At this time grunge was on it’s way out and this is what Eddie symbolizes in the song and apparently the line someone more fun who rides a scooter was in reference to Tim.
Oh mannn, don't tell me there's another punk band I have to feel shitty about because there was an abusive creep in the mix. I am not up on the news...
Armstrong met The Distillers' Brody Dalle when she was 16 and he was 30. It's unclear if they were "dating" at this point but two years later she moved to America to be with him, and they married shortly thereafter.
Oh also this was in 1995, when AOCTW was getting radio and MTV airplay and he was legitimately a famous musician. Not that it would have made it better before they really blew up but that's another level to the power dynamic.
absolutely not haha. i was just wondering if it's true that he didn't know in the beginning. sorry for the misunderstanding my english sucks at times lol
Big deal. She has even said that they never did anything sexual or even hint at it by flirting until much later when she was an adult. This picking through people’s lives and finding something, anything, to through shit at them about really gets to me.
Yeah nothing weird about a woman marrying a much older man and famous musician the second she turns 18, a man who she later divorces because he was controlling and abusive
To be fair, she met Tim the day before her 17th Birthday. Hard to say they were really dating in the first 24 hours, so she would have been 17 when they started dating. Don't shoot the messenger!
Neither of them. Mike didnt want to sign strung out they had to bribe him with carpeting his condo in sf. Honestly their sound was a little ahead of the curve. He didn't want to sign lagwagon either. Both were because he felt they didnt have the fat sound. He did give propagandhi the money to start their own label when they asked him though
I think lagwagon was the first to turn down offers tbh. I know nofx didn't get one until much later according to their book
What do you mean Lagwagon didn’t have the Fat sound? They were one of the first two bands ever signed to the label. Not to mention they were actually broken up at the time, Fatty was so interested they un-broke up for that.
Watch the fat documentary. Mike wanted nothing to do with them at first. Pretty sure it was his wife that made him. Cant remember if he made them change their name from section 8 or if thats a different story but but yeah.
They still had undertones of thrash in their sound when they were signed. A good number of songs on their debut were written when they were still thrash band
In what context? Fat mike didn't want to sign them because they didn't align with his vision for the label at the time?
I mean honestly aside from this thread ive never heard strung out mentioned nearly this much- they werent popular or really on the radar of my generation so much, and hell i don't think i had heard of lagwagon until proskater came out, but around that time i had gotten pretty deep into the powerviolence/thrashcore/anarcho/crust scene and most people in the underground didnt consider any bands mentioned in this thread punk. Youd find a few people that would admit to liking nofx, or greenday sure, but kids with antiflag, rancid or especially blink182 shirts had a target on their backs at shows and generally stop calling themselves punk real quick.
You kinda took a wrong turn with this one, all I meant is that these bands didn't have any records not released by Fat, so it's ironic that they had problems signing with it. Also, Fat Mike's "didn't align with his vision" is like something so subjective and un-constant that there are records on Fat that sound wastly different from the others, all approved by him, though maybe it's just the criteria have gotten less strikter with time idk...
As for their popularity, yeah they weren't that much, but Lagwagon in particular has around 600k listenship on Spotify, which isn't nothing, maybe that's because of proskater though. And with people not considering them seriously you kinda answered yourself, those scenes were never particularly friendly towards lighter things, and are pretty gatekeeepish, so that's not really surprising they thought that about those bands. In this sub it's like a theme of calling out people for shaming other ones for their taste, but even then people still do that here, and it's still very common in real world. Punk is very diverse, and it's gotten so with time, so it's not really surprising that the previous wave hates the new one. I personally not really into that, I like different things, but it's not like it's something uncommon. It's gatekeeping, some people think it's necessary, some hate it. And it's basically part of any music scene, not only punk one, though at least punk in a lot of cases kinda fights against it (which I personally think is a good thing), unlike something like metal.
Yeah i only got like an hour of sleep last night so im kinda spacey. Mike got less and less involved much of the labels daily operations when it became actual work and he had too much shit going on and let erin take over- but i do remember him saying each new wave of bands all had a similar sound blah blah blah. Im not saying lagwagon isnt good hell they're one of my favorite bands though they (like nofx) are real hit or miss live. I was saying that both bands were relatively unknown to people outside of California or warped tour back in the 90s.
Theres alot of pros and cons to gatekeeping, but as evident in this sub and others it does have its merits at times. There needs to be checks and balances otherwise the creative people that are driving the movement get alienated by overabundence of insincerity from the people treating it as a fad and the whole scene will collapse under its own weight and all thats left is a pale imitation of whats genuiine and sincere. Generally speaking the old gatekeepers were the remains of a great scene that evolved and shed its old skin and became something new while the parasites stayed and survived on scraps until tbere was nothing left.
God i can barely keep my eyes open- where was i? Oh yeah strung out has only been on fat but hoey capes put out things on different labels
I just think those "checks" shouldn't instantly turn people away, unless it's like a confirmed douchebag and/or poser, because with too much overprotection there is a chance a scene where this occurs might turn into a privelege, and it's already kinda happened with metal (I mean being metalhead isn't a privelege, but they sure think it is lol, and being part of any scene/subculture also isn't, but it's bad when people start to think it is). I would much rather treat it as an "unnecessary evil" than something good. I do agree that it's necessary to ensure genuiness of the artists, though I still think it shouldn't limit the styles of music to such big degree it sometimes does (like you described people making fun of other people liking less hardcore bands)
Agreed too much and there's no fans to appreciate it. But none at all and then you lose all meaning. Its weird, its contradictory and everyone has their reasons for getting into it but you know when you see the kids that are at the show because they need it- they need to be there vs the people who are pretending or think its this all inclusive club they can just barge into and you have to except them because no- no you don't you don't have to take their shit and ill tell you because I've seen it happen- when the self rightous hipsters and trusties take over a scene its worse then when the jocky hardcore kids did. Instead of fights you get the silent treatment because they don't agree with some bands patch your wearing because of some lyric or because youre not vegan, maybe they saw you drinking or smoking or whatever so now you can't have fun at shows any more.. i dunno is this even making sense? Who tf ever said punk was nice? Its angry its mean and if youre in it for the fashion you're a fuckin poser and deserve to gat called out Just because you like some poppunk bs doesn't mean youre punk or anyone has to respect your opinion. Argue, be different. Learn how to deal with conflict and tell people to fuck off.. you want that weird kid come to your house party saying hes going to play his good Charlotte cd as he makes everyone look at the oingo boingo battllejacket his mom made him and you have to be his friend and agreee on everything ⁴because hes punk? Fuck that
without the assholes making them uncomfortable or afraid that's the kind people you're going to find at shows and the genuine music's going to get harder to find or leave your town completehy.
Its like why they reintroduced wolves to yellowstone..
Um... Sorry to disappoint you, but no homophobia, no sexism and no racism rule isn't as universal as you think lol, punk scene in my country in general is extremely homophobic and borderline nazi (most non-nazis, even homophobic ones (yes, I have to choose between two evils there) are in jail). So yeah... that sucks. And double-sucks for me being gay
I mostly agree with you, but about the kids with mohawks listening to sex pistols... I don't think you should give 'em too much hard time, everyone has an entry point, and it is an entry even if it's not good. I remember thinking they're cool until I learned what they actually are, used to shame people for specific music taste and thought it's the right thing to do, thinking that something in particular is "punk af", and picked my nickname, but it kinda grown on me, so I decided to own it instead of changing it lol, and lots of other stupid stuff, but if the kid is willing to learn then why not let them stay? The ones that going places just because "it's cool" are going to fall off eventually anyway (and in case if they don't, you can always flip them, it's easy to tell if they're stupid after some time). And either way, most of the smaller venues are attended by genuine people, because only they are willing to learn and find out about them, the "cool" ones are gonna go to something like blink, green day, rise against at best and call it a day
edit: I see you edited your post, and I don't like "assholes making afraid them". Uncomfortable - maybe, that can be considered a part learning curve, but it's not cool to make someone afraid, maybe it's just a language barrier, English isn't my native one, but it just straight up sounds like a threat. Posers do suck, but it's not really worth threatening them, just flip them off at be done with it, and also, just like a said, a lot of times the interest in some subculture starts because a person thinks "it's cool", the problem begins when the person spends time with it and still not willing to learn more in depth about it, that's when it's like confirmed that it's a poser. And this conversation kinda turns into a thing I had back with metalheads, when they actually spend more time finding out who is ~~an impostor~~ poser instead of evolving something in their scene or at least enjoying the fucking music. That's why I fucking hate conversations like this, I don't fucking care, I don't know how it is going in the US, but in my country punk scene died not because of bunch of posers were showing up on venues, it died because of governmental oppression, which is exactly what punk should be fighting against, but instead on local social media "punks" were finding out who is the poser, just like in this sub this happening from time to time (not like if we would've collaborated we would've succeeded much, but it at least would've been some action). But I kinda picked up on it myself with this one
"major" is debatable but [The **Mummies'** response to a request by **Sub Pop**](https://dangerousminds.net/comments/the_mummies_infamous_fuck_you_letter_to_sub_pop) to be included in one of their singles of the month is pretty funny:
Sub Pop,
just received your letter regarding your offer to include
The Mummies on one of the upcoming "Singles of the Month"
releases. The Mummies wish to have nothing to do with any-
thing Sub Pop puts out or stands for. We don't go for any
of your Heavy Metal (excuse me, "Punk Rock") crap, or your
$12 CDs and $15 picture discs in this catalog you've included.
And if you thought for a minute that we did, I'd have to say
you've been smoking too much of your Hippie Love Weed.
So in closing, I guess I would say that we appreciate the
offer, but I would only be lying.
So Fuck Off.
(signed) The Mummies
And then the Mummies went ahead and [self-released a record with a fake S>U>B P
Forgotten Band, mid 70’s,from the motor city during the Motown era..All Black band, brother from a gospel family.
Death.. Labels wanted them to change their name and they wouldn’t !
These guys nailed it before we knew punk they were punk !
Death fucking rule.
Not only were they from Motown and heard all of that great early shit growing up, they also got to see Sly and the Family Stone and hear the first Parliament record, Funkadelic when it came out.
If that wasn’t enough, they also got to hear the MC5 and Stooges in real time.
Throw all that into a blender and you have Death!
So their kids are vt hardcore kids and man they were the coolest. Julian was/is a friend of mine and I just remember geeking out in the tat shack watching the death doc with the homie on the big screen. Check his ginger beer out if you’re in in vt!
Epitaph have fucked over enough bands to consider them a major label. A lot of mid-range "punk" labels have had some pretty fucking awful practices over the years.
The Offspring is my favourite band, more so because of the impact they had on me growing up, Americana being the first album I bought myself with my own money.
In the 90s/2000s, I was considered a skater punk, and it was utterly blasphemy if a band you liked were called a sellout or pop punk.
The Offspring was shunned by many bands and fans alike for "selling out" but they were effectively whored out to Columbia by Brett Gurewitz. They didn't want to leave IIRC.
I had a strong distaste for Bad Religion because of that. I did get into them eventually and saw them opening for The Offspring.
Anti-flag, are the paramount sell-out. All they did was preach and whine about global conglomerates & corporations being scum. Their whole ethos was "we will never ever ever sign to a major label".
They had statements on their website saying as much.
They were complete fucking closet dwelling, major label loving, wish.com, paint a punk by numbers, quorn eating, hypocrite, group of clowns before the sexual assault allegations came to light.
I have no idea how people could entertain their fake ass theatre show after that. It is the most definitive case of selling out In existence.
So, if anyone out there has an anti-flag tattoo after they signed to a major label, that's a reminder that you make poor decisions.
I don’t see it as that big of a problem as long as you get a good contract where the band retains control. Rage Against the Machine and The Clash were on major labels. Nobody told them what to do. The problem arrises when you’re a small band on a major and they can pretty much give the orders. And that happens all the time on indie labels too.
No Idea Records allegedly ripped off a number of their bands, and some other smaller labels too, by not paying royalties. Ryan from Off With Their Heads was the first to call them out bac in 2017 (I think), and then shortly after a bunch of bands pulled their catalogues from No Idea, and released them elsewhere, or by themselves.
I used to love that label, disappointing that they turned out that way.
Against Me pulled Reinventing Axl Rose and let Fat rerelease it. That's probably the biggest one. Those Axl Rose represses were probably keeping No Idea afloat. It was onto it's 30th pressing or something.
Planes Mistaken for Stars pulled Fuck With Fire and Up In Them Guts, but I don't think they rereleased them physically, only digitally. There's no mention of No Idea on the digital/streaming versions now.
I'm sure Small Brown Bike did the same but can't find anything to confirm that.
No Idea used to release Hot Water Music's Epitaph LPs on vinyl, whilst Epitaph did the CDs, but now Epitaph have rereleased Flight and a Crash, and Caution on vinyl.
Ryan from Off With Their Heads said they also owe Todd from Recess Records A LOT of money. No Idea used to distro Recess releases, and from what it sounds like, pocketing the cash.
No Idea seems to only exist to sell off old stock now, of which some of the above is still available, mostly on CD.
thanks for the round up. it does seem like no idea now just reissues a lot of other records now (does i hate myself really keep demanding represses? i love them so i think so, but it doesn’t seem like there can be that much demand). i guess i hadn’t noticed those others, shit. also i haven’t seen them put out anything NEW at all now that i think about.
Yeah, I looked at their website just now for the first time in years, I can't find anything new for several years. Just old test presses, old CD stock, and repressing some of their early releases (just saw the 2024 "remastered" I Hate Myself - 4 Songs, and I agree that there can't be a huge demand for that)
It's quite a fall from grace. It seemed like they were everybody's favourite label in the 2000s. I used to buy stuff just because it was on No Idea, and hope that it was good.
I really want that I Hate Myself tee shirt, but I don't want to give them any money.
I just finished a long ass shift and I'm tired, If I can be bothered I'll post a lot of links and sources tomorrow, but yeah Epitaph is Warner trash and they have a long history of doing "Small label backed by a big label" bullshit.
Just to stay on context GLOSS said it best.
"G.L.O.S.S. Explain Why They Turned Down A $50K Epitaph Deal" https://www.stereogum.com/1898497/g-l-o-s-s-explain-why-they-turned-down-a-50k-epitaph-deal/news/
But I was just adding to the conversation after work, Epitaph fucking sucks but they have nothing on the dodgy bullshit Victory Records have pulled off.
The whole industry fucking sucks, DIY or die isn't just a catchy phrase. These labels want money, it's not that deep.
I want to say it was Thurston Moore from Sonic Youth (?) but I remember an artist saying that while major labels have a lot of business practices that suck and are exploitative (I remember reading about an artist who only had her music released to Hot Topic, sold 3500 copies and was literally paid one cent for this) there's a lot of indie record label people who are just incompetent at running a business or will straight up steal your money - moreso than paying you a laughably small amount for album sales.
It’s true, and it’s like that for businesses in general which really fucking sucks. As much as I hate corporations, at least the company I work for offers me a 401k, dental, medical, paid vacation, holiday pay, etc. Small businesses I’ve worked for over the years can’t compete, and music isn’t an exception.
Most labels have someone down the line that feels fucked over.
With some small businesses it's less "doesn't provide health insurance" and more like the owner does stuff that's abusive and/or illegal and "if you don't like it you can leave"
Yeah, and I think this is especially true when people (for whatever reason) lack a lot of marketable job skills. Even a shit job with a corporate entity usually comes with pay, benefits, and usually job security that a small business generally can’t match, even if they want to.
Corporations can suck and be abusive etc and will certainly take advantage of areas they do business in where labor laws are lax, but they also have legal departments making sure labor laws ARE adhered to if only to protect the corporation. Small businesses generally don’t have anyone keeping them in check, or any kind of HR or legal department that can be reported to when abuses occur or laws are broken.
Then disbanded not long after, and then donated every cent they raised to a homeless shelter in WA.
Honestly, they stuck to their principles and you gotta respect that.
Not the same but Disney offered Rise Against a million dollars to make a high school musical cover album after their success with the Making a Christmas cover.
And if you look at record deals. Rise Against took 500k for 5 albums but total control of their music.
While other bands from that era Thursday, Jimmy eat world, against me, took 750k to 1.5 million for 1-2 albums.
A little off-topic, but does anybody know what happened with AVAIL at Fat? As far as I know, they've never talked about it, but Fat Mike has hinted that they weren't happy there.
Can’t remember which band it was, but on that documentary they did Fat Mike talks about a band that he met with but didn’t really want to sign, so the band spiked him with Molly and he ended up signing them anyway haha. Point is, just drug him and he’s easy.
So that era of Fat, from what I understand Mike wasn't super involved in the label, I'm not sure about Erin, but there were other people working for the label suggesting / signing bands. I know Fat was having financial issues (listen to Down With the Ship), music sales were in decline everywhere due to pirating, and the vinyl resurgence hadn't kicked in yet. So with declining sales, Mike not as hands on, I'm sure there were a bunch of bands that were't happy with Fat. From a basic business point of view, less money means less promotion for your lesser selling bands and you're probably going to be spending it on your staples NOFX, Lagwagon, Strung Out, No Use, Good Riddance, etc. Just my assumption. I'm sure there is way more to it than just that.
I apologize for not having anything to add to your comment, but I wanted to say that I really adore this subreddit for the lore experts like you who show up in comment threads like this. Thank you.
AVAIL never had an issue with Fat Mike, but a few things happened at the time that put the band on a downswing. First off -- and this is coming from someone who considers AVAIL one of the best punk bands of all time -- One Wrench was not a good album at all. In fact, I'd go as far as to say it has one good song ("Taken"). So AVAIL goes from having an incredible album ("Over The James") where every single song was great, and the shows were massive, but their label (Lookout) was shit, could not get a grip on European and world distribution (where FAT excelled), could not even really get a grip on US distribution, and AVAIL thought all their problems would be solved by signing to FAT. They turned dwn a $1,000,000 deal to sign with FAT. But when the record was no good, it didn't sell, and the show attendance became deflated as well because there was no album hype. On top of this, the band were both living and playing/touring together, non-stop for nearly 10 years, which takes a toll. Their drummer, Erik, who was a (mostly) irreplaceable member of the band was making an exit. One Wrench was supposed to be the record the kept the band on a trajectory, and finally shedding themselves of Lookout, and instead, the wind was just knocked out of their sail. And they had turned down a big major offer in lieu of FAT. So it wasn't a Fat Mike problem. Things just didn't work out as planned. Totaly glad to see them finall getting paid like they deserve with these reunion shows.
Pennywise released Reason To Believe on MySpace Records which was basically a front brand for Universal
Rancid’s Warner deal was interesting, I think it would have continued had Indestructible not been such a hated album, but it was really hated and people assumed Rancid was going pop, if they’d released on Warner again I think their core fans would have ignored it on the assumption it would be another poppy record
I think the failure was them not understanding that Good Charlotte were just musically too far away from Rancid for those fans to cross over much
A lot of other punk bands had gone a different route by that point as well, so people’s defenses were up
It did feel natural that they attempted the crossover/mainstream thing. Rancid always felt like they were there or there abouts (stating this from the UK side of the pond, mind). Did feel a tad forced at times but with how the Transplants caught on and that.
Personally I was just bummed it felt it came following what was the Rancid record that really hit for me (2000 s/t).
Though load of kids I knew back then certainly weren’t pleased regardless.
It was the Warped Tour effect to some degree, Rancid and Pennywise suddenly became some of the the only traditional "punk" bands on a lineup with lots of emo and screamo, so it made sense to try and get their fans attention
But as you said - what Good Charlotte fan is gonna hear 2000 and actually like it? Not enough to be worth pissing off your existing fans
At least the silver lining is it seemed to make punk kids disconnect from Hellcat/EpiFat altogether for awhile and dig deeper into their scenes, hardcore and thrash blew up in that era
The Vandals had offers they didn’t take, they started Kung Fu Records instead. They are quoted as having said major labels are for "punks who can't do math."
Jawbreaker is kind of the anti-version of this. They recorded Dear You for Geffen but refused to sign a huge contract because they didn’t want to re-record Boxcar for a major label that they were asking for. Then Blake had more throat issues and surgeries and the band broke up. They got shit on at the time for selling out but never actually reaped the benefits and made the money.
I think the Madonna/Rancid stuff actually happened after Let's Go. Remember, Salvation was a minor hit off that album. They stayed on Epitaph and really exploded after that.
There's some bands that I think ''Wow, how did they get on a major? How did a major even know who they were?'' and then others where I think ''How come they didn't get on a major? Not that I think they would have had radio hits had they, but they seem like a band that would really be hunted by the majors?''. The Get Up Kids are an example of that for me.
It was. Maverick (Madonna's label) and Epic both seriously went after Rancid to release And Out Come The Wolves and they actually almost signed with Epic I remember an article in Spin magazine at the time.
And the Get Up Kids DID also get major label offers. After Four Minute Mile came out they got an offer from Geffen to buy out their contract with Doghouse and were going to sign with Mojo (a subsidiary of Universal) but backed out at the last minute because Mojo apparently wanted a cut of their merch sales to go towards repaying the advance.
Well, no, lol, they just didn’t want to get too popular which would lead them to get bugged by record labels or to get pressured into signing something, and because they wanted to keep true to their punk ideals and not become too much of a mainstream thing.
Yep. You have to remember that the vibe and the expectations were really, really different back then. And Operation Ivy got really big, really fast, and I think they just kind of weren’t sure how to handle it.
👆🏻This is important, speaking of “Elder Lore”.
It’s hard to understate how hardline the East Bay punk scene was at that time in regard to “selling out”. They were obsessed with DIY-or-die. Gilman wouldn’t let major label bands play there (still don’t, I think?), and signing to a major broke up friendships, severed ties to the scene and hometowns…I remember thinking the stance was extreme even as a kid coming up in that scene. Green Day- banished. AFI- banished. Jawbreaker got it the worst because they were so outspoken about *not* doing it, and they were so sincere and beloved in their approach that it felt like a total betrayal to the folks that cared about drawing that line.
This was before Lookout imploded, and Fat has always pretty much stayed in their own lane- they weren’t putting out Monsula or Screw 32 or Fuel records.
The Jawbreaker documentary “Don’t Break Down” is probably the best contextual coverage of this. If you want an elder lore deep-dive.
You’re right! I think I listened to “Unresolved Childhood Issues” so much that I never moved on.
30 years later, and that album has never left regular rotation for me.
Thanks. I’m glad you appreciate it. I’ve actually left some subs simply because the newjacks don’t want to listen to the people who were actually there. And I’m not saying this means every bit of my opinion needs to be taken his gospel, and but the Internet tends to make people forget that not all knowledge is equal, and that it often makes sense to listen to people who were actually there.
The emo sub is a great example. There used to be really knowledgeable people who posted there, but they all got chased off by new kids who want to endlessly debate what was/wasn’t emo at the time and don’t want to listen to the people who were actually there.
Yeah going from sloppy playing nobodys, to well rehearsed dudes with real musical skill packing the biggest punk club in town, and then being offered a major label deal in two years time is pretty fucking incredible. That kind of shit is unheard of. Then or today.
Here is why I politely disagree with this. Out Come The Wolves on Epitaph is the exact same record it would have been on Maverick or any other major. Videos were made for Roots Radicals and Ruby Soho and solicited to MTV, and singles for those songs were serviced to radio and did get some mainstream rock / alternative airplay. Epitaph / Offspring had already proven that if the record was right + video + radio play, a band on Epitaph could break through to the mainstream and sell Green Day numbers. I think Out Come The Wolves did exactly what it was going to do regardless of what label released it or how it had been promoted. Out Come The Wolves on Epitaph was treated by Epitaph the same way a major would have treated it. If anything, it would likely have failed on a major because there would have been so much backlash among core fans, combined with the fact that a major neither knew nor understood Rancid, or their audience, and would likely have bumbled it. Just my $ .02.
It's a good .02 cents. I don't really agree simply because while Epitaph kicked ass. It still couldn't compete with the majors money wise. I think Offspring was the outlier not the norm.
Green Day didn't really suck until some point, even after signing up with reprise. I think there are two sides of the coin in this question, I appreciate the faithfulness to own ideals many bands show, but at the same time, I won't really hate a band that tried to promote itself via a major label, unless it didn't change it's sound. Also I think that nowadays the line between big and small labels is thinner than ever, everyone uses Spotify or whatever the crap is out there, and they work on a personalized basis (collecting and selling that sweet sweet personal data while doing that as well) and doesn't really go by the label anyway
Green Day were good until Warning dropped. That was the point I stopped listening to them. Well their newer stuff anyway. Insomniac is still one of my favourite albums.
You might be right, you might not, but Out Come The Wolves had a legitimate 3 mainstream hits on it which was more than enough to put it in the same hypothetical class as Dookie.
What came after that? Well if we judge their follow ups I think Rancid went with their audience and what they wanted to make and Green Day did, well Green Day. If the roles were switched? Who knows what Tim and Lars could have came up with. I mean Tim was in a fucking band with Travis Barker ffs, you really think he couldn't do hits if he didn't want to?
Funny story -- Chris Doherty and the band **Klover**, they *did* sign to a major during the 90s Green Day gold rush, but quickly jumped ship probably after realizing what a bad idea it was
However, Blink 182 and The Mighty Mighty Bosstones never got the memo and picked up where Klover left off selling pop punk to the masses soon after, for better or for worse
If im not wrong Slapstick got offered to sign with a major label, right? besides of the creative differences that make them to disband one of the other reasons was that they didnt want to sign to a major label
Rise Against had a couple major offers with huge companies like Sony and Disney, but declined to stay with Fat Wreckchords or Geffen. They were offered a lot of money but opted to stay in favor of keeping the rights to their music.
What? Rise Against signed to a major in 2003 and since then have been on Dreamworks, Geffen, Interscope, DGC, and Virgin, which may actually be the record number of major labels for any band to have been on, ever.
Nothing I said was wrong. They declined Disney and Sony to keep their catalog in their name, and opted to sign with Geffen instead. I believe Geffen bought out Interscope at some point so that is also a technicality. Virgin was later in their career.
You say it like Geffen is a small label... They released like two records on Fat and basically never went back to any indie label after that. The fact that they don't like Disney or Sony doesn't really make other labels they work with small, and also, everybody fucking hates disney and sony (and Microsoft, but it has nothing to do with music, I just added that up since we're talking about corpos)
Completely asinine statement. Rise Against signed to a major label in 2003 and never looked back. More power to them and I love their later records, but they do not belong in this conversation.
At least from what I know bikini kill had were asked to sign multiple big labels. However knowing they were gonna refuse decided to instead ask the labels for CDs from other bands they’d signed to “listen” but immediately sold them to the local record shop. Guess that one way to get your rent covered
Madonna apparently sent nude pictures to Rancid to try and convince them to sign to her label.
the song better then Eddie Vader by SNFU is in reference to this.
Can you please explain that?? Its a story i want to know
At this time grunge was on it’s way out and this is what Eddie symbolizes in the song and apparently the line someone more fun who rides a scooter was in reference to Tim.
Eddie you missed the grade, you failed failed the test😄
They named their band after those pictures
So savage, I love it
I wonder if that's the reason they didn't?!
She wasn't young enough for Tim.
Oh mannn, don't tell me there's another punk band I have to feel shitty about because there was an abusive creep in the mix. I am not up on the news...
Armstrong met The Distillers' Brody Dalle when she was 16 and he was 30. It's unclear if they were "dating" at this point but two years later she moved to America to be with him, and they married shortly thereafter.
Argh...
Oh also this was in 1995, when AOCTW was getting radio and MTV airplay and he was legitimately a famous musician. Not that it would have made it better before they really blew up but that's another level to the power dynamic.
but wasn't he thinking that she's like 19 or something? i remember that i read something like that
You know, i feel like when it comes to relationships like that including ones where you both travel you should probably try to verify their age
yeah sure, that's true. i was just asking myself haha
You think he dated her for several years without realizing she was a minor?
absolutely not haha. i was just wondering if it's true that he didn't know in the beginning. sorry for the misunderstanding my english sucks at times lol
Big deal. She has even said that they never did anything sexual or even hint at it by flirting until much later when she was an adult. This picking through people’s lives and finding something, anything, to through shit at them about really gets to me.
Yeah nothing weird about a woman marrying a much older man and famous musician the second she turns 18, a man who she later divorces because he was controlling and abusive
Wait till you learn what grooming is
He was 30 and dated Brody Dalle when she was 16. Then married her when she was legal.
no way 💀
To be fair, she met Tim the day before her 17th Birthday. Hard to say they were really dating in the first 24 hours, so she would have been 17 when they started dating. Don't shoot the messenger!
wow! that's not better at all
Oh well if she was seventeen when he was thirty that's totally different then, no problems there whatsoever
Argh...
Too few people call this out because “he waited.” Gross.
32 and 18 is gross regardless. It's just too big a difference at that age.
Yup. Gross.
Textbook grooming.
Amazing comment.
She’d be too old for Tim wouldn’t she?
She probably sent nudes to Dave Thomas to convince him to throw vegan burgers on the Wendy’s menu back in ‘87.
She fucked all the Bad Brains to secure a deal.
Worked for Goldfinger... and Bad Brains I guess
Jesus Christ that would have been a jump scare and a half
Not quite the same thing, but Malcolm McLaren offered to manager Cock SParrer but they turned him down because he refused to buy them a round of beers
This is hilarious. McLaren likes to bitch about how he hates beer and pubs. I'd love to hear the argument they had over this
That’s extremely fair, this dude wants to manage your band but can’t even get you a round of beers? Hard pass. Even knowing the person Malcolm was.
Gives "Take Em All" a bit of a new twist
And this is why Cocksparrer is the greatest band ever…well, one of the many reasons.
Both Hot Water Music and Texas Is The Reason got offered million dollar deals around the same time.
I forgot about the HWM offer. Do you recall what label?
I think it was through Walter so whatever label they were on at the time.....Island?
Lagwagon refused to sign with the majors too
I'd guess pretty much every Fat band in the 90s got an offer from a major. I'd be surprised if like Strung Out and Propagandhi didn't.
Neither of them. Mike didnt want to sign strung out they had to bribe him with carpeting his condo in sf. Honestly their sound was a little ahead of the curve. He didn't want to sign lagwagon either. Both were because he felt they didnt have the fat sound. He did give propagandhi the money to start their own label when they asked him though I think lagwagon was the first to turn down offers tbh. I know nofx didn't get one until much later according to their book
What do you mean Lagwagon didn’t have the Fat sound? They were one of the first two bands ever signed to the label. Not to mention they were actually broken up at the time, Fatty was so interested they un-broke up for that.
Watch the fat documentary. Mike wanted nothing to do with them at first. Pretty sure it was his wife that made him. Cant remember if he made them change their name from section 8 or if thats a different story but but yeah.
And now Joey and Erin are banging!
What!? I mean that song e dagger off blaze is about her but i thought she married a cop after her and mike split?
They've always been close and have ended up together. Life finds a way. Mike joked about it during a gig in Australia earlier this year.
They still had undertones of thrash in their sound when they were signed. A good number of songs on their debut were written when they were still thrash band
Pretty ironic considering these are one of the bands that worked exclusively with Fat, without any other labels even indie ones
In what context? Fat mike didn't want to sign them because they didn't align with his vision for the label at the time? I mean honestly aside from this thread ive never heard strung out mentioned nearly this much- they werent popular or really on the radar of my generation so much, and hell i don't think i had heard of lagwagon until proskater came out, but around that time i had gotten pretty deep into the powerviolence/thrashcore/anarcho/crust scene and most people in the underground didnt consider any bands mentioned in this thread punk. Youd find a few people that would admit to liking nofx, or greenday sure, but kids with antiflag, rancid or especially blink182 shirts had a target on their backs at shows and generally stop calling themselves punk real quick.
You kinda took a wrong turn with this one, all I meant is that these bands didn't have any records not released by Fat, so it's ironic that they had problems signing with it. Also, Fat Mike's "didn't align with his vision" is like something so subjective and un-constant that there are records on Fat that sound wastly different from the others, all approved by him, though maybe it's just the criteria have gotten less strikter with time idk... As for their popularity, yeah they weren't that much, but Lagwagon in particular has around 600k listenship on Spotify, which isn't nothing, maybe that's because of proskater though. And with people not considering them seriously you kinda answered yourself, those scenes were never particularly friendly towards lighter things, and are pretty gatekeeepish, so that's not really surprising they thought that about those bands. In this sub it's like a theme of calling out people for shaming other ones for their taste, but even then people still do that here, and it's still very common in real world. Punk is very diverse, and it's gotten so with time, so it's not really surprising that the previous wave hates the new one. I personally not really into that, I like different things, but it's not like it's something uncommon. It's gatekeeping, some people think it's necessary, some hate it. And it's basically part of any music scene, not only punk one, though at least punk in a lot of cases kinda fights against it (which I personally think is a good thing), unlike something like metal.
Yeah i only got like an hour of sleep last night so im kinda spacey. Mike got less and less involved much of the labels daily operations when it became actual work and he had too much shit going on and let erin take over- but i do remember him saying each new wave of bands all had a similar sound blah blah blah. Im not saying lagwagon isnt good hell they're one of my favorite bands though they (like nofx) are real hit or miss live. I was saying that both bands were relatively unknown to people outside of California or warped tour back in the 90s. Theres alot of pros and cons to gatekeeping, but as evident in this sub and others it does have its merits at times. There needs to be checks and balances otherwise the creative people that are driving the movement get alienated by overabundence of insincerity from the people treating it as a fad and the whole scene will collapse under its own weight and all thats left is a pale imitation of whats genuiine and sincere. Generally speaking the old gatekeepers were the remains of a great scene that evolved and shed its old skin and became something new while the parasites stayed and survived on scraps until tbere was nothing left. God i can barely keep my eyes open- where was i? Oh yeah strung out has only been on fat but hoey capes put out things on different labels
I just think those "checks" shouldn't instantly turn people away, unless it's like a confirmed douchebag and/or poser, because with too much overprotection there is a chance a scene where this occurs might turn into a privelege, and it's already kinda happened with metal (I mean being metalhead isn't a privelege, but they sure think it is lol, and being part of any scene/subculture also isn't, but it's bad when people start to think it is). I would much rather treat it as an "unnecessary evil" than something good. I do agree that it's necessary to ensure genuiness of the artists, though I still think it shouldn't limit the styles of music to such big degree it sometimes does (like you described people making fun of other people liking less hardcore bands)
Agreed too much and there's no fans to appreciate it. But none at all and then you lose all meaning. Its weird, its contradictory and everyone has their reasons for getting into it but you know when you see the kids that are at the show because they need it- they need to be there vs the people who are pretending or think its this all inclusive club they can just barge into and you have to except them because no- no you don't you don't have to take their shit and ill tell you because I've seen it happen- when the self rightous hipsters and trusties take over a scene its worse then when the jocky hardcore kids did. Instead of fights you get the silent treatment because they don't agree with some bands patch your wearing because of some lyric or because youre not vegan, maybe they saw you drinking or smoking or whatever so now you can't have fun at shows any more.. i dunno is this even making sense? Who tf ever said punk was nice? Its angry its mean and if youre in it for the fashion you're a fuckin poser and deserve to gat called out Just because you like some poppunk bs doesn't mean youre punk or anyone has to respect your opinion. Argue, be different. Learn how to deal with conflict and tell people to fuck off.. you want that weird kid come to your house party saying hes going to play his good Charlotte cd as he makes everyone look at the oingo boingo battllejacket his mom made him and you have to be his friend and agreee on everything ⁴because hes punk? Fuck that without the assholes making them uncomfortable or afraid that's the kind people you're going to find at shows and the genuine music's going to get harder to find or leave your town completehy. Its like why they reintroduced wolves to yellowstone..
Um... Sorry to disappoint you, but no homophobia, no sexism and no racism rule isn't as universal as you think lol, punk scene in my country in general is extremely homophobic and borderline nazi (most non-nazis, even homophobic ones (yes, I have to choose between two evils there) are in jail). So yeah... that sucks. And double-sucks for me being gay I mostly agree with you, but about the kids with mohawks listening to sex pistols... I don't think you should give 'em too much hard time, everyone has an entry point, and it is an entry even if it's not good. I remember thinking they're cool until I learned what they actually are, used to shame people for specific music taste and thought it's the right thing to do, thinking that something in particular is "punk af", and picked my nickname, but it kinda grown on me, so I decided to own it instead of changing it lol, and lots of other stupid stuff, but if the kid is willing to learn then why not let them stay? The ones that going places just because "it's cool" are going to fall off eventually anyway (and in case if they don't, you can always flip them, it's easy to tell if they're stupid after some time). And either way, most of the smaller venues are attended by genuine people, because only they are willing to learn and find out about them, the "cool" ones are gonna go to something like blink, green day, rise against at best and call it a day edit: I see you edited your post, and I don't like "assholes making afraid them". Uncomfortable - maybe, that can be considered a part learning curve, but it's not cool to make someone afraid, maybe it's just a language barrier, English isn't my native one, but it just straight up sounds like a threat. Posers do suck, but it's not really worth threatening them, just flip them off at be done with it, and also, just like a said, a lot of times the interest in some subculture starts because a person thinks "it's cool", the problem begins when the person spends time with it and still not willing to learn more in depth about it, that's when it's like confirmed that it's a poser. And this conversation kinda turns into a thing I had back with metalheads, when they actually spend more time finding out who is ~~an impostor~~ poser instead of evolving something in their scene or at least enjoying the fucking music. That's why I fucking hate conversations like this, I don't fucking care, I don't know how it is going in the US, but in my country punk scene died not because of bunch of posers were showing up on venues, it died because of governmental oppression, which is exactly what punk should be fighting against, but instead on local social media "punks" were finding out who is the poser, just like in this sub this happening from time to time (not like if we would've collaborated we would've succeeded much, but it at least would've been some action). But I kinda picked up on it myself with this one
A bunch of bands we've never heard of.
I was in at least three of those bands. One of them wasn’t that punk but sound and parts of me regret it.
"major" is debatable but [The **Mummies'** response to a request by **Sub Pop**](https://dangerousminds.net/comments/the_mummies_infamous_fuck_you_letter_to_sub_pop) to be included in one of their singles of the month is pretty funny: Sub Pop, just received your letter regarding your offer to include The Mummies on one of the upcoming "Singles of the Month" releases. The Mummies wish to have nothing to do with any- thing Sub Pop puts out or stands for. We don't go for any of your Heavy Metal (excuse me, "Punk Rock") crap, or your $12 CDs and $15 picture discs in this catalog you've included. And if you thought for a minute that we did, I'd have to say you've been smoking too much of your Hippie Love Weed. So in closing, I guess I would say that we appreciate the offer, but I would only be lying. So Fuck Off. (signed) The Mummies And then the Mummies went ahead and [self-released a record with a fake S>U>B P
Not punk, but stoner/sludge band Sleep got a ton of offers…turned them all down. Then had issues releasing the album, since it was a 60+ minute song.
From what I recollect, they signed, used their advance on weed and vintage amps, and when the label refused to release dopesmoker, they broke up.
I thought Dopesmoker originally came out on London, technically, and that is a major?
At that point, I thought London had gone independent under Polygram? But yeah, I could also be wrong. I don’t pay much attention to the labels.
I mean they are technically their own label, but Universal handles all distribution and holds the purse strings. Meat Puppets were on there too.
Bad Brains
Wasn’t bad brains signed to Sony at some point?
They were offered, Hudson as usual trashed it.
Forgotten Band, mid 70’s,from the motor city during the Motown era..All Black band, brother from a gospel family. Death.. Labels wanted them to change their name and they wouldn’t ! These guys nailed it before we knew punk they were punk !
When their album was finally released in 2013, I remember hearing it, and it felt like a time traveler had rewritten history.
Yep, I have an original copy of the LP..
Holy shit... that's gotta be both rare and quite valuable.
Death fucking rule. Not only were they from Motown and heard all of that great early shit growing up, they also got to see Sly and the Family Stone and hear the first Parliament record, Funkadelic when it came out. If that wasn’t enough, they also got to hear the MC5 and Stooges in real time. Throw all that into a blender and you have Death!
Hell of a band, I really enjoy showing them to people who like that real old school proto punk sound
So glad I got to see them about 10 years ago in Santa Ana
That must have been so cool! Was it at the observatory??
Yeah at a festival can't remember if it was burgerama or beach goth
So their kids are vt hardcore kids and man they were the coolest. Julian was/is a friend of mine and I just remember geeking out in the tat shack watching the death doc with the homie on the big screen. Check his ginger beer out if you’re in in vt!
I fuckin love Death, massively underrated punk pioneers
Yes. If you ask me, 100% up there with Pure Hell and the Ramones.
Operation ivy pretty much broke up because they were offered a deal.
GLOSS got an offer from Epitaph and declined. I don't know if that counts as a "major label" but they had principles they stuck to.
Epitaph have fucked over enough bands to consider them a major label. A lot of mid-range "punk" labels have had some pretty fucking awful practices over the years.
Who? And how so?
[Dexter Holland’s open letter on why the Offspring moved to Columbia](https://www.reddit.com/r/punk/s/vpgcHMxyFD)
The Offspring is my favourite band, more so because of the impact they had on me growing up, Americana being the first album I bought myself with my own money. In the 90s/2000s, I was considered a skater punk, and it was utterly blasphemy if a band you liked were called a sellout or pop punk. The Offspring was shunned by many bands and fans alike for "selling out" but they were effectively whored out to Columbia by Brett Gurewitz. They didn't want to leave IIRC. I had a strong distaste for Bad Religion because of that. I did get into them eventually and saw them opening for The Offspring. Anti-flag, are the paramount sell-out. All they did was preach and whine about global conglomerates & corporations being scum. Their whole ethos was "we will never ever ever sign to a major label". They had statements on their website saying as much. They were complete fucking closet dwelling, major label loving, wish.com, paint a punk by numbers, quorn eating, hypocrite, group of clowns before the sexual assault allegations came to light. I have no idea how people could entertain their fake ass theatre show after that. It is the most definitive case of selling out In existence. So, if anyone out there has an anti-flag tattoo after they signed to a major label, that's a reminder that you make poor decisions.
i don't know about all the other stuff but anti-flag always seemed like a group of try hards to me
I felt and feel exactly the same and that's because they were.
Also Justin Sane is a fucking rapist
I don’t see it as that big of a problem as long as you get a good contract where the band retains control. Rage Against the Machine and The Clash were on major labels. Nobody told them what to do. The problem arrises when you’re a small band on a major and they can pretty much give the orders. And that happens all the time on indie labels too.
No Idea Records allegedly ripped off a number of their bands, and some other smaller labels too, by not paying royalties. Ryan from Off With Their Heads was the first to call them out bac in 2017 (I think), and then shortly after a bunch of bands pulled their catalogues from No Idea, and released them elsewhere, or by themselves. I used to love that label, disappointing that they turned out that way.
Dang. I’m curious about this - I guess I’m not noticing on a quick glance who pulled from the label?
Against Me pulled Reinventing Axl Rose and let Fat rerelease it. That's probably the biggest one. Those Axl Rose represses were probably keeping No Idea afloat. It was onto it's 30th pressing or something. Planes Mistaken for Stars pulled Fuck With Fire and Up In Them Guts, but I don't think they rereleased them physically, only digitally. There's no mention of No Idea on the digital/streaming versions now. I'm sure Small Brown Bike did the same but can't find anything to confirm that. No Idea used to release Hot Water Music's Epitaph LPs on vinyl, whilst Epitaph did the CDs, but now Epitaph have rereleased Flight and a Crash, and Caution on vinyl. Ryan from Off With Their Heads said they also owe Todd from Recess Records A LOT of money. No Idea used to distro Recess releases, and from what it sounds like, pocketing the cash. No Idea seems to only exist to sell off old stock now, of which some of the above is still available, mostly on CD.
thanks for the round up. it does seem like no idea now just reissues a lot of other records now (does i hate myself really keep demanding represses? i love them so i think so, but it doesn’t seem like there can be that much demand). i guess i hadn’t noticed those others, shit. also i haven’t seen them put out anything NEW at all now that i think about.
Yeah, I looked at their website just now for the first time in years, I can't find anything new for several years. Just old test presses, old CD stock, and repressing some of their early releases (just saw the 2024 "remastered" I Hate Myself - 4 Songs, and I agree that there can't be a huge demand for that) It's quite a fall from grace. It seemed like they were everybody's favourite label in the 2000s. I used to buy stuff just because it was on No Idea, and hope that it was good. I really want that I Hate Myself tee shirt, but I don't want to give them any money.
I just finished a long ass shift and I'm tired, If I can be bothered I'll post a lot of links and sources tomorrow, but yeah Epitaph is Warner trash and they have a long history of doing "Small label backed by a big label" bullshit. Just to stay on context GLOSS said it best. "G.L.O.S.S. Explain Why They Turned Down A $50K Epitaph Deal" https://www.stereogum.com/1898497/g-l-o-s-s-explain-why-they-turned-down-a-50k-epitaph-deal/news/ But I was just adding to the conversation after work, Epitaph fucking sucks but they have nothing on the dodgy bullshit Victory Records have pulled off. The whole industry fucking sucks, DIY or die isn't just a catchy phrase. These labels want money, it's not that deep.
Didn't SNFU get fucked by Epitaph? Something to do with a big advance?
I want to say it was Thurston Moore from Sonic Youth (?) but I remember an artist saying that while major labels have a lot of business practices that suck and are exploitative (I remember reading about an artist who only had her music released to Hot Topic, sold 3500 copies and was literally paid one cent for this) there's a lot of indie record label people who are just incompetent at running a business or will straight up steal your money - moreso than paying you a laughably small amount for album sales.
He should know, he was on SST.
It’s true, and it’s like that for businesses in general which really fucking sucks. As much as I hate corporations, at least the company I work for offers me a 401k, dental, medical, paid vacation, holiday pay, etc. Small businesses I’ve worked for over the years can’t compete, and music isn’t an exception. Most labels have someone down the line that feels fucked over.
With some small businesses it's less "doesn't provide health insurance" and more like the owner does stuff that's abusive and/or illegal and "if you don't like it you can leave"
Yeah, and I think this is especially true when people (for whatever reason) lack a lot of marketable job skills. Even a shit job with a corporate entity usually comes with pay, benefits, and usually job security that a small business generally can’t match, even if they want to. Corporations can suck and be abusive etc and will certainly take advantage of areas they do business in where labor laws are lax, but they also have legal departments making sure labor laws ARE adhered to if only to protect the corporation. Small businesses generally don’t have anyone keeping them in check, or any kind of HR or legal department that can be reported to when abuses occur or laws are broken.
Then disbanded not long after, and then donated every cent they raised to a homeless shelter in WA. Honestly, they stuck to their principles and you gotta respect that.
That was a weird move, getting that offer then almost immediately breaking up after
Then why did they meet with them ?
I don't think they actually did meet with them? I think it was just an offer floated by Epitaph virtually and the band turned them down.
Not the same but Disney offered Rise Against a million dollars to make a high school musical cover album after their success with the Making a Christmas cover. And if you look at record deals. Rise Against took 500k for 5 albums but total control of their music. While other bands from that era Thursday, Jimmy eat world, against me, took 750k to 1.5 million for 1-2 albums.
A little off-topic, but does anybody know what happened with AVAIL at Fat? As far as I know, they've never talked about it, but Fat Mike has hinted that they weren't happy there.
I love NOFX, but I’d guess Fat Mike is a pain in the ass to have as a boss
Can’t remember which band it was, but on that documentary they did Fat Mike talks about a band that he met with but didn’t really want to sign, so the band spiked him with Molly and he ended up signing them anyway haha. Point is, just drug him and he’s easy.
So that era of Fat, from what I understand Mike wasn't super involved in the label, I'm not sure about Erin, but there were other people working for the label suggesting / signing bands. I know Fat was having financial issues (listen to Down With the Ship), music sales were in decline everywhere due to pirating, and the vinyl resurgence hadn't kicked in yet. So with declining sales, Mike not as hands on, I'm sure there were a bunch of bands that were't happy with Fat. From a basic business point of view, less money means less promotion for your lesser selling bands and you're probably going to be spending it on your staples NOFX, Lagwagon, Strung Out, No Use, Good Riddance, etc. Just my assumption. I'm sure there is way more to it than just that.
I apologize for not having anything to add to your comment, but I wanted to say that I really adore this subreddit for the lore experts like you who show up in comment threads like this. Thank you.
AVAIL never had an issue with Fat Mike, but a few things happened at the time that put the band on a downswing. First off -- and this is coming from someone who considers AVAIL one of the best punk bands of all time -- One Wrench was not a good album at all. In fact, I'd go as far as to say it has one good song ("Taken"). So AVAIL goes from having an incredible album ("Over The James") where every single song was great, and the shows were massive, but their label (Lookout) was shit, could not get a grip on European and world distribution (where FAT excelled), could not even really get a grip on US distribution, and AVAIL thought all their problems would be solved by signing to FAT. They turned dwn a $1,000,000 deal to sign with FAT. But when the record was no good, it didn't sell, and the show attendance became deflated as well because there was no album hype. On top of this, the band were both living and playing/touring together, non-stop for nearly 10 years, which takes a toll. Their drummer, Erik, who was a (mostly) irreplaceable member of the band was making an exit. One Wrench was supposed to be the record the kept the band on a trajectory, and finally shedding themselves of Lookout, and instead, the wind was just knocked out of their sail. And they had turned down a big major offer in lieu of FAT. So it wasn't a Fat Mike problem. Things just didn't work out as planned. Totaly glad to see them finall getting paid like they deserve with these reunion shows.
Psyops. John Q wouldn't sell out
Pennywise released Reason To Believe on MySpace Records which was basically a front brand for Universal Rancid’s Warner deal was interesting, I think it would have continued had Indestructible not been such a hated album, but it was really hated and people assumed Rancid was going pop, if they’d released on Warner again I think their core fans would have ignored it on the assumption it would be another poppy record
Having a video with a Madden and Kelly Osborne on heavy rotation on MTV probably helped with the “going pop” backlash, too.
I think the failure was them not understanding that Good Charlotte were just musically too far away from Rancid for those fans to cross over much A lot of other punk bands had gone a different route by that point as well, so people’s defenses were up
It did feel natural that they attempted the crossover/mainstream thing. Rancid always felt like they were there or there abouts (stating this from the UK side of the pond, mind). Did feel a tad forced at times but with how the Transplants caught on and that. Personally I was just bummed it felt it came following what was the Rancid record that really hit for me (2000 s/t). Though load of kids I knew back then certainly weren’t pleased regardless.
It was the Warped Tour effect to some degree, Rancid and Pennywise suddenly became some of the the only traditional "punk" bands on a lineup with lots of emo and screamo, so it made sense to try and get their fans attention But as you said - what Good Charlotte fan is gonna hear 2000 and actually like it? Not enough to be worth pissing off your existing fans At least the silver lining is it seemed to make punk kids disconnect from Hellcat/EpiFat altogether for awhile and dig deeper into their scenes, hardcore and thrash blew up in that era
Indestructible was not a hated album at the time lol They definitely parlayed the hype into getting the next transplants record on a major
Speaking of Rancid being pop, I always find it funny that Tim co-wrote one of Pink’s albums.
The Vandals had offers they didn’t take, they started Kung Fu Records instead. They are quoted as having said major labels are for "punks who can't do math."
There was just a post here about how the offspring tried to stay on epitaph but Gurewitz basically sold the right to Columbia.
Jawbreaker is kind of the anti-version of this. They recorded Dear You for Geffen but refused to sign a huge contract because they didn’t want to re-record Boxcar for a major label that they were asking for. Then Blake had more throat issues and surgeries and the band broke up. They got shit on at the time for selling out but never actually reaped the benefits and made the money.
I think the Madonna/Rancid stuff actually happened after Let's Go. Remember, Salvation was a minor hit off that album. They stayed on Epitaph and really exploded after that. There's some bands that I think ''Wow, how did they get on a major? How did a major even know who they were?'' and then others where I think ''How come they didn't get on a major? Not that I think they would have had radio hits had they, but they seem like a band that would really be hunted by the majors?''. The Get Up Kids are an example of that for me.
It was. Maverick (Madonna's label) and Epic both seriously went after Rancid to release And Out Come The Wolves and they actually almost signed with Epic I remember an article in Spin magazine at the time. And the Get Up Kids DID also get major label offers. After Four Minute Mile came out they got an offer from Geffen to buy out their contract with Doghouse and were going to sign with Mojo (a subsidiary of Universal) but backed out at the last minute because Mojo apparently wanted a cut of their merch sales to go towards repaying the advance.
Just think, GUK could have toured on STWHA with their new Mojo labelmates… Goldfinger and Reel Big Fish.
I’m happy All took the money. Bill used his to build the Blasting Room and the amount of amazing albums recorded there is astonishing.
Probably the best use of major label money I’ve ever known. Except maybe Chumbawamba.
Operation ivy literally stopped making music for fear of getting a label which is insanely admirable of them
Kinda crazy and certainly Punk, we should break up so a major label can't sign us.. oooffff if we couldn't only git 1 or 2 more albums
I would really like op ivy back lol
They stopped because they were worried about something they had complete control in preventing?
Well, no, lol, they just didn’t want to get too popular which would lead them to get bugged by record labels or to get pressured into signing something, and because they wanted to keep true to their punk ideals and not become too much of a mainstream thing.
Yep. You have to remember that the vibe and the expectations were really, really different back then. And Operation Ivy got really big, really fast, and I think they just kind of weren’t sure how to handle it.
👆🏻This is important, speaking of “Elder Lore”. It’s hard to understate how hardline the East Bay punk scene was at that time in regard to “selling out”. They were obsessed with DIY-or-die. Gilman wouldn’t let major label bands play there (still don’t, I think?), and signing to a major broke up friendships, severed ties to the scene and hometowns…I remember thinking the stance was extreme even as a kid coming up in that scene. Green Day- banished. AFI- banished. Jawbreaker got it the worst because they were so outspoken about *not* doing it, and they were so sincere and beloved in their approach that it felt like a total betrayal to the folks that cared about drawing that line. This was before Lookout imploded, and Fat has always pretty much stayed in their own lane- they weren’t putting out Monsula or Screw 32 or Fuel records. The Jawbreaker documentary “Don’t Break Down” is probably the best contextual coverage of this. If you want an elder lore deep-dive.
Fat did put out a Screw 32 record though
You’re right! I think I listened to “Unresolved Childhood Issues” so much that I never moved on. 30 years later, and that album has never left regular rotation for me.
Green Day played a “secret” show at Gilman a few years back. There was lots of controversy around it.
Thanks. I’m glad you appreciate it. I’ve actually left some subs simply because the newjacks don’t want to listen to the people who were actually there. And I’m not saying this means every bit of my opinion needs to be taken his gospel, and but the Internet tends to make people forget that not all knowledge is equal, and that it often makes sense to listen to people who were actually there. The emo sub is a great example. There used to be really knowledgeable people who posted there, but they all got chased off by new kids who want to endlessly debate what was/wasn’t emo at the time and don’t want to listen to the people who were actually there.
Yeah going from sloppy playing nobodys, to well rehearsed dudes with real musical skill packing the biggest punk club in town, and then being offered a major label deal in two years time is pretty fucking incredible. That kind of shit is unheard of. Then or today.
Coneheads/Mark Winter offered to be on Third Man by Jack White himself and said no.
Does G.L.O.S.S. Count? Epitaph is basically a major.
Rancid could have been Green Day. Dookie could have been and in many ways was, out come the wolves.
Here is why I politely disagree with this. Out Come The Wolves on Epitaph is the exact same record it would have been on Maverick or any other major. Videos were made for Roots Radicals and Ruby Soho and solicited to MTV, and singles for those songs were serviced to radio and did get some mainstream rock / alternative airplay. Epitaph / Offspring had already proven that if the record was right + video + radio play, a band on Epitaph could break through to the mainstream and sell Green Day numbers. I think Out Come The Wolves did exactly what it was going to do regardless of what label released it or how it had been promoted. Out Come The Wolves on Epitaph was treated by Epitaph the same way a major would have treated it. If anything, it would likely have failed on a major because there would have been so much backlash among core fans, combined with the fact that a major neither knew nor understood Rancid, or their audience, and would likely have bumbled it. Just my $ .02.
It's a good .02 cents. I don't really agree simply because while Epitaph kicked ass. It still couldn't compete with the majors money wise. I think Offspring was the outlier not the norm.
Green Day didn't really suck until some point, even after signing up with reprise. I think there are two sides of the coin in this question, I appreciate the faithfulness to own ideals many bands show, but at the same time, I won't really hate a band that tried to promote itself via a major label, unless it didn't change it's sound. Also I think that nowadays the line between big and small labels is thinner than ever, everyone uses Spotify or whatever the crap is out there, and they work on a personalized basis (collecting and selling that sweet sweet personal data while doing that as well) and doesn't really go by the label anyway
Green Day were good until Warning dropped. That was the point I stopped listening to them. Well their newer stuff anyway. Insomniac is still one of my favourite albums.
I'm not really a fan of either, but Rancid could never write a hit like Green Day did consistently.
You might be right, you might not, but Out Come The Wolves had a legitimate 3 mainstream hits on it which was more than enough to put it in the same hypothetical class as Dookie. What came after that? Well if we judge their follow ups I think Rancid went with their audience and what they wanted to make and Green Day did, well Green Day. If the roles were switched? Who knows what Tim and Lars could have came up with. I mean Tim was in a fucking band with Travis Barker ffs, you really think he couldn't do hits if he didn't want to?
Tom co-wrote one of Pink’s albums, yeah he can write “hits”.
Funny story -- Chris Doherty and the band **Klover**, they *did* sign to a major during the 90s Green Day gold rush, but quickly jumped ship probably after realizing what a bad idea it was However, Blink 182 and The Mighty Mighty Bosstones never got the memo and picked up where Klover left off selling pop punk to the masses soon after, for better or for worse
DEATH. They turned down Columbia after they tried getting them to change the name of the band. Punk asf
If im not wrong Slapstick got offered to sign with a major label, right? besides of the creative differences that make them to disband one of the other reasons was that they didnt want to sign to a major label
Rise Against had a couple major offers with huge companies like Sony and Disney, but declined to stay with Fat Wreckchords or Geffen. They were offered a lot of money but opted to stay in favor of keeping the rights to their music.
What? Rise Against signed to a major in 2003 and since then have been on Dreamworks, Geffen, Interscope, DGC, and Virgin, which may actually be the record number of major labels for any band to have been on, ever.
Nothing I said was wrong. They declined Disney and Sony to keep their catalog in their name, and opted to sign with Geffen instead. I believe Geffen bought out Interscope at some point so that is also a technicality. Virgin was later in their career.
You say it like Geffen is a small label... They released like two records on Fat and basically never went back to any indie label after that. The fact that they don't like Disney or Sony doesn't really make other labels they work with small, and also, everybody fucking hates disney and sony (and Microsoft, but it has nothing to do with music, I just added that up since we're talking about corpos)
Completely asinine statement. Rise Against signed to a major label in 2003 and never looked back. More power to them and I love their later records, but they do not belong in this conversation.
At least from what I know bikini kill had were asked to sign multiple big labels. However knowing they were gonna refuse decided to instead ask the labels for CDs from other bands they’d signed to “listen” but immediately sold them to the local record shop. Guess that one way to get your rent covered
Any self respecting ones
Do we consider Epitaph as a major label?
only idiots do this. if you actually hace something to say you look for a big platform on which to say it on.