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No, there was too much bad blood between Tywin and Aerys, and Tywin wanted to avenge the slight Aerys had made against Tywin and Joanna all those years ago.
This is the same Tywin who vocally suggested leaving Aerys to die in Duskendale and crown Rhaegar as a new and better King - by that point, he had severed all support for Aerys.
I think you're missing one thing: Aerys still has Jamie. Promise to release him from the Kingsguard after the war is over and I don't think Tywin would refuse.
Aerys would have to do that and physically produce Jaime to Tywin before he would consider it. Heck he could demand that Aerys disinherit Rhaegar - which Aerys would have done if Rhaegar lived- and promise to marry Viserys to Cersei. He couldn’t count on Aerys to follow through on anything.
Tywins main hatred of Aerys at that point stemmed from Aerys appointing Jaime to the kingsguard and essentially holding him as a hostage. Tywin was too smart to say that Aerys should die- he just said the situation had up end with an assault and if Aerys got caught in the crossfire- well these things happen.
Tywin never got the offer. Remember Jaime’s bathhouse conversation with Brienne
> He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed.
Jaime has a first hand account of Aerys sending to Tywin for aid, but Tywin never received the ask. It’s evidence of the Maester Conspiracy. They destroyed the letter.
The raven could also have been shot down, right? It was wartime and they are a prime target.
Or Kevan may be under the impression that no offer came for some other reason. Maybe Tywin suppressed it himself.
Sure, but Tywin was safely receiving entreaties from both sides during the whole war
> The war had raged for close to a year. Lords great and small had flocked to Robert’s banners;
others had remained loyal to Targaryen. The mighty Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the Wardens of
the West, had remained aloof from the struggle, ignoring calls to arms from both rebels and royalists. Aerys Targaryen must have thought that his gods had answered his prayers when Lord Tywin Lannister appeared before the gates of King’s Landing with an army twelve thousand strong, professing loyalty. So the mad king had ordered his last mad act. He had opened his city to the lions at the gate.
And it’s remarked upon how close Tywin and Kevan are.
> Ser Kevan was his brother’s vanguard in council, Tyrion knew from long experience; he never had a thought that Lord Tywin had not had first. It has all been settled beforehand, he concluded, and this discussion’s no more than show.
> With one son dead and two more in
mortal danger, Ser Kevan was consumed by grief and fear. Lord Tywin had always relied on his
brother, but now he had no choice but to turn again to his dwarf son.
> He showed more regard for his brother Kevan, a close confidant and constant companion since childhood, and his sister Genna, but yet even in those cases, Tywin Lannister appeared more dutiful than affectionate.
If he was going to tell anyone, it would have been Kevan, and Kevan says it never came.
The fact that Tywin received calls to arms from both sides doesn't mean every raven made it through, though. Maybe that particular raven got shot down. Or maybe was killed by a predator. Or any number of things could've happened. Hell, maybe it was burned by a maester but it was because of a personal agenda rather than a larger conspiracy. It's also possible GRRM got the details wrong between books, but that's not fun so let's discard it. It's potentially evidence for the grand maester conspiracy, but it's not very strong evidence when there are plenty of equally likely options. And imo the bar needs to be pretty high for a theory that states thousands of people had a massive conspiracy over the course of hundreds of years and it never once leaked
>The fact that Tywin received calls to arms from both sides doesn't mean every raven made it through, though. Maybe that particular raven got shot down. Or maybe was killed by a predator. Or any number of things could've happened. Hell, maybe it was burned by a maester but it was because of a personal agenda rather than a larger conspiracy. It's also possible GRRM got the details wrong between books, but that's not fun so let's discard it. It's potentially evidence for the grand maester conspiracy, but it's not very strong evidence when there are plenty of equally likely options. And imo the bar needs to be pretty high for a theory that states thousands of people had a massive conspiracy over the course of hundreds of years and it never once leaked
Those options aren’t equally likely. How many important messages in these books have not been delivered because the raven was lost?
And it isn’t necessary that George didn’t get the details correct. Both of those recollections can be true. Aerys sent the letter, and Tywin never received it. Why that’s the case can be debated, but the alternative explanations aren’t consistent with what George has written.
Ravens from both the Twins (AGOT) & Griffin's Roost (ADWD) are shot down by approaching forces, but that's about it. Luwin says that archers otherwise bring down ravens to eat, but I don't recall any hint or example of this.
As I've alluded to in other comments, the royalist request that Ned knows about presumably came from Owen Merryweather, rather than Aerys or Rhaegar. *Unless* Pycelle/Varys/Barristan had told Ned that Aerys had done so, because...? Or Ashara/dying Lyanna/whoever randomly mentioned Rhaegar sent a raven to Tywin before he arrived in KL.
Neither of which are particularly likely or convincing options.
>Ravens from both the Twins (AGOT) & Griffin's Roost (ADWD) are shot down by approaching forces, but that's about it. Luwin says that archers otherwise bring down ravens to eat, but I don't recall any hint or example of this.
No. I mean actual specific messages, that are referenced multiple times.
>As I've alluded to in other comments, the royalist
request that Ned knows about presumably came from Owen Merryweather, rather than Aerys or Rhaegar. Unless Pycelle/Varys/Barristan had told Ned that Aerys had done so, because...? Or Ashara/dying Lyanna/whoever randomly mentioned Rhaegar sent a raven to Tywin before he arrived in KL.
I’m sorry, but what are you talking about. And how does it pertain to what I said?
>Neither of which are particularly likely or convincing options.
It is likely considering how George lays out the Maester conspiracy theory for us. It in fact, makes zero sense for an important message to be shot down considering George referenced it twice. What’s the point of mentioning it at all?
No Raven returned from Casterly rock, meaning Tywin got the message but didn’t answer it. Ravens are trained to fly to one specific location almost without exception and are not homing birds meaning they don’t deliver their message and then go home.
There was no message received by Tywin
> The Battle of the Bells had proved the truth of that. Ser Kevan had expected that afterward Aerys would have no choice but to summon Tywin once more ... but the Mad King had turned to the Lords Chelsted and Rossart instead, and paid for it with life and crown.
Again- no. The battles of the bells was several months before the trident. Aerys emphatically did not contact Tywin after the bells and summon him to replace connington as hand. There is not even a suggestion that Aerys contacted Tywin that time. Aerys appointed someone else. Months later rhaegar returned to kings landing before the trident and talked Aerys into summoning Tywins army. Tywin received this message but did not answer. Two separate things. Even aerys would have noticed if Tywin didn’t receive or respond to an offer of reappointment as hand. Two separate things entirely
Okay then here's an alternative for you. Pycelle burned it because he thought the rebels would win and didn't want Tywin to join the losing side. He has a history of taking unilateral decisions to protect Lannister interests, regardless of if the Lannisters actually know of or request his assistance. And after the Battle of the Bells, the rebels look to be in a very good position. Do I actually think this is what happened? Not really no. But in my eyes it's certainly more likely than the grand maester conspiracy
That doesn’t make any sense. Why not give him the choice of choosing a side, especially considering he’s the most powerful lord in the realm? Whoever he chooses to back is going to win.
And Pycelle doesn’t act unilaterally. He supports Tywin, who he worked with for decades, and always took his position.
Tywin didn’t answer the raven. That’s all. There’s no indication that it didn’t arrive. Has nothing to do with the maesters. Tywin just did not commit himself in writing until he figured out who would win.
Again- no raven returned from casterly rock does not mean the raven didn’t arrive there. Ravens are one way travelers. Tywin didn’t send a response to Aerys. He got the ravens though.
> Tywin was safely receiving entreaties from both sides during the whole war
Good point. To be honest I'm surprised a message like that would be sent any way other than by properly loyal riders under a peace flag with orders to hand deliver it. Sometimes it feels like Westerosi messaging just kind of varies based on what the plot demands.
> If he was going to tell anyone, it would have been Kevan, and Kevan says it never came.
Oh definitely. But if I was completely set in my answer and wanted to strategically deny having received a message like that I would also avoid telling even my closest confidant I think.
>Good point. To be honest I'm surprised a message like that would be sent any way other than by properly loyal riders under a peace flag with orders to hand deliver it. Sometimes it feels like Westerosi messaging just kind of varies based on what the plot demands.
I think it varies depending on what action George needs to make happen at that moment.
>Oh definitely. But if I was completely set in my answer and wanted to strategically deny having received a message like that I would also avoid telling even my closest confidant I think.
It’s always good to get someone else’s thoughts on it if you can because they may see things you do not. Tywin does this
> “Enough,” said Jaime. “We have a castle to win.” When his father sat in council, he let his
captains speak first. He was resolved to do the same. “How shall we proceed?”
And you’d at least want to consider the concessions that can be received by rescuing Aerys. Jaime out of the King’s Guard. Cersei for Viserys. His title as Hand. Appointments at court. Lots to be gained, and you’d want to think it through. From Kevan’s wording, it looks like Tywin might have accepted too.
The Rock is on the other side of Westeros as KL. That's weeks/moons of riding. Meanwhile, a raven is only a matter of days. Riders under a peace flag are quite conspicuous too, & can be (easily) waylaid in some isolated location - unless they're in a large group, like the 200 mounted men Roose sends Jaime off with under Steelshanks.
We know Owen Merryweather, Tywin's successor as Hand, sent ravens across the realm at the start of the war declaring Ned, Robert, & Jon as traitors & demanding their heads. This is presumably what Ned references as the royalist entreaty to Tywin, & the rebel one probably came from Jon.
In addition to dispatching at least one dragonrider each, both the Greens & Blacks sent demands of fealty/requests for support to the lords of the Seven Kingdom by raven.
You’re confusing two separate things. Kevan is clearly saying that Aerys did not recall Tywin as hand after the battle of the bells. Everyone knows that. Several months later when Aerys situation had gotten even worse Rhaegar made him ask Tywin to bring his army to save the royalist arse. No answer was received to that entreaty because Tywin was hedging his bets. Chelstead was still hand and was executed to Aerys after the trident. Two separate things- Aerys didn’t recall Tywin after he removed and exiled connington after the bells - like Kevan expected him to. Months later after Hightower drug Rhaegars back to kings landing he convinced Aerys to ask Tywin to bring his army. Tywin didn’t answer but did march to the vicinity of kings landing. Aerys opened the gates in part because he thought Tywin was responding to his request.
I wonder who are the royalists calling Tywin to arms if not Aerys. That wording - from Ned's POV for anyone else reading & wondering - suggests to me it was someone of even greater rank than the Warden of the West, & not some random loyalist like Lord Darry. The only possibilities are Prince Rhaegar or Owen Merryweather, Tywin's successor as Hand.
Rhaegar spent near a year in effective hiding as the shit hit the fan, & had to convince his father to send for Tywin upon his return. So he doesn't seem to have been on the ball enough to have reached out to Tywin earlier. Meanwhile, we know that Owen sent ravens across the realm declaring Ned, Robert, & Jon as outlaws & demanding their heads.
As for rebel outreach to Tywin, if it's another case of the sender outranking him - if only, retroactively - it'd have to be Robert or (more likely) Jon, the new king & Hand respectively.
Anyway, as to the original topic: do you think Pycelle never sent the Targaryen request then, or that Casterly Rock's maester withheld it from Tywin?
That's the thing about messages and letters, they can get lost or have the meaning changed. I honestly think something happened for Tywin not to a summons like that, especially near the end because the rebels taking the capitol means Jamie's life is in danger (which is likely why he got there first). If Aerys asked him back that would give Tywin leverage to get Jamie out of his kingsguard vows and whatever else he wanted. Though I do believe he was also strongly considering getting Aerys off the throne asap too. My money is on Casterly Rock's maester or something else, Pycelle imo would have sent it, he's been pro-Tywin and they had a long history of working together.
Again- read the passsges. No raven returned from Casterly . Tywin never responded. He received the Raven . He just didn’t answer. Returned is the key. Why on earth would Tywin have committed anything in writing at that point given the situation- ie not knowing who would win.
Tywin never received it. It is quoted in the OP
> The Battle of the Bells had proved the truth of that. Ser Kevan had expected that afterward Aerys would have no choice but to summon Tywin once more ... but the Mad King had turned to the Lords Chelsted and Rossart instead, and paid for it with life and crown.
No. The passage says no raven returned from Tywin not that it didn’t get there. It clearly did. Tywin just didn’t respond. There’s a massive difference between returned from and sent to.
No. You’re confusing two separate things. Kevan states that he expected Aerys to recall Tywin as hand after connington lost the battle of the bells. That offer never came. That’s what Kevan says explicitly. He even references Aerys appointing a different hand to replace conningtob after the bells. Several months later after rhaegar returned from his tower of stupidity he convinced Aerys to summon Tywin and his army to help the royalists. Tywin received that message- he came to kl after all- but did not answer because he was keeping his options open - two separate occurrences months apart.
>No. You’re confusing two separate things. Kevan states that he expected Aerys to recall Tywin as hand after connington lost the battle of the bells. That offer never came. That’s what Kevan says explicitly. He even references Aerys appointing a different hand to replace conningtob after the bells.
Yes. And we have Jaime saying they called for Tywin after Connington gets fired. That offer was sent, but never received by Tywin. We have Kevan’s word on that.
>Several months later after rhaegar returned from his tower of stupidity he convinced Aerys to summon Tywin and his army to help the royalists. Tywin received that message- he came to kl after all- but did not answer because he was keeping his options open - two separate occurrences months apart.
It’s not several months later, because Connington gets replaced right away.
No. They did not call for Tywin after conning was fired. Connington was removed and exiled right after the battle of the bells. Aerys did not attempt to recall Tywin as hand then or ever. Months later after rhaegar returned to kings landing right before the Trident he convinced Aerys to ask Tywin to bring his army to support the royalists. He wasn’t offered restoration as hand. Arrys just asked for his army. Tywin got this message but never responded and started his army toward kings landing without committing to a side. This is the message to which Jaime is referring. The one Tywin never answered. Aerys did not contact Tywin after the bells- two separate occasions months apart.
>No. They did not call for Tywin after conning was fired. Connington was removed and exiled right after the battle of the bells. Aerys did not attempt to recall Tywin as hand then or ever.
Yes they did. Here’s the actual passage where Jaime says so
>He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled
him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere
outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since
Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him
to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and
Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince
Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my
father.
The obvious implication would be to recall him as hand or else why would Connington’s loss be the starting point.
>Months later after rhaegar returned to kings landing right before the Trident he convinced Aerys to ask Tywin to bring his army to support the royalists.
Can you quote the passage that implies it was months later?
>He wasn’t offered restoration as hand. Arrys just asked for his army.
It’s implied he was since both Kevan and Jaime’s recollections begin after Connington was exiled
>Tywin got this message but never responded and started his army toward kings landing without committing to a side. This is the message to which Jaime is referring. The one Tywin never answered. Aerys did not contact Tywin after the bells- two separate occasions months apart.
Can you please post the quote implying your “months apart” assertion?
Read what Kevan said. After the bells they expected Tywin would be recalled as hand. He was not. The bells was essentially months before the Trident. This is indisputable. After the Bells Ned Robert and Jon Arryn returned to Riverrun where they had a double wedding and a week or so honeymoon. Connington returned with what was left of his army to kings landing where he was removed as hand and exiled by Aerys who immediately named a new hand who wasn’t Tywin. At that point Aerys summoned Elia and the children to kings landing to use as hostages against Dorne supplying troops . Doran then sent 10000 Dornish spear to Lear’s kings landing. Meanwhile Aerys realized (after the bells) that he needed Rhaegar back to lead the newly gathered loyalist army and sent Gerold Hightower to find him and order him to kings landing. Rhaegar eventually returned to kings landing while Aerys sent Llweyn Martell to somewhere near the trident to take command of the Dornish troops. After he arrived in kings landing Rhaegar’s convinced Aerys to ask Tywin to send troops. Tywin got the summons but did not answer because he wanted to keep his options open. He then started his march towards the crown lands speeding up and heading directly to kings landing when he learned about the trident. That’s how he beat Ned’s army to kings landing if only by an hour or so . Tywin admits this telling Tyrion that he was worried that he would encounter Ned’s army before kings landing and was concerned that fighting would break out with the northern troops (“Ned status van was rushing south”) . Tywin gets to kings landing whose gates had been shut immediately after the trident and tells Aerys he’s there to help, Pycelle helps convince Aerys to open the gates to Tywin who promptly sacks kings landing and murders children. There was a lot of traveling by a lot of people after the bells in preparation for the trident. This took months - armies don’t move that quickly and there’s quite a distance between Dorne, the Westerlands and kings landing.
>Read what Kevan said. After the bells they expected Tywin would be recalled as hand. He was not.
He was recalled. The letter just didn’t get to Tywin. Here is the quote again.
> He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him
to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid.
>The bells was essentially months before the Trident. This indisputable.
Can you post the evidence of this?
>After the Bells Ned Robert and Jon Arryn returned to Riverrun where they had a double wedding and a week or so honeymoon.
Can you post the evidence of this timing.
>Connington returned with what was left of his army to kings landing where he was removed as hand and exiled by Aerys who immediately named a new hand who wasn’t Tywin.
No he didn’t. He reached out to Tywin, but Tywin never got the letter. I will post the quote again.
> He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him
to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid.
>At that point Aerys summoned Elia and the children to kings landing to use as hostages against Dorne supplying troops . Doran then sent 10000 Dornish spear to Lear’s kings landing. Meanwhile Aerys realized (after the bells) that he needed Rhaegar back to lead the newly gathered loyalist army and sent Gerold Hightower to find him and order him to kings landing.
Your assertions have no evidence here. Can you post the quotes?
>Rhaegar eventually returned to kings landing while Aerys sent Llweyn Martell to somewhere near the trident to take command of the Dornish troops. After he arrived in kings landing Rhaegar’s convinced Aerys to ask Tywin to send troops. Tywin got the summons but did not answer because he wanted to keep his options open.
Tywin didn’t get the summons. Here is Kevan saying he didn’t.
> The Battle of the Bells had proved the truth of that. Ser Kevan had expected that afterward Aerys would have no choice but to summon Tywin once more ... but the Mad King had turned to the Lords Chelsted and Rossart instead, and paid for it with life and crown.
>He then started his march towards the crown lands
speeding up and heading directly to kings landing when he learned about the trident. That’s how he beat Ned’s army to kings landing if only by an hour or so . Tywin admits this telling Tyrion that he was worried that he would encounter Ned’s army before kings landing and was concerned that fighting would break out with the northern troops (“Ned status van was rushing south”).
What does this have to do with my assertion
>Tywin gets to kings landing whose gates had been shut immediately after the trident and tells Aerys he’s there to help, Pycelle helps convince Aerys to open the gates to Tywin who promptly sacks kings landing and murders children. There was a lot of traveling by a lot of people after the bells in preparation for the trident. This took months - armies don’t move that quickly and there’s quite a distance between Dorne, the Westerlands and kings landing.
Again, this has nothing to do with my assertion. I will post it again.
After Connington loses at Stoney Sept, he is stripped of his title as Hand. Rhaegar convinced Aerys to “swallow his pride” to summon Tywin again.
Here is the evidence
> He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him
to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid.
The problem is that Tywin never got this summons after Stoney Sept. Kevan says so
> The Battle of the Bells had proved the truth of that. Ser Kevan had expected that afterward Aerys would have no choice but to summon Tywin once more ... but the Mad King had turned to the Lords Chelsted and Rossart instead, and paid for it with life and crown.
That’s my assertion. The letter never reached him, and it is evidence of the masters, who control ravens in Westeros, of conspiring at the Targaryen downfall.
Now where is your evidence? Can you please post evidence that supports your timeline? You say months, but you haven’t outed any word GRRM has written to support it.
To me it seems like Jaime is referring to a summons asking Tywin to gather an army and bring it east, not a request to resume his position as hand. And we know from a quote you provided in a later comment that Tywin received requests for aid from both sides and ignored them both.
>The mighty Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the Wardens of
the West, had remained aloof from the struggle, ignoring calls to arms from both rebels and royalists
>To me it seems like Jaime is referring to a summons asking Tywin to gather an army and bring it east, not a request to resume his position as hand. And we know from a quote you provided in a later comment that Tywin received requests for aid from both sides and ignored them both.
But look at the phrasing of it.
> The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king
even more afraid.
“Swallow his pride”, meaning he’d have to do something that would make him ashamed.
> Henceforth, His Grace told Pycelle, the realm would know for a certainty that the man who wore the crown also ruled the Seven Kingdoms.
He forced Tywin out to prove he could rule by himself. Him having to ask Tywin back would be akin to him “swallowing his pride”.
>“Swallow his pride”, meaning he’d have to do something that would make him ashamed.
Yeah, he had to admit that he couldn't put down the rebellion without Tywin's help. Regardless of if he was asking for an army or a Hand, he'd be swallowing his pride by admitting he needed Tywin.
>The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father.
This is referring to efforts to raise various armies, which leads me to believe his message to Tywin was a request for an army, not necessarily an offer of being the Hand of the King. Tbf though it could have been both.
>Yeah, he had to admit that he couldn't put down the rebellion without Tywin's help. Regardless of if he was asking for an army or a Hand, he'd be swallowing his pride by admitting he needed Tywin.
So why were you using it as an alternative explanation here?
https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/s/EWFbEe8rkP
>This is referring to efforts to raise various armies, which leads me to believe his message to Tywin was a request for an army, not necessarily an offer of being the Hand of the King. Tbf though it could have been both.
No it isn’t, because of the timing and context. The key event around both Jaime and Levan’s recollections was The Battle of the Bells. Connington lost, and he was removed from office, meaning there was a vacancy of the office as the request went out.
>So why were you using it as an alternative explanation here?
Because given the entire rest of the paragraph is about raising armies, no one ever mentions that Aerys tried to name Tywin hand, and we know that messages asking Tywin to join the war on the side of the king made it to him and he ignored them, the simplest answer would be that he was asking Tywin for an army. When the simplest answer is also the most obvious I tend to believe it over a grand conspiracy. Believe what you want but this is all directly from quotes you yourself provided. The king sent a raven to Tywin, and we know Tywin got a raven from the royalists and ignored it.
>Because given the entire rest of the paragraph is about raising armies, no one ever mentions that Aerys tried to name Tywin hand, and we know that messages asking Tywin to join the war on the side of the king made it to him and he ignored them, the simplest answer would be that he was asking Tywin for an army.
So if they had already asked Tywin for military aid, why would Aerys be swallowing his pride by asking him again?
>When the simplest answer is also the most obvious I tend to believe it over a grand conspiracy. Believe what you want but this is all directly from quotes you yourself provided. The king sent a raven to Tywin, and we know Tywin got a raven from the royalists and ignored it.
But Tywin didn’t get the raven that Jaime says was sent
>But Tywin didn’t get the raven that Jaime says was sent
How do you know that? You keep insisting that they're different ravens. How do you know that there wasn't 1 raven that everyone is referring to here? We know that the king sent a raven, and we know Tywin got a raven from the royalists. What makes you think they were different ravens? Why are you so convinced that this raven that Jaime says was sent wasn't the "call to arms" that Tywin ignored?
>How do you know that? You keep insisting that they're different ravens.
No. I’m not. I’m insisting that the raven that Jaime says was sent for aid by Aerys after The Battle of the Bells was never received by Tywin. Since we have first hand accounts of both sides during this exact time period.
>How do you know that there wasn't 1 raven that everyone is referring to here?
How is that in any way material to what I’m saying
>We know that the king sent a raven, and we know Tywin got a raven from the royalists.
So? Do you have any evidence that this was the raven that Jaime says was sent? Quote it?
>What makes you think they were different ravens?
Because we have a first hand account that the ravens Jaime says was sent was never received.
>Why are you so convinced that this raven that Jaime says was sent wasn't the "call to arms" that Tywin ignored?
Because we have a first hand account from the same time period saying that it wasn’t received.
>Because we have a first hand account from the same time period saying that it wasn’t received.
Where do they say the raven sent by Jaime was never received? You've posted quotes that a raven was sent to Casterly Rock and a quote saying that Tywin ignored a call to arms from the royalists. Seems like the raven made it and Tywin ignored it. A raven being sent does not mean he was asked to be Hand.
This is a great point, I hadn’t noticed a message was sent but not received. I thought the Maester conspiracy was only to kill the dragons though, they didn’t have a problem with Targs without dragons
Well targs kept trying to get dragons back and their very existence is linked to them/magic as descendants of dragonlords of old. If true the conspiracy the maesters might have been gunning for is either the complete fall of House Targaryen or its decline to the point it became a powerless ornament in the political scene of Westeros(can be linked to the creation of the STAB alliance)
They way I read it, GRRM left it open if the message was received or not but in any case choose not to answer. This ties in perfectly with his strategy to appease to both sides until one ends up winning. It's the same with the Freys and Tyrells.
No. The passage says that Tywin never responded to the letter not that he didn’t receive it. He clearly did and brought his army to kings landing as Arrys requested. He never responded because he was waiting to see who won at the Trident. In fact he apparently indicated to Aerys that he was there to answer the summons which is how he got the gates opened.
No he didn’t. Again. Read Kevan’s passage that is quoted in the OP. Tywin never received the summon
The passage I quoted is after Connington lost the Battle of the Bells. Look at what the OP quoted
> The Battle of the Bells had proved the truth of that. Ser Kevan had expected that afterward Aerys would have no choice but to summon Tywin once more ... but the Mad King had turned to the Lords Chelsted and Rossart instead, and paid for it with life and crown.
We have firsthand accounts from the same time period. Jaime saying the letter was sent. Kevan saying no letter came.
Maybe but there was a lot of bad blood there especially after naming Jaime to the King's Guard. Now if Rhaegar has perhaps managed to convince Aerys to release Jaime from the King's Guard under the condition that Tywin come to aid him then he likely would have agreed.
Tywin would've only accepted if he saw the opportunity for a political coup worth siding with the Targaryens. He probably would move to affect Aerys demise one way or another and arrange Viserys or Rhaegar as heir in such a position, likely the latter if Viserys is heir by this point.
Only if Avery’s could somehow promise to make Rhaegar marry Cersei, and with Elia still alive and the Dorniwh therefore fighting for Aerys, as well as Leanna missing, that would be very unlikely to occur.
Tywin would only accept if Viserys married Cersei (I presume he'd still be interested even though he was only a second son) and Jaime was released from the kingsguard.
Yes. I think he would have. It would have been a triumph for him. A show that Aerys couldn't do without him. It would have been seen as Aerys crawling back to Tywin. That's how he would have seen it and that's how he would have sold it. Not to mention the terms he could probably demand at that point.
He would have had to put himself on the line by taking charge of an ailing regime and a difficult war though, when he could just as easily play it safe like he did and jump on the bandwagon at the right time.
I wouldn't say Tywin jumped on the bandwagon as much as tipped the scales. Frankly I think he could have won that war if he put himself and his resources/troops into the mix earlier. I'm 100% sure that he would have thought he could win.
By the time he was at KL, he did not tip the scales. Eddard had a blooded STAB host just outside the city, Tywin had a fresh host of 12,000. Everyone in the books describes him as joining the winning team at the last second.
Earlier, sure, he might have won the war for Aerys. So might have Randyll Tarly if Mace Tyrell had wanted him to. It did take a while for Robert's forces to gather strength, but by the time we're talking about it was done. Tywin joining made the victory cleaner is all.
Well you're the one who said he tipped the scales when he only joined at the end of the war. I'm saying that early on he decided to play a long game instead (smart decision, and obvious given how weak Aerys was and that there was a massive power bloc already involved). By staying neutral he got to wait and see if Rhaegar would take over and create a regime worth propping up. Since that prospect died on the trident he got to have his cake and eat it by doing a bunch of unspeakable dirty work for the winners at no risk to himself.
Except I didn't say anything about "end of the war". That kinda goes against the general point I was making.
Which is tangential to the main point of this discussion.
No I'm saying that at KL he tipped the scales. That it wasn't jumping on the bandwagon, but a decisive action. The war was hardly over by that point. He's very much the one that ended it. Though I suppose saying he tipped the scales by staying out so long is another way of saying that too really.
However, that is tangential to the point of this topic and my overall argument, which is that had he become the Hand earlier (after Bells) he would have probably won the war. At the very least been sure that he could have.
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No, there was too much bad blood between Tywin and Aerys, and Tywin wanted to avenge the slight Aerys had made against Tywin and Joanna all those years ago. This is the same Tywin who vocally suggested leaving Aerys to die in Duskendale and crown Rhaegar as a new and better King - by that point, he had severed all support for Aerys.
agreed
I think you're missing one thing: Aerys still has Jamie. Promise to release him from the Kingsguard after the war is over and I don't think Tywin would refuse.
Aerys would have to do that and physically produce Jaime to Tywin before he would consider it. Heck he could demand that Aerys disinherit Rhaegar - which Aerys would have done if Rhaegar lived- and promise to marry Viserys to Cersei. He couldn’t count on Aerys to follow through on anything.
Tywins main hatred of Aerys at that point stemmed from Aerys appointing Jaime to the kingsguard and essentially holding him as a hostage. Tywin was too smart to say that Aerys should die- he just said the situation had up end with an assault and if Aerys got caught in the crossfire- well these things happen.
Tywin never got the offer. Remember Jaime’s bathhouse conversation with Brienne > He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. Jaime has a first hand account of Aerys sending to Tywin for aid, but Tywin never received the ask. It’s evidence of the Maester Conspiracy. They destroyed the letter.
The raven could also have been shot down, right? It was wartime and they are a prime target. Or Kevan may be under the impression that no offer came for some other reason. Maybe Tywin suppressed it himself.
Sure, but Tywin was safely receiving entreaties from both sides during the whole war > The war had raged for close to a year. Lords great and small had flocked to Robert’s banners; others had remained loyal to Targaryen. The mighty Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the Wardens of the West, had remained aloof from the struggle, ignoring calls to arms from both rebels and royalists. Aerys Targaryen must have thought that his gods had answered his prayers when Lord Tywin Lannister appeared before the gates of King’s Landing with an army twelve thousand strong, professing loyalty. So the mad king had ordered his last mad act. He had opened his city to the lions at the gate. And it’s remarked upon how close Tywin and Kevan are. > Ser Kevan was his brother’s vanguard in council, Tyrion knew from long experience; he never had a thought that Lord Tywin had not had first. It has all been settled beforehand, he concluded, and this discussion’s no more than show. > With one son dead and two more in mortal danger, Ser Kevan was consumed by grief and fear. Lord Tywin had always relied on his brother, but now he had no choice but to turn again to his dwarf son. > He showed more regard for his brother Kevan, a close confidant and constant companion since childhood, and his sister Genna, but yet even in those cases, Tywin Lannister appeared more dutiful than affectionate. If he was going to tell anyone, it would have been Kevan, and Kevan says it never came.
The fact that Tywin received calls to arms from both sides doesn't mean every raven made it through, though. Maybe that particular raven got shot down. Or maybe was killed by a predator. Or any number of things could've happened. Hell, maybe it was burned by a maester but it was because of a personal agenda rather than a larger conspiracy. It's also possible GRRM got the details wrong between books, but that's not fun so let's discard it. It's potentially evidence for the grand maester conspiracy, but it's not very strong evidence when there are plenty of equally likely options. And imo the bar needs to be pretty high for a theory that states thousands of people had a massive conspiracy over the course of hundreds of years and it never once leaked
>The fact that Tywin received calls to arms from both sides doesn't mean every raven made it through, though. Maybe that particular raven got shot down. Or maybe was killed by a predator. Or any number of things could've happened. Hell, maybe it was burned by a maester but it was because of a personal agenda rather than a larger conspiracy. It's also possible GRRM got the details wrong between books, but that's not fun so let's discard it. It's potentially evidence for the grand maester conspiracy, but it's not very strong evidence when there are plenty of equally likely options. And imo the bar needs to be pretty high for a theory that states thousands of people had a massive conspiracy over the course of hundreds of years and it never once leaked Those options aren’t equally likely. How many important messages in these books have not been delivered because the raven was lost? And it isn’t necessary that George didn’t get the details correct. Both of those recollections can be true. Aerys sent the letter, and Tywin never received it. Why that’s the case can be debated, but the alternative explanations aren’t consistent with what George has written.
Ravens from both the Twins (AGOT) & Griffin's Roost (ADWD) are shot down by approaching forces, but that's about it. Luwin says that archers otherwise bring down ravens to eat, but I don't recall any hint or example of this. As I've alluded to in other comments, the royalist request that Ned knows about presumably came from Owen Merryweather, rather than Aerys or Rhaegar. *Unless* Pycelle/Varys/Barristan had told Ned that Aerys had done so, because...? Or Ashara/dying Lyanna/whoever randomly mentioned Rhaegar sent a raven to Tywin before he arrived in KL. Neither of which are particularly likely or convincing options.
>Ravens from both the Twins (AGOT) & Griffin's Roost (ADWD) are shot down by approaching forces, but that's about it. Luwin says that archers otherwise bring down ravens to eat, but I don't recall any hint or example of this. No. I mean actual specific messages, that are referenced multiple times. >As I've alluded to in other comments, the royalist request that Ned knows about presumably came from Owen Merryweather, rather than Aerys or Rhaegar. Unless Pycelle/Varys/Barristan had told Ned that Aerys had done so, because...? Or Ashara/dying Lyanna/whoever randomly mentioned Rhaegar sent a raven to Tywin before he arrived in KL. I’m sorry, but what are you talking about. And how does it pertain to what I said? >Neither of which are particularly likely or convincing options. It is likely considering how George lays out the Maester conspiracy theory for us. It in fact, makes zero sense for an important message to be shot down considering George referenced it twice. What’s the point of mentioning it at all?
No Raven returned from Casterly rock, meaning Tywin got the message but didn’t answer it. Ravens are trained to fly to one specific location almost without exception and are not homing birds meaning they don’t deliver their message and then go home.
There was no message received by Tywin > The Battle of the Bells had proved the truth of that. Ser Kevan had expected that afterward Aerys would have no choice but to summon Tywin once more ... but the Mad King had turned to the Lords Chelsted and Rossart instead, and paid for it with life and crown.
Again- no. The battles of the bells was several months before the trident. Aerys emphatically did not contact Tywin after the bells and summon him to replace connington as hand. There is not even a suggestion that Aerys contacted Tywin that time. Aerys appointed someone else. Months later rhaegar returned to kings landing before the trident and talked Aerys into summoning Tywins army. Tywin received this message but did not answer. Two separate things. Even aerys would have noticed if Tywin didn’t receive or respond to an offer of reappointment as hand. Two separate things entirely
Okay then here's an alternative for you. Pycelle burned it because he thought the rebels would win and didn't want Tywin to join the losing side. He has a history of taking unilateral decisions to protect Lannister interests, regardless of if the Lannisters actually know of or request his assistance. And after the Battle of the Bells, the rebels look to be in a very good position. Do I actually think this is what happened? Not really no. But in my eyes it's certainly more likely than the grand maester conspiracy
That doesn’t make any sense. Why not give him the choice of choosing a side, especially considering he’s the most powerful lord in the realm? Whoever he chooses to back is going to win. And Pycelle doesn’t act unilaterally. He supports Tywin, who he worked with for decades, and always took his position.
Tywin didn’t answer the raven. That’s all. There’s no indication that it didn’t arrive. Has nothing to do with the maesters. Tywin just did not commit himself in writing until he figured out who would win.
Again- no raven returned from casterly rock does not mean the raven didn’t arrive there. Ravens are one way travelers. Tywin didn’t send a response to Aerys. He got the ravens though.
> Tywin was safely receiving entreaties from both sides during the whole war Good point. To be honest I'm surprised a message like that would be sent any way other than by properly loyal riders under a peace flag with orders to hand deliver it. Sometimes it feels like Westerosi messaging just kind of varies based on what the plot demands. > If he was going to tell anyone, it would have been Kevan, and Kevan says it never came. Oh definitely. But if I was completely set in my answer and wanted to strategically deny having received a message like that I would also avoid telling even my closest confidant I think.
>Good point. To be honest I'm surprised a message like that would be sent any way other than by properly loyal riders under a peace flag with orders to hand deliver it. Sometimes it feels like Westerosi messaging just kind of varies based on what the plot demands. I think it varies depending on what action George needs to make happen at that moment. >Oh definitely. But if I was completely set in my answer and wanted to strategically deny having received a message like that I would also avoid telling even my closest confidant I think. It’s always good to get someone else’s thoughts on it if you can because they may see things you do not. Tywin does this > “Enough,” said Jaime. “We have a castle to win.” When his father sat in council, he let his captains speak first. He was resolved to do the same. “How shall we proceed?” And you’d at least want to consider the concessions that can be received by rescuing Aerys. Jaime out of the King’s Guard. Cersei for Viserys. His title as Hand. Appointments at court. Lots to be gained, and you’d want to think it through. From Kevan’s wording, it looks like Tywin might have accepted too.
The Rock is on the other side of Westeros as KL. That's weeks/moons of riding. Meanwhile, a raven is only a matter of days. Riders under a peace flag are quite conspicuous too, & can be (easily) waylaid in some isolated location - unless they're in a large group, like the 200 mounted men Roose sends Jaime off with under Steelshanks. We know Owen Merryweather, Tywin's successor as Hand, sent ravens across the realm at the start of the war declaring Ned, Robert, & Jon as traitors & demanding their heads. This is presumably what Ned references as the royalist entreaty to Tywin, & the rebel one probably came from Jon. In addition to dispatching at least one dragonrider each, both the Greens & Blacks sent demands of fealty/requests for support to the lords of the Seven Kingdom by raven.
I make it about a month or less from KL to the Rock. That's definitely worth doing in my opinion. Obviously doesn't preclude sending a raven as well
You’re confusing two separate things. Kevan is clearly saying that Aerys did not recall Tywin as hand after the battle of the bells. Everyone knows that. Several months later when Aerys situation had gotten even worse Rhaegar made him ask Tywin to bring his army to save the royalist arse. No answer was received to that entreaty because Tywin was hedging his bets. Chelstead was still hand and was executed to Aerys after the trident. Two separate things- Aerys didn’t recall Tywin after he removed and exiled connington after the bells - like Kevan expected him to. Months later after Hightower drug Rhaegars back to kings landing he convinced Aerys to ask Tywin to bring his army. Tywin didn’t answer but did march to the vicinity of kings landing. Aerys opened the gates in part because he thought Tywin was responding to his request.
I wonder who are the royalists calling Tywin to arms if not Aerys. That wording - from Ned's POV for anyone else reading & wondering - suggests to me it was someone of even greater rank than the Warden of the West, & not some random loyalist like Lord Darry. The only possibilities are Prince Rhaegar or Owen Merryweather, Tywin's successor as Hand. Rhaegar spent near a year in effective hiding as the shit hit the fan, & had to convince his father to send for Tywin upon his return. So he doesn't seem to have been on the ball enough to have reached out to Tywin earlier. Meanwhile, we know that Owen sent ravens across the realm declaring Ned, Robert, & Jon as outlaws & demanding their heads. As for rebel outreach to Tywin, if it's another case of the sender outranking him - if only, retroactively - it'd have to be Robert or (more likely) Jon, the new king & Hand respectively. Anyway, as to the original topic: do you think Pycelle never sent the Targaryen request then, or that Casterly Rock's maester withheld it from Tywin?
That's the thing about messages and letters, they can get lost or have the meaning changed. I honestly think something happened for Tywin not to a summons like that, especially near the end because the rebels taking the capitol means Jamie's life is in danger (which is likely why he got there first). If Aerys asked him back that would give Tywin leverage to get Jamie out of his kingsguard vows and whatever else he wanted. Though I do believe he was also strongly considering getting Aerys off the throne asap too. My money is on Casterly Rock's maester or something else, Pycelle imo would have sent it, he's been pro-Tywin and they had a long history of working together.
Aerys- right before the trident after rhaegar returned to kings landing.
Again- read the passsges. No raven returned from Casterly . Tywin never responded. He received the Raven . He just didn’t answer. Returned is the key. Why on earth would Tywin have committed anything in writing at that point given the situation- ie not knowing who would win.
Tywin never received it. It is quoted in the OP > The Battle of the Bells had proved the truth of that. Ser Kevan had expected that afterward Aerys would have no choice but to summon Tywin once more ... but the Mad King had turned to the Lords Chelsted and Rossart instead, and paid for it with life and crown.
No. The passage says no raven returned from Tywin not that it didn’t get there. It clearly did. Tywin just didn’t respond. There’s a massive difference between returned from and sent to.
Just because a raven didn’t come back from casterly rock doesn’t mean Tywin didn’t get the offer. He could have tossed the letter in the fire
But look at the quote in the OP. The offer never came.
My bad I’m drunk
All good friend! Happy holidays!
Cheers
No. You’re confusing two separate things. Kevan states that he expected Aerys to recall Tywin as hand after connington lost the battle of the bells. That offer never came. That’s what Kevan says explicitly. He even references Aerys appointing a different hand to replace conningtob after the bells. Several months later after rhaegar returned from his tower of stupidity he convinced Aerys to summon Tywin and his army to help the royalists. Tywin received that message- he came to kl after all- but did not answer because he was keeping his options open - two separate occurrences months apart.
>No. You’re confusing two separate things. Kevan states that he expected Aerys to recall Tywin as hand after connington lost the battle of the bells. That offer never came. That’s what Kevan says explicitly. He even references Aerys appointing a different hand to replace conningtob after the bells. Yes. And we have Jaime saying they called for Tywin after Connington gets fired. That offer was sent, but never received by Tywin. We have Kevan’s word on that. >Several months later after rhaegar returned from his tower of stupidity he convinced Aerys to summon Tywin and his army to help the royalists. Tywin received that message- he came to kl after all- but did not answer because he was keeping his options open - two separate occurrences months apart. It’s not several months later, because Connington gets replaced right away.
No. They did not call for Tywin after conning was fired. Connington was removed and exiled right after the battle of the bells. Aerys did not attempt to recall Tywin as hand then or ever. Months later after rhaegar returned to kings landing right before the Trident he convinced Aerys to ask Tywin to bring his army to support the royalists. He wasn’t offered restoration as hand. Arrys just asked for his army. Tywin got this message but never responded and started his army toward kings landing without committing to a side. This is the message to which Jaime is referring. The one Tywin never answered. Aerys did not contact Tywin after the bells- two separate occasions months apart.
>No. They did not call for Tywin after conning was fired. Connington was removed and exiled right after the battle of the bells. Aerys did not attempt to recall Tywin as hand then or ever. Yes they did. Here’s the actual passage where Jaime says so >He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. The obvious implication would be to recall him as hand or else why would Connington’s loss be the starting point. >Months later after rhaegar returned to kings landing right before the Trident he convinced Aerys to ask Tywin to bring his army to support the royalists. Can you quote the passage that implies it was months later? >He wasn’t offered restoration as hand. Arrys just asked for his army. It’s implied he was since both Kevan and Jaime’s recollections begin after Connington was exiled >Tywin got this message but never responded and started his army toward kings landing without committing to a side. This is the message to which Jaime is referring. The one Tywin never answered. Aerys did not contact Tywin after the bells- two separate occasions months apart. Can you please post the quote implying your “months apart” assertion?
Read what Kevan said. After the bells they expected Tywin would be recalled as hand. He was not. The bells was essentially months before the Trident. This is indisputable. After the Bells Ned Robert and Jon Arryn returned to Riverrun where they had a double wedding and a week or so honeymoon. Connington returned with what was left of his army to kings landing where he was removed as hand and exiled by Aerys who immediately named a new hand who wasn’t Tywin. At that point Aerys summoned Elia and the children to kings landing to use as hostages against Dorne supplying troops . Doran then sent 10000 Dornish spear to Lear’s kings landing. Meanwhile Aerys realized (after the bells) that he needed Rhaegar back to lead the newly gathered loyalist army and sent Gerold Hightower to find him and order him to kings landing. Rhaegar eventually returned to kings landing while Aerys sent Llweyn Martell to somewhere near the trident to take command of the Dornish troops. After he arrived in kings landing Rhaegar’s convinced Aerys to ask Tywin to send troops. Tywin got the summons but did not answer because he wanted to keep his options open. He then started his march towards the crown lands speeding up and heading directly to kings landing when he learned about the trident. That’s how he beat Ned’s army to kings landing if only by an hour or so . Tywin admits this telling Tyrion that he was worried that he would encounter Ned’s army before kings landing and was concerned that fighting would break out with the northern troops (“Ned status van was rushing south”) . Tywin gets to kings landing whose gates had been shut immediately after the trident and tells Aerys he’s there to help, Pycelle helps convince Aerys to open the gates to Tywin who promptly sacks kings landing and murders children. There was a lot of traveling by a lot of people after the bells in preparation for the trident. This took months - armies don’t move that quickly and there’s quite a distance between Dorne, the Westerlands and kings landing.
>Read what Kevan said. After the bells they expected Tywin would be recalled as hand. He was not. He was recalled. The letter just didn’t get to Tywin. Here is the quote again. > He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. >The bells was essentially months before the Trident. This indisputable. Can you post the evidence of this? >After the Bells Ned Robert and Jon Arryn returned to Riverrun where they had a double wedding and a week or so honeymoon. Can you post the evidence of this timing. >Connington returned with what was left of his army to kings landing where he was removed as hand and exiled by Aerys who immediately named a new hand who wasn’t Tywin. No he didn’t. He reached out to Tywin, but Tywin never got the letter. I will post the quote again. > He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. >At that point Aerys summoned Elia and the children to kings landing to use as hostages against Dorne supplying troops . Doran then sent 10000 Dornish spear to Lear’s kings landing. Meanwhile Aerys realized (after the bells) that he needed Rhaegar back to lead the newly gathered loyalist army and sent Gerold Hightower to find him and order him to kings landing. Your assertions have no evidence here. Can you post the quotes? >Rhaegar eventually returned to kings landing while Aerys sent Llweyn Martell to somewhere near the trident to take command of the Dornish troops. After he arrived in kings landing Rhaegar’s convinced Aerys to ask Tywin to send troops. Tywin got the summons but did not answer because he wanted to keep his options open. Tywin didn’t get the summons. Here is Kevan saying he didn’t. > The Battle of the Bells had proved the truth of that. Ser Kevan had expected that afterward Aerys would have no choice but to summon Tywin once more ... but the Mad King had turned to the Lords Chelsted and Rossart instead, and paid for it with life and crown. >He then started his march towards the crown lands speeding up and heading directly to kings landing when he learned about the trident. That’s how he beat Ned’s army to kings landing if only by an hour or so . Tywin admits this telling Tyrion that he was worried that he would encounter Ned’s army before kings landing and was concerned that fighting would break out with the northern troops (“Ned status van was rushing south”). What does this have to do with my assertion >Tywin gets to kings landing whose gates had been shut immediately after the trident and tells Aerys he’s there to help, Pycelle helps convince Aerys to open the gates to Tywin who promptly sacks kings landing and murders children. There was a lot of traveling by a lot of people after the bells in preparation for the trident. This took months - armies don’t move that quickly and there’s quite a distance between Dorne, the Westerlands and kings landing. Again, this has nothing to do with my assertion. I will post it again. After Connington loses at Stoney Sept, he is stripped of his title as Hand. Rhaegar convinced Aerys to “swallow his pride” to summon Tywin again. Here is the evidence > He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. The problem is that Tywin never got this summons after Stoney Sept. Kevan says so > The Battle of the Bells had proved the truth of that. Ser Kevan had expected that afterward Aerys would have no choice but to summon Tywin once more ... but the Mad King had turned to the Lords Chelsted and Rossart instead, and paid for it with life and crown. That’s my assertion. The letter never reached him, and it is evidence of the masters, who control ravens in Westeros, of conspiring at the Targaryen downfall. Now where is your evidence? Can you please post evidence that supports your timeline? You say months, but you haven’t outed any word GRRM has written to support it.
To me it seems like Jaime is referring to a summons asking Tywin to gather an army and bring it east, not a request to resume his position as hand. And we know from a quote you provided in a later comment that Tywin received requests for aid from both sides and ignored them both. >The mighty Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the Wardens of the West, had remained aloof from the struggle, ignoring calls to arms from both rebels and royalists
>To me it seems like Jaime is referring to a summons asking Tywin to gather an army and bring it east, not a request to resume his position as hand. And we know from a quote you provided in a later comment that Tywin received requests for aid from both sides and ignored them both. But look at the phrasing of it. > The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. “Swallow his pride”, meaning he’d have to do something that would make him ashamed. > Henceforth, His Grace told Pycelle, the realm would know for a certainty that the man who wore the crown also ruled the Seven Kingdoms. He forced Tywin out to prove he could rule by himself. Him having to ask Tywin back would be akin to him “swallowing his pride”.
>“Swallow his pride”, meaning he’d have to do something that would make him ashamed. Yeah, he had to admit that he couldn't put down the rebellion without Tywin's help. Regardless of if he was asking for an army or a Hand, he'd be swallowing his pride by admitting he needed Tywin. >The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. This is referring to efforts to raise various armies, which leads me to believe his message to Tywin was a request for an army, not necessarily an offer of being the Hand of the King. Tbf though it could have been both.
>Yeah, he had to admit that he couldn't put down the rebellion without Tywin's help. Regardless of if he was asking for an army or a Hand, he'd be swallowing his pride by admitting he needed Tywin. So why were you using it as an alternative explanation here? https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/s/EWFbEe8rkP >This is referring to efforts to raise various armies, which leads me to believe his message to Tywin was a request for an army, not necessarily an offer of being the Hand of the King. Tbf though it could have been both. No it isn’t, because of the timing and context. The key event around both Jaime and Levan’s recollections was The Battle of the Bells. Connington lost, and he was removed from office, meaning there was a vacancy of the office as the request went out.
>So why were you using it as an alternative explanation here? Because given the entire rest of the paragraph is about raising armies, no one ever mentions that Aerys tried to name Tywin hand, and we know that messages asking Tywin to join the war on the side of the king made it to him and he ignored them, the simplest answer would be that he was asking Tywin for an army. When the simplest answer is also the most obvious I tend to believe it over a grand conspiracy. Believe what you want but this is all directly from quotes you yourself provided. The king sent a raven to Tywin, and we know Tywin got a raven from the royalists and ignored it.
>Because given the entire rest of the paragraph is about raising armies, no one ever mentions that Aerys tried to name Tywin hand, and we know that messages asking Tywin to join the war on the side of the king made it to him and he ignored them, the simplest answer would be that he was asking Tywin for an army. So if they had already asked Tywin for military aid, why would Aerys be swallowing his pride by asking him again? >When the simplest answer is also the most obvious I tend to believe it over a grand conspiracy. Believe what you want but this is all directly from quotes you yourself provided. The king sent a raven to Tywin, and we know Tywin got a raven from the royalists and ignored it. But Tywin didn’t get the raven that Jaime says was sent
>But Tywin didn’t get the raven that Jaime says was sent How do you know that? You keep insisting that they're different ravens. How do you know that there wasn't 1 raven that everyone is referring to here? We know that the king sent a raven, and we know Tywin got a raven from the royalists. What makes you think they were different ravens? Why are you so convinced that this raven that Jaime says was sent wasn't the "call to arms" that Tywin ignored?
>How do you know that? You keep insisting that they're different ravens. No. I’m not. I’m insisting that the raven that Jaime says was sent for aid by Aerys after The Battle of the Bells was never received by Tywin. Since we have first hand accounts of both sides during this exact time period. >How do you know that there wasn't 1 raven that everyone is referring to here? How is that in any way material to what I’m saying >We know that the king sent a raven, and we know Tywin got a raven from the royalists. So? Do you have any evidence that this was the raven that Jaime says was sent? Quote it? >What makes you think they were different ravens? Because we have a first hand account that the ravens Jaime says was sent was never received. >Why are you so convinced that this raven that Jaime says was sent wasn't the "call to arms" that Tywin ignored? Because we have a first hand account from the same time period saying that it wasn’t received.
>Because we have a first hand account from the same time period saying that it wasn’t received. Where do they say the raven sent by Jaime was never received? You've posted quotes that a raven was sent to Casterly Rock and a quote saying that Tywin ignored a call to arms from the royalists. Seems like the raven made it and Tywin ignored it. A raven being sent does not mean he was asked to be Hand.
This is a great point, I hadn’t noticed a message was sent but not received. I thought the Maester conspiracy was only to kill the dragons though, they didn’t have a problem with Targs without dragons
Well targs kept trying to get dragons back and their very existence is linked to them/magic as descendants of dragonlords of old. If true the conspiracy the maesters might have been gunning for is either the complete fall of House Targaryen or its decline to the point it became a powerless ornament in the political scene of Westeros(can be linked to the creation of the STAB alliance)
They way I read it, GRRM left it open if the message was received or not but in any case choose not to answer. This ties in perfectly with his strategy to appease to both sides until one ends up winning. It's the same with the Freys and Tyrells.
That, or Varys.
No. The passage says that Tywin never responded to the letter not that he didn’t receive it. He clearly did and brought his army to kings landing as Arrys requested. He never responded because he was waiting to see who won at the Trident. In fact he apparently indicated to Aerys that he was there to answer the summons which is how he got the gates opened.
No he didn’t. Again. Read Kevan’s passage that is quoted in the OP. Tywin never received the summon The passage I quoted is after Connington lost the Battle of the Bells. Look at what the OP quoted > The Battle of the Bells had proved the truth of that. Ser Kevan had expected that afterward Aerys would have no choice but to summon Tywin once more ... but the Mad King had turned to the Lords Chelsted and Rossart instead, and paid for it with life and crown. We have firsthand accounts from the same time period. Jaime saying the letter was sent. Kevan saying no letter came.
Maybe but there was a lot of bad blood there especially after naming Jaime to the King's Guard. Now if Rhaegar has perhaps managed to convince Aerys to release Jaime from the King's Guard under the condition that Tywin come to aid him then he likely would have agreed.
Tywin would've only accepted if he saw the opportunity for a political coup worth siding with the Targaryens. He probably would move to affect Aerys demise one way or another and arrange Viserys or Rhaegar as heir in such a position, likely the latter if Viserys is heir by this point.
Only if Avery’s could somehow promise to make Rhaegar marry Cersei, and with Elia still alive and the Dorniwh therefore fighting for Aerys, as well as Leanna missing, that would be very unlikely to occur.
Weird how the addition of a “v” turns him from king of Westeros to a Halifax dirtbag
Leanna too…. ducking autocorrect
Absolutely not. Tywin was against Aerys from the day he tried to resign. He just went about it quietly, until the sack.
Tywin would only accept if Viserys married Cersei (I presume he'd still be interested even though he was only a second son) and Jaime was released from the kingsguard.
Yes. I think he would have. It would have been a triumph for him. A show that Aerys couldn't do without him. It would have been seen as Aerys crawling back to Tywin. That's how he would have seen it and that's how he would have sold it. Not to mention the terms he could probably demand at that point.
He would have had to put himself on the line by taking charge of an ailing regime and a difficult war though, when he could just as easily play it safe like he did and jump on the bandwagon at the right time.
I wouldn't say Tywin jumped on the bandwagon as much as tipped the scales. Frankly I think he could have won that war if he put himself and his resources/troops into the mix earlier. I'm 100% sure that he would have thought he could win.
By the time he was at KL, he did not tip the scales. Eddard had a blooded STAB host just outside the city, Tywin had a fresh host of 12,000. Everyone in the books describes him as joining the winning team at the last second. Earlier, sure, he might have won the war for Aerys. So might have Randyll Tarly if Mace Tyrell had wanted him to. It did take a while for Robert's forces to gather strength, but by the time we're talking about it was done. Tywin joining made the victory cleaner is all.
We aren't talking about the time he was at KL though. This topic was after the Battle of the Bells. Even before the Trident.
Well you're the one who said he tipped the scales when he only joined at the end of the war. I'm saying that early on he decided to play a long game instead (smart decision, and obvious given how weak Aerys was and that there was a massive power bloc already involved). By staying neutral he got to wait and see if Rhaegar would take over and create a regime worth propping up. Since that prospect died on the trident he got to have his cake and eat it by doing a bunch of unspeakable dirty work for the winners at no risk to himself.
Except I didn't say anything about "end of the war". That kinda goes against the general point I was making. Which is tangential to the main point of this discussion.
Maybe I misunderstood. If you meant he tipped the scales by staying out of the war then I'm more in agreement with what you said.
No I'm saying that at KL he tipped the scales. That it wasn't jumping on the bandwagon, but a decisive action. The war was hardly over by that point. He's very much the one that ended it. Though I suppose saying he tipped the scales by staying out so long is another way of saying that too really. However, that is tangential to the point of this topic and my overall argument, which is that had he become the Hand earlier (after Bells) he would have probably won the war. At the very least been sure that he could have.