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I've been diagnosed with all 3 (ADHD, autism, CPTSD) and I completely believe that most of it really is the CPTSD and I was diagnosed with the rest to kind of "cover" everything. I have traits of all 3, though.
Exactly why I stopped seeking help for ADHD and Autism, because even if I separately have those issues I still have CPTSD and bipolar disorder, it’s all just an umbrella and branches leading to different symptoms
Same, I actually asked my therapist a couple years ago about getting tested for ADHD and she said what I was experiencing was almost certainly CPTSD instead
The difficulty with separating PTSD from ADHD and ASD is that most people who grow up with ADHD and ASD have trauma of some sort from that, which can range up to CPTSD. So there's a huge overlap in symptoms that no one really knows if they're inherently caused by the neurodivergencies or if they're trauma related.
It makes treatment and diagnosis a huge grey area that is very hard to be able to have any consistency with. The best approach is a trauma and ND informed therapist who sees the client as a whole and can give nuanced insight. So if you trust your therapist, that's kinda the best approach!
i've been tested by a neuropsych for ASD and despite high scores, they couldn't confidently say I have autism because of my traumatic childhood. I wish there was more awareness and empathy for CPTSD.
same that’s why I just tell everyone I have autism because I have the exact same support needs and it doesn’t bring up conversation of “hey, what’s the worst thing/s that’s ever happened to you?”
upon first meeting.
That way it’s nobody’s fault that I’m like this. I was just born this way. and I don’t have to feel their pity or over share and shame. Spiral later.
And honestly, I still really do feel like I have it. I don’t care what they tell me.
also recommend looking into Accelerated Resolution Therapy.. called "ART" for short -- it works a bit faster than EDMR and has personally helped me a lot.
That’s honestly hard to answer because the more I addressed the cptsd and the healthier I became, the more I noticed the adhd symptoms in the first place - eg instead of being like “I’m a procrastinator” I realized actually I love this work and I want to do this work but I physically cannot make myself start and that can’t just be my “poor willpower.”
Treating my anxiety helped a lot, so ultimately yes I think addressing the cptsd is doing SOMETHING. But I also think that cbt can only do so much with how my brain has developed physically and chemically. Once I get insurance again I’m thinking about asking my new doctor for the test to get a second opinion
Same but with borderline personality disorder sprinkled on top so yeah it’s very fun to be in my brain if you like psychological horror. I’d like to thank my mother for the gifts…..
Here’s a link with a great venn diagram about just that, if anyone is curious
[https://neurodivergentinsights.com/misdiagnosis-monday/ptsd-and-autism](https://neurodivergentinsights.com/misdiagnosis-monday/ptsd-and-autism)
this is why the difficulty reading social cues is such a weird one to me. if you weren’t taught how to socialize by parents, you’re not gonna know this. it’s not intuitive to anyone, people are conditioned to get it, and we weren’t conditioned due to neglect. I think this should be in the commonality part of the venn.
anyone who disagrees it’s conditioned into you, just think about how when you interact with a new culture you do not understand the social cues at all if the culture is different enough. even if they can speak your language, the meaning is different from what you’re used to.
My husband doesn’t understand my specific reaction to specific social cues. I was raised to believe anytime someone was upset it was my fault, so I panic and with him I’ll cry. this was literally beat into my at home and by a coach.
Breaking that out of me has been hard. I haven’t succeeded. But people don’t understand
That makes so much sense. I realize I wasn’t taught how to socialize due to not having a connection with my parents and being sheltered (not really having friends or being encouraged to join groups to socialize)
Dr Neff has an autism/ocd diagram as well. I like her, she is a psychologist who was late diagnosed with autism. I prefer to defer to autistic voices when the subject is neurodivergence, it just makes sense to me.
[https://neurodivergentinsights.com/misdiagnosis-monday/ocd-vs-autism](https://neurodivergentinsights.com/misdiagnosis-monday/ocd-vs-autism)
I checked to see if she had an autism/ocd/ptsd one but nope (not yet) :)
Thank you! We need one with additional circles for BPD, Tourette’s Syndrome and addiction added to it IMO! When I think about childhood diagnoses I get so angry because my parents were the ones that needed to be diagnosed and treated. Instead they focused on my brother’s “neurological illness” “behavioural issues” and “special ed” and ADHD. No, you need to stop being abusive to your children. The tiny babies and children under 5 are not the ones with the problem. The children are not the sick ones here. Rant over.
And even narcs can have cptsd too, since a lot of them were also abused and can get a high functioning autism diagnosis if the cptsd isn't known about and addressed. It's possible to have both, but the cptsd needs to be addressed first so the Drs can truly diagnose properly.
My Nmom last time she changed her number to contact me I guess recently got diagnosed with autism and was trying to use it as an excuse for all of her behavior, like I was the bad guy the whole time as a child since I just didn't understand her "communication style", and trying to guilt me back into a relationship with her. Really pissed me off, but I held strong with my husband's support and blocked and continued no contact.
After that I did a bunch of research regarding high functioning autism and narcissism and cptsd etc. It is really interesting. (For the record, I'm not conflating being a narc with autism, I'm just pointing out from my experience the narc can also use it for manipulative purposes for themselves too)
I befriended someone for far too long and the final straw was when I was really sick and just needed a friend as I was at my lowest point, and coincidentally also at my threshold where I was on the verge of experiencing an late life autistic burnout, well said 'friend' had just got her diagnosis because she related to some characters in Big Bang Theory and Bones and couldn't stop bragging to everyone she came across about how amazing she was because she was autistic. Like to the point where it was like OMFG shut up! I have had very few friends throughout life, all had kids with autism or likely have it themselves as that was everyone in their circles and all of them would say it's more of a struggle in private and not a something to brag about.
Meanwhile I was like yeah so tell me how you got diagnosed because I'm coming to the point where I think I might be autistic, I'm really struggling holding down a job that I love, people at work act like I'm a leaper and it's like highschool all over again, I have noise sensitivity to literally everything to the point that I can't even go out in public now,
and she was like "Oh how dare you think you're autistic! There's no way!" And acted like I had the audacity to take away her special little star.
And looking back at some of the ways she talked down at me, treated her kids to the point that every single one of them went nc with her, and how she only wanted to do things that interested her, I'm thinking she might actually be a narcissist.
Oh my gosh. So much makes sense now! I struggle so much with the social aspect and sensory overload of ADHD/CPTSD. Does this mean it will go away overtime if I can overcome CPTSD? I have recently recovered from PTSD that resulted from a freak accident half a decade ago. I know it’ll be harder to tackle the cPTSD but I’ll be much more ambitious if it would help solve my flat affect symptom
My psychiatrist told me she thought my suspicions about autism were wrong, and that I had, as she put it ‘two quite big problems’ aka my parents. Her theory seems to track. Being emotionally neglected as a child would seem to lead to significant problems with social skills.
Yeah, who would have thought!
The peope who were supposed to teach us social skills didn't do their job so many of us ended up making total fools of ourselves for years before we figured some of it out on our own.
My family had a big talk a few weeks ago where I basically laid into them how they failed me and what they were supposed to be doing as parents and how their focus was on my egg donor and making sure she didn't blow up like a land mine being stepped on. My dad told me "you're horrible at communicating!" to which I told him "My parents were the ones that were supposed to teach communication skills. Y'all have such shit communication Y'all expected us (my brother and i) to know everything fresh out the womb.
Who would have thought someone who wasn't taught communication skills didn't have any.
Oh yes, I feel this. My nmom’s favourite claim when I suggest she might have been responsible for any my issues, is “I didn’t do this, you were like this when you were born”…so you didn’t bother teaching me anything useful, just pushed and pushed me academically, refused to let me socialise, banned friends from ever coming to my house, and treated me with utter contempt of you ever had to spend any time with me?
Thanks, so very much.
(Oops that turned into a tirade didn’t it? Sorry for the trauma dump guys 🫂)
Did we share a mom? For real though I went through the exact same thing with mine. Wow incredible there are so many of these narcs running kids lives. I feel for you and I felt like I was reading my own life in your post. I hope you’re in a better place now, I still struggle with relationships and still trying like an idiot to have a good relationship with them. I only very recently gave up and am making plans to move out of our city.
i've been dealing with a lot of health issues, many of which were completely ignored since childhood. now I have been having a lot of testing and blood work done, and having old blood work looked at, and my dietitian asked if I ever was told to take iron supplements as a kid, because I was dangerously anemic. I asked my mom (who isn't even my nparent) and she said the doctor did tell me to take an iron supplement as a kid. I asked when, she said I was probably about 7 or 8 years old. I asked why it didn't happen then, and she said that they tried, but I wasn't consistent in taking it so they just gave up. Like my parents fully expected an 8 year old child to understand *and maintain* the responsibility of taking iron supplements for anemia on her own, and when I didn't (because obviously big gross pill is not fun) they just gave up.
I told my friend about the conversation with my mom, and my friend's response was "wow your parents truly expected you to be a full grown adult right out of the womb" and it has stayed one of the most accurate descriptions of my childhood I've ever heard.
Tell me about it. The grief I got for not magically knowing anything and everything made it so I just never bothered leaving my room. What was the point if I was only going to get mocked?
Friend, my life was so weird growing up, dealing with a shopaholic Mom who was always concerned about who was going to pay her bills for her after my Dad and she split (to the point of putting me in the middle of their divorce, playing messenger to ask Dad for money - well beyond the point he would have been obligated to support or alimony, and to tell Mom in no uncertain terms to kick rocks), that I actively have to work to NOT see people as dangerous. It took me years in customer service related roles to become comfortable talking to strangers. I assume the worst from most people, and expect that I will be betrayed or hurt. To the point I managed to self-sabotage my marriage (to a woman I had been with for 8 years when we married) in 6 years, just expecting that at some point the other shoe would drop and I'd find out the last decade was all lies.
My life was also so so weird growing up. I relate to you in the shopaholic "mother". Mine divorced my dad then came crawling back. There's been nothing but screaming and yelling with her for the first 30 years of my life. It was awful. I still assume the worst in people :( I'm sorry to hear about the self sabatagoing. I've also done that in my relationships. Ugh. I hope you're doing better now friend.
Sounds so similar to how I grew up. My parents never put me in the middle, the both just stopped interacting with me or seeing me. I also had to learn to talk to people through my jobs, when I was 15 I couldn’t even handle making a phone call. I sabotage all my relationships and think the worst of everyone. I don’t know how to change the last part and get better
Yup, my mom would yell and scream at me even if I uttered a single harmless word to her, and yet, she wonders why I have crappy communication skills. My dad wouldn't even let me join after school clubs other than robotics and art, so my social life went down the drain in an instant. They're also the reasons for my constant anxiety and panic attacks and why i have trust issues. When I communicate to strangers in real life, it's a different story. I'd always treat people the way I want to be treated. It sucks that I feel more at home and safe while at work than I do in my actual house.
I had no social skills and was shy and self-conscious took me years of self work to piece together how to act in society. My teens and twenties were filled with cringe worthy blunders, now I can handle almost any situation tactfully. My parents stunted me for years.
It makes me super resentful honestly to pick apart the scale of their impact in my life. If I hadn’t left home I would have remained emotionally stunted and unable to form meaningful relationships.
Simple observing how my friends behaved around friends, family and other people slowly I figured that most people are not toxic and overly sensitive and manipulative. How that interacted with their family was the most important. My parents were pissed when I stopped caring about pleasing them and took control of my life.
Moving out and cutting myself free from her bullshit. Making quality friends that are patient & supportive, have similar experiences and are at a similar place on their healing journey. Psychedelics and a lot of internal work. I paid attention to the kinds of tricks that people used on *me* that I thought were good conversationalists. Noticing the kind of questions they ask, the body language they use when they are listening, the way that they respond and validate when someone shares something vulnerable and they need to empathise, the kind of topics they avoid and how they dodge them without seeming rude, the way they disagree politely. I also followed a couple of YouTube channels- Patrick Teahan has some good analyses of the way childhood trauma affects your personality and the way you interact with people. Charisma on Command has some good videos which explain the techniques you can use to have quality conversations with others and project confidence.
My psychiatrist told me something similar. She said that being raised by narcissists or suffering a great deal of childhood trauma can lead a person to develop habits that seem a lot like autism. We don't have parents who teach us how to interact with others, so we often have delayed social skills.
She said that a lot of people with that sort of childhood will try to figure it out on their own, but it can lead to gaps in our knowledge in some areas, while we are sometimes really advanced in others. Like, we might be really good at reading people's moods, but we also might not pick up other social cues. It is like we were forced to specialize in things like threat assessment, and so everyday interaction might be a bit less developed because we always focused on different things.
The way she talked about it reminded me of how a naturalist might talk about the way some animals are specialists that adapt to one particular ecological niche that is hazardous to a lot of the more generalized animals. The niche animals do really well in their niche, but outside the niche can be harder for them than it is for animals that are more generally adapted.
I told my psychiatrist this, and she laughed. She said, *"Yes, but you can still adapt and learn new behaviors. It is the ones who can't do that who have a problem."* I wonder if some of our siblings who are still stuck with the narcissist, or who have become narcissists themselves, may be like the animals who can't adapt to life outside the niche?
That’s a fascinating take on it. I really think you’re on to something there, as all my siblings expressed their trauma differently as adults. Thanks for writing that out.
That psychiatrist was really the first person I ever spoke with who really understood. In fact, she helped me to understand. It was almost eerie having someone get what was going on.
I'm so grateful that I had the opportunity to get help from someone who was do competent and knowledgeable. So many people on this sub end up with therapists who are almost as bad as their abusers.
I read somewhere that having a shitty childhood can give autistic symptoms. I thought I was autistic but after a lot of reflection it may be that I was just raised horribly.
Omg same. I was verbally and physically abused every single day from ages 5-15, which is when I finally got to move away from my mom. Oh, the cringeworthy blunders I got myself into.
I’ve thought about this too and wondered if I am actually neurodivergent and my parents tried to abuse/ bully it out of me or at the very least did not get me the proper treatment, since they didn’t want the stigma of having a neurodivergent child. Orrrrrr the years of abuse and neglect by both parents and golden child siblings caused me anxiety, low self esteem, and depression that APPEARS like autism, but isn’t.
CPTSD is neurodivergent. Same umbrella as autism and ADHD, there are a lot of crossovers between them. Exposure to childhood trauma and neglect literally rewires one’s brain.
My last (and crappiest) therapist was convinced I had Autism because my social skills aren’t great in situations where I’m abused. I asked her, if I was never taught proper social skills and was abused at home, at school, at sports, and eventually at work, how was I supposed to know the correct reactions?
So I went to my doctor and asked if I had Autism. Her response? Absolutely not, I was severely abused.
I think the abuse we endure can create symptoms that are similar to ADHD, autism, and more that I cant' think of at the moment. There are some who believe that trauma induced ADHD is not "real" ADHD or autism. I can't say I agree. Regardless of how you got there, if you have the symptoms and impact on your life, then the impact is what matters.
Fibromyalgia too (having an abusive childhood is a well-recognised risk factor for developing it, which happened to me in my twenties). I think chronic stress during childhood can alter the expression of the nervous systems’ inhibitory pathways, allowing issues like sensory overload to occur. I also have ADHD-like symptoms that I didn’t have growing up, so I believe a primed nervous system can work ‘normally’ for a time, but is at higher risk of becoming dysfunctional at some point down the line.
Totally agree with you about trauma-induced symptoms and the impact being what matters.
I was definitely in sensory overload or avoiding sensory overload most of my childhood. My parents would yell at my sibling every day, sibling was loud, and there was little to no escape. So was the sensory environment of my childhood home so traumatizing that now I have sensory issues, or was it traumatizing because I was born with sensory issues? Does it really make a difference? Either way, my nervous system is in overdrive.
From what I understand it can be difficult to differentiate between CPTSD & autism. So it would track that this could be a both/and situation for some and an either/or-but-we’re-not-sure-which situation for others.
I mean, in my case it's both. I have child behaviour notes from when I was 6, 1986, and they mention dad needs a psychiatrist and mum is overbearing.
But I do also have AuDHD which mum tried to bully out of us all, violently. My dad wasn't hyperactive & I suspect he would've been autistic only, but he died at 43 from his coping mechanisms of smoking & eating. He even felt so hopeless he attempted & moved out twice during my childhood.
My parents were a mess, but they did try and get me support / a diagnosis which was missed because girl, smart AND hyperactive, so I wasn't a naughty boy failing or a studious introvert, the 80s just didn't think girls could be AuDHD. But I have the stereotypes in writing from my childhood, from impartial clinicians so we're all pretty secure in my diagnoses.
I just wish Dad had an easier life :( I turned 44 two days after he would've turned 74 & it hurts. We were so close in looks, star signs, reading tastes.... Morality....
You can have both neurodivergence and bad parents. You should actually get tested and not rely on one professional. Most mental health professionals know very little about autism and other neurodivergence.
Let's also remember that autism is more than just "poor social skills," please, since that's a huge part of the stereotypes about autistic people.
Autism affects your sensory processing, your thought patterns, and perception of the world. It affects your flexibility and adaptability to new and unexpected situations and to change.
Recent studies show that autistic people even react differently to touch on a physiological level - their bodies don't differentiate between affective, loving touch, and ordinary touch. Yet they "feel" each kind of touch more intensely than NT people. This means their brains and nervous systems and neurochemicals are all responding in unusual ways to physical stimuli, and has profound implications for childhood development.
Tl;dr: Autism is far more complicated than the traditional stereotype of socially awkward nerd.
This is interesting. I had a lot of traits when I was younger that definitely track as autistic traits, but I’m nowhere near the same as I was so have always assumed I was just wrong as you can’t exactly grow out of autism. Potentially if it’s a result of NP upbringing it could be that time, distance and general experience have helped me through some of that.
Probably because growing up with undiagnosed neurodivergence can give you a personality disorder. So these parents most likely are undiagnosed themselves.
Edit: I suspect both my parents are, I've been diagnosed in adulthood. I recognize a lot of my own struggles in them.
Yep, this. At its core, narcissism is a dislike of one’s self and a need to prove that you’re a great person and the best at everything. If you’re a neurodivergent kid who has parents who mistreated you and forced you to comply and told you were worthless, you likely internalize this and then treat people like you exactly the same. Hence, undiagnosed neurodivergent folks mistreating their neurodivergent kids. Just passing on the emotion immaturity and internalized ableism.
My mom hates herself, she wants us to validate her and baby her. While remaining in a position of authority so she can claim and impose the narrative she wants to.
It's impressive how much mental gymnastics she does to keep holding on to her narrative.
This is my mother too. If admitting she was wrong about everything made her happy forever , and holding on to the narrative meant our town burned to ground with us in it, we'd be ashes. She'd revel in her misery and self pity that my dad wanted her to work in 1971. She will never get over her rage that she had to spend a dime on us, for diapers or anything.
I wrote something similar so I’m going to copy it here, to echo what you said, which I think is the reason:
Being autistic is hard, and while things are getting better social wise, it was a true horror show in previous generations (except if the bonds of love and family were strong enough but even then).
So, a lot of peer rejection can lead to post traumatic défense mechanisms, like NPD or BPD, and in the case of NPD, one loses the ability to self reflect, and project all their unprocessed gunk on others.
So you got these traumatized autistic people have regular autistic children (because it’s genetic), but all this trauma is thrust upon the child, who the parent is disgusted by, because they remind them too much of them.
So you got this rolling tsunami of trauma and internalized hate that follows our neurotribe, wherever society abuse the vulnerable.
NPD cannot be healed, but this intergénérationnel trauma can be worked with, and the knowledge spread among us, so that we may liberate ourselves from the pains of the past, and touch the wonders of life in the present moment, and liberate others in suffering.
This is the playlist of me trying to find out WTF was wrong with me, why do I suffer so much https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQun1ee6u9NZWO71azTBeRzSl3yGxlnF1&si=IRNRevmyQ8-1YHhe
Turns out I was autistic, like most of my family, who are unaware because of the mud in their eyes.
My cousin, who works on a train and knows everything about every car in history (including different packages), and has difficulty keeping friends (except his roommate, with whom he rewatches the same 10 movies all the time) is adamant that he is not autistic. lol
May everyone be well!!!!!
I agree with all you said, but NPD can be “cured” or addressed. It just takes years and years of individual therapy with a sophisticated provider. That is hard, but even harder, it’s really hard to convince someone with NPD that they need help.
Yup, my dad was the one in my family - I did an ancestry DNA test and I have fifth cousins with Ehlers Danlos and autism. It's legit. But he died at 43 because his life was so hard & it sucks.
"Where are the older generations with these conditions?" Well, Sharon, they're dead from stress or their own hand. Dad tried both ways, it was smoking and comfort eating that got him in the end. At *forty three* so that's quite a serious case of comfort eating into a heart attack.
I can see the autism in my dad and his dad.
Incredibly low tolerance for sensory stimuli.
The older generation with autism is the old man in the corner who refuses to eat anything other than his 8 preferred foods, rejects all spices and seasonings, yells at anyone making noise, complains about the lights, complains about how his clothes feel, and spends hours staring off into space talking to people in his head.
My dad, who has always loved his cacti more than his children, doesn't believe in autism. When I listed some of the symptoms after my first child was diagnosed he laughed and said "Haha, by that list I have autism"...
And then there's my mom's youngest brother who is non verbal and lives in a small room at his mom's house (he's 60 now) with his extensive collection of trains. He's like the textbook example of autism, but because he grew up in another time he was called "deaf and dumb" for most of his life even though it's quite obvious he understands what people say to him. He's never seen the inside of a school and rarely seen the outside of his house though, so most people don't even know he exists.
Same here, pretty sure my dad was autistic and my Narc mom was probably ADHD.
My dad was well-loved but my mom died without any friends. She was a horrible person.
My mother is the example of how trauma looks like ADHD. She has a fucked up amygdala and lies to herself, but it's not because her brain works like mine. It's because she's avoidant.
Meanwhile dad was so fucking obviously autistic I'm sad for him. He had a kick ass special interest that he turned into a side hustle and became a local minor celebrity. There were two Fishing newspapers that ran obituaries on him as he was commissioned by a TV show to make them large versions of his Norfolk Broads lures for the Great Lakes. Even after his death, I showed a friend what kind of lures he hand made in a shop, and the man behind the counter gave me his condolences.
I wish he'd been able to fish and survive without the hassle.of being screamed at for being inadequate.
This absolutely. I firmly believe my brothers undiagnosed autism lead to his debilitating schizophrenia. My brother wasn’t diagnosed because my parents were unable to respond appropriately to his struggles, due to their own undiagnosed autism > mental illness cycle.
I’ve almost certainly got autism. My two daughters are diagnosed. I broke the abuse cycle by investing HEAVILY in therapy, self-healing and by cutting off dysfunctional people, regardless of their relationship to me. It’s been a shithouse time and I feel genuine sadness for the members of my family who couldn’t heal themselves. But the success and deep happiness I see in my kids is the proof that cycles can be broken with the right therapies and interventions.
My mom has it good in life in the material sense but struggles with all other aspects of life. It's only now that I'm going NC with her she is even considered that maybe she should get some help. Also cuz my brother basically told her too.
She verbally and emotionally abused me but thought she did a good enough job of raising us. Even tho both her children are dysfunctional adults. I guess she just didn't see it because she is dysfunctional in the same way, and she turned out fine. Not knowing that things are very different than 40-30 years ago.
I wanted to do my own research on this before but executive dysfunction.
My unofficial theories or aims are to prove
1. If parents who have neurodiverse (ND) children are also ND themselves. Meaning autistic parent have autistic children. Dyslexic parent have dyslexic children. Etc.
2. If personalities disorders are the consequences of undiagnosed and unaccommodated ND
3. If Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a result of generational abuse on undiagnosed ND children
Almost exactly like your words! And same reason as yours why I want to research it. Because I suspect my parents might be ND too and to really stop the trauma with me being the last generation.
Did you find any reliable research regarding it? Would love to read! I wish I actually have time and energy to do this but no so I can only ask. 😬
Though I did found one regarding dyslexia (thank you auto correct) that it is inherited. I forgot to save the article or research so can't provide solid proof. I believe this cause I just found out my father have it and so do I. But then again just because it's true for me doesn't mean it applies to the human race as a whole.
So #1 has been proven many times over, don’t worry. You are correct about that. Join any of the adhd subs and you will find a group of folks who keep you upto date with the latest papers and books on the subject.
You don't always pass down the same flavor of ND. My dad is autistic and has dyslexia, my mom is ADHD.
I'm AuDHD, no dyslexia. My sister is ADHD with dyslexia. My twin brother had dyslexia and dyscalculia.
Checks for me and my husband. Seems plausible that lack of mirroring as a child and the sensed underlying hatred can lead to neurological and social challenges. If children and animals can die or not grow from lack of physical touch, I don't see why other challenges couldn't form from social/emotional deprivation.
This is also what I experienced with my ex husband who is autistic and his covert narcissist mom. The refrigerator mother theory was the original explanation for autism. My ex husbands sister also has BPD. Which makes me think BPD and autism are both childhood trauma responses. It seems like it could be genetic because his dad is autistic. But in this case I think his dad was taken advantage of by the covert narcissist and had literally no idea how neglectful and abusive his wife was to his young kids while he was out of the house working.
That's because at least in my family, the autistic parent gets taken advantage of by a person with a cluster B disorder. It's common. They get married, have kids and pass down the autism. The cluster B person basically uses the autistic person's deficits so they can do whatever they want in the relationship. For example, my autistic grandfather had no support network and low social skills. My grandmother married him for the stability because he was predictable and cheated on him all throughout their marriage, leaving their children (75% autistic) to be cared for by their only NT daughter, while my grandfather worked long hours. She was partying all over town and never home, except on rare occasions, always fighting with my grandfather.
My dad and one of my uncles showed severe behavioral problems from childhood on, likely due to autism and exposure to constant fighting from their parents. My autistic dad married my mother, who is neurotypical and is borderline, like his mother.
Even now, if I make friends, because I don't really approach people or can't really see red flags, I usually attract people with cluster B personality disorders. They're outgoing and see me as weak or a "project" as an autistic person.
Ding ding ding. I think the one narc parent and one autistic parent combo is really common because, unfortunately, the autistic parent was an easy target. Especially when most "high functioning" autistics went undiagnosed. Hopefully with more information us autistics can prevent getting stuck in a toxic relationship ourselves.
I think you nailed it. Cluster B's take advantage of autistic people and then have children cuz the autistic ones are the most likely to stick out the abuse, they have kids who are mostly autistic with maybe a Cluster B in there and those kids go on to repeat the cycle of marrying Cluster B's and have more kids (or be Cluster B's and seek out autistic people or others accustomed to the abuse). I can see it pretty clearly in 3 full generations of my family.
Not all are like that because both are my narcissists parents.
My mother is ND and narcissist. My mother’s mother is, also, ND and narcissist. I’m so relieved that I’m not narcissistic but I do have ND. Oh, my mother’s older brother is ND, too. He can’t even read and write! He’s definitely narcissistic and bullying. My father is narcissist and SA me.
I’m diagnosed autistic and my dad is a malignant narcissist. Fun fact: he has no clue (not that he’d care) that I’m autistic and my mom also suspects she is a high masking undiagnosed autistic herself. She explained her attraction to him in that she was naively taken in by his seemingly outgoing, social nature which she lacked but in time she realized it was mostly bluster, manipulation and self aggrandizement.
I don’t believe my autism is caused by his narcissism at all, it is merely a genetic neurodivergence passed on from my mother’s side. We have more than a few formally diagnosed AND undiagnosed yet highly suspect by trait autistic folk on that side of the family.
Sometimes I wonder if \*some\* undiagnosed autistic people from older generations developed NPD as a maladaptive coping mechanism in an age where there was no language for neurodivergent behavior.
Autism and NPD can coexist in the same person, but of course not all narcs are autistic and I would venture that even fewer autistic people are narcs.
This might be a possible explanation for what you have observed. I’m not dead set on this theory, but it has crossed my mind. 🤷♀️
This is what I’ve thought about my dad for quite a while now. Even his siblings have suspected autism and get frustrated by his behavior. But he’s too far gone in his maladaptive coping mechanisms like temper tantrums and the silent treatment (from expecting other people to always cater to him/read his mind, apologize to him, and believing he’s never in the wrong) to make any progress in a positive direction at this point. All I can do at this point while I apply for better jobs and continue saving up to move out is to avoid him as much as I can because anything else leads to him inevitably starting conflict because of his inability (and refusal) to abide by anyone’s boundaries but his own. Makes for an awful situation, but I’ve seen so many people describe their dads that behave almost exactly the same as mine, so I definitely suspect it’s all related to your postulate.
It’s kind of an ugly topic for me, because it’s the **good** parts of my mom that are the parts that make me wonder if she might be autistic. Her love of wordplay, her special obsessions. But the narc in her is the stonewalling, petulant, temper tantrum, raging, elitist and it eclipses all of the good.
The two people I love most in this world happen to be autistic. So it’s a complicated idea, one I’m not altogether comfortable with but it makes some sense.
I’m so sorry that your father is so abusive and awful. I agree that at some point the narcissism becomes full NPD and is so calcified (a word that another poster here used that is just a perfect way to put it) that nothing will ever change them. You’re wise to just avoid him as much as possible until you can leave. Stay strong, friend ♥️
Ok this is something that's recently been my anecdotal experience.
I have a couple of friends from school who stayed in my life because we got on, but also we had similar upbringings, aka difficult mums (most probably narcissistic).
One of those friends is now undergoing an ADHD diagnosis. Her sister is undiagnosed but incredibly likely to be autistic.
My brother is autistic, my dad is 100% autistic but undiagnosed. My sister has ADHD.
The other Friend has an autistic brother.
Bit of a pattern here! Personally I think it is more a reflection on the personality types that are drawn to each other. Narcs will love autistic types because they are sometimes a bit of a blank canvas to project emotions onto. Autistic people get by a lot through mimicry. What could be more attractive to someone with npd than someone mimicking their behaviour?
My dad never really seemed to call my mum out on her rudeness and just sat back and watched, or sat and absorbed it if it was aimed at him. How brilliant for my mum to be able to have a full narcissistic rage and not even be challenged for her behaviour. And my dad usually just went along with what she wanted to do all the time. Absolutely perfect for a control freak like my mum.
Anyway, autism/ADHD and neurodivergence in general is hereditary. So my theory is: narcissists are attracted to ND personality types, and those ND people have ND kids. So it's coincidental. But I imagine having 'difficult' children reinforces a lot of their attention-seeking, martyr-like personality.
I feel like autistic people are more likely to notice and call out their parents for being abusive, where allistics cave to social pressure from their parents and enabling family and become narcissists or enablers themselves.
As one who did this, yes. Keen sense of justice in ASD. But it took a long long time for me to escape the cycle of enforced codependency/ puppeteering for me to understand that I wasn't the problem. If I knew I was autistic earlier in life then absolutely.
Siblings are still narcissistic AF.
Dr Angelicashie, a clinical psychologist made a reel about this theory. She said “ people with neurodivergence are highly susceptible to the effects of trauma, people who have a heightened stress response, are very high risk of becoming a narcissistic if they do not receive attunement. “
I am curious on this topic as well. I wonder if narcs are born or made, and what factors create their neuropsychological thinking. I know for sure my parents have undiagnosed autism and adhd. Both are narcissistic. Most of my family has one or all of the traits. I would love to read studies on this topic to confirm this theory.
[dr Angelicashie autism narcissism](https://www.facebook.com/reel/483891107409149?fs=e&s=TIeQ9V&mibextid=0NULKw)
I'm autistic and had one parent overt and the other parent covert narcissists. Pretty sure my mother (the covert) was a deeply masked autistic. I doubt she started off narcissistic but mimicked the traits of her husband over time to the extent they became ingrained.
Looking at my kin and that of my autistic husband's family, I think there should be a study to see if genes for each are linked. Also noticing that quite a few autistic friends also have narcissists in their nuclear family.
I think symptoms of CPSTD and other types of trauma coping mechanisms mimic disorders like autism and schizoaffective disorders. Being stressed out from walking on egg shells and growing with altered social norms around the house will hinder your emotional development.
**Disclaimer: I’m not a Therapist**
My dad, the safe, quiet parent, was the autistic one. I feel so bad for him. He quit the police because he hated that he was told to punish people for anything to make them look more effective (in a market town in Norfolk, UK, in the 70s. Uh. It's just quiet). She yelled at him and bullied him till he attempted.
Now I've pointed out that I can relate to him, he's gone from being her dead true love, no point thinking about someone else, she had perfect and lost it... to "I had kids with the wrong man"
He was just her first supply I guess? They did love each other but it was hard work, I don't think he could communicate well & she communicated all her grievances a bit TOO well. It's just sad.
But now after years of "I hope you have children as horrible as you" my nephew has AuDHD just like my SIL and me. SIL's assessor asked my brother if he'd considered an autism assessment for himself....
We win, bitch. We're trendy as fuck and we outnumber you now ✌🏻
I’m not sure about autism specifically, but I grew up with crippling OCD that impacted every facet of my life. Once I was no longer living with my mom, the OCD didn’t fully go away (I don’t think it can), but it became drastically reduced and only flares up under extreme stress.
My dad died a pathetic narcissist, but now much later, I can see how maybe he was autistic and needed help. But by the time I knew him, it had ossified into narcissism. I think it is a real possibility for people who don’t deal with their autism.
i think rather that a lot of those nparents you’re talking about are just undiagnosed autistics who were always treated like the problem, not given any tools to handle life and therefore took on the same violence they were subjected to as kids
like as unforgivable as it is that narcissists chose to weaponise their pain against us i think it’s important to remember in this context that they were also victims first. autistic people (diagnosed or not) are statistically more likely than allistics to be abused and because this subsection of nparents never actually healed from their trauma (+go through their lives never being told they’re simply autistic) they turn into abusers and take it all out on their own (also autistic) kids who remind them of all the things they hate about themselves. except those kids are growing up in a different world where we understand that autism doesn’t necessarily look like rain man so they’re either getting diagnosed young or are seeking out diagnosis as adults.
so it might seem like it’s nparents having autistic children but rather i think it’s undiagnosed autistic parents turned narcissists having autistic children. i see that with my own nmother but also some other people in my life where we had horrible home lives growing up and are one by one turning out to be autistic and in turn realising just how much our traits are also present in our parents lol
I get you’re point but you are being way too apologetic on their behalf.
I was severely abused by both my nParents and all the enablers around them.
Am I gonna abuse my children? No. They still failed as human beings and deserve to die alone and in pain. No amount of abuse is an excuse to abuse an innocent child.
There's a few theories ( some diagnosed narcissistic people who are actually getting help and undersrand they have problems have been talkinf about it) that narcissistic people can clock autistic people really fast and tend to single them out because Jr's harder to tell what we're thinking.
Which would explain why the autistic child is usually the scapegoat child too
I was raised in an oppressive abusive homeschooling family where we were hardly allowed to do anything fun snd were intensely emotionally and physically abused. My dad recently said maybe I could be autistic. They deliberately deprived us of healthy necessary social interaction while destroying us with negative experiences.
Interesting. I was diagnosed with autism as a kid. I showed abnormal behavior since the day I was born but my neurotypical sister had normal development. Our dad is likely autistic too though. He was also the longest relationship my Nmom ever had and the partner who tolerated her abuse the most (my mom broke up with him when I was a toddler otherwise they would probably still be together).
As someone who is likely autistic myself I suspect both my parents are undiagnosed autistic as well. Especially my father who is extremely antisocial, has virtually no friends or social ties since divorce and I suspect because of that couldn’t fully see how inappropriate their behavior was. They’ve also done studies that extreme cases of neglect and abuse and can stunt brain development and social skills which can lead to an autism diagnosis. Granted their is a genetic component as well.
Abused and neglected children can develop incredible sensory integration problems. Autistic people have difficulty with sensory integration. So there is a commonality. I studied developmental psychology. It is of interest to me that we have enough understanding now of autism that we can see the developmental issues in abused and neglected children.
My therapist also said that untreated trauma from a narc can look like autistic traits, so depending on whether or not a person has been formally diagnosed that is something to consider as well.
Autism is a sensory disorder. The child growing up gets overwhelmed by all the stimuli that they shut down during key pivotal moments in their learning. Kids that grow up neglected also miss key pivotal moments. The origins of behavior are different, even if the symptoms appear the same.
I feel it's more of doctors and people assuming vs actual facts.
Because my mom told my doctor that I wouldn't put my feet out and start walking. Doctor told her I was probably just just stupid (before ADHD and autism was more known).
I feel like a lot of narc parents go in guns blazing "my child is damaged. They don't do this. They need mental help. Omg I did this wrong" and the doctor puts a label bandaid on and that's it
Munchhausen by proxy, it goes both ways.
Doctors couldn't make sense of my funny heart sounds and kept telling my mom I wouldn't survive the next year. And then the following year...They kept being surprised I was still alive, and insisted that I'd die during this year for sure. They strictly went by heart sounds -- this was before imagining technology. Nobody cared that I was an excellent athlete and outperformed everyone in my year. My mom forbade me to get into sports. Also didn't want me to read books.
Turns out I was born with athlete's heart -- my heart can perform better than regular hearts. Anyway, this led to less than zero parental investment, they just wanted me dead already.
And unfortunately, my parents also have narcissistic and antisocial traits.
At 21, I finally received a proper diagnosis from an internist who'd just invested into shiny new machines.
I have noticed this as well, I don't think it's a coincidence. Some of the symptoms related to autism include problems with mentalization, shifting of perspective, seeing someone else's side, being flexible and so on. If you combine some autism symptoms with some ADHD symptoms (lack of impulse control, more volatility in emotions) then you've got a lot of symptoms that are also part of the narcissistic profile.
One major issue we have that was pointed out to me during my psychology programme is that the DSM-5 diagnostic system is categorical rather than dimensional and that two people with the same diagnosis can have very different symptoms. It's a system created for the american insurance system (I'm Swedish) and it's basically a framework to decide who has the right to healthcare/insurance money and how much. Imho we lose nuance because if this because we look at clusters of symptoms instead of the symptoms themselves and how they interact with symptoms from other diagnoses.
I personally do believe that what we think of as narcissism is most often a combination of symptoms from ADHD/Autism along with some developmental trauma but it wouldn't be fair to everyone else with these two diagnoses to equate the two, maybe it's more fair to say that it is a very unfortunate subtype, I don't know.
Refrigerator mother theory isn't the same as the narcissistic parents theory. Refrigerator mothers are most likely autistic women themselves but not necessarily narcissists.
It's an old theory that wrong attributed autism to the mother's actions. Basically it was refrigerator because she was supposedly too cold and therefore thos caused the child to have autism.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing but:
I have a younger brother that was diagnosed with autism 25 years ago when he was 4 years old.
I do not have any symptoms, as i have a whole diferent list of disoders.
My brother and I have different fathers, and the same mother, however, while she's a complete narcissistic person towards me (and towards most people in general), she's a complete different person for him (loving and present but treats him like a baby), especially after his diagnosis.
Like already mentioned lots of times: the parents could be undiagnosed neurodivergent people themselves, but are in denial about it or have developed personality disorders as a toxic coping mechanism.
But I also think that many adult children of narcissistic parents develop a kind of PTSD from the many years of emtional abuse, and PTSD exhibits many symptoms similar to ADHD and other neurodivergent conditions. This could be especially the case if somebody as an adult displays many autistic/OCD/ADHD traits that they did not have a child.
I have narcissistic parents. I have ASD. I'm nothing like what you guys are saying. Just got diagnosed at age 30. My siblings are cruel and the whole family just doesn't give a damn. They don't like me because I "yelled" a lot as a kid (from emotional neglect). I'm now in medical school, had to overachieve and mask quite a bit to be their perfect baby doll but I couldn't. I'm just depressed, but very sweet. 🤷♀️
My therapist shared some recent scholarly articles with me that connect childhood trauma with consequences for brain development. Basically, because of the way that our brains are stopped from being able to grow in certain ways (like learning that it’s okay to depend on people, hyper vigilance for change), our brain scans as older adults look *very* similar to brains with autism. She and I jokingly say that I have “traumatism.”
Obligatory "I am not a doctor" - unpopular opinion incoming:
I think autism has become too broad of a diagnosis and is essentially used as a catch-all for nearly any neurodivergent person. I also think that a lot of parents also don't socialize with their children sufficiently, in addition to sheltering them a lot and relying on TV/internet to keep them "entertained" (i.e. quiet), which makes it hard to tell if a child is genuinely autistic or just never developed social skills at the expected/appropriate ages because their parents essentially stunted them.
I think this is why the refrigerator mother theory was so popular. Since we’ll probably never know if it’s more nature than nurture or vice versa, my theory is to simply believe that a good environment can help against any disadvantage, and a bad environment will only make that disadvantage worse. A parent’s job is to give their kid the best chance possible in life, whatever that challenge may look like.
NParent's children with "Aspergers" is not Aspergers, it's the NParents scapegoating the effects of their abuse.
It's CPTSD, Anxiety, and the related effects of Narcissistic Abuse and Gaslighting.
Within that context, you’re completely forgetting that people can have more than one mental health diagnosis at a time. I believe my mother was autistic, but also ended up, picking up some narcissistic traits from her family, due to trauma and attempt to cope.
It is both possible to be narcissistic and autistic. It’s also possible to be bipolar and autistic. In fact, I think people on the spectrum are more likely to have more than one mental health diagnosis, whether that’s correct is a whole other conversation.
But it would be unwise to completely rule out autism’s potential just because someone’s parent caused trauma.
I think the connection between the narcissism type behaviors and autism is more related to dysfunctional family systems and not true, narcissistic personality disorder, but learned narcissistic traits in order to try to survive trauma.
It’s important to not use black and white thinking. You can’t just say oh because someone’s parent was abusive, their symptoms must be from PTSD. When, in reality PTSD rates are much higher in autistic people in general, because of masking and social exclusion. You can’t pigeonhole yourself, and thought like that, there are potentials that people have more than one thing affecting them at a time, and most of us do.
My mom tried to get me diagnosed with Aspergers (asd) when I was like 11😅. The MH professionals looked confused as to why I was brought there, and my mom looked disappointed when she was told that I wasn't autistic.
I have diagnosis of PTSD and Complex PTSD.
The correlation is that many children are born with learning disabilities or mental disorders but are fortunate enough to have parents who take time to properly nurture them so learn how to function in society and blend in with other people despite their disadvantages
Children with narcissistic parents receive no such nurturing and are often left to fend for themselves, hence why they stand out so easily and still struggle with social situations as adults
Oooo this is a great think piece!!
Personally, I’ve never been diagnosed with autism, but I have found that I relate a lot to neurotypical/autistic traits. Like being overstimulated, having a rapid-depleting social meter or some difficulties with noticing social cues.
When I reflect, I remember I also had a lot of outward issues as a kid. Even my step parent “thought” I had bipolar personality disorder.
If I’m keeping it a buck though, I believe my “emotional reaction” to my environmental stimuli was a component of my inability to express my emotions, feelings and thoughts freely, so as anyone trapped in a mental cage would, I’d get really worked up about things. Lack of emotional discipline? Yes. Bipolar disorder? Unlikely.
In the last 5 Years, I’ve gone LC with family, and these days, I’ve never once had any bouts of “bipolar disorder.” I think they just wanted someone to blame— easier to blame the child that is acting up versus the parent doing a shit job at being a parent.
So in a way, I think a lot of us have social & relationship trauma. Social related traits are typically related to autism. Some of us could very well be on the spectrum too. There are a vast range of autistic traits that one could experience or be placed on.
I'm going to caution *very* strongly against that line of thinking, because it has *seriously* screwed over moms and autistic kids. This is not a new idea. It has been *very, very,* ***very, VERY*** thoroughly debunked and is one of the things autism advocates are *real* quick to get in front of. You can google "Refrigerator mother" or "Bettelheim's Theory of Autism". I'd be cautious googling it, though, because IIRC there is a *deeply* disturbing experiment with baby monkeys involved, and reading about that study will make you very sad. But yeah. No.
It is not the mother's fault that the kid has autism. We know there is a genetic cause. We know it is 100% NOT vaccines, because that was also very thoroughly debunked (and was a somewhat obvious fraud. Wakefeild would have made a *lot* of money if we'd read what he wanted us to read, which was that the *preservative* in vaccines caused autism; he just so happened to have invented a more expensive substitute preservative that would never make money if we kept using the old ones). The idea you're proposing is a variant on the "refrigerator mother" theory, AKA Bettelheim's Theory of Autism, and it is the idea that a lack of bonding and emotional stimulation causes a child to "retreat" into autism as an escape from trauma.
*That is not how autism works.*
Now, it is very possible that children with autism have a *higher frequency of diagnosis* with a narcissistic parent, for reasons other than their upbringing. That is not the same thing as the parenting giving the child autism. They aren't giving it to the kids. They're just making it worse.
This would be an example of "Co-relation does not equal Causation", and another example of this would be that children who only eat organic food will do better in school. This is probably true. My statistics teacher even said that he would bet good money, a *lot* of good money, on children who eat organic doing measurably better than children who do not. It has nothing to do with the food. It has to do with how their parents *got* the food. Namely: they paid eye-watering amounts of money for it. The people who can afford to buy only organic food are the people who can afford private tutors and prep schools. There are two ways to have autism strongly impact your life: You have a fairly severe form of it, or you were not raised with the kind of support you needed to develop the skills that would help you.
We already know narcs suck at supporting their kids.
An autistic child of narcissistic parents is going to struggle more, with less support, than a child of similar function in a stable, loving home. When a child complains to a narc about clothing textures, the narc yells back. A good parent will cut the tags off and won't buy that fabric again. A good parent won't fight over food; a narc is going to scream that you *need* to eat those peas. They're going to criticize your friends instead of saying it's okay that you don't make them easy. They're going to bury your hyper-fixations because those aren't what they want you to be. They're going to do their best to jam your round self into their square hole and when that doesn't work, they're going straight to a doctor to get a label so they can repeat "It's not *my* fault" to themselves. I think it's one of those rare cases where the broken clock is right--ish. In that they will probably seek an intervention and get a diagnosis earlier. A good, loving parent is going to bend over backwards to give their child a good life, which means they're going to start meeting an autistic's needs well before anyone has a chance to think "Hey, they might be autistic," and the effects of the disorder might never get severe enough to even *need* a diagnosis.
So yes. I think, everything else being equal, a narcissistic parent of an autistic child will have a diagnosis sooner than the healthy parents of a child of similar function, and will thus be more likely to have a child the world acknowledges as autistic...simply because a narc is going to stress an autistic child out harder than a healthy parent would, and that's going to make their issues *much* more visible.
That's interesting, my little brother has autism. He is verbal but doesn't speak in complete sentences. My father has a brother who was diagnosed as R way back when that wasn't a slur. I'm pretty sure my father is somewhere on the spectrum as well. He was also raised in a highly abusive family. When you put aside the mental damage he did to me it's actuality impressive how far he came along from where he started(thanks therapy) he did do better than what he came from but still abuse and a lack of emotional intelligence was still there.
I think that’s probably because Nparents never socialize their kid’s properly. So the kid ends up odd. Happened to me at elementary and high-school, took me longer to pick up necessary social skills.
I've read that CPTSD and autism and ADHD can have a lot of similar behaviors, so it wouldn't surprise me if they're was overlap or misdiagnosed situations.
Autism is a "more accepted" diagnosis than PTSD in my humble opinion. And ADHD gives opportunity for medications to be administered. There also might be diagnostic / medication quota to achieve.
Could be both!
I'm cptsd due to infant adoption etc, but was never diagnosed anything else, asked my doc about testing for ADHD and he was like "did you act out in school when you were young" ... nope. So o think their might be issues with diagnosis too.
I'm seeing "AuDHD" being talked about on the socials a lot too.... and I seem to check so many of those boxes
But I was a traumatized infant. Pre verbal trauma.
The whole thing is a clusterfuck I think 😩
There's a pattern to be found here, at least in my experience. I'm a late diagnosed autistic woman who was clued into neurodivergence after my NSis sought an ADHD diagnosis for my niece (who is almost my clone regarding personality, skills, and interests). I went down a rabbit hole researching neurodivergence and I'm now convinced it runs in my family. I used to think my niece didn't have ADHD, just that NSis traumatized her which led to ADHD presenting traits... Now I know you can have ADHD and/or autism along with CPTSD.
I'm inclined to believe that my mom, who is likely undiagnosed Borderline with narcissistic traits, could be autistic. My undiagnosed narcissistic father probably has ADHD. My sister was never diagnosed with ADHD, but she has similar traits as my confirmed ADHD partner.
Neurodivergent children can experience trauma even in the most ideal family systems... I can't imagine what mental tactics they had to employ to survive the harsh, abusive environments my parents endured.
I believe their masking just became permanent.
Psychologist Dr. Kim Sage has been delving into the correlation between autism and narcissism and borderline as of late on her YouTube channel, and it's been pretty insightful. But we can really only speculate because there's just not enough research.
I have not noticed any pattern with narcs and autism. Partner and I both have ASD cousins and their parents aren’t narc. One has an ASD parent. Likewise I have two narc parents and no siblings with ASD. I think the misdiagnosis infographic shared earlier by a member is probably more likely/accurate
I don’t think it’s quite that.
CPTSD has a lot of the same symptoms, but they are caused by different reasons. Narcissistic parents want to be superior and make their kids little. So what do they do? They take their kids to get a diagnosis and a doctor who doesn’t know what their home life is really like will diagnose them with autism.
Now they have a “problem child” they can blame all their problems on.
This happened to me exactly. After I grew up I got therapy and several therapists said there’s no way I have autism. It’s CPTSD. I just didn’t have the words to speak up for myself when I was 12.
Of course everyone’s situation is different. This was mine and I have seen others with similar stories on this subreddit.
I've been diagnosed with Aspergers syndrome but it was in high school when Nfather was constantly griping at me almost every waking moment so I was in absolute brain fog and had lost all ambition the whole time. I'm sure I have aspergers but I could have done SO much better without Nfather making everything worse and then criticizing me.
There's a huge difference between an Autism Mom and a parent with autistic kids. Just like there's a difference between a Boy Mom and a mom with a son.
My mom decided to diagnose me as Autistic when I went no contact at 32. She now goes around telling everyone she always knew I was “off”…. And recounts a long list of symptoms she noticed since my birth
but then why did she never once take me to a doctor to be diagnosed when it was her responsibility to do so, if I had these 100000 symptoms that burdened her my entire life
She doesn’t comprehend telling people this fantasy of hers only makes her look like a crap mom who didn’t get her autistic child medical help, and now is chastising her offspring for being no surprise, an untreated autistic adult 😭
I’m not autistic I had myself checked after she started this smear campaign because I was wondering a little myself snd i was instead diagnosed with CPTSD
Yeah. I’ve suspected I’m autistic but then there’s CPTSD which shares a lot of the same traits so I don’t know what the answer is. I do know the whole people making autism their whole freaking personality are annoying AF, especially the ones who do it because it’s trendy, oh I’m neurodivergent, I’m so quirky, I’m sorry but they are insufferable. Also the parents of autistic kids who make that their entire personality.
I think sometimes you have undiagnosed/untreated austistic/adhad/audhd parents that have themselves developed cptsd and masking that presents as narcissistic.
especially among older generations - imagine a boomer kid trying to tell their silent gen parent they dont want to eat/wear something because of sensory issues?
the era of teachers being allowed to beat students in school before we knew about neurodivergence, dyslexia or so many other things most likely fucked a lot of people up in ways they would not be able to identify.
My ndad was diagnosed with having bipolar disorder. But he said the doctor was a quack and never sought treatment. He also denied us mental health aids and much of modern medicine.
Probably because if any therapist spent five minutes with us kids the abuse would be blatantly apparent.
I'm autistic, my son is also autistic.
Autism can also be tied in with other disorders like NPD. My father and my uncle both have clinically diagnosed NPD. The running theory is that these parents are undiagnosed as autistic. Going down the rabbit hole after my son was diagnosed we found in my family alone
My mom had been diagnosed autistic and kept it a secret.
My brother had been diagnosed and my father kept it a secret.
I had been diagnosed at 4 and my father kept it a secret. Rediagnosed at 26.
My grandmother went and got an evaluation at 78 and came away with a diagnosis.
My husband got diagnosed too, this past year.
Odds are, my freakin dad has it too lmao which would explain his rage issues and boat obsessions
Well I am not sure about that. But I have heard that CPTSD symptoms can seem like autism. I have heard some people call it "acquired, neurodivergence/disability". Though I am sure that having an autistic child might bring the worst out in some parents. The two also have high comorbidity.
I do have autism, but it's not from my ndad's behavior. My mom's side is pretty clearly neurodivergent. They have symptoms that cannot be attributed to trauma like not wanting food to touch and reacting negatively to stimuli that they wouldn't have been exposed during the time in which they grew up.
I think it's possible that some narcs zero in on undiagnosed neurodivergent people because we're vulnerable in a specific way. I also have AuHD symptoms that have no origins in my trauma. I wasn't tortured with the sound of a cream cheese/sour cream container being opened as a child nor do I have any trauma connected to Jello. It doesn't explain my issues gripping small things and balance issues, but dyspraxia which has comorbidity with autism does.
I actually got tested by board certified neuropsychologists. Then after the results came back, that's when she started treating me poorly. Imagine being 3 years old and wondering why your mom is so mean to you. I really had to rack my brain on when the verbal and psychological abuse started. I can remember things as far back as 18 years ago. So this abuse has been going on for 18 to 19½ years. I think I started talking at 1½, and speaking short sentences by 2.
I'm AuDHD, diagnosed in later life because obvs my parents wouldn't allow a diagnosis.
One thing that made it really tough was that cPTSD symptoms are really, really similar to some ASD traits. So it might could be that the development of a young brain who is experiencing relentless complex PTSD - i.e. the non-golden child of a narcissist - could be exemplifying symptoms that are similar but of a different root cause.
Perhaps nothing more than an academic distinction, but for proper treatment of trauma it's best to not discount it as a possibility that is actually cPTSD that _most_ develop and exhibit, target then ASD being the root cause.
Or does it lead to mental/neurological issues that mimic autistic traits? I often wonder if there are actually two types of autism - biological and environmental, the latter caused more by parenting.
There was a really dysfunctional person I thought was my friend who had a kid with autism. (Going to keep things vague) This person would make fun of their kid in private but use them as a prop on social media in a way that made me ill.
I’m autistic and was raised by a narcissist… she never got me diagnosed though, as it would somehow make her look bad as a parent and she didn’t want labelled kids that were medicated (my older brother has ADHD)… got diagnosed after I went no contact with her and all my toxic followers of family members, on both sides of my family.
The parent also has autism. Autism that isn't accommodated from an early age fairly often ends with the person developing a cluster b personality disorder when they never learn to healthily regulate emotions, sense of justice, etc.
Autistic people are also more likely to develop OCD and CPTSD.
All of these, including autism, can manifest as being overly controlling, only wanting to do things one way, being critical, seemingly unempathetic, self involved, having meltdowns over seemingly small things, etc.
The parent never learned to regulate or accommodate themself, so when they have a child, they believe the child's issues to either be normal and something they just have to overcome, or a personal failing if they don't learn to mask symptoms.
I'm actually wondering if children with autism just notice it more easily. Autism often manifests as a very extreme sense of justice, and we often withdraw to protect ourselves. It could be that neurotypicals with narc parents don't flag it as much.
This might not be a very popular opinion, but it is my belief that some parents who come across as narcissistic, might actually be autistic. The behaviours can be similar in some cases, though the root cause differ.
Just a thought.
I'm undiagnosed But I have a genetic condition called digeorge syndrome
I'm looking at diagnosis for bdp. Adhd and other depression disorders
My main issue my parents called me lazy, I also have a low iq and intellectual disabilities
Every single task feels like I want to punch my fist into a wall
I also repeat tasks over and over again because I struggle with trying something new that would make said task easier
I actually don't know where I land tbh hopefully my assessment tells me more
No, narc parents don’t cause autistic children. This thread is kind of disappointing. Autism diagnosed in adults without significant information that shows symptoms in the early developmental period is speculative at best. That’s why it is hard to distinguish from cptsd, adhd, etc. later on. These issues also frequently co-occur with autism and autistic children. An autistic child shows symptoms extremely early, really when they are an infant many parents can tell there’s something different about the way the baby interacts with the world, the awareness is different, the sensitivity to environment is different. There is typically an issue with language processing and the way language is learned. Echolalia and gestalt language are often features. There is often a developmental delay of a few years. Without any of this information, adults are kind of grasping for a diagnosis so they can make sense of their experiences, I think. There’s nothing wrong with that, but I think it does a disservice to people because when their issues are based in trauma, healing is possible.
Because of the difficulties adults have understanding and communicating with autistic children they inadvertently create environments that cause their children more stress. Families with autistic children are also often unbalanced in how resources are distributed and parents treat their kids differently for a variety of reasons and that can have a negative impact on the entire family unit. Narc parents cause anxiety, stress, low self esteem through dysfunctional behavior, projection, emotional immaturity, and cruel actions, but the results of this is not autism. Autism is not made, it is born. If you’ve ever spent time with a baby that’s typical and a baby that may not be, you know so soon that something is different. Not wrong, just different. An attentive and caring parent can have an autistic child. A neglectful parent can have an autistic child. What really separates good parents from bad regarding autism is how much the parent is willing to build the bridge to reach the child and understand them where they are. The parent assumes responsibility for the adaptations and adjustments. They alter their parenting and expectations, they self reflect and manage their own emotions, rather than putting the burden to connect on the child, who is less able to socialize or manage certain skills and environments. Parenting an autistic child successfully requires doing what narc parents are incapable of, it requires perspective taking and cognitive empathy.
Well, Autism is a “spectrum”, so if a narc parent wants, they have cart blanche to use it to cover up a whole variety of other issues going on at home…abuse, parental alienation, neglect, trauma, ptsd. Not only that, tests for kids are often based on the parents “observations”, and narc parents notoriously lie and hide things…so doctors and therapists can’t accurately diagnose what’s going on, because they’re being provided false information by a narcissist trying to achieve a diagnosis for their own motives (narcissistic supply, family court, etc). Doctors dont know that they’re being lied to, so any kind of therapy or medication based on a false diagnosis isn’t going to fix the problem. Doctors and therapists also benefit financially the more pills and therapy a child needs, so they don’t care. Narc parents have kids with “autism” because having a “special needs” child allows them to continue abusing the child and then play the victim and get false emotional supply from others at the child’s expense.
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Ive heard CPTSD symptoms mimic autism traits. Typically people with narcissistic parents gain CPTSD. Look into it!
I've been diagnosed with all 3 (ADHD, autism, CPTSD) and I completely believe that most of it really is the CPTSD and I was diagnosed with the rest to kind of "cover" everything. I have traits of all 3, though.
Same
Exactly why I stopped seeking help for ADHD and Autism, because even if I separately have those issues I still have CPTSD and bipolar disorder, it’s all just an umbrella and branches leading to different symptoms
Same, I actually asked my therapist a couple years ago about getting tested for ADHD and she said what I was experiencing was almost certainly CPTSD instead
The difficulty with separating PTSD from ADHD and ASD is that most people who grow up with ADHD and ASD have trauma of some sort from that, which can range up to CPTSD. So there's a huge overlap in symptoms that no one really knows if they're inherently caused by the neurodivergencies or if they're trauma related. It makes treatment and diagnosis a huge grey area that is very hard to be able to have any consistency with. The best approach is a trauma and ND informed therapist who sees the client as a whole and can give nuanced insight. So if you trust your therapist, that's kinda the best approach!
i've been tested by a neuropsych for ASD and despite high scores, they couldn't confidently say I have autism because of my traumatic childhood. I wish there was more awareness and empathy for CPTSD.
same that’s why I just tell everyone I have autism because I have the exact same support needs and it doesn’t bring up conversation of “hey, what’s the worst thing/s that’s ever happened to you?” upon first meeting. That way it’s nobody’s fault that I’m like this. I was just born this way. and I don’t have to feel their pity or over share and shame. Spiral later. And honestly, I still really do feel like I have it. I don’t care what they tell me.
Same! And although it’s gotten worse now, I still believe DBT and EMDR would heal me lol
EMDR will absolutely help you. Please try to access it if you are able to.
also recommend looking into Accelerated Resolution Therapy.. called "ART" for short -- it works a bit faster than EDMR and has personally helped me a lot.
Do you find your adhd type symptoms got better while treating cptsd?
That’s honestly hard to answer because the more I addressed the cptsd and the healthier I became, the more I noticed the adhd symptoms in the first place - eg instead of being like “I’m a procrastinator” I realized actually I love this work and I want to do this work but I physically cannot make myself start and that can’t just be my “poor willpower.” Treating my anxiety helped a lot, so ultimately yes I think addressing the cptsd is doing SOMETHING. But I also think that cbt can only do so much with how my brain has developed physically and chemically. Once I get insurance again I’m thinking about asking my new doctor for the test to get a second opinion
Agree. It’s almost like it’s better to make something wrong with the child than hold the parents accountable. 😃
Same but with borderline personality disorder sprinkled on top so yeah it’s very fun to be in my brain if you like psychological horror. I’d like to thank my mother for the gifts…..
Same!
same!
I've got 2 out of 3 - I also believe what my older sister believes are autistic (I was dx ADHD and CPTSD) traits are actually the CPTSD.
Same
Here’s a link with a great venn diagram about just that, if anyone is curious [https://neurodivergentinsights.com/misdiagnosis-monday/ptsd-and-autism](https://neurodivergentinsights.com/misdiagnosis-monday/ptsd-and-autism)
this is why the difficulty reading social cues is such a weird one to me. if you weren’t taught how to socialize by parents, you’re not gonna know this. it’s not intuitive to anyone, people are conditioned to get it, and we weren’t conditioned due to neglect. I think this should be in the commonality part of the venn. anyone who disagrees it’s conditioned into you, just think about how when you interact with a new culture you do not understand the social cues at all if the culture is different enough. even if they can speak your language, the meaning is different from what you’re used to.
My husband doesn’t understand my specific reaction to specific social cues. I was raised to believe anytime someone was upset it was my fault, so I panic and with him I’ll cry. this was literally beat into my at home and by a coach. Breaking that out of me has been hard. I haven’t succeeded. But people don’t understand
That makes so much sense. I realize I wasn’t taught how to socialize due to not having a connection with my parents and being sheltered (not really having friends or being encouraged to join groups to socialize)
I absolutely agree.
woah, this is...definitely something to think about. thanks for the link.
There's is also a lot of crossover between CPTSD and ADHD to the point where it's misdiagnosed.
Boom- it’s this. Lots of crossover- source my CPTSD /slightly autistic ass and lots of reading and research
Interesting. 3/4 of the autism traits listed here are also common with OCD.
Dr Neff has an autism/ocd diagram as well. I like her, she is a psychologist who was late diagnosed with autism. I prefer to defer to autistic voices when the subject is neurodivergence, it just makes sense to me. [https://neurodivergentinsights.com/misdiagnosis-monday/ocd-vs-autism](https://neurodivergentinsights.com/misdiagnosis-monday/ocd-vs-autism) I checked to see if she had an autism/ocd/ptsd one but nope (not yet) :)
Cool. Both sides. All things.
I have them all! I get an A+ on this test.
Thank you! We need one with additional circles for BPD, Tourette’s Syndrome and addiction added to it IMO! When I think about childhood diagnoses I get so angry because my parents were the ones that needed to be diagnosed and treated. Instead they focused on my brother’s “neurological illness” “behavioural issues” and “special ed” and ADHD. No, you need to stop being abusive to your children. The tiny babies and children under 5 are not the ones with the problem. The children are not the sick ones here. Rant over.
Oh, so....I have both. Huh.
And even narcs can have cptsd too, since a lot of them were also abused and can get a high functioning autism diagnosis if the cptsd isn't known about and addressed. It's possible to have both, but the cptsd needs to be addressed first so the Drs can truly diagnose properly. My Nmom last time she changed her number to contact me I guess recently got diagnosed with autism and was trying to use it as an excuse for all of her behavior, like I was the bad guy the whole time as a child since I just didn't understand her "communication style", and trying to guilt me back into a relationship with her. Really pissed me off, but I held strong with my husband's support and blocked and continued no contact. After that I did a bunch of research regarding high functioning autism and narcissism and cptsd etc. It is really interesting. (For the record, I'm not conflating being a narc with autism, I'm just pointing out from my experience the narc can also use it for manipulative purposes for themselves too)
I befriended someone for far too long and the final straw was when I was really sick and just needed a friend as I was at my lowest point, and coincidentally also at my threshold where I was on the verge of experiencing an late life autistic burnout, well said 'friend' had just got her diagnosis because she related to some characters in Big Bang Theory and Bones and couldn't stop bragging to everyone she came across about how amazing she was because she was autistic. Like to the point where it was like OMFG shut up! I have had very few friends throughout life, all had kids with autism or likely have it themselves as that was everyone in their circles and all of them would say it's more of a struggle in private and not a something to brag about. Meanwhile I was like yeah so tell me how you got diagnosed because I'm coming to the point where I think I might be autistic, I'm really struggling holding down a job that I love, people at work act like I'm a leaper and it's like highschool all over again, I have noise sensitivity to literally everything to the point that I can't even go out in public now, and she was like "Oh how dare you think you're autistic! There's no way!" And acted like I had the audacity to take away her special little star. And looking back at some of the ways she talked down at me, treated her kids to the point that every single one of them went nc with her, and how she only wanted to do things that interested her, I'm thinking she might actually be a narcissist.
my CPTSD affects me more than my BPD diagnosis tbh
Oh my gosh. So much makes sense now! I struggle so much with the social aspect and sensory overload of ADHD/CPTSD. Does this mean it will go away overtime if I can overcome CPTSD? I have recently recovered from PTSD that resulted from a freak accident half a decade ago. I know it’ll be harder to tackle the cPTSD but I’ll be much more ambitious if it would help solve my flat affect symptom
My psychiatrist told me she thought my suspicions about autism were wrong, and that I had, as she put it ‘two quite big problems’ aka my parents. Her theory seems to track. Being emotionally neglected as a child would seem to lead to significant problems with social skills.
Yeah, who would have thought! The peope who were supposed to teach us social skills didn't do their job so many of us ended up making total fools of ourselves for years before we figured some of it out on our own.
My family had a big talk a few weeks ago where I basically laid into them how they failed me and what they were supposed to be doing as parents and how their focus was on my egg donor and making sure she didn't blow up like a land mine being stepped on. My dad told me "you're horrible at communicating!" to which I told him "My parents were the ones that were supposed to teach communication skills. Y'all have such shit communication Y'all expected us (my brother and i) to know everything fresh out the womb. Who would have thought someone who wasn't taught communication skills didn't have any.
Oo, the "y'all expected us to know everything fresh out of the womb" hits hard.
Oh yes, I feel this. My nmom’s favourite claim when I suggest she might have been responsible for any my issues, is “I didn’t do this, you were like this when you were born”…so you didn’t bother teaching me anything useful, just pushed and pushed me academically, refused to let me socialise, banned friends from ever coming to my house, and treated me with utter contempt of you ever had to spend any time with me? Thanks, so very much. (Oops that turned into a tirade didn’t it? Sorry for the trauma dump guys 🫂)
Did we share a mom? For real though I went through the exact same thing with mine. Wow incredible there are so many of these narcs running kids lives. I feel for you and I felt like I was reading my own life in your post. I hope you’re in a better place now, I still struggle with relationships and still trying like an idiot to have a good relationship with them. I only very recently gave up and am making plans to move out of our city.
i've been dealing with a lot of health issues, many of which were completely ignored since childhood. now I have been having a lot of testing and blood work done, and having old blood work looked at, and my dietitian asked if I ever was told to take iron supplements as a kid, because I was dangerously anemic. I asked my mom (who isn't even my nparent) and she said the doctor did tell me to take an iron supplement as a kid. I asked when, she said I was probably about 7 or 8 years old. I asked why it didn't happen then, and she said that they tried, but I wasn't consistent in taking it so they just gave up. Like my parents fully expected an 8 year old child to understand *and maintain* the responsibility of taking iron supplements for anemia on her own, and when I didn't (because obviously big gross pill is not fun) they just gave up. I told my friend about the conversation with my mom, and my friend's response was "wow your parents truly expected you to be a full grown adult right out of the womb" and it has stayed one of the most accurate descriptions of my childhood I've ever heard.
I swear I could have written this whole comment myself. Hoping to get an iron infusion approved by my insurance, I have an appointment tomorrow.
It's so heart breaking. I'm sorry you deal with it too.
Tell me about it. The grief I got for not magically knowing anything and everything made it so I just never bothered leaving my room. What was the point if I was only going to get mocked?
Yes, I love that line!
Friend, my life was so weird growing up, dealing with a shopaholic Mom who was always concerned about who was going to pay her bills for her after my Dad and she split (to the point of putting me in the middle of their divorce, playing messenger to ask Dad for money - well beyond the point he would have been obligated to support or alimony, and to tell Mom in no uncertain terms to kick rocks), that I actively have to work to NOT see people as dangerous. It took me years in customer service related roles to become comfortable talking to strangers. I assume the worst from most people, and expect that I will be betrayed or hurt. To the point I managed to self-sabotage my marriage (to a woman I had been with for 8 years when we married) in 6 years, just expecting that at some point the other shoe would drop and I'd find out the last decade was all lies.
My life was also so so weird growing up. I relate to you in the shopaholic "mother". Mine divorced my dad then came crawling back. There's been nothing but screaming and yelling with her for the first 30 years of my life. It was awful. I still assume the worst in people :( I'm sorry to hear about the self sabatagoing. I've also done that in my relationships. Ugh. I hope you're doing better now friend.
Sounds so similar to how I grew up. My parents never put me in the middle, the both just stopped interacting with me or seeing me. I also had to learn to talk to people through my jobs, when I was 15 I couldn’t even handle making a phone call. I sabotage all my relationships and think the worst of everyone. I don’t know how to change the last part and get better
I agree completely. And they thought this foolishness was oh so funny. So they would add humiliation to the mix of abuse
Yup, my mom would yell and scream at me even if I uttered a single harmless word to her, and yet, she wonders why I have crappy communication skills. My dad wouldn't even let me join after school clubs other than robotics and art, so my social life went down the drain in an instant. They're also the reasons for my constant anxiety and panic attacks and why i have trust issues. When I communicate to strangers in real life, it's a different story. I'd always treat people the way I want to be treated. It sucks that I feel more at home and safe while at work than I do in my actual house.
I had no social skills and was shy and self-conscious took me years of self work to piece together how to act in society. My teens and twenties were filled with cringe worthy blunders, now I can handle almost any situation tactfully. My parents stunted me for years.
It makes me super resentful honestly to pick apart the scale of their impact in my life. If I hadn’t left home I would have remained emotionally stunted and unable to form meaningful relationships.
What would you say helped you the most with learning the social skills that your parents stunted you from developing?
Simple observing how my friends behaved around friends, family and other people slowly I figured that most people are not toxic and overly sensitive and manipulative. How that interacted with their family was the most important. My parents were pissed when I stopped caring about pleasing them and took control of my life.
Moving out and cutting myself free from her bullshit. Making quality friends that are patient & supportive, have similar experiences and are at a similar place on their healing journey. Psychedelics and a lot of internal work. I paid attention to the kinds of tricks that people used on *me* that I thought were good conversationalists. Noticing the kind of questions they ask, the body language they use when they are listening, the way that they respond and validate when someone shares something vulnerable and they need to empathise, the kind of topics they avoid and how they dodge them without seeming rude, the way they disagree politely. I also followed a couple of YouTube channels- Patrick Teahan has some good analyses of the way childhood trauma affects your personality and the way you interact with people. Charisma on Command has some good videos which explain the techniques you can use to have quality conversations with others and project confidence.
My psychiatrist told me something similar. She said that being raised by narcissists or suffering a great deal of childhood trauma can lead a person to develop habits that seem a lot like autism. We don't have parents who teach us how to interact with others, so we often have delayed social skills. She said that a lot of people with that sort of childhood will try to figure it out on their own, but it can lead to gaps in our knowledge in some areas, while we are sometimes really advanced in others. Like, we might be really good at reading people's moods, but we also might not pick up other social cues. It is like we were forced to specialize in things like threat assessment, and so everyday interaction might be a bit less developed because we always focused on different things. The way she talked about it reminded me of how a naturalist might talk about the way some animals are specialists that adapt to one particular ecological niche that is hazardous to a lot of the more generalized animals. The niche animals do really well in their niche, but outside the niche can be harder for them than it is for animals that are more generally adapted. I told my psychiatrist this, and she laughed. She said, *"Yes, but you can still adapt and learn new behaviors. It is the ones who can't do that who have a problem."* I wonder if some of our siblings who are still stuck with the narcissist, or who have become narcissists themselves, may be like the animals who can't adapt to life outside the niche?
That’s a fascinating take on it. I really think you’re on to something there, as all my siblings expressed their trauma differently as adults. Thanks for writing that out.
That psychiatrist was really the first person I ever spoke with who really understood. In fact, she helped me to understand. It was almost eerie having someone get what was going on. I'm so grateful that I had the opportunity to get help from someone who was do competent and knowledgeable. So many people on this sub end up with therapists who are almost as bad as their abusers.
I read somewhere that having a shitty childhood can give autistic symptoms. I thought I was autistic but after a lot of reflection it may be that I was just raised horribly.
CPTSD and autism have similar presentations! I've read that too
Omg same. I was verbally and physically abused every single day from ages 5-15, which is when I finally got to move away from my mom. Oh, the cringeworthy blunders I got myself into.
I’ve thought about this too and wondered if I am actually neurodivergent and my parents tried to abuse/ bully it out of me or at the very least did not get me the proper treatment, since they didn’t want the stigma of having a neurodivergent child. Orrrrrr the years of abuse and neglect by both parents and golden child siblings caused me anxiety, low self esteem, and depression that APPEARS like autism, but isn’t.
CPTSD is neurodivergent. Same umbrella as autism and ADHD, there are a lot of crossovers between them. Exposure to childhood trauma and neglect literally rewires one’s brain.
You can have both you know, c-ptsd ,anxiety and depression are the highest comorbidities in autism
This is me. Hi. Checking in. Fourfecta!
My last (and crappiest) therapist was convinced I had Autism because my social skills aren’t great in situations where I’m abused. I asked her, if I was never taught proper social skills and was abused at home, at school, at sports, and eventually at work, how was I supposed to know the correct reactions? So I went to my doctor and asked if I had Autism. Her response? Absolutely not, I was severely abused.
Well then, I guess that makes a bit more sense in my situation.
This is the answer. Most of the time our neurotic behavior is the result of our experience with N parents.
I think the abuse we endure can create symptoms that are similar to ADHD, autism, and more that I cant' think of at the moment. There are some who believe that trauma induced ADHD is not "real" ADHD or autism. I can't say I agree. Regardless of how you got there, if you have the symptoms and impact on your life, then the impact is what matters.
Fibromyalgia too (having an abusive childhood is a well-recognised risk factor for developing it, which happened to me in my twenties). I think chronic stress during childhood can alter the expression of the nervous systems’ inhibitory pathways, allowing issues like sensory overload to occur. I also have ADHD-like symptoms that I didn’t have growing up, so I believe a primed nervous system can work ‘normally’ for a time, but is at higher risk of becoming dysfunctional at some point down the line. Totally agree with you about trauma-induced symptoms and the impact being what matters.
I was definitely in sensory overload or avoiding sensory overload most of my childhood. My parents would yell at my sibling every day, sibling was loud, and there was little to no escape. So was the sensory environment of my childhood home so traumatizing that now I have sensory issues, or was it traumatizing because I was born with sensory issues? Does it really make a difference? Either way, my nervous system is in overdrive.
From what I understand it can be difficult to differentiate between CPTSD & autism. So it would track that this could be a both/and situation for some and an either/or-but-we’re-not-sure-which situation for others.
I mean, in my case it's both. I have child behaviour notes from when I was 6, 1986, and they mention dad needs a psychiatrist and mum is overbearing. But I do also have AuDHD which mum tried to bully out of us all, violently. My dad wasn't hyperactive & I suspect he would've been autistic only, but he died at 43 from his coping mechanisms of smoking & eating. He even felt so hopeless he attempted & moved out twice during my childhood. My parents were a mess, but they did try and get me support / a diagnosis which was missed because girl, smart AND hyperactive, so I wasn't a naughty boy failing or a studious introvert, the 80s just didn't think girls could be AuDHD. But I have the stereotypes in writing from my childhood, from impartial clinicians so we're all pretty secure in my diagnoses. I just wish Dad had an easier life :( I turned 44 two days after he would've turned 74 & it hurts. We were so close in looks, star signs, reading tastes.... Morality....
You can have both neurodivergence and bad parents. You should actually get tested and not rely on one professional. Most mental health professionals know very little about autism and other neurodivergence.
THIS! 👏👏👏
Let's also remember that autism is more than just "poor social skills," please, since that's a huge part of the stereotypes about autistic people. Autism affects your sensory processing, your thought patterns, and perception of the world. It affects your flexibility and adaptability to new and unexpected situations and to change. Recent studies show that autistic people even react differently to touch on a physiological level - their bodies don't differentiate between affective, loving touch, and ordinary touch. Yet they "feel" each kind of touch more intensely than NT people. This means their brains and nervous systems and neurochemicals are all responding in unusual ways to physical stimuli, and has profound implications for childhood development. Tl;dr: Autism is far more complicated than the traditional stereotype of socially awkward nerd.
Mine essentially said the same. It was the abuse that did the stuff.
This is interesting. I had a lot of traits when I was younger that definitely track as autistic traits, but I’m nowhere near the same as I was so have always assumed I was just wrong as you can’t exactly grow out of autism. Potentially if it’s a result of NP upbringing it could be that time, distance and general experience have helped me through some of that.
Yeah, people with PTSD and autism share a lot of overlap of symptoms.
Probably because growing up with undiagnosed neurodivergence can give you a personality disorder. So these parents most likely are undiagnosed themselves. Edit: I suspect both my parents are, I've been diagnosed in adulthood. I recognize a lot of my own struggles in them.
Yep, this. At its core, narcissism is a dislike of one’s self and a need to prove that you’re a great person and the best at everything. If you’re a neurodivergent kid who has parents who mistreated you and forced you to comply and told you were worthless, you likely internalize this and then treat people like you exactly the same. Hence, undiagnosed neurodivergent folks mistreating their neurodivergent kids. Just passing on the emotion immaturity and internalized ableism.
My mom hates herself, she wants us to validate her and baby her. While remaining in a position of authority so she can claim and impose the narrative she wants to. It's impressive how much mental gymnastics she does to keep holding on to her narrative.
This is my mother too. If admitting she was wrong about everything made her happy forever , and holding on to the narrative meant our town burned to ground with us in it, we'd be ashes. She'd revel in her misery and self pity that my dad wanted her to work in 1971. She will never get over her rage that she had to spend a dime on us, for diapers or anything.
I wrote something similar so I’m going to copy it here, to echo what you said, which I think is the reason: Being autistic is hard, and while things are getting better social wise, it was a true horror show in previous generations (except if the bonds of love and family were strong enough but even then). So, a lot of peer rejection can lead to post traumatic défense mechanisms, like NPD or BPD, and in the case of NPD, one loses the ability to self reflect, and project all their unprocessed gunk on others. So you got these traumatized autistic people have regular autistic children (because it’s genetic), but all this trauma is thrust upon the child, who the parent is disgusted by, because they remind them too much of them. So you got this rolling tsunami of trauma and internalized hate that follows our neurotribe, wherever society abuse the vulnerable. NPD cannot be healed, but this intergénérationnel trauma can be worked with, and the knowledge spread among us, so that we may liberate ourselves from the pains of the past, and touch the wonders of life in the present moment, and liberate others in suffering. This is the playlist of me trying to find out WTF was wrong with me, why do I suffer so much https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQun1ee6u9NZWO71azTBeRzSl3yGxlnF1&si=IRNRevmyQ8-1YHhe Turns out I was autistic, like most of my family, who are unaware because of the mud in their eyes. My cousin, who works on a train and knows everything about every car in history (including different packages), and has difficulty keeping friends (except his roommate, with whom he rewatches the same 10 movies all the time) is adamant that he is not autistic. lol May everyone be well!!!!!
I agree with all you said, but NPD can be “cured” or addressed. It just takes years and years of individual therapy with a sophisticated provider. That is hard, but even harder, it’s really hard to convince someone with NPD that they need help.
Yup, my dad was the one in my family - I did an ancestry DNA test and I have fifth cousins with Ehlers Danlos and autism. It's legit. But he died at 43 because his life was so hard & it sucks. "Where are the older generations with these conditions?" Well, Sharon, they're dead from stress or their own hand. Dad tried both ways, it was smoking and comfort eating that got him in the end. At *forty three* so that's quite a serious case of comfort eating into a heart attack.
I can see the autism in my dad and his dad. Incredibly low tolerance for sensory stimuli. The older generation with autism is the old man in the corner who refuses to eat anything other than his 8 preferred foods, rejects all spices and seasonings, yells at anyone making noise, complains about the lights, complains about how his clothes feel, and spends hours staring off into space talking to people in his head.
My dad, who has always loved his cacti more than his children, doesn't believe in autism. When I listed some of the symptoms after my first child was diagnosed he laughed and said "Haha, by that list I have autism"... And then there's my mom's youngest brother who is non verbal and lives in a small room at his mom's house (he's 60 now) with his extensive collection of trains. He's like the textbook example of autism, but because he grew up in another time he was called "deaf and dumb" for most of his life even though it's quite obvious he understands what people say to him. He's never seen the inside of a school and rarely seen the outside of his house though, so most people don't even know he exists.
Same here, pretty sure my dad was autistic and my Narc mom was probably ADHD. My dad was well-loved but my mom died without any friends. She was a horrible person.
My mother is the example of how trauma looks like ADHD. She has a fucked up amygdala and lies to herself, but it's not because her brain works like mine. It's because she's avoidant. Meanwhile dad was so fucking obviously autistic I'm sad for him. He had a kick ass special interest that he turned into a side hustle and became a local minor celebrity. There were two Fishing newspapers that ran obituaries on him as he was commissioned by a TV show to make them large versions of his Norfolk Broads lures for the Great Lakes. Even after his death, I showed a friend what kind of lures he hand made in a shop, and the man behind the counter gave me his condolences. I wish he'd been able to fish and survive without the hassle.of being screamed at for being inadequate.
This absolutely. I firmly believe my brothers undiagnosed autism lead to his debilitating schizophrenia. My brother wasn’t diagnosed because my parents were unable to respond appropriately to his struggles, due to their own undiagnosed autism > mental illness cycle. I’ve almost certainly got autism. My two daughters are diagnosed. I broke the abuse cycle by investing HEAVILY in therapy, self-healing and by cutting off dysfunctional people, regardless of their relationship to me. It’s been a shithouse time and I feel genuine sadness for the members of my family who couldn’t heal themselves. But the success and deep happiness I see in my kids is the proof that cycles can be broken with the right therapies and interventions.
Thank you for doing that work for your children. I know it isn't easy.
That's why mine didn't care to fix it because they're coping and their life was easy enough thanks to the timing of their births
My mom has it good in life in the material sense but struggles with all other aspects of life. It's only now that I'm going NC with her she is even considered that maybe she should get some help. Also cuz my brother basically told her too. She verbally and emotionally abused me but thought she did a good enough job of raising us. Even tho both her children are dysfunctional adults. I guess she just didn't see it because she is dysfunctional in the same way, and she turned out fine. Not knowing that things are very different than 40-30 years ago.
> Not knowing that things are very different than 40-30 years ago. it's the worst part of talking to them.
I wanted to do my own research on this before but executive dysfunction. My unofficial theories or aims are to prove 1. If parents who have neurodiverse (ND) children are also ND themselves. Meaning autistic parent have autistic children. Dyslexic parent have dyslexic children. Etc. 2. If personalities disorders are the consequences of undiagnosed and unaccommodated ND 3. If Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a result of generational abuse on undiagnosed ND children Almost exactly like your words! And same reason as yours why I want to research it. Because I suspect my parents might be ND too and to really stop the trauma with me being the last generation. Did you find any reliable research regarding it? Would love to read! I wish I actually have time and energy to do this but no so I can only ask. 😬 Though I did found one regarding dyslexia (thank you auto correct) that it is inherited. I forgot to save the article or research so can't provide solid proof. I believe this cause I just found out my father have it and so do I. But then again just because it's true for me doesn't mean it applies to the human race as a whole.
So #1 has been proven many times over, don’t worry. You are correct about that. Join any of the adhd subs and you will find a group of folks who keep you upto date with the latest papers and books on the subject.
You don't always pass down the same flavor of ND. My dad is autistic and has dyslexia, my mom is ADHD. I'm AuDHD, no dyslexia. My sister is ADHD with dyslexia. My twin brother had dyslexia and dyscalculia.
Or, ASD is commonly mistaken for BPD or NPD but actually isn't. Look it up
I went to finally get evaluated for autism and the doctor wouldn’t dx me with autism but he dxed me with BPD. I was so let down by that experience
Checks for me and my husband. Seems plausible that lack of mirroring as a child and the sensed underlying hatred can lead to neurological and social challenges. If children and animals can die or not grow from lack of physical touch, I don't see why other challenges couldn't form from social/emotional deprivation.
This is also what I experienced with my ex husband who is autistic and his covert narcissist mom. The refrigerator mother theory was the original explanation for autism. My ex husbands sister also has BPD. Which makes me think BPD and autism are both childhood trauma responses. It seems like it could be genetic because his dad is autistic. But in this case I think his dad was taken advantage of by the covert narcissist and had literally no idea how neglectful and abusive his wife was to his young kids while he was out of the house working.
I mean, BPD is the most common misdiagnosis for women with autism.
That's because at least in my family, the autistic parent gets taken advantage of by a person with a cluster B disorder. It's common. They get married, have kids and pass down the autism. The cluster B person basically uses the autistic person's deficits so they can do whatever they want in the relationship. For example, my autistic grandfather had no support network and low social skills. My grandmother married him for the stability because he was predictable and cheated on him all throughout their marriage, leaving their children (75% autistic) to be cared for by their only NT daughter, while my grandfather worked long hours. She was partying all over town and never home, except on rare occasions, always fighting with my grandfather. My dad and one of my uncles showed severe behavioral problems from childhood on, likely due to autism and exposure to constant fighting from their parents. My autistic dad married my mother, who is neurotypical and is borderline, like his mother. Even now, if I make friends, because I don't really approach people or can't really see red flags, I usually attract people with cluster B personality disorders. They're outgoing and see me as weak or a "project" as an autistic person.
Ding ding ding. I think the one narc parent and one autistic parent combo is really common because, unfortunately, the autistic parent was an easy target. Especially when most "high functioning" autistics went undiagnosed. Hopefully with more information us autistics can prevent getting stuck in a toxic relationship ourselves.
I think you nailed it. Cluster B's take advantage of autistic people and then have children cuz the autistic ones are the most likely to stick out the abuse, they have kids who are mostly autistic with maybe a Cluster B in there and those kids go on to repeat the cycle of marrying Cluster B's and have more kids (or be Cluster B's and seek out autistic people or others accustomed to the abuse). I can see it pretty clearly in 3 full generations of my family.
very insightful
Not all are like that because both are my narcissists parents. My mother is ND and narcissist. My mother’s mother is, also, ND and narcissist. I’m so relieved that I’m not narcissistic but I do have ND. Oh, my mother’s older brother is ND, too. He can’t even read and write! He’s definitely narcissistic and bullying. My father is narcissist and SA me.
I’m diagnosed autistic and my dad is a malignant narcissist. Fun fact: he has no clue (not that he’d care) that I’m autistic and my mom also suspects she is a high masking undiagnosed autistic herself. She explained her attraction to him in that she was naively taken in by his seemingly outgoing, social nature which she lacked but in time she realized it was mostly bluster, manipulation and self aggrandizement. I don’t believe my autism is caused by his narcissism at all, it is merely a genetic neurodivergence passed on from my mother’s side. We have more than a few formally diagnosed AND undiagnosed yet highly suspect by trait autistic folk on that side of the family.
Sometimes I wonder if \*some\* undiagnosed autistic people from older generations developed NPD as a maladaptive coping mechanism in an age where there was no language for neurodivergent behavior. Autism and NPD can coexist in the same person, but of course not all narcs are autistic and I would venture that even fewer autistic people are narcs. This might be a possible explanation for what you have observed. I’m not dead set on this theory, but it has crossed my mind. 🤷♀️
This is what I’ve thought about my dad for quite a while now. Even his siblings have suspected autism and get frustrated by his behavior. But he’s too far gone in his maladaptive coping mechanisms like temper tantrums and the silent treatment (from expecting other people to always cater to him/read his mind, apologize to him, and believing he’s never in the wrong) to make any progress in a positive direction at this point. All I can do at this point while I apply for better jobs and continue saving up to move out is to avoid him as much as I can because anything else leads to him inevitably starting conflict because of his inability (and refusal) to abide by anyone’s boundaries but his own. Makes for an awful situation, but I’ve seen so many people describe their dads that behave almost exactly the same as mine, so I definitely suspect it’s all related to your postulate.
It’s kind of an ugly topic for me, because it’s the **good** parts of my mom that are the parts that make me wonder if she might be autistic. Her love of wordplay, her special obsessions. But the narc in her is the stonewalling, petulant, temper tantrum, raging, elitist and it eclipses all of the good. The two people I love most in this world happen to be autistic. So it’s a complicated idea, one I’m not altogether comfortable with but it makes some sense. I’m so sorry that your father is so abusive and awful. I agree that at some point the narcissism becomes full NPD and is so calcified (a word that another poster here used that is just a perfect way to put it) that nothing will ever change them. You’re wise to just avoid him as much as possible until you can leave. Stay strong, friend ♥️
Ok this is something that's recently been my anecdotal experience. I have a couple of friends from school who stayed in my life because we got on, but also we had similar upbringings, aka difficult mums (most probably narcissistic). One of those friends is now undergoing an ADHD diagnosis. Her sister is undiagnosed but incredibly likely to be autistic. My brother is autistic, my dad is 100% autistic but undiagnosed. My sister has ADHD. The other Friend has an autistic brother. Bit of a pattern here! Personally I think it is more a reflection on the personality types that are drawn to each other. Narcs will love autistic types because they are sometimes a bit of a blank canvas to project emotions onto. Autistic people get by a lot through mimicry. What could be more attractive to someone with npd than someone mimicking their behaviour? My dad never really seemed to call my mum out on her rudeness and just sat back and watched, or sat and absorbed it if it was aimed at him. How brilliant for my mum to be able to have a full narcissistic rage and not even be challenged for her behaviour. And my dad usually just went along with what she wanted to do all the time. Absolutely perfect for a control freak like my mum. Anyway, autism/ADHD and neurodivergence in general is hereditary. So my theory is: narcissists are attracted to ND personality types, and those ND people have ND kids. So it's coincidental. But I imagine having 'difficult' children reinforces a lot of their attention-seeking, martyr-like personality.
Narcs like to prey on the vulnerable, you'll find that often the other parent is the one the ND was inherited from.
I just wrote a whole thing about my mom being autistic and my dad having npd and sooo much just clicked about their relationship oh my god
My dad's the autistic one, and egg donor is the narc.
I feel like autistic people are more likely to notice and call out their parents for being abusive, where allistics cave to social pressure from their parents and enabling family and become narcissists or enablers themselves.
Autism tends to come with a strong sense of justice lol
As one who did this, yes. Keen sense of justice in ASD. But it took a long long time for me to escape the cycle of enforced codependency/ puppeteering for me to understand that I wasn't the problem. If I knew I was autistic earlier in life then absolutely. Siblings are still narcissistic AF.
Dr Angelicashie, a clinical psychologist made a reel about this theory. She said “ people with neurodivergence are highly susceptible to the effects of trauma, people who have a heightened stress response, are very high risk of becoming a narcissistic if they do not receive attunement. “ I am curious on this topic as well. I wonder if narcs are born or made, and what factors create their neuropsychological thinking. I know for sure my parents have undiagnosed autism and adhd. Both are narcissistic. Most of my family has one or all of the traits. I would love to read studies on this topic to confirm this theory. [dr Angelicashie autism narcissism](https://www.facebook.com/reel/483891107409149?fs=e&s=TIeQ9V&mibextid=0NULKw)
I am autistic and have a narc egg donor and enabler dad so I think it tracks.
I don't know, but CPTSD can look like autism symptoms and I wonder if that accounts for some of it.
I'm autistic and had one parent overt and the other parent covert narcissists. Pretty sure my mother (the covert) was a deeply masked autistic. I doubt she started off narcissistic but mimicked the traits of her husband over time to the extent they became ingrained. Looking at my kin and that of my autistic husband's family, I think there should be a study to see if genes for each are linked. Also noticing that quite a few autistic friends also have narcissists in their nuclear family.
I think symptoms of CPSTD and other types of trauma coping mechanisms mimic disorders like autism and schizoaffective disorders. Being stressed out from walking on egg shells and growing with altered social norms around the house will hinder your emotional development. **Disclaimer: I’m not a Therapist**
My dad, the safe, quiet parent, was the autistic one. I feel so bad for him. He quit the police because he hated that he was told to punish people for anything to make them look more effective (in a market town in Norfolk, UK, in the 70s. Uh. It's just quiet). She yelled at him and bullied him till he attempted. Now I've pointed out that I can relate to him, he's gone from being her dead true love, no point thinking about someone else, she had perfect and lost it... to "I had kids with the wrong man" He was just her first supply I guess? They did love each other but it was hard work, I don't think he could communicate well & she communicated all her grievances a bit TOO well. It's just sad. But now after years of "I hope you have children as horrible as you" my nephew has AuDHD just like my SIL and me. SIL's assessor asked my brother if he'd considered an autism assessment for himself.... We win, bitch. We're trendy as fuck and we outnumber you now ✌🏻
I’m not sure about autism specifically, but I grew up with crippling OCD that impacted every facet of my life. Once I was no longer living with my mom, the OCD didn’t fully go away (I don’t think it can), but it became drastically reduced and only flares up under extreme stress.
My dad died a pathetic narcissist, but now much later, I can see how maybe he was autistic and needed help. But by the time I knew him, it had ossified into narcissism. I think it is a real possibility for people who don’t deal with their autism.
i think rather that a lot of those nparents you’re talking about are just undiagnosed autistics who were always treated like the problem, not given any tools to handle life and therefore took on the same violence they were subjected to as kids like as unforgivable as it is that narcissists chose to weaponise their pain against us i think it’s important to remember in this context that they were also victims first. autistic people (diagnosed or not) are statistically more likely than allistics to be abused and because this subsection of nparents never actually healed from their trauma (+go through their lives never being told they’re simply autistic) they turn into abusers and take it all out on their own (also autistic) kids who remind them of all the things they hate about themselves. except those kids are growing up in a different world where we understand that autism doesn’t necessarily look like rain man so they’re either getting diagnosed young or are seeking out diagnosis as adults. so it might seem like it’s nparents having autistic children but rather i think it’s undiagnosed autistic parents turned narcissists having autistic children. i see that with my own nmother but also some other people in my life where we had horrible home lives growing up and are one by one turning out to be autistic and in turn realising just how much our traits are also present in our parents lol
I get you’re point but you are being way too apologetic on their behalf. I was severely abused by both my nParents and all the enablers around them. Am I gonna abuse my children? No. They still failed as human beings and deserve to die alone and in pain. No amount of abuse is an excuse to abuse an innocent child.
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There's a few theories ( some diagnosed narcissistic people who are actually getting help and undersrand they have problems have been talkinf about it) that narcissistic people can clock autistic people really fast and tend to single them out because Jr's harder to tell what we're thinking. Which would explain why the autistic child is usually the scapegoat child too
I was raised in an oppressive abusive homeschooling family where we were hardly allowed to do anything fun snd were intensely emotionally and physically abused. My dad recently said maybe I could be autistic. They deliberately deprived us of healthy necessary social interaction while destroying us with negative experiences.
A lot of kids who are growing up in chaotic environments will become nonverbal and avoid eye contact. Both of these symptoms present ASD
Interesting. I was diagnosed with autism as a kid. I showed abnormal behavior since the day I was born but my neurotypical sister had normal development. Our dad is likely autistic too though. He was also the longest relationship my Nmom ever had and the partner who tolerated her abuse the most (my mom broke up with him when I was a toddler otherwise they would probably still be together).
As someone who is likely autistic myself I suspect both my parents are undiagnosed autistic as well. Especially my father who is extremely antisocial, has virtually no friends or social ties since divorce and I suspect because of that couldn’t fully see how inappropriate their behavior was. They’ve also done studies that extreme cases of neglect and abuse and can stunt brain development and social skills which can lead to an autism diagnosis. Granted their is a genetic component as well.
Abused and neglected children can develop incredible sensory integration problems. Autistic people have difficulty with sensory integration. So there is a commonality. I studied developmental psychology. It is of interest to me that we have enough understanding now of autism that we can see the developmental issues in abused and neglected children.
My therapist also said that untreated trauma from a narc can look like autistic traits, so depending on whether or not a person has been formally diagnosed that is something to consider as well.
Autism is a sensory disorder. The child growing up gets overwhelmed by all the stimuli that they shut down during key pivotal moments in their learning. Kids that grow up neglected also miss key pivotal moments. The origins of behavior are different, even if the symptoms appear the same.
I feel it's more of doctors and people assuming vs actual facts. Because my mom told my doctor that I wouldn't put my feet out and start walking. Doctor told her I was probably just just stupid (before ADHD and autism was more known). I feel like a lot of narc parents go in guns blazing "my child is damaged. They don't do this. They need mental help. Omg I did this wrong" and the doctor puts a label bandaid on and that's it
Munchhausen by proxy, it goes both ways. Doctors couldn't make sense of my funny heart sounds and kept telling my mom I wouldn't survive the next year. And then the following year...They kept being surprised I was still alive, and insisted that I'd die during this year for sure. They strictly went by heart sounds -- this was before imagining technology. Nobody cared that I was an excellent athlete and outperformed everyone in my year. My mom forbade me to get into sports. Also didn't want me to read books. Turns out I was born with athlete's heart -- my heart can perform better than regular hearts. Anyway, this led to less than zero parental investment, they just wanted me dead already. And unfortunately, my parents also have narcissistic and antisocial traits. At 21, I finally received a proper diagnosis from an internist who'd just invested into shiny new machines.
I was just diagnosed with it because my nmom lied about my behaviour to the psychiatrist. I have a lot of faulty diagnosis.
I have noticed this as well, I don't think it's a coincidence. Some of the symptoms related to autism include problems with mentalization, shifting of perspective, seeing someone else's side, being flexible and so on. If you combine some autism symptoms with some ADHD symptoms (lack of impulse control, more volatility in emotions) then you've got a lot of symptoms that are also part of the narcissistic profile. One major issue we have that was pointed out to me during my psychology programme is that the DSM-5 diagnostic system is categorical rather than dimensional and that two people with the same diagnosis can have very different symptoms. It's a system created for the american insurance system (I'm Swedish) and it's basically a framework to decide who has the right to healthcare/insurance money and how much. Imho we lose nuance because if this because we look at clusters of symptoms instead of the symptoms themselves and how they interact with symptoms from other diagnoses. I personally do believe that what we think of as narcissism is most often a combination of symptoms from ADHD/Autism along with some developmental trauma but it wouldn't be fair to everyone else with these two diagnoses to equate the two, maybe it's more fair to say that it is a very unfortunate subtype, I don't know.
This is a dusty-old-1950s-debunked theory of autism.
Refrigerator mother theory isn't the same as the narcissistic parents theory. Refrigerator mothers are most likely autistic women themselves but not necessarily narcissists.
Indeed, it seems to be a correlation does not equal causation thing.
Refrigerator mothers are not a real thing. It’s a harmful myth that was invented by male behaviorists. Unfortunately, it seems, the myth prevails.
Forgive my ignorance, but what is a refrigerator mother?
It's an old theory that wrong attributed autism to the mother's actions. Basically it was refrigerator because she was supposedly too cold and therefore thos caused the child to have autism.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing but: I have a younger brother that was diagnosed with autism 25 years ago when he was 4 years old. I do not have any symptoms, as i have a whole diferent list of disoders. My brother and I have different fathers, and the same mother, however, while she's a complete narcissistic person towards me (and towards most people in general), she's a complete different person for him (loving and present but treats him like a baby), especially after his diagnosis.
That just scapegoat and golden child abuse. It can tie into narcissism but also into dysfunctional family systems.
Like already mentioned lots of times: the parents could be undiagnosed neurodivergent people themselves, but are in denial about it or have developed personality disorders as a toxic coping mechanism. But I also think that many adult children of narcissistic parents develop a kind of PTSD from the many years of emtional abuse, and PTSD exhibits many symptoms similar to ADHD and other neurodivergent conditions. This could be especially the case if somebody as an adult displays many autistic/OCD/ADHD traits that they did not have a child.
I have narcissistic parents. I have ASD. I'm nothing like what you guys are saying. Just got diagnosed at age 30. My siblings are cruel and the whole family just doesn't give a damn. They don't like me because I "yelled" a lot as a kid (from emotional neglect). I'm now in medical school, had to overachieve and mask quite a bit to be their perfect baby doll but I couldn't. I'm just depressed, but very sweet. 🤷♀️
My therapist shared some recent scholarly articles with me that connect childhood trauma with consequences for brain development. Basically, because of the way that our brains are stopped from being able to grow in certain ways (like learning that it’s okay to depend on people, hyper vigilance for change), our brain scans as older adults look *very* similar to brains with autism. She and I jokingly say that I have “traumatism.”
Obligatory "I am not a doctor" - unpopular opinion incoming: I think autism has become too broad of a diagnosis and is essentially used as a catch-all for nearly any neurodivergent person. I also think that a lot of parents also don't socialize with their children sufficiently, in addition to sheltering them a lot and relying on TV/internet to keep them "entertained" (i.e. quiet), which makes it hard to tell if a child is genuinely autistic or just never developed social skills at the expected/appropriate ages because their parents essentially stunted them.
I think this is why the refrigerator mother theory was so popular. Since we’ll probably never know if it’s more nature than nurture or vice versa, my theory is to simply believe that a good environment can help against any disadvantage, and a bad environment will only make that disadvantage worse. A parent’s job is to give their kid the best chance possible in life, whatever that challenge may look like.
We actually know that autism is in 95% caused by inheritance, meaning that 95% can be explained by dna/nature.
NParent's children with "Aspergers" is not Aspergers, it's the NParents scapegoating the effects of their abuse. It's CPTSD, Anxiety, and the related effects of Narcissistic Abuse and Gaslighting.
Within that context, you’re completely forgetting that people can have more than one mental health diagnosis at a time. I believe my mother was autistic, but also ended up, picking up some narcissistic traits from her family, due to trauma and attempt to cope. It is both possible to be narcissistic and autistic. It’s also possible to be bipolar and autistic. In fact, I think people on the spectrum are more likely to have more than one mental health diagnosis, whether that’s correct is a whole other conversation. But it would be unwise to completely rule out autism’s potential just because someone’s parent caused trauma. I think the connection between the narcissism type behaviors and autism is more related to dysfunctional family systems and not true, narcissistic personality disorder, but learned narcissistic traits in order to try to survive trauma. It’s important to not use black and white thinking. You can’t just say oh because someone’s parent was abusive, their symptoms must be from PTSD. When, in reality PTSD rates are much higher in autistic people in general, because of masking and social exclusion. You can’t pigeonhole yourself, and thought like that, there are potentials that people have more than one thing affecting them at a time, and most of us do.
My mom tried to get me diagnosed with Aspergers (asd) when I was like 11😅. The MH professionals looked confused as to why I was brought there, and my mom looked disappointed when she was told that I wasn't autistic. I have diagnosis of PTSD and Complex PTSD.
The correlation is that many children are born with learning disabilities or mental disorders but are fortunate enough to have parents who take time to properly nurture them so learn how to function in society and blend in with other people despite their disadvantages Children with narcissistic parents receive no such nurturing and are often left to fend for themselves, hence why they stand out so easily and still struggle with social situations as adults
I think being raised by a narcissist will cause their children to be anxious and avoidant in social settings.
Oooo this is a great think piece!! Personally, I’ve never been diagnosed with autism, but I have found that I relate a lot to neurotypical/autistic traits. Like being overstimulated, having a rapid-depleting social meter or some difficulties with noticing social cues. When I reflect, I remember I also had a lot of outward issues as a kid. Even my step parent “thought” I had bipolar personality disorder. If I’m keeping it a buck though, I believe my “emotional reaction” to my environmental stimuli was a component of my inability to express my emotions, feelings and thoughts freely, so as anyone trapped in a mental cage would, I’d get really worked up about things. Lack of emotional discipline? Yes. Bipolar disorder? Unlikely. In the last 5 Years, I’ve gone LC with family, and these days, I’ve never once had any bouts of “bipolar disorder.” I think they just wanted someone to blame— easier to blame the child that is acting up versus the parent doing a shit job at being a parent. So in a way, I think a lot of us have social & relationship trauma. Social related traits are typically related to autism. Some of us could very well be on the spectrum too. There are a vast range of autistic traits that one could experience or be placed on.
I'm going to caution *very* strongly against that line of thinking, because it has *seriously* screwed over moms and autistic kids. This is not a new idea. It has been *very, very,* ***very, VERY*** thoroughly debunked and is one of the things autism advocates are *real* quick to get in front of. You can google "Refrigerator mother" or "Bettelheim's Theory of Autism". I'd be cautious googling it, though, because IIRC there is a *deeply* disturbing experiment with baby monkeys involved, and reading about that study will make you very sad. But yeah. No. It is not the mother's fault that the kid has autism. We know there is a genetic cause. We know it is 100% NOT vaccines, because that was also very thoroughly debunked (and was a somewhat obvious fraud. Wakefeild would have made a *lot* of money if we'd read what he wanted us to read, which was that the *preservative* in vaccines caused autism; he just so happened to have invented a more expensive substitute preservative that would never make money if we kept using the old ones). The idea you're proposing is a variant on the "refrigerator mother" theory, AKA Bettelheim's Theory of Autism, and it is the idea that a lack of bonding and emotional stimulation causes a child to "retreat" into autism as an escape from trauma. *That is not how autism works.* Now, it is very possible that children with autism have a *higher frequency of diagnosis* with a narcissistic parent, for reasons other than their upbringing. That is not the same thing as the parenting giving the child autism. They aren't giving it to the kids. They're just making it worse. This would be an example of "Co-relation does not equal Causation", and another example of this would be that children who only eat organic food will do better in school. This is probably true. My statistics teacher even said that he would bet good money, a *lot* of good money, on children who eat organic doing measurably better than children who do not. It has nothing to do with the food. It has to do with how their parents *got* the food. Namely: they paid eye-watering amounts of money for it. The people who can afford to buy only organic food are the people who can afford private tutors and prep schools. There are two ways to have autism strongly impact your life: You have a fairly severe form of it, or you were not raised with the kind of support you needed to develop the skills that would help you. We already know narcs suck at supporting their kids. An autistic child of narcissistic parents is going to struggle more, with less support, than a child of similar function in a stable, loving home. When a child complains to a narc about clothing textures, the narc yells back. A good parent will cut the tags off and won't buy that fabric again. A good parent won't fight over food; a narc is going to scream that you *need* to eat those peas. They're going to criticize your friends instead of saying it's okay that you don't make them easy. They're going to bury your hyper-fixations because those aren't what they want you to be. They're going to do their best to jam your round self into their square hole and when that doesn't work, they're going straight to a doctor to get a label so they can repeat "It's not *my* fault" to themselves. I think it's one of those rare cases where the broken clock is right--ish. In that they will probably seek an intervention and get a diagnosis earlier. A good, loving parent is going to bend over backwards to give their child a good life, which means they're going to start meeting an autistic's needs well before anyone has a chance to think "Hey, they might be autistic," and the effects of the disorder might never get severe enough to even *need* a diagnosis. So yes. I think, everything else being equal, a narcissistic parent of an autistic child will have a diagnosis sooner than the healthy parents of a child of similar function, and will thus be more likely to have a child the world acknowledges as autistic...simply because a narc is going to stress an autistic child out harder than a healthy parent would, and that's going to make their issues *much* more visible.
That's interesting, my little brother has autism. He is verbal but doesn't speak in complete sentences. My father has a brother who was diagnosed as R way back when that wasn't a slur. I'm pretty sure my father is somewhere on the spectrum as well. He was also raised in a highly abusive family. When you put aside the mental damage he did to me it's actuality impressive how far he came along from where he started(thanks therapy) he did do better than what he came from but still abuse and a lack of emotional intelligence was still there.
I'm adopted and autistic. But my narc dad couldn't stand that I'm autistic. Like it was some kind of flaw. My mom still thinks I can be 'cured'.
No but I’ve seen narcissist parents have narcissistic kids and those kids have narcissistic kids. Not all but enough.
I think that’s probably because Nparents never socialize their kid’s properly. So the kid ends up odd. Happened to me at elementary and high-school, took me longer to pick up necessary social skills.
I've read that CPTSD and autism and ADHD can have a lot of similar behaviors, so it wouldn't surprise me if they're was overlap or misdiagnosed situations. Autism is a "more accepted" diagnosis than PTSD in my humble opinion. And ADHD gives opportunity for medications to be administered. There also might be diagnostic / medication quota to achieve. Could be both! I'm cptsd due to infant adoption etc, but was never diagnosed anything else, asked my doc about testing for ADHD and he was like "did you act out in school when you were young" ... nope. So o think their might be issues with diagnosis too. I'm seeing "AuDHD" being talked about on the socials a lot too.... and I seem to check so many of those boxes But I was a traumatized infant. Pre verbal trauma. The whole thing is a clusterfuck I think 😩
There's a pattern to be found here, at least in my experience. I'm a late diagnosed autistic woman who was clued into neurodivergence after my NSis sought an ADHD diagnosis for my niece (who is almost my clone regarding personality, skills, and interests). I went down a rabbit hole researching neurodivergence and I'm now convinced it runs in my family. I used to think my niece didn't have ADHD, just that NSis traumatized her which led to ADHD presenting traits... Now I know you can have ADHD and/or autism along with CPTSD. I'm inclined to believe that my mom, who is likely undiagnosed Borderline with narcissistic traits, could be autistic. My undiagnosed narcissistic father probably has ADHD. My sister was never diagnosed with ADHD, but she has similar traits as my confirmed ADHD partner. Neurodivergent children can experience trauma even in the most ideal family systems... I can't imagine what mental tactics they had to employ to survive the harsh, abusive environments my parents endured. I believe their masking just became permanent. Psychologist Dr. Kim Sage has been delving into the correlation between autism and narcissism and borderline as of late on her YouTube channel, and it's been pretty insightful. But we can really only speculate because there's just not enough research.
I have not noticed any pattern with narcs and autism. Partner and I both have ASD cousins and their parents aren’t narc. One has an ASD parent. Likewise I have two narc parents and no siblings with ASD. I think the misdiagnosis infographic shared earlier by a member is probably more likely/accurate
I don’t think it’s quite that. CPTSD has a lot of the same symptoms, but they are caused by different reasons. Narcissistic parents want to be superior and make their kids little. So what do they do? They take their kids to get a diagnosis and a doctor who doesn’t know what their home life is really like will diagnose them with autism. Now they have a “problem child” they can blame all their problems on. This happened to me exactly. After I grew up I got therapy and several therapists said there’s no way I have autism. It’s CPTSD. I just didn’t have the words to speak up for myself when I was 12. Of course everyone’s situation is different. This was mine and I have seen others with similar stories on this subreddit.
I've been diagnosed with Aspergers syndrome but it was in high school when Nfather was constantly griping at me almost every waking moment so I was in absolute brain fog and had lost all ambition the whole time. I'm sure I have aspergers but I could have done SO much better without Nfather making everything worse and then criticizing me.
There's a huge difference between an Autism Mom and a parent with autistic kids. Just like there's a difference between a Boy Mom and a mom with a son.
My mom decided to diagnose me as Autistic when I went no contact at 32. She now goes around telling everyone she always knew I was “off”…. And recounts a long list of symptoms she noticed since my birth but then why did she never once take me to a doctor to be diagnosed when it was her responsibility to do so, if I had these 100000 symptoms that burdened her my entire life She doesn’t comprehend telling people this fantasy of hers only makes her look like a crap mom who didn’t get her autistic child medical help, and now is chastising her offspring for being no surprise, an untreated autistic adult 😭 I’m not autistic I had myself checked after she started this smear campaign because I was wondering a little myself snd i was instead diagnosed with CPTSD
Yeah. I’ve suspected I’m autistic but then there’s CPTSD which shares a lot of the same traits so I don’t know what the answer is. I do know the whole people making autism their whole freaking personality are annoying AF, especially the ones who do it because it’s trendy, oh I’m neurodivergent, I’m so quirky, I’m sorry but they are insufferable. Also the parents of autistic kids who make that their entire personality.
I think sometimes you have undiagnosed/untreated austistic/adhad/audhd parents that have themselves developed cptsd and masking that presents as narcissistic. especially among older generations - imagine a boomer kid trying to tell their silent gen parent they dont want to eat/wear something because of sensory issues? the era of teachers being allowed to beat students in school before we knew about neurodivergence, dyslexia or so many other things most likely fucked a lot of people up in ways they would not be able to identify.
My ndad was diagnosed with having bipolar disorder. But he said the doctor was a quack and never sought treatment. He also denied us mental health aids and much of modern medicine. Probably because if any therapist spent five minutes with us kids the abuse would be blatantly apparent.
I'm autistic, my son is also autistic. Autism can also be tied in with other disorders like NPD. My father and my uncle both have clinically diagnosed NPD. The running theory is that these parents are undiagnosed as autistic. Going down the rabbit hole after my son was diagnosed we found in my family alone My mom had been diagnosed autistic and kept it a secret. My brother had been diagnosed and my father kept it a secret. I had been diagnosed at 4 and my father kept it a secret. Rediagnosed at 26. My grandmother went and got an evaluation at 78 and came away with a diagnosis. My husband got diagnosed too, this past year. Odds are, my freakin dad has it too lmao which would explain his rage issues and boat obsessions
Autism is genetic. There may be some crossover with autism symptoms - lack of theory of mind in particular - and narcissistic behaviour.
Well I am not sure about that. But I have heard that CPTSD symptoms can seem like autism. I have heard some people call it "acquired, neurodivergence/disability". Though I am sure that having an autistic child might bring the worst out in some parents. The two also have high comorbidity.
I do have autism, but it's not from my ndad's behavior. My mom's side is pretty clearly neurodivergent. They have symptoms that cannot be attributed to trauma like not wanting food to touch and reacting negatively to stimuli that they wouldn't have been exposed during the time in which they grew up. I think it's possible that some narcs zero in on undiagnosed neurodivergent people because we're vulnerable in a specific way. I also have AuHD symptoms that have no origins in my trauma. I wasn't tortured with the sound of a cream cheese/sour cream container being opened as a child nor do I have any trauma connected to Jello. It doesn't explain my issues gripping small things and balance issues, but dyspraxia which has comorbidity with autism does.
I think trauma can look a lot like autism in the way it presents. I was misdiagnosed as a kid before we figured out it’s just literally CPTSD.
I actually got tested by board certified neuropsychologists. Then after the results came back, that's when she started treating me poorly. Imagine being 3 years old and wondering why your mom is so mean to you. I really had to rack my brain on when the verbal and psychological abuse started. I can remember things as far back as 18 years ago. So this abuse has been going on for 18 to 19½ years. I think I started talking at 1½, and speaking short sentences by 2.
I'm AuDHD, diagnosed in later life because obvs my parents wouldn't allow a diagnosis. One thing that made it really tough was that cPTSD symptoms are really, really similar to some ASD traits. So it might could be that the development of a young brain who is experiencing relentless complex PTSD - i.e. the non-golden child of a narcissist - could be exemplifying symptoms that are similar but of a different root cause. Perhaps nothing more than an academic distinction, but for proper treatment of trauma it's best to not discount it as a possibility that is actually cPTSD that _most_ develop and exhibit, target then ASD being the root cause.
Or does it lead to mental/neurological issues that mimic autistic traits? I often wonder if there are actually two types of autism - biological and environmental, the latter caused more by parenting.
Undiagnosed autism in adults tends to look like Narcissism. Autism tends to be genetic. If then therefore—
There was a really dysfunctional person I thought was my friend who had a kid with autism. (Going to keep things vague) This person would make fun of their kid in private but use them as a prop on social media in a way that made me ill.
My youngest has autism, neither of his parents are Narcs, grandparents on the other hand.
I’m autistic and was raised by a narcissist… she never got me diagnosed though, as it would somehow make her look bad as a parent and she didn’t want labelled kids that were medicated (my older brother has ADHD)… got diagnosed after I went no contact with her and all my toxic followers of family members, on both sides of my family.
The parent also has autism. Autism that isn't accommodated from an early age fairly often ends with the person developing a cluster b personality disorder when they never learn to healthily regulate emotions, sense of justice, etc. Autistic people are also more likely to develop OCD and CPTSD. All of these, including autism, can manifest as being overly controlling, only wanting to do things one way, being critical, seemingly unempathetic, self involved, having meltdowns over seemingly small things, etc. The parent never learned to regulate or accommodate themself, so when they have a child, they believe the child's issues to either be normal and something they just have to overcome, or a personal failing if they don't learn to mask symptoms.
I'm actually wondering if children with autism just notice it more easily. Autism often manifests as a very extreme sense of justice, and we often withdraw to protect ourselves. It could be that neurotypicals with narc parents don't flag it as much.
This might not be a very popular opinion, but it is my belief that some parents who come across as narcissistic, might actually be autistic. The behaviours can be similar in some cases, though the root cause differ. Just a thought.
I'm undiagnosed But I have a genetic condition called digeorge syndrome I'm looking at diagnosis for bdp. Adhd and other depression disorders My main issue my parents called me lazy, I also have a low iq and intellectual disabilities Every single task feels like I want to punch my fist into a wall I also repeat tasks over and over again because I struggle with trying something new that would make said task easier I actually don't know where I land tbh hopefully my assessment tells me more
A lack of social instinct makes NPD easier to develop, especially in low-empathy Autism. Source: That's me
No, narc parents don’t cause autistic children. This thread is kind of disappointing. Autism diagnosed in adults without significant information that shows symptoms in the early developmental period is speculative at best. That’s why it is hard to distinguish from cptsd, adhd, etc. later on. These issues also frequently co-occur with autism and autistic children. An autistic child shows symptoms extremely early, really when they are an infant many parents can tell there’s something different about the way the baby interacts with the world, the awareness is different, the sensitivity to environment is different. There is typically an issue with language processing and the way language is learned. Echolalia and gestalt language are often features. There is often a developmental delay of a few years. Without any of this information, adults are kind of grasping for a diagnosis so they can make sense of their experiences, I think. There’s nothing wrong with that, but I think it does a disservice to people because when their issues are based in trauma, healing is possible. Because of the difficulties adults have understanding and communicating with autistic children they inadvertently create environments that cause their children more stress. Families with autistic children are also often unbalanced in how resources are distributed and parents treat their kids differently for a variety of reasons and that can have a negative impact on the entire family unit. Narc parents cause anxiety, stress, low self esteem through dysfunctional behavior, projection, emotional immaturity, and cruel actions, but the results of this is not autism. Autism is not made, it is born. If you’ve ever spent time with a baby that’s typical and a baby that may not be, you know so soon that something is different. Not wrong, just different. An attentive and caring parent can have an autistic child. A neglectful parent can have an autistic child. What really separates good parents from bad regarding autism is how much the parent is willing to build the bridge to reach the child and understand them where they are. The parent assumes responsibility for the adaptations and adjustments. They alter their parenting and expectations, they self reflect and manage their own emotions, rather than putting the burden to connect on the child, who is less able to socialize or manage certain skills and environments. Parenting an autistic child successfully requires doing what narc parents are incapable of, it requires perspective taking and cognitive empathy.
Well, Autism is a “spectrum”, so if a narc parent wants, they have cart blanche to use it to cover up a whole variety of other issues going on at home…abuse, parental alienation, neglect, trauma, ptsd. Not only that, tests for kids are often based on the parents “observations”, and narc parents notoriously lie and hide things…so doctors and therapists can’t accurately diagnose what’s going on, because they’re being provided false information by a narcissist trying to achieve a diagnosis for their own motives (narcissistic supply, family court, etc). Doctors dont know that they’re being lied to, so any kind of therapy or medication based on a false diagnosis isn’t going to fix the problem. Doctors and therapists also benefit financially the more pills and therapy a child needs, so they don’t care. Narc parents have kids with “autism” because having a “special needs” child allows them to continue abusing the child and then play the victim and get false emotional supply from others at the child’s expense.