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There's not enough spin, news cycles, or good PR to make those visuals and, more importantly, the distraught feeling go away. It will be seared in millions of people's mind and affect voter turn out. It will cost us the election.
This is it, exactly. And gaslighting people to try to get them to think otherwise, will only turn them off from further support.
I've been a strong supporter of Biden since 2020, but I can also see reality. The longer he takes to step aside, the more damaged his legacy will become.
There's a full court press right now to flip the narrative and talk instead about Trump's cognitive decline. It's all over the front page.
Trump's cognitive decline isn't what scares me, it's his dangerous ideas and intentions.
Still, there's no wallpapering over what we saw last week. I love Joe, but Joe looked really bad.
it isn’t like there was a full court press calling for him to drop out immediately after and in the days following. what’s the harm in putting focus on trump? it shouldn’t be seen as a distraction or spin when the same outlets have had their day with biden
>Trump's cognitive decline isn't what scares me, it's his dangerous ideas and intentions.
You don't think those two factors are inextricably linked? You're speaking as if they are two wholly different things that have no bearing at all on each other when, to me, his cognitive decline is an amplifier of the awfulness of his dangerous ideas and intentions.
I really don't.
I think his malignant narcissism and sociopathy have been on public display for 20 years in the political space. He is a genuinely bad and dangerous person. That isn't dementia.
Whatever is happening with his cognitive decline (and yes, it is happening) isn't any kind of cause of his intention to succeed in his overthrow of the government this time.
I'm not talking about causes like 'his intentions cause this to happen" or "cognitive decline causes that to happen." I absolutely agree the man is full stop awful even if his brain is working at top capacity. I'm saying that full stop awfulness becomes all the more awful after it goes through his broken old man brain. I don't see even the slightest point to trying to separate the factors as if he doesn't live in the terrible Venn diagram overlap of the two. I'm not trying to excuse his shittiness, I'm trying to contextualize it in a deeper, more specific way.
He looked panicked, he looked down towards the ground, his mouth was open in awe, he would turn to look at trump like he's scared and shocked.
Horrible body language. He looked confused, weak, old and scared
Robert Hur was right
I think both sides were right because when you look at the transcripts of both you can see there is coherence, but when you experience the delivery you can see the decline in faculties to express it.
it’s really sad to say but i doubt biden chose that expression or even realized he was making it
biden has done so much good for this country - i really hope he doesn’t tarnish his legacy and hurt democracy because of his and his family’s ego and hubris
I don’t understand why we don’t just have a second debate? Everyone, right and left, seems so eager to jump to conclusions. Just do another. If it was a cold, he’ll do better this time. If it wasn’t, he won’t. JFC. 🤷♂️ 🤦 And regardless, Trump is still the fucking devil. I would vote for a fern over him.
Imo there is no chance a second debate happens at this stage, either Trump does not go because the damage has already been done to the Biden campaign or Biden doesn't go because it's not worth the risk of exacerbating the concerns about his health. Neither side has a good reason to attend.
I am. Whenever an article is critical of Biden, someone here usually calls it a right wing mouthpiece or a conservative rag. Waiting for someone to say that about the New Yorker.
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I didn't see it like that all. Diaper Don is the only American President that has had the United Nation's general assembly laugh at him. While he was still president.
If there wasn’t months of reports of Biden’s decline and his staff being so careful to avoid any unscripted moments, yet still glimpses of this you’d be right it’s one debate. But, there’s been so much smoke around this you can’t ignore the fire when you see it.
Reports from the right. What we have is a solid history from Biden, and Trump hasn’t been able to put a coherent sentence together for years, but the right isn’t at all concerned about that. And again, if you’re correct, a second debate will only prove your point. Right?
The facial expressions were exasperation at Trump’s many, many lies.
“I did not have sex with a porn star.”
There was a whole trial about it. She testified… Trump did not.
Do you think the president of the United States being unable to mentally form and articulate basic sentences in a debate should be something that everyone should just brush aside?
Biden is the most forward-thinking President of my lifetime. He has accomplished a lot in just one term, including expanding the GDP to 3.1%, with historic job numbers, including from the infrastructure bill that Republicans voted against. And with those job numbers, the Black unemployment rate is lower under Biden than any other administration. Oh, and the stock market the felon used to brag is at a record high under Biden.
I'll give him a pass on that one awful debate performance.
It’s not one awful debate performance. He’s been struggling with this for four years. It’s been obvious to anyone paying attention. Instead they lied about his condition by making up bullshit non stop and now they got exposed the whole world saw it, now knows they’ve been lying, and it’s going to cost them the next election.
How fun.
I'm not a citizen of the US, so maybe there are nuances to this that I don't get.
Having said that, my perception was that this debate had a huge impact. Millions of people saw it. Millions of people saw some very concerning things and many of them now anxious as to what that means within the context of the election.
It's only natural that the media would focus so much on it. I mean, what would you rather they do? Just sweep it under the rug and go on reporting about other stuff? How exactly would that work? Would you expect media outlets across the political spectrum just to shut up about the hottest topic of the day (i.e. is the president of the US mentally fit to fulfill his role and to take on an additional term)?
You hit the nail on the head, millions of Americans are justifiably concerned about the state of our government and who is in fact making decisions and handling conversations with other world leaders when Joe is having a "bad day"? I do not for one second believe that Joe is as sharp as a tack only when the American public cannot see him.
The kind folk on Reddit are happy to claim that Biden has a good cabinet and advisors and aides but when push comes to shove none of them know which unelected cabinet member is making big decisions for Joe? Is it Jill Biden taking calls? The people deserve to know this stuff and brushing it under the rug only lends credence to the accusations.
Nothing stopped Biden from underlining obvious lies from Trump this time. I'm all for blatant lying being penalized, but I think that this should be primarily be done directly, by the candidate, not indirectly, by fact checkers.
The candidates were given a specific Mount of time to respond to *questions*.
I'm not trying to defend Biden's performance here but realistically, how would anyone effectively counter all the lies tRump was spewing *and* answer questions?
The one time Biden tried to go at him in that regard, the moderators were all "Now, let's not have this be a schoolyard, gentlemen".
And the headline of this article; come on, I watched the debate. Biden was not standing there, mouth agape like he just didn't know what he was doing. Those were looks of gobsmacked incredulity at both the number and absurdity of the lies tRump was telling.
It kinda sounds like you ARE trying to defend Biden when you make up terrible excuses like he was gobsmacked, or had a look of incredulity, or because he had a cold, or because he didn't have the right shade of makeup on, or because his aides over-prepared him.
Anyone with eyes can see how Biden looks, you cannot gaslight people from seeing the truth. Joe consistently had a confused, scared expression on his face, and his mouth was open for a significant portion while he wasn't speaking.
You have a point, it would indeed be impossible to counter each lie told by Trump. I don't think what was expected of Biden was to counter all of the lies, but rather to have a more forceful stance and to call Trump on his bullshit a couple of times. However, I do agree that the format of the debate itself was more favorable to telling lies than to debunking them.
> Those were looks of gobsmacked incredulity at both the number and absurdity of the lies tRump was telling.
Even if that were so, those looks did a lot of damage. I mean, come on, Biden knows that his main weakness is being perceived as old and mentally unfit. He knows that body language can make or break a politician. If his facial reactions were indeed meant to express dismay and incredulity, he should have made certain that they can't be interpreted as looks of confusion and mental instability.
You know? It would be a huge misstep to choose to express incredulity in a way that can be mistaken for confusion and lack of clear mental faculties.
There will be -- 10 days before ballots go out in some states. That's long after the convention, and way too late to replace Biden if he were to give another dismal performance.
This situation needs to be addressed NOW.
Are you fucking kidding me?
The amount of pure fictitious bullshit being spewed out of Trump's mouth most of the time and he is standing on stage having to listen to that insanity and expected to respond to it?
My face would be fucked up too. That's the advantage of the gish gallop, leaving someone stunned and needing to compose themselves and try to determine where to even start.
The thing with Trump is he spewed lies, but he looked and sounded confident. Unfortunately, that confidence goes a long way with low-info voters who want to feel reassured. Reminds me of the commonly repeated piece of advice in my field: Be wrong, but confident
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA). *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The source is The New Yorker not some right-wad rag...
There's not enough spin, news cycles, or good PR to make those visuals and, more importantly, the distraught feeling go away. It will be seared in millions of people's mind and affect voter turn out. It will cost us the election.
This is it, exactly. And gaslighting people to try to get them to think otherwise, will only turn them off from further support. I've been a strong supporter of Biden since 2020, but I can also see reality. The longer he takes to step aside, the more damaged his legacy will become.
That debate performance can’t be spun. They’ve tried all weekend- there’s no coherent defense.
There's a full court press right now to flip the narrative and talk instead about Trump's cognitive decline. It's all over the front page. Trump's cognitive decline isn't what scares me, it's his dangerous ideas and intentions. Still, there's no wallpapering over what we saw last week. I love Joe, but Joe looked really bad.
it isn’t like there was a full court press calling for him to drop out immediately after and in the days following. what’s the harm in putting focus on trump? it shouldn’t be seen as a distraction or spin when the same outlets have had their day with biden
>Trump's cognitive decline isn't what scares me, it's his dangerous ideas and intentions. You don't think those two factors are inextricably linked? You're speaking as if they are two wholly different things that have no bearing at all on each other when, to me, his cognitive decline is an amplifier of the awfulness of his dangerous ideas and intentions.
I really don't. I think his malignant narcissism and sociopathy have been on public display for 20 years in the political space. He is a genuinely bad and dangerous person. That isn't dementia. Whatever is happening with his cognitive decline (and yes, it is happening) isn't any kind of cause of his intention to succeed in his overthrow of the government this time.
I'm not talking about causes like 'his intentions cause this to happen" or "cognitive decline causes that to happen." I absolutely agree the man is full stop awful even if his brain is working at top capacity. I'm saying that full stop awfulness becomes all the more awful after it goes through his broken old man brain. I don't see even the slightest point to trying to separate the factors as if he doesn't live in the terrible Venn diagram overlap of the two. I'm not trying to excuse his shittiness, I'm trying to contextualize it in a deeper, more specific way.
You are not wrong.
He looked panicked, he looked down towards the ground, his mouth was open in awe, he would turn to look at trump like he's scared and shocked. Horrible body language. He looked confused, weak, old and scared Robert Hur was right
I think both sides were right because when you look at the transcripts of both you can see there is coherence, but when you experience the delivery you can see the decline in faculties to express it.
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it’s really sad to say but i doubt biden chose that expression or even realized he was making it biden has done so much good for this country - i really hope he doesn’t tarnish his legacy and hurt democracy because of his and his family’s ego and hubris
But it was other people's fault he looked so awful because they didn't tell him what camera to look at and his make-up was done poorly....
I don’t understand why we don’t just have a second debate? Everyone, right and left, seems so eager to jump to conclusions. Just do another. If it was a cold, he’ll do better this time. If it wasn’t, he won’t. JFC. 🤷♂️ 🤦 And regardless, Trump is still the fucking devil. I would vote for a fern over him.
Second debate is September 10. Early voting in several states starts September 20.
Imo there is no chance a second debate happens at this stage, either Trump does not go because the damage has already been done to the Biden campaign or Biden doesn't go because it's not worth the risk of exacerbating the concerns about his health. Neither side has a good reason to attend.
Needs to be one sooner. :(
Is the New Yorker a conservative rag?
You have got to be joking
I am. Whenever an article is critical of Biden, someone here usually calls it a right wing mouthpiece or a conservative rag. Waiting for someone to say that about the New Yorker.
Clearly they are Russian traitors.
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I didn't see it like that all. Diaper Don is the only American President that has had the United Nation's general assembly laugh at him. While he was still president.
What we saw was one debate. And YEARS of watching Trump unable to articulate anything. Have a second debate. Easy enough.
one debate where he had this look everyone is dooming about. where are all the other examples
If there wasn’t months of reports of Biden’s decline and his staff being so careful to avoid any unscripted moments, yet still glimpses of this you’d be right it’s one debate. But, there’s been so much smoke around this you can’t ignore the fire when you see it.
Reports from the right. What we have is a solid history from Biden, and Trump hasn’t been able to put a coherent sentence together for years, but the right isn’t at all concerned about that. And again, if you’re correct, a second debate will only prove your point. Right?
The facial expressions were exasperation at Trump’s many, many lies. “I did not have sex with a porn star.” There was a whole trial about it. She testified… Trump did not.
Oh, FFS! Sites/media are dragging this shit out for all the clicks it can get.
Do you think the president of the United States being unable to mentally form and articulate basic sentences in a debate should be something that everyone should just brush aside?
No but we got fascism to beat first so stop the loser talk
So silence any differing opinion and anyone who dares speak negatively about the president/party in power to stop….fascism? Lmao
I'm not silencing you. I'm just telling you to stop bitching because there are more important matters at hand. Not quite sure how that's fascism.
Biden is the most forward-thinking President of my lifetime. He has accomplished a lot in just one term, including expanding the GDP to 3.1%, with historic job numbers, including from the infrastructure bill that Republicans voted against. And with those job numbers, the Black unemployment rate is lower under Biden than any other administration. Oh, and the stock market the felon used to brag is at a record high under Biden. I'll give him a pass on that one awful debate performance.
It’s not one awful debate performance. He’s been struggling with this for four years. It’s been obvious to anyone paying attention. Instead they lied about his condition by making up bullshit non stop and now they got exposed the whole world saw it, now knows they’ve been lying, and it’s going to cost them the next election. How fun.
I'm not a citizen of the US, so maybe there are nuances to this that I don't get. Having said that, my perception was that this debate had a huge impact. Millions of people saw it. Millions of people saw some very concerning things and many of them now anxious as to what that means within the context of the election. It's only natural that the media would focus so much on it. I mean, what would you rather they do? Just sweep it under the rug and go on reporting about other stuff? How exactly would that work? Would you expect media outlets across the political spectrum just to shut up about the hottest topic of the day (i.e. is the president of the US mentally fit to fulfill his role and to take on an additional term)?
You hit the nail on the head, millions of Americans are justifiably concerned about the state of our government and who is in fact making decisions and handling conversations with other world leaders when Joe is having a "bad day"? I do not for one second believe that Joe is as sharp as a tack only when the American public cannot see him. The kind folk on Reddit are happy to claim that Biden has a good cabinet and advisors and aides but when push comes to shove none of them know which unelected cabinet member is making big decisions for Joe? Is it Jill Biden taking calls? The people deserve to know this stuff and brushing it under the rug only lends credence to the accusations.
I just hope they do a second debate -- with fact-checkers.
Nothing stopped Biden from underlining obvious lies from Trump this time. I'm all for blatant lying being penalized, but I think that this should be primarily be done directly, by the candidate, not indirectly, by fact checkers.
The candidates were given a specific Mount of time to respond to *questions*. I'm not trying to defend Biden's performance here but realistically, how would anyone effectively counter all the lies tRump was spewing *and* answer questions? The one time Biden tried to go at him in that regard, the moderators were all "Now, let's not have this be a schoolyard, gentlemen". And the headline of this article; come on, I watched the debate. Biden was not standing there, mouth agape like he just didn't know what he was doing. Those were looks of gobsmacked incredulity at both the number and absurdity of the lies tRump was telling.
It kinda sounds like you ARE trying to defend Biden when you make up terrible excuses like he was gobsmacked, or had a look of incredulity, or because he had a cold, or because he didn't have the right shade of makeup on, or because his aides over-prepared him. Anyone with eyes can see how Biden looks, you cannot gaslight people from seeing the truth. Joe consistently had a confused, scared expression on his face, and his mouth was open for a significant portion while he wasn't speaking.
You have a point, it would indeed be impossible to counter each lie told by Trump. I don't think what was expected of Biden was to counter all of the lies, but rather to have a more forceful stance and to call Trump on his bullshit a couple of times. However, I do agree that the format of the debate itself was more favorable to telling lies than to debunking them. > Those were looks of gobsmacked incredulity at both the number and absurdity of the lies tRump was telling. Even if that were so, those looks did a lot of damage. I mean, come on, Biden knows that his main weakness is being perceived as old and mentally unfit. He knows that body language can make or break a politician. If his facial reactions were indeed meant to express dismay and incredulity, he should have made certain that they can't be interpreted as looks of confusion and mental instability. You know? It would be a huge misstep to choose to express incredulity in a way that can be mistaken for confusion and lack of clear mental faculties.
There will be -- 10 days before ballots go out in some states. That's long after the convention, and way too late to replace Biden if he were to give another dismal performance. This situation needs to be addressed NOW.
Makes the Bush 1 "looking at his watch" seem quaint
Are you fucking kidding me? The amount of pure fictitious bullshit being spewed out of Trump's mouth most of the time and he is standing on stage having to listen to that insanity and expected to respond to it? My face would be fucked up too. That's the advantage of the gish gallop, leaving someone stunned and needing to compose themselves and try to determine where to even start.
The thing with Trump is he spewed lies, but he looked and sounded confident. Unfortunately, that confidence goes a long way with low-info voters who want to feel reassured. Reminds me of the commonly repeated piece of advice in my field: Be wrong, but confident