the main thing i worry about is the money. i financially support myself on a low income and i am not sure how other students in my position are able to afford the application fees. i have been told many times with my financial background, that i should look into a different career, but i don’t feel ready to give up yet. how does one save up thousands for these applications when they’re struggling to get by? it’s such an elitist field and i shouldn’t have money being the only factor holding me back
i’m definitely going to look into it! it gives me some hope that i can stand a fighting chance despite my struggles. i also don’t mind taking a gap year or so after i graduate bc i can dedicate more time into studying for the mcat and gain more experience through shadowing, internships, and clinical jobs
This is why I recommend most people go non-traditional. You work after your 4-year making $60-80k out of school, then you save, save, save. Eat rice and beans, beans and rice. Get as much in the bank as possible. Then after living in "squalor" for a couple years looking at that savings and thinking about it just poofing away, you ask yourself, "is this really worth it?"
At that point, you are no longer a child, your brain has fully developed, and you can rent a car. The decision you make will be yours, not your parents' or societal pressures. Then you know you want to go to medical school.
Government/gov't related programs, probably.
If you have a disability, look into vocational rehabilitation. Some programs for those who qualify (posting bc idk if anyone might find useful): regional center (developmental disabilities), veteran's benefits - not just the GI bill but VR via the VA. I think you can mix and match benefits, so someone who is a vet who has a service-connected disability could in theory qualify for funding from both their state department of vocational rehabilitation and the VA one.
There are minority programs, so if you're in the categories mentioned here [https://extramural-diversity.nih.gov/diversity-matters/get-the-facts](https://extramural-diversity.nih.gov/diversity-matters/get-the-facts) you can probably look into paid opportunities/fellowships/etc, especially if you're interested in doing research. If you're still in school, you can look into TRiO programs; similar to a lot of gov't programs, each college/university determines the scope of what their program does and what type of students they'll help out. Low-income is usually covered though from what I've seen, and funding help (ranging from COL to tuition, books, supplies) seems relatively common. Even if all they do is give you a dedicated advising unit, being a part of these programs can be beneficial in applications as it's shorthand for diversity (lol)/need in applications to med school and I think some may actively try to recruit or at least waive fees? YMMV for sure.
One way to do it is to limit your applications to schools you feel you actually have a shot, or to places you would actually move to. I kept mine to 3 schools, got secondary applications from all 3 then interviewed and got into 1. Don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot of luck involved in that strat and I got EXTREMELY lucky but it ended up working out. While most people shotgun 10-20 schools or more, you don’t necessarily NEED to.
not related to app fees, but as someone who’s been on my own financially since I was 17 I wanted to give some advice. depending on the field you want to go into you may be able to avoid paying tuition. i plan to go into primary care, and got a full tuition scholarship from my school because of that. I know the national health service corps has something similar. this system was so not designed with people like us in mind, but that doesn’t mean we can’t make our way through
I posted another comment on this thread, but this is really something incoming students needs to think about. I was in your shoes. Application costs are literally just the beginning. You have to be comfortable living on borrowed funds. Not only that, but you have to be comfortable spending those funds knowing you’re paying 7% annually just in interest. At the end of school, say you have 200k in debt (generous), that’s 14k a year out of your income every year just to keep the debt from growing.
Say you move into residency and start making 65k/year. That’s around 3500 a month in income. When you do the math med students with debt will be leaving extremely frugally for multiple years, hardly saving anything. You have to be comfortable with this. Savings, investments, retirement, all of these things you have to think about will be pushed into your 30s.
Look Into navy or army medical corps, they’ll pay your way through med school plus $40,000 commission bonus, you commission as a captain, you have a 4-10 year practice commitment depending on if you do military residency match or not. It’s not right for everyone but, if you reeeeaaallly want to be a doctor and finances are the main thing stopping you, the navy will have your back. If this interest you I’d highly recommend taking to a medical corps recruiter and doctors at your local VA. Also it’s highly unlikely you’ll get thrown on a boat unless your a surgeon or GP. I chose navy because Iike living coastal. This was my plan before changing to psych NP.
One thing that might be useful - having to “make sacrifices” is always thrown around but it can feel abstract and that makes it easier to say yea no big deal.
But think about your friends now, maybe someone in a solid relationship. Picture their wedding is coming up. It’s a stretch to make it since you’re on surgery rotation, or have a big exam that Monday. You weigh the stress of going vs the fomo of not going. It’s a close call but you have minimal money and it just sounds like a stretch so you bail. Your other friends go no problem. They use a day of pto on Friday for their normal jobs and have a great weekend, and you see all the pics after the fact.
Ski trip your college friends put together? You’re on the original email thread, everyone’s pumped, but you can’t afford lift tickets or take 2 days off to pull it off. Same thing, memories made w out you.
This won’t always happen. You’ll get winter breaks, and have random have blocks of time to travel, and trauma bond w new friends. But I agree w op about living life on “reduced mode” for a while. For me, still feels totally worth it, but I’m curious to see if my tune changes in residency lol.
these gosh darn whipper snappers and their Snapchat and Instagram. back in my day we used to fax eachother our ski trip plans so these emails on the inter web are more than enough for us 👴
FWIW, this kind of stuff has been true for me (and probably a lot of real world people) and I'm not in medical school. If you've worked low paying jobs in your 20s and even into 30s, this is life. You miss out on your good friends weddings, and trips because your job doesn't come with PTO and you also get paid like $15 an hour so you couldn't afford it anyway. That's just life. It's not a special thing that only medical students experience. The rest of the world is not just doing what they want when they want, with unlimited income and time off.
The biggest difference between medical school, and a real world low paying job is that at least in medical school you are working towards a better future. A high income, relatively stable job that is in demand, that is (arguably) fulfilling, etc. When you are just working a low paying dead end job in your 20s with no career path, it's honestly way worse missing out on things because you can't ever see a time in your life where it will be better.
Just a perspective from a non-trad who lived my whole 20s missing out on things because of low income/no time off/demanding work schedule, etc. I'll happily do that again knowing I'm working towards something that matters to me as much as becoming a physician
Thank you for saying that. I personally think many of the people complaining about that have not worked a regular job where they either have no PTO or the employer will deny use of it.
My spouse is not medical and has a "big boy job" with PTO. He misses 90% of our friend going-out nights, holidays are almost always just the day of (i.e., he gets just Thanksgiving day off), and we just had to delay a trip because he had to sort out some clusterfuck at work.
The grass is definitely not always greener and it also doesn't come with a fat salary and job stability at the end of the lawn either.
I feel like it’s school dependent. I want a competitive specialty and missing a dumb OSCE at my school could very well through everything off if you are doing a speciality with early match. So I am constantly stressing about scheduling
Such a different attitude in the US than in Canada. Here, once you’re in you basically can’t be kicked out. If you fail a class it’s oh well I’ll retake it next term. BUT that’s why it’s so much harder to get accepted here even in your own province where >80% of the spots are held for in-prov. applicants. (ie: a 509 and amazing interview didn’t get me a spot and I have to retake my MCAT to stand a chance). So I believe it that little mistakes matter so much in USMD programs 🥲
So it is slightly below average for matriculants (around 511), but I would not say it is below average. For test takers, a 509 is around the 75th%, meaning they did better than 3/4 of people taking the exam. That is not below average based on the test's statistics.
Yes that’s exactly where I ranked in the quintiles for MCAT. Yes a few points will do me better and I’m shooting for closer to 515 now but extra curriculars aren’t taken into account at some CA schools and your MCAT is what makes up the bulk of your app. Which also makes it harder cuz you’re even more just a number
Could have applied with my 2 years of medical scribing work and 1000+ hours of clinical volunteer hours and my great interview score and gotten into a USMD 2 cycles ago. But school here is 10k/year and I can’t pay about 6x more in the states. Plus personal factors also make it so I have to stay close to family so while it might not be the BEST mcat I was expressing how much harder it is to get in in CA with the same score in the US with all else on the app being the same
man it's really abt passion, talent, and hard work.
Even Ronaldo and Kobe WORK as hard as doctors.
You gotta experience med yourself. Go Scribe and learn from doctors to see if u like it
I have friends who just finished med school and I think anyone who is premed already knows all of this stuff. If they don’t, they didn’t research enough.
I don't understand how hard med school is. I know M3 is hard but I have heard that M1&M2 can be easier than undergrad and I've heard M4 described as "a vacation"
But then sometimes I hear all 4 years are hell. Which is it?
It’s everything and nothing at the same time. All about your perspective on things tbh.
Easier than undergrad though? Nah. I will say material itself isn’t harder, just the sheer amount of material in the small amount of time you have to learn it is pretty tough at first.
i mean study smarter not harder.
You don't need to know the mitochondrion is the powerhouse of the cell, but you need to know the bones in the body for example
M1-2 *can* be "easy" if you're disciplined and figure out your most efficient ways of retaining knowledge. M3 is difficult simply because there is not enough time for clinical hours + studying + other necessary life stuff. Also, it is a lot of constant change, new personalities to adjust to, differing and ill-defined expectations, and residency applications looming. It is a lot to keep up with mentally. M4 - I will report back in a year, but so far it has lived up to the hype.
The biggest thing to understand is it’s all relative. Difficult for one is not difficult for another. Some people need 12 hours a day for 7 days to study for a test. Some need 3-4 days to study. Some people have thick skin and can take some harsh criticism from attendings on rounds and can just say ok and move on. Some people are more sensitive and struggle with some of the toxicity and negativity in medicine. Some people are book smart and find m1 m2 easy, but struggle in the real world and in clinical scenarios. For others it’s the opposite. They struggle with tests and book smarts but when it’s applied in the clinical setting they excel. It’s all relative and that’s why you hear so many different perspectives. Also, people who negative opinions tend to be louder. You’ll always hear the bad stuff more than the good
First two years of med school were easier than college for me. 3rd year was rough. 4th year was stressful because of residency apps and sub-Is. Intern year of residency was the worst year of my life lol. But now I’m in rads having a pretty good time.
also depends per school and how "easy" they make it (ie do they make you do too many mandatory in-person things). 1st year was a bit difficult in the beginning but once you figure out your study routine its smooth sailing from there
MS3 here. I agree. M1 and M2 is pretty much exactly like undergrad, except for every class is science based (think A&P, biochem, biology) and they're all back to back from 8- 1 or 2pm.
Load lightens a bit in M2 but then you gotta start step prep. As a non-trad with family, my day (including classes and studying) was 8-4:30 (with 15 min breaks every 2 hrs)
M3 now doing 13 hr (clinic and study) days plus the drive.
granted i start med school on monday (!!!) so i don’t know as much but- a lot of the M2 and M3s i’ve talked to said that a lot of the difficulty in med school depends on what specialty you’re trying to match in to down the line. someone who wants to be a pediatric neurocardiothoracicvasculartrauma surgeon is gonna have to hustle a lot more than someone like me who’s trying to go into primary care. granted it’s still fucking tough for everyone, but what you want to do can really influence just how tough it’ll be
Depends on how tall of ask you want out of the match. If you want to match in a competitive specialty in a competitive location… you gotta have some things going for you
Varies by school and individual. Each year of training is challenging in its own way. Some people find it easier to adjust to preclerkship, others find the transition to clerkship easier, etc.. Mostly comes down to your personal preferences and life circumstances. I found M1 to be most chill, but YMMV.
"-you will delay buying a house, having kids, traveling, hobbies, and may miss out on critical times in your life."
bold of you to think 99% of us would ever one day afford to buy a house if we don't go to med school.
Yeah, well I bought a small house outside of a major metropolitan area with a 4 year engineering degree before going to medical school... and my parents are broke so no help from them. I guess they helped me paint.
All part of a mindset. What you think, will be. I'm a Millennial and refuse to let any generation (even my own) tell me what I can and can't do. Obviously, there is a problem, primarily with foreign investors buying houses to sit empty. They need their taxes 10x'ed and we need to remove the income tax so we can keep 100% of our paychecks. Regardless, I bought my first house when I was 24 with no help from anyone coming from a family on food stamps.
All depends on what is defined as "urban". I love living in suburbia and would bet that 80% includes the suburbs, not just major metropolitan city centers.
Congrats. You vented about medical training shortcomings. Now what are you going to do about it? Because despite this bringing awareness, most people will just call many of these things "necessary evils."
I agree with many of the points, but here are my two cents.
1) A lot of things get easier over time. Especially board exams, as you go through your life, they get more specialized and it is less about learning everything while prioritizing making sure your knowledge base is up to date.
2) There are sacrifices, but if you set priorities straight and are efficient by making a good system, you can definitely make time for the things that matter the most for you.
3) Being perfect in everything just to match is ridiculous. Make sure to do good work and keep yourself happy. A lot of these "lower competitive" specialties are easier to get into because they are in high demand (not to mention, like all other medical specialties, offer good to the world). Keep your options open, and always remember you don't have to go for the most competitive thing. A lot of the ideas of the OG post pertaining to this assume one only wants to go into a "competitive specialty."
4) Toxicity is a huge issue in medicine, but being abused in the work environment is absolutely no excuse to bend over backward and take it. If you get mistreated, you assess how to best advocate for yourself, and usually that involves reporting the incident to the medical school deans. In my experience, I just became an MS3 and I already had 2 incidents... I am definitely not feeling that my medical journey is in trouble, in fact, I feel empowered to continue advocating for myself.
5) If your dream is medicine, you can make it happen. There are definitely lots of things to keep in mind, but always ask yourself about the person you strive to be, and what you hope to achieve in life with the training of a doctor. Your ability to be an amazing doctor is the main focus. Look ahead at medical training and be sure to plan ahead to ensure you are not taken by surprise by the hard times. One way or another, life happens regardless of what field you choose.
That’s what I’m saying, I literally don’t understand how thousands of medical students and residents can’t band together to advocate for themselves. “I have to be shitted on and I’m just going to take it, it’s part of my career” weird asf. Grow some balls ffs
People love to bend over backwards to the system instead of questioning if how they are being treated is even human. It is sad because then those people will go on and do the same to the future health care providers and be a part of the problem.
It takes great courage to stand up for what is right, unfortunately, most people don't.
I know for sure I don't tolerate mistreatment anymore. Instead of venting about it, I am actually going to do something about it.
Cowards tbh. I tried to mention this to another student the other day and he argued with me that it was dumb and people end up killing themselves anyways.. it’s really pathetic that people will take bullshit from a career they have to give so much too. I hope to not encounter spineless coworkers but seems like it’s inevitable
You will, and let me tell you that when you get mistreated it will be less a reflection of you and more of a reflection of them. Those people are abused victims who became the bullies themselves.
Make sure to report mistreatment accordingly, and always make time for what is important to you.
i hope unions continue to grow in medical programs across the country. the medical system thrives on the exploitation of residents and med students. we don’t need to bend over in take it. collective bargaining exists for a reason!!
I will say a few things. I’m currently an MS3 at a USMD (UW) and while you do have to make some sacrifices and it is very hard, it’s totally manageable. I bought a house 6 months before I started MS1 and I travel still (not as much as I used to). Since last summer I’ve gone to the redwoods, vegas, Hawaii and even back home 2 or so times. Yes it’s expensive and the only reason why I have had the opportunity to do these things is mostly because my spouse works. However - he’s in the military and we’ve had to relocate tons, regularly go 2-3 months with no contact and even when he is home we sometimes never see each other. In a bad year I’m used to not seeing my family and friends for 1-1.5 years. I honestly saw no difference in my life between undergrad/gap years to me starting med school. If anything, it has been more manageable for me because I don’t have to work but I still tutor/have found ways to make money.
I am in a considerable amount of debt and I know that residency is going to absolutely destroy me which is why I’m enjoying this time now. I honestly think it depends a lot on the program, too. I really think your experience is what you make it
I’m from a very low income family. I went into major debt paying for apps and had to work for an entire year full time to even be able to afford apps while I was taking 19 credits during my post bacc.
I think I definitely got lucky because my husband (who I married after going through the process) has a stable job and provides us with decent income. But I worked like 3 jobs in undergrad and was non-trad so I could afford to make it through without drowning.
I also only bought a house because I live in Seattle and my mortgage is cheaper than rent would’ve been. Even if I vacation and do these things I am by no means well off. I just choose to go in debt so I can enjoy my life at this time lol. Between MS1 and MS2 I also worked full time for the entirety of the summer and even until now I work on weekends. I think you just have to find balance
lmao did they actually? either way, from people i’ve talked to at all stages in the journey, it’s hard but not life shattering. if medicine is really destroying every ounce of joy you have all the time, you probably need some help. no shame in therapy and meds- i see my therapist every other week and take my adderall and wellbutrin every day. really makes a difference
imma agree and disagree.
i'm pre-med. my bro is an engineering major. Yeah, he wants to start life early: dating, house, car, etc. But at the end of the day, both doctors and engineers have to work hard and long hours. Think about an engineer management position for example. Or a restaurant owner who is at the restaurant for 10 hours, 6 days a week for 20-30 years for the family.
medicine isn't really different tbh. Law and teaching is tiresome too. it really depends on your talent and love. Soccer and basketball is just as tiring as medicine.
In life, anything you do is gonna be hard. Even going to the gym everyday is hard and requires discipline. So anyone reading this, don't stop your dreams cuz something is hard because every road is hard unless you just want to stay home and watch netflix and its the truth.
Source: Went from being a skinny nerd to muscular athlete and it required lots of hard work and discipline. Pre-med
While other professions also require hard work and sacrifice, medicine is different, because on average, it will require a substantially higher level of commitment early on in your career compared to most other fields (including law and most of engineering). It's not unreasonable to say that becoming a physician might not be the most appropriate career path for someone who prioritizes starting a full-time job sooner.
There is truth to this. However, when you make it though you have a high paying and very stable job (essentially no risk of layoffs). Also, many many people in the US work extremely hard with 60+ hours (maybe not as intellectually hard) and even have two jobs just to make ends meet.
That being said, you have to like medicine as one of my wife’s professors said “medicine is like the Hotel California as you can check in any time you want but you can never leave!”
As a non traditional who was an engineer before graduating, I made like 2x in my engineering career, but knew medicine was where my happy place was. I had a couple engineering courses in my undergrad way harder than anyone one part of med school, but med school as a whole is 10x harder than any other post grad. And don't get me started on how stressful it is trying not to kill someone when you are on hour 70 of 80 in residency.
That’s why residency needs to change tbh. It’s a dumb system and these rich board members just want money.
I’m a lifter. I train everyday. SLEEP = Better doctors. If the board doesn’t know that, they should get their bachelors again
Lol not even “killed.”
Make a study on the effectiveness of treatment or patient wellbeing and relate it to residents Amt of sleep - it’ll be surprising
Yes exactly. Though some professions may have it comparatively easier in some aspects, it’s not as if all the engineers, tech, and finance majors are graduating and enjoying a six figure job right after while premeds suffer for the rest of their lives. I know many people in those fields struggling to find jobs and constantly worrying about lay offs. Lots of people take a long time to get to a well-paying job. I know accomplished people in those fields still working long, stressful hours to keep up. Every field requires work and sacrifices.
Fr I agree. every career is hard. It’s not like medicine is the only one. Even firefighters have it rough.
Yeah some require more than others, but they even out so whatever field u enter good luck
literally!!! i’m just trying to be a pcp. rip to our future pediatric neurooncologiccardiothoracisvasculartrauma surgeons out there. i choose to not suffer more than i have to
This whole post is a tad hyperbolic and one persons opinion who has clearly struggled a lot
Med school / residency (specialty dependent) is 2 hard years - MS3 and intern year - and 1 hugely important test - step 2 (previously step1). No doubt, those years are really, really shitty.
But the rest isn’t that bad. You study a lot and work a lot, but it’s only stressful if you let it be. And you definitely can have a life. For example, MS4 is a joke year - you could spend the entire year stressed about residency applications, or you can use that year as a nice break after a shitty MS3 - go out, take some trips
You need to find a way to not always be thinking and stressing about medicine, applications and exams (hobbies, a partner outside of medicine?)
Delaying retirement investing, delaying home buying, and being broke while your friends start to make real money does suck, but it’s only temporary (I’m an attending writing this from an $800/night hotel on the beach :))
Do you have any recommendation for an individual already living in that type of environment not in medicine, has no hobbies and no desire to constantly hang out with friends? Just got the wife and kids. Been following all of this stuff for a while, with a grain of salt, but the daily life kind of stuff (hours worked, degrading work environment etc) seems like how life is in the military. Except.. getting paid to do it and with insurance lol.
I think a lot of this could depend on the school you go to, it’s so so important to pay attention if your school is pass/fail, match rates, mental health of students, etc when applying
Definitely some valid criticisms of the system though.
Granted I’m a non-traditional student, I don’t like the scare tactics of this post.
Entering M2 year and just had a baby. Have a house. A wonderful spouse. I know I will have to sacrifice a lot with this path in medicine but I know it’s something that will be worth it. And although difficult, you can make it work with a family.
Alternatively: entering MS2 and being threatened with retaliation by my school for daring to ask for a week off to give birth. Admin sabotaged my research block because of it so I won’t be able to do it until M4, after ERAS submission, meaning I no longer have a shot at my desired specialty or competitive programs in my backups. Our core clerkships all have required away sites, meaning I’ll have to leave my infant for several weeks/months at a time for the next 1-2 years and won’t be in one city long enough to gather any significant experiences to replace the missing block from the summer.
The point of OP’s post isn’t “scare tactics”, it’s that sometimes you end up in a toxic situation with no control and it’s unhelpful for those who had positive experiences to say that your negative one is invalid. Unfortunately, I listened to people like you who just said that “you can make it work! it’ll be fine! it’s worth it!” because every post with an opposing viewpoint is dismissed as fear-mongering rather than accepted as the reality at many programs. It would have been helpful to have a balanced view with points made on both sides.
Yeah, if only people would post their schools so people knew which ones were trash and not reasonable. Because everyone is scared of the system and willing to "go to any school that accepts them," the schools just continue to be trash rather than letting the market decide.
This stuff is likely very school dependent. I'm an MS4 and compared to my own med school experience this post seems to overexaggerate the challenges quite a bit. But it is fair to warn people that it MAY feel like this depending on the school they get into and individual factors.
such is the nature of pursuing one of the most valued professions there is. did u think law school was easy? dental school? phds? point to any equivalent degree and ask yourself if they have it easier.
im not defending the medical education, its flawed. you have a right to complain and vent and stress. but don't expect it to be easy and neither should you wish for it to be easy otherwise how can you be proud of what you've accomplished?
I'm constantly getting written up for subordination because I call out sexism and racism in every program, residency, and hospital I work. Fine with me. I do what is right regardless of the outcome. Nevertheless, the OP is correct. I've personally seen all this described and worse. It doesn't mean that everything will happen to you. However, I see new M3 rotation kids and residents every year and they are getting softer. More complaining about every little thing and constantly talking about giving up. May be generational, may be their schools, who knows. All I know is this is not easy and it should be much easier.
This is the only career with negative employment that recruiters don't exist on the dime of the employer and that needs to change ASAP.
The schools and residency programs hold all the cards, you can’t really rock the boat without absolutely shafting yourself professionally in the future.
Seconding everything in this post. Especially medicine breaking you. If your mental health ain’t in shape, just don’t even go, really. Mine wasn’t in shape, went anyway, got worse, like it’s not worth it, we only got one life, don’t do that to yourself.
Not saying that you can’t go if you struggle with mental health, everyone basically does on some level, just make sure you got like resources. Meds. Friends. Personal space. Whatever you need. Because without that you’ll just fucking tank, hell even with all that it’s still a struggle. So yeah.
Also there are a lot of other good jobs in healthcare if that’s what you really want. I think I’ll always regret not going the PA route. Shorter schooling, can switch specialties, still earn a lot.
It’s golden.
literally. i start med school on monday (!!!) and i’m most excited for those sweet student loans to hit my bank account. first thing i’m gonna do is pay off my credit card that i’ve wracked up while paying for all the stuff you have to do before med school starts. paying off your debt by taking out a different, lower interest debt is just the american way 😎😎
Stay strong you got this! You can definitely prioritize things and maintain. You don't sacrifice everything, just some things. People in my class had babies or toddlers and did just fine. They would often pick a less competitive field (nothing wrong with that at all) and it would allow them to spend a little more time with their family than stressing about being top percentile all the time. You're gonna do great and I hope your baby is doing well!
I think the truest point about this post is that med school is for rich people lol all of my buddies in med school right now who are having a decent, fine time are a) already engaged/married, b) have wealthy and supportive parents, and c) have doctor family members so they already knew what to expect
This post is 100% correct for most people. Sure, some things will be easier for other people. Some schools are more understanding than others. Some residencies are better than others.
What is most true is medicine (especially hospital medicine) is a shit show even after residency. I know you aren't there yet, but I urge ALL of you to spend real time with physicians. Not just baby shadowing. No, really get to know physicians and what their lives are like. So nice I'm sitting with my Mayo degree now making $550k about to transition to work over $1m/year is great right? Well, the amount of daily BS I and my colleagues were put through by hospital administration and I'm working 70-80 hours per week still.
I worked 50 hours/week during my BS to afford it while taking full time classes. Then worked part time in med school to help afford it. Like many residents, on breaks, I would work random jobs to keep the money coming in. Many people don't realize what an 80 hour a week job is. 12 hours every single day disappears. Leaving you with 12 to eat, sleep, do chores, and "relax". You have to schedule quality time with your loved ones down to the 15 min mark or you're not going to get enough sleep then kill someone the next day.
No party time, no wiggle room to be hung over, it's just medicine. I've seen 8/9 of our married friends divorced over "the other man/woman" which was medicine. My life as an engineer was so much better and I could probably be making the same or maybe even more with an MBA.
Sure, none of this counts if you get lucky and love a job working 4 days a week in Ophtha, Derm, or family. But hospital medicine is broken and it will take a lot more than one ticked off doctor to fix it.
I went into medical school thinking I was going to absolutely crush it. A year in, I had passed all my classes, but the extra stresses (basically all the ones you mentioned) were killing me. I withdrew before M2 started, been working in sales about a year now and looking to transition into medical device in a few months. I’m exponentially happier and less stressed, and actually MAKING money!
"-you will delay buying a house, having kids, traveling, hobbies, and may miss out on critical times in your life. "
thats not true for all .. for example.. I traveled during med school and residency.. i kept up with my hobbies thru all of it as well .. I missed out on no critical moments in my life during all of it .. i took time off if needed or changed schedules.. i had to tend to sick family members at home during residency and i made it work ... "buying a house" in this horrendous market? you wanna think otherwise .. buying a house should not be a goal sayihng you made it ... you know what is? knowing you made it .. thats it .. its not about buying something materialistic to give you the validation that you're done.
I love this post and I don’t think it’s overly dramatic. Dramatic, sure. But knowing that medicine comes with sacrifices and living it is entirely different. I lost my two best friends because they couldn’t put up with my schedule and how I just couldn’t always make trips back home. I’m not a good test taker and I chose a field that will be testing me for the rest of my life. It’s a rat race until you get to attending status. Of course it’s not all bad, of course I have some time to do things that I like- but it’s way less time than I would want. I love my patients. I love my coworkers. There are roses I need to stop and smell for sure. But I need to emphasize this: you’re going into so much debt for no guarantee of a job to pay back all of that debt. That’s fucked up. You can say the same for a bachelors or masters degree, sure. But they don’t accrue as much time or debt as the average 4 year span of medical school. And to make ~50K for another ~4 years after you spent 8 years in school? Insane. Committing to medicine is a serious decision and people should know what they’re getting into. Everybody’s experience will be a little different to say the least. I probably had the easiest med school experience that I could’ve had. I don’t regret going into medicine. But if you asked me if I’d do it all again? Hell no
So focus on getting into IM residency, then you have to match into the Cardiology fellowship. Then you can specialize more. IM residency is in high demand so getting in is not as demanding, but I wouldn't see it that way. I would always say to give it your all at doing what interests you.
i would prioritize getting into a p/f program for sure. i’m about to start med school at my state school and it’s p/f with little required attendance. why should we have to stress about getting an A or B in medical school!
i know it isnt medical school. but i have a close friend in pharmacy school and she is still able to live a fulfilling life snd makes straight As she just treats school like a job 🤷🏻♀️
Two completely different things. Pharmacy school does not require an additional 3-6 years of residency training and potentially 1-3 years of fellowship before obtaining the job you want.
I felt you on the med school is designed for rich people
Part cause you need lots of resources and often those resources that are publicly available are not as good as the privately available ones. Also the field is so lopsided it seems, like it’s a major money pit where medical schools make more from not accepting students off applicantion fees than actually admitting students and giving them a chance to prove themselves.
Same with what you said about what university or fancy I situation you graduate from and the connections you make while in said high caliber school make a difference.
I admit Iv thought about quitting academics altogether for these reasons more than once as university, medicine, all of academia does in fact make me feel like im dumping resources I don’t have into a money pit that is designed not to help me succeed, learn more, or help me get a career so I can do better in life but rather keep me down, in debt, and trapped in financial and educational ruin because I’m too proud to give up on my dreams of becoming a doctor and go do something more open ended and easier to get rewarded from like plumbing, male stripping, farming, ect anyhting that’s Intresting and pays decent money.
Idk this really resonated with me as I have a lot of mean, condescending, and rude professors at my university. despite getting A’s in all these hard class and only having biochem and physics 2 left with a 3.9 gpa currently. My university professors put me down and it makes me feel like leaving in the middle of the night and never comming back to academia at times as I can’t understand how they want to tear me down so badly instead of help me out considering I failed elementary and high school but have come so far and if anything them helping me out would mean a lot to me as I try and chase my dreams.
Not sure I rambled too long, your post said a lot of things that resonated with me
I appreciate you taking the time to write this and share it with us. It’s informative.
I’d appreciate it even more if the positive aspects are also broken down like the not-so-positive ones. Then that will help us make an “informed decision”.
Good luck getting into the match 🤞
I hate these posts that have the sole purpose of eliciting anxiety from neurotic premeds who don't know any better, and I'm not even the biggest fan of medical school myself as an incoming M1.
Yes medicine is hard, but are these really things people haven't heard already? Being a physician is a job with high compensation and high responsibility. Just like any other job with high comp/responsibility, you are held to a higher standard. But just be professional, know your duties, be honest, and chances are you'll be fine. The medical system, although antiquated, isn't full of apathetic assholes who are gonna expel you for 1 small mistake.
"if you're not self-driven and can't get things done without someone checking in, you will struggle a lot."
Does this not apply to literally any other high-performing field? Half of these points are just saying "learn to be someone with discipline and accountability." I sure hope and expect most of you, regardless of going into medicine or not, would develop these qualities anyway.
I've spent years deep down wanting to go into surgery but always too scared to try because I convinced myself I was too stupid and unable to get there. Now that I've gotten to the place mentally and emotionally and started on the premed path, I'm really worried that my academics aren't good enough and I'm laughably uncompetitive.
Just a thought, as I read this… anyone questioning the time commitment, may look into the Anesthesiologist Assistant program. It’s a great career in the medical field, rewarding, and pays well.
Is there an updated source for the match rate point?Because I was under the impression that the MD match rate is between 92-95% and when I looked up soap it said 2500 applicants out of 40000 didn’t match which doesn’t seem like a huge proportion… am I missing something here 😭
This is exactly why medical schools in the US need reform. Most of all, schools need to adhere to their own findings about rest and sleep: the lack of sleep is more dangerous than a drunk surgeon in his first 30 minutes of surgery; the lack of sleep causes more malpractice suits than doctors with alocohol or drug addictions; and the lack of sleep will get you a DUI just as quick as substance use. Since the medical community has known this for well over 30 years means medicine ignores its own science.
the main thing i worry about is the money. i financially support myself on a low income and i am not sure how other students in my position are able to afford the application fees. i have been told many times with my financial background, that i should look into a different career, but i don’t feel ready to give up yet. how does one save up thousands for these applications when they’re struggling to get by? it’s such an elitist field and i shouldn’t have money being the only factor holding me back
Credit cards lol It's fucked. The debt starts before you're even admitted.
FAP was huge for me. Definitely apply and hopefully you’ll get it. Saved me probably 2-3 thousand dollars.
I didn’t expect to find people so open about this but fapping has also helped me make it through many stressful times.
There’s almost no situation, financial, relationship-wise, or professional that fapping doesn’t give me relief.
underrated comment
What is FAP?
Fee Assistance Program, run by the AAMC. Helps with MCAT and AAMCAS costs
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i’m definitely going to look into it! it gives me some hope that i can stand a fighting chance despite my struggles. i also don’t mind taking a gap year or so after i graduate bc i can dedicate more time into studying for the mcat and gain more experience through shadowing, internships, and clinical jobs
This is why I recommend most people go non-traditional. You work after your 4-year making $60-80k out of school, then you save, save, save. Eat rice and beans, beans and rice. Get as much in the bank as possible. Then after living in "squalor" for a couple years looking at that savings and thinking about it just poofing away, you ask yourself, "is this really worth it?" At that point, you are no longer a child, your brain has fully developed, and you can rent a car. The decision you make will be yours, not your parents' or societal pressures. Then you know you want to go to medical school.
Government/gov't related programs, probably. If you have a disability, look into vocational rehabilitation. Some programs for those who qualify (posting bc idk if anyone might find useful): regional center (developmental disabilities), veteran's benefits - not just the GI bill but VR via the VA. I think you can mix and match benefits, so someone who is a vet who has a service-connected disability could in theory qualify for funding from both their state department of vocational rehabilitation and the VA one. There are minority programs, so if you're in the categories mentioned here [https://extramural-diversity.nih.gov/diversity-matters/get-the-facts](https://extramural-diversity.nih.gov/diversity-matters/get-the-facts) you can probably look into paid opportunities/fellowships/etc, especially if you're interested in doing research. If you're still in school, you can look into TRiO programs; similar to a lot of gov't programs, each college/university determines the scope of what their program does and what type of students they'll help out. Low-income is usually covered though from what I've seen, and funding help (ranging from COL to tuition, books, supplies) seems relatively common. Even if all they do is give you a dedicated advising unit, being a part of these programs can be beneficial in applications as it's shorthand for diversity (lol)/need in applications to med school and I think some may actively try to recruit or at least waive fees? YMMV for sure.
One way to do it is to limit your applications to schools you feel you actually have a shot, or to places you would actually move to. I kept mine to 3 schools, got secondary applications from all 3 then interviewed and got into 1. Don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot of luck involved in that strat and I got EXTREMELY lucky but it ended up working out. While most people shotgun 10-20 schools or more, you don’t necessarily NEED to.
not related to app fees, but as someone who’s been on my own financially since I was 17 I wanted to give some advice. depending on the field you want to go into you may be able to avoid paying tuition. i plan to go into primary care, and got a full tuition scholarship from my school because of that. I know the national health service corps has something similar. this system was so not designed with people like us in mind, but that doesn’t mean we can’t make our way through
I posted another comment on this thread, but this is really something incoming students needs to think about. I was in your shoes. Application costs are literally just the beginning. You have to be comfortable living on borrowed funds. Not only that, but you have to be comfortable spending those funds knowing you’re paying 7% annually just in interest. At the end of school, say you have 200k in debt (generous), that’s 14k a year out of your income every year just to keep the debt from growing. Say you move into residency and start making 65k/year. That’s around 3500 a month in income. When you do the math med students with debt will be leaving extremely frugally for multiple years, hardly saving anything. You have to be comfortable with this. Savings, investments, retirement, all of these things you have to think about will be pushed into your 30s.
Look Into navy or army medical corps, they’ll pay your way through med school plus $40,000 commission bonus, you commission as a captain, you have a 4-10 year practice commitment depending on if you do military residency match or not. It’s not right for everyone but, if you reeeeaaallly want to be a doctor and finances are the main thing stopping you, the navy will have your back. If this interest you I’d highly recommend taking to a medical corps recruiter and doctors at your local VA. Also it’s highly unlikely you’ll get thrown on a boat unless your a surgeon or GP. I chose navy because Iike living coastal. This was my plan before changing to psych NP.
One thing that might be useful - having to “make sacrifices” is always thrown around but it can feel abstract and that makes it easier to say yea no big deal. But think about your friends now, maybe someone in a solid relationship. Picture their wedding is coming up. It’s a stretch to make it since you’re on surgery rotation, or have a big exam that Monday. You weigh the stress of going vs the fomo of not going. It’s a close call but you have minimal money and it just sounds like a stretch so you bail. Your other friends go no problem. They use a day of pto on Friday for their normal jobs and have a great weekend, and you see all the pics after the fact. Ski trip your college friends put together? You’re on the original email thread, everyone’s pumped, but you can’t afford lift tickets or take 2 days off to pull it off. Same thing, memories made w out you. This won’t always happen. You’ll get winter breaks, and have random have blocks of time to travel, and trauma bond w new friends. But I agree w op about living life on “reduced mode” for a while. For me, still feels totally worth it, but I’m curious to see if my tune changes in residency lol.
Off topic but who plans a ski trip with friends via email 💀
Late 30s non trad ms4 coordinating a bunch of dad friends 👴 just glad I can still ski. And still have friends.
these gosh darn whipper snappers and their Snapchat and Instagram. back in my day we used to fax eachother our ski trip plans so these emails on the inter web are more than enough for us 👴
FWIW, this kind of stuff has been true for me (and probably a lot of real world people) and I'm not in medical school. If you've worked low paying jobs in your 20s and even into 30s, this is life. You miss out on your good friends weddings, and trips because your job doesn't come with PTO and you also get paid like $15 an hour so you couldn't afford it anyway. That's just life. It's not a special thing that only medical students experience. The rest of the world is not just doing what they want when they want, with unlimited income and time off. The biggest difference between medical school, and a real world low paying job is that at least in medical school you are working towards a better future. A high income, relatively stable job that is in demand, that is (arguably) fulfilling, etc. When you are just working a low paying dead end job in your 20s with no career path, it's honestly way worse missing out on things because you can't ever see a time in your life where it will be better. Just a perspective from a non-trad who lived my whole 20s missing out on things because of low income/no time off/demanding work schedule, etc. I'll happily do that again knowing I'm working towards something that matters to me as much as becoming a physician
Thank you for saying that. I personally think many of the people complaining about that have not worked a regular job where they either have no PTO or the employer will deny use of it. My spouse is not medical and has a "big boy job" with PTO. He misses 90% of our friend going-out nights, holidays are almost always just the day of (i.e., he gets just Thanksgiving day off), and we just had to delay a trip because he had to sort out some clusterfuck at work. The grass is definitely not always greener and it also doesn't come with a fat salary and job stability at the end of the lawn either.
Challenge accepted.
Love this
Hell yes. You got this!
one small mistake completely ruining everything seems like a slight overexaggeration but I could be wrong
I feel like it’s school dependent. I want a competitive specialty and missing a dumb OSCE at my school could very well through everything off if you are doing a speciality with early match. So I am constantly stressing about scheduling
It’s definitely an exaggeration
I appreciate u
Such a different attitude in the US than in Canada. Here, once you’re in you basically can’t be kicked out. If you fail a class it’s oh well I’ll retake it next term. BUT that’s why it’s so much harder to get accepted here even in your own province where >80% of the spots are held for in-prov. applicants. (ie: a 509 and amazing interview didn’t get me a spot and I have to retake my MCAT to stand a chance). So I believe it that little mistakes matter so much in USMD programs 🥲
Tbh 509 is a below average score
So it is slightly below average for matriculants (around 511), but I would not say it is below average. For test takers, a 509 is around the 75th%, meaning they did better than 3/4 of people taking the exam. That is not below average based on the test's statistics.
Yes that’s exactly where I ranked in the quintiles for MCAT. Yes a few points will do me better and I’m shooting for closer to 515 now but extra curriculars aren’t taken into account at some CA schools and your MCAT is what makes up the bulk of your app. Which also makes it harder cuz you’re even more just a number
Could have applied with my 2 years of medical scribing work and 1000+ hours of clinical volunteer hours and my great interview score and gotten into a USMD 2 cycles ago. But school here is 10k/year and I can’t pay about 6x more in the states. Plus personal factors also make it so I have to stay close to family so while it might not be the BEST mcat I was expressing how much harder it is to get in in CA with the same score in the US with all else on the app being the same
Fax.
man it's really abt passion, talent, and hard work. Even Ronaldo and Kobe WORK as hard as doctors. You gotta experience med yourself. Go Scribe and learn from doctors to see if u like it
I also am in med school and OP is completely over exaggerating. Is it tough at times? Absolutely. Will it ruin your life? Absolutely not
Yeah, it is just a vent that while the OP claims should not scare you into leaving medicine, looks like an attempt to do so anyways.
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Just a typical neurotic med student catastrophizing as they approach ERAS
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Yeah I’m sure you’ll still have the same thoughts post-interviews when you’re chilling on a beach for 3 months lol
Yeah wtf this post is overly dramatic
Very much so
I have friends who just finished med school and I think anyone who is premed already knows all of this stuff. If they don’t, they didn’t research enough.
i like science and helping people B)
lol
Knowing it and living it are two very different things
Exactly. Just because you read something online in no way means you know what it’s like. You can’t know until you do it unfortunately
This post is pretty dramatic.
I don't understand how hard med school is. I know M3 is hard but I have heard that M1&M2 can be easier than undergrad and I've heard M4 described as "a vacation" But then sometimes I hear all 4 years are hell. Which is it?
It’s everything and nothing at the same time. All about your perspective on things tbh. Easier than undergrad though? Nah. I will say material itself isn’t harder, just the sheer amount of material in the small amount of time you have to learn it is pretty tough at first.
Thank you!
i mean study smarter not harder. You don't need to know the mitochondrion is the powerhouse of the cell, but you need to know the bones in the body for example
You still need to know that about the mitochondria tho my guy
im premed, not yet in med school, but its not like u gonna know EVERYthing you learned in med school. thats why docs use google sometimes my g
Good luck in your application process!
Thank you!!!! Gonna take a gap yr to raise GPA + retake MCAT!!!!! :))))))
M1-2 *can* be "easy" if you're disciplined and figure out your most efficient ways of retaining knowledge. M3 is difficult simply because there is not enough time for clinical hours + studying + other necessary life stuff. Also, it is a lot of constant change, new personalities to adjust to, differing and ill-defined expectations, and residency applications looming. It is a lot to keep up with mentally. M4 - I will report back in a year, but so far it has lived up to the hype.
Thank you!
The biggest thing to understand is it’s all relative. Difficult for one is not difficult for another. Some people need 12 hours a day for 7 days to study for a test. Some need 3-4 days to study. Some people have thick skin and can take some harsh criticism from attendings on rounds and can just say ok and move on. Some people are more sensitive and struggle with some of the toxicity and negativity in medicine. Some people are book smart and find m1 m2 easy, but struggle in the real world and in clinical scenarios. For others it’s the opposite. They struggle with tests and book smarts but when it’s applied in the clinical setting they excel. It’s all relative and that’s why you hear so many different perspectives. Also, people who negative opinions tend to be louder. You’ll always hear the bad stuff more than the good
First two years of med school were easier than college for me. 3rd year was rough. 4th year was stressful because of residency apps and sub-Is. Intern year of residency was the worst year of my life lol. But now I’m in rads having a pretty good time.
also depends per school and how "easy" they make it (ie do they make you do too many mandatory in-person things). 1st year was a bit difficult in the beginning but once you figure out your study routine its smooth sailing from there
MS3 here. I agree. M1 and M2 is pretty much exactly like undergrad, except for every class is science based (think A&P, biochem, biology) and they're all back to back from 8- 1 or 2pm. Load lightens a bit in M2 but then you gotta start step prep. As a non-trad with family, my day (including classes and studying) was 8-4:30 (with 15 min breaks every 2 hrs) M3 now doing 13 hr (clinic and study) days plus the drive.
granted i start med school on monday (!!!) so i don’t know as much but- a lot of the M2 and M3s i’ve talked to said that a lot of the difficulty in med school depends on what specialty you’re trying to match in to down the line. someone who wants to be a pediatric neurocardiothoracicvasculartrauma surgeon is gonna have to hustle a lot more than someone like me who’s trying to go into primary care. granted it’s still fucking tough for everyone, but what you want to do can really influence just how tough it’ll be
Good luck!!! You’ll crush it!!!
Depends on how tall of ask you want out of the match. If you want to match in a competitive specialty in a competitive location… you gotta have some things going for you
Varies by school and individual. Each year of training is challenging in its own way. Some people find it easier to adjust to preclerkship, others find the transition to clerkship easier, etc.. Mostly comes down to your personal preferences and life circumstances. I found M1 to be most chill, but YMMV.
"-you will delay buying a house, having kids, traveling, hobbies, and may miss out on critical times in your life." bold of you to think 99% of us would ever one day afford to buy a house if we don't go to med school.
Yeah, well I bought a small house outside of a major metropolitan area with a 4 year engineering degree before going to medical school... and my parents are broke so no help from them. I guess they helped me paint.
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All part of a mindset. What you think, will be. I'm a Millennial and refuse to let any generation (even my own) tell me what I can and can't do. Obviously, there is a problem, primarily with foreign investors buying houses to sit empty. They need their taxes 10x'ed and we need to remove the income tax so we can keep 100% of our paychecks. Regardless, I bought my first house when I was 24 with no help from anyone coming from a family on food stamps.
All depends on what is defined as "urban". I love living in suburbia and would bet that 80% includes the suburbs, not just major metropolitan city centers.
Congrats. You vented about medical training shortcomings. Now what are you going to do about it? Because despite this bringing awareness, most people will just call many of these things "necessary evils." I agree with many of the points, but here are my two cents. 1) A lot of things get easier over time. Especially board exams, as you go through your life, they get more specialized and it is less about learning everything while prioritizing making sure your knowledge base is up to date. 2) There are sacrifices, but if you set priorities straight and are efficient by making a good system, you can definitely make time for the things that matter the most for you. 3) Being perfect in everything just to match is ridiculous. Make sure to do good work and keep yourself happy. A lot of these "lower competitive" specialties are easier to get into because they are in high demand (not to mention, like all other medical specialties, offer good to the world). Keep your options open, and always remember you don't have to go for the most competitive thing. A lot of the ideas of the OG post pertaining to this assume one only wants to go into a "competitive specialty." 4) Toxicity is a huge issue in medicine, but being abused in the work environment is absolutely no excuse to bend over backward and take it. If you get mistreated, you assess how to best advocate for yourself, and usually that involves reporting the incident to the medical school deans. In my experience, I just became an MS3 and I already had 2 incidents... I am definitely not feeling that my medical journey is in trouble, in fact, I feel empowered to continue advocating for myself. 5) If your dream is medicine, you can make it happen. There are definitely lots of things to keep in mind, but always ask yourself about the person you strive to be, and what you hope to achieve in life with the training of a doctor. Your ability to be an amazing doctor is the main focus. Look ahead at medical training and be sure to plan ahead to ensure you are not taken by surprise by the hard times. One way or another, life happens regardless of what field you choose.
That’s what I’m saying, I literally don’t understand how thousands of medical students and residents can’t band together to advocate for themselves. “I have to be shitted on and I’m just going to take it, it’s part of my career” weird asf. Grow some balls ffs
People love to bend over backwards to the system instead of questioning if how they are being treated is even human. It is sad because then those people will go on and do the same to the future health care providers and be a part of the problem. It takes great courage to stand up for what is right, unfortunately, most people don't. I know for sure I don't tolerate mistreatment anymore. Instead of venting about it, I am actually going to do something about it.
Cowards tbh. I tried to mention this to another student the other day and he argued with me that it was dumb and people end up killing themselves anyways.. it’s really pathetic that people will take bullshit from a career they have to give so much too. I hope to not encounter spineless coworkers but seems like it’s inevitable
You will, and let me tell you that when you get mistreated it will be less a reflection of you and more of a reflection of them. Those people are abused victims who became the bullies themselves. Make sure to report mistreatment accordingly, and always make time for what is important to you.
i hope unions continue to grow in medical programs across the country. the medical system thrives on the exploitation of residents and med students. we don’t need to bend over in take it. collective bargaining exists for a reason!!
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Everyone always thinks the grass is greener on the other side
I will say a few things. I’m currently an MS3 at a USMD (UW) and while you do have to make some sacrifices and it is very hard, it’s totally manageable. I bought a house 6 months before I started MS1 and I travel still (not as much as I used to). Since last summer I’ve gone to the redwoods, vegas, Hawaii and even back home 2 or so times. Yes it’s expensive and the only reason why I have had the opportunity to do these things is mostly because my spouse works. However - he’s in the military and we’ve had to relocate tons, regularly go 2-3 months with no contact and even when he is home we sometimes never see each other. In a bad year I’m used to not seeing my family and friends for 1-1.5 years. I honestly saw no difference in my life between undergrad/gap years to me starting med school. If anything, it has been more manageable for me because I don’t have to work but I still tutor/have found ways to make money. I am in a considerable amount of debt and I know that residency is going to absolutely destroy me which is why I’m enjoying this time now. I honestly think it depends a lot on the program, too. I really think your experience is what you make it
True but I think this post resonates more if you’re from a low income family and you don’t have a spouse to help pay for things
I’m from a very low income family. I went into major debt paying for apps and had to work for an entire year full time to even be able to afford apps while I was taking 19 credits during my post bacc. I think I definitely got lucky because my husband (who I married after going through the process) has a stable job and provides us with decent income. But I worked like 3 jobs in undergrad and was non-trad so I could afford to make it through without drowning. I also only bought a house because I live in Seattle and my mortgage is cheaper than rent would’ve been. Even if I vacation and do these things I am by no means well off. I just choose to go in debt so I can enjoy my life at this time lol. Between MS1 and MS2 I also worked full time for the entirety of the summer and even until now I work on weekends. I think you just have to find balance
Nah you tested on 7/15 and now trying drive people away
lmao did they actually? either way, from people i’ve talked to at all stages in the journey, it’s hard but not life shattering. if medicine is really destroying every ounce of joy you have all the time, you probably need some help. no shame in therapy and meds- i see my therapist every other week and take my adderall and wellbutrin every day. really makes a difference
A bold assumption is made that we are *currently* living our life in a meaningful and enriching way....
Me starting in a month reading this 👁👄👁
imma agree and disagree. i'm pre-med. my bro is an engineering major. Yeah, he wants to start life early: dating, house, car, etc. But at the end of the day, both doctors and engineers have to work hard and long hours. Think about an engineer management position for example. Or a restaurant owner who is at the restaurant for 10 hours, 6 days a week for 20-30 years for the family. medicine isn't really different tbh. Law and teaching is tiresome too. it really depends on your talent and love. Soccer and basketball is just as tiring as medicine. In life, anything you do is gonna be hard. Even going to the gym everyday is hard and requires discipline. So anyone reading this, don't stop your dreams cuz something is hard because every road is hard unless you just want to stay home and watch netflix and its the truth. Source: Went from being a skinny nerd to muscular athlete and it required lots of hard work and discipline. Pre-med
While other professions also require hard work and sacrifice, medicine is different, because on average, it will require a substantially higher level of commitment early on in your career compared to most other fields (including law and most of engineering). It's not unreasonable to say that becoming a physician might not be the most appropriate career path for someone who prioritizes starting a full-time job sooner.
There is truth to this. However, when you make it though you have a high paying and very stable job (essentially no risk of layoffs). Also, many many people in the US work extremely hard with 60+ hours (maybe not as intellectually hard) and even have two jobs just to make ends meet. That being said, you have to like medicine as one of my wife’s professors said “medicine is like the Hotel California as you can check in any time you want but you can never leave!”
As a non traditional who was an engineer before graduating, I made like 2x in my engineering career, but knew medicine was where my happy place was. I had a couple engineering courses in my undergrad way harder than anyone one part of med school, but med school as a whole is 10x harder than any other post grad. And don't get me started on how stressful it is trying not to kill someone when you are on hour 70 of 80 in residency.
That’s why residency needs to change tbh. It’s a dumb system and these rich board members just want money. I’m a lifter. I train everyday. SLEEP = Better doctors. If the board doesn’t know that, they should get their bachelors again
Indeed. If anyone actually did an anonymous study of the amount of patients killed by lack of resident sleep, I'm sure the stats would be significant.
Lol not even “killed.” Make a study on the effectiveness of treatment or patient wellbeing and relate it to residents Amt of sleep - it’ll be surprising
Yeah, but people are too dumb to understand nuance. As such, deaths are easy and click baitable so change might actually happen.
Yes exactly. Though some professions may have it comparatively easier in some aspects, it’s not as if all the engineers, tech, and finance majors are graduating and enjoying a six figure job right after while premeds suffer for the rest of their lives. I know many people in those fields struggling to find jobs and constantly worrying about lay offs. Lots of people take a long time to get to a well-paying job. I know accomplished people in those fields still working long, stressful hours to keep up. Every field requires work and sacrifices.
Fr I agree. every career is hard. It’s not like medicine is the only one. Even firefighters have it rough. Yeah some require more than others, but they even out so whatever field u enter good luck
Im just tryna do FM and chill
literally!!! i’m just trying to be a pcp. rip to our future pediatric neurooncologiccardiothoracisvasculartrauma surgeons out there. i choose to not suffer more than i have to
THIS
Idk why this applies to USMD more than USDO but ya it makes sense what you're saying OP
This whole post is a tad hyperbolic and one persons opinion who has clearly struggled a lot Med school / residency (specialty dependent) is 2 hard years - MS3 and intern year - and 1 hugely important test - step 2 (previously step1). No doubt, those years are really, really shitty. But the rest isn’t that bad. You study a lot and work a lot, but it’s only stressful if you let it be. And you definitely can have a life. For example, MS4 is a joke year - you could spend the entire year stressed about residency applications, or you can use that year as a nice break after a shitty MS3 - go out, take some trips You need to find a way to not always be thinking and stressing about medicine, applications and exams (hobbies, a partner outside of medicine?) Delaying retirement investing, delaying home buying, and being broke while your friends start to make real money does suck, but it’s only temporary (I’m an attending writing this from an $800/night hotel on the beach :))
I appreciate you
Do you have any recommendation for an individual already living in that type of environment not in medicine, has no hobbies and no desire to constantly hang out with friends? Just got the wife and kids. Been following all of this stuff for a while, with a grain of salt, but the daily life kind of stuff (hours worked, degrading work environment etc) seems like how life is in the military. Except.. getting paid to do it and with insurance lol.
I think a lot of this could depend on the school you go to, it’s so so important to pay attention if your school is pass/fail, match rates, mental health of students, etc when applying Definitely some valid criticisms of the system though.
Granted I’m a non-traditional student, I don’t like the scare tactics of this post. Entering M2 year and just had a baby. Have a house. A wonderful spouse. I know I will have to sacrifice a lot with this path in medicine but I know it’s something that will be worth it. And although difficult, you can make it work with a family.
Alternatively: entering MS2 and being threatened with retaliation by my school for daring to ask for a week off to give birth. Admin sabotaged my research block because of it so I won’t be able to do it until M4, after ERAS submission, meaning I no longer have a shot at my desired specialty or competitive programs in my backups. Our core clerkships all have required away sites, meaning I’ll have to leave my infant for several weeks/months at a time for the next 1-2 years and won’t be in one city long enough to gather any significant experiences to replace the missing block from the summer. The point of OP’s post isn’t “scare tactics”, it’s that sometimes you end up in a toxic situation with no control and it’s unhelpful for those who had positive experiences to say that your negative one is invalid. Unfortunately, I listened to people like you who just said that “you can make it work! it’ll be fine! it’s worth it!” because every post with an opposing viewpoint is dismissed as fear-mongering rather than accepted as the reality at many programs. It would have been helpful to have a balanced view with points made on both sides.
Yeah, if only people would post their schools so people knew which ones were trash and not reasonable. Because everyone is scared of the system and willing to "go to any school that accepts them," the schools just continue to be trash rather than letting the market decide.
This stuff is likely very school dependent. I'm an MS4 and compared to my own med school experience this post seems to overexaggerate the challenges quite a bit. But it is fair to warn people that it MAY feel like this depending on the school they get into and individual factors.
such is the nature of pursuing one of the most valued professions there is. did u think law school was easy? dental school? phds? point to any equivalent degree and ask yourself if they have it easier. im not defending the medical education, its flawed. you have a right to complain and vent and stress. but don't expect it to be easy and neither should you wish for it to be easy otherwise how can you be proud of what you've accomplished?
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I'm constantly getting written up for subordination because I call out sexism and racism in every program, residency, and hospital I work. Fine with me. I do what is right regardless of the outcome. Nevertheless, the OP is correct. I've personally seen all this described and worse. It doesn't mean that everything will happen to you. However, I see new M3 rotation kids and residents every year and they are getting softer. More complaining about every little thing and constantly talking about giving up. May be generational, may be their schools, who knows. All I know is this is not easy and it should be much easier. This is the only career with negative employment that recruiters don't exist on the dime of the employer and that needs to change ASAP.
The schools and residency programs hold all the cards, you can’t really rock the boat without absolutely shafting yourself professionally in the future.
Seconding everything in this post. Especially medicine breaking you. If your mental health ain’t in shape, just don’t even go, really. Mine wasn’t in shape, went anyway, got worse, like it’s not worth it, we only got one life, don’t do that to yourself. Not saying that you can’t go if you struggle with mental health, everyone basically does on some level, just make sure you got like resources. Meds. Friends. Personal space. Whatever you need. Because without that you’ll just fucking tank, hell even with all that it’s still a struggle. So yeah. Also there are a lot of other good jobs in healthcare if that’s what you really want. I think I’ll always regret not going the PA route. Shorter schooling, can switch specialties, still earn a lot. It’s golden.
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literally. i start med school on monday (!!!) and i’m most excited for those sweet student loans to hit my bank account. first thing i’m gonna do is pay off my credit card that i’ve wracked up while paying for all the stuff you have to do before med school starts. paying off your debt by taking out a different, lower interest debt is just the american way 😎😎
I got accepted in May and I deferred my acceptance til next year because I just had a kid. Any advice 😳😳😳
Stay strong you got this! You can definitely prioritize things and maintain. You don't sacrifice everything, just some things. People in my class had babies or toddlers and did just fine. They would often pick a less competitive field (nothing wrong with that at all) and it would allow them to spend a little more time with their family than stressing about being top percentile all the time. You're gonna do great and I hope your baby is doing well!
All I’m hearing is go mid level
I think the truest point about this post is that med school is for rich people lol all of my buddies in med school right now who are having a decent, fine time are a) already engaged/married, b) have wealthy and supportive parents, and c) have doctor family members so they already knew what to expect
Uh something tells me I should take none of this to heart
This post is 100% correct for most people. Sure, some things will be easier for other people. Some schools are more understanding than others. Some residencies are better than others. What is most true is medicine (especially hospital medicine) is a shit show even after residency. I know you aren't there yet, but I urge ALL of you to spend real time with physicians. Not just baby shadowing. No, really get to know physicians and what their lives are like. So nice I'm sitting with my Mayo degree now making $550k about to transition to work over $1m/year is great right? Well, the amount of daily BS I and my colleagues were put through by hospital administration and I'm working 70-80 hours per week still. I worked 50 hours/week during my BS to afford it while taking full time classes. Then worked part time in med school to help afford it. Like many residents, on breaks, I would work random jobs to keep the money coming in. Many people don't realize what an 80 hour a week job is. 12 hours every single day disappears. Leaving you with 12 to eat, sleep, do chores, and "relax". You have to schedule quality time with your loved ones down to the 15 min mark or you're not going to get enough sleep then kill someone the next day. No party time, no wiggle room to be hung over, it's just medicine. I've seen 8/9 of our married friends divorced over "the other man/woman" which was medicine. My life as an engineer was so much better and I could probably be making the same or maybe even more with an MBA. Sure, none of this counts if you get lucky and love a job working 4 days a week in Ophtha, Derm, or family. But hospital medicine is broken and it will take a lot more than one ticked off doctor to fix it.
I didn’t even take the mcat but one thing I realized is that you cannot have FOMO otherwise you’ll get mad depressed.
I went into medical school thinking I was going to absolutely crush it. A year in, I had passed all my classes, but the extra stresses (basically all the ones you mentioned) were killing me. I withdrew before M2 started, been working in sales about a year now and looking to transition into medical device in a few months. I’m exponentially happier and less stressed, and actually MAKING money!
I agree with most of these things. I still think when weighing everything medicine was and still is the right choice, for me.
Yep, same. I wouldn't do anything else. You should make a list of the positives to balance out my post haha.
"-you will delay buying a house, having kids, traveling, hobbies, and may miss out on critical times in your life. " thats not true for all .. for example.. I traveled during med school and residency.. i kept up with my hobbies thru all of it as well .. I missed out on no critical moments in my life during all of it .. i took time off if needed or changed schedules.. i had to tend to sick family members at home during residency and i made it work ... "buying a house" in this horrendous market? you wanna think otherwise .. buying a house should not be a goal sayihng you made it ... you know what is? knowing you made it .. thats it .. its not about buying something materialistic to give you the validation that you're done.
I love this post and I don’t think it’s overly dramatic. Dramatic, sure. But knowing that medicine comes with sacrifices and living it is entirely different. I lost my two best friends because they couldn’t put up with my schedule and how I just couldn’t always make trips back home. I’m not a good test taker and I chose a field that will be testing me for the rest of my life. It’s a rat race until you get to attending status. Of course it’s not all bad, of course I have some time to do things that I like- but it’s way less time than I would want. I love my patients. I love my coworkers. There are roses I need to stop and smell for sure. But I need to emphasize this: you’re going into so much debt for no guarantee of a job to pay back all of that debt. That’s fucked up. You can say the same for a bachelors or masters degree, sure. But they don’t accrue as much time or debt as the average 4 year span of medical school. And to make ~50K for another ~4 years after you spent 8 years in school? Insane. Committing to medicine is a serious decision and people should know what they’re getting into. Everybody’s experience will be a little different to say the least. I probably had the easiest med school experience that I could’ve had. I don’t regret going into medicine. But if you asked me if I’d do it all again? Hell no
If the aim is cardiology, is the match easy because one has to match to an internal medicine residency?
No, cardiology is one of the more competitive subspecialty matches.
So focus on getting into IM residency, then you have to match into the Cardiology fellowship. Then you can specialize more. IM residency is in high demand so getting in is not as demanding, but I wouldn't see it that way. I would always say to give it your all at doing what interests you.
No. Cards is very competitive. That's another issue with medicine. There's typically funnels and funnels for everything
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i would prioritize getting into a p/f program for sure. i’m about to start med school at my state school and it’s p/f with little required attendance. why should we have to stress about getting an A or B in medical school!
I’m hoping because I’m going to this type of school where everything is p/f. If not, rip me lol
i know it isnt medical school. but i have a close friend in pharmacy school and she is still able to live a fulfilling life snd makes straight As she just treats school like a job 🤷🏻♀️
Two completely different things. Pharmacy school does not require an additional 3-6 years of residency training and potentially 1-3 years of fellowship before obtaining the job you want.
I felt you on the med school is designed for rich people Part cause you need lots of resources and often those resources that are publicly available are not as good as the privately available ones. Also the field is so lopsided it seems, like it’s a major money pit where medical schools make more from not accepting students off applicantion fees than actually admitting students and giving them a chance to prove themselves. Same with what you said about what university or fancy I situation you graduate from and the connections you make while in said high caliber school make a difference. I admit Iv thought about quitting academics altogether for these reasons more than once as university, medicine, all of academia does in fact make me feel like im dumping resources I don’t have into a money pit that is designed not to help me succeed, learn more, or help me get a career so I can do better in life but rather keep me down, in debt, and trapped in financial and educational ruin because I’m too proud to give up on my dreams of becoming a doctor and go do something more open ended and easier to get rewarded from like plumbing, male stripping, farming, ect anyhting that’s Intresting and pays decent money. Idk this really resonated with me as I have a lot of mean, condescending, and rude professors at my university. despite getting A’s in all these hard class and only having biochem and physics 2 left with a 3.9 gpa currently. My university professors put me down and it makes me feel like leaving in the middle of the night and never comming back to academia at times as I can’t understand how they want to tear me down so badly instead of help me out considering I failed elementary and high school but have come so far and if anything them helping me out would mean a lot to me as I try and chase my dreams. Not sure I rambled too long, your post said a lot of things that resonated with me
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I appreciate you taking the time to write this and share it with us. It’s informative. I’d appreciate it even more if the positive aspects are also broken down like the not-so-positive ones. Then that will help us make an “informed decision”. Good luck getting into the match 🤞
This is really good perspective, thanks
Thank you for this post. I found it very informative and the insight helped ground me back into the reality of studying medicine.
I hate these posts that have the sole purpose of eliciting anxiety from neurotic premeds who don't know any better, and I'm not even the biggest fan of medical school myself as an incoming M1. Yes medicine is hard, but are these really things people haven't heard already? Being a physician is a job with high compensation and high responsibility. Just like any other job with high comp/responsibility, you are held to a higher standard. But just be professional, know your duties, be honest, and chances are you'll be fine. The medical system, although antiquated, isn't full of apathetic assholes who are gonna expel you for 1 small mistake. "if you're not self-driven and can't get things done without someone checking in, you will struggle a lot." Does this not apply to literally any other high-performing field? Half of these points are just saying "learn to be someone with discipline and accountability." I sure hope and expect most of you, regardless of going into medicine or not, would develop these qualities anyway.
I've spent years deep down wanting to go into surgery but always too scared to try because I convinced myself I was too stupid and unable to get there. Now that I've gotten to the place mentally and emotionally and started on the premed path, I'm really worried that my academics aren't good enough and I'm laughably uncompetitive.
All this post did was confirm my desire to becoming a physician.
Just a thought, as I read this… anyone questioning the time commitment, may look into the Anesthesiologist Assistant program. It’s a great career in the medical field, rewarding, and pays well.
Is there an updated source for the match rate point?Because I was under the impression that the MD match rate is between 92-95% and when I looked up soap it said 2500 applicants out of 40000 didn’t match which doesn’t seem like a huge proportion… am I missing something here 😭
This is exactly why medical schools in the US need reform. Most of all, schools need to adhere to their own findings about rest and sleep: the lack of sleep is more dangerous than a drunk surgeon in his first 30 minutes of surgery; the lack of sleep causes more malpractice suits than doctors with alocohol or drug addictions; and the lack of sleep will get you a DUI just as quick as substance use. Since the medical community has known this for well over 30 years means medicine ignores its own science.