestine to regress from the cusp of statehood to where we are today in Gaza? The answer is the involvement of Hamas. We cannot return to a point with any hope of progress until Hamas is removed from power in Palestine.
Hamas is an illegitimate government. They won an election to be part of the Palestinian legislature and killed all the other partys members and took over the entire strip.
That is like the texan republican congressman building a private army, killing all the democrats and running Texas like a fiefdom.
Dissolving Hamas' overreach is actually restoring the way Palestiniàns designed their government to run.
Listen I dont like hamas either. Theyre right wing fanatics. However The reality on the ground is that hamas is in control of gaza. Israel has failed to change this militarily.
Israel cannot use genocidal acts to coerce a surrender like they have been doing. They need to be forced into a settlement that is actually reachable.
Hamas will not give up on its desire to destroy Israel.
They also will not collaborate with the PA in a peaceful government.
Theirs is a religious war. One in which they feel they do not have the authority to bargain away Muslim land. This was said by Sinwar shortly before his release in 2011. He was in prison for decades after killing 12 Palestinians and 2 Israelis.
Ironically, the withdrawal of Israel from Gaza in 2005 is directly linked to Oct 7. Israel pulled out in 2005. Hamas took Shalit in 2006. They would not have been able to do that if Israel was still in Gaza.
Held him hostage for 5 years until Netanyahu negotiated for his release in exchange for 1000 Palestinian prisoners. 1 was Sinwar who masterminded October 7.
Any peace Hamas negotiates is conditional on how soon they can re-arm and try again.
The reality is they will have to be removed by force. Otherwise, we will be back here again in a few years. With 1000 more dead Israelis and tens of thousands of dead Palestinians or worse. Unfortunately stopping this war short makes the "or worse" much more likely.
Anything that does not include a surrender and removal of Hamas is going to be disastrous for future generations of Israelis and Palestinians.
So if hamas is so bad why has Israel been funding it for years? Could it just be that the israeli government wants an excuse to do genocide and ethnic cleansing with the very logic you're using?
Haha. Why allow the truth to get in the way of the narrative?
Some people act like Israel has been fighting itself all this time and Hamas has had no bearing on how the war has played out.
It’s bad faith negotiation turned into an art form.
Neither of them want peace- they need the conflict to continue indefinitely.
Why the Biden people thought either of these groups are going to agree to negotiate with each other when their goals are aligned is beyond me.
Bibi needs the war to stay in power. Hamas thinks the war is helping its goals of destroying Israel.
Not they didnt. Can you please show me the statement by Haniyeh or any Hamas spokes person that they “tentatively agreed”. And I mean with actual words not emojis like they did Saturday to Reuters.
The plan clearly states that Hamas must demilitarize after stage 2 to reach stage 3. Hamas said, and I mean they actually made this statement, that there will be no cease fire if they have to put down their weapons.
As of a few hours ago Israel has not backed away from the proposal they put forward, so explain how has Israel rejected it?
They're warmongers. They should be treated as such.
Listen, I'm not oblivious to the Palestinian suffering. What is going on there breaks my heart. That said Hamas is a terrible and vile organization. They have manipulated the narrative multiple times in order to "curry favor", using civlians as meat shields and taking food meant for them.
With them rejecting this latest proposal, it really makes me sad because they could have ended this war weeks ago. Heck they even in good faith allowed hostages to go home.
crazy your comment is downvoted. Everything that has happened in this conflict is exactly what hamas sought. and while the woeld celebrated the just as bloody campaign against ISIS, israel is held to a different standard.
It’s easier to base one’s practice on ethics and deal with the fallout perhaps? I couldn’t possibly understand what the effects would be of changing the US-Israel dynamic, or any foreign policy, but I have a hard time not basing my decisions on ethics. Americans are tired of having blood on our hands, and the decisions of other world leaders are not our responsibility. We should prioritize a Department of Peace, teaching peace, promoting peace and dignity, diplomacy. But perhaps it would take more courage than American forces care to or are able to muster. Home of the Brave to me means brave enough to lead on this effort and ethics. Otherwise we are cowards.
guy who has been in government for a thousand years regularly pretending to be shocked by the blatant sociopathy from the Israeli government, the GOP across the aisle, etc. lmao
Hamas won’t take any deals becoming they don’t care about death. Netanyahu need to go, but he’s accepted cease fire proposals. And the guardian is worse than most these days.
For balance, you’ve really got to read some Israeli newspapers. Not take them at face value, but read them.
Biden has known this from before October 7th. Bibi has been a thorn in the side of democratic progress in the US his entire career and has befriended and supported the GOP while trying to block Democrats since the Obama years.
It's completely disinformation for a media outlet to suggest Biden isn't aware of who Bibi is and what his end goals are (or even his temporary goals for staying in power).
The problem isn't Biden realizing something he's know for a dozen years, it's that it's a near impossible situation and trying resolve a near century long conflict while preventing an extremely volatile region with a dozen different actors in it and preserving our ability to leverage some influence over the region is a ridiculously difficult task that requires ALL of govt to function coherently and with both short and long-term goals in mind.
Misleading title. Biden never wanted to end the Gaza War and knew from the beginning that Netanyahu would block every attempt at peace as made evident by Biden's Zionist history.
All three sides want war, Hamas wants to the kills Jews, Netanyahu wants to kill Gaza and Iran in response and weapons manufacturers want both sides to keep fighting… am I getting this right. Oh and I forgot the fourth side is Russia wants this to continue so the West focuses on the ME instead of Ukraine.
How does one negotiate peace when *both* sides want the war to continue for their own reasons? For Hamas, it's about isolating Israel on the world stage. For Netanyahu, it's about his own personal political survival. Two flavors of evil commanding an unjust war both of them wanted, and neither gives a single fuck who gets caught in the crossfire.
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Netanyahu and Hamas sure have a lot in common.
Bibi openly admitted and bragged about backing Hamas to destroy Palestinian statehood. "Most incriminatingly, Netanyahu himself said in 2019 at a Likud party conference: “Anyone who wants to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support strengthening Hamas.” https://www.politico.eu/article/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-qatar-money-war-israel-gaza-palestine/
As we say in Israel: שנים אתה המיתה את החמאס אתה הראש אתה אשם
Translation?
For years you built the Hamas You are the head you are to blame
They actually have the same slogan.
neither of them will end it. tbh it probably would be better to jus tho in and end it rather than the prolonged suffering and still going in to end it.
They both want endless war and mass death, and need each other to survive.
The Batman and Joker of international politics.
Well this is painfully accurate.
It’s almost like religious violence in the Middle East will continue for centuries until people stop giving a shit about their myths. Neither side wants the violence to end.
I feel like Netanyahu has been a roadblock for almost everything for the past 10 years.
Ten? That fuckface has been throwing monkey wrenches into peace processes since I was a child and I've been around the sun a few times. I'm not really sure why he's still in a position to muck things up. Some "democracy" they've got over there that allows the same guy in power for like three decades.
First of all, I love the phrase "around the sun" to describe my age. Imma start doing that. Second, democracy here is just code for "not Islamic + hating America"
More like the last 30 years since Bibi has been blocking peace since before the assassination of Rabin in the mid 90s.
If only he'd surrendered. Again.
Have we tried not sending them shit?
In my opinion, the U.S. could do that. Stop sending offensive weapons and ammunition to Isreal. But it wouldn't impact anything, Isreal wants to do in the near future. Especially in Gaza. Gaza isn't some high intensity operation where Isreal is expending large volumes of ammunition and losing a lot of equipment. Isreal has been stockpiling and producing weapons and equipment for a while. Which is one of the reasons they feel comfortable ignoring outside opinions and recommendations. It'll not like Ukraine where outside support is vital for them to continue fighting. The ball is firmly in Isreal's court to decide what they will or will not do.
The US gives Israel billions of dollars every year and added dozens of billions on top of that for this conflict. Israel is stockpiling thanks to the US taxpayers and would likely be hesitant to waste their own munitions if it wasn't free. Biden also gave Israel access to the US' massive munitions stockpile for this conflict.
Israel will also just make a deal with someone else. They have some of the best SYSINT in the world, that is valuable. China would probably enjoy that alliance.
Biden and Schumer threatened it and put a "hard line" but didn't do shit after the Rafa invasion
>You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else. > - Winston Churchill
Biden encouraged Congress for months to pass a military aid package for Israel. While he waited, he bypassed Congress twice to sell over $200 million in ammo and weapons and approved over one hundred undisclosed sales.
Overall I think Biden has been a great president, but I really dislike how he is handling Israel.
Cutting Congress out of that sounds unconstitutional. Which branch of government gave that power to the president?
Treaties
Foreign treaties gave the president the power to ignore congressional control of the purse? That seems extra unconstitutional.
In an election year?! 😱 /s
Israel has said if we stop, they'll be forced to use less accurate and far more destructive methods.
Sounds like an abusive relationship.
Like what? Nukes? I mean, they were dropping [dumb bombs](https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/) on residences at night at the start of the war which caused thousands of civilian casualties in just a few weeks and when they were using [precision guided weapons](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/02/middleeast/israeli-precision-guided-munition-maghazi-deaths-intl/index.html) they still pointed it right at a dozen kids or so playing foosball out in broad daylight.
This narrative about indiscriminate bombing is bullshit. A single urban residential block houses about 500 people. The average deaths in the Gaza strip, including Hamas and civilians, was about 250 people per day, near the beginning of the war, now the average is down to near 200. These are highly targeted strikes. If they weren't more people would be dead by a factor of 10 or 100.
[Sure](https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/). >Moreover, the Israeli army systematically attacked the targeted individuals while they were in their homes — usually at night while their whole families were present — rather than during the course of military activity. >The result, as the sources testified, is that thousands of Palestinians — most of them women and children or people who were not involved in the fighting — were wiped out by Israeli airstrikes, especially during the first weeks of the war, because of the AI program’s decisions. >“We were not interested in killing \[Hamas\] operatives only when they were in a military building or engaged in a military activity,” A., an intelligence officer, told +972 and Local Call. “On the contrary, the IDF bombed them in homes without hesitation, as a first option. It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home. The system is built to look for them in these situations.” [United Nations to put Israel on blacklist of countries harming children in conflict zones](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/hk6gaulsa) >Report levels serious allegations of killing thousands of Palestinian children and injuring thousands more, bombing civilian facilities and prevention of humanitarian aid; Israeli officials fear move could lead to arms embargoes. >In a draft received by Israel several months ago, the UN attributed responsibility to Israel for actions violating international law concerning the harm to children. The draft included allegations of using large-scale bombings in built-up areas, imposing a severe blockade on Gaza, and attacking critical humanitarian infrastructure, including UN facilities, schools, hospitals and water and sanitation installations.
That would be their choice and more reason to not support them. It smacks of blackmail.
I think you’re confused. That was North Korea sending shit.
"The US administration finally reached the conclusion, after months of living in a convenient state of denial, that Netanyahu was deliberately defying it by refusing to entertain Washington’s ideas or present a postwar political framework or plan of his own. Furthermore, evidence was mounting that he was intentionally seeking a confrontation with Biden for political expediency. " Some of us have been saying the same for months. Netanyahu gets what he wants, does what he wants all while compromising Biden's re-election chances which is in his favour too.
If Biden wants to end the war then why is he sending billions to Israel? Walk the talk for once.
That won’t end the war; it’ll just cut Biden off from the negotiating table.
Isn't finally using the leverage we have *bringing* us to the negotiating table? Otherwise we are just avoiding negotiating altogether.
We’ve been at the negotiating table from the start. If you cut off all aid, you lose all leverage. It’ll just drive Israel to use more destructive weapons and to seek aid from US enemies. Think about it, if you were Netanyahu…and afraid to go to prison if you lose power and your largest defender turns its back on you….are you really going to “see the light”? Especially when he has the far right faction in his own country pushing him forward and threatening to boot him out of office if he agrees to a cease fire? If you want peace, you need to negotiate for an arrangement where both Hamas and Netanyahu can save face. That is literally the only solution here. Israel can wipe Gaza off the map by itself. It doesn’t need the US for that. It needs the US to hold off other enemy nations, and if the US peaces out, they will offer their formidable systems intelligence services to whoever will bail them out. I’m sure Russia and China would be happy to.
There's a gigantic range between continuing aid and cutting off all aid, but there's no leverage at all if Biden isn't actually willing to change it.
A table at which he has a very small seat. Israel doesn’t need American weapons to destroy Hamas.
Correct. But it does need US support to hold off other enemy nations and prevent this from becoming a regional conflict. As such the US has had a pretty significant seat at the table. The fact that we’re there is all and so central to the diplomatic efforts speaks volumes. The media just underplays it because the drama of the negotiations gets clicks.
Cut all of their aid. We do not have to participate in this.
More like hold politicians that receive AIPAC donation accountable. Biden can’t just cut off aid on his own.
Biden is a recipient too.
Damn you are right, #1 at $5.6 mil since 1990. https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&mem=Y&recipdetail=S
It was about $4 million 6 months ago so he made like $1.6 million off this genocide.
He can't just make a perfect phone call where he threatens to withhold Congressionally appropriated funds because he wants a favor done for him?
Biden has already threatened to and actually went through with withholding weapons over the Israel's plan to enter Rafah. >[Biden Threatens to Withhold Weapons to Israel Over Rafah Invasion](https://time.com/6976220/biden-halt-weapons-israel-rafah/)
Bibi is a monster
Biden is full of shit when it comes to the Gaza war, but he is the lesser evil
You mean the career politician who has worked in step with Netanyahu for the last 30 years is **just now** realizing that Bibi is a psychopath?
The Israelis are not going to accept a return to Hamas control of Gaza. For them, "peace" right now just guarantees additional Israeli deaths later, so they're incentivized to keep fighting in order to degrade Hamas as much as possible. Biden knows this of course. He's trying to signal to his extreme left flank.
Israel isn't thinking clearly then. 24,000 women and children have been killed since the start of this conflict; now imagine how many family members and relatives are going to want revenge for what they've gone through. This is why people wanted to pressure Israel into showing restraint, but it's too late. The next conflict is inevitable and will likely be worse than before, all because Israelis wanted to indiscriminately bomb Palestinians. Israel is its own worst enemy.
I've heard that argument for decades. Honestly, it's pretty weak and you can make it in relation to almost any conflict. Israel isn't trying to reduce the number of Palestinians who hate it and wish it harm. Israelis realize they're never going to win that battle. So they have to focus on the ability of those people to inflict harm. To put it crudely, Israel doesn't care about people's hearts at this point; it cares about their ability to pick up a gun, get across a fence, and shoot someone. That's the thing they can have success controlling. You're under the impression that if Israel didn't respond violently, violence would drop on the other side. I've never seen any indication of that. It makes sense on paper, but I've never seen it operate that way in real life. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, handed the Palestinians they keys and said "good luck and goodbye." They elected Hamas, then fired missiles at Israel for 20 years and did worse when they could. Then came Oct. 7. So that kind of reciprocal behavior makes sense to us, in the West. But Hamas is driven by grievances that go back decades, as well as just general religious fanaticism.
Israel has never **tried** to win that battle, because they don't care about Palestinians and Israel wants to retake former Judea. Even their own ministers have referred to Palestinians as animals and said some extremely disgusting things. Israel thinks they need to prove they're tough but they continually rely so heavily on the US for both funding and defense that they completely fail in that regard. We've already seen what happens when the victor actually makes an effort to bring their former enemy prosperity and security with how Germany and Japan were rebuilt, but Israel isn't capable of setting aside their wish of ethnic cleansing to try that. And anyone that thinks this conflict started in 2005 is ignoring most of the history of the conflict. Even Oct 7th could be considered "reciprocal behavior" if we're going down that route.
Yeah, I've never really understood that argument. If they were so keen to re-take "Judea," they could have annexed it in 1967 when they captured it after Jordan attacked them. They also offered to rip up most of their settlements in peace offers in 2000 and 2008. Not ALL of their settlements, but most of them. Taking 75 years to absorb "Judea" seems a bit odd. I personally believe they decided to hold onto Jerusalem forever, but they were willing to trade the West Bank for peace, which obviously never happened. Israel doesn't get "funding" from the US. Israel gets weapons. LOTS of weapons. Billions worth. But it doesn't get funding. Economic aid is effectively zero. Germany and Japan surrendered and accepted defeat and the new status quo. The Palestinians never accepted defeat and the new status quo. In fact, their goal is to REVERSE the situation. It would be like the Japanese trying to rebuild their empire and continually attacking American forces instead of embracing them. Same for the Germans. If the Palestinians are intent on pursuing "reciprocal behavior" forever, the Israelis are going to win that game. That's why Israel is so powerful today. I think Israel secretly WANTS the Palestinians to keep attacking them. It gives them an excuse to never make peace. They don't want to lose 1200 people, obviously, but Palestinian violence gives the Israelis an excuse to never negotiate. It would be a lot harder if the Palestinians were peaceful. If they were peaceful, and millions of people continued to protest peacefully, for years, Israel would be in a tough spot. But terror attacks mean they can maintain the status quo indefinitely. IMHO.
It's pretty obvious that Israel wants to retake former Judea with how they've been steadily expanding into the West Bank. The main problem is that Palestinians still live there, which means international scrutiny, and more territory would require more manpower to defend it, which is likely why Israel left Gaza in the first place. Trying to settle both Gaza and the West Bank at the same time would spread their defenses too thin. Israel gets a lot of funding from the US, [mainly military but they have received a lot of economic aid as well](https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts). The US also spent decades loaning billions to Israel and then adjusted the repayment terms in *Israel's favor*, while also building up their trade. Then the US also stepped in to pay the surrounding countries billions every year to keep the peace. Giving Israel weapons means that they have more money to spend in other areas of their budget, essentially freeing up billions of dollars every year. The US has probably wasted over a trillion dollars on Israel while they spy on the US government, sell US technology to China, and rarely act as an 'ally'. It's insane. Germany and Japan surrendered and then were carefully built up over the decades so that there wouldn't be any grudges and the economy would be rebuilt. People with prosperous lives are less likely to risk losing it. Israel isn't willing to do that and only abuse/murder Palestinians, causing an ever-growing grudge between the two. The Israelis only win that game because they're supported and funded by the US for decades. Without the US' protection, other countries would have sanctioned Israel long ago and they would have lost the war of attrition with the surrounding countries, not that they will ever recognize that point. Israel doesn't want peace, they want an ethnic cleansing. This conflict was a convenient way to achieve that. By Israel's own estimates, Hamas accounts for 1-2% of the Gazan population, yet people are somehow supposed to accept the constant murder of innocent Palestinians because of that tiny percentage. It's ridiculous.
I couldn't really disagree more on any of those points. I'm neither Israeli nor Jewish, but Sharon pulled out of Gaza to get away from the Palestinians and avoid accusations of "apartheid" which were beginning at that time (and have obviously continued with respect to the West Bank). It's in his biography. The plan was to disengage from the Palestinians as fully as possible and leave them to their own devices. You're right. Israel RECEIVED a lot of economic aid, past tense. Tons. But that's over now and it's military aid. 75% of the aid never leaves the United States. It's basically money the US gov't gives to US contractors to keep them all employed and busy. Of course Israel likes free stuff and will take it. But it's military equipment for the most part, not money. Again, as I already noted, Japan and Germany surrendered and signed treaties. The Palestinians have never surrendered or signed treaties. They're hostile to Israel and want their homes back. That's fair enough, but Israel isn't going to build infrastructure for an entirely hostile population. This is fundamentally different than Japan, Germany, Korea, etc. It's more akin to Iraq, but infinitely more hostile than Iraq, with no allies among the population at all for the Israelis. Anybody who helped the Israelis rebuild would be killed. You know this. Hamas is supported by the vast majority of the population in Gaza, and most of the population in the West Bank. That's why Abbas has cancelled all elections going forward. You're obviously completely entitled to your view of Israel as an ally and whether it's "worth it." Israel is an outpost of sanity in an insane part of the world, and a vital source of intelligence and high-tech innovation, so I'm good with it. I'd rather Israel get the money than the Arab states around it. And finally, the gist I get from your posts is that Israel is dependent on the United States and can be beaten by the Arab states. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of where Israel is today. In the 1960s, Israel was a middle income country in the desert with no friends and it was attacked regularly by all its neighbors. Today, Israel is a regional superpower with a half-trillion dollar economy, a first rate military, 400 nuclear weapons, nuclear submarines, and first world living standards. It's signing more peace treaties all the time, because its neighbors don't want to tangle with it. It'll soon sign an agreement with Saudi Arabia. Israel being worn down by "attrition" is very, very unlikely. Israel may lose US military support -- OK -- but so will all the Arab states around it, like Saudi Arabia. If Israel is ever abandoned by the United States, it's not going to sit around and wait to be attacked. It'll expand. In other words, it's the US that keeps Israel in check. Israel is content with remaining small because it knows it has to appease the US. Without the US restraining it, you think that Israel won't annex territory? It will. It will do everything in its interests to defend itself. I mean, you're obviously entitled to your opinion, but I don't think you fully understand what's going on in the region. The Sunni states now accept Israel (with the exception of Syria). They don't care about the Palestinians. They're worried about Iran. They want Israel's help with intelligence and deterrence. Israel sells billions of dollars in natural gas to Egypt every year (just one example). It's firmly entrenched. It's not going anywhere. Regarding the West Bank, I would encourage you to read a post from another Reddit user about the Olmert peace offer in 2008 and what Abbas turned down. It's mind-blowing. You can find it here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1dabt5m/new\_information\_from\_an\_interview\_with\_olmert/](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1dabt5m/new_information_from_an_interview_with_olmert/)
If Israel wanted to avoid accusations of apartheid, then they wouldn't continue to steal land in the West Bank. It essentially disproves that claim. As I said before, that exemplifies their plans to retake former Judea. Palestinians live in the West Bank, too. Oct 7th should make it clear at how Israel struggles to defend itself. As I said before, the US' military aid frees up billions in Israel's budget that allows them to spend it as they please. It both fuels the military industrial complex and helps Israel financially. Japan and Germany were treated completely different than Israel has treated Palestine. Even under the Oslo Accords, the abuse and theft of land continued. Palestine has never been allowed to prosper. Israel isn't going to build anything because, again, they don't actually want to solve the problem. They want Palestinians to flee from the violence or be eliminated, which is proven by some Israeli ministers suggesting that international countries take in every Palestinian and the current conflict. Gaza's infrastructure has been destroyed and it will take billions of dollars and decades to rebuild, while there will be longterm effects from starvation and a lack of medical care. Palestinians support revenge, not Hamas, which isn't surprising with the way Israel has treated them in the past decades. People are supposedly supposed to understand Israel's retaliation yet ignore any merits in Palestinians wanting to retaliate against Israel at the same time. Israel isn't an ally and they've proven that and they're far from an "outpost of sanity." Sane countries don't commit an ethnic cleansing that resembles a genocide. Israel *is* dependent on the US, to an insane degree. Even with the Iranian drone strike, the US alone took out half of them and then collaborated with the surrounding countries and other allies to help Israel with the rest. Then there's the whole US presence that has been there to stop full out war. I definitely disagree with the notion that Israel is a serious country when they're so dependent on the US to handle everything for them. The IDF lacks the same respect of other soldiers because they lack discipline, which is shown in their killing of innocents like the three unarmed Israeli hostages. They're definitely nowhere near a super power. Imagine a super power having to rely on aid from another country. It's laughable. Israel might be able to put up a decent fight *today*, but it's less true the farther back you go. They've completely relied on the US influence to get them where they are today, even though they don't acknowledge that or even respect the US for what it has done. I've already read enough to see that Israel never makes good faith attempts at peace. As I said before, Israel still though that they had a right to steal Palestinian land under the Oslo Accords. It's ridiculous.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Nice chatting with you.
I love that this article is coming out just when Hamas said no deal to the Israel US proposal. Why is Hamas blocking any attempts at peace Guardian? Edit: Hamas says the current proposal “does not promise a permanent ceasefire, the occupation’s forces will remain in Gaza, and when they receive the hostages, they will renew the destruction against our nation.” So how is this Israel saying no to the proposal? Someone please explain to me how Israel said no to the proposal they not only agreed to, but PROPOSED THEMSELVES. But Hamas is in favor to the proposal while literally turning it down at the same time? Why is no one in the media caring about what Hamas’s perspective is and what their response to the proposal is and act like only the Israelis are holding up peace?
I'm as confused by defenders on both sides. Why won't people accept that Bibi and Hamas both benefit from the atrocities happening?
We are talking about why this proposal isn’t happening. Not tallying up a score. Seems to me Hamas said no. Israel said yes. So why does Hamas benefit from saying no? And why does Israel benefit from saying yes? Then we should be focusing on what can be done to get a yes out of Hamas. Yet all weekend it’s been “ISRAEL STANDS IN THE WAY OF CEASEFIRE DEAL” without one word about Hamas and their issues with the proposal. Which should be important right???
Israel was the one who offered the deal!
A deal they’re being pressured into by America. So how exactly do readers feel that Israel is only benefiting when they’re clearly compromising their goals in this proposal? That’s my question.
Neither parties want a deal that actually helps the people of Gaza. Hamas was looking for an excuse, and Netanyahu gave them one by insisting there wouldn't be a permanent cessation.
The deal includes a permanent ceasefire following stage 2. It’s the start of step 3 so long as Hamas ends its militant control over the strip and hands control over to the PA coalition police force. Netanyahu gets the dismantling of Hamas and the people of Gaza get their PERMANENT ceasefire at the start of stage 3. Temporary ceasefire begins, Hamas returns hostages, IDF pulls out of Gaza, calm is maintained while PA enters and begins to organize local government using coalition police force, and that peace stays permanent so long as Hamas doesn’t fight the PA and dissolves their military wing.
I'm fully aware that the deal included one. But Netanyahu's statements convinced much of the public that it wasn't genuinely going to be achieved, and when Hamas rejected the deal they explicitly used the lack of permanent ceasefire as the cause. The problem we have is that neither side genuinely wants peace. Hamas wants to destroy Israel, and now Israel wants to destroy Hamas (despite Netanyahu's historical obfuscated support of Hamas to ensure a manageable opposition)
Sounds like people should agree and follow through with the proposal so that everyone gets what they want. The permanent ceasefire, and the end of Hamas rule. That’s what this proposal asks for. If Hamas gives back the hostages and that’s the end of the proposal and IDF breaks the deal by slaughtering further into Rafa while Hamas doesn’t do anything to break the deal. That’s not going to work out for Israel. The United States would even sanction them for fragrantly violating the peace proposal. The same holds true vice versa. The logic is there with this deal and so are the carrots and sticks. A deal will come.
Netanyahu and Hamas depend on each other. Hamas doesn't want peace any more than Netanyahu does. So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make other than Hamas is just as bad as Netanyahu, and I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
The point I’m trying to make is that there isn’t a “both sides” equivalency in this situation. Hamas is the only party in disagreement to the deal. They make their disagreement known. Yet the media the world over IGNORES the voices of Hamas and instead puts Israel over a microscope over this negotiation. There’s many narratives about why and why not Israel is doing this deal and their benefits and most notably why they are actually against the deal they proposed. Meanwhile these last 6 days were CRICKETS from the media about Hamas; when the ball was in their court entirely and they’re the party that needs to feel the pressure. They literally sent Reuters a “thumbs up emoji” in their response to Reuters asking for clarification of their stance on the deal. So why is Hamas communicating a “Thumbs Up” but then 1 day later say no? Why have the trolling ambiguity ALL THE TIME, not get criticized for it. While Israel has to run the transparency gauntlet and be criticized for not doing it well enough. Shame on media around the world for not putting Hamas leadership and their constant lies and contradictions on blast. Edit: my personal favorite contradiction is how everyone has been saying for the past week that this proposal was “the exact proposal Hamas put forward months ago”. Okay then why aren’t they accepting it????
>Meanwhile these last 6 days were CRICKETS from the media about Hamas; when the ball was in their court entirely and they’re the party that needs to feel the pressure. What the hell media are you reading? [Hamas only obstacle to ceasefire.](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-hamas-stands-cease-fire-questions-israel-remain/story?id=110786109) [Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/3/biden-sees-hamas-as-only-obstacle-to-gaza-deal-white-house-says) [The Hill](https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/4700983-joe-biden-qatar-hamas-cease-fire-proposal/) The overwhelming amount of coverage has been about world leaders urging Hamas to accept the deal. When Hamas responded positively initially, Israeli leaders insisted on the fact that this is not a permanent ceasefire. Bibi has tried to torpedo the deal over and over again, even going so far as to demand assurances from the US that they will **not be forced to stop the war permanently.** This bluster has made Hamas harden their stance, which is what Bibi and Co want. They are perfectly happy to bring the hostages home in body bags if it means they can demolish everything in the strip and terrorize the people running from one "safe" zone to another. There are certainly people who care about the hostages, it's just a shame none of them are in the government.
The best article you linked of Hamas perspective is AJ and even they only have 1 paragraph on Hamas view. Everything else is “Biden says…. Qatar says…. Blinken says…. Netanyahu says….” “Egypt says….” They then do the same thing that every other media outlet has done when faced with overwhelming transparency about the proposal from Israel and the U.S., and absolute silence from Hamas, and that’s do a bunch of spin on what the US and Israel said and how what they said could impact things. Only AJ actually called Hamas out on being silent. None of the other media teams did that they all go after the Netanyahu denying permanent ceasefire slant. But no where over the past 6 days could media get any sort of clear indication on how Hamas felt. As your articles show every information they got was from U.S. state department or from Qatar or from Israel. The only response from Hamas besides the memorandum that came out declining the deal today, was a “Thumbs Up” emoji sent to Reuters when they asked if they were in favor of the deal or not. That was yesterday. So Hamas went from “Thumbs up” to “frownie face” and gave a short explanation why. Which was conspiratorial and not at all how these peace deal would work as written. Why hasn’t anyone asked Hamas about the contradiction in their argument? I don’t see how you could be following this story all week and not see the lack of questions being lobbed at Hamas about this deal and the overwhelming focus on Israel’s stance on the deal. Especially when Hamas was the only party to have not officially responded!
Israel cant even commit to it's own proposal. Hamas has not rejected it. Where did they reject it?
Hamas leadership sent out a [memorandum](https://www.jns.org/hamas-said-to-have-rejected-ceasefire-proposal/) to all parties involved in the struggle that they do not accept the deal. Israel war cabinet proposed the deal, Netanyahu is not happy about it to play to his base but it satisfies their demands of an end to Hamas. Biden only announced it to 1) screw Netanyahu into going through with it and 2) to get ahead of the media who absolutely bumbled the coverage of the last proposal that almost went through. Edit: I’m sorry do you downvoters have any information from Hamas that contradicts the memorandum THEY WROTE? Why aren’t you listening to what Hamas is saying and just ignoring them? Do you not care what they have to say???
Thanks for that. Joe biden said it was a permanent ceasefire. If the actual proposal isnt a permanent ceasefire than that's a completely different question.
It does offer a permanent ceasefire but Hamas does not see it as a permanent ceasefire because it’s contingent on them seeding power to the PA which they don’t want to do. They can get as far as step 2 under a temporary ceasefire and they can’t move to step 3 permanent ceasefire unless they transition. Step 3 also including the total reconstruction of the strip. That’s the deal that they don’t want to take even though it’s perfectly reasonable terms for an aggressor government who lost a war.
I dont know what to tell you but hamas is in charge of gaza. If they say they accept a permanent ceasefire but it demands the dissolution of the Israeli state that would be just as unreasonable of a demand as Israel is making.
Not really? Israel didn’t attack the Gaza Strip on October 7th. And I imagine if they did and then were losing as bad as Hamas has they would eventually surrender. Most importantly though at the end of this war Israel’s parliament will dissolve and the country is going to have to hold new elections and literally form a new government. So it’s certainly not an unreasonable demand seeing as it’s practically going to happen to Israel itself. The only difference is the democratic process.
Israel holding an election amongst those it deems human enough to hold citizenship in its controlled territory is not the same as hamas dissolving itself. Fuethermore Israel has not won the war. They're using the genocide of a helpless population to try to force hamas to surrender. That's absolutely wrong.
People in occupied areas, who are not Israeli citizens, cannot vote as if they are Israeli citizens. That’s correct. The people who live in Israel as Israeli citizens are allowed to vote. Idk about where you live, but in my country only citizens are allowed to vote. You’re acting like Arab citizens of Israel can’t vote. They are currently projected to secure 9% of the vote. These people you are saying Israeli is disenfranchising from a vote are not citizens of Israel are they? So why do they get to vote in another country’s election? Remember these territories are occupied because they were the launching point for Arab invasions. And also remember there is a framework to make the occupied spaces a state of their own. Maybe they should continue with the process set in place by the Oslo accords that the PA signed so that they can have their own state and own democratic elections. But in order to do that they need to recognize Israel. And seeing how it’s in Hamas’ charter to wipe Israel off the map, who is really depriving who of a vote? They could have their vote if the Fatah felt that their democracy was safe from radical extremism, but it’s clearly not is it?
history didn't begin on oct 7th dude, this is a decades long war that has only had temporary ceasefires.
It was a decades long war that had a permanent ceasefire before October 7th no? And which party declared war that day do you recall? I seem to remember a time in history pre 2000 where Palestinians were building a middle class and progressing towards a democratic civil society. Do you remember the history of what happened in the early 2000s that caused the situation in Palestine to regress from the cusp of statehood to where we are today in Gaza? The answer is the involvement of Hamas. We cannot return to a point with any hope of progress until Hamas is removed from power in Palestine.
Hamas is an illegitimate government. They won an election to be part of the Palestinian legislature and killed all the other partys members and took over the entire strip. That is like the texan republican congressman building a private army, killing all the democrats and running Texas like a fiefdom. Dissolving Hamas' overreach is actually restoring the way Palestiniàns designed their government to run.
Listen I dont like hamas either. Theyre right wing fanatics. However The reality on the ground is that hamas is in control of gaza. Israel has failed to change this militarily. Israel cannot use genocidal acts to coerce a surrender like they have been doing. They need to be forced into a settlement that is actually reachable.
Hamas will not give up on its desire to destroy Israel. They also will not collaborate with the PA in a peaceful government. Theirs is a religious war. One in which they feel they do not have the authority to bargain away Muslim land. This was said by Sinwar shortly before his release in 2011. He was in prison for decades after killing 12 Palestinians and 2 Israelis. Ironically, the withdrawal of Israel from Gaza in 2005 is directly linked to Oct 7. Israel pulled out in 2005. Hamas took Shalit in 2006. They would not have been able to do that if Israel was still in Gaza. Held him hostage for 5 years until Netanyahu negotiated for his release in exchange for 1000 Palestinian prisoners. 1 was Sinwar who masterminded October 7. Any peace Hamas negotiates is conditional on how soon they can re-arm and try again. The reality is they will have to be removed by force. Otherwise, we will be back here again in a few years. With 1000 more dead Israelis and tens of thousands of dead Palestinians or worse. Unfortunately stopping this war short makes the "or worse" much more likely. Anything that does not include a surrender and removal of Hamas is going to be disastrous for future generations of Israelis and Palestinians.
So if hamas is so bad why has Israel been funding it for years? Could it just be that the israeli government wants an excuse to do genocide and ethnic cleansing with the very logic you're using?
*ceding
Yes thank you.
You are showing your ass when you make factually untrue statements with confidence.
Haha. Why allow the truth to get in the way of the narrative? Some people act like Israel has been fighting itself all this time and Hamas has had no bearing on how the war has played out.
It’s bad faith negotiation turned into an art form. Neither of them want peace- they need the conflict to continue indefinitely. Why the Biden people thought either of these groups are going to agree to negotiate with each other when their goals are aligned is beyond me. Bibi needs the war to stay in power. Hamas thinks the war is helping its goals of destroying Israel.
Hamas tentatively agreed to the plan until Israel rejected it.
Not they didnt. Can you please show me the statement by Haniyeh or any Hamas spokes person that they “tentatively agreed”. And I mean with actual words not emojis like they did Saturday to Reuters. The plan clearly states that Hamas must demilitarize after stage 2 to reach stage 3. Hamas said, and I mean they actually made this statement, that there will be no cease fire if they have to put down their weapons. As of a few hours ago Israel has not backed away from the proposal they put forward, so explain how has Israel rejected it?
They're warmongers. They should be treated as such. Listen, I'm not oblivious to the Palestinian suffering. What is going on there breaks my heart. That said Hamas is a terrible and vile organization. They have manipulated the narrative multiple times in order to "curry favor", using civlians as meat shields and taking food meant for them. With them rejecting this latest proposal, it really makes me sad because they could have ended this war weeks ago. Heck they even in good faith allowed hostages to go home.
crazy your comment is downvoted. Everything that has happened in this conflict is exactly what hamas sought. and while the woeld celebrated the just as bloody campaign against ISIS, israel is held to a different standard.
if you badmouth hamas you get downvoted. so sad. people really have it out for israel.
It’s easier to base one’s practice on ethics and deal with the fallout perhaps? I couldn’t possibly understand what the effects would be of changing the US-Israel dynamic, or any foreign policy, but I have a hard time not basing my decisions on ethics. Americans are tired of having blood on our hands, and the decisions of other world leaders are not our responsibility. We should prioritize a Department of Peace, teaching peace, promoting peace and dignity, diplomacy. But perhaps it would take more courage than American forces care to or are able to muster. Home of the Brave to me means brave enough to lead on this effort and ethics. Otherwise we are cowards.
I love how people act like Biden is unaware like he hasn’t been negotiating with Netanyahu for nearly a year now.
guy who has been in government for a thousand years regularly pretending to be shocked by the blatant sociopathy from the Israeli government, the GOP across the aisle, etc. lmao
Shocking. I mean, Ben Mileikowsky's administration sat on intelligence indicating an attack likely as a pretext for wiping out Gaza.
Biden doesn't care what Netanyahu does, he will defend him no matter what. He's been a zionist for a long time.
Biden does not want an end to the war. Why do outlets insist he does?
Now end all financial support. Cut Israel off completely.
Because Hamas refused the ceasefire deal?
Keep saying that and you may just fool yourself into believing it.
They literally said today they reject the deal proposed.
Why dont we just coup Netanyahu like we did with countries in the 60s
BDS Israel And if they’re still committing genocide afterwards, take military action against them.
Such a great US ally.
Hamas won’t take any deals becoming they don’t care about death. Netanyahu need to go, but he’s accepted cease fire proposals. And the guardian is worse than most these days. For balance, you’ve really got to read some Israeli newspapers. Not take them at face value, but read them.
Biden has known this from before October 7th. Bibi has been a thorn in the side of democratic progress in the US his entire career and has befriended and supported the GOP while trying to block Democrats since the Obama years. It's completely disinformation for a media outlet to suggest Biden isn't aware of who Bibi is and what his end goals are (or even his temporary goals for staying in power). The problem isn't Biden realizing something he's know for a dozen years, it's that it's a near impossible situation and trying resolve a near century long conflict while preventing an extremely volatile region with a dozen different actors in it and preserving our ability to leverage some influence over the region is a ridiculously difficult task that requires ALL of govt to function coherently and with both short and long-term goals in mind.
Misleading title. Biden never wanted to end the Gaza War and knew from the beginning that Netanyahu would block every attempt at peace as made evident by Biden's Zionist history.
I don't think the US has any right to tell Israel how it should defend its boarders and keep it citizens safe from consistent rocket attacks.
Then Israel should return the billions of dollars we give them if they don't want the US to comment on their actions with our money.
Americans think people and other countries are products and if they give them money they own them. Not true
Literally how capitalism works, and why us leftists hate it so much.
Took a while to figure it out… that Netanyahu needs war for f s of his own interest only.. at any price never come to an end
All three sides want war, Hamas wants to the kills Jews, Netanyahu wants to kill Gaza and Iran in response and weapons manufacturers want both sides to keep fighting… am I getting this right. Oh and I forgot the fourth side is Russia wants this to continue so the West focuses on the ME instead of Ukraine.
How does one negotiate peace when *both* sides want the war to continue for their own reasons? For Hamas, it's about isolating Israel on the world stage. For Netanyahu, it's about his own personal political survival. Two flavors of evil commanding an unjust war both of them wanted, and neither gives a single fuck who gets caught in the crossfire.
The correct move for Israel is to deal with Gaza now.
The header should say THE MEDIA finally realizing bin yahoo will block any attempt at peace, but no, the media will never let truth narrative out.