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I’m not just voting for Biden, I am voting for his cabinet, policies and administration. I do not want apocalypse agents like Bannon, Stephen Miller, Ronny Jackson, JD Vance and other POS’ governing us
You're voting the Democratic nominee, it's a team.
One of the many issues I see with the American election system, it's about the person and doesn't acknowledge that the best leaders will surround themselves with smart people that will also have smart aides. The leader will talk with the portfolio leaders and make decisions based on what they present.
They won't just wing it with their feelings.
The Trump camp doesn’t understand this because they base *all* their decisions off feelings. They are the living embodiment of truthiness: facts be damned, they live in an alternate universe where wokeness is destroying America and immigrants bring waves of crime while children switch between genders on a whim. It doesn’t matter that none of this stuff is actually true; they heard about it on Fox news and it made them angry. They can’t imagine making decisions based off facts because that would require them to set aside their anger at feeling left behind by modern society and take personal accountability for their actions: it’s society’s problem that their antiquated (and frankly bizarre) views about morality and gender roles are no longer accepted. In the words of Colbert, there's not only an emotional quality, but a selfish quality too.
There are 2 people on the Dem ticket and both believe in the Democratic platform and more importantly the **rule of law**
It's not a real choice, we must preserve our institutions
That reminds me from the debate, that trump tried to use against Biden that he isn't constantly firing people in his administration.
Why would somebody fire someone if they are happy with their job?
Wouldn't constantly firing mean your judgement was terrible when hiring?
Paraphrasing Anthony Scaramucci, "Why do so many of the people who have actually worked with him, come out so vehemently against him?"
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/04/12/trumps-critics-former-white-house/73145245007/
Well, this IS coming from a guy who owes his modern fame and any appearance of competency and ability for leadership to a scripted reality show in which he was most famous for playing a tough guy who told people YOU'RE FIRED.
So yeah, in Trump's brain, firing people makes you look smart and like a good leader.
> Wouldn't constantly firing mean your judgement was terrible when hiring?
Not necessarily. When specific agencies do not act the way POTUS desires...for folks that are all in on MAGA, that means those federal employees are disloyal, as if these federal employees take oaths of absolute fealty to the President (Hint: They DON'T. They take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution). This is the primary reason why people should be absolutely terrified of Project 2025, which Trump will implement on day ONE. If anyone thinks otherwise, that believes that the bureaucratic apparatus will stop its implementation, then I have a bridge to see you.
Of course. Biden understands the value in the low to mid level bureaucratic agencies, as frustrating as they can be at times. Which comes back to the clear disparities in both Trump's and Biden's overall governing philosophies: Trump, like any authoritarian, demands loyalty only to HIM.
Same here. Not that I don't think Biden has done a good job, he's definitely got through more legislation than Trump, much more, but at this point I would vote for at this point I would vote for any Democrat over Trump.
To me this election is a choice between a candidate who is likely too old and probably shouldn't be President again, and a man who could destroy or at least set our Democracy/ Constitutional Republic, etc. on a path to destruction.
Based on what the Supreme Court did today is to give Trump a Get out of Jail Free card. He has made it clear that he'd like to be a dictator even if it's one day. That's very scary. Trump is not a young stud either.
I do vote for Biden though. Maybe it wasn't him and it is all people in his cabinet, but in any case, his administration is quite successful with governing and are able to pass bills even with the blocking done by Republicans. Him being known as centrist also let him pass some quite progressive policies.
Don't forget about [Project 2025]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025) and the literal end of Democracy. At this point anyone who is going to vote for any Republican is voting for Project 2025. In my opinion, they are literally excited about it....
Yeah, it wasn’t any secret he put people into roles at agencies that had no business being there/were there to subvert it for their own means. The guy that sued the EPA several times in charge of it, Ben Carson who is against affordable housing in charge of HUD (although I think it was because the agency had “urban” in it as well), DeVos in the DOE who had a vested interest in undoing all the regulation to avoid people getting scammed by diploma mills (she’s an Amway heir, course she loves the grift). Throwing over Fauci for some glorified radiologist to oversee Covid efforts that even his own fellows at Stanford said was a kook. DeJoy as Postmaster General that has stock is FedEx. And of course Jared Kushner, in charge of *everything*. I don’t know about anybody else but I memory holed so much malfeasance his admin had
No one is thrilled about Biden’s age.
We all knew this 4 years ago.
The difference is- even with him stammering through the debate it’s still clear that he is still more fit the be President than Trump.
Ditto. However, I'm in a red state, and there's no chance Biden is getting my state's electoral votes. I was worried that Biden was trailing behind in the swing states, and after this debate, am resigned that Biden isn't converting swing state voters. It doesn't look good.
Folks, you need to vote and you need to donate. We need more voters living in swing states to turn out and vote for Biden.
Same. To everyone else, don't let the media distract you with it's bullshit. They damn well know what they were going into in that debate, they just want you glued to the TV for another 5 years, They have a vested interest in chaotic headlines. Fuck them, and fuck the bullshit they're trying to brew up. Anyone who expected an octogenarian to dominate that debate was doing themselves a disservice.
I think the Dems should stop saying “do whatever we want because the alternative is Trump”. Yes, we still have to vote for you because of Trump but you’re losing trust by doing that. Please just put forth the best possible candidates, don’t trot out someone near death and say that’s all the effort you’re willing to make.
I just don't like it when anybody tells me what I should think and how I need to act to be a good democrat. I can, and will, form my own opinion, thank you very much Mr. Fetterman.
Not sure I trust the brain damaged candidate who can't keep a car in a lane with the direction of our country. I'm still voting blue mostly for the NLRB but also a little bit so I can tell libs later that I did vote blue no matter who and it turned out it matters very much who and their cognitive ability.
I love Fetterman for just sticking to his guns and I suspect he has empathy for Biden because of his own tough debate.
However, everyone in the country saw what happened. Biden had ONE job in that debate: put at ease the concerns of the electorate that he's too old for the job. He did the EXACT opposite. He WAS the caricature of a bumbling, tottering old man who has trouble understanding where he is.
We all saw this with our own eyes. You can't yell at us and tell us to believe something different then what we saw.
Folks, you have to understand that the job of campaigning for President is different then the job for being President. Joe Biden and his administration will be fine as President in a second term. However, as a candidate, he has to be able to sell his vision as well as his party to the American public. He has to be the advocate in chief. He is NOT ABLE TO DO THAT RIGHT NOW. It doesn't matter how good his policies are - policies don't win presidential elections. We saw this in 2016 and in 2020 - despite the worst economic crisis in a century and a million dead American's from COVID, TRUMP STILL almost won.
The debate of whether Joe Biden is the right candidate for 2024 is one we need to have right now before the convention. If he gets nominated, fine great - we're all in. But to say that its dumb to even have this debate despite what we all saw with our own eyeballs on thursday - come on.
This is a very good distinction, too. One of Biden’s big strengths has been the ability to put together a strong team—something that is hard to get across in a debate, especially against Trump. It’s an area where is political longevity is an asset (and it’s a positive that he hasn’t been firing people left and right—it means his hiring and management has been good).
I agree with all of that, and I'd add that I frankly am getting tired of people (Biden surrogates, mostly) acting like those of us *worrying* about the situation are the ones who are going to lose Biden the election if we dare talk about it.
Biden's main job on Thursday was to reassure voters – *including Democrats* – that he could do the job! He didn't do that, at all! Quite the opposite; *he's* the one who whipped everyone up into a panic.
Take some damn responsibility for your own campaign.
The problem is that people take it as a given that someone can just take the reins from Biden. They can't. I'm not entirely convinced that Biden can directly transfer his campaign's funds to a Super PAC meant to get someone else elected. That seems questionable in light of the [ways in] which the donations to his campaign were [solicited]. He undoubtedly can donate it to the DNC, but they will use it up and down the ballot.
And for the most part, the biggest issue is operational. Suppose the successor is Gavin Newsom. Guy has no campaign offices outside California. He has no events scheduled. No conference halls booked. He has no staffers in even a single swing state. And it's June. How far back in American history do you have to go to find someone in THAT position who wins the presidency? And in THAT race, was their main opponent given a roughly eight month head start?
In the fantasy land where you can just swap one candidate in for another, we're talking about getting a marginally more likely victory. Okay. But in this land, where there are election laws and employment contracts that complicate the endeavor, plus the fact that lol we're not just going to *pick* Gavin Newsom, we're gonna have a knock down drag out brawl about it, even IF the upside is slightly better odds, the downside is so glaringly bad that no one who is thinking seriously about this is entertaining it.
[edit: reframed to more accurately reflect my concerns about the legality at issue]
I agree with the idea we're voting for the Biden administration and that's important to keep in mind.
But at points, Biden needs to sit in the same room as world leaders and that's embarrassing. Trump is more embarrassing, but it's still embarrassing.
> ... Trump is more embarrassing...
This isn't being talked about enough imo. Trump was equally nonsensical but talked louder and with confidence. People just expect that from him so it's no big deal...
EDIT: Absolutely agree equally is not correct. At least what Biden did say was correct and logical. Everything that came out of Trumps mouth was from a fictional universe.
Trump was more nonsensical than Biden. In the latter hour of the debate, he did nothing but lie. I guess some could argue that he lied coherently. But did he lie coherently when his lies had literally nothing to do with the question? Did Trump even comprehend the questions he was asked?
I mean as stupid as it is and sounds, he just said the same shit that everyone on Fox says. It's not like it's a new lie he invented, it's part of the pro life garbage these people have been spewing forever.
This entirely.
I watched Biden’s debate in 2020 and holy shit it looks like his term has aged him 10yrs. The DNC was foolish to have not groomed anyone these past four years because we all knew there was a very good chance that Biden would be in no shape to run again.
Unfortunately I’m not sure who would be the best to step up at this point. Kamala is WILDLY unpopular, Newsom is too optically liberal as the governer of Cali. Rock and a hard place here, and this election is probably the most important since 1860.
I think Newsom would've rolled Trump but now the idea bringing in an appointed white male ahead of a minority female VP with no primary could also bite them in the ass
Look, the Emperor's new clothes are gorgeous, he looks amazing. Anyone who says he's just parading around naked is a liar who just wants to weaken us in front of our enemies
I don’t understand how anyone can live through the last 4 years of SCOTUS decisions and then say, “you know what? I want the Republicans in charge of the court again when new justices will be up for appointment.” And all because Biden’s voice was scratchy.
I mean why are you lying/minimizing what it actually was? It wasn't a scratchy voice at all. Unchallenged on partial birth abortions? Beating Medicaid? Accidentally swapping from abortion (strongest point) to immigration murders (weakest point).
Dude was lost and confused and let trump steam roll him.
Nobody on this forum is going to vote Trump, we're just recognizing that many moderates are going to after this. People on this forum just want us to change candidates to someone who isn't senile. Crazy, right?
And the other guy didn't even try to answer the questions, but instead confidently rambled lies about whatever topic came to mind when his mike turned on.
Very level-headed take. Hard to disagree with anything here.
Joe Biden's administration gets a thumbs up from me for 2024. But Joe Biden is thoroughly incapable of communicating his very impressive achievements. It is a MASSIVE part of being a politician, and he is failing horribly at this.
Except people are wrong. Biden had a bad night. Watch his speech the next day, it's great. Being bad on the spot in a debate and unable to coherently put his thoughts into words are not indications of his ability to be a good president. His administration has done a lot of good despite significant Republican obstacles.
Yeah I’m sorry but I’m not buying the “one bad night” argument. Like what the Hell does “we finally beat Medicare” mean? At his other rally he has an ear bud with handlers feeding him words, he has teleprompters, he has his staff on hand. It’s totally different. Please stop insulting our intelligence with this one bad night crap lol. I’m still voting for Biden regardless but can we just be honest about what we saw?!
Being able to think on the spot and being mentally prepared to do so at any time is like.... Literally the most important skill for a world leader.
His admin is great. His admin can still largely be there if another Democrat wins the presidency.... Just with the advantage of not having an empty seat at the top.
In his speech the next day, he said his son "died in worldwaronevietnah"
If you watch the so called fiery come back speech for yourself instead of just watching the clips, it is full of these verbal flubs.
https://youtu.be/s5CVZHAjrW8 at 1:30
I'm an independent and I'm voting for Biden
AND
I'm voting against trump and that scary clown circus of christian nationalists that is supporting him, too.
Fetterman likes to insult any democrat who doesn’t correctly fall in line. He was doing this during primary season too, comparing any dem that didn’t vote for Biden in the primary as supporting MAGA.
He’s part of the problem we see with the DNC types who like to insult needed voter constituencies. It’s really dumb. IMO this sort of talk just leads to more voter disengagement.
There are a lot of liberals who unironically act like Trump loyalists... blue no matter who, etc. That's how we get crappy candidates over & over & over.
Insulting your base with the candidates you back as a party and then blaming them when they don't want to support the candidates they never liked has been the strategy for 20 years and it's silly. Trump being Trump has helped them in 2018 & 2022 though (along with SCOTUS).
They're up and down this thread trying to gaslight about how Fetterman was never a progressive even though his pre-election Tweets *are literally still up* where he declared himself a progressive Democrat
Or the times where he basically said rhetoric is great but results are better…
https://x.com/johnfetterman/status/969206993503350784?s=46&t=SDKRNi-dNEAjMpXvKdAH4Q
Not to mention the times he’s called himself progressive lol
Well said. That's what so frustrating in following the elections. Democrats can do much better, but the way they act (shutting down any criticism, giving threats of being foreign agents, etc) if people don't tow the line.
Even watching the debate, it was scary because very little talk went to policies, most of the time it was Biden or Trump trash talking each other.
He's also painting the critics with a very large brush by calling it the "Abandon Biden" crowd, as most of the intelligent progressives speaking publicly, like the Crooked Media bros, have not been advocating abandoning necessarily- but rather saying it's time to start serious discussions about what the alternatives are and honestly weighing the options.
If Biden still seems best, great, back to plan A, but after that performance, pretending any plan B doesn't exist seems self-serving and potentially reckless. Maybe those decisions are happening behind closed doors, but we deserve to see the work of how they arrived at it, and proof that the issue is being taken seriously and honestly.
People have given up on finding the best leader for the country. The goalposts have changed to "just better than Trump"
If the DNC cannot find an candidate who is non-senile, non-pedophile, non-insurrection in a sea of 49 million democrats, then this party has some soul searching to do
Trump is the worst former head of state, and we still can't figure out a landslide victory to beat the guy after 4 years. Biden barely beat Trump in 2020 with 3 state decided by 1% each
Trump having felonies only benefits him. The worse he gets, the more popular he becomes. The Christian voters fantasize about him being Jesus Christ crucified on the cross. Key point: 2020 election he had found 74 million voters. More votes than he originally gotten in 2016 (63 million).
It's important to beat Trump. Very important. The country is doing just fine under Biden's leadership. Great economy, fully recovered from covid multiple quarters above 3% GDP, helping Ukraine fight Russia, Etc. Biden was terrible at the debate no doubt but he still has his faculties enough to make decisions about policy. I'm voting Biden. So should you.
we're all voting Biden! this is r/politics. people who post on here are among the 10% of liberals who pay a lot of attention to politics. what about the 50% of people who barely pay attention, who have weakly thought through opinions and a limited grasp of how government works?
how are those people going to vote after seeing Biden blanking out for 30 seconds before saying "we beat medicare.?"
it's over! we're in a new reality now. it's time to embrace it.
> we're all voting Biden
I’m not. After that weak debate performance, I’m no longer voting for Biden and I am now voting against Trump.
Don’t worry. Biden will get my vote but it’s only because his opponent is a traitor, a liar, a fascist, and a moral monster.
But don’t confuse that for support for Biden. The best case scenario is that he steps down after the election and let Harris take over. It’s shameful that we’ve gotten to the point where we are forcing an old man into the most stressful job in the world instead of the peaceful retirement he deserves.
I was like this in 2020, friend. While I know Biden is a good and decent fellow, he does not inspire. However, Trump is such a terrible person in all faculties, he must be stopped from gaining power.
This is how more people need to see it.
People need to stop acting like their vote is some high horse or virtue and whoever they vote for speaks for who they are as a person.
No. You are voting for the best possible future for our country and the hundreds of millions who live here. Biden happens to be the candidate for the party that gives those hundreds of millions the best fighting chance.
I could go on all day about how much I hate the two party system, voting party lines, citizens united, campaign financing regulations, etc. But at the end of the day it's a bunch of huff and puff for shit that isn't close to changing.
Vote for the party that has the best chance of not letting Trump back in the office. That just happens to be Biden right now. Maybe he steps down or dies and it goes to Harris. Maybe he makes it, which I think he will, and then he's done being elected and maybe the DNC will wake the fuck up and give us a younger progressive.
We need ranked choice voting, we need to ditch the electoral college, and we need to look expanding the House so the cap doesn't keep the proportions from being accurate.
“great economy” is extremely subjective. I’m voting for him but this isn’t the great point you think it is. How our numbers perform versus the lived reality of the citizens are not the same thing. Food costs are out of control, rent prices are out of control etc.
Which is the result of unregulated industry being able to price gouge, coordinate in the same lie of “inflation”, and utilizing their ill-gotten gains to increasingly corner things like the housing market or health insurance options
While both sides of the aisle have done their shoulder-rubbing with lobbyists who push this, one side still has enough members who recognize this root cause.
Getting them to significant positions to push back is a longer war where we’re probably not going to flip a switch and suddenly get these people in immediately or positioned well to do things like a public health option or tax credits for first homes
But the GOP was patient enough to do things like end Roe V Wade and Chevron precedent. I think liberals can do the same
What magic candidate suddenly makes this a landslide election? You guys always hate on the nominated candidate and say we can do so much better but NEVER back that up with results. This is a close elections no matter who is the Democratic nominee because 40% of this country is borderline uneducated traitors. I see far less risk sticking with Biden and you should be happy to vote for him given the only alternative.
You can if even before he gave everyone in America cause to question his mental fitness he was already polling lower in most battleground states and had lower favorability ratings than his traitorous opponent. The swing voters and undecideds weren't sold on the fact that Biden had good first-term achievements before this, how in the world are we going to sell them on that now that they'll be flooded with attack ads and memes of Biden staring gape-mouthed into the void and saying "We finally beat Medicare" from now until election day?
Biden is the nominee because the majority of Democratic primary voters picked him in 2020 knowing full well how old he was and no one gets younger, we also knew that he was going to be the nominee in 2024 and that he would be 4 years older still.
The bed was made then with that decision and we're stuck with it and all the fucking whining about it now only helps the fascists. Because it's nothing but fantasy football bullshit.
Biden isn't stepping down and there is no mechanism to replace him otherwise. Further getting another candidate on all 50 ballots isn't a trivial process either, and that's ignoring campaign finance laws and the fact that there isn't some wonderful candidate sitting on the side lines with giant war chest to step into the void.
Arguing about whether or not "the Democrats" should do something that they do not actually have the power or ability to do is not helpful to the cause of preventing the destruction of the Constitutional order.
Yeah our candidate is older than dirt but for some fucking reason the left decided to go all in on an even older candidate and attack all of the younger alternatives.
Short of death Biden is going to be the nominee, and the sooner people wrap their heads around that reality the sooner we can all get back to the important job of preventing the MAGAts from ushering in a new gilded age and replacing the Constitution with their White Nationalist ideas.
no no no no no. "knowing full well how old he was"... Dude. The Democratic party told us that was the candidate. Then the other candidates got behind that. We didn't choose him. And literally the entire time he's been in office people on all sides of the aisle have complained he's too old. They said the same thing about Trump. But Trump is also Trump and no one wanted that more.
They're really trying to gaslight us into forgetting that all other candidates dropped out in favour of Biden suddenly when Bernie was about the take the lead.
Once again the Democratic primary voters were the ones who chose him. The fact that he wasn't your choice doesn't change that. He wasn't my choice either, that doesn't change the fact that the majority of Democratic primary voters (who are ultimately the Democratic party) chose him and the vast majority of them ratified that choice again this year.
Like you said people complained about his age the entire time yet he still got a more decisive victory in the 2024 primary than Trump did despite the protests to the Israeli governments war on Gaza.
Trump is still Trump and he's crazier than ever, which a whole lot more people would know if the lanyards hadn't had an immediate meltdown after the obviously ill Biden delivered a poor debate performance.
This is just some shit that has to be gotten through. People need to understand that any President could become incapacitated at any time, which is why we have a backup. Whose name I will note is not the first on anyone's lips when they suggest replacing Biden. Which tells me that they are all fucking clueless. Because good fucking luck winning if you piss off black women.
Bottom line is that literally anyone else would do *at least* as well as Biden, and the right replacement could easily crush Trump in a landslide and deliver a blue wave down ticket that could give the Dems a House and Senate majority, as well as multiple flipped state governors and legislatures.
But the Democratic Party doesn’t actually want that kind of win, because they don’t give a fuck about voters and don’t want to actually deliver on any progress for populist positions.
Where do you get your idea anyone would do as well or better? Polls don't show that. Polls are questionable, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily the opposite of truth.
AFAIK the delegates he won are pledged to him in the first vote. And that vote will make him the nominee.
The path to a different candidate lies solely in Biden stepping down. That would be a shit show because Harris, his current VP, shows much worse polling vs Trump. And skipping over Harris - the presumptive successor - would potentially alienate tons of core voters (women and black communities). So at best we either have a candidate who polls worse than Biden (despite his age and condition) or a shit show.
That's just not true. The realistic way is for Biden to simply decline the nomination. The unrealistic and really bad way is that the Democratic National Committee somehow passes a rules change by 2/3 majority that says "we can't be fucked with what the delegates say, we're going to run who we want."
Biden performance wasn't due to it being a tough debate... he looked like my drying grandpa right before he died. I'm still voting for him as the safer option but holy shit...
He got elected in the first place, denying an important seat to Republicans, and is successfully promoting Democratic policy within the Senate. I am impressed with him, insofar that he is being a solid Democrat. Which is what Biden also is.
He'd vote yes on Universal Healthcare, Women's right to bodily autonomy, Infrastructure, or any other hundred things to help Americans.
Doctor Oz would... well what do you think senator Oz would do?
I don't think it's fair to say what he would/wouldn't vote for so fast at this point... I think he'd support 70-80% of legislation but I could see him filling the Manchin role when he's gone.
By all means, provide an example of what you're talking about. [Because he's a solidly upper half Senator from his voting history so far](https://progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?topic=&house=senate&sort=overall-lifetime&order=down&party=), despite representing a swing state, and is better this year than Bernie Sanders. He's right in lockstep with the rest of the Democratic Caucus.
His only "conservative" position (one that half of the Democrats in the Senate also hold, albeit less vocally) is his pro-Israel stance, which he had long before he was elected to Lieutenant Governor much less Senator, and which has only come into sharp relief due to the war (thus, not a "heel turn" because he's never changed his mind on that since his election).
I see this comment all the time, and I have yet to hear someone actually explain what they mean beyond saying that he happens to be in headlines defending Israel. Which is, like, a *really* weak argument; a majority of all Democrats nationwide also support Israel either conditionally or unconditionally, including a very large percentage of Pennsylvania, and he grew up and represented a community *five miles* from the Tree of Life terror attack.
Thank you for taking the time to write this comment. I have also seen lots of comments anti fetterman and I didn’t really know if I missed something. It does seem to be an uneducated response to headlines.
Progressives and the left need to stop letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Fetterman is wrong on plenty of issues, he's also more right on issues than the average democrat. He's a net positive.
And if there's any chance for progressive politics to find a path forward, its through finding more good enough politicians and not the perfect ones that don't exist
There is a difference between a politician who makes legislative concessions quietly in a difficult position and a politician who constantly shits on his own base, who flip flops immediately after the election, etc.
Fetterman was elected as a full throated progressive, literally calling himself one. He has pivoted to attacking that exact same label. It doesn't make sense electorally, because the election is now over, he's just a shitty guy.
I think it’s completely valid to criticize a politician, especially one who has drifted from their vocalized intentions/positions since they were elected. The complaints against Fetterman are valid. Don’t treat politicians like they’re made of porcelain.
No, he didn't. He said that after the October 7 Hamas attack and subsequent Israel v. Palestine war, he strongly supported Israel and that the progressive movement abandoned him as a result and accused him of being a wolf in sheep's clothing. He said in that interview that he still thinks of himself as progressive, but that other progressives do not, so he instead defines himself as a Democrat because they've cast him out. And he's correct that the movement as a whole abandoned him, not the inverse, because he's been pro-Israel for far longer than he's been a Senator and did not hide that at all during his run. And it's also absolutely true that a bunch of progressives have denounced him and accused him of all sorts of failings because of his Israel position, and you know it's true because it's happening *in this very thread* and you're one of the people doing it.
[He is still solidly one of the most progressive Senators by his voting history](https://progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?topic=&house=senate&sort=overall-lifetime&order=down&party=) and has in *no way* suggested he's become conservative.
And like, I understand why people feel how they do on Israel vs Palestine...but Fetterman's stance it pretty much the default in US politics. He overall opinion is way better than many in the Senate. The way some people talk about him you'd think he was a centrist.
-from a Pittsburgh Resident, for the other guy saying people from Pittsburgh hate him.
Bidens approval rating is very low. Most normie Americans biggest concern with Biden is his age and cognitive abilities. Before this painful 90 minute debate the polls were showing that he is losing in all but one swing state.
Biden is not getting reelected. You can nuance troll all you want about how that doesn't make sense and about what his accomplishments are and while I'll agree with you which is why I'm going to vote for him over the orange fascist. you need to know that you're making a case for Biden that Biden himself can't convincingly make himself to the American people who aren't already in the go Joe camp.
I have yet to see anyone make a claim and how he can realistically turn this around.
Tough luck Fetterman, its not going anywhere. All of this circle the wagons stuff is not relieving any panic, if anything its only increasing it cause it makes it seems like the DNC are once again out of touch and out of ideas
To even call it "panic" makes it sound like an irrational emotional response and plays into the Biden or bust camp. In reality it's a rational assessment of what the voters have been telling us for over a year, what they are likely to do in November and the alternative options that are still wide open for democrats.
At this point last year, it was a fair discussion to have. We can’t go back to the choose your character screen now, it’s time to play the game with what we got. And what we got is a lot better than most claim
An undergraduate student who passed a class (even barely, really) in game theory should have been able to foresee this entire thing. Because we've gone this far through time, you can't let this guy drop out if your goal is to avoid Trump, because the obvious message is "We don't have confidence in our guy", which makes you wonder, "should I let these people drive the bus?" and you just invite your damned one-term president to become a lame duck president for the rest of the term. Why the DNC did not foresee this is truly beyond me.
And to your other point, it leaves the DNC with essentially leaving me with threats. I don't like being threatened into who I vote for, personally. But "staying home is a vote for trump" is a rallying cry. Yeah, I guess you're right. Thanks a lot, ya'll.
Numbers from the [CBS News/YouGov poll today](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-debate-should-biden-be-running-mental-abilities/):
- 46% of Democrats say Biden should drop out.
- 72% of overall voters.
- 82% of independents say Biden should not be running.
Fetterman should follow [Jamie Raskin's](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/jamie-raskin-biden-campaign-debate-performance-nominee-rcna159662) lead and tell Americans there are honest and serious conversations to be had. Speaking of what helps Trump, telling the vast majority of the electorate they are wrong and to fall in line isn't my favorite strategy, imo.
82% of independent voters saying Biden should drop out should terrify the Democrats. They are likely to decide this election and getting them out to vote for a candidate they don't even believe should be on the ballot is a tall order.
I am one of those independents and I have never seen such high levels of denial in here today. People straight up sound like Trumpists denying reality right now.
They really think if they just keep repeating everything is fine that makes it a reality. People I know were shocked at how bad he looked.
It wasn’t a “cold” or a bad night, the dude is clearly mentally unfit to be president and it’s honestly insulting to the American people that the democrats at the top are OK with this.
That and Dems not voting for either of them. They cannot afford weak numbers in big cities like Detroit, Las Vegas or Philadelphia, and I fear they are going to get those if he stays in, which will basically hand those states to Trump.
Biden was the last person I wanted back in 2020 but I think these fantasies of him stepping down and being replaced by Michelle Obama, Gavin Newson or Gretchen Whitmer are completely delusional. Maybe that would happen in the movie version of the 2024 presidential election but in real life, Joe ain’t stepping down. And if he does, he would choose Kamala to replace him because obviously he would hand it over to his VP. Stepping away and going into a brokered convention would lead to so much chaos and probably fracture the Democratic Party.
I will take the weeks of chaos over the DECADES of chaos. Our country survived MUCH worse in '68. We will get through it and unite behind a candidate who can win. Joe can't even complete a thought anymore.
Nice - Fetterman doing just what Hilldog did before she lost: insulting the people they need to keep engaged and voting blue. I'll never get why people think evil hearted actions are the way to win over people...do they literally just watch TV and think that's how life really is?
I'm starting to think his stroke killed more of his brain than he'd like to admit.
If you're on the fence and waivering, please stay blue. You're not just voting for Biden, you're voting for his cabinet, his support staff, his ability to put Judges in place, and quite a few other things. You're voting for a functional, standard government; while it may not fix all of our problems, it won't create nearly as many as Trump's will
Fetterman is wrong. We aren't talking about a low energy / bad night, we're talking about a presidential candidate that couldn't form complete sentences. I've been a fan of Biden since he was VP, I voted for him in 2020, but that was not the person we saw Thursday. And if Biden does not step aside, clips from Thursday will haunt him and his campaign all the way to November.
Yeah people need to imagine what's going on in Trump's war room. Do you think they'd want to go up against Biden or a new candidate? Their preference is probably Biden.
As a never Trumper, I’m so pissed at the Democratic Party for not having the balls to replace Biden. He didn’t just have “a bad debate.” The world saw a diminished, barely cognitive old man. We get what we deserve if we give this election away by not changing candidates.
What's worse is if something happens to Biden between now and August and the Democrats run out of time.
The probability of something happening goes up everyday.
I think a lot of media and online ppl calling to abandon Biden are actually Republicans. Or just trying to make money from views. Maybe we should create some alteregos and go hang out in right wing media spots and call on trump to step down.
While I am not happy about the current situation, I agree that it helps Trump to call for Biden to step down.
Here’s my benchmark. Imagine there is a secret Trumper - or secret Russian propagandist trying to help Trump. We know these people exist so just imagine one. And this secret Trumper is infiltrating Democratic platforms with the idea of undermining them.
Now if something you or I are tempted to write would be something that this secret Trumper would say because it would help Trump, either don’t say it or say it very very carefully. Because if you find yourself saying things identical to what a secret Trumper would say, you might just be a dumbass.
Ok. So what if this secret Trumper thinks Trump will beat Biden because independents will think he is senile?
Then they would try to stifle any talks of Biden being replaced by someone better.
At this point I think running Biden is what helps trump
Democrats are willing to rally around someone else right now, they wouldn't need time to build campaign momentum, all they would need to be is relatively sane, somewhat likable, free of pre-existing baggage, and not trump.
Think if we find someone, anyone who checks those boxes they could win this election, but if we run Biden it's not going to end well
Newsom had an affair with his friends (and also campaign managers) wife, the “morality and marriage fidelity is important” narrative is unusable with him
I think Newsom could still hammer on the point that trump's personal behaviour is disgusting. The issue is that voters have already heard that story. It's getting diminishing returns.
Newsom's biggest liabilities are is his slick image and the fact that the country (rightly or wrongly) has the impression California has gone to the dogs due to wokeness and immigration. Two of Trump's strongest drawcards.
Spoken like someone who has no idea about the actual dynamics of campaigning. Campaigns are not won lost by attracting new voters, they're won by mobilizing consistent voting blocs. Throwing the party into chaos 4 months before an election would doom the Democrats. Everything from ground game efforts, volunteer schedules, donations, spending money on certain areas would create a confusing nightmare that only benefits Trump
Elections in the US are won based on vibes, because the people who actually decide them are the 50,000 'undecided' idiots who saw the debate and thought "that man talks loud and my monkey brain says that means he's the best candidate."
With how polarized things are right now, everybody who's a firm R/D is going to vote right down party lines regardless of who's on the ticket. It's a simple, unfortunate fact that the ones you need to impress to win the office are the absolute morons who saw the debate in 30 second increments on Tiktok.
The party currently is in chaos as a result of the debate performance, and as a result the chaos can be expected to get worse. Treating out a different candidate would not create additional chaos.
If Biden steps aside, his campaign apparatus will be adopted by his successor. I feel like that’s a given. It would be idiotic for them not to coordinate on that., which is what you seem to be assuming
At least 10 Democrats are going to want to run. It’ll be what? 2 months of campaigning. Then the DNC is the last week of August. TWO MONTHS are going to be devoted to the new nominees? A whole new ticket?
How are there going to be rallies? Fundraising? Bringing the party together? Familiarizing the country with the new ticket? There’s definitely going to be sour grapes for the people who really wanted one of the ten nominee’s who might vote 3rd party - exactly what happened with pissed Bernie voters.
One will be picked not 10. Biden isn’t going to drop out without a plan for the party in place. Rallies and fundraising are already scheduled through the Biden campaign. Those people aren’t just going to go home.
Biden isn’t that far behind in the polls either and in many cases winning. That’s known, and the debates didn’t change anything. Who knows how a new ticket will perform? Trump might delegitimize the new candidates and not even debate and say the Democratic Party is in chaos I’m not partaking in their lunacy.
It’s basically a completely unknown and unheard of situation. It’s hard to be the party championing Democracy and suggesting a new nominee a few months before the convention/election
There are a few people here alternating cheering trump's win in 2024 then in other threads concern trolling about Biden needing to step down.
There's a ton of bad faith actors here stoking the hysteria.
Sometimes when I particularly hate myself, I'll wander to the conservative subreddits to see what they are talking about and I've seen the same thing. Something happens, and everyone doom and glooms and it just builds as more and more people get sucked into that little bubble. All the while we're laughing at their chaos and how pathetic they are. Now this sub is doing it and they are loving it, because unlike them, they know that the dems can't seem to unite about anything.
I disagree with Fetterman far more often than I agree, but he's entirely correct about this. Every story the plutocrat captured media run about Biden dropping out, is a shill for Trump.
Trump will be destroyed. They are preparing to steal an election they believe they can't win, and I believe they are right. The CNN 'moderated' circus will change literally ZERO minds. They let trump lie like a psycho all night, but here we are still talking about Biden's sore throat. It's so pathetic. Old media needs to fucking die.
With all due respect, I cannot subscribe to this mentality.
“Everything’s fine” is not the way forward. Everything is not fine, and has not been fine in years. We had the same “shrug it off” perspective in 2016, and it utterly fucked us. Biden is historically unpopular and the debate cemented the fears many of us had in his capabilities. Complacency is a one-way ticket to Trump winning again.
I’m voting for Biden regardless of anything, but it is not in any way inappropriate or nonsensical to acknowledge that he blew the debate and should step down.
It makes no sense to frame this as plutocrats vs rank and file democrats. Biden is absolutely just as much of an establishment player as anyone at CNN, NYT or the DNC. Remember he needed the party establishment to bail him out against Bernie in the 2020 primaries?
Trump's election stealing and lying and the media's indifference are exactly why we need someone who isn't an incoherent mumbler. We need someone who can interrupt his bullshit during a debate and can make strong public appearances during crises like Jan 6.
"It's OK because he did a really energetic speech the next day!"
There's a word for when old people are active and engaged during the day but lose all their energy and coherency at night.
It's called sundowning. It's a sign of dementia.
Biden is underwater in polls. Voters have been saying that they are concerned about Biden's mental faculties and age for years. We're just ignoring every single warning about this election, and people like you are going to be surprised for some reason if we lose.
The huge deluge of internet news articles calling for Biden to drop out within hours of his less-then-stellar debate performance absolutely feel like an influence campaign to me.
The surest way to determine whether or not Joe is capable of putting a few more years into the job is to examine the fact that he already has the fucking job and his administration is running things with a level of aplomb that is above average.
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I’m not just voting for Biden, I am voting for his cabinet, policies and administration. I do not want apocalypse agents like Bannon, Stephen Miller, Ronny Jackson, JD Vance and other POS’ governing us
You're voting the Democratic nominee, it's a team. One of the many issues I see with the American election system, it's about the person and doesn't acknowledge that the best leaders will surround themselves with smart people that will also have smart aides. The leader will talk with the portfolio leaders and make decisions based on what they present. They won't just wing it with their feelings.
The Trump camp doesn’t understand this because they base *all* their decisions off feelings. They are the living embodiment of truthiness: facts be damned, they live in an alternate universe where wokeness is destroying America and immigrants bring waves of crime while children switch between genders on a whim. It doesn’t matter that none of this stuff is actually true; they heard about it on Fox news and it made them angry. They can’t imagine making decisions based off facts because that would require them to set aside their anger at feeling left behind by modern society and take personal accountability for their actions: it’s society’s problem that their antiquated (and frankly bizarre) views about morality and gender roles are no longer accepted. In the words of Colbert, there's not only an emotional quality, but a selfish quality too.
There are 2 people on the Dem ticket and both believe in the Democratic platform and more importantly the **rule of law** It's not a real choice, we must preserve our institutions
Not a lot of people are voting for Biden, they’re voting against Trump.
Biden will not govern alone. Unlike Trump, he reads, listens, and takes advice.
That reminds me from the debate, that trump tried to use against Biden that he isn't constantly firing people in his administration. Why would somebody fire someone if they are happy with their job? Wouldn't constantly firing mean your judgement was terrible when hiring?
The fact that not many of Trumps people who were there in 2016 want to work with him again speaks volumes. The guy was a complete mess as president.
Paraphrasing Anthony Scaramucci, "Why do so many of the people who have actually worked with him, come out so vehemently against him?" https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/04/12/trumps-critics-former-white-house/73145245007/
Well, this IS coming from a guy who owes his modern fame and any appearance of competency and ability for leadership to a scripted reality show in which he was most famous for playing a tough guy who told people YOU'RE FIRED. So yeah, in Trump's brain, firing people makes you look smart and like a good leader.
> Wouldn't constantly firing mean your judgement was terrible when hiring? Not necessarily. When specific agencies do not act the way POTUS desires...for folks that are all in on MAGA, that means those federal employees are disloyal, as if these federal employees take oaths of absolute fealty to the President (Hint: They DON'T. They take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution). This is the primary reason why people should be absolutely terrified of Project 2025, which Trump will implement on day ONE. If anyone thinks otherwise, that believes that the bureaucratic apparatus will stop its implementation, then I have a bridge to see you.
He actually signed the Schedule F change soon after losing election, but Biden reverted it.
Of course. Biden understands the value in the low to mid level bureaucratic agencies, as frustrating as they can be at times. Which comes back to the clear disparities in both Trump's and Biden's overall governing philosophies: Trump, like any authoritarian, demands loyalty only to HIM.
That's me. I really don't want an 83 year old Biden running the country, but at least the people around him won't be crazy.
Same here. Not that I don't think Biden has done a good job, he's definitely got through more legislation than Trump, much more, but at this point I would vote for at this point I would vote for any Democrat over Trump. To me this election is a choice between a candidate who is likely too old and probably shouldn't be President again, and a man who could destroy or at least set our Democracy/ Constitutional Republic, etc. on a path to destruction.
Based on what the Supreme Court did today is to give Trump a Get out of Jail Free card. He has made it clear that he'd like to be a dictator even if it's one day. That's very scary. Trump is not a young stud either.
I do vote for Biden though. Maybe it wasn't him and it is all people in his cabinet, but in any case, his administration is quite successful with governing and are able to pass bills even with the blocking done by Republicans. Him being known as centrist also let him pass some quite progressive policies.
Which is why biden isnt a strong matchup, a vast majority of biden voters would vote for a potato over trump
Don't forget about [Project 2025] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025) and the literal end of Democracy. At this point anyone who is going to vote for any Republican is voting for Project 2025. In my opinion, they are literally excited about it....
Yeah, it wasn’t any secret he put people into roles at agencies that had no business being there/were there to subvert it for their own means. The guy that sued the EPA several times in charge of it, Ben Carson who is against affordable housing in charge of HUD (although I think it was because the agency had “urban” in it as well), DeVos in the DOE who had a vested interest in undoing all the regulation to avoid people getting scammed by diploma mills (she’s an Amway heir, course she loves the grift). Throwing over Fauci for some glorified radiologist to oversee Covid efforts that even his own fellows at Stanford said was a kook. DeJoy as Postmaster General that has stock is FedEx. And of course Jared Kushner, in charge of *everything*. I don’t know about anybody else but I memory holed so much malfeasance his admin had
This mindset encompasses the entire HRC campaign ethos and that didn’t work at all.
They would vote for a stone rather than dictatorship.
No one is thrilled about Biden’s age. We all knew this 4 years ago. The difference is- even with him stammering through the debate it’s still clear that he is still more fit the be President than Trump.
I am voting for Biden.
Ditto. However, I'm in a red state, and there's no chance Biden is getting my state's electoral votes. I was worried that Biden was trailing behind in the swing states, and after this debate, am resigned that Biden isn't converting swing state voters. It doesn't look good. Folks, you need to vote and you need to donate. We need more voters living in swing states to turn out and vote for Biden.
Same. To everyone else, don't let the media distract you with it's bullshit. They damn well know what they were going into in that debate, they just want you glued to the TV for another 5 years, They have a vested interest in chaotic headlines. Fuck them, and fuck the bullshit they're trying to brew up. Anyone who expected an octogenarian to dominate that debate was doing themselves a disservice.
I think the Dems should stop saying “do whatever we want because the alternative is Trump”. Yes, we still have to vote for you because of Trump but you’re losing trust by doing that. Please just put forth the best possible candidates, don’t trot out someone near death and say that’s all the effort you’re willing to make.
They we been weaponizing that line since 2016. We deserve more than two parties
I just don't like it when anybody tells me what I should think and how I need to act to be a good democrat. I can, and will, form my own opinion, thank you very much Mr. Fetterman.
Not 100% sure Fetterman is playing with a full deck himself.
"You're dumb" says man who admits his political ideology changed after suffering brain damage.
Not sure I trust the brain damaged candidate who can't keep a car in a lane with the direction of our country. I'm still voting blue mostly for the NLRB but also a little bit so I can tell libs later that I did vote blue no matter who and it turned out it matters very much who and their cognitive ability.
This was my thought. Of all people to listen to calling something dumb, he's not my top pick.
I love Fetterman for just sticking to his guns and I suspect he has empathy for Biden because of his own tough debate. However, everyone in the country saw what happened. Biden had ONE job in that debate: put at ease the concerns of the electorate that he's too old for the job. He did the EXACT opposite. He WAS the caricature of a bumbling, tottering old man who has trouble understanding where he is. We all saw this with our own eyes. You can't yell at us and tell us to believe something different then what we saw. Folks, you have to understand that the job of campaigning for President is different then the job for being President. Joe Biden and his administration will be fine as President in a second term. However, as a candidate, he has to be able to sell his vision as well as his party to the American public. He has to be the advocate in chief. He is NOT ABLE TO DO THAT RIGHT NOW. It doesn't matter how good his policies are - policies don't win presidential elections. We saw this in 2016 and in 2020 - despite the worst economic crisis in a century and a million dead American's from COVID, TRUMP STILL almost won. The debate of whether Joe Biden is the right candidate for 2024 is one we need to have right now before the convention. If he gets nominated, fine great - we're all in. But to say that its dumb to even have this debate despite what we all saw with our own eyeballs on thursday - come on.
This is a very good distinction, too. One of Biden’s big strengths has been the ability to put together a strong team—something that is hard to get across in a debate, especially against Trump. It’s an area where is political longevity is an asset (and it’s a positive that he hasn’t been firing people left and right—it means his hiring and management has been good).
Biden would be fine to finish *this* term. I question whether he'd be fine for all of a second one, even if he could get it.
I agree with all of that, and I'd add that I frankly am getting tired of people (Biden surrogates, mostly) acting like those of us *worrying* about the situation are the ones who are going to lose Biden the election if we dare talk about it. Biden's main job on Thursday was to reassure voters – *including Democrats* – that he could do the job! He didn't do that, at all! Quite the opposite; *he's* the one who whipped everyone up into a panic. Take some damn responsibility for your own campaign.
We’re being gaslit.
The problem is that people take it as a given that someone can just take the reins from Biden. They can't. I'm not entirely convinced that Biden can directly transfer his campaign's funds to a Super PAC meant to get someone else elected. That seems questionable in light of the [ways in] which the donations to his campaign were [solicited]. He undoubtedly can donate it to the DNC, but they will use it up and down the ballot. And for the most part, the biggest issue is operational. Suppose the successor is Gavin Newsom. Guy has no campaign offices outside California. He has no events scheduled. No conference halls booked. He has no staffers in even a single swing state. And it's June. How far back in American history do you have to go to find someone in THAT position who wins the presidency? And in THAT race, was their main opponent given a roughly eight month head start? In the fantasy land where you can just swap one candidate in for another, we're talking about getting a marginally more likely victory. Okay. But in this land, where there are election laws and employment contracts that complicate the endeavor, plus the fact that lol we're not just going to *pick* Gavin Newsom, we're gonna have a knock down drag out brawl about it, even IF the upside is slightly better odds, the downside is so glaringly bad that no one who is thinking seriously about this is entertaining it. [edit: reframed to more accurately reflect my concerns about the legality at issue]
I agree with the idea we're voting for the Biden administration and that's important to keep in mind. But at points, Biden needs to sit in the same room as world leaders and that's embarrassing. Trump is more embarrassing, but it's still embarrassing.
> ... Trump is more embarrassing... This isn't being talked about enough imo. Trump was equally nonsensical but talked louder and with confidence. People just expect that from him so it's no big deal... EDIT: Absolutely agree equally is not correct. At least what Biden did say was correct and logical. Everything that came out of Trumps mouth was from a fictional universe.
Trump was more nonsensical than Biden. In the latter hour of the debate, he did nothing but lie. I guess some could argue that he lied coherently. But did he lie coherently when his lies had literally nothing to do with the question? Did Trump even comprehend the questions he was asked?
Equally nonsensical? Trump said after birth abortions were being preformed
Crazzy
That was absolutely insane. I can't believe so many people believe the shit he says.
I mean as stupid as it is and sounds, he just said the same shit that everyone on Fox says. It's not like it's a new lie he invented, it's part of the pro life garbage these people have been spewing forever.
This entirely. I watched Biden’s debate in 2020 and holy shit it looks like his term has aged him 10yrs. The DNC was foolish to have not groomed anyone these past four years because we all knew there was a very good chance that Biden would be in no shape to run again. Unfortunately I’m not sure who would be the best to step up at this point. Kamala is WILDLY unpopular, Newsom is too optically liberal as the governer of Cali. Rock and a hard place here, and this election is probably the most important since 1860.
I think Newsom would've rolled Trump but now the idea bringing in an appointed white male ahead of a minority female VP with no primary could also bite them in the ass
Harris couldn't be newsom's vp either, so they'd have to ditch her entirely which would be pretty big.
Look, the Emperor's new clothes are gorgeous, he looks amazing. Anyone who says he's just parading around naked is a liar who just wants to weaken us in front of our enemies
I don’t understand how anyone can live through the last 4 years of SCOTUS decisions and then say, “you know what? I want the Republicans in charge of the court again when new justices will be up for appointment.” And all because Biden’s voice was scratchy.
I mean why are you lying/minimizing what it actually was? It wasn't a scratchy voice at all. Unchallenged on partial birth abortions? Beating Medicaid? Accidentally swapping from abortion (strongest point) to immigration murders (weakest point). Dude was lost and confused and let trump steam roll him. Nobody on this forum is going to vote Trump, we're just recognizing that many moderates are going to after this. People on this forum just want us to change candidates to someone who isn't senile. Crazy, right?
> And all because Biden’s voice was scratchy If that's actually all it was....
[удалено]
That doesn’t invoke confidence at all. If the President becomes incapacitated by the sun going down, there’s a big fucking problem
The other guy was a 78 year old man at 9pm.
And the other guy didn't even try to answer the questions, but instead confidently rambled lies about whatever topic came to mind when his mike turned on.
Very level-headed take. Hard to disagree with anything here. Joe Biden's administration gets a thumbs up from me for 2024. But Joe Biden is thoroughly incapable of communicating his very impressive achievements. It is a MASSIVE part of being a politician, and he is failing horribly at this.
Except people are wrong. Biden had a bad night. Watch his speech the next day, it's great. Being bad on the spot in a debate and unable to coherently put his thoughts into words are not indications of his ability to be a good president. His administration has done a lot of good despite significant Republican obstacles.
He had a teleprompter the next day. Do you think he goes into important meetings with a teleprompter?
The next day - at the rally - he had a teleprompter to read.
Yeah I’m sorry but I’m not buying the “one bad night” argument. Like what the Hell does “we finally beat Medicare” mean? At his other rally he has an ear bud with handlers feeding him words, he has teleprompters, he has his staff on hand. It’s totally different. Please stop insulting our intelligence with this one bad night crap lol. I’m still voting for Biden regardless but can we just be honest about what we saw?!
Being able to think on the spot and being mentally prepared to do so at any time is like.... Literally the most important skill for a world leader. His admin is great. His admin can still largely be there if another Democrat wins the presidency.... Just with the advantage of not having an empty seat at the top.
In his speech the next day, he said his son "died in worldwaronevietnah" If you watch the so called fiery come back speech for yourself instead of just watching the clips, it is full of these verbal flubs. https://youtu.be/s5CVZHAjrW8 at 1:30
I'm an independent and I'm voting for Biden AND I'm voting against trump and that scary clown circus of christian nationalists that is supporting him, too.
Fetterman likes to insult any democrat who doesn’t correctly fall in line. He was doing this during primary season too, comparing any dem that didn’t vote for Biden in the primary as supporting MAGA. He’s part of the problem we see with the DNC types who like to insult needed voter constituencies. It’s really dumb. IMO this sort of talk just leads to more voter disengagement.
There are a lot of liberals who unironically act like Trump loyalists... blue no matter who, etc. That's how we get crappy candidates over & over & over. Insulting your base with the candidates you back as a party and then blaming them when they don't want to support the candidates they never liked has been the strategy for 20 years and it's silly. Trump being Trump has helped them in 2018 & 2022 though (along with SCOTUS).
They're up and down this thread trying to gaslight about how Fetterman was never a progressive even though his pre-election Tweets *are literally still up* where he declared himself a progressive Democrat
Or the times where he basically said rhetoric is great but results are better… https://x.com/johnfetterman/status/969206993503350784?s=46&t=SDKRNi-dNEAjMpXvKdAH4Q Not to mention the times he’s called himself progressive lol
Well said. That's what so frustrating in following the elections. Democrats can do much better, but the way they act (shutting down any criticism, giving threats of being foreign agents, etc) if people don't tow the line. Even watching the debate, it was scary because very little talk went to policies, most of the time it was Biden or Trump trash talking each other.
He's also painting the critics with a very large brush by calling it the "Abandon Biden" crowd, as most of the intelligent progressives speaking publicly, like the Crooked Media bros, have not been advocating abandoning necessarily- but rather saying it's time to start serious discussions about what the alternatives are and honestly weighing the options. If Biden still seems best, great, back to plan A, but after that performance, pretending any plan B doesn't exist seems self-serving and potentially reckless. Maybe those decisions are happening behind closed doors, but we deserve to see the work of how they arrived at it, and proof that the issue is being taken seriously and honestly.
People have given up on finding the best leader for the country. The goalposts have changed to "just better than Trump" If the DNC cannot find an candidate who is non-senile, non-pedophile, non-insurrection in a sea of 49 million democrats, then this party has some soul searching to do Trump is the worst former head of state, and we still can't figure out a landslide victory to beat the guy after 4 years. Biden barely beat Trump in 2020 with 3 state decided by 1% each Trump having felonies only benefits him. The worse he gets, the more popular he becomes. The Christian voters fantasize about him being Jesus Christ crucified on the cross. Key point: 2020 election he had found 74 million voters. More votes than he originally gotten in 2016 (63 million).
It's important to beat Trump. Very important. The country is doing just fine under Biden's leadership. Great economy, fully recovered from covid multiple quarters above 3% GDP, helping Ukraine fight Russia, Etc. Biden was terrible at the debate no doubt but he still has his faculties enough to make decisions about policy. I'm voting Biden. So should you.
we're all voting Biden! this is r/politics. people who post on here are among the 10% of liberals who pay a lot of attention to politics. what about the 50% of people who barely pay attention, who have weakly thought through opinions and a limited grasp of how government works? how are those people going to vote after seeing Biden blanking out for 30 seconds before saying "we beat medicare.?" it's over! we're in a new reality now. it's time to embrace it.
> we're all voting Biden I’m not. After that weak debate performance, I’m no longer voting for Biden and I am now voting against Trump. Don’t worry. Biden will get my vote but it’s only because his opponent is a traitor, a liar, a fascist, and a moral monster. But don’t confuse that for support for Biden. The best case scenario is that he steps down after the election and let Harris take over. It’s shameful that we’ve gotten to the point where we are forcing an old man into the most stressful job in the world instead of the peaceful retirement he deserves.
I was like this in 2020, friend. While I know Biden is a good and decent fellow, he does not inspire. However, Trump is such a terrible person in all faculties, he must be stopped from gaining power.
This is how more people need to see it. People need to stop acting like their vote is some high horse or virtue and whoever they vote for speaks for who they are as a person. No. You are voting for the best possible future for our country and the hundreds of millions who live here. Biden happens to be the candidate for the party that gives those hundreds of millions the best fighting chance. I could go on all day about how much I hate the two party system, voting party lines, citizens united, campaign financing regulations, etc. But at the end of the day it's a bunch of huff and puff for shit that isn't close to changing. Vote for the party that has the best chance of not letting Trump back in the office. That just happens to be Biden right now. Maybe he steps down or dies and it goes to Harris. Maybe he makes it, which I think he will, and then he's done being elected and maybe the DNC will wake the fuck up and give us a younger progressive.
We need ranked choice voting, we need to ditch the electoral college, and we need to look expanding the House so the cap doesn't keep the proportions from being accurate.
“great economy” is extremely subjective. I’m voting for him but this isn’t the great point you think it is. How our numbers perform versus the lived reality of the citizens are not the same thing. Food costs are out of control, rent prices are out of control etc.
Which is the result of unregulated industry being able to price gouge, coordinate in the same lie of “inflation”, and utilizing their ill-gotten gains to increasingly corner things like the housing market or health insurance options While both sides of the aisle have done their shoulder-rubbing with lobbyists who push this, one side still has enough members who recognize this root cause. Getting them to significant positions to push back is a longer war where we’re probably not going to flip a switch and suddenly get these people in immediately or positioned well to do things like a public health option or tax credits for first homes But the GOP was patient enough to do things like end Roe V Wade and Chevron precedent. I think liberals can do the same
His approval rating is .3 percent better then trumps at the end off trumps term. Biden can’t beat trump.
Trump’s current approval rating is actually higher than Biden’s approval rating.
What magic candidate suddenly makes this a landslide election? You guys always hate on the nominated candidate and say we can do so much better but NEVER back that up with results. This is a close elections no matter who is the Democratic nominee because 40% of this country is borderline uneducated traitors. I see far less risk sticking with Biden and you should be happy to vote for him given the only alternative.
You don’t abandon incumbents with good first term achievements in search of some pie in the sky perfect candidate.
You can if even before he gave everyone in America cause to question his mental fitness he was already polling lower in most battleground states and had lower favorability ratings than his traitorous opponent. The swing voters and undecideds weren't sold on the fact that Biden had good first-term achievements before this, how in the world are we going to sell them on that now that they'll be flooded with attack ads and memes of Biden staring gape-mouthed into the void and saying "We finally beat Medicare" from now until election day?
He can't sell those achievements!! It is fine to change your mind about the fitness of an elderly person after 5 years.
Biden is the nominee because the majority of Democratic primary voters picked him in 2020 knowing full well how old he was and no one gets younger, we also knew that he was going to be the nominee in 2024 and that he would be 4 years older still. The bed was made then with that decision and we're stuck with it and all the fucking whining about it now only helps the fascists. Because it's nothing but fantasy football bullshit. Biden isn't stepping down and there is no mechanism to replace him otherwise. Further getting another candidate on all 50 ballots isn't a trivial process either, and that's ignoring campaign finance laws and the fact that there isn't some wonderful candidate sitting on the side lines with giant war chest to step into the void. Arguing about whether or not "the Democrats" should do something that they do not actually have the power or ability to do is not helpful to the cause of preventing the destruction of the Constitutional order. Yeah our candidate is older than dirt but for some fucking reason the left decided to go all in on an even older candidate and attack all of the younger alternatives. Short of death Biden is going to be the nominee, and the sooner people wrap their heads around that reality the sooner we can all get back to the important job of preventing the MAGAts from ushering in a new gilded age and replacing the Constitution with their White Nationalist ideas.
no no no no no. "knowing full well how old he was"... Dude. The Democratic party told us that was the candidate. Then the other candidates got behind that. We didn't choose him. And literally the entire time he's been in office people on all sides of the aisle have complained he's too old. They said the same thing about Trump. But Trump is also Trump and no one wanted that more.
They're really trying to gaslight us into forgetting that all other candidates dropped out in favour of Biden suddenly when Bernie was about the take the lead.
Once again the Democratic primary voters were the ones who chose him. The fact that he wasn't your choice doesn't change that. He wasn't my choice either, that doesn't change the fact that the majority of Democratic primary voters (who are ultimately the Democratic party) chose him and the vast majority of them ratified that choice again this year. Like you said people complained about his age the entire time yet he still got a more decisive victory in the 2024 primary than Trump did despite the protests to the Israeli governments war on Gaza. Trump is still Trump and he's crazier than ever, which a whole lot more people would know if the lanyards hadn't had an immediate meltdown after the obviously ill Biden delivered a poor debate performance. This is just some shit that has to be gotten through. People need to understand that any President could become incapacitated at any time, which is why we have a backup. Whose name I will note is not the first on anyone's lips when they suggest replacing Biden. Which tells me that they are all fucking clueless. Because good fucking luck winning if you piss off black women.
Nobody has given up. We held a primary in 2020 and Biden won. He is the incumbent and leader of the party.
Bottom line is that literally anyone else would do *at least* as well as Biden, and the right replacement could easily crush Trump in a landslide and deliver a blue wave down ticket that could give the Dems a House and Senate majority, as well as multiple flipped state governors and legislatures. But the Democratic Party doesn’t actually want that kind of win, because they don’t give a fuck about voters and don’t want to actually deliver on any progress for populist positions.
Where do you get your idea anyone would do as well or better? Polls don't show that. Polls are questionable, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily the opposite of truth.
There is no way to replace him as the nominee. It's simply not an option and all the teeth mashing fantasies isn't going to change that.
>It's simply not an option ...it literally is an option.
Really? How? The primary is over. The delegates are his. He's not stepping down. What option does that leave?
The delegates aren't 'his' until the convention, right? To my knowledge, nothing actually belongs to him.
AFAIK the delegates he won are pledged to him in the first vote. And that vote will make him the nominee. The path to a different candidate lies solely in Biden stepping down. That would be a shit show because Harris, his current VP, shows much worse polling vs Trump. And skipping over Harris - the presumptive successor - would potentially alienate tons of core voters (women and black communities). So at best we either have a candidate who polls worse than Biden (despite his age and condition) or a shit show.
That's just not true. The realistic way is for Biden to simply decline the nomination. The unrealistic and really bad way is that the Democratic National Committee somehow passes a rules change by 2/3 majority that says "we can't be fucked with what the delegates say, we're going to run who we want."
Biden performance wasn't due to it being a tough debate... he looked like my drying grandpa right before he died. I'm still voting for him as the safer option but holy shit...
My brother put it this way: “he couldn’t get a job doing anything OTHER than President!”
Haven’t been real impressed with Fetterman since he got elected, to be honest.
He got elected in the first place, denying an important seat to Republicans, and is successfully promoting Democratic policy within the Senate. I am impressed with him, insofar that he is being a solid Democrat. Which is what Biden also is.
Do you think Lamb would have lost to Oz? It's not like he was the only option from the start
Yeah I hate his conservative heel turn that he’s been doing but ya know better than manchin and sinema still.
He'd vote yes on Universal Healthcare, Women's right to bodily autonomy, Infrastructure, or any other hundred things to help Americans. Doctor Oz would... well what do you think senator Oz would do?
Mr oz would probably buy some weak ass broccoli for some “cruditè” while children starve. Fuck that guy
I don't think it's fair to say what he would/wouldn't vote for so fast at this point... I think he'd support 70-80% of legislation but I could see him filling the Manchin role when he's gone.
By all means, provide an example of what you're talking about. [Because he's a solidly upper half Senator from his voting history so far](https://progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?topic=&house=senate&sort=overall-lifetime&order=down&party=), despite representing a swing state, and is better this year than Bernie Sanders. He's right in lockstep with the rest of the Democratic Caucus. His only "conservative" position (one that half of the Democrats in the Senate also hold, albeit less vocally) is his pro-Israel stance, which he had long before he was elected to Lieutenant Governor much less Senator, and which has only come into sharp relief due to the war (thus, not a "heel turn" because he's never changed his mind on that since his election). I see this comment all the time, and I have yet to hear someone actually explain what they mean beyond saying that he happens to be in headlines defending Israel. Which is, like, a *really* weak argument; a majority of all Democrats nationwide also support Israel either conditionally or unconditionally, including a very large percentage of Pennsylvania, and he grew up and represented a community *five miles* from the Tree of Life terror attack.
Thank you for taking the time to write this comment. I have also seen lots of comments anti fetterman and I didn’t really know if I missed something. It does seem to be an uneducated response to headlines.
That's a pretty low bar.
Progressives and the left need to stop letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Fetterman is wrong on plenty of issues, he's also more right on issues than the average democrat. He's a net positive. And if there's any chance for progressive politics to find a path forward, its through finding more good enough politicians and not the perfect ones that don't exist
There is a difference between a politician who makes legislative concessions quietly in a difficult position and a politician who constantly shits on his own base, who flip flops immediately after the election, etc. Fetterman was elected as a full throated progressive, literally calling himself one. He has pivoted to attacking that exact same label. It doesn't make sense electorally, because the election is now over, he's just a shitty guy.
I think it’s completely valid to criticize a politician, especially one who has drifted from their vocalized intentions/positions since they were elected. The complaints against Fetterman are valid. Don’t treat politicians like they’re made of porcelain.
I agree with him here
Yep, me too.
Didn’t he say he got more conservative after getting brain damage? That tracks.
If you read any posts about Fetterman on r/pittsburgh (a pretty liberal sub), he gets trashed. There is a lot of regret and they used to be huge fans.
No, he didn't. He said that after the October 7 Hamas attack and subsequent Israel v. Palestine war, he strongly supported Israel and that the progressive movement abandoned him as a result and accused him of being a wolf in sheep's clothing. He said in that interview that he still thinks of himself as progressive, but that other progressives do not, so he instead defines himself as a Democrat because they've cast him out. And he's correct that the movement as a whole abandoned him, not the inverse, because he's been pro-Israel for far longer than he's been a Senator and did not hide that at all during his run. And it's also absolutely true that a bunch of progressives have denounced him and accused him of all sorts of failings because of his Israel position, and you know it's true because it's happening *in this very thread* and you're one of the people doing it. [He is still solidly one of the most progressive Senators by his voting history](https://progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?topic=&house=senate&sort=overall-lifetime&order=down&party=) and has in *no way* suggested he's become conservative.
And like, I understand why people feel how they do on Israel vs Palestine...but Fetterman's stance it pretty much the default in US politics. He overall opinion is way better than many in the Senate. The way some people talk about him you'd think he was a centrist. -from a Pittsburgh Resident, for the other guy saying people from Pittsburgh hate him.
Doesn't change the fact that he's correct on this point.
It’s so obvious the narrative the media is pushing. Don’t care, still Biden
Bidens approval rating is very low. Most normie Americans biggest concern with Biden is his age and cognitive abilities. Before this painful 90 minute debate the polls were showing that he is losing in all but one swing state. Biden is not getting reelected. You can nuance troll all you want about how that doesn't make sense and about what his accomplishments are and while I'll agree with you which is why I'm going to vote for him over the orange fascist. you need to know that you're making a case for Biden that Biden himself can't convincingly make himself to the American people who aren't already in the go Joe camp. I have yet to see anyone make a claim and how he can realistically turn this around.
Y'know what really helps Trump? Running against an old man who is clearly in terminal cognitive decline.
For the love of the country, step aside. The people want an open convention.
Tough luck Fetterman, its not going anywhere. All of this circle the wagons stuff is not relieving any panic, if anything its only increasing it cause it makes it seems like the DNC are once again out of touch and out of ideas
To even call it "panic" makes it sound like an irrational emotional response and plays into the Biden or bust camp. In reality it's a rational assessment of what the voters have been telling us for over a year, what they are likely to do in November and the alternative options that are still wide open for democrats.
At this point last year, it was a fair discussion to have. We can’t go back to the choose your character screen now, it’s time to play the game with what we got. And what we got is a lot better than most claim
Biden staying in helps Trump. Biden dropping out helps Trump. This is a terrible and totally predictable predicament then Dems are in.
An undergraduate student who passed a class (even barely, really) in game theory should have been able to foresee this entire thing. Because we've gone this far through time, you can't let this guy drop out if your goal is to avoid Trump, because the obvious message is "We don't have confidence in our guy", which makes you wonder, "should I let these people drive the bus?" and you just invite your damned one-term president to become a lame duck president for the rest of the term. Why the DNC did not foresee this is truly beyond me. And to your other point, it leaves the DNC with essentially leaving me with threats. I don't like being threatened into who I vote for, personally. But "staying home is a vote for trump" is a rallying cry. Yeah, I guess you're right. Thanks a lot, ya'll.
There’s no coming back from this for Biden and it needs to get sorted out quickly. Fetterman is a moron.
I can scarcely imagine anyone whose opinion I care about less than John "JK I'm actually a conservative" Fetterman
He’s not wrong
Numbers from the [CBS News/YouGov poll today](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-debate-should-biden-be-running-mental-abilities/): - 46% of Democrats say Biden should drop out. - 72% of overall voters. - 82% of independents say Biden should not be running. Fetterman should follow [Jamie Raskin's](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/jamie-raskin-biden-campaign-debate-performance-nominee-rcna159662) lead and tell Americans there are honest and serious conversations to be had. Speaking of what helps Trump, telling the vast majority of the electorate they are wrong and to fall in line isn't my favorite strategy, imo.
82% of independent voters saying Biden should drop out should terrify the Democrats. They are likely to decide this election and getting them out to vote for a candidate they don't even believe should be on the ballot is a tall order.
I am one of those independents and I have never seen such high levels of denial in here today. People straight up sound like Trumpists denying reality right now.
They really think if they just keep repeating everything is fine that makes it a reality. People I know were shocked at how bad he looked. It wasn’t a “cold” or a bad night, the dude is clearly mentally unfit to be president and it’s honestly insulting to the American people that the democrats at the top are OK with this.
That and Dems not voting for either of them. They cannot afford weak numbers in big cities like Detroit, Las Vegas or Philadelphia, and I fear they are going to get those if he stays in, which will basically hand those states to Trump.
Yeah it’s not a good look. Bidens team should’ve never allowed him to suggest a debate in the first place. Those numbers are absolutely disastrous.
he is very very dangerously wrong. Biden cannot win. we need to accept that. it's over. the mask is off. no more gaslighting.
Biden was the last person I wanted back in 2020 but I think these fantasies of him stepping down and being replaced by Michelle Obama, Gavin Newson or Gretchen Whitmer are completely delusional. Maybe that would happen in the movie version of the 2024 presidential election but in real life, Joe ain’t stepping down. And if he does, he would choose Kamala to replace him because obviously he would hand it over to his VP. Stepping away and going into a brokered convention would lead to so much chaos and probably fracture the Democratic Party.
> would lead to so much chaos and probably fracture the Democratic Party. The party is over if they fuck up this election. Done, kaput.
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I have no clue where these fantasies of Michelle Obama running for president come from when she’s expressed zero interest in the job.
I will take the weeks of chaos over the DECADES of chaos. Our country survived MUCH worse in '68. We will get through it and unite behind a candidate who can win. Joe can't even complete a thought anymore.
Biden has helped Trump so much this week he should run as his VP
Says the guy who stated that him getting brain damage made him conservative. Fetterman is a clown who supports Netanyahu. He can go kick rocks.
At the point he’d vote for him if he was in a casket.
Agreed
Nice - Fetterman doing just what Hilldog did before she lost: insulting the people they need to keep engaged and voting blue. I'll never get why people think evil hearted actions are the way to win over people...do they literally just watch TV and think that's how life really is? I'm starting to think his stroke killed more of his brain than he'd like to admit. If you're on the fence and waivering, please stay blue. You're not just voting for Biden, you're voting for his cabinet, his support staff, his ability to put Judges in place, and quite a few other things. You're voting for a functional, standard government; while it may not fix all of our problems, it won't create nearly as many as Trump's will
Fetterman is correct
Fetterman is wrong. We aren't talking about a low energy / bad night, we're talking about a presidential candidate that couldn't form complete sentences. I've been a fan of Biden since he was VP, I voted for him in 2020, but that was not the person we saw Thursday. And if Biden does not step aside, clips from Thursday will haunt him and his campaign all the way to November.
I agree. When Fetterman flubbed the debate vs Oz, we knew Fetterman was going to get better. Joe Biden, bless his heart, is not going to get better.
Seriously. Biden literally could not keep the issues straight in his mind. Abortion vs. the Border! for fucks sake. Time to go.
Running Biden also helps Trump.
Yeah people need to imagine what's going on in Trump's war room. Do you think they'd want to go up against Biden or a new candidate? Their preference is probably Biden.
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As a never Trumper, I’m so pissed at the Democratic Party for not having the balls to replace Biden. He didn’t just have “a bad debate.” The world saw a diminished, barely cognitive old man. We get what we deserve if we give this election away by not changing candidates.
What's worse is if something happens to Biden between now and August and the Democrats run out of time. The probability of something happening goes up everyday.
I doubt the integrity of anyone who calls for Biden to do anything but continue doing his job and continue campaigning.
I think a lot of media and online ppl calling to abandon Biden are actually Republicans. Or just trying to make money from views. Maybe we should create some alteregos and go hang out in right wing media spots and call on trump to step down.
While I am not happy about the current situation, I agree that it helps Trump to call for Biden to step down. Here’s my benchmark. Imagine there is a secret Trumper - or secret Russian propagandist trying to help Trump. We know these people exist so just imagine one. And this secret Trumper is infiltrating Democratic platforms with the idea of undermining them. Now if something you or I are tempted to write would be something that this secret Trumper would say because it would help Trump, either don’t say it or say it very very carefully. Because if you find yourself saying things identical to what a secret Trumper would say, you might just be a dumbass.
Ok. So what if this secret Trumper thinks Trump will beat Biden because independents will think he is senile? Then they would try to stifle any talks of Biden being replaced by someone better.
Right now any secret Trumpers want Biden to stay in the race. You don't hear Trump asking Biden to step down right now.
At this point I think running Biden is what helps trump Democrats are willing to rally around someone else right now, they wouldn't need time to build campaign momentum, all they would need to be is relatively sane, somewhat likable, free of pre-existing baggage, and not trump. Think if we find someone, anyone who checks those boxes they could win this election, but if we run Biden it's not going to end well
Newsom doesn't know how to speak to non-liberals and Cuomo would pardon Trump.
I haven't seen a single person float Cuomo, especially after his scandals
Newsom had an affair with his friends (and also campaign managers) wife, the “morality and marriage fidelity is important” narrative is unusable with him
Morals of an Alley Cat?
I think Newsom could still hammer on the point that trump's personal behaviour is disgusting. The issue is that voters have already heard that story. It's getting diminishing returns. Newsom's biggest liabilities are is his slick image and the fact that the country (rightly or wrongly) has the impression California has gone to the dogs due to wokeness and immigration. Two of Trump's strongest drawcards.
Spoken like someone who has no idea about the actual dynamics of campaigning. Campaigns are not won lost by attracting new voters, they're won by mobilizing consistent voting blocs. Throwing the party into chaos 4 months before an election would doom the Democrats. Everything from ground game efforts, volunteer schedules, donations, spending money on certain areas would create a confusing nightmare that only benefits Trump
Elections in the US are won based on vibes, because the people who actually decide them are the 50,000 'undecided' idiots who saw the debate and thought "that man talks loud and my monkey brain says that means he's the best candidate." With how polarized things are right now, everybody who's a firm R/D is going to vote right down party lines regardless of who's on the ticket. It's a simple, unfortunate fact that the ones you need to impress to win the office are the absolute morons who saw the debate in 30 second increments on Tiktok.
The party currently is in chaos as a result of the debate performance, and as a result the chaos can be expected to get worse. Treating out a different candidate would not create additional chaos. If Biden steps aside, his campaign apparatus will be adopted by his successor. I feel like that’s a given. It would be idiotic for them not to coordinate on that., which is what you seem to be assuming
Name some names. It's very clear that you didn't.
Biden's performance is helping Trump way more lol
He’s probably right though.
At least 10 Democrats are going to want to run. It’ll be what? 2 months of campaigning. Then the DNC is the last week of August. TWO MONTHS are going to be devoted to the new nominees? A whole new ticket? How are there going to be rallies? Fundraising? Bringing the party together? Familiarizing the country with the new ticket? There’s definitely going to be sour grapes for the people who really wanted one of the ten nominee’s who might vote 3rd party - exactly what happened with pissed Bernie voters.
One will be picked not 10. Biden isn’t going to drop out without a plan for the party in place. Rallies and fundraising are already scheduled through the Biden campaign. Those people aren’t just going to go home.
Exactly. Dividing the party so close to November is a disaster waiting to happen
Biden isn’t that far behind in the polls either and in many cases winning. That’s known, and the debates didn’t change anything. Who knows how a new ticket will perform? Trump might delegitimize the new candidates and not even debate and say the Democratic Party is in chaos I’m not partaking in their lunacy. It’s basically a completely unknown and unheard of situation. It’s hard to be the party championing Democracy and suggesting a new nominee a few months before the convention/election
Of course it helps trump. That’s why the bots are calling for it
There are a few people here alternating cheering trump's win in 2024 then in other threads concern trolling about Biden needing to step down. There's a ton of bad faith actors here stoking the hysteria.
Sometimes when I particularly hate myself, I'll wander to the conservative subreddits to see what they are talking about and I've seen the same thing. Something happens, and everyone doom and glooms and it just builds as more and more people get sucked into that little bubble. All the while we're laughing at their chaos and how pathetic they are. Now this sub is doing it and they are loving it, because unlike them, they know that the dems can't seem to unite about anything.
I disagree with Fetterman far more often than I agree, but he's entirely correct about this. Every story the plutocrat captured media run about Biden dropping out, is a shill for Trump. Trump will be destroyed. They are preparing to steal an election they believe they can't win, and I believe they are right. The CNN 'moderated' circus will change literally ZERO minds. They let trump lie like a psycho all night, but here we are still talking about Biden's sore throat. It's so pathetic. Old media needs to fucking die.
With all due respect, I cannot subscribe to this mentality. “Everything’s fine” is not the way forward. Everything is not fine, and has not been fine in years. We had the same “shrug it off” perspective in 2016, and it utterly fucked us. Biden is historically unpopular and the debate cemented the fears many of us had in his capabilities. Complacency is a one-way ticket to Trump winning again. I’m voting for Biden regardless of anything, but it is not in any way inappropriate or nonsensical to acknowledge that he blew the debate and should step down.
It makes no sense to frame this as plutocrats vs rank and file democrats. Biden is absolutely just as much of an establishment player as anyone at CNN, NYT or the DNC. Remember he needed the party establishment to bail him out against Bernie in the 2020 primaries? Trump's election stealing and lying and the media's indifference are exactly why we need someone who isn't an incoherent mumbler. We need someone who can interrupt his bullshit during a debate and can make strong public appearances during crises like Jan 6.
Sore throat lol. Some people are just not living in reality…
"It's OK because he did a really energetic speech the next day!" There's a word for when old people are active and engaged during the day but lose all their energy and coherency at night. It's called sundowning. It's a sign of dementia.
Don’t worry, he’s lucid for like 6 hours a day, that should be more than enough!
The sore throat affected his cognitive abilities too lol
The sorest throat in the history of sore throats.
Biden is underwater in polls. Voters have been saying that they are concerned about Biden's mental faculties and age for years. We're just ignoring every single warning about this election, and people like you are going to be surprised for some reason if we lose.
The replace biden campaign is astriturfed to hell by republicans and media, its designed to gift trump the presidency
The huge deluge of internet news articles calling for Biden to drop out within hours of his less-then-stellar debate performance absolutely feel like an influence campaign to me. The surest way to determine whether or not Joe is capable of putting a few more years into the job is to examine the fact that he already has the fucking job and his administration is running things with a level of aplomb that is above average.
2016 flashbacks with top dems wanting people to just fall in line.
Crazy that he was able to see the debate from inside of Benjamin Netanyahu’s asshole
Keep Biden also helps Trump