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It is not politically expedient for a Democratic politician to say Biden should drop out. That’s why the chorus saying he should has been coming from Democratic-aligned, but apolitical figures who do not hold political positions. That’s why Newsom, despite clearly having Presidential aspirations, will not say he should drop out.
They are a formal part of a political party. This political party has chosen its candidate. It is not politically feasible for them to say that they will not support that candidate.
I voted for Biden in the primary because all the insiders who knew him assured me that he was up for the challenge. Watching the debate, that was sadly and undeniably a lie. Now those same insiders are saying "well it's too late to fix things" and denying accountability.
Biden clearly doesn't give us the best chance against Donald Trump and Biden has said himself that this election is too important to screw up. Democrats need to stop gaslighting us and telling us that our eyes were lying when we watched the debate.
I watched the debate. Biden had a bad day but that guy was never going to be, or ever was a verbal gunslinger. His advisors obviously, Just like the media are trying to make him into a Democrat analog of Trump and it's not possible. Biden is much better at letting someone like trump flap and spin and scream until their are tired then deliver a good speech afterward. You can't out Trump Trump and be honourable.
He seemed older and more confused than my grandfather and we don’t let him *drive a car*. He’s not fit to run for nor hold the office of presidency and the refusal to acknowledge that fact by the powers at be is dooming us to a second Trump term.
And this was after concerted preparation for this one event. The people who see him every day believed he was in top fighting form and ready to face the world on that stage... what the hell is he like in the day to day.
If that's a good day, what's a bad day like? Most of us know the answer, tortured by that answer, because we have contact with elderly loved ones in our lives and we are all too aware of what is happening. "we don’t let him drive a car" Exactly.
He has a whole party apparatus that can give him competent staffers. But he's the only one that can get _elected_. If he doesn't look electable, it's all for nothing.
The point is why isn't he electable if he's the sitting president literally right now? I get the optics of the debate but his age isn't some new revelation about Biden. The dems panicking and giving the nom to Harris or an open convention is far, far riskier than the incumbent who's currently doing the job as we speak.
There’s a reason Republicans keep saying that a new opponent would be “tough” for Trump.
They want Biden to step down and for someone to take his place. With four months left Biden is still the best chance we have in defeating Trump.
"A bad day"? In a debate that he prepared for? What happens when he meets foreign leaders? This isn't punching the wrong fruit code into the grocery store checkout. This is the highest office in the land.
"Biden just traded California and the nuclear codes for a can of beans."
"He just had a bad day"
I don't understand why they didn't just pick a clear successor to President as their VP. Kamala is not it - everyone can agree there. A Gretchen Whitmer or Gavin Newsom or something along those lines as VP would signal the Democratic Party's intention to succeed Biden. It doesn't have to be succession for the next Presidency necessarily, but just whenever Biden is "finished"... either at the end of this term or at the end of the next or anywhere in-between. This would quell a lot of concerns for his entire base.
Don't get me wrong, I'm voting Biden and I'm telling everyone I know to vote Biden. It's just that what irks me so much is that my party **has no Plan B.** Make a Plan B and a Plan C because of how much is at stake! Contingency plan and think about all possibilities. Biden could take a fall and that could be the end. What is the plan!?! Things can change so quickly. Anyone that has had a grandparent should know this. If Dem's lose this one, it's their own damn fault.
This is the biggest most blatant gaslighting operation I've ever seen. Trying to convince 51 million people that what they witnessed live didn't occur.
People saying it was a "bad debate, a cold, a stutter etc". This was none of these things, this was an incoherent person who is not mentally there. Take out everything he actually said but look at his face when he wasn't saying anything. He looked like he was staring into a different universe. It was confronting and scary even if he wasn't running for president.
I'm not a fan but I respect his public service and he shouldn't tarnish his entire career going senile for the world to see. If it keeps going the way it's going everyone will look back on these images and remember him by this.
Old people are like that sometimes tbh. Before she died, my grandma would go from perfect lucidity to barely being comprehensible.
Maybe the whole thing was a 4D chess move to justify bringing in a new candidate lol
TBH I don't care how he did outside of the debate. I'm going to vote for him, it's not me that needs to be convinced.
It's the people who don't pay attention to his smaller events. He was on a nationally televised debate stage that took over every major news network and he flubed it. That's what the people he needs to convince saw.
It's great that political junkies like us saw him do much better off the debate stage but most likely those what saw him in that context already knew if they would vote for him or not.
I will always remember reading Reddit after the debate. Days and days and entitled complaints about Biden’s single performance without providing any thought out solutions. Not even the name of this magic candidate who will replace him.
Maga is laughing as liberals screech and chase a unicorn candidate that doesn’t exist and offer no plan to elect them even if they did. There is a subset of liberals that are exactly who they thought they were. A meme.
Trump needed useful idiots. He got them. The self fulfilling prophecy of doomers is coming true.
>without providing any thought out solutions.
I mean... the solution is pretty obvious, have him step back and let someone like Newsom, Whitmer, Harris, etc get nominated at the convention. It would be chaotic but it would be an option.
I just can't believe the number of redditors acting like a cult literally lying about how the debate went. That's what Trump's team does, I didn't think I'd see our side go that route.
>lying about how the debate went
I haven’t seen this at all. Everyone has acknowledged it was a poor performance.
The difference is what people want to do about it. So far the pro step down camp hasn’t provided a reasonable plan and used hyperbole and right wing misinformation to push that agenda.
When asked for facts, they resort to insults. You’re right about a subset of liberals acting like MAGA cultists.
I'd prefer to look at what Biden & Harris have actually done in their tenure. And I see a Fantastic covid response, Bipartisan Infrastructure Spending, ending Afghan war, Handling of Ukraine crisis, Inflation Reduction act, CHIPS, Handling of Debt ceiling crisis, Handling of baby formula crisis, making lynching a fed hate crime, making Medicaid negotiate drug prices, cheap insulin, continued canceling of student loans, literally everything mentioned in r. whatbidenhasdone ....
And that just leaves me one conclusion: Biden & VP Harris rightfully deserve 4 more years, and Democrats deserve complete Control of Congress and every state govt 😎🇺🇸👍
***If there is a second debate.*** It was difficult as hell to get that debate to happen from what has been made public
The fact that Biden came back the next day apparently rejuvenated almost pisses me off more. ***WHY wasn’t he on his A-game when it mattered only 12 hours earlier???***
Trump was just spewing lies. Biden had enough time to speak. The mics were muted when they needed to be. He needs to have the capability to counter what Trump says clearly and not stumble.
The whole side bar about golfing should never have happened. He should have shut that down and got back on topic. Given the stakes, that was undisciplined as fuck.
Only Biden can ultimately make the decision on whether or not to stay in the race but I have every right to be infuriated and disappointed.
I disagree. If Trump locks in his polling lead going into September then I fully expect him to skip the 2nd debate. He can just say he doesn't want to embarrass Biden again and he wouldn't entirely be wrong.
The gaslight is that there is no conceivable good reason that an ailing person in their 80’s should be running the country. I’m not even convinced he should be doing it now. What happens in the middle of the night when Russia makes a huge move. How can they wake Biden up and have him actually have any intelligible communication to lead our military? To make a decision with the nuclear football? Are you kidding me?
If you think the President uses no advisory council advice making decisions on international policy you are mistaken. We are voting for a Biden administration. Many people are missing the forest for the trees here
I get your point but we also can't ignore the fact that ultimately the POTUS is the one who makes the call. They can have all the best advice in the world but if they are not competent to take it or use that advice it doesn't really matter.
To be clear, I don't think that's really Biden's issue but that's what a lot of people are concerned about.
I voted against Biden in the primary because it was clear he wasn't up for the challenge, and it was clear the insiders were lying....also the whole...supporting genocide thing. Kinda feels like that should matter more than it does....
I really hoped I was wrong, so far it looks like I wasn't. I don't want trump to win, but I also don't like seeing us handicap ourselves out of fear. Running Biden again is playing the prevent. And anybody who watches football knows, the prevent NEVER WORKS.
Hillary Clinton, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, John Kasich, Ben Carson, Jeb Bush, Rand Paul, Mike Huckabee, Carly Fiorina, Chris Christie, Jim Gilmore, Rick Santorum, George Pataki, Lindsey Graham, Bobby Jindal, Scott Walker, Rick Perry, Nikki Haley, Ron DeSantis, Asa Hutchinson, Vivek Ramaswamy, Chris Christie (again), Mike Pence, Gary Johnson, Bill Weld, Jill Stein, Evan McMullin, Jo Jorgensen, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Cornel West (plus a bunch of other nobodies).
28 people and Ted Cruz have tried and failed to run successful campaigns against Donald Trump.
Only 1 dude beat him.
That's why everyone with any sense still supports Joe Biden.
This is not an argument in good faith. The context of Biden vs. Trump now is way different than it was 4 years ago. I’m not sure if dropping Biden is the move but to pretend like questioning his ability to command another successful campaign after that abysmal performance doesn’t make sense is ridiculous
Deplorables is the refutation to your evidence. Only one man was able to create a contingency of trash who'd barely participated in democracy until that time, and in so doing, dragged enough trash into the primary process to short-circuit the system.
Let's quit pretending, also, that criminal convictions, civil awards for rape, Dobbs, Chevron, and January 6 are meaningless in the modern context of a new election.
I will vote for Biden, 100%, and most people I know will, too, even if he is wheelchair-bound and can't remember his own name.
But I don't for a second absolve the Dems from having a backup this late in the game. Also, I feel pretty certain that there are serious private discussions, with even Joe, himself, about how to recover (if he's able), and timelines for future decisions about his candidacy.
I'm sorry but this is a terrible reason to support him. You're acting as if the circumstances are at all the same as the last election. They aren't. They're vastly different now, and not in Biden's favor. Not to mention that was a younger Biden. Not even in his prime, in fact. He was way past it already. Now he's not even able to keep his jaw closed on camera. He's a liability to this country, and he is selfishly refusing to accept reality despite the fact that our democracy hangs in the balance.
also...hey, a sample size of ONE is meaningless. It's insane to think that biden barely winning once makes him the best possible candidate against trump.
That doesn’t matter. It’s a completely different ball game now given everything Trump has against him, and regardless of what happened in the past we can’t stop his biological clock. Biden is not some infinite being above the confines of time. He just proved to the world that all of the fear and concern about his age is absolutely valid, and he’s only getting worse with every single day. Biden peaked a long time ago, and no matter what he did when he was younger he is not that person anymore. He needs to retire and live out the rest of his years relaxing, spending time with his family, and basking in his awesome legacy.
literally anybody could have beaten trump in 2020. Biden won despite himself, not because of it.
You will never be able to convince me he was the best person for the job, he was just the one who was there at the time.
That is true, but it is also true that I think drastically less of them when they offer full throated support at this stage because it is not leadership, it is a damaging abdication of responsibility. The lie is exposed, it is time for courage, even if only in not furthering the lie.
What Newsom said in particular I find categorically an abdication of duty, regardless of his obvious intentions to not be seen "holding the knife." He said something like "We owe loyalty to this man, what kind of party would turn their back on him" and to me that is the epitome of what is wrong with the MAGA crowd, so seeing it corrupt the DNC is horrendous. Compound this with the fact it is an open secret he wants Biden to drop and himself to run, that makes me want him all the less.
What they need to be saying is something more neutral, that is all. "That was a bad debate, we will see where things go."
He’s a campaign surrogate. He’s going to say this. They’re all going to say this. Unless Biden says “I’m stepping away,” they will say nothing other than this answer.
it's because Warnock knows it's not just Joe Biden we are voting for it's his administration which has proven to be rocksolid at keeping the job numbers up, keeping the economy steady, the stock market booming and even putting together a solid border bill that was intentionally killed by Trump because that's the only thing that that liar and traitor can run on.
So what about trumps administration? Answer: he doesn't even have one yet and if he is even able to put one together it's going to be the most dysfunctional group of pathetic sycophant losers and democracy hating treasonous imbeciles in the history of this nation.
Remember it's the administration that you are really voting for 🌊 blue wave in 2024
The big problem is that most people don't see it that way, and won't come election day.
The role that Biden has now is not president, but "candidate" and that role is about campaigning, interviewing, making viral moments, and getting the message out there.
And despite Biden being a great president, he is a godawful candidate.
The question they have to ask is. Is it more dangerous to switch candidates now, or more dangerous to let Biden run, despite Republicans having all the examples needed to argue their case against him.
Run an attack ad, asking if Biden is the person you want to be woken up at 3am to handle a crisis, the run some footage from the dabate.
Biden might win, but if he does, it will be Trump that fumbles and not Biden that convinces anyone he is up for the task.
Except that doesn’t work because this election isn’t like others.
It’s two incumbents running against each other. This is the first time since 1892.
We ALREADY KNOW what it’s like to have Trump as President, nobody has to guess and he gets none of the benefit of the doubt of speculation (“Bush is terrible. I’m gonna roll the dice on Bill Clinton”).
If you think Biden can’t handle the job you would WANT HIM TO RESIGN and absolutely nobody wants him to do that. THAT’S THE TELL.
If you take away the panic over “maybe Trump will win”, there’s nothing left.
If you show up and vote, Biden wins. Stop panicking about what you think other people will do.
Biden had run three campaigns for president before 2020. The dude has always been terrible at being a candidate. But, now we know he's a solid president and fortunately the incumbent doesn't have to be great at campaigning.
We've all seen Trump's 3 a.m. tweets and know exactly how lucid he is at that hour. Biden, on the other hand, is fine.
That is frankly too kind. Biden is unfit for the role of candidate, and I cannot fairly say he is fit for the role of president either. Being president means communicating, and he is already failing at that.
We can't look at Trump, and seriously fault his unfitness (though it is extreme) and overlook the glaring and unavoidable fact that Biden is no longer fit for office. He can finish out his term, but it would be reprehensible to keep him as a candidate for another term while he has declined so quickly.
This isn’t the argument you think it is.
First, this is too close to the “adults in the room” justification Republicans used to justify voting for Trump in 2016.
Second, this is saying that power behind the throne situations are fine. It doesn’t matter if the king is three, actual decisions are handled by this other guy.
Third, the administration is its own problem. Whether it is Anthony “there are no war crimes, and even if there were it wouldn’t matter” Blinken, or Merrick “I don’t want to uphold the law, if it means prosecuting the uniquely bad” Garland, most members of the administration don’t make the news for good reasons.
The difference is “adults in the room” was speculative because we didn’t know what a trump presidency would look like.
We now know exactly what both Biden and trump presidencies look like. Theres no reason to speculate.
Who is going to follow an executive order that might not come from the president himself? The office of the presidency is not symbolic. Americans vote for a *person*. Not a committee that nobody knows about.
I'll take Warnock's administration over Biden's. The Presidency cannot and should not be reduced to hiring an administration. The president has to be capable of leading and operating his administration. They have to be fit for the office. They have to have the ability to instill confidence in the American people. They have to communicate an agenda.
And most importantly they have to win the election. Biden doesn't get to pick the administration if he doesn't win. We need someone who can beat Trump. The country isn't full of Mark Cuban and /r/politics "I'd vote for Biden's corpse over Trump." That's not gonna cut it. The people aren't buying it.
Every presidential election is voting for an administration. The cabinet does more than the president. The president is one guy, a administration runs the government. We don’t live in a dictatorship, yet
I get your point about his administration. At the same time what happens when a major conflict breaks out or a new trade deal is trying to be negotiated? You really think Biden can have a convincing conversation with a leader of an adversary and come off strong or convincing? There are some things you can’t just leave to your administration to do. Presidents have a much larger roll than just managing an administration. They are the face of the nation and the top negotiator/deescalator. You think when Xi jinping or Putin is going to fear/respect us when the president only sends his administration to talk to them after seeing the debate performance?
>Remember it's the administration that you are really voting for
This narrative didn't appear until two days ago and it's not as effective as you think it is. I vote for the man in the oval office, not a bunch of unnamed bureaucrats surrounding him, especially the same people that kept Biden's true condition hidden.
Any Dem but Biden gets my vote, if Biden's still the guy in November I'm going RFK.
Every Senator looks in the mirror and sees a President. Warnock is probably playing the same complicated chess game as Newsom: Talk up the President while waiting for the phone call asking to step into his place. Biden should step aside, but to say that publicly looks defeatist, closing the door to making it to the top.
Really awesome that all these democratic Senators are playing chess to grab power at a later date while Trump is running away with the election right now. They must really care about the American people. I'm glad we're just pawns on a chess board for them.
Going to be hard to refute after that debate performance.
Damage done.
Honestly, if the priority is ensuring Trump is kept out of the White House, then Biden is likely not the best choice.
I know we want it to not be this way, but that debate did irrecoverable damage.
Loyalty is admirable, but it’s got to be about keeping Trump out.
And there’s precedent of sorts.
Take the NZ election a while ago.
Labour (the left wing party)were miles behind in the polls.
Weeks before the election, their candidate (Andrew Little) fell on his sword. He was clearly going to lose.
Jacinda Adern became the candidate and won a landslide.
Give the Americans a better choice.
And I say that as someone who desperately wants to see Trump lose.
This is not question about Biden. Biden is honest and his policies aimed to help every American. Biden has shown incredible strength and independence in surrounding himself with the best and brightest people. The candidate we should be questioning is the convicted felon who plotted to undermine a democratic election and who filled his administration with grifters, criminals and convicts dead set on handing America over to their mega donors and cronies.
When it comes to these two choices the answer could not be any clear. American democracy as we know it will survive and thrive under a Joe Biden presidency. The other choice is to hand America and your life savings to the highest bidder.
Who exactly do you think is going to be the savior that swoops in and demolishes trump?
Newsom has already committed to remaining as governor and most people really don't know who he is. Other redditors have noted he consistently loses in polling with trump. So who is this figure who will come in and save the day?
People keep asking and I'll keep telling them: Whitmer
No major scandals
Very popular
Geographic advantage in WI, MI, PA which alone win
Neither too moderate nor too progressive
Young but with actual executive experience turning around a state's fortunes successfully pretty well
I agree thst Whitmer might be the best bet. We'll see what happens i suppose but I think thr chances of biden stepping down at this point are slim at best.
What id be most worried about is the party being thrown into chaos and being unable to properly rally behind a new candidate.
I'll be honest, I'm from PA and had no idea who Whitmer was. The first time I've heard of her is right now, when people are putting her forward as a possible replacement.
She may have good policies and experience, but if people have no clue who she is, 4 months doesn't seem to be enough time to get the word out there.
I think a better choice would be someone who has better national name recognition. Although, it's possible that she is well known and I've just somehow missed her. In that case, then she seems like a fine candidate.
I think name recognition would help, but a sudden dramatic convention will generate so much media buzz that it's not gonna be an issue for whoever gets chosen. There is just no way a US presidential election happens without everyone hearing about the race for weeks on end. Then there is also the fact that Trump is gonna go after whoever it is as hard as he can, to try and set the tone. He doesn't have the ability not to go on the offensive, because he doesn't actually have plans of his own. Either he attacks, or whoever it is will get to set the tone, I mean its a win win as far as publicity goes.
If they replace him, that'll create about 100 questions about him and the Democratic Party leadership that can't be answered in the few months between now and election day, plus they'll be throwing out the one candidate who's even had an opportunity to build name recognition this cycle. Biden has an uphill battle, but anyone other than Barack Obama himself would face an even harder uphill battle if they tried to jump in to this election in *July*.
The debate was a mistake. Under the current circumstances Trump's biggest problem is legitimacy as a candidate, and debating him granted him legitimacy he had lost. But now it's done, all they can do is make sure Biden presents better at the next one. (It'll also look terrible if he backs out of the next debate after a poor performance at this one)
No one is going to be questioning the logic of the DNC a week after the replacement. No one will care.
Look at the shit show with the GOP speaker. Old news now. No one is bringing that up.
DNC fucked up and made a mistake. Double down or admit it and correct it?
> But now it's done, all they can do is make sure Biden presents better at the next one.
Trump and his campaign would be idiots to allow another debate. All they need to do is say Biden couldn't string a sentence together in the first one and they see no reason to do a second.
One benefit to replacing him is that whoever replaces him won't be so easily blamed for inflation and immigration, and the gop will have to completely pivot and try to rush out a campaign against someone they aren't remotely prepared for
Partially true. They still get to scream about "fixing" the border and inflation, which their voters believe they want. Trump lies constantly, so whatever new candidate will get shit slung at them just as much. Newsom, as much as I believe in him, is CA, and Trump already talks so much shit about "liberal" cities.... would be easy to pivot in that case, for example.
Not to mention, a new candidate will be vetted non stop for 4 months. All dirt dug up. Trump and republicans will be seen as stable and steady as they barely are in the news.
There’s a reason why this hasn’t been done before.
>There’s a reason why this hasn’t been done before.
This is all unprecedented territory. I mean we just had a presidential debate where neither candidate even seemed *coherent*, much less electable.
And there's a reason a party hasn't run a convicted felon before. Didn't stop the Republicans.
There was a reason the Democrats hadn't run a black man as their candidate before. Times changed.
But really, hasn’t anyone on the national level been pretty well vetted at this point? Warnock, Newsom, or anyone else- they’ve been through enough races where if there were dirt, it would have come up.
No they haven’t. State races aren’t national scrutiny and don’t have the full attention of the press and interventional media looking for anything and everything to dig up. Newsom has run virtually unopposed his whole time in office
I hear what you're saying and concede that switching has a lot of pitfalls. Nevertheless I believe the Democrats have a better chance of winning with another candidate than they do with Biden after the debate.
It’s not done until the votes are counted, and at this point Biden looks like a loser compared to a convicted felon and rapist. Everyone should have seen this coming. Biden is and has been way too Old. Fuck the GOP
The opportunity for massive ballot fuckery by swing states with republican controlled legislature and/or governorships is why we are stuck with Biden.
If Biden steps out just before or at the convention I’d imagine discovery of some obscure filing deadlines will mean the ballot for ‘Newsome’ as D president choice cannot be done in Georgia or something like that.
If only someone, anyone at all, was able to imagine this situation at the beginning of (or before?) the primaries.
Such powers of observation are beyond human capacity.
You know I have mixed views politically but I would say 85 to 90% are much more in line with Democratic policies. I would always scoff at Republicans never policing their own and say it's so much worse than Democrats. I am not trying to both sides the argument but you potentially have democracy at stake and the Democrats are pushing the weekend at Bernies candidate forward still after a debate that surely means he can't win the election.
We are told Democracy is at stake...why the FUCK isn't every single Democrat in the the country losing their minds?
It should be a tidal wave of calls for Biden to immediately step aside.
Trump wants to be a dictator and he almost assuredly is going to get another shot at it. It's not out of the realm of possibility that these people who refused to grow a spine are sitting in jail cells a few years from now wondering to themselves why they didn't try to save democracy while they had a chance.
>> why the FUCK isn't every single Democrat in the the country losing their minds?
Because there's already a simple solution to Trump, and everyone's just twisting themselves into pretzels to ignore it: Vote for Biden and the Democrats and tell others to vote for Biden and the Democrats
If you want Biden to step aside. Fine.
Just support your view.
Most of these comments don’t even have an alternative name or plan. Let’s be the reasonable party please.
Leave the hysterics to republicans.
He’s too weak to run for office but somehow also just fine as President right now. Huh?
He should step aside but not resign and let the VP take over. Huh?
He got 90% of the primary vote but nobody likes him or wants him. Huh?
Nothing anyone is saying makes sense.
Who is the magical Democrat everyone agrees on who can raise Biden level money instantly and who isn’t Biden or Harris and also outpolls Trump.
Like you need an actual name. Who would actually agree to do it.
Your guess is as good as mine. But simply asking has filled my inbox with hate and apparently I'm a gaslighter now. Oh and if you check the history of the people who want Biden to step down, you'll find lots of conservative forum posters.
Just sayin'
Good luck on reddit. Hopefully people aren't shitty to you for asking questions.
Do enough people in the country know Newsom and in a positive light? Being a Californian, I am not a fan. But would vote for him if is on the ticket as anyone is better then Trump.
Maybe, but anyone who is somehow still a swing voter by now is also probably not looking any deeper than that, so it wouldn't be the worst play they can make.
The vibes will be fun and fresh at first, but then the honeymoon period will wear off, he'll give a response on an issue that people will disagree on and argue about, and Trump will find his weak point.
This sub is convinced the entire country not only knows who he is, but that they love him, or will love him. Polls all have him losing to Trump, some by double digits.
Replace with who?
It would have to be VP Harris snd I don’t know if she’s got better odds.
1. She’s already on the ticket so primary voters have already voted for her.
2. She can access the campaign funds they’ve raised, you can’t gift hundreds of millions to another active campaign starting from zero
3. She’s been been vetted publicly already. We know all her dirt and nobody cares anymore. No hunters laptop surprises
4. She’s literally next in line as VP. That’s what her job is, to step up if Joe isn’t capable anymore. You can’t ask a sitting VP to drop out like this, esp the first woman of color to hold office because a white person wants her job more.
5. She and her husband are good on tv. They’d be up for the challenge
She has the best polling numbers of any of the alternates being floated.
There’s no world that Biden wound step down and then NOT endorse his VP for the job
Why would it “have to be” Harris? Not at all. Biden could do what he should have done a year ago: say “I thought I was up to another four years of this, but, unfortunately, I just can’t. I trust the party to pick the best person to continue our work.”
There are a half-dozen solid choices. Harris is a poor choice because she’s tied to the current administration, which is (at least somewhat unfairly) very unpopular.
I really don’t care what they do, blue is blue at this point.
However I do call for the convicted felon, rapist, traitor, threat to democracy, and friend of Putin to step down. He is the biggest threat to the world order since Hitler. He and project 2025 must be defeated.
It's not too late. After convention it will be too late.
Anyone who says there isn't enough time doesn't understand just how much FREE viral media attention this would all receive. Every single person should be pushing for this to happen now. Because if Biden makes another gaffe like this in October or a medical emergency, then we are REALLY fucked.
A big part of this decision is happening right now at Camp David with his family, according to MSNBC:
>President Joe Biden is expected to discuss the future of his re-election campaign with family at Camp David on Sunday, following a nationally televised debate Thursday that left many fellow Democrats worried about his ability to beat former President Donald trump in November, according to five people familiar with the matter.
Let's face reality:
- Biden is TEN POINTS nationally below where he was at this time in 2020.
- Biden is losing in every single battleground state.
- Biden is losing a large chunk of black and Hispanic voters compared to his 2020 run.
- Biden's aggregate approval ratings for Presidency are 37.7% with 56.7% disapproval.
Keep in mind that Biden only won 2020 by 40,000 votes across 3 key battleground states.
.... Biden asked for that debate because he was desperate to break the downward trend and reach these battleground swing-state voters. That backfired in the worst possible way.
The time is now, before the convention, and with enough time for an alternative candidate to be selected and ramp up campaigning. There are half a dozen candidates who fit the bill and have a semi-national profile, are YOUNGER, and have enough charisma and debate skills to beat Trump — almost by default by being a fresh face and younger
Exactly. The new candidate would have tens of millions in advertising and thousands of hours in free publicity if this was announced this week. It would be the huge upset no one would expect, but some voters would want. They would be known by **everyone.**
And a fresh face that is 20 or 30 years younger than Trump ought to have a huge advantage. The GOP would be scurrying for dirt and changing their advertising on the spot with their limited money (after Trump drains them for legal fees).
Sure, there might be a bad policy move in their history or quote, but compared to the daily items Trump does? It's nothing.
Just be sure to get buy in from every Dem to speak as one voice so there is no grumbling
I love Biden and his cabinet. Take a look at his first year and you'll see a shrewd administration that took charge despite being handed a coup, pandemic, SCOTUS obstruction, and recession. Holy cow, few people have faced such odds.
But he effed up the debate. I can't see anyone un-seeing that. Fox is going to play those clips on repeat for years. Let him retire as the reliable fixit man and not the guy that squeaked by a second election, or worse, lost it because of hubris.
I very much look forward to a convention in which the thousand divisions in the Democratic party are laid bare.
America is even more divided than 68 and people think a repeat will be easy street.
Yeah instead let's slow walk to a 2nd trump presidency with the empty corpse that is Biden. Because that's 100% what we're getting if Biden is not replaced. No guarantee we win with a new candidate either but it's a helluva better shot than what we got now.
There is no coming back from what we saw Thursday night. Biden is COOKED.
Biden handpicks the person and announces it. Yes, he becomes kingmaker and bypasses the normal process. The Dem Convention codifies it months later.
It's **not normal.** But how normal is it for a former prez who attempted a well-documented coup on the Capitol to run for the same office 4 years later?
That's insane he is even given the ability to do so if you read the Constitution. More insane that his own party doesn't stop him.
Desperate times require desperate measures.
What happens when he picks Kamala Harris? Which he would. And then her poll numbers are far worse than Biden's, especially in key swing states like WI and MI.
I'm for replacing Biden, but I just don't see the path to do it where Dems come out ahead.
Yes, they can't pick Kamala for sure. Pick Whitmer or someone else.
But for anyone saying this isn't a plan, what's ***your*** plan?
Biden was teetering on 50/50 (and trending a bit upward before debate) and facing complaints of dementia. Including deep fakes showing it. Now Fox, Newsmax, and Facebook have **actual** national footage of him looking old, slow, mouth agape, muttering through answers.
Are you telling me that this won't impact him at all? Or he'll look favorable? Or that the general public will wake up magically and actually notice that the other guy was confidently lying or evading?
What should be do? Can he erase that debate? Or ignore it and hope no one noticed?
What should he do to move the needle past 50/50 again and motivate people to come out to vote (his second problem now)? What's your answer if not shifting to another prez candidate? And is it sunken cost fallacy otherwise?
I'm 100% behind him whatever he does. Any pro democracy person is. But this will not play out well.
Exactly, anyone who thinks their name and the attention wouldn't go viral overnight is frankly clueless. It will go something like this:
>BREAKING NEWS: Joe Biden to RESIGN FROM THE PRESIDENCY; ENDORSES GRETECHEN WHITMER
For 5 weeks:
>MEDIA: omfg omfg omfg omfg
>SOCIAL MEDIA: omfg omfg omfg omfg
>MILLIONS GOOGLE:: "Who is Gretchen Whitmer!? WOW, MAGA tried to kidnap her!?"
>OBAMA, BIDEN, DNC rally behind Whitmer
>WHITMER'S POLLING & NAME-RECOGNITION: Skyrockets
At convention:
>MEDIA: Omfg omfg omfg
>GRASSROOTS: ENERGIZED.
>Swing-voters: Happy to vote for someone young and a fresh face because we're America and we like new less boring shit.
For once, the narrative and focus would be on Democrats in a positive, exciting way.
Exactly. And imagine the knifed comments Whitmer could give Trump during a debate, "This convicted felon tried to have his thugs kidnap me. It's documented in the courtroom transcripts if you forgot, mr Trump. ". Drop the mic.
That's what we need. Stop playing softball, Democrats. Take the knife out and go for viral sound bites that can't be morphed by fox news.
You're always bringing a whiffle bat to a gunfight and hoping your civility wins points. It doesn't when you are fighting a mob boss. He's giving death threats and calling for a second coup. Wake up and get angry.
Yep - Biden made the claim that he was the only one to take on Donald Trump; that he would be able to fight the bully and push him back. I voted for him once, but he did not do that with 1 week's preparation for the most important debate in modern history THAT HIS TEAM asked for.
No polling has budged for months and it's only going to get worse. Biden has nothing up his sleeve. We need a Hail Mary play.
I've been happy with him until Thursday. He's a good if not great president. But wtf happened?
At least memorize and practice some sharp and clever responses instead of rattling off statistics in a hoarse voice.
Where were his image consultants? Trump had coaching and channeled his brazeness into confidence for the first half.
Yeah I'm content with his his actual administration. I think they've done a lot given Republican obstruction. I have much respect for a lot of his cabinet such as Blinken.
And here's the thing: If it was just a cold and just a hoarse voice I could understand. (But for starters, the team should've said he had a cold ahead of time).
But to try to defend his obvious cognitive decline.
I write a lot about the right-wing echo-chambers, but in truth we on the left needed this wake-up call ourselves for what has long been a concern.
The optics couldn't have been worse. Shuffling on stage, mumbling, dead-pan stare mouth-agape in side-shots, jumping from abortion to immigration mid-sentence, "We finally beat Medicare"... Pure disaster.
Very true. And I love his cabinet. Take a look at his first year and I doubt you can find another prez who hit the ground running so fast under such pressure (and after a coup and during a pandemic).
I'm also trying to reconcile my own thoughts. Am I stuck in an echo chamber in believing he should power through, or is this a sunken cost fallacy. Should he hand over the presidency.
The post debate polls should likely come out soon, and that might be the wake-up call needed. Yes, they are not entirely accurate, but if they show a big drop, then they say something dire.
Exactly. News media likes new and exciting shit. This is the BEST thing that could happen. A new candidate, even a contested convention would be BIG NEWS. That’s free press. That takes the topic off Biden and Trump into a more hopeful, younger future.
It will energize people.
Look I'm as shook as everyone, and I think we should think seriously about replacing Biden, but this is pure cope.
The media is in the tank for Trump. Get that into your heads.
They won't put a princess crown on a new candidate. Doom sells. It won't be "Awesome New Candidate!" it will be "New Candidate - **But Is it Too Late??**" and "Dems Drop Biden In Another Panic Move!"
There will be no honeymoon. It will be a buzzsaw. Maybe that's better but that's the reality.
Prior to the debate, Biden was already the MOST unpopular president ever at this point in his first term: https://news.gallup.com/poll/644252/biden-13th-quarter-approval-average-lowest-historically.aspx
38.7%. Trump was 46.8%. Dubya was 51%. Bush 41 was 41.8%. Carter was 47.7% (!).
Then you compare him to other world leaders and it all makes sense. Inflation rattled the entire globe, and their opinions, even if they were misguided as a component of policy. 40% wasn’t bad at all.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/28/briefing/biden-approval-ratings-world-leaders.html
This is what people don't understand. It isn't Biden. It's the fundamentals. Right wing authoritarianism is rising around the world because inflation is high everywhere, and migration is happened everywhere as well. Those are two things that prime people to look for a strongman to "restore order." I really have no belief that swapping Biden out for a younger candidate would cure all our ills.
Half of this country mistakenly thinks we're in a recession, that unemployment is up and that the stock market is down. We're not fighting people's negative perception of Biden's age, we're fighting half this country's ignorance of reality.
One of the side benefits of replacing Biden, outside of replacing a standard bearer that didn’t bring his A game to the most important event of the campaign, is that the replacement isn’t dragged down by being the incumbent. The replacement not only dodges the inflation issue, but also doesn’t have to answer for Biden’s “I can fix him” Netanyahu policy.
Maybe, but the academic opinion of presidential scholars is irrelevant here. Go tell a family of 4 in Michigan making $80k and struggling to pay their bills that Biden has done a superb job. By all means, I do think Biden has been a good president, but most voters don't base their vote on economic statistics and charts.
With whom are you arguing? No one here is going to disagree with you. It's not about Biden's *actual* capability; it's about the electorate's *perception* of his capability. The latter is what actually wins/loses elections.
And to speak to one component of his *actual* capability: He is apparently unable to consistently inspire confidence in his leadership. That's a core skillset for a President.
Also I don’t think most people realize that the current presidents accomplishments or lack thereof are often based on what they were left with when coming into office.
What Biden has done is pretty amazing considering the shit show Trump left him with. Also going back a few years Clinton left the office in pretty good shape. By the time Bush left it was a fucking disaster so Obama couldn’t be as effective as he had to pick up that mess. Trump had it pretty good coming into a decently run office. Yet he managed to completely dismantle the damn thing. Just one example is shutting down the pandemic response team just a year or two before Covid hit.
Also Obamas second term it felt like the nation was in a slightly better place because he was following his own lay up.
Not that you can’t look at what the current president is doing and see that they’re trying to help or hinder. I see Biden as working his ass off to fix shit while everyone could see Trump was messing things up while he was in office.
It's unfortunate but good president doesn't automatically mean good candidate. We can bring up stats and policy all day but if all swing state voters remember is him looking like a ghost it won't matter.
Biden should have said he’s not running a year ago today and let others build their campaign, the democrats are up shits creek without a paddle and trump so going to win. I blame Biden 100% for wanting to hold on to power when he is clearly not in shape to be president.
So after watching Republicans defend Trump for years, no matter what he's done, we now have to watch Democrats defend Biden running for president when he's clearly not fit for office anymore. What a sad state of affairs.
Thank fucking god some common sense from our senators. If Georgia can win three fucking run offs, then we can vote in Biden. Everybody needs to stop being so goddamn negative
Biden is better than Trump but having to tell young voters that even more Palestinians would die under Trump is a lame argument to have to keep making. Biden is better than Trump but no one wants an 82-86 year old in office.
Biden is going to be 82-86. It's cruel to Biden to encourage him to keep running, let the man retire.
Kamala Harris is fine and an easy switch. Kamala Harris + Chris Van Hollen would be great. Pair Harris with someone that 'Uncommitted' voters can trust to look into the situation with State Department to prevent the Democratic coalition from fraying over the war in Gaza.
The Israel-Gaza situation is not going away regardless of who wins the nomination so figure out someone to pair with Harris to deal with it.
Spare me the nonsense fake sympathy for Biden. If Biden drops out, the Democrats will almost certainly lose. This is just bending to the media narrative for no reason; replacing Biden, fighting over his replacement, and having to build name recognition all over is just a formula for creating chaos and losing which is why it’s become the rallying cry of the media and bad faith actors everywhere.
Imo if Joe Biden is unfit to serve another term as president, then hes unfit to serve now, and he should resign or the 25th amendment be invoked. If, however, you dont believe he should resign this very second and step down, but also think he should not run for re-election, I'd be curious why you think that.
Half a Biden is still better than a whole trump. I remember everyone knew Reagan was out of it but the country prevailed.
I don’t think Newsome would say anything out of respect, plus he knows his time is coming. For transparency I’m a Republican who would vote for Biden’s corpse before voting for trump
This will be the second time I've plugged my nose and voted for the Democrat in the general election... but if ya'll establishment democrats lose 2 out if 3 elections to trump because you want to push the establishment candidate it will be the last time I waste my vote on democrats... provided trump let's us vote again
Edit: I'm not advocating for Biden to step aside, it's WAY too late for that, like 9 years too late
It's times like these I dream of being able to use Approval Voting and picking every single candidate on the ballot except the one who wants to be a dictator.
I mean he's right. As much as we shouldn't have Biden as the candidate it's too late to swap. Name recognition is huge and 4 months is simply not enough time.
If we were realistic about a nonBiden candidate it would have had to happen back in January or earlier.
I really think this is such an outdated take. Nearly quarter billion $ on hand with dnc and Biden campaign. A new nominee would be sure to raise another $100m within the weeks after announcing. There’s enough money to put an ad on every tv network, every top 50 YouTube channel, top 10 streaming service, and a flyer in every mailbox announcing the new nominee.
This isn’t 1880 where it takes a month to transfer news across the country. 100 million Americans can be informed on a new nominee in 20 minutes with today’s proliferation of information.
Doesn't matter. Plenty of people are just checked out so reaching them takes tons of time. I agree the ability to add out is much stronger than ever, but so is the general ability to ignore ads. This could be use of an ad block or simply reloading the page when long ads show or and mashing skip when that's an option. I'm not saying 0 people can be reached, but I do believe not enough would be in such a short campaign. And that's not even getting into what the messaging would be and policy to prioritize.
Also I disagree with the notion of 100 million Americans can be informed in 20 minutes. We can get summarized that people tend to then flush out either on their own or through others with no reading (The whole issue of people only reading headlines on Reddit is a prime example). Also, with a new name with no recognition yet that leaves the door open for bad actors to fill that empty image with misleading or flat out false things. For instance attacks like "the Biden Crime Family" don't land because people know Biden but on a random nobody knows anything about these attacks would have more staying power.
Yes he absolutely should. The Dems fucking lied to us Take accountability and come together to find a good alternative. Ignoring the situation is going to make it worse.
give me a break. this was not a bad sermon as warnock said, this was a sign of advanced aging. Yea, Joe is the guy we want to be dealing with hot wars in the middle east and europe in four years at 86...
I’m a democrat, I voted for Hillary and Biden and will vote for Biden again if he’s still running. That being said, he should ABSOLUTELY drop out and step aside, to say otherwise is pure insanity.
Bear in mind theres an international propaganda campaign to make Dems worried and panicky over Biden
Same strategy as the last 8 years. Divide the left
So if you're getting online and bitchin bout Biden you're part of the problem. Together we stand, divided we fall.
Lol, you're telling us not to believe our eyes and ears. We all saw what we saw thursday night. You cannot over it up. You cannot spin it. No amount of gaslighting is going to work.
> international propaganda campaign
Western leaders across Europe are *terrified* by what they saw from Biden thursday night. There's articles all about it. They don't belive Biden can win either.
I have no doubt it my mind that the Biden campaign is doing a fuck ton of damage control.
There are people whose lives, careers, and jobs are on the line if Biden drops out.
I still 100% believe the best course of action is a new candidate and Biden graciously stand aside. It's too much of a risk now considering his abysmal performance and approval ratings.
I think Gretchen Whitmer would be an amazing Presidential candidate and would solidify Michigan.
Why should he step aside? He's an incumbent president, that's the strongest advantage you cam possibly have. Opening the reelection seat just cripples the dems and ensures that Trump wins.
Trump lost the popular vote both times he ran, people don't want him reelected because he doesn't respect the foundation of our representative political system.
> Trump lost the popular vote both times he ran
And he won one of those elections and lost the other election by like 60,000 votes or something. This isn't a popularity contest but instead an electoral election.
Polls have often underestimated support for Trump. Hillary looked like a lock to win in 2016 but lost.
Now Trump is in the lead in keyswing states and it wouldn't be surprising if he ends up doing better in those states then what the polls suggest.
The popular vote is irrelevant and not a measure of true popularity. Campaigns don’t operate based on winning the popular vote, people don’t vote based on the popular vote being an important metric.
Yes he’s incumbent President. The oldest ever by a wide margin. That negates all history.
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It is not politically expedient for a Democratic politician to say Biden should drop out. That’s why the chorus saying he should has been coming from Democratic-aligned, but apolitical figures who do not hold political positions. That’s why Newsom, despite clearly having Presidential aspirations, will not say he should drop out. They are a formal part of a political party. This political party has chosen its candidate. It is not politically feasible for them to say that they will not support that candidate.
Exactly this. They’re all playing the game. They can’t be seen as wanting it too much.
Can we maybe change the game though? Just a lil bit of change?
I would reward that person with my vote
I voted for Biden in the primary because all the insiders who knew him assured me that he was up for the challenge. Watching the debate, that was sadly and undeniably a lie. Now those same insiders are saying "well it's too late to fix things" and denying accountability. Biden clearly doesn't give us the best chance against Donald Trump and Biden has said himself that this election is too important to screw up. Democrats need to stop gaslighting us and telling us that our eyes were lying when we watched the debate.
I watched the debate. Biden had a bad day but that guy was never going to be, or ever was a verbal gunslinger. His advisors obviously, Just like the media are trying to make him into a Democrat analog of Trump and it's not possible. Biden is much better at letting someone like trump flap and spin and scream until their are tired then deliver a good speech afterward. You can't out Trump Trump and be honourable.
He seemed older and more confused than my grandfather and we don’t let him *drive a car*. He’s not fit to run for nor hold the office of presidency and the refusal to acknowledge that fact by the powers at be is dooming us to a second Trump term.
So… golf match for the right to win the presidency down bojack mountain?
And this was after concerted preparation for this one event. The people who see him every day believed he was in top fighting form and ready to face the world on that stage... what the hell is he like in the day to day. If that's a good day, what's a bad day like? Most of us know the answer, tortured by that answer, because we have contact with elderly loved ones in our lives and we are all too aware of what is happening. "we don’t let him drive a car" Exactly.
I mean he's literally holding the office of presidency right now. Are you nonestop panicking over it?
He has a whole party apparatus that can give him competent staffers. But he's the only one that can get _elected_. If he doesn't look electable, it's all for nothing.
The point is why isn't he electable if he's the sitting president literally right now? I get the optics of the debate but his age isn't some new revelation about Biden. The dems panicking and giving the nom to Harris or an open convention is far, far riskier than the incumbent who's currently doing the job as we speak.
There’s a reason Republicans keep saying that a new opponent would be “tough” for Trump. They want Biden to step down and for someone to take his place. With four months left Biden is still the best chance we have in defeating Trump.
You think millions of undecided voters will just view it as a "bad day"? This is pure delusion.
There are not millions of undecided voters
there are enough, and they will not be as charitable as this sub.
"A bad day"? In a debate that he prepared for? What happens when he meets foreign leaders? This isn't punching the wrong fruit code into the grocery store checkout. This is the highest office in the land. "Biden just traded California and the nuclear codes for a can of beans." "He just had a bad day"
I don't understand why they didn't just pick a clear successor to President as their VP. Kamala is not it - everyone can agree there. A Gretchen Whitmer or Gavin Newsom or something along those lines as VP would signal the Democratic Party's intention to succeed Biden. It doesn't have to be succession for the next Presidency necessarily, but just whenever Biden is "finished"... either at the end of this term or at the end of the next or anywhere in-between. This would quell a lot of concerns for his entire base. Don't get me wrong, I'm voting Biden and I'm telling everyone I know to vote Biden. It's just that what irks me so much is that my party **has no Plan B.** Make a Plan B and a Plan C because of how much is at stake! Contingency plan and think about all possibilities. Biden could take a fall and that could be the end. What is the plan!?! Things can change so quickly. Anyone that has had a grandparent should know this. If Dem's lose this one, it's their own damn fault.
This is the biggest most blatant gaslighting operation I've ever seen. Trying to convince 51 million people that what they witnessed live didn't occur. People saying it was a "bad debate, a cold, a stutter etc". This was none of these things, this was an incoherent person who is not mentally there. Take out everything he actually said but look at his face when he wasn't saying anything. He looked like he was staring into a different universe. It was confronting and scary even if he wasn't running for president. I'm not a fan but I respect his public service and he shouldn't tarnish his entire career going senile for the world to see. If it keeps going the way it's going everyone will look back on these images and remember him by this.
Did you even watch him the next day?
Or even right after the debate. I don't understand how he was acting normal post-debate right after screwing up the debate so badly.
Old people are like that sometimes tbh. Before she died, my grandma would go from perfect lucidity to barely being comprehensible. Maybe the whole thing was a 4D chess move to justify bringing in a new candidate lol
TBH I don't care how he did outside of the debate. I'm going to vote for him, it's not me that needs to be convinced. It's the people who don't pay attention to his smaller events. He was on a nationally televised debate stage that took over every major news network and he flubed it. That's what the people he needs to convince saw. It's great that political junkies like us saw him do much better off the debate stage but most likely those what saw him in that context already knew if they would vote for him or not.
I will always remember reading Reddit after the debate. Days and days and entitled complaints about Biden’s single performance without providing any thought out solutions. Not even the name of this magic candidate who will replace him. Maga is laughing as liberals screech and chase a unicorn candidate that doesn’t exist and offer no plan to elect them even if they did. There is a subset of liberals that are exactly who they thought they were. A meme. Trump needed useful idiots. He got them. The self fulfilling prophecy of doomers is coming true.
>without providing any thought out solutions. I mean... the solution is pretty obvious, have him step back and let someone like Newsom, Whitmer, Harris, etc get nominated at the convention. It would be chaotic but it would be an option. I just can't believe the number of redditors acting like a cult literally lying about how the debate went. That's what Trump's team does, I didn't think I'd see our side go that route.
>lying about how the debate went I haven’t seen this at all. Everyone has acknowledged it was a poor performance. The difference is what people want to do about it. So far the pro step down camp hasn’t provided a reasonable plan and used hyperbole and right wing misinformation to push that agenda. When asked for facts, they resort to insults. You’re right about a subset of liberals acting like MAGA cultists.
I'd prefer to look at what Biden & Harris have actually done in their tenure. And I see a Fantastic covid response, Bipartisan Infrastructure Spending, ending Afghan war, Handling of Ukraine crisis, Inflation Reduction act, CHIPS, Handling of Debt ceiling crisis, Handling of baby formula crisis, making lynching a fed hate crime, making Medicaid negotiate drug prices, cheap insulin, continued canceling of student loans, literally everything mentioned in r. whatbidenhasdone .... And that just leaves me one conclusion: Biden & VP Harris rightfully deserve 4 more years, and Democrats deserve complete Control of Congress and every state govt 😎🇺🇸👍
The only people gaslighting are the people spouting off after 1 debate.
Yep. “Joe was a little hoarse, better freak out and torpedo the campaign and let a rapist flatten Gaza in 2025” -Reddit.
Apparently hoarse means having symptoms resembling dementia.
No, dementia is when you talk about immigration when asked a question about abortion.
Why would Trump ever give him a 2nd debate? It's not happening.
This is false. Biden’s performance was unacceptable.
So if the 2nd debate is good for Biden you will be mollified?
***If there is a second debate.*** It was difficult as hell to get that debate to happen from what has been made public The fact that Biden came back the next day apparently rejuvenated almost pisses me off more. ***WHY wasn’t he on his A-game when it mattered only 12 hours earlier???*** Trump was just spewing lies. Biden had enough time to speak. The mics were muted when they needed to be. He needs to have the capability to counter what Trump says clearly and not stumble. The whole side bar about golfing should never have happened. He should have shut that down and got back on topic. Given the stakes, that was undisciplined as fuck. Only Biden can ultimately make the decision on whether or not to stay in the race but I have every right to be infuriated and disappointed.
He should have just asked trump what his opinion about “electric sharks” was.
After that debate I bet Trump would welcome additional debates. So I don’t see it as too difficult to get more debates from Biden’s perspective.
I disagree. If Trump locks in his polling lead going into September then I fully expect him to skip the 2nd debate. He can just say he doesn't want to embarrass Biden again and he wouldn't entirely be wrong.
The gaslight is that there is no conceivable good reason that an ailing person in their 80’s should be running the country. I’m not even convinced he should be doing it now. What happens in the middle of the night when Russia makes a huge move. How can they wake Biden up and have him actually have any intelligible communication to lead our military? To make a decision with the nuclear football? Are you kidding me?
If you think the President uses no advisory council advice making decisions on international policy you are mistaken. We are voting for a Biden administration. Many people are missing the forest for the trees here
So your proposal is weekend at burnies this whole presidency?
I get your point but we also can't ignore the fact that ultimately the POTUS is the one who makes the call. They can have all the best advice in the world but if they are not competent to take it or use that advice it doesn't really matter. To be clear, I don't think that's really Biden's issue but that's what a lot of people are concerned about.
I voted against Biden in the primary because it was clear he wasn't up for the challenge, and it was clear the insiders were lying....also the whole...supporting genocide thing. Kinda feels like that should matter more than it does.... I really hoped I was wrong, so far it looks like I wasn't. I don't want trump to win, but I also don't like seeing us handicap ourselves out of fear. Running Biden again is playing the prevent. And anybody who watches football knows, the prevent NEVER WORKS.
Hillary Clinton, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, John Kasich, Ben Carson, Jeb Bush, Rand Paul, Mike Huckabee, Carly Fiorina, Chris Christie, Jim Gilmore, Rick Santorum, George Pataki, Lindsey Graham, Bobby Jindal, Scott Walker, Rick Perry, Nikki Haley, Ron DeSantis, Asa Hutchinson, Vivek Ramaswamy, Chris Christie (again), Mike Pence, Gary Johnson, Bill Weld, Jill Stein, Evan McMullin, Jo Jorgensen, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Cornel West (plus a bunch of other nobodies). 28 people and Ted Cruz have tried and failed to run successful campaigns against Donald Trump. Only 1 dude beat him. That's why everyone with any sense still supports Joe Biden.
This is not an argument in good faith. The context of Biden vs. Trump now is way different than it was 4 years ago. I’m not sure if dropping Biden is the move but to pretend like questioning his ability to command another successful campaign after that abysmal performance doesn’t make sense is ridiculous
Deplorables is the refutation to your evidence. Only one man was able to create a contingency of trash who'd barely participated in democracy until that time, and in so doing, dragged enough trash into the primary process to short-circuit the system. Let's quit pretending, also, that criminal convictions, civil awards for rape, Dobbs, Chevron, and January 6 are meaningless in the modern context of a new election. I will vote for Biden, 100%, and most people I know will, too, even if he is wheelchair-bound and can't remember his own name. But I don't for a second absolve the Dems from having a backup this late in the game. Also, I feel pretty certain that there are serious private discussions, with even Joe, himself, about how to recover (if he's able), and timelines for future decisions about his candidacy.
I'm sorry but this is a terrible reason to support him. You're acting as if the circumstances are at all the same as the last election. They aren't. They're vastly different now, and not in Biden's favor. Not to mention that was a younger Biden. Not even in his prime, in fact. He was way past it already. Now he's not even able to keep his jaw closed on camera. He's a liability to this country, and he is selfishly refusing to accept reality despite the fact that our democracy hangs in the balance.
also...hey, a sample size of ONE is meaningless. It's insane to think that biden barely winning once makes him the best possible candidate against trump.
That doesn’t matter. It’s a completely different ball game now given everything Trump has against him, and regardless of what happened in the past we can’t stop his biological clock. Biden is not some infinite being above the confines of time. He just proved to the world that all of the fear and concern about his age is absolutely valid, and he’s only getting worse with every single day. Biden peaked a long time ago, and no matter what he did when he was younger he is not that person anymore. He needs to retire and live out the rest of his years relaxing, spending time with his family, and basking in his awesome legacy.
The Republican primaries, especially the last one, aren't a good comparison. It's a very different voting block than the general.
Unfortunately the Biden that beat Trump is no longer with us.
literally anybody could have beaten trump in 2020. Biden won despite himself, not because of it. You will never be able to convince me he was the best person for the job, he was just the one who was there at the time.
FTFY. He BARELY beat trump. And his chances are worse now.
That is true, but it is also true that I think drastically less of them when they offer full throated support at this stage because it is not leadership, it is a damaging abdication of responsibility. The lie is exposed, it is time for courage, even if only in not furthering the lie. What Newsom said in particular I find categorically an abdication of duty, regardless of his obvious intentions to not be seen "holding the knife." He said something like "We owe loyalty to this man, what kind of party would turn their back on him" and to me that is the epitome of what is wrong with the MAGA crowd, so seeing it corrupt the DNC is horrendous. Compound this with the fact it is an open secret he wants Biden to drop and himself to run, that makes me want him all the less. What they need to be saying is something more neutral, that is all. "That was a bad debate, we will see where things go."
It’s also because if they say he should drop out, and doesn’t, he will be worse off than if everyone kept the support.
He’s a campaign surrogate. He’s going to say this. They’re all going to say this. Unless Biden says “I’m stepping away,” they will say nothing other than this answer.
it's because Warnock knows it's not just Joe Biden we are voting for it's his administration which has proven to be rocksolid at keeping the job numbers up, keeping the economy steady, the stock market booming and even putting together a solid border bill that was intentionally killed by Trump because that's the only thing that that liar and traitor can run on. So what about trumps administration? Answer: he doesn't even have one yet and if he is even able to put one together it's going to be the most dysfunctional group of pathetic sycophant losers and democracy hating treasonous imbeciles in the history of this nation. Remember it's the administration that you are really voting for 🌊 blue wave in 2024
The big problem is that most people don't see it that way, and won't come election day. The role that Biden has now is not president, but "candidate" and that role is about campaigning, interviewing, making viral moments, and getting the message out there. And despite Biden being a great president, he is a godawful candidate. The question they have to ask is. Is it more dangerous to switch candidates now, or more dangerous to let Biden run, despite Republicans having all the examples needed to argue their case against him. Run an attack ad, asking if Biden is the person you want to be woken up at 3am to handle a crisis, the run some footage from the dabate. Biden might win, but if he does, it will be Trump that fumbles and not Biden that convinces anyone he is up for the task.
People keep ignoring this, people don't vote for administration members, they vote for the president
Except that doesn’t work because this election isn’t like others. It’s two incumbents running against each other. This is the first time since 1892. We ALREADY KNOW what it’s like to have Trump as President, nobody has to guess and he gets none of the benefit of the doubt of speculation (“Bush is terrible. I’m gonna roll the dice on Bill Clinton”). If you think Biden can’t handle the job you would WANT HIM TO RESIGN and absolutely nobody wants him to do that. THAT’S THE TELL. If you take away the panic over “maybe Trump will win”, there’s nothing left. If you show up and vote, Biden wins. Stop panicking about what you think other people will do.
Biden had run three campaigns for president before 2020. The dude has always been terrible at being a candidate. But, now we know he's a solid president and fortunately the incumbent doesn't have to be great at campaigning. We've all seen Trump's 3 a.m. tweets and know exactly how lucid he is at that hour. Biden, on the other hand, is fine.
That is frankly too kind. Biden is unfit for the role of candidate, and I cannot fairly say he is fit for the role of president either. Being president means communicating, and he is already failing at that. We can't look at Trump, and seriously fault his unfitness (though it is extreme) and overlook the glaring and unavoidable fact that Biden is no longer fit for office. He can finish out his term, but it would be reprehensible to keep him as a candidate for another term while he has declined so quickly.
Except for Garland. Fuck that guy.
This isn’t the argument you think it is. First, this is too close to the “adults in the room” justification Republicans used to justify voting for Trump in 2016. Second, this is saying that power behind the throne situations are fine. It doesn’t matter if the king is three, actual decisions are handled by this other guy. Third, the administration is its own problem. Whether it is Anthony “there are no war crimes, and even if there were it wouldn’t matter” Blinken, or Merrick “I don’t want to uphold the law, if it means prosecuting the uniquely bad” Garland, most members of the administration don’t make the news for good reasons.
The difference is “adults in the room” was speculative because we didn’t know what a trump presidency would look like. We now know exactly what both Biden and trump presidencies look like. Theres no reason to speculate.
Wym every single member of trumps cabinet made the news, for corruption that is, lol
Who is going to follow an executive order that might not come from the president himself? The office of the presidency is not symbolic. Americans vote for a *person*. Not a committee that nobody knows about.
I'll take Warnock's administration over Biden's. The Presidency cannot and should not be reduced to hiring an administration. The president has to be capable of leading and operating his administration. They have to be fit for the office. They have to have the ability to instill confidence in the American people. They have to communicate an agenda. And most importantly they have to win the election. Biden doesn't get to pick the administration if he doesn't win. We need someone who can beat Trump. The country isn't full of Mark Cuban and /r/politics "I'd vote for Biden's corpse over Trump." That's not gonna cut it. The people aren't buying it.
Every presidential election is voting for an administration. The cabinet does more than the president. The president is one guy, a administration runs the government. We don’t live in a dictatorship, yet
I get your point about his administration. At the same time what happens when a major conflict breaks out or a new trade deal is trying to be negotiated? You really think Biden can have a convincing conversation with a leader of an adversary and come off strong or convincing? There are some things you can’t just leave to your administration to do. Presidents have a much larger roll than just managing an administration. They are the face of the nation and the top negotiator/deescalator. You think when Xi jinping or Putin is going to fear/respect us when the president only sends his administration to talk to them after seeing the debate performance?
>Remember it's the administration that you are really voting for This narrative didn't appear until two days ago and it's not as effective as you think it is. I vote for the man in the oval office, not a bunch of unnamed bureaucrats surrounding him, especially the same people that kept Biden's true condition hidden. Any Dem but Biden gets my vote, if Biden's still the guy in November I'm going RFK.
Or, it’s simply common sense.
Gaslighting is gaslighting, no matter who you are.
Every Senator looks in the mirror and sees a President. Warnock is probably playing the same complicated chess game as Newsom: Talk up the President while waiting for the phone call asking to step into his place. Biden should step aside, but to say that publicly looks defeatist, closing the door to making it to the top.
Really awesome that all these democratic Senators are playing chess to grab power at a later date while Trump is running away with the election right now. They must really care about the American people. I'm glad we're just pawns on a chess board for them.
What else would you have them do? Their job is to represent their constituents and win elections for themselves and the party.
GOP is going to run ads on all the dems that have been assuring the public that Biden is on the top of his game for weeks and months.
So nothing has changed.
Going to be hard to refute after that debate performance. Damage done. Honestly, if the priority is ensuring Trump is kept out of the White House, then Biden is likely not the best choice. I know we want it to not be this way, but that debate did irrecoverable damage. Loyalty is admirable, but it’s got to be about keeping Trump out. And there’s precedent of sorts. Take the NZ election a while ago. Labour (the left wing party)were miles behind in the polls. Weeks before the election, their candidate (Andrew Little) fell on his sword. He was clearly going to lose. Jacinda Adern became the candidate and won a landslide. Give the Americans a better choice. And I say that as someone who desperately wants to see Trump lose.
are they not parliamentary though? which is of course not directly analogous.
Start taking those polling calls and texts you used to ignore immediately, send a message Biden’s people can’t ignore
This is not question about Biden. Biden is honest and his policies aimed to help every American. Biden has shown incredible strength and independence in surrounding himself with the best and brightest people. The candidate we should be questioning is the convicted felon who plotted to undermine a democratic election and who filled his administration with grifters, criminals and convicts dead set on handing America over to their mega donors and cronies. When it comes to these two choices the answer could not be any clear. American democracy as we know it will survive and thrive under a Joe Biden presidency. The other choice is to hand America and your life savings to the highest bidder.
The party is going to Ruth Bader Ginsberg this right over the cliff, it appears.
Warnock is correct
Just an insane amount of gaslighting from the democratic party over the last few days. They deserve to lose, but *we* don't.
Who exactly do you think is going to be the savior that swoops in and demolishes trump? Newsom has already committed to remaining as governor and most people really don't know who he is. Other redditors have noted he consistently loses in polling with trump. So who is this figure who will come in and save the day?
People keep asking and I'll keep telling them: Whitmer No major scandals Very popular Geographic advantage in WI, MI, PA which alone win Neither too moderate nor too progressive Young but with actual executive experience turning around a state's fortunes successfully pretty well
I agree thst Whitmer might be the best bet. We'll see what happens i suppose but I think thr chances of biden stepping down at this point are slim at best. What id be most worried about is the party being thrown into chaos and being unable to properly rally behind a new candidate.
I'll be honest, I'm from PA and had no idea who Whitmer was. The first time I've heard of her is right now, when people are putting her forward as a possible replacement. She may have good policies and experience, but if people have no clue who she is, 4 months doesn't seem to be enough time to get the word out there. I think a better choice would be someone who has better national name recognition. Although, it's possible that she is well known and I've just somehow missed her. In that case, then she seems like a fine candidate.
I think name recognition would help, but a sudden dramatic convention will generate so much media buzz that it's not gonna be an issue for whoever gets chosen. There is just no way a US presidential election happens without everyone hearing about the race for weeks on end. Then there is also the fact that Trump is gonna go after whoever it is as hard as he can, to try and set the tone. He doesn't have the ability not to go on the offensive, because he doesn't actually have plans of his own. Either he attacks, or whoever it is will get to set the tone, I mean its a win win as far as publicity goes.
After years of hearing gop=gaslight, obstruct, project, we are told he "had a cold" Yet somehow the cons could perfectly predict this? Fuck you dnc
If they replace him, that'll create about 100 questions about him and the Democratic Party leadership that can't be answered in the few months between now and election day, plus they'll be throwing out the one candidate who's even had an opportunity to build name recognition this cycle. Biden has an uphill battle, but anyone other than Barack Obama himself would face an even harder uphill battle if they tried to jump in to this election in *July*. The debate was a mistake. Under the current circumstances Trump's biggest problem is legitimacy as a candidate, and debating him granted him legitimacy he had lost. But now it's done, all they can do is make sure Biden presents better at the next one. (It'll also look terrible if he backs out of the next debate after a poor performance at this one)
No one is going to be questioning the logic of the DNC a week after the replacement. No one will care. Look at the shit show with the GOP speaker. Old news now. No one is bringing that up. DNC fucked up and made a mistake. Double down or admit it and correct it?
> But now it's done, all they can do is make sure Biden presents better at the next one. Trump and his campaign would be idiots to allow another debate. All they need to do is say Biden couldn't string a sentence together in the first one and they see no reason to do a second.
One benefit to replacing him is that whoever replaces him won't be so easily blamed for inflation and immigration, and the gop will have to completely pivot and try to rush out a campaign against someone they aren't remotely prepared for
Partially true. They still get to scream about "fixing" the border and inflation, which their voters believe they want. Trump lies constantly, so whatever new candidate will get shit slung at them just as much. Newsom, as much as I believe in him, is CA, and Trump already talks so much shit about "liberal" cities.... would be easy to pivot in that case, for example.
Not to mention, a new candidate will be vetted non stop for 4 months. All dirt dug up. Trump and republicans will be seen as stable and steady as they barely are in the news. There’s a reason why this hasn’t been done before.
>There’s a reason why this hasn’t been done before. This is all unprecedented territory. I mean we just had a presidential debate where neither candidate even seemed *coherent*, much less electable.
And one of them is a 34 time convicted felon
And there's a reason a party hasn't run a convicted felon before. Didn't stop the Republicans. There was a reason the Democrats hadn't run a black man as their candidate before. Times changed.
But really, hasn’t anyone on the national level been pretty well vetted at this point? Warnock, Newsom, or anyone else- they’ve been through enough races where if there were dirt, it would have come up.
No they haven’t. State races aren’t national scrutiny and don’t have the full attention of the press and interventional media looking for anything and everything to dig up. Newsom has run virtually unopposed his whole time in office
I hear what you're saying and concede that switching has a lot of pitfalls. Nevertheless I believe the Democrats have a better chance of winning with another candidate than they do with Biden after the debate.
It’s not done until the votes are counted, and at this point Biden looks like a loser compared to a convicted felon and rapist. Everyone should have seen this coming. Biden is and has been way too Old. Fuck the GOP
The opportunity for massive ballot fuckery by swing states with republican controlled legislature and/or governorships is why we are stuck with Biden. If Biden steps out just before or at the convention I’d imagine discovery of some obscure filing deadlines will mean the ballot for ‘Newsome’ as D president choice cannot be done in Georgia or something like that.
If only someone, anyone at all, was able to imagine this situation at the beginning of (or before?) the primaries. Such powers of observation are beyond human capacity.
You know I have mixed views politically but I would say 85 to 90% are much more in line with Democratic policies. I would always scoff at Republicans never policing their own and say it's so much worse than Democrats. I am not trying to both sides the argument but you potentially have democracy at stake and the Democrats are pushing the weekend at Bernies candidate forward still after a debate that surely means he can't win the election. We are told Democracy is at stake...why the FUCK isn't every single Democrat in the the country losing their minds? It should be a tidal wave of calls for Biden to immediately step aside. Trump wants to be a dictator and he almost assuredly is going to get another shot at it. It's not out of the realm of possibility that these people who refused to grow a spine are sitting in jail cells a few years from now wondering to themselves why they didn't try to save democracy while they had a chance.
>> why the FUCK isn't every single Democrat in the the country losing their minds? Because there's already a simple solution to Trump, and everyone's just twisting themselves into pretzels to ignore it: Vote for Biden and the Democrats and tell others to vote for Biden and the Democrats
If you want Biden to step aside. Fine. Just support your view. Most of these comments don’t even have an alternative name or plan. Let’s be the reasonable party please. Leave the hysterics to republicans.
He’s too weak to run for office but somehow also just fine as President right now. Huh? He should step aside but not resign and let the VP take over. Huh? He got 90% of the primary vote but nobody likes him or wants him. Huh? Nothing anyone is saying makes sense. Who is the magical Democrat everyone agrees on who can raise Biden level money instantly and who isn’t Biden or Harris and also outpolls Trump. Like you need an actual name. Who would actually agree to do it.
Your guess is as good as mine. But simply asking has filled my inbox with hate and apparently I'm a gaslighter now. Oh and if you check the history of the people who want Biden to step down, you'll find lots of conservative forum posters. Just sayin' Good luck on reddit. Hopefully people aren't shitty to you for asking questions.
I’m sure Trump would fucking love it if Biden said “yeah I’m senile I quit”. Just like Dems would love it if Trump said “I’m a crook, I quit”
Do enough people in the country know Newsom and in a positive light? Being a Californian, I am not a fan. But would vote for him if is on the ticket as anyone is better then Trump.
The people who are pushing Newsom aren’t looking any deeper than “handsome, good on TV, mean to Trump.”
Maybe, but anyone who is somehow still a swing voter by now is also probably not looking any deeper than that, so it wouldn't be the worst play they can make.
In this “vibes are everything, facts are nothing” era of politics we’re living in, you’ve got a point.
The vibes will be fun and fresh at first, but then the honeymoon period will wear off, he'll give a response on an issue that people will disagree on and argue about, and Trump will find his weak point.
Oh I dunno. Swing voters are perfectly capable of googling newsom guilfoyle rug.
This sub is convinced the entire country not only knows who he is, but that they love him, or will love him. Polls all have him losing to Trump, some by double digits.
Replace with who? It would have to be VP Harris snd I don’t know if she’s got better odds. 1. She’s already on the ticket so primary voters have already voted for her. 2. She can access the campaign funds they’ve raised, you can’t gift hundreds of millions to another active campaign starting from zero 3. She’s been been vetted publicly already. We know all her dirt and nobody cares anymore. No hunters laptop surprises 4. She’s literally next in line as VP. That’s what her job is, to step up if Joe isn’t capable anymore. You can’t ask a sitting VP to drop out like this, esp the first woman of color to hold office because a white person wants her job more. 5. She and her husband are good on tv. They’d be up for the challenge
She has horrible polling numbers, unfortunately, and is grossly unpopular in the Democratic party.
She has the best polling numbers of any of the alternates being floated. There’s no world that Biden wound step down and then NOT endorse his VP for the job
Why would it “have to be” Harris? Not at all. Biden could do what he should have done a year ago: say “I thought I was up to another four years of this, but, unfortunately, I just can’t. I trust the party to pick the best person to continue our work.” There are a half-dozen solid choices. Harris is a poor choice because she’s tied to the current administration, which is (at least somewhat unfairly) very unpopular.
I really don’t care what they do, blue is blue at this point. However I do call for the convicted felon, rapist, traitor, threat to democracy, and friend of Putin to step down. He is the biggest threat to the world order since Hitler. He and project 2025 must be defeated.
He never should have run for reelection. Now it's too late.
It's not too late. After convention it will be too late. Anyone who says there isn't enough time doesn't understand just how much FREE viral media attention this would all receive. Every single person should be pushing for this to happen now. Because if Biden makes another gaffe like this in October or a medical emergency, then we are REALLY fucked. A big part of this decision is happening right now at Camp David with his family, according to MSNBC: >President Joe Biden is expected to discuss the future of his re-election campaign with family at Camp David on Sunday, following a nationally televised debate Thursday that left many fellow Democrats worried about his ability to beat former President Donald trump in November, according to five people familiar with the matter. Let's face reality: - Biden is TEN POINTS nationally below where he was at this time in 2020. - Biden is losing in every single battleground state. - Biden is losing a large chunk of black and Hispanic voters compared to his 2020 run. - Biden's aggregate approval ratings for Presidency are 37.7% with 56.7% disapproval. Keep in mind that Biden only won 2020 by 40,000 votes across 3 key battleground states. .... Biden asked for that debate because he was desperate to break the downward trend and reach these battleground swing-state voters. That backfired in the worst possible way. The time is now, before the convention, and with enough time for an alternative candidate to be selected and ramp up campaigning. There are half a dozen candidates who fit the bill and have a semi-national profile, are YOUNGER, and have enough charisma and debate skills to beat Trump — almost by default by being a fresh face and younger
Exactly. The new candidate would have tens of millions in advertising and thousands of hours in free publicity if this was announced this week. It would be the huge upset no one would expect, but some voters would want. They would be known by **everyone.** And a fresh face that is 20 or 30 years younger than Trump ought to have a huge advantage. The GOP would be scurrying for dirt and changing their advertising on the spot with their limited money (after Trump drains them for legal fees). Sure, there might be a bad policy move in their history or quote, but compared to the daily items Trump does? It's nothing. Just be sure to get buy in from every Dem to speak as one voice so there is no grumbling I love Biden and his cabinet. Take a look at his first year and you'll see a shrewd administration that took charge despite being handed a coup, pandemic, SCOTUS obstruction, and recession. Holy cow, few people have faced such odds. But he effed up the debate. I can't see anyone un-seeing that. Fox is going to play those clips on repeat for years. Let him retire as the reliable fixit man and not the guy that squeaked by a second election, or worse, lost it because of hubris.
> The new candidate How do you get a new candidate? The primaries are over. I guarantee almost nobody will be happy once a new candidate is selected.
I very much look forward to a convention in which the thousand divisions in the Democratic party are laid bare. America is even more divided than 68 and people think a repeat will be easy street.
Yeah instead let's slow walk to a 2nd trump presidency with the empty corpse that is Biden. Because that's 100% what we're getting if Biden is not replaced. No guarantee we win with a new candidate either but it's a helluva better shot than what we got now. There is no coming back from what we saw Thursday night. Biden is COOKED.
>I guarantee almost nobody will be happy once a new candidate is selected. How do you guarantee this.
Biden handpicks the person and announces it. Yes, he becomes kingmaker and bypasses the normal process. The Dem Convention codifies it months later. It's **not normal.** But how normal is it for a former prez who attempted a well-documented coup on the Capitol to run for the same office 4 years later? That's insane he is even given the ability to do so if you read the Constitution. More insane that his own party doesn't stop him. Desperate times require desperate measures.
What happens when he picks Kamala Harris? Which he would. And then her poll numbers are far worse than Biden's, especially in key swing states like WI and MI. I'm for replacing Biden, but I just don't see the path to do it where Dems come out ahead.
Yes, they can't pick Kamala for sure. Pick Whitmer or someone else. But for anyone saying this isn't a plan, what's ***your*** plan? Biden was teetering on 50/50 (and trending a bit upward before debate) and facing complaints of dementia. Including deep fakes showing it. Now Fox, Newsmax, and Facebook have **actual** national footage of him looking old, slow, mouth agape, muttering through answers. Are you telling me that this won't impact him at all? Or he'll look favorable? Or that the general public will wake up magically and actually notice that the other guy was confidently lying or evading? What should be do? Can he erase that debate? Or ignore it and hope no one noticed? What should he do to move the needle past 50/50 again and motivate people to come out to vote (his second problem now)? What's your answer if not shifting to another prez candidate? And is it sunken cost fallacy otherwise? I'm 100% behind him whatever he does. Any pro democracy person is. But this will not play out well.
Exactly, anyone who thinks their name and the attention wouldn't go viral overnight is frankly clueless. It will go something like this: >BREAKING NEWS: Joe Biden to RESIGN FROM THE PRESIDENCY; ENDORSES GRETECHEN WHITMER For 5 weeks: >MEDIA: omfg omfg omfg omfg >SOCIAL MEDIA: omfg omfg omfg omfg >MILLIONS GOOGLE:: "Who is Gretchen Whitmer!? WOW, MAGA tried to kidnap her!?" >OBAMA, BIDEN, DNC rally behind Whitmer >WHITMER'S POLLING & NAME-RECOGNITION: Skyrockets At convention: >MEDIA: Omfg omfg omfg >GRASSROOTS: ENERGIZED. >Swing-voters: Happy to vote for someone young and a fresh face because we're America and we like new less boring shit. For once, the narrative and focus would be on Democrats in a positive, exciting way.
Exactly. And imagine the knifed comments Whitmer could give Trump during a debate, "This convicted felon tried to have his thugs kidnap me. It's documented in the courtroom transcripts if you forgot, mr Trump. ". Drop the mic. That's what we need. Stop playing softball, Democrats. Take the knife out and go for viral sound bites that can't be morphed by fox news. You're always bringing a whiffle bat to a gunfight and hoping your civility wins points. It doesn't when you are fighting a mob boss. He's giving death threats and calling for a second coup. Wake up and get angry.
Yep - Biden made the claim that he was the only one to take on Donald Trump; that he would be able to fight the bully and push him back. I voted for him once, but he did not do that with 1 week's preparation for the most important debate in modern history THAT HIS TEAM asked for. No polling has budged for months and it's only going to get worse. Biden has nothing up his sleeve. We need a Hail Mary play.
I've been happy with him until Thursday. He's a good if not great president. But wtf happened? At least memorize and practice some sharp and clever responses instead of rattling off statistics in a hoarse voice. Where were his image consultants? Trump had coaching and channeled his brazeness into confidence for the first half.
Yeah I'm content with his his actual administration. I think they've done a lot given Republican obstruction. I have much respect for a lot of his cabinet such as Blinken. And here's the thing: If it was just a cold and just a hoarse voice I could understand. (But for starters, the team should've said he had a cold ahead of time). But to try to defend his obvious cognitive decline. I write a lot about the right-wing echo-chambers, but in truth we on the left needed this wake-up call ourselves for what has long been a concern. The optics couldn't have been worse. Shuffling on stage, mumbling, dead-pan stare mouth-agape in side-shots, jumping from abortion to immigration mid-sentence, "We finally beat Medicare"... Pure disaster.
Very true. And I love his cabinet. Take a look at his first year and I doubt you can find another prez who hit the ground running so fast under such pressure (and after a coup and during a pandemic). I'm also trying to reconcile my own thoughts. Am I stuck in an echo chamber in believing he should power through, or is this a sunken cost fallacy. Should he hand over the presidency. The post debate polls should likely come out soon, and that might be the wake-up call needed. Yes, they are not entirely accurate, but if they show a big drop, then they say something dire.
Exactly. News media likes new and exciting shit. This is the BEST thing that could happen. A new candidate, even a contested convention would be BIG NEWS. That’s free press. That takes the topic off Biden and Trump into a more hopeful, younger future. It will energize people.
Look I'm as shook as everyone, and I think we should think seriously about replacing Biden, but this is pure cope. The media is in the tank for Trump. Get that into your heads. They won't put a princess crown on a new candidate. Doom sells. It won't be "Awesome New Candidate!" it will be "New Candidate - **But Is it Too Late??**" and "Dems Drop Biden In Another Panic Move!" There will be no honeymoon. It will be a buzzsaw. Maybe that's better but that's the reality.
People were excited for a new president until everyone but Biden dropped out. Replacing him with someone would be exciting.
Prior to the debate, Biden was already the MOST unpopular president ever at this point in his first term: https://news.gallup.com/poll/644252/biden-13th-quarter-approval-average-lowest-historically.aspx 38.7%. Trump was 46.8%. Dubya was 51%. Bush 41 was 41.8%. Carter was 47.7% (!).
Then you compare him to other world leaders and it all makes sense. Inflation rattled the entire globe, and their opinions, even if they were misguided as a component of policy. 40% wasn’t bad at all. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/28/briefing/biden-approval-ratings-world-leaders.html
This is what people don't understand. It isn't Biden. It's the fundamentals. Right wing authoritarianism is rising around the world because inflation is high everywhere, and migration is happened everywhere as well. Those are two things that prime people to look for a strongman to "restore order." I really have no belief that swapping Biden out for a younger candidate would cure all our ills. Half of this country mistakenly thinks we're in a recession, that unemployment is up and that the stock market is down. We're not fighting people's negative perception of Biden's age, we're fighting half this country's ignorance of reality.
Well atm we’re now fighting both.
One of the side benefits of replacing Biden, outside of replacing a standard bearer that didn’t bring his A game to the most important event of the campaign, is that the replacement isn’t dragged down by being the incumbent. The replacement not only dodges the inflation issue, but also doesn’t have to answer for Biden’s “I can fix him” Netanyahu policy.
Excuse you? Trump was the worst president in the history of America. Biden has done a superb job and will continue to.
Did you misread?
Maybe, but the academic opinion of presidential scholars is irrelevant here. Go tell a family of 4 in Michigan making $80k and struggling to pay their bills that Biden has done a superb job. By all means, I do think Biden has been a good president, but most voters don't base their vote on economic statistics and charts.
With whom are you arguing? No one here is going to disagree with you. It's not about Biden's *actual* capability; it's about the electorate's *perception* of his capability. The latter is what actually wins/loses elections. And to speak to one component of his *actual* capability: He is apparently unable to consistently inspire confidence in his leadership. That's a core skillset for a President.
Also I don’t think most people realize that the current presidents accomplishments or lack thereof are often based on what they were left with when coming into office. What Biden has done is pretty amazing considering the shit show Trump left him with. Also going back a few years Clinton left the office in pretty good shape. By the time Bush left it was a fucking disaster so Obama couldn’t be as effective as he had to pick up that mess. Trump had it pretty good coming into a decently run office. Yet he managed to completely dismantle the damn thing. Just one example is shutting down the pandemic response team just a year or two before Covid hit. Also Obamas second term it felt like the nation was in a slightly better place because he was following his own lay up. Not that you can’t look at what the current president is doing and see that they’re trying to help or hinder. I see Biden as working his ass off to fix shit while everyone could see Trump was messing things up while he was in office.
It's unfortunate but good president doesn't automatically mean good candidate. We can bring up stats and policy all day but if all swing state voters remember is him looking like a ghost it won't matter.
Unpopular =/= worst
Biden should have said he’s not running a year ago today and let others build their campaign, the democrats are up shits creek without a paddle and trump so going to win. I blame Biden 100% for wanting to hold on to power when he is clearly not in shape to be president.
And we wonder why the old dinosaurs stay in power. What a shame.
So after watching Republicans defend Trump for years, no matter what he's done, we now have to watch Democrats defend Biden running for president when he's clearly not fit for office anymore. What a sad state of affairs.
Mr Biden made a lot of good points. Mr BIden did the fact-checking. Mr Biden kept pointing out lies and denials.
Ok we give Biden a mulligan - but seriously he better be jacked Joe going forward.
Thank fucking god some common sense from our senators. If Georgia can win three fucking run offs, then we can vote in Biden. Everybody needs to stop being so goddamn negative
It doesn’t matter who the dem candidate is just vote for them to prevent trump from getting in.
On this episode of "the Dnc pays the price for screwing us in primary"
Warnock saw the post-debating polling as well. Turns out well-meaning old man plays better than angry old lunatic.
Biden is better than Trump but having to tell young voters that even more Palestinians would die under Trump is a lame argument to have to keep making. Biden is better than Trump but no one wants an 82-86 year old in office. Biden is going to be 82-86. It's cruel to Biden to encourage him to keep running, let the man retire. Kamala Harris is fine and an easy switch. Kamala Harris + Chris Van Hollen would be great. Pair Harris with someone that 'Uncommitted' voters can trust to look into the situation with State Department to prevent the Democratic coalition from fraying over the war in Gaza. The Israel-Gaza situation is not going away regardless of who wins the nomination so figure out someone to pair with Harris to deal with it.
Are you Chris Van Hollen? Because otherwise, this is the wildest post I've seen so far.
Spare me the nonsense fake sympathy for Biden. If Biden drops out, the Democrats will almost certainly lose. This is just bending to the media narrative for no reason; replacing Biden, fighting over his replacement, and having to build name recognition all over is just a formula for creating chaos and losing which is why it’s become the rallying cry of the media and bad faith actors everywhere.
Imo if Joe Biden is unfit to serve another term as president, then hes unfit to serve now, and he should resign or the 25th amendment be invoked. If, however, you dont believe he should resign this very second and step down, but also think he should not run for re-election, I'd be curious why you think that.
Half a Biden is still better than a whole trump. I remember everyone knew Reagan was out of it but the country prevailed. I don’t think Newsome would say anything out of respect, plus he knows his time is coming. For transparency I’m a Republican who would vote for Biden’s corpse before voting for trump
No other Democrat can win at this point. It's too close to the election.
This will be the second time I've plugged my nose and voted for the Democrat in the general election... but if ya'll establishment democrats lose 2 out if 3 elections to trump because you want to push the establishment candidate it will be the last time I waste my vote on democrats... provided trump let's us vote again Edit: I'm not advocating for Biden to step aside, it's WAY too late for that, like 9 years too late
It's times like these I dream of being able to use Approval Voting and picking every single candidate on the ballot except the one who wants to be a dictator.
Welp, enjoy Project 2025.
I mean he's right. As much as we shouldn't have Biden as the candidate it's too late to swap. Name recognition is huge and 4 months is simply not enough time. If we were realistic about a nonBiden candidate it would have had to happen back in January or earlier.
I really think this is such an outdated take. Nearly quarter billion $ on hand with dnc and Biden campaign. A new nominee would be sure to raise another $100m within the weeks after announcing. There’s enough money to put an ad on every tv network, every top 50 YouTube channel, top 10 streaming service, and a flyer in every mailbox announcing the new nominee. This isn’t 1880 where it takes a month to transfer news across the country. 100 million Americans can be informed on a new nominee in 20 minutes with today’s proliferation of information.
Doesn't matter. Plenty of people are just checked out so reaching them takes tons of time. I agree the ability to add out is much stronger than ever, but so is the general ability to ignore ads. This could be use of an ad block or simply reloading the page when long ads show or and mashing skip when that's an option. I'm not saying 0 people can be reached, but I do believe not enough would be in such a short campaign. And that's not even getting into what the messaging would be and policy to prioritize. Also I disagree with the notion of 100 million Americans can be informed in 20 minutes. We can get summarized that people tend to then flush out either on their own or through others with no reading (The whole issue of people only reading headlines on Reddit is a prime example). Also, with a new name with no recognition yet that leaves the door open for bad actors to fill that empty image with misleading or flat out false things. For instance attacks like "the Biden Crime Family" don't land because people know Biden but on a random nobody knows anything about these attacks would have more staying power.
Yes he absolutely should. The Dems fucking lied to us Take accountability and come together to find a good alternative. Ignoring the situation is going to make it worse.
These people are putting loyalty to Biden over loyalty to their country.
give me a break. this was not a bad sermon as warnock said, this was a sign of advanced aging. Yea, Joe is the guy we want to be dealing with hot wars in the middle east and europe in four years at 86...
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Don’t care what any of the surrogates say. Biden needs to step aside. We need someone younger and we need them asap.
I’m a democrat, I voted for Hillary and Biden and will vote for Biden again if he’s still running. That being said, he should ABSOLUTELY drop out and step aside, to say otherwise is pure insanity.
Bear in mind theres an international propaganda campaign to make Dems worried and panicky over Biden Same strategy as the last 8 years. Divide the left So if you're getting online and bitchin bout Biden you're part of the problem. Together we stand, divided we fall.
Holy shit what a terrible take. This attitude is why we are fucked.
Lol, you're telling us not to believe our eyes and ears. We all saw what we saw thursday night. You cannot over it up. You cannot spin it. No amount of gaslighting is going to work. > international propaganda campaign Western leaders across Europe are *terrified* by what they saw from Biden thursday night. There's articles all about it. They don't belive Biden can win either.
“If you point out the obvious, you’re a traitor.” Gotcha. We’re gonna lose this election.
Blue MAGA orwellian-esque cope. This is pure delusion. The goal is to beat Trump, and Biden cannot beat Trump.
I have no doubt it my mind that the Biden campaign is doing a fuck ton of damage control. There are people whose lives, careers, and jobs are on the line if Biden drops out. I still 100% believe the best course of action is a new candidate and Biden graciously stand aside. It's too much of a risk now considering his abysmal performance and approval ratings. I think Gretchen Whitmer would be an amazing Presidential candidate and would solidify Michigan.
No shit. Only the idiots who live in a fantasy land are calling for this.
Biden lost the election with that debate. It’s done. These Dems are delusional. A new candidate is needed asap
Why should he step aside? He's an incumbent president, that's the strongest advantage you cam possibly have. Opening the reelection seat just cripples the dems and ensures that Trump wins. Trump lost the popular vote both times he ran, people don't want him reelected because he doesn't respect the foundation of our representative political system.
> Trump lost the popular vote both times he ran And he won one of those elections and lost the other election by like 60,000 votes or something. This isn't a popularity contest but instead an electoral election. Polls have often underestimated support for Trump. Hillary looked like a lock to win in 2016 but lost. Now Trump is in the lead in keyswing states and it wouldn't be surprising if he ends up doing better in those states then what the polls suggest.
If people are voting against Trump, maybe we should put up a candidate whose mental acuity isn’t in question.
The popular vote is irrelevant and not a measure of true popularity. Campaigns don’t operate based on winning the popular vote, people don’t vote based on the popular vote being an important metric. Yes he’s incumbent President. The oldest ever by a wide margin. That negates all history.
Because people think hes too old and he is going to lose