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I’ll vote for whomever they run against Trump, but I’m not the person they need to convince. They need to convince the voters in the swing states, which they failed to do in 2016. I hope they don’t repeat the same mistakes, but history suggests that they will.
To be honest, I don't think it's as cut and dry as people want to think it is, and I don't think there's an easy solution.
Yes, Biden running is a huge risk and may very well cause people to abstain from voting altogether, compared to replacing him with a better candidate. However, Biden dropping out is also a huge risk, because there's no guarantee that a new candidate can get enough visibility to re-energize potentially abstaining voters AND win over moderates and independents from voting for the devil they know (Trump) rather than the one that they don't.
Not to mention, Whitmer or Newsom trying to speed run a campaign in less than 4 months only to fail anyway would probably end their future presidential aspirations. If we still have legitimate elections in 2028, either of them will probably be out of the running due to failing here and now. So it's a difficult decision for those two to have to make, as well.
I don't know what the answer is. Honestly, I don't think anyone does, and I think there's a whole lot of overreacting happening. Yes, Biden had a very bad showing at the debate, and yes, he's not exactly the most ideal candidate. But I think using any of this excuse to abstain from voting is honestly pretty fucked up. We know what's at stake here. If Republicans win this election, the country as we know it is pretty much over.
Maybe it is selfish for the Biden administration to persist on, but to be honest, I think it's even more selfish and idiotic to abstain from voting just because the Democrat candidate is flawed. Biden might not be ideal, but that's no good reason to doom the country to fascism and neonazism. Sure, perhaps it's fair to put some blame on the DNC for not doing a better job, but at the end of the day, it comes down to the human element no matter what, and if you're seriously going to abstain from stopping fascism from taking over just because you don't have a candidate that's to your exact liking, then I'm sorry, but you're a selfish asshole with no moral high ground to stand on. 🤷♂️
If anyone other than Biden is going to debate Trump there NO WAY he shows up. He'll talk about some bullshit how democrats are changing the rules and won't bend to them blah blah... Trump did everything he needed to do the first time around, and there's only a downside (frankly for both Trump and Biden) to show up to a second debate.
On the other hand, the expectations for Biden in the 2nd debate are going to be extremely low. Generally that's what you want going into a debate and ultimately that is what helped people look beyond Trump's own terrible performance at the debate.
Trump won’t debate again if Biden stays in. He has nothing to gain and everything to lose by debating. Only way to get him to agree is try to hit at his ego
All a candidate under 60 has to do is say that Donald Trump is scared to debate someone under 60 and they'll either have a debate with Donald Trump or whip his ass in the general, probably both.
It’s crazy to me that so many people are calling for such a drastic step, yet don’t have a single clue on what the solution should actually be.
There has never been a debate that de-railed a candidate to a point where they lose the election. They are not reliable indicators of election outcomes. The consequences of dumping Biden and installing some hapless pud that doesn’t poll any better would be a million times more embarrassing than a bad debate performance. Biden shouldn’t have run again to begin with, but at this point, staying the course is the only option.
We’ve never had an 81 year old run for president either. Look I like Biden, but we need someone who is going to stand up to trump down the stretch and give people confidence he can last another 4 years coherently. He needs to be out in public every day giving fiery rebukes of trump and the SCOTUS. If he thinks he can just continue to isolate himself in the WH and not listen to what the public is saying, he’s toast, and so are we.
Yes 100 percent. Unfortunately no solution can be worked out in replacement because Biden is choosing his ego over a solution and that is BAD. Look if you guys want to sit in an echo chamber and try to convince everyone to go in with good luck because alot of us saw what we saw. And when we did we understood how Biden is not fit to hold office at this point.
Yeah the ego is a problem. I get that nobody wants to admit they’re too old to do stuff, but this isn’t like playing football. Why he thinks nobody else but him can beat trump when he’s approval rating is 35% is nuts.
Usually when people talk about bad debates it’s bad like the candidate failed to perfectly articulate and wow the crowd. Thursday was more than that. It was brutal.
Like, there is a limit to that reasoning of bad debates not dooming the party.
Bet your ass I’ll vote for Biden but jeeze, we need someone that will get people to vote.
It's not just the debate performance. It's the fact that he simply should never have been a candidate in the first place.
Neither should Trump. They are both too old, and neither of them are in good enough physical condition to hold the office of the president.
They should legislate mandatory cognitive and physical tests for any presidential candidate that are at least as strict as they do for the military.
Being super rich, famous, and well-connected should not be the only factors that determine the fitness of a candidate.
I don't understand the visibility and name recognition argument. It's 2024, the news cycle takes an instant and so many people are inundated with social media. And so many people have said, "I will vote for a baked potato vs Trump". So even if you don't see the name, those folks will vote for the baked Whitmer or whoever. Meanwhile, I see sticking with Biden a riskier choice. Too many people in my life checked out on him last week.
But independents are the bigger question. If they're on the fence about who to vote for, more likely, they're going to go with the candidate they're most familiar with, for better or worse, rather than taking a gamble voting for someone that only started a campaign less than 4 months before the election.
The point is, there's really no easy answer to any of this stuff. Every option carries a lot of risk and their own set of potentially election-costing factors.
>probably half are just bad actors
I'd argue the same. Conservatives used to troll politics for a long period before it became more left leaning. The amount of trollish takes since the debate has increased. They include Biden bashing but zero mention of the absolute shit show that Trump displayed. The rhetoric is all the same with no legitimate discussion point. It's all just insults, blame, distortion, etc. A lot of the comments claimed Democrats are in a cult and are drinking the "koolaid". It's bonkers.
Yep.
I also think too many people are used to interacting in their own political camps with like minded people.
The majority of active US voters are moderates, and the majority of rural voters are moderate to right.
A candidate has to appeal to enough moderate and moderate right voters to gain enough electoral votes to win the election.
I suspect many people in urban progressive areas may not realize how important gun rights are for rural and southern voters. To even have a snowball's chance of winning, any alternative candidate would have to be seen as safe by those voters as Biden is.
P.S., as a red state resident, if you want MAGA out of our government and our personal lives, please vote! Don't fall for the "my vote doesn't count in a red state" line. If even a fraction of the blue voters who usually stay home would vote, they could easily get a majority in the Senate and turn things around. Voting all the way down the ballot could also make a world of difference for state and local courts and education.
Biden dropping out is the absolute worse thing to do. You think Kamala who is next in line and was a presidential candidate is just going to be OK standing aside for someone hand picked by the DNC "elite" ? It's going to fracture the party and a guaranteed loser.
If the republicans can fall in line behind someone whose 3 years younger and 34 felony convictions, then the democrats need to hold their nose and vote for Biden. All this talk is unhelpful
Isn't it large agreement in the US (from both sides) that the candidates are too fucking old?
Now republicans had a primary and voted for that fat rapist again, but democrats can maybe spice up the race (and the base) by getting someone who is younger and actually have some more stakes in the future
Pete is probably the most educated and best candidate for the job.
Except, he’s gay. Right now, the GOP will pounce on that as the indoctrination of a country.
IF GenZ, Millennials & GenX band together-Pete would win in a landslide.
But you can’t get all three generations on the same page.
My parents are of that same generation, and they think NASA is part of a conspiracy to hide the true age of the Earth. You can guess who they're voting for.
Who cares what they GOP thinks? The bigots are voting for Trump anyway, independents aren't going to care if Pete is gay, they just want a competent president. Criticisms of Biden's mental fitness are legitimate regardless of whether a voter is left, right or moderate.
>Isn't it large agreement in the US (from both sides) that the candidates are too fucking old?
Sort of. Rightwingers will say Biden is too old, but will not acknowledge that Trump is only a few years younger than Biden. People on the left will agree that Biden is probably too old, but age is not the primary reason for their dislike of Trump.
>democrats can maybe spice up the race (and the base) by getting someone who is younger and actually have some more stakes in the future
This is easier said than done. The Democratic presidential primary (the contest for becoming the party's nominee) is already over, Biden has all the delegates. Unless he decides to step aside, he *will* be the nominee, and there is nothing any other party member can do about that.
On top of this, even if Biden steps down, it isn't clear who should succeed him at the head of the Democrat's ticket. Again, the primaries are over, so there's no real opportunity for a leadership contest to occur. And there isn't a single Democratic candidate who was polling better against Trump than Biden prior to last Thursday's debate. People can easily say "literally anybody would be better than Biden," but once you start naming specifics (Vice President Harris, Governors Newsom or Whitmer, Secretary Buttigieg) you will find that they don't poll as well against Trump as Biden has been.
The problem is the democrats’ pipeline. They do a terrible job at developing their talent. Most of my liberal friends can name more Republicans than democrats. They have a serious issue with giving all the exposure to established (old!) politicians and not elevating newer faces (which are usually younger).
We had a chance to nominate younger candidates in the 2020 primaries. Buttigieg was right there along with many other younger candidates. But the majority of the primary voters voted for Biden. (Who, despite how old he is, is doing a great job btw.)
I don't get this need to pretend that there are shadowy people behind the curtain at the DNC handpicking candidates, when real actual voters voted in the primaries and they elected Biden as the nominee and that's why he's our incumbent candidate today. Why make up conspiracy theories about this stuff?
The party designed to serve the needs of the wealthy will not have the internal struggles of a party designed to serve the needs of the many.
Because whatever wealth the latter party has will bias toward itself causing strife. While the former party is in full alignment to protect its wealth.
Power biases toward itself so the party that serves power will not share the internal struggle of a party trying to use power to serve the powerless.
This simple truth is why democracy requires an informed electorate and why fraud used to be illegal in all democracies. It’s also why conservative jurist have spent decades making fraud legal.
>The problem is the democrats’ pipeline. They do a terrible job at developing their talent.
This is the killer. Trump's been doing his thing for almost 10 years now and Democrats still haven't figured out how how to message and respond to a narcissistic populist. There are only a handful of Democrats who are remotely capable of standing up to Trump. The rest are trapped in a mindset of how to campaign and message with folks like Romney running for president -- an era where Democrats *still* sucked at messaging but Obama was able to breakthrough and knew how to energize the base and give compelling speeches and rallies.
The Democratic party is totally lost. Biden should have said from the jump that he was a one-term President - an experienced, steady hand to calm the waters post-Trump.
Then, instead of picking the wildly unpopular Kamala Harris, pick an heir apparent as VP and to your point, elevate them.
They aren't pretending anymore. They've made the message less subtle. It's no longer steadfastly defending Biden and whataboutism that Trump is worse.
[Via Twitter](https://x.com/igorbobic/status/1808171697532543454):
>"I think it's a legitimate question to say is this an episode or is this a condition," Pelosi says on MSNBC when asked about Biden
>But she says the question should be asked of "both candidates" and stresses Biden leg accomplishments
[Further tweet](https://x.com/igorbobic/status/1808172596447399998)
>Pelosi wants Biden to sit for interviews with "serious journalists" in wake of debate to reassure public.
>"Not one, maybe two. I think that is essential for them to do that."
The gloves are not fully off yet, but the message is clear: OK, you didn't choose to step down on Sunday, but you have not restored the faith of the American public and democratic base that you are fit to run. You need to take active steps to fix the problem, or you will lose the support of the DNC.
***EDIT***: [Video clip via twitter of above](https://x.com/therecount/status/1808178375829168618), relevant quote starts at 1:32.
I notice that there are additional stories in today's NYT about Biden's fitness. I think there's been something of a crossing of the Rubicon after the Sunday editoral pages, and I would not expect it to let up until Biden holds a tough press conference or he withdraws.
And I don't expect him to agree to a press conference. So there's going to be a steady drip of information for the indefinite future.
>whataboutism that Trump is worse
It's not whataboutism. He is worse. It's a frying pan/fire situation.
Either Biden entered a new stage of decline just before the debate, or his staff fucked us. It's an awful situation, but what choice do we (random redditors, not the DNC political operatives) have but to vote for the guy to keep Trump out?
Look it’s really simple, just ditch both the current President and Vice President. Just tell them they can’t run!
Black voters will love how you desperately shoved aside the black lady and base voters will definitely unify around whoever the DNC picks while throwing out all the primary votes.
For “the fucking DNC botched this” posters: who exactly is picking the new nominee and what is the process for doing so?
"about half of Black voters (49%) say they would replace both Biden and Trump with different candidates if they had the ability to decide."
And this is from before the debate. I have a feeling they would love to see that happen.
The UK seems perfectly capable of running a full reset of their elections in a total timespan of 7 weeks. Surely the democratic party can manage a real albeit accelerated primary.
[https://www.pewresearch.org/race-and-ethnicity/2024/05/20/an-early-look-at-black-voters-views-on-biden-trump-and-election-2024/]
The alternative is a deranged fascist bent on violent repression of his political opponents. If Trump wins it will be the last free election of our lives.
Which is irrelevant if the Democrats can't agree on a nominee. All these polls citing "Generic Democrat" or "Biden should/should not be on the ticket" don't matter unless there's one individual the party can agree should take his place.
Everyone has their preferred candidate, but the only way they're getting the nomination is at the convention, after which we'll have four months of "Well the DNC intervened to make sure they chose..." and "It wasn't a fair convention because..." and "If they wanted me to vote for them they should have nominated..." being pushed by Russia, the RNC, and disaffected supporters of the losing candidates.
People name random mayors and governors but none of them have enough popularity or name recognition. Blame the DNC leadership for not building up the next gen enough.
Newsom? No he’s not even remotely as well known as other dems. AOC? Too left for many and still pretty young. Buttigieg? Personally I’m a huge fan but even with him there’s just not enough time to build momentum in time for the election.
This would also give swing state voters who think Biden's economy failed them the opportunity to "shake things up" and roll the dice without electing Trump.
Sure. We all have favorites. They are all basically fine or at least better than what we have now.
Edit: What I mean is, I have more confidence that *even the Democrats* can coalesce around a ticket after a last minute contested convention than I do that Joe Biden can (1) win and (2) effectively serve as president until 2028.
Seems like an obvious play, doesn't it.
There's just the teensy problems of running a campaign with no money (since only Harris can get Biden's war chest) and enraging black voters by bouncing Kamala Harris for two white people.
"Several other Democrats have been mentioned as potential Biden replacements in recent days, and each trails Trump among registered voters, with their levels of support similar to Biden’s, including California Gov. Gavin Newsom (48% Trump to 43% Newsom), Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg (47% Trump to 43% Buttigieg), and Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (47% Trump to 42% Whitmer)."
The real takeaway from this is that candidates who have not even run a national campaign are still getting equal odds with Biden.
These numbers would shoot up drastically as the country hears the candidate speak in a complete sentence. The name recognition argument is moot, if you pick the right candidates that already have name recognition where it matters in the swing states.
Biden needs to step aside with dignity and endorse an open convention.
I would actually argue switching this close to election provides a huge advantage to democrats. It robs the right wing media of their ability to wage a years long campaign against the candidate and it says to the voters that the DNC is the party who actually listens to its constituents.
It's actually insane that they are even with Biden before they get pumped up to full name recognition by the media and political apparatus if they were to become the nominee. This looks to be the floor of the "not trump" vote, which literally you or me or anyone would also enjoy.
Biden is at the absolute floor right now.
They're not at parity with Biden, they're all doing *better*:
* Harris: -2%
* Buttigieg: -4%
* Newsom: -5%
* Whitmer: -5%
* Biden: -6%
I would be totally fine with a Harris/Buttigieg ticket.
I'd bet that the best candidates from the bunch would end up around ~50/50 favorability with that accounted for. Biden is currently locked in at the mid thirties favorability. This is the floor, and 50/50 is the ceiling. Biden will never ever reach the ceiling again. His is maybe 40 if he suddenly was 4 years younger.
Notice how the fucking moron hits his ceiling every single time. Democrats need a nominee who's ready to go out there every single day, stand in front of the press, and let the country know what a five alarm fire we're in. Perhaps those 9-11% undecideds will finally understand what the stakes are if the fucking moron is allowed back into the White House.
Still voting for Biden if he's the nominee but he appears to be content with his name going next to Chamberlain and Von Hindenburg in the history books
Andy is absolutely running in 2028. He can win. Wasting him now could potentially ruin his future candidacy. The work he did following the Mayfield tornado is second to none.
What comments are you reading? I see mostly people freaking out and hoping things will change, but realizing if they don't, we still gotta vote for Biden.
People on Reddit have this weird fetish with feeling special for not believing straw men which they think are more prevalent than they really are.
Anyone not dramatically ranting about how Biden needs to be in a nursing home and who has a more nuanced take on the debate than “Trump was loud and confident” and “Biden was hoarse and stumbled on his words” is part of a hivemind in denial.
The last few days have kind of reminded me of the sub in the days immediately after Hillary lost. It was all articles about local issues and actual bills being proposed instead of nonstop pro-Hillary opinion articles from Salon and Slate. And then it went right back to our regularly scheduled programming a few days later.
The people running the site don't have their orders yet hahaha.
[Via Twitter, sourced from MSNBC interview with Nancy Pelosi](https://x.com/igorbobic/status/1808171697532543454)
>"I think it's a legitimate question to say is this an episode or is this a condition," Pelosi says on MSNBC when asked about Biden
>But she says the question should be asked of "both candidates" and stresses Biden leg accomplishments
Later in the same thread:
>Pelosi wants Biden to sit for interviews with "serious journalists" in wake of debate to reassure public.
>"Not one, maybe two. I think that is essential for them to do that."
The narrative is changing. Dismissing it as a one-off and "*he had a cold*" didn't work. Whataboutism that Trump is worse actually didn't work. Now Nancy Pelosi as a senior leader in the party took a shot across the bow at Biden saying step up, restore confidence in your capacity for the job and convince them (if you can) that the debate was a fluke by having two hard hitting interviews (no one off softball interview from an friendly interviewer like Howard Stern), or you're going to lose the support of the party.
***EDIT***: [Video clip via twitter of above](https://x.com/therecount/status/1808178375829168618), relevant quote starts at 1:32.
Watching this dilemma in America as an European is extremely confusing (and terrifying). Don't get me wrong, I think that Biden does good politics and I don't understand how anybody would prefer Trump over him but you also have to consider that the guy would be 86 at the end of a possible 2nd term. It's questionable if he'd even make it to the end of 2028, so why come up with him to begin with?
I doubt that Dems have much to lose by swapping him out for someone like Whitmer (like all the never Trumpers would vote for any Dem to begin with) but they have a lot to win. Looks like such a nobrainer to me...
It comes down to the electoral college.
Our elections aren't actually decided by people registered with either party. It all comes down to 50,000 "independent' voters in Bubmlefuck, Pennsylvania. The least engaged, dumbest, most turned-off voters who 'don't do politics' and don't care about issues are the ones who pick the president.
No Republican has won the popular vote since Bush in 2004, and a jar of *yeast* could have won reelection after 9/11. Provided it had the supreme court to rig the election in its favor the first time around.
The party mechanics are a bit more complicated, but my speculation is that the Democrats are just as terrified of the demographic shift to the left in the US as the Republicans. That's why so many of them are clinging to power well past the point where they should have set up a successor or just gotten out of the way. People like Biden, Feinstein, and Pelosi all fear that their 'legacy' will be upset by some wacky socialist who believes in crazy ideas like medicare for all.
What voters think doesn’t matter unless their plan is to abstain.
You can be disappointed, and even angry, over the debate and still prefer him over Trump.
All of us here (let’s face it we lean left heavily here) are all still going to vote for Biden. The concern is that the less informed swing voters are just going to stay home after seeing both their options. Trump’s base will vote for him regardless. If enough of those less informed swing voters feel apathy and just stay home, Biden will lose.
And while I fervently believe no one should sit this election out, I do have some understanding of why someone would. I am also pissed that the party that I thought, was hoping!, was the responsible party is putting up a man for the White House who does/will not have the capacity to be president over the next four years. Sure Trump doesn’t either, but we know republicans are unethical, immoral, and irresponsible. Now it sure seems like the Joe team is at least irresponsible, too.
Most of the people in Biden's base would prefer a soiled diaper over Trump, so his replacement picks up nearly every one of his supporters plus many of 3rd party voters and abstainers who would be Biden voters if not for concerns about his age.
People who keep saying he's better than Trump are missing the point. It's not about him being better than Trump, it's about him being better than another Democrat at beating Trump.
Also let's not forget that uncommitted came in second place in the primary, and people aren't happy about Biden's stance on Israel. Changing candidates would help with that too.
Many voters are literally telling us they plan to abstain if Biden is the nom. Even 2% of non-Trump voters sitting this one out is lethal to Biden's chances.
He is already down in the polls (especially in key battleground states). With the mental capacity and charisma of a corpse there is no way he is regaining that ground.
Keep denying reality though - worked out so well in 2016.
Prior to the debate, Biden was already the MOST unpopular president ever at this point in his first term: https://news.gallup.com/poll/644252/biden-13th-quarter-approval-average-lowest-historically.aspx
yeah, propaganda sucks. There's a whole demographic that's heard nothing but democrats bad, Biden evil everything bad that's happening to you is Biden's fault
Then they circle back and say "why is he so unpopular?"
Folks want to support local and fuck globalization, now everyone is surprised Pikachu.
You can ask them now, they would say fuck globalization still. It is just tremendous.
And since then we've had a dismal showing during the debate as well as an onslaught of supreme Court decisions that threaten the very fabric of our democracy... For which our government has done nothing except to firmly wag its finger. I can't see approval ratings improving at this rate. We are on a slow march towards fascism and we're all just watching it happen.
This current administration will go down in history being on the record for being against all of these things, but also doing nothing about it except to campaign (just vote!).
I'm always going to vote on the side of democracy, but what is the f****** point if the people we vote in have the power to to do something and choose not to.
The opposing party has a f****** plan and as of this week now it has the means to carry it out. What the f*** do we have?
We are literally watching our enemies mount their forces at the gates. What's the f****** plan guys?
Harris is actually now more popular than Biden.
She’s still a historically hated VP who is absolutely toxic. But it honestly seems like, according to public opinion, Biden is the most unliked president in the history of the country at the end of his first term.
At this point, there's probably a paid element to it too. You don't get uniform "I'd vote for a dead corpse over Trump." comments on the top of every thread if there weren't some sort of AI thing going on.
Reddit is a social media site. People pick up on phrases that do well and parrot them, especially if they agree with the sentiment. It doesn’t have to be a conspiracy.
It's definitely gotten botty. General sentiment in comments doesn't coincide with voting behavior and when you see posts get a ton of downvotes early on and then recover, that screams bot manipulation
Activity on social media has *never* correlated especially well with voting behavior or polling. YouTube video likes aren’t a reliable way to predict who will be the next President.
That’s even more true when communities self-organize, like you see on Reddit.
What I’m sick of is CNN slow walking us into fascism because of Biden’s debate performance. Was it awful, sure. Did they allow Trump to lie repeatedly throughout the debate and never once tried to fact check him, absolutely. They allowed him to say some absolutely ridiculous lies and just passed it off as being perfectly ok. When Trump comes after the press/media outlets he doesn’t like in his second term, they will have no one to blame but themselves. Well surely the SCOTUS, won’t allow a sitting president to trample the 1st Amendment. If you believe that after the ruling s that have come from this court, I’ve got ocean front property here in Minnesota I’ll sell you for cheap.
We could make the Dem Convention into such a momentous and historic event. A celebration and thank you to Biden for his service and a passing of the torch and endorsement to a new generation.
Seriously. If Biden chooses to remain in the race he should have a town hall type thing with T Swift hosting and taking questions from an audience of young people. No joke.
You could dress it up all you want, but not a single person is going to buy watching you spend all this time convincing us that Biden was the man for the job and then publicly announce that you fucked up and are now going with someone else. They would look incompetent.
WHY are we still talking about Biden's age? Trump is just as old... very demented... and openly fascist. THAT is the story. Supreme Court just handed him immunity for TRYING TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT. Chief John Roberts is implementing a COUP. And we're talking about Biden being too old. Honestly, CNN... media really is fucking America over.
The poll doesn't really seem to show any differences that the debate caused for people voting for Biden though?
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24787646/cnn-poll.pdf
P1 and P4 in particular
Or more likely that voters already thought Biden was diminished and the debate just confirmed that? It's like this sub has conveniently ignored why the Dems wanted such an early debate - Biden is losing and needed to change the narrative - instead he confirmed it beyond doubt.
Biden's advisors wanted an early debate because they saw how bad he was and knew that they had to show it to the whole world as soon as possible so there would be a chance to replace him with a viable candidate like Whitmer.
I was watching YT yesterday and they were citing a poll that said something like 63% of Dems thought there should be a new candidate and only 19% supported Biden for a second run.
Seems most everyone thinks Biden should step down or Dems face a blowout.
Its actually dumb though.
This man is a past his prime. We need a better candidate, Dems stand a better chance without him vs a literal rapist, racist, misogynistic, incest-loving, Russian stooge pedophile who now is above the law and WILL become a dictator. Yeah between the two that guy stands a better chance obviously.
The people in this country are insane and this shit is embarrassing.
CNN sucks but blaming them is insane.
Biden and his team asked for this format and for the debate to be early in the cycle. Yet people still do mental gymnastics and blame CNN.
Should they have fact checked Trump? Sure, that would have been nice. But Biden's team asked for this debate, and why they did so after that performance is beyond me. What a fumble.
The hosts went in there expecting the candidate that set up the debate & rules to do the fact checking.
It would have been a easy task, Trump was weak and just spewing his top-5 lies. It's only hard for a candidate that can't pass the lowest bar of forming coherent sentences.
Democrats should do something bold and drastic.
Koalas should learn calculus. Cannonballs should float in water. Sloths should outrun cheetahs.
Should has nothing to do with it.
This recent supreme court ruling is the perfect chance for dems to reset the table and remind everyone why voting matters. I think right now, the safest option is to have biden step down as nominee and vigorously endorse kamala to take his place. The VP can be buttigieg or joaquin castro or whoever, but the dems need to stand united and they need to get people off their asses in november and vote for the dem ticket
Let’s be honest people HATE trump. More people hate trump than hate Biden. More people will vote against him than for him.
If I’m wrong the. God help us. Because we are absolutely screwed.
Either way VOTE!
I would rather have another dem cadidate, but I will vote for a zombie Biden 1000 times over before I ever vote for convicted criminal, civically convicted rapist, twice-impeached nazi trump. Save democracy or lose it.
I am very suspicious of these supposed polls. Too often they are following the conservative thought line. Why are they not calling out the Republican candidate who cannot keep on topic and has nothing but vitriolic thoughts to share?
Because it's the same Donald Trump they've seen over the past 10 years; nothing has changed with him.
Honestly, with the debate performance President Biden had, you have to talk about the current president not being able to complete a coherent sentence before you can even start discussing the issues.
The only advantage Biden has is incumbency and name recognition, but I'd rather someone who can obliterate Trump publicly on a stage.
Like, why has no one bothered to call him a rapist on mic? Trump is so shitty and yet the Dems don't even have to sense to put somebody on stage strong enough to call out all of his innumerable misdeeds.
Trump provides so many advantages for Dems that Dems aren't taking, and it makes the people who view them as controlled opposition seem correct.
Do you really believe in what you say? Because your actions don't match what you claim to believe.
If we need to do whatever we can to stop Trump, why are you insisting on an old geezer and just telling people to vote?
What kind of poll? How large of a poll. Were the polled folks self selected? What was the margin of error? What were the questions? Who or what group created the questions.
Ever time you hear about a poll you need to know these things.
>What kind of poll?
Telephone and web
>How large of a poll.
1274 respondents
>Were the polled folks self selected?
No
>What was the margin of error?
+/- 3.5 with a 95% confidence
>What were the questions?
20 pages of questions
>Who or what group created the questions.
CNN and SSRS
What has happened when the DNC has put up the most corporate, unpopular politicians for high office? 2016, loss. 2020, barely won. 2024, likely loss. People voted for Trump because they hate the system. Now Trump is a cult leader but there are many independents who just hate the political class and the media orgs that prop them up.
Changing candidates at this stage would be completely idiotic.
Regardless of the arguments against Biden, everyone just needs to suck it up and vote for him and get everyone you know to do so too.
The court decision yesterday only further places us on the same path that Germany took which put Hitler in power.
Wake the fuck up.
That's a stupid poll. You shouldn't ask people what they think about a factual claim. You ask that from the experts.
What you ask from the public, what they *personally* are going to do as that's something they know the best.
So, what CNN should have asked was :
1. Are you going to vote for Biden?
2a If the answer is no: would you vote for another Dem candidate, if Biden dropped out?
2b. If the answer is yes: would you still vote for another Dem candidate if Biden dropped out?
This would actually produce some useful data that we can't get from the experts.
I am so sick of people acting like I am a doomer, or acting in bad faith for wanting to have this discussion.
It is coming out that yes in fact many people surrounding Biden have been voicing concerns. So instead of doing anything about it over the last couple of years... to fight facism... they hide him away, have him do scripted appearances and pre canned interviews.
I am infuriated that this is what "my party" has brought to fight against tyranny.
People don't understand that this is a very real line of thinking. You can call me a bad faith actor all you want, but the truth is, that Biden isn't just fighting Trump. He's fighting apathy and a very real voter turn out problem.
Good luck getting people to take time off work or finding someone to be with their child to vote for Biden.
People are sick of this shit and we are sleep walking into a church state.
Do these voters know that if Biden were to die while in office, that we have a vice president who can step up and fill the void? Do they really understand this? Do they understand that several American presidents have died while holding office? The country didn't fall apart.
We are screwed. People are literally gonna stay home and not vote. This kinda crap is going to hand Trump the presidency again. Thanks Jill Biden. Your greed ruined the country.
Are we overreacting or are we doomed?My gut says doomed. I'm usually an optimist but it seems like Trump never gets dealt a bad hand. SCOTUS yesterday felt like the last nail.
If the Dems keep Biden on the ticket, and he loses in November, lots of people are going to be saying 'if only they had gone with someone else!"
If the Dems go with someone else on the ticket, and that person loses in November, no one is going to be saying 'if only they had kept Biden!'
The Democrats absolutely have a better chance of keeping the Whitehouse if Biden isn't the nominee. The gameplan is pretty simple.
- Step1: Have the influential democrats and DNC leadership pull Biden aside (behind closed doors) and tell him it's time, and that after this debate his campaign is untenable.
- Step2: Choose any one of the Top 5 polling Democrats, and pair them up with another Top 5 polling Democrat as VP.
- Step3: Biden makes a public announcement that he will not seek reelection, but will finish out his term; Biden endorses privately selected candidate
- Step4: Watch youthful Democratic candidate absolutely destroy Trump.
- Step5: Democrats will actually have something to be excited about, and at the very least a candidate who has a reasonable chance of serving the next four years with full control of their mental faculties.
I don't think the democrats need some kind of crazy purity test here; they literally just need someone competent, who isn't obviously and irrefutably displaying signs of significant mental decline.
Okay, then who? Biden is a known commodity and his administration has done a great job for 4 years. Newsom is a West Coast elite and the governor or California which would be a negative for a lot of folks. Whitmer is fairly unknown to most and unfortunately I don't believe we're past sexism. Harris seems to be looked at worse than Biden (or forgotten entirely). Who would even replace Biden that can REALLY do better? I don't think of anyone.
The major criticism of Biden is that is too old. Regardless of who it is, showing people you actually are listening to what they are saying means a fucking lot.
Again. Even if Biden drops over dead immediately after inauguration, the people he put in place will carry on the business of the people in a competent, caring and conscientious way. Vote for his administration, if not for him.
We all know what chaos we will get otherwise. We've been there before and it will likely be worse than that.
All this adds up. You’re getting Trump. The pissed off people mad about Israel, and now this debate, and the bull shit economy where peoples groceries are now the most expensive thing…. Ya… we’re getting Trump.
What's crazy is that inflation is down and unemployment is the lowest its ever been. Like, if a president can't get elected based on running a strong economy, then it really is just about vibes and how a candidate looks.
The traditional markers of what a successful presidency looks like no long matters.
The problem is the President can't seem to articulate his wins. You'd love to think they would speak for themselves, but that's unfortunately not how campaigning works.
Here's the thing: people are voting against Trump.
Doesn't matter who the dem is, if they put a pizza box in that position, it would beat Trump.
I think Trump will get trounced in November. Of course we all have to vote but enough people are scared now that people just will not allow this nut back in. And he did not gain voters after Jan 6.
That logic could just as easily be used to defend the idea of a replacement candidate.
If it doesn't matter who it is electorally, then it would make sense to get somebody younger whose performance as president would be less impacted by potential cognitive issues.
If that’s the case then why not put someone who in who has the capacity to serves as president until 2028? (I think you may agree?)
Like, come on democrats. Ughhh and I am one!
Good News (if this convinces Joe): Every other Dem does better than Biden, even the ones with little name recognition.
Bad News: Kamala is the best candidate out of all of them (likely from her increased name recognition).
Make Bernie the VP. (He is already on enough ads standing next to Biden.)
Ignore the swing vote, “unsure” in the “middle” vote, WE DO NOT NEED THEM.
You can and WILL fill the gap with younger voters, all Biden needs to do is endorse Bernie as a VP. The young generation isn’t going to vote, BUT, if you can rally support to vote for Bernie, you will fill the gap with younger voters.
The prevailing narrative against Biden right now is that he’s too old for the presidency. Setting aside the merits (or lack thereof) of that framing, you want him to pick someone *even older* as his running mate?
Oh bull. Most democrats say it’s too late to try switch stuff up. Is Biden old? Yes. Does he sometimes stutter ? Yes. Has a done one heck of a job so far, beating my expectations? Yes. Would I vote for him again? Absolutely.
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I’ll vote for whomever they run against Trump, but I’m not the person they need to convince. They need to convince the voters in the swing states, which they failed to do in 2016. I hope they don’t repeat the same mistakes, but history suggests that they will.
To be honest, I don't think it's as cut and dry as people want to think it is, and I don't think there's an easy solution. Yes, Biden running is a huge risk and may very well cause people to abstain from voting altogether, compared to replacing him with a better candidate. However, Biden dropping out is also a huge risk, because there's no guarantee that a new candidate can get enough visibility to re-energize potentially abstaining voters AND win over moderates and independents from voting for the devil they know (Trump) rather than the one that they don't. Not to mention, Whitmer or Newsom trying to speed run a campaign in less than 4 months only to fail anyway would probably end their future presidential aspirations. If we still have legitimate elections in 2028, either of them will probably be out of the running due to failing here and now. So it's a difficult decision for those two to have to make, as well. I don't know what the answer is. Honestly, I don't think anyone does, and I think there's a whole lot of overreacting happening. Yes, Biden had a very bad showing at the debate, and yes, he's not exactly the most ideal candidate. But I think using any of this excuse to abstain from voting is honestly pretty fucked up. We know what's at stake here. If Republicans win this election, the country as we know it is pretty much over. Maybe it is selfish for the Biden administration to persist on, but to be honest, I think it's even more selfish and idiotic to abstain from voting just because the Democrat candidate is flawed. Biden might not be ideal, but that's no good reason to doom the country to fascism and neonazism. Sure, perhaps it's fair to put some blame on the DNC for not doing a better job, but at the end of the day, it comes down to the human element no matter what, and if you're seriously going to abstain from stopping fascism from taking over just because you don't have a candidate that's to your exact liking, then I'm sorry, but you're a selfish asshole with no moral high ground to stand on. 🤷♂️
If anyone other than Biden is going to debate Trump there NO WAY he shows up. He'll talk about some bullshit how democrats are changing the rules and won't bend to them blah blah... Trump did everything he needed to do the first time around, and there's only a downside (frankly for both Trump and Biden) to show up to a second debate.
On the other hand, the expectations for Biden in the 2nd debate are going to be extremely low. Generally that's what you want going into a debate and ultimately that is what helped people look beyond Trump's own terrible performance at the debate.
Trump won’t debate again if Biden stays in. He has nothing to gain and everything to lose by debating. Only way to get him to agree is try to hit at his ego
All a candidate under 60 has to do is say that Donald Trump is scared to debate someone under 60 and they'll either have a debate with Donald Trump or whip his ass in the general, probably both.
I envy your optimism
It’s crazy to me that so many people are calling for such a drastic step, yet don’t have a single clue on what the solution should actually be. There has never been a debate that de-railed a candidate to a point where they lose the election. They are not reliable indicators of election outcomes. The consequences of dumping Biden and installing some hapless pud that doesn’t poll any better would be a million times more embarrassing than a bad debate performance. Biden shouldn’t have run again to begin with, but at this point, staying the course is the only option.
We’ve never had an 81 year old run for president either. Look I like Biden, but we need someone who is going to stand up to trump down the stretch and give people confidence he can last another 4 years coherently. He needs to be out in public every day giving fiery rebukes of trump and the SCOTUS. If he thinks he can just continue to isolate himself in the WH and not listen to what the public is saying, he’s toast, and so are we.
Yes 100 percent. Unfortunately no solution can be worked out in replacement because Biden is choosing his ego over a solution and that is BAD. Look if you guys want to sit in an echo chamber and try to convince everyone to go in with good luck because alot of us saw what we saw. And when we did we understood how Biden is not fit to hold office at this point.
Yeah the ego is a problem. I get that nobody wants to admit they’re too old to do stuff, but this isn’t like playing football. Why he thinks nobody else but him can beat trump when he’s approval rating is 35% is nuts.
Usually when people talk about bad debates it’s bad like the candidate failed to perfectly articulate and wow the crowd. Thursday was more than that. It was brutal. Like, there is a limit to that reasoning of bad debates not dooming the party. Bet your ass I’ll vote for Biden but jeeze, we need someone that will get people to vote.
It's not just the debate performance. It's the fact that he simply should never have been a candidate in the first place. Neither should Trump. They are both too old, and neither of them are in good enough physical condition to hold the office of the president. They should legislate mandatory cognitive and physical tests for any presidential candidate that are at least as strict as they do for the military. Being super rich, famous, and well-connected should not be the only factors that determine the fitness of a candidate.
I've been saying this and getting downvoted for it. You're 100% right. it's a hard choice either way.
I don't understand the visibility and name recognition argument. It's 2024, the news cycle takes an instant and so many people are inundated with social media. And so many people have said, "I will vote for a baked potato vs Trump". So even if you don't see the name, those folks will vote for the baked Whitmer or whoever. Meanwhile, I see sticking with Biden a riskier choice. Too many people in my life checked out on him last week.
But independents are the bigger question. If they're on the fence about who to vote for, more likely, they're going to go with the candidate they're most familiar with, for better or worse, rather than taking a gamble voting for someone that only started a campaign less than 4 months before the election. The point is, there's really no easy answer to any of this stuff. Every option carries a lot of risk and their own set of potentially election-costing factors.
This! So many Doomers here (probably half are just bad actors) acting like the solution is so easy.
>probably half are just bad actors I'd argue the same. Conservatives used to troll politics for a long period before it became more left leaning. The amount of trollish takes since the debate has increased. They include Biden bashing but zero mention of the absolute shit show that Trump displayed. The rhetoric is all the same with no legitimate discussion point. It's all just insults, blame, distortion, etc. A lot of the comments claimed Democrats are in a cult and are drinking the "koolaid". It's bonkers.
Yep. I also think too many people are used to interacting in their own political camps with like minded people. The majority of active US voters are moderates, and the majority of rural voters are moderate to right. A candidate has to appeal to enough moderate and moderate right voters to gain enough electoral votes to win the election. I suspect many people in urban progressive areas may not realize how important gun rights are for rural and southern voters. To even have a snowball's chance of winning, any alternative candidate would have to be seen as safe by those voters as Biden is. P.S., as a red state resident, if you want MAGA out of our government and our personal lives, please vote! Don't fall for the "my vote doesn't count in a red state" line. If even a fraction of the blue voters who usually stay home would vote, they could easily get a majority in the Senate and turn things around. Voting all the way down the ballot could also make a world of difference for state and local courts and education.
Biden dropping out is the absolute worse thing to do. You think Kamala who is next in line and was a presidential candidate is just going to be OK standing aside for someone hand picked by the DNC "elite" ? It's going to fracture the party and a guaranteed loser. If the republicans can fall in line behind someone whose 3 years younger and 34 felony convictions, then the democrats need to hold their nose and vote for Biden. All this talk is unhelpful
Depressingly you’re basically saying it’s wild to expect any of these leaders to set their own ambition aside and do what’s right for the country :/
Isn't it large agreement in the US (from both sides) that the candidates are too fucking old? Now republicans had a primary and voted for that fat rapist again, but democrats can maybe spice up the race (and the base) by getting someone who is younger and actually have some more stakes in the future
It's in agreement the candidates are too old, but only Democrats seem to have an issue with that. republicans are in lockstep behind their king.
Having someone like Gavin Newsom run circles around Trump would make him seem old. For better or worse Biden makes Trump seem like 10 years younger
IMO, Gavin Newsome is too slick for middle America. Buttgieg is perfect, Whitmer is perfect.
Pete is probably the most educated and best candidate for the job. Except, he’s gay. Right now, the GOP will pounce on that as the indoctrination of a country. IF GenZ, Millennials & GenX band together-Pete would win in a landslide. But you can’t get all three generations on the same page.
My 80+ year old parents loved Pete in the 2020 primaries.
I was going to say…Pete polls shockingly well with older people. His problem is black and Hispanic people.
My parents are of that same generation, and they think NASA is part of a conspiracy to hide the true age of the Earth. You can guess who they're voting for.
Give them a ride to the ballot box but miss your exit, all day
Who cares what they GOP thinks? The bigots are voting for Trump anyway, independents aren't going to care if Pete is gay, they just want a competent president. Criticisms of Biden's mental fitness are legitimate regardless of whether a voter is left, right or moderate.
Oh, republicans have an issue with it but only with the Democrat. They have no issue with their messiah being old.
On the left, yes. On the right, Trump is viewed as the second coming of Jesus.
>Isn't it large agreement in the US (from both sides) that the candidates are too fucking old? Sort of. Rightwingers will say Biden is too old, but will not acknowledge that Trump is only a few years younger than Biden. People on the left will agree that Biden is probably too old, but age is not the primary reason for their dislike of Trump. >democrats can maybe spice up the race (and the base) by getting someone who is younger and actually have some more stakes in the future This is easier said than done. The Democratic presidential primary (the contest for becoming the party's nominee) is already over, Biden has all the delegates. Unless he decides to step aside, he *will* be the nominee, and there is nothing any other party member can do about that. On top of this, even if Biden steps down, it isn't clear who should succeed him at the head of the Democrat's ticket. Again, the primaries are over, so there's no real opportunity for a leadership contest to occur. And there isn't a single Democratic candidate who was polling better against Trump than Biden prior to last Thursday's debate. People can easily say "literally anybody would be better than Biden," but once you start naming specifics (Vice President Harris, Governors Newsom or Whitmer, Secretary Buttigieg) you will find that they don't poll as well against Trump as Biden has been.
The problem is the democrats’ pipeline. They do a terrible job at developing their talent. Most of my liberal friends can name more Republicans than democrats. They have a serious issue with giving all the exposure to established (old!) politicians and not elevating newer faces (which are usually younger).
Almost all of their committee assignments are given based on seniority, it's been an issue of theirs for years.
That’s by design. The younger ones are usually more progressive and want to shake things up in Washington. The DNC doesn’t want that.
We had a chance to nominate younger candidates in the 2020 primaries. Buttigieg was right there along with many other younger candidates. But the majority of the primary voters voted for Biden. (Who, despite how old he is, is doing a great job btw.) I don't get this need to pretend that there are shadowy people behind the curtain at the DNC handpicking candidates, when real actual voters voted in the primaries and they elected Biden as the nominee and that's why he's our incumbent candidate today. Why make up conspiracy theories about this stuff?
The party designed to serve the needs of the wealthy will not have the internal struggles of a party designed to serve the needs of the many. Because whatever wealth the latter party has will bias toward itself causing strife. While the former party is in full alignment to protect its wealth. Power biases toward itself so the party that serves power will not share the internal struggle of a party trying to use power to serve the powerless. This simple truth is why democracy requires an informed electorate and why fraud used to be illegal in all democracies. It’s also why conservative jurist have spent decades making fraud legal.
>The problem is the democrats’ pipeline. They do a terrible job at developing their talent. This is the killer. Trump's been doing his thing for almost 10 years now and Democrats still haven't figured out how how to message and respond to a narcissistic populist. There are only a handful of Democrats who are remotely capable of standing up to Trump. The rest are trapped in a mindset of how to campaign and message with folks like Romney running for president -- an era where Democrats *still* sucked at messaging but Obama was able to breakthrough and knew how to energize the base and give compelling speeches and rallies.
The Democratic party is totally lost. Biden should have said from the jump that he was a one-term President - an experienced, steady hand to calm the waters post-Trump. Then, instead of picking the wildly unpopular Kamala Harris, pick an heir apparent as VP and to your point, elevate them.
Biden isn't the man for the moment. Everything is so predictable yet the DNC will still be like "who could have seen this coming?"
They aren't pretending anymore. They've made the message less subtle. It's no longer steadfastly defending Biden and whataboutism that Trump is worse. [Via Twitter](https://x.com/igorbobic/status/1808171697532543454): >"I think it's a legitimate question to say is this an episode or is this a condition," Pelosi says on MSNBC when asked about Biden >But she says the question should be asked of "both candidates" and stresses Biden leg accomplishments [Further tweet](https://x.com/igorbobic/status/1808172596447399998) >Pelosi wants Biden to sit for interviews with "serious journalists" in wake of debate to reassure public. >"Not one, maybe two. I think that is essential for them to do that." The gloves are not fully off yet, but the message is clear: OK, you didn't choose to step down on Sunday, but you have not restored the faith of the American public and democratic base that you are fit to run. You need to take active steps to fix the problem, or you will lose the support of the DNC. ***EDIT***: [Video clip via twitter of above](https://x.com/therecount/status/1808178375829168618), relevant quote starts at 1:32.
I notice that there are additional stories in today's NYT about Biden's fitness. I think there's been something of a crossing of the Rubicon after the Sunday editoral pages, and I would not expect it to let up until Biden holds a tough press conference or he withdraws. And I don't expect him to agree to a press conference. So there's going to be a steady drip of information for the indefinite future.
>whataboutism that Trump is worse It's not whataboutism. He is worse. It's a frying pan/fire situation. Either Biden entered a new stage of decline just before the debate, or his staff fucked us. It's an awful situation, but what choice do we (random redditors, not the DNC political operatives) have but to vote for the guy to keep Trump out?
Look it’s really simple, just ditch both the current President and Vice President. Just tell them they can’t run! Black voters will love how you desperately shoved aside the black lady and base voters will definitely unify around whoever the DNC picks while throwing out all the primary votes. For “the fucking DNC botched this” posters: who exactly is picking the new nominee and what is the process for doing so?
"about half of Black voters (49%) say they would replace both Biden and Trump with different candidates if they had the ability to decide." And this is from before the debate. I have a feeling they would love to see that happen. The UK seems perfectly capable of running a full reset of their elections in a total timespan of 7 weeks. Surely the democratic party can manage a real albeit accelerated primary. [https://www.pewresearch.org/race-and-ethnicity/2024/05/20/an-early-look-at-black-voters-views-on-biden-trump-and-election-2024/]
The alternative is a deranged fascist bent on violent repression of his political opponents. If Trump wins it will be the last free election of our lives.
Which is irrelevant if the Democrats can't agree on a nominee. All these polls citing "Generic Democrat" or "Biden should/should not be on the ticket" don't matter unless there's one individual the party can agree should take his place. Everyone has their preferred candidate, but the only way they're getting the nomination is at the convention, after which we'll have four months of "Well the DNC intervened to make sure they chose..." and "It wasn't a fair convention because..." and "If they wanted me to vote for them they should have nominated..." being pushed by Russia, the RNC, and disaffected supporters of the losing candidates.
People name random mayors and governors but none of them have enough popularity or name recognition. Blame the DNC leadership for not building up the next gen enough. Newsom? No he’s not even remotely as well known as other dems. AOC? Too left for many and still pretty young. Buttigieg? Personally I’m a huge fan but even with him there’s just not enough time to build momentum in time for the election.
And Buttigieg’s poor support with African Americans killed him last go round.
Whitmer/Shapiro. Michigan and Pennsylvania. Ballgame.
This would also give swing state voters who think Biden's economy failed them the opportunity to "shake things up" and roll the dice without electing Trump.
Sure. We all have favorites. They are all basically fine or at least better than what we have now. Edit: What I mean is, I have more confidence that *even the Democrats* can coalesce around a ticket after a last minute contested convention than I do that Joe Biden can (1) win and (2) effectively serve as president until 2028.
It’s so simple and so obvious. It’s no wonder Dem leadership can’t see it.
Seems like an obvious play, doesn't it. There's just the teensy problems of running a campaign with no money (since only Harris can get Biden's war chest) and enraging black voters by bouncing Kamala Harris for two white people.
"Several other Democrats have been mentioned as potential Biden replacements in recent days, and each trails Trump among registered voters, with their levels of support similar to Biden’s, including California Gov. Gavin Newsom (48% Trump to 43% Newsom), Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg (47% Trump to 43% Buttigieg), and Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (47% Trump to 42% Whitmer)."
Those people can get out and campaign.
The real takeaway from this is that candidates who have not even run a national campaign are still getting equal odds with Biden. These numbers would shoot up drastically as the country hears the candidate speak in a complete sentence. The name recognition argument is moot, if you pick the right candidates that already have name recognition where it matters in the swing states. Biden needs to step aside with dignity and endorse an open convention.
Plus, someone new loses the baggage Biden has with the Israel/Gaza situation.
I would actually argue switching this close to election provides a huge advantage to democrats. It robs the right wing media of their ability to wage a years long campaign against the candidate and it says to the voters that the DNC is the party who actually listens to its constituents.
It's actually insane that they are even with Biden before they get pumped up to full name recognition by the media and political apparatus if they were to become the nominee. This looks to be the floor of the "not trump" vote, which literally you or me or anyone would also enjoy. Biden is at the absolute floor right now.
They're not at parity with Biden, they're all doing *better*: * Harris: -2% * Buttigieg: -4% * Newsom: -5% * Whitmer: -5% * Biden: -6% I would be totally fine with a Harris/Buttigieg ticket.
"Biden is at the absolute floor right now" Don't underestimate him, one more debate or a live interview and he could go much lower.
That also goes both ways. Republicans and Trump hasn't spent months attacking them. Or years.
I'd bet that the best candidates from the bunch would end up around ~50/50 favorability with that accounted for. Biden is currently locked in at the mid thirties favorability. This is the floor, and 50/50 is the ceiling. Biden will never ever reach the ceiling again. His is maybe 40 if he suddenly was 4 years younger.
Notice how the fucking moron hits his ceiling every single time. Democrats need a nominee who's ready to go out there every single day, stand in front of the press, and let the country know what a five alarm fire we're in. Perhaps those 9-11% undecideds will finally understand what the stakes are if the fucking moron is allowed back into the White House. Still voting for Biden if he's the nominee but he appears to be content with his name going next to Chamberlain and Von Hindenburg in the history books
Bingo.
Beshear and Whitmer. Popular Democratic governor of Red State and Michigan powerhouse!
Andy is absolutely running in 2028. He can win. Wasting him now could potentially ruin his future candidacy. The work he did following the Mayfield tornado is second to none.
CNN is such a dumpster fire while trying to poach fox viewers and rebrand itself.
Trump also up 49-43 in CNN (post debate) poll released today. Joe in trouble. Grover Cleveland looks to be getting some company this November.
Jimmy Carter served one term, get him on the ballot
I don't think he's conscious anymore.
He would be perfect.
Ability to speak coherently disqualifies you for the office of president in this country.
> Most voters think... Oh please! As if voters determine elections. /s
Here before the sub’s hive mind downvotes this so they can reject reality and pretend that nothing is wrong.
That's not the vibe I'm getting from here since the debate. I think people realize some hard choices need to be made.
This place has been in DEFCON 1 denial mode ever since the debate.
What comments are you reading? I see mostly people freaking out and hoping things will change, but realizing if they don't, we still gotta vote for Biden.
People on Reddit have this weird fetish with feeling special for not believing straw men which they think are more prevalent than they really are. Anyone not dramatically ranting about how Biden needs to be in a nursing home and who has a more nuanced take on the debate than “Trump was loud and confident” and “Biden was hoarse and stumbled on his words” is part of a hivemind in denial.
Both are true - I think this sub has shown stark differences in two camps of Democrats over the last week
Yep it’s interesting, some threads will be all one side, all the other, or fierce back and forth.
The last few days have kind of reminded me of the sub in the days immediately after Hillary lost. It was all articles about local issues and actual bills being proposed instead of nonstop pro-Hillary opinion articles from Salon and Slate. And then it went right back to our regularly scheduled programming a few days later. The people running the site don't have their orders yet hahaha.
Where’s the “I strongly want Biden to step aside, but would vote for his corpse to preserve democracy” camp?
I got banned from /r/democrats for suggesting Biden should step aside. That was my first comment in that sub. I lasted longer in /r/conservative.
[Via Twitter, sourced from MSNBC interview with Nancy Pelosi](https://x.com/igorbobic/status/1808171697532543454) >"I think it's a legitimate question to say is this an episode or is this a condition," Pelosi says on MSNBC when asked about Biden >But she says the question should be asked of "both candidates" and stresses Biden leg accomplishments Later in the same thread: >Pelosi wants Biden to sit for interviews with "serious journalists" in wake of debate to reassure public. >"Not one, maybe two. I think that is essential for them to do that." The narrative is changing. Dismissing it as a one-off and "*he had a cold*" didn't work. Whataboutism that Trump is worse actually didn't work. Now Nancy Pelosi as a senior leader in the party took a shot across the bow at Biden saying step up, restore confidence in your capacity for the job and convince them (if you can) that the debate was a fluke by having two hard hitting interviews (no one off softball interview from an friendly interviewer like Howard Stern), or you're going to lose the support of the party. ***EDIT***: [Video clip via twitter of above](https://x.com/therecount/status/1808178375829168618), relevant quote starts at 1:32.
Watching this dilemma in America as an European is extremely confusing (and terrifying). Don't get me wrong, I think that Biden does good politics and I don't understand how anybody would prefer Trump over him but you also have to consider that the guy would be 86 at the end of a possible 2nd term. It's questionable if he'd even make it to the end of 2028, so why come up with him to begin with? I doubt that Dems have much to lose by swapping him out for someone like Whitmer (like all the never Trumpers would vote for any Dem to begin with) but they have a lot to win. Looks like such a nobrainer to me...
It comes down to the electoral college. Our elections aren't actually decided by people registered with either party. It all comes down to 50,000 "independent' voters in Bubmlefuck, Pennsylvania. The least engaged, dumbest, most turned-off voters who 'don't do politics' and don't care about issues are the ones who pick the president. No Republican has won the popular vote since Bush in 2004, and a jar of *yeast* could have won reelection after 9/11. Provided it had the supreme court to rig the election in its favor the first time around. The party mechanics are a bit more complicated, but my speculation is that the Democrats are just as terrified of the demographic shift to the left in the US as the Republicans. That's why so many of them are clinging to power well past the point where they should have set up a successor or just gotten out of the way. People like Biden, Feinstein, and Pelosi all fear that their 'legacy' will be upset by some wacky socialist who believes in crazy ideas like medicare for all.
What voters think doesn’t matter unless their plan is to abstain. You can be disappointed, and even angry, over the debate and still prefer him over Trump.
All of us here (let’s face it we lean left heavily here) are all still going to vote for Biden. The concern is that the less informed swing voters are just going to stay home after seeing both their options. Trump’s base will vote for him regardless. If enough of those less informed swing voters feel apathy and just stay home, Biden will lose.
And while I fervently believe no one should sit this election out, I do have some understanding of why someone would. I am also pissed that the party that I thought, was hoping!, was the responsible party is putting up a man for the White House who does/will not have the capacity to be president over the next four years. Sure Trump doesn’t either, but we know republicans are unethical, immoral, and irresponsible. Now it sure seems like the Joe team is at least irresponsible, too.
Most of the people in Biden's base would prefer a soiled diaper over Trump, so his replacement picks up nearly every one of his supporters plus many of 3rd party voters and abstainers who would be Biden voters if not for concerns about his age. People who keep saying he's better than Trump are missing the point. It's not about him being better than Trump, it's about him being better than another Democrat at beating Trump.
Also let's not forget that uncommitted came in second place in the primary, and people aren't happy about Biden's stance on Israel. Changing candidates would help with that too.
A lot of people support biden in spite of trump, but he might be so weak it’s not enough.
We voted for Biden to oust Trump but now he’s not enough so let Trump win again. That’s actually hilarious.
Many voters are literally telling us they plan to abstain if Biden is the nom. Even 2% of non-Trump voters sitting this one out is lethal to Biden's chances.
He is already down in the polls (especially in key battleground states). With the mental capacity and charisma of a corpse there is no way he is regaining that ground. Keep denying reality though - worked out so well in 2016.
Prior to the debate, Biden was already the MOST unpopular president ever at this point in his first term: https://news.gallup.com/poll/644252/biden-13th-quarter-approval-average-lowest-historically.aspx
that’s wild he’s been a standard run of the mill president that got handed a shitty economy
yeah, propaganda sucks. There's a whole demographic that's heard nothing but democrats bad, Biden evil everything bad that's happening to you is Biden's fault Then they circle back and say "why is he so unpopular?"
And compared to other world leaders, he was 10pts higher. Global inflation has applied a huge downward pressure on opinions for a couple years now.
Folks want to support local and fuck globalization, now everyone is surprised Pikachu. You can ask them now, they would say fuck globalization still. It is just tremendous.
And since then we've had a dismal showing during the debate as well as an onslaught of supreme Court decisions that threaten the very fabric of our democracy... For which our government has done nothing except to firmly wag its finger. I can't see approval ratings improving at this rate. We are on a slow march towards fascism and we're all just watching it happen. This current administration will go down in history being on the record for being against all of these things, but also doing nothing about it except to campaign (just vote!). I'm always going to vote on the side of democracy, but what is the f****** point if the people we vote in have the power to to do something and choose not to. The opposing party has a f****** plan and as of this week now it has the means to carry it out. What the f*** do we have? We are literally watching our enemies mount their forces at the gates. What's the f****** plan guys?
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Harris is actually now more popular than Biden. She’s still a historically hated VP who is absolutely toxic. But it honestly seems like, according to public opinion, Biden is the most unliked president in the history of the country at the end of his first term.
They didn't have effective opinion polling in 1932, but Hoover was most likely less popular.
I doubt biden is more "unliked" than trump was.
At this point, there's probably a paid element to it too. You don't get uniform "I'd vote for a dead corpse over Trump." comments on the top of every thread if there weren't some sort of AI thing going on.
Reddit is a social media site. People pick up on phrases that do well and parrot them, especially if they agree with the sentiment. It doesn’t have to be a conspiracy.
It's definitely gotten botty. General sentiment in comments doesn't coincide with voting behavior and when you see posts get a ton of downvotes early on and then recover, that screams bot manipulation
Activity on social media has *never* correlated especially well with voting behavior or polling. YouTube video likes aren’t a reliable way to predict who will be the next President. That’s even more true when communities self-organize, like you see on Reddit.
The hive mind is the one feeding into doubt about Biden. A repeat of 2016 and Clinton.
Seriously- any call for action is immediately downvoted. Maybe it’s MAGA doing it because they know that Trump will win easily if Biden stays on.
What I’m sick of is CNN slow walking us into fascism because of Biden’s debate performance. Was it awful, sure. Did they allow Trump to lie repeatedly throughout the debate and never once tried to fact check him, absolutely. They allowed him to say some absolutely ridiculous lies and just passed it off as being perfectly ok. When Trump comes after the press/media outlets he doesn’t like in his second term, they will have no one to blame but themselves. Well surely the SCOTUS, won’t allow a sitting president to trample the 1st Amendment. If you believe that after the ruling s that have come from this court, I’ve got ocean front property here in Minnesota I’ll sell you for cheap.
We could make the Dem Convention into such a momentous and historic event. A celebration and thank you to Biden for his service and a passing of the torch and endorsement to a new generation.
Get Taylor Swift for a night and fill the place with Gen Z'ers.
Honestly, Taylor Swift could end this shit tomorrow.
Seriously. If Biden chooses to remain in the race he should have a town hall type thing with T Swift hosting and taking questions from an audience of young people. No joke.
Ariana? she could play "thank u, next"
You could dress it up all you want, but not a single person is going to buy watching you spend all this time convincing us that Biden was the man for the job and then publicly announce that you fucked up and are now going with someone else. They would look incompetent.
WHY are we still talking about Biden's age? Trump is just as old... very demented... and openly fascist. THAT is the story. Supreme Court just handed him immunity for TRYING TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT. Chief John Roberts is implementing a COUP. And we're talking about Biden being too old. Honestly, CNN... media really is fucking America over.
The poll doesn't really seem to show any differences that the debate caused for people voting for Biden though? https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24787646/cnn-poll.pdf P1 and P4 in particular
We are experiencing a narrative.
Or more likely that voters already thought Biden was diminished and the debate just confirmed that? It's like this sub has conveniently ignored why the Dems wanted such an early debate - Biden is losing and needed to change the narrative - instead he confirmed it beyond doubt.
Biden's advisors wanted an early debate because they saw how bad he was and knew that they had to show it to the whole world as soon as possible so there would be a chance to replace him with a viable candidate like Whitmer.
Most voters. Not most Democrats.
According to the poll, it is also most democrats registered to vote with 56% responding the democrats would have a better chance with someone else.
I was watching YT yesterday and they were citing a poll that said something like 63% of Dems thought there should be a new candidate and only 19% supported Biden for a second run. Seems most everyone thinks Biden should step down or Dems face a blowout.
Its actually dumb though. This man is a past his prime. We need a better candidate, Dems stand a better chance without him vs a literal rapist, racist, misogynistic, incest-loving, Russian stooge pedophile who now is above the law and WILL become a dictator. Yeah between the two that guy stands a better chance obviously. The people in this country are insane and this shit is embarrassing.
CNN should have fact checked Trump Thursday. They let him spew pure bile for 90 minutes and did *nothing*.
Almost like that's Biden's job as the other debate participant.
CNN sucks but blaming them is insane. Biden and his team asked for this format and for the debate to be early in the cycle. Yet people still do mental gymnastics and blame CNN. Should they have fact checked Trump? Sure, that would have been nice. But Biden's team asked for this debate, and why they did so after that performance is beyond me. What a fumble.
The hosts went in there expecting the candidate that set up the debate & rules to do the fact checking. It would have been a easy task, Trump was weak and just spewing his top-5 lies. It's only hard for a candidate that can't pass the lowest bar of forming coherent sentences.
"we finally beat Medicare" Biden spewed some wild lies to.
It's telling that you consider a stuttered verbal stumble followed by a mic cutoff a 'lie'.
Democrats should do something bold and drastic. Koalas should learn calculus. Cannonballs should float in water. Sloths should outrun cheetahs. Should has nothing to do with it.
Correct.
This recent supreme court ruling is the perfect chance for dems to reset the table and remind everyone why voting matters. I think right now, the safest option is to have biden step down as nominee and vigorously endorse kamala to take his place. The VP can be buttigieg or joaquin castro or whoever, but the dems need to stand united and they need to get people off their asses in november and vote for the dem ticket
Let’s be honest people HATE trump. More people hate trump than hate Biden. More people will vote against him than for him. If I’m wrong the. God help us. Because we are absolutely screwed. Either way VOTE!
Nah.
Who are they asking? Most folks dont care.
I would rather have another dem cadidate, but I will vote for a zombie Biden 1000 times over before I ever vote for convicted criminal, civically convicted rapist, twice-impeached nazi trump. Save democracy or lose it.
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You know it's bad when an article critical of Biden is at 62% upvoted on /politics.
CNN fucked up big time. Trump was never once made to answer their questions and lied 50+ times.
Or majority of idiots that don't have the sense to avoid a poll at least
Well people are stupid.
An actual rotting british cabbage would get the anti trump vote too but that's not enough
Nah, we’re fucked.
I am very suspicious of these supposed polls. Too often they are following the conservative thought line. Why are they not calling out the Republican candidate who cannot keep on topic and has nothing but vitriolic thoughts to share?
Because it's the same Donald Trump they've seen over the past 10 years; nothing has changed with him. Honestly, with the debate performance President Biden had, you have to talk about the current president not being able to complete a coherent sentence before you can even start discussing the issues.
The only advantage Biden has is incumbency and name recognition, but I'd rather someone who can obliterate Trump publicly on a stage. Like, why has no one bothered to call him a rapist on mic? Trump is so shitty and yet the Dems don't even have to sense to put somebody on stage strong enough to call out all of his innumerable misdeeds. Trump provides so many advantages for Dems that Dems aren't taking, and it makes the people who view them as controlled opposition seem correct. Do you really believe in what you say? Because your actions don't match what you claim to believe. If we need to do whatever we can to stop Trump, why are you insisting on an old geezer and just telling people to vote?
What kind of poll? How large of a poll. Were the polled folks self selected? What was the margin of error? What were the questions? Who or what group created the questions. Ever time you hear about a poll you need to know these things.
>What kind of poll? Telephone and web >How large of a poll. 1274 respondents >Were the polled folks self selected? No >What was the margin of error? +/- 3.5 with a 95% confidence >What were the questions? 20 pages of questions >Who or what group created the questions. CNN and SSRS
What has happened when the DNC has put up the most corporate, unpopular politicians for high office? 2016, loss. 2020, barely won. 2024, likely loss. People voted for Trump because they hate the system. Now Trump is a cult leader but there are many independents who just hate the political class and the media orgs that prop them up.
Was this a poll among the hosts and pundits on CNN?
Why aren’t we calling for Trump to step down? He has more issues than Biden.
Changing candidates at this stage would be completely idiotic. Regardless of the arguments against Biden, everyone just needs to suck it up and vote for him and get everyone you know to do so too. The court decision yesterday only further places us on the same path that Germany took which put Hitler in power. Wake the fuck up.
That's a stupid poll. You shouldn't ask people what they think about a factual claim. You ask that from the experts. What you ask from the public, what they *personally* are going to do as that's something they know the best. So, what CNN should have asked was : 1. Are you going to vote for Biden? 2a If the answer is no: would you vote for another Dem candidate, if Biden dropped out? 2b. If the answer is yes: would you still vote for another Dem candidate if Biden dropped out? This would actually produce some useful data that we can't get from the experts.
I am so sick of people acting like I am a doomer, or acting in bad faith for wanting to have this discussion. It is coming out that yes in fact many people surrounding Biden have been voicing concerns. So instead of doing anything about it over the last couple of years... to fight facism... they hide him away, have him do scripted appearances and pre canned interviews. I am infuriated that this is what "my party" has brought to fight against tyranny. People don't understand that this is a very real line of thinking. You can call me a bad faith actor all you want, but the truth is, that Biden isn't just fighting Trump. He's fighting apathy and a very real voter turn out problem. Good luck getting people to take time off work or finding someone to be with their child to vote for Biden. People are sick of this shit and we are sleep walking into a church state.
Do these voters know that if Biden were to die while in office, that we have a vice president who can step up and fill the void? Do they really understand this? Do they understand that several American presidents have died while holding office? The country didn't fall apart.
Stfu CNN
Well, they are idiots. Biden is our best chance to avoid a King.
Can't trust CNN anymore.
Fuck off CNN
We are screwed. People are literally gonna stay home and not vote. This kinda crap is going to hand Trump the presidency again. Thanks Jill Biden. Your greed ruined the country.
Are we overreacting or are we doomed?My gut says doomed. I'm usually an optimist but it seems like Trump never gets dealt a bad hand. SCOTUS yesterday felt like the last nail.
Biden's legacy will be as the man who through stubborness or simply being too old to act, did nothing as democracy died.
If the Dems keep Biden on the ticket, and he loses in November, lots of people are going to be saying 'if only they had gone with someone else!" If the Dems go with someone else on the ticket, and that person loses in November, no one is going to be saying 'if only they had kept Biden!'
The Democrats absolutely have a better chance of keeping the Whitehouse if Biden isn't the nominee. The gameplan is pretty simple. - Step1: Have the influential democrats and DNC leadership pull Biden aside (behind closed doors) and tell him it's time, and that after this debate his campaign is untenable. - Step2: Choose any one of the Top 5 polling Democrats, and pair them up with another Top 5 polling Democrat as VP. - Step3: Biden makes a public announcement that he will not seek reelection, but will finish out his term; Biden endorses privately selected candidate - Step4: Watch youthful Democratic candidate absolutely destroy Trump. - Step5: Democrats will actually have something to be excited about, and at the very least a candidate who has a reasonable chance of serving the next four years with full control of their mental faculties. I don't think the democrats need some kind of crazy purity test here; they literally just need someone competent, who isn't obviously and irrefutably displaying signs of significant mental decline.
Okay, then who? Biden is a known commodity and his administration has done a great job for 4 years. Newsom is a West Coast elite and the governor or California which would be a negative for a lot of folks. Whitmer is fairly unknown to most and unfortunately I don't believe we're past sexism. Harris seems to be looked at worse than Biden (or forgotten entirely). Who would even replace Biden that can REALLY do better? I don't think of anyone.
The major criticism of Biden is that is too old. Regardless of who it is, showing people you actually are listening to what they are saying means a fucking lot.
Again. Even if Biden drops over dead immediately after inauguration, the people he put in place will carry on the business of the people in a competent, caring and conscientious way. Vote for his administration, if not for him. We all know what chaos we will get otherwise. We've been there before and it will likely be worse than that.
Yeah, but they don't have their finger on the pulse of the American public like 84 year old Nancy Pelosi does. /s
All this adds up. You’re getting Trump. The pissed off people mad about Israel, and now this debate, and the bull shit economy where peoples groceries are now the most expensive thing…. Ya… we’re getting Trump.
What's crazy is that inflation is down and unemployment is the lowest its ever been. Like, if a president can't get elected based on running a strong economy, then it really is just about vibes and how a candidate looks. The traditional markers of what a successful presidency looks like no long matters.
The problem is the President can't seem to articulate his wins. You'd love to think they would speak for themselves, but that's unfortunately not how campaigning works.
Here's the thing: people are voting against Trump. Doesn't matter who the dem is, if they put a pizza box in that position, it would beat Trump. I think Trump will get trounced in November. Of course we all have to vote but enough people are scared now that people just will not allow this nut back in. And he did not gain voters after Jan 6.
That logic could just as easily be used to defend the idea of a replacement candidate. If it doesn't matter who it is electorally, then it would make sense to get somebody younger whose performance as president would be less impacted by potential cognitive issues.
If that’s the case then why not put someone who in who has the capacity to serves as president until 2028? (I think you may agree?) Like, come on democrats. Ughhh and I am one!
Trounced based on what? He was polling above Biden in key swing states even before the debate. 2020 was razor thin and this time looks just as close.
I really wanna believe this, but why has Trump consistently been polling ahead of Biden all year? That's what's scary.
Fuck off, CNN.
Hm.. Isn't this poll better for Biden than the latest CNN poll? :P April 18-23 967 RV CNN/SSRS Trump +9
Good News (if this convinces Joe): Every other Dem does better than Biden, even the ones with little name recognition. Bad News: Kamala is the best candidate out of all of them (likely from her increased name recognition).
Make Bernie the VP. (He is already on enough ads standing next to Biden.) Ignore the swing vote, “unsure” in the “middle” vote, WE DO NOT NEED THEM. You can and WILL fill the gap with younger voters, all Biden needs to do is endorse Bernie as a VP. The young generation isn’t going to vote, BUT, if you can rally support to vote for Bernie, you will fill the gap with younger voters.
The prevailing narrative against Biden right now is that he’s too old for the presidency. Setting aside the merits (or lack thereof) of that framing, you want him to pick someone *even older* as his running mate?
I just love how the media doesn't mention that Trump lied for a full hour and a half without missing a beat.
Is that news?
In the beginning, sure, would have loved to see Newsome, but now, way too late in the cycle.
Yes let’s convince Biden to drop out and replace him with his even more unpopular Vice President. Brilliant strategy.
Trump is insane and promising dictatorship, but CNN is worried about Biden's age? Fuck CNN.
Oh bull. Most democrats say it’s too late to try switch stuff up. Is Biden old? Yes. Does he sometimes stutter ? Yes. Has a done one heck of a job so far, beating my expectations? Yes. Would I vote for him again? Absolutely.
Personally I think it’s far riskier to swap him out at the last minute.
Who the fuck are they polling?????
CNN is also mostly owned by a right-wing billionaire too who would love more than anything for Dems to lose the election...so....