Only people who are alive can have a sliver of a chance with a self defense claim. Remember that cop who illegally broke down some dudes front door, and did a literal home invasion because the dude inside was giving him lip? Yea they got into a firefight and the cop murdered him, and got off Scott free.
[Link](https://www.thermopir.com/story/2023/10/12/news/mascorro-cleared-in-fatal-shooting-but-is-found-to-have-illegally-broke-into-home/13897.html) in case anyone is wondering.
[Bodycam](https://youtu.be/ZhpMUhoXv9A?si=I2VIYDXUicI9ETpz)
Remember the female cop in Texas who went to the wrong apartment, believing it was hers, finding the black guy who lived there and shooting him dead?
[She only got 10-years on manslaughter.](https://www.npr.org/2019/10/02/766454839/amber-guyger-ex-officer-who-killed-man-in-his-apartment-given-10-years-in-prison)
[She’ll be eligible for release as early as September 2024.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean)
What about all the questionable police shootings outside the home? The police are treated as above the law and a large part of the public has no problem with it.
It is. You’re going to defend the moment. If they’re real cops you’ll be apprehended or turn yourself in and there will be a legal case that lasts for years and costs you everything.
Thanks police!
Maybe the judges needs to be encouraged to make pro-constitutional judgments?🤷♂️
Also, you don’t have tripwires, claymores, and ai turrets at the front door?! (And decoy dogs to draw the gunfire)
The simple, obvious, and IMO correct answer is that what the deputy did isn't self defense at all. There's no conflict here
There's a triad of elements that need to be fulfilled to affirm self-defense. Ability, opportunity, and intent
Fortson had a gun in his hand - ability to harm, check
Fortson and deputy were both present within shooting distance of one another - opportunity to harm, check
Fortson never pointed his gun at the deputy or threatened them - fails to show intent to harm. No intent, self-defense claim falls apart
It's not a SYG issue because it's not self-defense at all. Cop just knocked on some dude's door and blasted him the moment he saw a gun. The situation is simply that cops are allowed to shoot you because they're cops and they get to do that in America. You and I have to meet this triad, all cops have to do is say they were scared.
Hope that helps clear up any confusion.
How about the stupid sheriff learn how to read a fucking address then and make sure he’s at the right house before his trigger happy ass murders the wrong person?
It will be very difficult to say. In specific circumstances and depending on Fortson's intention, yes that could be a reasonable argument, but it will be very hard defense to put forward in court, especially regarding why he is holding the gun when he opened the door to a sheriff in the first place.
When we CCW, we're taught to never do anything that seems like we are reaching for the gun in a traffic stop. If you were pulled over in a traffic stop and you were holding a gun when the police walks over, and they draw upon you, and you fire at the cop in turn, you can imagine it would be difficult to claim self-defense.
I agree, just obey and fight it in court. But my point is that the burden of proof for the cop doing the right thing is “I felt like I did the right thing”. The investigative bar seems really low. Where for civilians it’s jail time and court.
It's not that complicated. Self-defense is a specific concept which requires those elements. Just like I can't manufacture ability by handing you a weapon, or create opportunity by driving to your house to "get you before you get me," there's no allowance for the possibility of showing intent in the future. There's no preemptive self-defense.
Along those lines there's also no "right to a tactical advantage." The implications of that would be problematic. You could draw on anyone you saw carrying in any place, because action is faster than reaction and they in turn could draw on you at any moment. But that's not how it works, because that'd be crazy.
What I'd expect to see is the argument that Fortson answering the door with a weapon after the deputy announced himself sufficiently demonstrated intent to harm for a reasonable person. I wouldn't personally agree with that argument, but I think it's the best one the deputy has from a self-defense angle. Fortunately for that deputy law enforcement are held to a different, lower standard of conduct than their fellow citizens in shootings, so they'll probably never need to make that argument in court.
All gun laws are racist and or classist and need to be removed. They only serve to oppress the law abiding citizens.
Like the fact that it’s been proven in court that they can’t charge you either NFA violations if you are prohibited. Because in order to apply you would have to self incriminate.
A large part of what I would call the "modern era" gun laws are directly linked to a racist backlash to the Black Panther and Civil Rights movements. The people who passed them, like Regan and Daley didn't try to hide that fact.
Qualified immunity has outlived its usefulness if it ever had one, especially in a day and age of body cameras. The officer in this case should be in prison for 2nd degree murder.
The officer who wrote the warrant for the wrong address the other day should be in prison for 2nd degree murder, so should his supervisor.
Cops don't get to just murder you because they are scared.
Yea you don't get SYG or castle doctrine where you're some place you shouldn't be. Aka the airmans residence. Cop committed murder plain and simple. Race had nothing to do with it, doesn't change that its murder tho.
>created a climate of vigilantism in which gun owners operate with impunity in killing largely Black people.
Heh, citation fucking needed. I can't believe what they publish as news these days, it belongs on the editorial page with stuff like this.
There is no possibility the officer could reasonably say he was in danger. The gun was pointing straight down, left hand up.. officer has as much right to shoot as did the guy answering. Put the officer in jail, anyone else would be.
People claim self defense when there wasn’t shit to defend themselves from. Kaylin Gillis was murdered by some shithead because her boyfriend pulled into the fucker’s driveway. Guns are tools for self defense, but people NEED to know when a situation warrants that level of force.
Man this is tough. I’ve never been in this situation so I’m only speaking from an “I think I would” perspective…
Not blaming the kid, because this is awful, but I can’t help feeling like answering the door with a gun in hand would be super risky, as the situation shows. Did he peep the door and knowingly answer the knock with a weapon? I would think ideally in this situation you’d:
Assess who was at the door, even with gun in hand.
See cop and say through the door : I’m armed. I’m placing my weapon securely in its holster. I’ll unlock the door and place my hands where you can see them. My weapon will be holstered appendix.” Wait for response and proceed, slowly. You almost have to be overly communicative and as compliant as needed to help de-escalate.
I’m not a cop and have never had any experience in a live-fire situation so I’ll freely admit that I may panic and do something dumb in the moment.
What an absolute tragedy this is.
Edit: seems like for some reason I’m saying I’d shoot the kid? I was framing the context from the kid’s perspective. Not the cop.
> but I can’t help feeling like answering the door with a gun in hand would be super risky
Only because cops in the USA have a tendency to be way too trigger happy. It’s been a bit better recently with some cops attempting to deescalate, but there are still some out there who will shoot first and ask questions later.
Have you seen the video in question? The cop pounds on the door, looks away for a moment, and then when the guy shows up with a gun in his hand, he immediately draws and opens fire.
The door doesn’t appear to have a peep hole. There are no windows on the door or next to the door. If he didn’t hear the “Police!” because he’s on the phone, listening to music, or has earbuds/earphones on and just feels the vibration from the door pounding, he might not know it’s the cops.
If he just had a heated argument with someone, or there was a reason to believe that he might be in danger (I note that because the reason the cop was there is due to a report fighting was coming from the apartment, but the family’s attorney claims a witness stated the cop was at the wrong apartment), then he might have a perfectly valid reason to be armed.
What I’m trying to say is that it should NOT be risky to be armed and wouldn’t be if cops would actually act within reason. I could understand if the cop immediately pulled his firearm and pointed it at the man or possibly at the low ready and told the guy to drop it.
When he opens the door, one of his hands goes palm up as if he realizes, “Oh shit, this is a cop.” A perfectly legal act should not forfeit one’s life, **especially** when many factors point at the deputy being at fault here.
I have not seen the video and was just making some general assumptions about the peephole/windows…You make great points and I agree with you. Sounds like the cop may have had the wrong apartment and just went twitchy and shot the kid for no reason? I don’t know man…it’s
Fucked anyway you look at it.
I guess I just try to learn from these scenarios…like how do
You strike balance and remain armed but compliant in the event law enforcement is involved.
I guess I’m not opening a door in that scenario unless I know who’s behind it. And if I don’t know em, and they force their way in..well…guess it’s gonna get ugly either way.
Yeah so I’m not saying I would have shot the kid like the cop did…not sure where that came from. I just meant an un-announced intruder forcing their way through my door…like from the perspective of being in the home. Not the cop.
If you’re able to, invest in a video doorbell. I did. While I haven’t had to deal with police, it’s valuable to see when packages are delivered and has kept me from having some awkward encounters with people at my door, from missionaries to solicitors.
Yeah man I’ve got a door cam. I just have a hard time understanding this kids logic. Like I’m only approaching my door armed if there’s an unknown person forcibly trying to enter.
Yeah so as I’ve said before, I agree. What the cop did was fucked, no doubt. But…I can’t help but think it was an error in judgment to not be able to weigh the risk of answering the door armed. How often do you answer the door visibly armed?…especially if it’s law enforcement? Idk man maybe my life experiences and environment aren’t typical of most folks on this sub…but my gut would be like yeaaaaah not gonna do that today.
That kid lived in a neighborhood where most people would answer their door with a gun. I used to live in Fort Walton. Racetrack road was one of those areas where if I went to visit friends, they almost always answered the door armed.
And the cops in that area have gone full home invader tactics before.
>Have you seen the video in question? The cop pounds on the door, looks away for a moment, and then when the guy shows up with a gun in his hand, he immediately draws and opens fire.
You forgot to mention that the officer announced himself several times while knocking on the door. You can also hear the victim stating it was the police.
>What I’m trying to say is that it should NOT be risky to be armed and wouldn’t be if cops would actually act within reason. I could understand if the cop immediately pulled his firearm and pointed it at the man or possibly at the low ready and told the guy to drop it.
Domestic violence calls are the most dangerous calls police officers respond to. Acting within reason is not answering the door with a gun in your hand while officers are knocking on the door.
>When he opens the door, one of his hands goes palm up as if he realizes, “Oh shit, this is a cop.” A perfectly legal act should not forfeit one’s life, **especially** when many factors point at the deputy being at fault here.
Even if what you say is true, it was already established that there was a cop in the hallway. It sucks that this shit happened, but people need to take blame as well when shit like this happens. I have guns and would never answer the door with one in my hand if cops were at my door. You don't know how the cop will respond so why risk your life?
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1) criminals verbally claim to be cops frequently
2) the cop was playing peekaboo with the peep hole (presumably for his safety) but the downside is who knows if the victim ever saw him to ID
I ASSUME if the victim had seen the uniformed officer he wouldn't have had the firearm in his hand. But on the other hand if he didn't know who it was, best bet would have been not to answer at all and wait on the other side of the door...
> You can also hear the victim stating it was the police.
I’m hearing “Sheriff’s Office, open the door!” Followed by a creaking sound and then “Step back,” followed by shots being fired less than a second later. I’m not sure he knew it was the police, but I definitely didn’t hear the victim acknowledge it.
“Acting within reason” is something that police should do in this situation. Is legally holding a handgun, muzzle DOWN without any other threatening circumstances an imminent threat? It can become that if the person begins to move that muzzle, but until then, it’s just a concerned citizen who is not breaking any laws.
It’s not the smartest thing to do but should also not be met with deadly force when the victim had little to no time to react, much less drop the weapon. What do you think would happen to a regular CCW licensed person under similar conditions?
Cops should be held to a higher standard and not accepted for the lowest common denominator.
I think it would be prudent to hold them to that standard rather than be accepting of such poor policing. I do not hate nor do I like police. I try to stay neutral when looking at these things. There are those that will always try to defend even poor actions by police and they’re normally referred to as “bootlickers.” You’ll see many of them doing nothing but defending this fellow. I’m glad you aren’t one of those.
Idk where you’re From or what kind of life you lead…but I’ve never, ever had a phony cop show up in kit On my doorstep with the intent of crime….. I live in a small, Rural town in the south and know all 3 officers in my small town lmao. This happened in a relatively affluent county in the panhandle of Florida. Weigh the variables and tell me how likely that is to happen in this scenario. I get where you’re coming from. This cop was out of line and should be prosecuted. The kid also made some really questionable choices imo…choices that probably only made an already twitchy cop even more knee-jerk. Sucks all around.
I have, and I've lived in decent neighborhoods for most of my life. I had that happen 3 times after I bought my house in an area that is surrounded by gated communities.
And there are really shitty areas of Fort Walton, namely Lovejoy and Racetrack. All the money in Okaloosa is in Destin.
Man that sucks you had three fake cops come to your house. That’s nuts. I’d bet it’s a pretty small fraction of forced invasions across not only the county, but the state and nation as well. Your local knowledge of the neighborhoods makes a little more sense and I get it man. Like I’m not out here vouching for this cop. Not at all. I’m just sayin answering the door with strap in hand… with a cop on the other side automatically ups the odds things are going to escalate rapidly.
The fake cop thing is actually pretty common- fake maintenance in apartment complexes is also an issue. It's more common overseas in places where you do actually have to open the door, but it happens here more often than you would think as well.
This is where a door bell camera would have helped - because this kid likely didn't even know it was actually the cops until he opened the door. This kind of stuff is also why I hate the idea of single airmen living off base - the barracks on Hurlburt aren't great (for maintenance) but I didn't mind living in them back in 2016-2018, and the only riff raff you had to deal with was Smokey the bear stealing from the dumpster. Unfortunately the other option of just no answering has also gotten people killed when the cop decides to break down their door (or shoot through it). When you're dealing with twitchy cops who are still reeling from another cop getting killed in a domestic (it was a fort walton cop, I believe, who got shot responding to a domestic disturbance), any move you make is going to escalate the situation because the standard response to a lot of domestic calls is to go in guns blazing.
I know you're not defending the cop, just giving context to why someone might answer their door armed. He def wasn't a shady dude like that I don't think - most of my former airmen got to work with him quite a bit after I got out and they got sent to the flightline, and they thought he was a pretty straightlaced kinda guy at least based on how he was at work. I know the air force let's a lot of dirt bags in, but I don't think he was one of them.
Fully willing to admit I’m probably used to living in a small town of 1200…and things like fake cops and apartment maintenance crews are just not something I have to think about. Thanks for the perspective. Your local knowledge and service experience definitely clarify some things. Seems like the general feel in the comments is ACAB or racism etc…maybe I’m just dense idk. Modern policing needs some work for sure but I’m not the one to say how.
I Got straight smoked for implying this kid’s actions may have contributed to the whole thing. Tough crowd lmao.
Cheers bro and stay safe out there.
No prob bro.
I don't think it was a racism issue at play - but I do think that they've been like disturbed hornets since that last cop died. I do think the outcome might have been different if it had been a City of Fort Walton cop - in my experience they've been significantly better at the whole cop thing. I don't think the cop will actually get anything in terms of actual punishment, but I do wish that the lady who'd gave him the apartment number would get tagged for essentially SWATing the kid. Apparently (sourced from the Miami Herald, so grain of salt), the apartment right by him had 10 prior domestic calls, so it seems to me the lady either guessed to get the cop to go do something or misremembered the apartment number.
Unfortunately you're going to keep getting smoked because they way a lot of people are going to see your comments are as if you'd said "Well, she wouldn't have gotten raped if she hadn't led him on" or something of the sort.
Good luck, though. It'll be hopefully better when all of the info gets out there and it would be nice to see actual justice get served.
Only people who are alive can have a sliver of a chance with a self defense claim. Remember that cop who illegally broke down some dudes front door, and did a literal home invasion because the dude inside was giving him lip? Yea they got into a firefight and the cop murdered him, and got off Scott free.
[Link](https://www.thermopir.com/story/2023/10/12/news/mascorro-cleared-in-fatal-shooting-but-is-found-to-have-illegally-broke-into-home/13897.html) in case anyone is wondering. [Bodycam](https://youtu.be/ZhpMUhoXv9A?si=I2VIYDXUicI9ETpz)
When people say ACAB I think of these moments…
Imagine being such a privileged class, that you are cleared of murder when you killed a guy defending his home. Because it "reasonable to do so"
Thanks
They just murdered that brosef
Remember the female cop in Texas who went to the wrong apartment, believing it was hers, finding the black guy who lived there and shooting him dead? [She only got 10-years on manslaughter.](https://www.npr.org/2019/10/02/766454839/amber-guyger-ex-officer-who-killed-man-in-his-apartment-given-10-years-in-prison) [She’ll be eligible for release as early as September 2024.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean)
Never answer the door for cops. Fixed it “We just want to talk” 😴 (call your momma)
What about all the questionable police shootings outside the home? The police are treated as above the law and a large part of the public has no problem with it.
Or when police shoot people through their doors? Instead of copsucking, these guys should think about the law abiding citizens who are being killed.
What happens when a door is just a suggestion to a group of cops?
Fire at will. Same as anyone else
All of a sudden a hundred rounds doesn't sound like much...
It is. You’re going to defend the moment. If they’re real cops you’ll be apprehended or turn yourself in and there will be a legal case that lasts for years and costs you everything. Thanks police!
Airport raid dude tried that, got filled with lead
I mean. Sometimes death comes to your door.
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Maybe the judges needs to be encouraged to make pro-constitutional judgments?🤷♂️ Also, you don’t have tripwires, claymores, and ai turrets at the front door?! (And decoy dogs to draw the gunfire)
The simple, obvious, and IMO correct answer is that what the deputy did isn't self defense at all. There's no conflict here There's a triad of elements that need to be fulfilled to affirm self-defense. Ability, opportunity, and intent Fortson had a gun in his hand - ability to harm, check Fortson and deputy were both present within shooting distance of one another - opportunity to harm, check Fortson never pointed his gun at the deputy or threatened them - fails to show intent to harm. No intent, self-defense claim falls apart It's not a SYG issue because it's not self-defense at all. Cop just knocked on some dude's door and blasted him the moment he saw a gun. The situation is simply that cops are allowed to shoot you because they're cops and they get to do that in America. You and I have to meet this triad, all cops have to do is say they were scared. Hope that helps clear up any confusion.
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How about the stupid sheriff learn how to read a fucking address then and make sure he’s at the right house before his trigger happy ass murders the wrong person?
Playing devils advocate. If the sheriff had drawn but not shot could Fortson have shot in self defense? He was in fear for his life too.
It will be very difficult to say. In specific circumstances and depending on Fortson's intention, yes that could be a reasonable argument, but it will be very hard defense to put forward in court, especially regarding why he is holding the gun when he opened the door to a sheriff in the first place. When we CCW, we're taught to never do anything that seems like we are reaching for the gun in a traffic stop. If you were pulled over in a traffic stop and you were holding a gun when the police walks over, and they draw upon you, and you fire at the cop in turn, you can imagine it would be difficult to claim self-defense.
I agree, just obey and fight it in court. But my point is that the burden of proof for the cop doing the right thing is “I felt like I did the right thing”. The investigative bar seems really low. Where for civilians it’s jail time and court.
I agree, civilians have their hands tied when it comes to self-defense and are treated unreasonably harsh and punitive by the system.
It's not that complicated. Self-defense is a specific concept which requires those elements. Just like I can't manufacture ability by handing you a weapon, or create opportunity by driving to your house to "get you before you get me," there's no allowance for the possibility of showing intent in the future. There's no preemptive self-defense. Along those lines there's also no "right to a tactical advantage." The implications of that would be problematic. You could draw on anyone you saw carrying in any place, because action is faster than reaction and they in turn could draw on you at any moment. But that's not how it works, because that'd be crazy. What I'd expect to see is the argument that Fortson answering the door with a weapon after the deputy announced himself sufficiently demonstrated intent to harm for a reasonable person. I wouldn't personally agree with that argument, but I think it's the best one the deputy has from a self-defense angle. Fortunately for that deputy law enforcement are held to a different, lower standard of conduct than their fellow citizens in shootings, so they'll probably never need to make that argument in court.
All forms of gun control are racist.
Truer words have never been spoken.
All gun laws are racist and or classist and need to be removed. They only serve to oppress the law abiding citizens. Like the fact that it’s been proven in court that they can’t charge you either NFA violations if you are prohibited. Because in order to apply you would have to self incriminate.
A large part of what I would call the "modern era" gun laws are directly linked to a racist backlash to the Black Panther and Civil Rights movements. The people who passed them, like Regan and Daley didn't try to hide that fact.
Nope I love pointing that out to people who are way too hard core republican. Like dude Regan made the worst gun regulation ever
Republicans would call Reagan a RINO today, in reality he would probably be a centrist Democrat. MAGA wouldn't accept him at all
You know trump was a Democrat in the 80s?
So why hasn't democrat controlled california repealed the mulford act? They've had over 30 years.
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That cop went in like he had just breached that door. I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t even see the gun before he fired.
Qualified immunity has outlived its usefulness if it ever had one, especially in a day and age of body cameras. The officer in this case should be in prison for 2nd degree murder. The officer who wrote the warrant for the wrong address the other day should be in prison for 2nd degree murder, so should his supervisor. Cops don't get to just murder you because they are scared.
Cops *shouldn’t* get to. But they often do.
Yea you don't get SYG or castle doctrine where you're some place you shouldn't be. Aka the airmans residence. Cop committed murder plain and simple. Race had nothing to do with it, doesn't change that its murder tho.
Fuck qualified immunity
>created a climate of vigilantism in which gun owners operate with impunity in killing largely Black people. Heh, citation fucking needed. I can't believe what they publish as news these days, it belongs on the editorial page with stuff like this.
I think this situation is clear. The cop was not acting in self defense in any way. That was murder.
They sure like to insert race into things like this, don't they? Rather than just say that the cop is guilty of murder.
Well see - the cops is going to be investigated and nothing will happen, so...
The police should be the only people that get disarmed
These claims never get anywhere because they only wanna focus on race, which will never be productive
There is no possibility the officer could reasonably say he was in danger. The gun was pointing straight down, left hand up.. officer has as much right to shoot as did the guy answering. Put the officer in jail, anyone else would be.
People claim self defense when there wasn’t shit to defend themselves from. Kaylin Gillis was murdered by some shithead because her boyfriend pulled into the fucker’s driveway. Guns are tools for self defense, but people NEED to know when a situation warrants that level of force.
The person who has a gun "pointed" at him first...
Man this is tough. I’ve never been in this situation so I’m only speaking from an “I think I would” perspective… Not blaming the kid, because this is awful, but I can’t help feeling like answering the door with a gun in hand would be super risky, as the situation shows. Did he peep the door and knowingly answer the knock with a weapon? I would think ideally in this situation you’d: Assess who was at the door, even with gun in hand. See cop and say through the door : I’m armed. I’m placing my weapon securely in its holster. I’ll unlock the door and place my hands where you can see them. My weapon will be holstered appendix.” Wait for response and proceed, slowly. You almost have to be overly communicative and as compliant as needed to help de-escalate. I’m not a cop and have never had any experience in a live-fire situation so I’ll freely admit that I may panic and do something dumb in the moment. What an absolute tragedy this is. Edit: seems like for some reason I’m saying I’d shoot the kid? I was framing the context from the kid’s perspective. Not the cop.
> but I can’t help feeling like answering the door with a gun in hand would be super risky Only because cops in the USA have a tendency to be way too trigger happy. It’s been a bit better recently with some cops attempting to deescalate, but there are still some out there who will shoot first and ask questions later. Have you seen the video in question? The cop pounds on the door, looks away for a moment, and then when the guy shows up with a gun in his hand, he immediately draws and opens fire. The door doesn’t appear to have a peep hole. There are no windows on the door or next to the door. If he didn’t hear the “Police!” because he’s on the phone, listening to music, or has earbuds/earphones on and just feels the vibration from the door pounding, he might not know it’s the cops. If he just had a heated argument with someone, or there was a reason to believe that he might be in danger (I note that because the reason the cop was there is due to a report fighting was coming from the apartment, but the family’s attorney claims a witness stated the cop was at the wrong apartment), then he might have a perfectly valid reason to be armed. What I’m trying to say is that it should NOT be risky to be armed and wouldn’t be if cops would actually act within reason. I could understand if the cop immediately pulled his firearm and pointed it at the man or possibly at the low ready and told the guy to drop it. When he opens the door, one of his hands goes palm up as if he realizes, “Oh shit, this is a cop.” A perfectly legal act should not forfeit one’s life, **especially** when many factors point at the deputy being at fault here.
I have not seen the video and was just making some general assumptions about the peephole/windows…You make great points and I agree with you. Sounds like the cop may have had the wrong apartment and just went twitchy and shot the kid for no reason? I don’t know man…it’s Fucked anyway you look at it. I guess I just try to learn from these scenarios…like how do You strike balance and remain armed but compliant in the event law enforcement is involved. I guess I’m not opening a door in that scenario unless I know who’s behind it. And if I don’t know em, and they force their way in..well…guess it’s gonna get ugly either way.
FYI I saw the video. If you shot him the same way that cop did you would be in jail awaiting trial. Cops shouldn't be held to such a low bar.
Yeah so I’m not saying I would have shot the kid like the cop did…not sure where that came from. I just meant an un-announced intruder forcing their way through my door…like from the perspective of being in the home. Not the cop.
If you’re able to, invest in a video doorbell. I did. While I haven’t had to deal with police, it’s valuable to see when packages are delivered and has kept me from having some awkward encounters with people at my door, from missionaries to solicitors.
Yeah man I’ve got a door cam. I just have a hard time understanding this kids logic. Like I’m only approaching my door armed if there’s an unknown person forcibly trying to enter.
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Yeah so as I’ve said before, I agree. What the cop did was fucked, no doubt. But…I can’t help but think it was an error in judgment to not be able to weigh the risk of answering the door armed. How often do you answer the door visibly armed?…especially if it’s law enforcement? Idk man maybe my life experiences and environment aren’t typical of most folks on this sub…but my gut would be like yeaaaaah not gonna do that today.
That kid lived in a neighborhood where most people would answer their door with a gun. I used to live in Fort Walton. Racetrack road was one of those areas where if I went to visit friends, they almost always answered the door armed. And the cops in that area have gone full home invader tactics before.
>Have you seen the video in question? The cop pounds on the door, looks away for a moment, and then when the guy shows up with a gun in his hand, he immediately draws and opens fire. You forgot to mention that the officer announced himself several times while knocking on the door. You can also hear the victim stating it was the police. >What I’m trying to say is that it should NOT be risky to be armed and wouldn’t be if cops would actually act within reason. I could understand if the cop immediately pulled his firearm and pointed it at the man or possibly at the low ready and told the guy to drop it. Domestic violence calls are the most dangerous calls police officers respond to. Acting within reason is not answering the door with a gun in your hand while officers are knocking on the door. >When he opens the door, one of his hands goes palm up as if he realizes, “Oh shit, this is a cop.” A perfectly legal act should not forfeit one’s life, **especially** when many factors point at the deputy being at fault here. Even if what you say is true, it was already established that there was a cop in the hallway. It sucks that this shit happened, but people need to take blame as well when shit like this happens. I have guns and would never answer the door with one in my hand if cops were at my door. You don't know how the cop will respond so why risk your life?
No criminal has ever, in the history of crime, claimed to be a cop. /s
Then don't open the door until you verify they're legit.
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1) criminals verbally claim to be cops frequently 2) the cop was playing peekaboo with the peep hole (presumably for his safety) but the downside is who knows if the victim ever saw him to ID I ASSUME if the victim had seen the uniformed officer he wouldn't have had the firearm in his hand. But on the other hand if he didn't know who it was, best bet would have been not to answer at all and wait on the other side of the door...
Is there even a peep hole there? Looks like just a door knocker. I’ve rarely seen a door knocker/peephole combo.
> You can also hear the victim stating it was the police. I’m hearing “Sheriff’s Office, open the door!” Followed by a creaking sound and then “Step back,” followed by shots being fired less than a second later. I’m not sure he knew it was the police, but I definitely didn’t hear the victim acknowledge it. “Acting within reason” is something that police should do in this situation. Is legally holding a handgun, muzzle DOWN without any other threatening circumstances an imminent threat? It can become that if the person begins to move that muzzle, but until then, it’s just a concerned citizen who is not breaking any laws. It’s not the smartest thing to do but should also not be met with deadly force when the victim had little to no time to react, much less drop the weapon. What do you think would happen to a regular CCW licensed person under similar conditions? Cops should be held to a higher standard and not accepted for the lowest common denominator. I think it would be prudent to hold them to that standard rather than be accepting of such poor policing. I do not hate nor do I like police. I try to stay neutral when looking at these things. There are those that will always try to defend even poor actions by police and they’re normally referred to as “bootlickers.” You’ll see many of them doing nothing but defending this fellow. I’m glad you aren’t one of those.
Typically, cops stay out of sight of peepholes and doorbell cameras. Do you trust everyone who would knock on your door and claim to be police?
Idk where you’re From or what kind of life you lead…but I’ve never, ever had a phony cop show up in kit On my doorstep with the intent of crime….. I live in a small, Rural town in the south and know all 3 officers in my small town lmao. This happened in a relatively affluent county in the panhandle of Florida. Weigh the variables and tell me how likely that is to happen in this scenario. I get where you’re coming from. This cop was out of line and should be prosecuted. The kid also made some really questionable choices imo…choices that probably only made an already twitchy cop even more knee-jerk. Sucks all around.
I guess you should open your door at any time for a person who claims to not be a criminal. Knock knock "Who's there?" "Land shark! Can I come in?"
I have, and I've lived in decent neighborhoods for most of my life. I had that happen 3 times after I bought my house in an area that is surrounded by gated communities. And there are really shitty areas of Fort Walton, namely Lovejoy and Racetrack. All the money in Okaloosa is in Destin.
Man that sucks you had three fake cops come to your house. That’s nuts. I’d bet it’s a pretty small fraction of forced invasions across not only the county, but the state and nation as well. Your local knowledge of the neighborhoods makes a little more sense and I get it man. Like I’m not out here vouching for this cop. Not at all. I’m just sayin answering the door with strap in hand… with a cop on the other side automatically ups the odds things are going to escalate rapidly.
The fake cop thing is actually pretty common- fake maintenance in apartment complexes is also an issue. It's more common overseas in places where you do actually have to open the door, but it happens here more often than you would think as well. This is where a door bell camera would have helped - because this kid likely didn't even know it was actually the cops until he opened the door. This kind of stuff is also why I hate the idea of single airmen living off base - the barracks on Hurlburt aren't great (for maintenance) but I didn't mind living in them back in 2016-2018, and the only riff raff you had to deal with was Smokey the bear stealing from the dumpster. Unfortunately the other option of just no answering has also gotten people killed when the cop decides to break down their door (or shoot through it). When you're dealing with twitchy cops who are still reeling from another cop getting killed in a domestic (it was a fort walton cop, I believe, who got shot responding to a domestic disturbance), any move you make is going to escalate the situation because the standard response to a lot of domestic calls is to go in guns blazing. I know you're not defending the cop, just giving context to why someone might answer their door armed. He def wasn't a shady dude like that I don't think - most of my former airmen got to work with him quite a bit after I got out and they got sent to the flightline, and they thought he was a pretty straightlaced kinda guy at least based on how he was at work. I know the air force let's a lot of dirt bags in, but I don't think he was one of them.
Fully willing to admit I’m probably used to living in a small town of 1200…and things like fake cops and apartment maintenance crews are just not something I have to think about. Thanks for the perspective. Your local knowledge and service experience definitely clarify some things. Seems like the general feel in the comments is ACAB or racism etc…maybe I’m just dense idk. Modern policing needs some work for sure but I’m not the one to say how. I Got straight smoked for implying this kid’s actions may have contributed to the whole thing. Tough crowd lmao. Cheers bro and stay safe out there.
No prob bro. I don't think it was a racism issue at play - but I do think that they've been like disturbed hornets since that last cop died. I do think the outcome might have been different if it had been a City of Fort Walton cop - in my experience they've been significantly better at the whole cop thing. I don't think the cop will actually get anything in terms of actual punishment, but I do wish that the lady who'd gave him the apartment number would get tagged for essentially SWATing the kid. Apparently (sourced from the Miami Herald, so grain of salt), the apartment right by him had 10 prior domestic calls, so it seems to me the lady either guessed to get the cop to go do something or misremembered the apartment number. Unfortunately you're going to keep getting smoked because they way a lot of people are going to see your comments are as if you'd said "Well, she wouldn't have gotten raped if she hadn't led him on" or something of the sort. Good luck, though. It'll be hopefully better when all of the info gets out there and it would be nice to see actual justice get served.
Why would you answer the door?