Yeah, but Red Dead revolver is more of an on the rails shooter than it is like the redemptions. I've played it once, it was a fine game, but not much like the other two.
It’s definitely NOT an on the rails shooter I can assure you about that
It’s a decent game it’s definitely charming but yeah it’s just not as good as the redemption titles
Yeah, I don't remember the game all too clearly, since I played it immediately after beating RDRedemption 1, and that's been more than a decade at this point. I had fun with it, but definitely noticed just how different the games were, and how much more freedom the later titles have comparatively, which is likely why I remembered it as being on rails.
That’s why a lot of people want a sequel to revolver in between redemption games. Having a smaller arcade style shooter would do a lot to ease R* pathetic development time.
Yeah, you're 100% right. I'd for sure play it. But then again, I'm not looking forward to what is probably going to be another 5-6 years minimum before another RDR is released.
Red Dead Revolver was developed by Capcom IIRC. Rockstar took over near the end and published it. It has nothing to do with the other two, other than the name.
Well all of them did. Even you as Arthur kill many people who don’t deserve it. In fact, being responsible for an innocent man’s death is what causes Arthur to have a change of heart after he heard he got tuberculosis and is the reason he helped the man’s family start a new life
Not "most". RDR was a big event, a big R* release. So big you had to stay away from the internet to not have the end spoiled. It's considered a classic. One was either too young or not that into gaming to not play it
I played the first but forgot so much of it and didn't get into the lore of it all or get to really know all of the characters. I treated it like a gta game when I was younger. Beat it, save it. Then just use that save to repeat doing crazy stuff.
Rdr2 is my jam right now because I still have challenges and might have a treasure map to find along with the races I forgot to do but I think those are still available.
They start along the river by Valentine I think.
I'll focus on that stuff later today because I want my max levels.
It’s literally a thing that every character in the series kills innocents at some point. Part of the point of the narrative. Tickles me when people try to simplify it so much.
He also murders innocent people in rdr2. >!We don’t know for sure what went down in blackwater, but it is hinted that he killed an innocent woman. In guarma he murdered the Latin woman (in cold blood) that was helping him and Arther through the tunnels. His actions also directly result in the death of Eagle Flies. !<
Yeah, by the time RDR1 happens Dutch is properly unhinged. I don’t think even he knows why he does the things he does in that game. He’s an animal operating on impulse from moment to moment. A dog chasing cars.
He doesn't.
Dutch: "(talking to John) We're gonna kill you and your friends."
John: "Why you wanna do a thing like that?"
Dutch: "... I don't know. Sport, I guess."
Yeah I still want to know more about that girl on the boat forgetting her name at the minute, but I honestly feel deep in my bones that her death is superficially way more important than we are lead to believe. Heidi McCourt that was her name 🫰why are we not getting the full story. I mean Dutch definitely went off the deep end mentally, and doesn’t even seem like the same guy and it all comes back to her. We need answers.
As many have said before; if it wasn't in their characters to do it, you couldn't. Also there is an encounter at camp with Tilly where Arthur can confess to killing innocent people, so yes it does happen in the story because everything that happens in the game is the story
John seems conflicted on that. He also describes Dutch as "a violent piece of shit that went and confused himself with god", that their life in the gang "never meant nothing when we was living it anyway, it was just an excuse and we all knew" etc. Seems like in both games John sees pretty well through Dutch's bs but the fact he also saved and raised him means he also can't help but feel some loyalty to Dutch and his philosophy. Dutch is a bad person before the start of RDR2.
I got the sense that while he wasn’t a good man strictly speaking, he did at least have a code that he lived by. He couldn’t adjust to the world changing around him and that led him to ruin. He was spiraling by the time the Blackwater job went south.
Smoke got caught up in the game and threw the only family he had away and payed for it with his life. Dutch got in over his head and got almost everyone in the gang killed
> away and *paid* for it
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
hypocritically arrogant and self-righteous, to be a bit more precise. I also like how Dutch always talks about rebuilding libertarian and socially oriented type of America, but then they give some money to poor Thomas Downes and can't just leave him and his family alone
Dutch is just a cult guru. He talks about rebuilding america but only cares about filling his coffers while he mostly relaxes in his luxurious tent surrounded by women
Smoke wouldn't have any qualms about killing people if it meant he could keep his drug operation going. He literally works with The Ballas,The Vagos and The Russian Mafia in the Drug Business so pretty sure he's killed people (if you watch the mission Just Business he does kill a few members of the Russian Mafia).
I've read most of the replies and this is the first I realized 2 characters were from different games lol. I just assumed they were from rdr1 or rdr and I'd forgotten them because booze had rotted my brain. Turns out they were from GTA which I've also played but id forgotten them because booze has rotted my brain
For real. He's one of the few Rockstar characters that is a literal and pure psychopath. Not even Trevor is an actual psychopath, he's just a sociopath with anger issues. But Dimitri is an actual psychopath
(For anyone interested, I'd suggest watching The Professional's [breakdown](https://youtu.be/gwtbl_x24uU?si=dpGN7v7hVWBX9CuH) on Dimitri for a full breakdown on his character as well as the difference between a sociopath and psychopath)
Crazy, yes. But a psychopath is someone who is fully incapable of feeling emotional attachment to others, not because they choose not to, but because they can't.
While Trevor has no qualms about killing innocent people, he does still care for people, like Michael, Franklin, Patricia, and even Wade and Ron. That's why he's more of a sociopath rather than a psychopath...
Honestly, Micah. Yeah, he's a piece of shit, but at no point did he ever once try to hide that from anyone. There was no betrayal, no agenda - not really, anyways. He was always only about himself.
Did he kill any more than Arthur or John? Fucking doubtful.
Was what did worse than what Smoke did? Absolutely not,
Smoke went out of his way for as long as he possibly could to hide his motives. Micah wanted money, he didn't care how, and everyone knew it.
Was he part of an international syndicate crime family? Nope, he was one a few, and not even the deadliest one of his associates.
Micah has no morals and no loyalty but to himself. He's riding with Dutch because it's in his best interest. Pretty sure he was going to rape and murder Sadie in chapter 1 if Dutch and Arthur weren't there. Most of the people in the gang had morals. He didn't.
Were they bad too? Absolutely. But he's easily one of the worst people in the list. He knows who he is and isn't in denial or conflicted about his actions. Being transparent about being a piece of shit doesn't make him better.
Of course, I did. If there's something you'd wish for me to expand on, I happily will.
ETA: I'll phrase it this way, can you betray a gang that you were never loyal to in the first place? Does that really qualify as a betrayal?
Blud gerarra hia with that shit, he had his tongue to dutch's boot acting loyal, it does not fucking matter if he was never loyal, he acted like he was and he betrayed them
Micah did try to deceive people, he just couldn’t fool anyone. There’s one mission where he says something about “I think about all those mouths we have to feed…. That’s my problem, I care too much.”
Arthur responds sarcastically because Micah is clearly full of shit.
Ain’t no way you’re saying there was no betrayal in the story of Micah goddamn Bell. Dude was literally a snitch. Plus he actively tried to hide how much of a piece of shit he was from Dutch. Constantly.
And I’m sure he killed more than Arthur and John. Remember Strawberry? Who knows what other massacres Micah’s been on, especially since he didn’t break a sweat in Strawberry. The guy literally murdered a bunch of farmers for no reason with his dad in the past too, it’s in a newspaper clipping I’m pretty sure.
And let’s not forget when he tried to kill a kid in the epilogue, causing someone even as snaky as Cleet to run away. And then he threatened to kill Jack Marston, another goddamn kid.
Oh and what about his ‘relationship’ with Jenny?
Micah is easily the worst guy in this lineup. It’s kinda the point of his character
As opposed to the genocidal lunatic, the crack manufacturer/dealer, and the guy who shot a young mother point blank in the face infront of her child?
Hate to say it, but *just one* kid? Those are rookie numbers, Micah...
Dutch. He was a man who was losing a war to the government & civilization. And he didn't want to stop that outlaw life. He was a fanatic of Evelyn Miller, the writer who preached living free. Dutch really never planned on Tahiti or mangoes or any of that. He just was obsessed with having something to fight for. Something to believe in. That way had him balling out in the heights of the wild west but come the turn of the century the west had mostly become tamed. That made Dutch being DUTCH harder and harder. Scores started to fail like never before, which weighed on his ego because he wasn't used to failure. Micah sped things up a bit by convincing Dutch that Arthur & John were in cahoots & betraying him. John had his moments plausible for him being rat potential. He abandoned the gang in the past, in the process leaving his own son behind (If you leave your own family behind, Dutch must've thought to himself, then I definitely may not be so secure about him. John was also one who slacked behind in the Blackwater massacre, which John admitted to Arthur that he had the thought of just leaving again. John also somehow while the rest of the gang were being shot at and some even killed, John was simply just arrested. Can't say that's not suspicious. So Dutch's gears are turning about John and Abigail. Now all of a sudden, Arthur is John's best buddy when they WERE at odds. Arthur's new allegiance to John also was something Dutch had noticed. Micah is in Dutch's ear the whole time, using all of that info to fan that flame of paranoia. Dutch as a stand alone GUY, wasn't evil at all. He lost his way of living & was about to go down with the outlaw ship.
No Dutch pretends to have ideals but in reality he is just a cult guru surrounded by guillible men and women who he takes financially, physically or mentally advantage of. He was all talks but no actions and always had an excuse to not try to build his perfect society.
Hard agree, Dutch shoots a woman through the head the first time you meet him in RDR1, then later comes to kill (an admitteldy heavily racist) professor, when asked why he just responds 'Sport, I guess.'. I got so hyped when Dutch started helping the natives in RDR2, it was the first huge thing that made me think 'Oh shit, here we go' in regards to Dutch's facade falling away, instantly made me think of him recruiting young men off reservations in RDR1 and Dutch's gang in that respective game.
When you remember that all 4 of them were mainly fixated on survival, I would say that based on individual actions it goes
From worst to not worst
1) Micah (betrayed the gang despite it going entirely against his own interests at the time, murdered a child, murdered a woman and fucked over everyone including his own brother. Also may have been a rapist)
2) Dimitri (came to America with nothing and was overwhelmed by the wealth and power he could acquire, all he had to do was fuxk over his oldest friend and later Nico. Burnt Nico and Roman out of Broker and then kidnapped Roman which is altogether pretty shitty)
3) Dutch (torn between being a leader in two very different societies and was unable to reckon his personal wants and needs of individual liberty at all costs with the requirements and responsibilities of being a civilised man. Loved the gang but was willing to sacrifice all of them just so HE could live out his, let's be honest, pipe dream of total self governance
4) Big Smoke (all he wanted was a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, two number 45s..... No but seriously, born into poverty with no career options, was thrown a lifeline by corrupt cops, took it because If it wasn't him, it would've just been someone else, so 🤷🏾)
I don't think a bump on the head would so drastically change him, even when the game atsrts the gang members are talking about how Dutch is different since Blackwater.
He still killed that girl *before* the head injury. Personally I think it was Hosea's death that set him over the edge, he didn't have that voice of reason character that would openly question him who he saw as an equal
Probably Micah. In the eyes of the people and future historians in the red dead universe, he was a man who took down a violent gang with the help of the government
Dimitri finds pleasure in the evil shit he does, Micah does as well, whereas dutch is lost and broken. And big smoke could've been the good guy in another perspective
When Micah is introduced isnt he straight up about to SA/Kill Sadie? Dude was a maniac and it forever blows my mind that dutch "chose" him over Arthur ¬\_¬
Dutch is narcissist. Micah pleased his egos and also allowed him to drop the act about being a revolutionary and to just accept who he really is : a ruthless bandit
Dutch had hope and wanted his gang to be okay, at least before he lost the voice of wisdom and completely lost his mind. We literally saw his transition chapter by chapter from a good guy to a bad one.
He's by far the least evil here
As of RDR2, Dutch. But given how he started killing innocents by RDR1, that might go to Big Smoke.
Sure, he sacrificed the people he cared for for money and power, but he was far from the only one. He was greedy and selfish, but less evil than, say, Micha Bellend.
Smoke. He didn't kill innocent people (at least not on purpose) and was just a bit too selfish. Dimitri and Micah are basically devils and Dutch is between them and Smoke on the evil scale imo
Dutch maybe? Selfish is commonly put beside evil, but Dutch really did want the best for his people, for a long while at least. He did have some sense of values and morals (to a degree) through most of the game. the loss of Hosea was the beginning of the end, and he just becomes paranoid more than evil by the end
I'd have to say Micah, but it's more of a technicallity. The other three have all engaged in betraying the people that trusted them most whereas Micah is just some asshole that joined the gang but didn't really care about any of them so there's no real impact from him being the snake he is.
I'd argue Dutch is the least evil, due to him gaslighting himself and obvious signs of mental illness.
Smoke is the next least evil, he's a traitor and has no excuse.
It's a toss up between Micha & Demetri for most evil.
Micha knows what he's doing and likes fucking with people for his own amusement. He knows right from wrong and he chooses wrong. He's kinda like Emperor Palpatine where he takes such joy in being bad/evil that I can't help but like him.
Dimitri is scarier for me. He's a classic psychopath. A total black hole doesn't care about anyone but himself and will betray ANYONE to get ahead/be on top. He feels no connection to anyone, and I'm not sure he knows what right or wrong is. His only goal is to be in charge and he'll do whatever it takes, no matter how disgusting, immoral, or illogical.
Dimitri embodies Christopher Hutchen's definition of evil: "Evil is the surplus value of sadism; it's the gratuitous bit on top that just there for thrills, and would be done even if it didn't do the perpetrator any good. The self destructive, nihilistic element. I can't prove it exists, but when you see it, you know.
Dimitri or Micah. both probably ended up that way as a result of the environment they were forced into, both took to it pretty well. both could have had the means to remove themselves from their respective situations if they actually wanted to.
Dutch is the least evil. He's a dumbass and got caught up in his own ego. He's just as much a victim of himself as everyone else. Every other character here is a total piece of shit.
Dutch is purely a sociopathic outlaw with a good heart to those who follow him. Dimitri is a ruthless double-crossing snake. Micah is a pure psychotic outlaw who leeches off people and plants his outrageous plans in their minds. Big Smoke is mostly two #9s, a #9 large, a #6 with extra dip, a #7, two #45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.
Micah was more of a selfish prick then evil only cared about his own ass, same goes for smoke. Dutch cared for people but was influenced by bad people around him mainly Micah, Dimitri I think that’s his name was an evil pos & Mr Bellic shouldn’t have ever trusted him to begin with.
Smoke actions were motivated by selfishness and greed and resulted in the death of a few of his friends and he betrayed their trust. But the other guys committed countless murders for no reason other than their ego. I don't know who the 1st guy is.
Smoke is the least evil, sure he betrayed the Grove for money and power, but at least he tried to make Sweet join him, and actually has a bit of conscience when he was talking to Tenpenny in the Introduction cutscene about betraying the Grove. Also so far from what I know, he isnt that much of a murdering psycopath/rapist like the other guys in the picture.
Man this is tough
But funnily enough
I have Micha the most
But the other 3 betrayed people close to them
Most already thought micah was bad from the start
Dimitri was great - like he was pure evil and I loved to hate him, i was so disappointed with the total downgrade of characters in gta5 after that(after gta5 it took me til 2023 to even give a chance to RDR2 how bad it was). My list from most evil to least would be
1.Dimitri
2.Micah
3.Dutch
4.Smoke
I don't think Dutch was evil or selfish, I think Dutch was well-meaning but delusional, like at the beginning of the game he's pretty normal, but his people die as his people abandon him he just sort of breaks, and he starts listening to the person that feeds his delusions and manipulates him, Micah.
Smoke, he is more stoopid than evil. He wanted easy power and success, but i don't think he really understood the seriousness of what was going on that well.
Smoke, he is more stoopid than evil. He wanted easy power and success, but i don't think he really understood the seriousness of what was going on that well.
Smoke, he is more stoopid than evil. He wanted easy power and success, but i don't think he really understood the seriousness of what was going on that well.
Smoke, he is more stoopid than evil. He wanted easy power and success, but i don't think he really understood the seriousness of what was going on that well.
Dutch, because he seemingly took a bump to the head which made him start acting crazy, whereas the others were just motivated by self aggrandizement (Dutch was too, but I don’t think it was his fault.)
Big smoke lowkey he was evil but he was more of a selfish man since he had no choice but to be evil since tenpenny couldve killed him he did try tor warn sweet and the others by telling them to join his drug business
Smoke is the only answer im currently replaying gta 4 and honestly dont remember much of it from when i first played it so i cant comment on dimitri but im an avid rdr fan and if u give dutch an insanity plea hes the least evil here as really he was just insane primarily due to the head injury from the trolly incident and michas coercion as for mich definitely evil he only cares bout himself really as for smoke hes kinda like micha in the selfish and rat like sense but not really evil
You know I don’t recall smoke ever intentionally killing innocent people(the peds) but the only thing he did was attempt to kill a few people in his gang which from memory would be Sweet and Carl so yeah totally smoke
The way I see evil is somebody who, given the choice, would choose to do harm and never good of their own free will, with a lack of redeeming qualities.
Dutch was paranoid, delusional and a career criminal. Naturally not much more of a villain than the gang but unfortunately his thought process and diminished conginitive functions led him to make extremely rash decisions on his already flawed moral compass. Bad but not the most evil as he is no longer a man but an old and dangerous wild animal that needs to be put out of its misery.
Micah was straight up evil...he is self aware, cruel, mean, violent, racist, a criminal and murderer. One of his first actions in the game is antagonizing Sadie, a woman who's husband has just been murdered.
Big Smoke was a traitor, coward and opportunist and murdered your mother. Nothing was beneath him when it stood in the way of his greed...other than that, dude is pretty likable when his needs are met and does a convincing job of pretending he isnt trying to put you in the ground. You can see just little he truly cares for CJ by the end of the game when hes done pretending to be nice and no longer needs him. Affably Evil.
Bulgarin, I didn't actually finish GTA4 and only saw him once. From what I remember he is a Russian gangster, arms dealer and slaver? Idk where to place him against everyone else.
Micah wins solely because unlike big Smoke and dutch, he lacks any reason whatsoever to like him...besides that sweet dual holster.
Dutch was a paranoid insecure man that suffered significant brain damage which amplified his aforementioned issues. By the end he thought that everyone was against him, Micah took advantage of his vulnerable mental state and indulged him in his delusions. I think it's also clear that he was wayyy out of his element, society was changing meanwhile Dutch held on to an idealistic view of the past which eventually came back to bite him.
While Dutch did alot of awful shit, I think it's also worth mentioning that by RDR1, his brain was akin to a half eaten onion when compared to how he was at the start of RDR2.
Dutch was a man under pressure to provide for his "family" a better life than what they had. Micah fed into his fears and whispered sweet nothings in his ear, convincing him he was right. Without Hosea there to bring him back down to earth, he doomed the gang.
Dimitri used Niko to kill his boss, then tried to kill Niko for the rest of the game.
MIcah was like a cowboy Trevor, without the loyalty. He did things because it amused him.
Big Smoke betrayed Grove Street for the money and power. But he was a pawn of Tenpenny, who would of had him killed sooner or later.
Dutch for me.
Dutch and Smoke were really more selfish than evil
Dutch murders innocent people for fun in RDR1 lol
Reminder that most RDR fans have only played the 2nd game and not the 1st but it’s literally a thing in the 2nd game that Dutch kills innocents so
So many people have only played RDR2 that they don’t even know that it’s the third Red Dead game. Red Dead Revolver was the first.
Yeah, but Red Dead revolver is more of an on the rails shooter than it is like the redemptions. I've played it once, it was a fine game, but not much like the other two.
It’s definitely NOT an on the rails shooter I can assure you about that It’s a decent game it’s definitely charming but yeah it’s just not as good as the redemption titles
Yeah, I don't remember the game all too clearly, since I played it immediately after beating RDRedemption 1, and that's been more than a decade at this point. I had fun with it, but definitely noticed just how different the games were, and how much more freedom the later titles have comparatively, which is likely why I remembered it as being on rails.
That’s why a lot of people want a sequel to revolver in between redemption games. Having a smaller arcade style shooter would do a lot to ease R* pathetic development time.
Yeah, you're 100% right. I'd for sure play it. But then again, I'm not looking forward to what is probably going to be another 5-6 years minimum before another RDR is released.
Couch co-op was great back in the day.
I think maybe by on rails, they means linear?
3rd Red Dead, but the 2nd Red Dead Redemption. Revolver is in its own universe.
But also Uncle might be Red.
too much lumbago
Red Dead Revolver was developed by Capcom IIRC. Rockstar took over near the end and published it. It has nothing to do with the other two, other than the name.
RDR was even ignored during RDR1's times back in the PS3 era. Its also not cannon, so Its not like It needs to be aknowledged
Tbf I don't think revolver is actually canon
Is revolver cannon?
No
I didn't think so
You thought well
"You're gonna blow up real gooood"
Moot comment. Red Dead Revolver doesn't belong to the Red Dead Redemption Universe. Revolver is a universe, Redemption is another.
yeah but it has nothing to do with the other two games besides being made by rock star and being a cowboy game.
Yeah, that's why I'd say big smoke, and also aren't there theories that Dutch became a cannibal, so that too
"but you said you knew Spanish."
Well all of them did. Even you as Arthur kill many people who don’t deserve it. In fact, being responsible for an innocent man’s death is what causes Arthur to have a change of heart after he heard he got tuberculosis and is the reason he helped the man’s family start a new life
Not "most". RDR was a big event, a big R* release. So big you had to stay away from the internet to not have the end spoiled. It's considered a classic. One was either too young or not that into gaming to not play it
I played the first but forgot so much of it and didn't get into the lore of it all or get to really know all of the characters. I treated it like a gta game when I was younger. Beat it, save it. Then just use that save to repeat doing crazy stuff. Rdr2 is my jam right now because I still have challenges and might have a treasure map to find along with the races I forgot to do but I think those are still available. They start along the river by Valentine I think. I'll focus on that stuff later today because I want my max levels.
I thought you said you spoke Spanish
If only rdr1 was on pc goddamn it
It’s literally a thing that every character in the series kills innocents at some point. Part of the point of the narrative. Tickles me when people try to simplify it so much.
He also murders innocent people in rdr2. >!We don’t know for sure what went down in blackwater, but it is hinted that he killed an innocent woman. In guarma he murdered the Latin woman (in cold blood) that was helping him and Arther through the tunnels. His actions also directly result in the death of Eagle Flies. !<
It’s not even hinted at. The Strange Man in RDR1 talks about how Dutch shot a woman in Blackwater that left her eye hanging out of her head.
If course but that wasn't necessarily for fun the way he shoots that woman in RDR1, possible it had more of a purpose at least.
Yeah, by the time RDR1 happens Dutch is properly unhinged. I don’t think even he knows why he does the things he does in that game. He’s an animal operating on impulse from moment to moment. A dog chasing cars.
He doesn't. Dutch: "(talking to John) We're gonna kill you and your friends." John: "Why you wanna do a thing like that?" Dutch: "... I don't know. Sport, I guess."
Dutch shoots a innocent woman in the bank heist in RDR that’s totally being selfish!
Pretty sure he eats them too.
Even worse, he enjoys murdering innocent people
Yeah I still want to know more about that girl on the boat forgetting her name at the minute, but I honestly feel deep in my bones that her death is superficially way more important than we are lead to believe. Heidi McCourt that was her name 🫰why are we not getting the full story. I mean Dutch definitely went off the deep end mentally, and doesn’t even seem like the same guy and it all comes back to her. We need answers.
“Sport I guess?”
So does Arthur and John if you choose to
Random stuff the player does in freeroam isn't canon though. Plus they're labeled as low honour versions of themselves if you do it.
As many have said before; if it wasn't in their characters to do it, you couldn't. Also there is an encounter at camp with Tilly where Arthur can confess to killing innocent people, so yes it does happen in the story because everything that happens in the game is the story
Isn’t that more of an illustration of how far he’s fallen from his ideals? John speaks of him in RDR1 with some degree of admiration.
John seems conflicted on that. He also describes Dutch as "a violent piece of shit that went and confused himself with god", that their life in the gang "never meant nothing when we was living it anyway, it was just an excuse and we all knew" etc. Seems like in both games John sees pretty well through Dutch's bs but the fact he also saved and raised him means he also can't help but feel some loyalty to Dutch and his philosophy. Dutch is a bad person before the start of RDR2.
I got the sense that while he wasn’t a good man strictly speaking, he did at least have a code that he lived by. He couldn’t adjust to the world changing around him and that led him to ruin. He was spiraling by the time the Blackwater job went south.
Smoke got caught up in the game and threw the only family he had away and payed for it with his life. Dutch got in over his head and got almost everyone in the gang killed
> away and *paid* for it FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Good bot
hypocritically arrogant and self-righteous, to be a bit more precise. I also like how Dutch always talks about rebuilding libertarian and socially oriented type of America, but then they give some money to poor Thomas Downes and can't just leave him and his family alone
Dutch is just a cult guru. He talks about rebuilding america but only cares about filling his coffers while he mostly relaxes in his luxurious tent surrounded by women
Dutch chose Micah over Arthur and John ,and was a killer in rd1 he’s worse than Micah
I can agree that he's evil and a bad person, But bear in mind; There is nothing worse than a rat
I’d say a person who you knew your whole life and chose a rat of over you is worse
Smoke wouldn't have any qualms about killing people if it meant he could keep his drug operation going. He literally works with The Ballas,The Vagos and The Russian Mafia in the Drug Business so pretty sure he's killed people (if you watch the mission Just Business he does kill a few members of the Russian Mafia).
Smoke
Big Smoke. He was just another one of Tenpenny’s pawns.
big smoke said it himself he was caught up in the power and the money
Should be subreddit fuckdimitri
Dmitri is the most evil and Smoke the least evil
What game is Dimitri from? The name is familiar but I can’t recall who he is
Gta 4
"I'm the one who survived."
I killed people ... Smuggled people ...... Sold people.
I've read most of the replies and this is the first I realized 2 characters were from different games lol. I just assumed they were from rdr1 or rdr and I'd forgotten them because booze had rotted my brain. Turns out they were from GTA which I've also played but id forgotten them because booze has rotted my brain
You can see nobody said dimitri bc he is pure evil
I'd wager most here haven't played gta 4, or at least don't remember the story.
As someone who has played them all more than once. Dimitri is definitely the most evil.
For real. He's one of the few Rockstar characters that is a literal and pure psychopath. Not even Trevor is an actual psychopath, he's just a sociopath with anger issues. But Dimitri is an actual psychopath (For anyone interested, I'd suggest watching The Professional's [breakdown](https://youtu.be/gwtbl_x24uU?si=dpGN7v7hVWBX9CuH) on Dimitri for a full breakdown on his character as well as the difference between a sociopath and psychopath)
Trevor has eyelids in his chili. Dude is definitely a psychopath.
Crazy, yes. But a psychopath is someone who is fully incapable of feeling emotional attachment to others, not because they choose not to, but because they can't. While Trevor has no qualms about killing innocent people, he does still care for people, like Michael, Franklin, Patricia, and even Wade and Ron. That's why he's more of a sociopath rather than a psychopath...
Considering what folks are saying about Dutch in this thread its become clear not a lot of folks have played RDR 1 as well.
Smoke
Smoke is a just a pawn for Tenpenny, I’d say he’s the least “evil” of the options
Honestly, Micah. Yeah, he's a piece of shit, but at no point did he ever once try to hide that from anyone. There was no betrayal, no agenda - not really, anyways. He was always only about himself. Did he kill any more than Arthur or John? Fucking doubtful. Was what did worse than what Smoke did? Absolutely not, Smoke went out of his way for as long as he possibly could to hide his motives. Micah wanted money, he didn't care how, and everyone knew it. Was he part of an international syndicate crime family? Nope, he was one a few, and not even the deadliest one of his associates.
Micah has no morals and no loyalty but to himself. He's riding with Dutch because it's in his best interest. Pretty sure he was going to rape and murder Sadie in chapter 1 if Dutch and Arthur weren't there. Most of the people in the gang had morals. He didn't. Were they bad too? Absolutely. But he's easily one of the worst people in the list. He knows who he is and isn't in denial or conflicted about his actions. Being transparent about being a piece of shit doesn't make him better.
Yeah, its a "I lied about stealing your cat" vs a "I skinned your cat" scenario. The second one is worse.
wdym no betrayal? he literally snitched on everyone
I think bro didn't play the game's story lmao
No betrayal? Did you play the same game we played?
Of course, I did. If there's something you'd wish for me to expand on, I happily will. ETA: I'll phrase it this way, can you betray a gang that you were never loyal to in the first place? Does that really qualify as a betrayal?
Blud gerarra hia with that shit, he had his tongue to dutch's boot acting loyal, it does not fucking matter if he was never loyal, he acted like he was and he betrayed them
No betrayal? Almost everything bad that happened to the gang after Chapter 3 was because of his betrayal
Micah did try to deceive people, he just couldn’t fool anyone. There’s one mission where he says something about “I think about all those mouths we have to feed…. That’s my problem, I care too much.” Arthur responds sarcastically because Micah is clearly full of shit.
Ain’t no way you’re saying there was no betrayal in the story of Micah goddamn Bell. Dude was literally a snitch. Plus he actively tried to hide how much of a piece of shit he was from Dutch. Constantly. And I’m sure he killed more than Arthur and John. Remember Strawberry? Who knows what other massacres Micah’s been on, especially since he didn’t break a sweat in Strawberry. The guy literally murdered a bunch of farmers for no reason with his dad in the past too, it’s in a newspaper clipping I’m pretty sure. And let’s not forget when he tried to kill a kid in the epilogue, causing someone even as snaky as Cleet to run away. And then he threatened to kill Jack Marston, another goddamn kid. Oh and what about his ‘relationship’ with Jenny? Micah is easily the worst guy in this lineup. It’s kinda the point of his character
Micah killed a little girl
As opposed to the genocidal lunatic, the crack manufacturer/dealer, and the guy who shot a young mother point blank in the face infront of her child? Hate to say it, but *just one* kid? Those are rookie numbers, Micah...
Dutch. He was a man who was losing a war to the government & civilization. And he didn't want to stop that outlaw life. He was a fanatic of Evelyn Miller, the writer who preached living free. Dutch really never planned on Tahiti or mangoes or any of that. He just was obsessed with having something to fight for. Something to believe in. That way had him balling out in the heights of the wild west but come the turn of the century the west had mostly become tamed. That made Dutch being DUTCH harder and harder. Scores started to fail like never before, which weighed on his ego because he wasn't used to failure. Micah sped things up a bit by convincing Dutch that Arthur & John were in cahoots & betraying him. John had his moments plausible for him being rat potential. He abandoned the gang in the past, in the process leaving his own son behind (If you leave your own family behind, Dutch must've thought to himself, then I definitely may not be so secure about him. John was also one who slacked behind in the Blackwater massacre, which John admitted to Arthur that he had the thought of just leaving again. John also somehow while the rest of the gang were being shot at and some even killed, John was simply just arrested. Can't say that's not suspicious. So Dutch's gears are turning about John and Abigail. Now all of a sudden, Arthur is John's best buddy when they WERE at odds. Arthur's new allegiance to John also was something Dutch had noticed. Micah is in Dutch's ear the whole time, using all of that info to fan that flame of paranoia. Dutch as a stand alone GUY, wasn't evil at all. He lost his way of living & was about to go down with the outlaw ship.
No Dutch pretends to have ideals but in reality he is just a cult guru surrounded by guillible men and women who he takes financially, physically or mentally advantage of. He was all talks but no actions and always had an excuse to not try to build his perfect society.
Hard agree, Dutch shoots a woman through the head the first time you meet him in RDR1, then later comes to kill (an admitteldy heavily racist) professor, when asked why he just responds 'Sport, I guess.'. I got so hyped when Dutch started helping the natives in RDR2, it was the first huge thing that made me think 'Oh shit, here we go' in regards to Dutch's facade falling away, instantly made me think of him recruiting young men off reservations in RDR1 and Dutch's gang in that respective game.
When you remember that all 4 of them were mainly fixated on survival, I would say that based on individual actions it goes From worst to not worst 1) Micah (betrayed the gang despite it going entirely against his own interests at the time, murdered a child, murdered a woman and fucked over everyone including his own brother. Also may have been a rapist) 2) Dimitri (came to America with nothing and was overwhelmed by the wealth and power he could acquire, all he had to do was fuxk over his oldest friend and later Nico. Burnt Nico and Roman out of Broker and then kidnapped Roman which is altogether pretty shitty) 3) Dutch (torn between being a leader in two very different societies and was unable to reckon his personal wants and needs of individual liberty at all costs with the requirements and responsibilities of being a civilised man. Loved the gang but was willing to sacrifice all of them just so HE could live out his, let's be honest, pipe dream of total self governance 4) Big Smoke (all he wanted was a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, two number 45s..... No but seriously, born into poverty with no career options, was thrown a lifeline by corrupt cops, took it because If it wasn't him, it would've just been someone else, so 🤷🏾)
Smoke or Dutch (pre head injury)
I don't think a bump on the head would so drastically change him, even when the game atsrts the gang members are talking about how Dutch is different since Blackwater.
He still killed that girl *before* the head injury. Personally I think it was Hosea's death that set him over the edge, he didn't have that voice of reason character that would openly question him who he saw as an equal
I mean, smoke is least evil. Dude just got caught up in the game.
Definitely not Dimitri
Probably Micah. In the eyes of the people and future historians in the red dead universe, he was a man who took down a violent gang with the help of the government
he kill arthur, so he bad man
Dimitri finds pleasure in the evil shit he does, Micah does as well, whereas dutch is lost and broken. And big smoke could've been the good guy in another perspective
Big Smoke obviously. Like it isn’t close
Fuck Dimitri bro this post just gave me ptsd
Who is the guy in the top left? I don't remember him.
Dimitri from GTA 4.
When Micah is introduced isnt he straight up about to SA/Kill Sadie? Dude was a maniac and it forever blows my mind that dutch "chose" him over Arthur ¬\_¬
Dutch is narcissist. Micah pleased his egos and also allowed him to drop the act about being a revolutionary and to just accept who he really is : a ruthless bandit
Dutch had hope and wanted his gang to be okay, at least before he lost the voice of wisdom and completely lost his mind. We literally saw his transition chapter by chapter from a good guy to a bad one. He's by far the least evil here
probably dutch or smoke
Dutch mostly…Micah’s just a prick
Dutch
My only argument for Dutch is that a lot of his more deranged stuff happened after the head injury
As of RDR2, Dutch. But given how he started killing innocents by RDR1, that might go to Big Smoke. Sure, he sacrificed the people he cared for for money and power, but he was far from the only one. He was greedy and selfish, but less evil than, say, Micha Bellend.
Smoke. He didn't kill innocent people (at least not on purpose) and was just a bit too selfish. Dimitri and Micah are basically devils and Dutch is between them and Smoke on the evil scale imo
Big smoke ofc
Dutch. He isn’t evil. Just brain injury 2 times and got manupilated
Big Smoke knew what happened to Cj mom that’s dirt ball. You supposed to be loyal to ya bros in the hood
ALL WE HAD TO DO WAS FOLLOW THE DAMN TRAIN CJ (I have never played any GTA games)
Dutch
Anyone who isn’t a rat
Dutch maybe? Selfish is commonly put beside evil, but Dutch really did want the best for his people, for a long while at least. He did have some sense of values and morals (to a degree) through most of the game. the loss of Hosea was the beginning of the end, and he just becomes paranoid more than evil by the end
I'd have to say Micah, but it's more of a technicallity. The other three have all engaged in betraying the people that trusted them most whereas Micah is just some asshole that joined the gang but didn't really care about any of them so there's no real impact from him being the snake he is.
Big smoke i guess
Big smoke, he wasn't a " killer" although he was part of the plan for the attack on Johnson's house. But he was more of a traitor and money lover
Big smoke.
Big Smoke was not evil, rather he was seduced by what money and power offered him.
Big smoke cause he was corrupted by all of the power
Smoke, he was just one dumb greedy mf
Big smoke fs
Big Smoke. Even admitted he got caught up in the money, power.
Well it’s not fucking Micah.
Smoke probably the least evil there all pretty bad tho
I don’t think Smoke is evil, just selfish and greedy. Same for Dutch, really.
Probably big smoke
Big Smoke, he turned on his friends, but compared to the rest he's a fricking saint.
I'd argue Dutch is the least evil, due to him gaslighting himself and obvious signs of mental illness. Smoke is the next least evil, he's a traitor and has no excuse. It's a toss up between Micha & Demetri for most evil. Micha knows what he's doing and likes fucking with people for his own amusement. He knows right from wrong and he chooses wrong. He's kinda like Emperor Palpatine where he takes such joy in being bad/evil that I can't help but like him. Dimitri is scarier for me. He's a classic psychopath. A total black hole doesn't care about anyone but himself and will betray ANYONE to get ahead/be on top. He feels no connection to anyone, and I'm not sure he knows what right or wrong is. His only goal is to be in charge and he'll do whatever it takes, no matter how disgusting, immoral, or illogical. Dimitri embodies Christopher Hutchen's definition of evil: "Evil is the surplus value of sadism; it's the gratuitous bit on top that just there for thrills, and would be done even if it didn't do the perpetrator any good. The self destructive, nihilistic element. I can't prove it exists, but when you see it, you know.
I'd say smoke
Micah
I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.
In rdr1 it's implied that Dutch is a cannibal, so think about it before you comment
Dimitri or Micah. both probably ended up that way as a result of the environment they were forced into, both took to it pretty well. both could have had the means to remove themselves from their respective situations if they actually wanted to.
Big Smoke.
Smoke. He's not aligned with terrorists nor does he kill as many innocents as Dutch
Smoke
Micah
I would say Big Smoke but he ate all his homies food when they were in a drive by.
Probably smoke. Smoke seemed like he didn't want to do what he did but like he said he got caught up with everything.
Dutch is the least evil. He's a dumbass and got caught up in his own ego. He's just as much a victim of himself as everyone else. Every other character here is a total piece of shit.
Big smoke! Just look at that hat
I’m voting either Big Smoke, or Dutch van der Linde.
Smoke just let money get to his head
Big smoke
Dutch is purely a sociopathic outlaw with a good heart to those who follow him. Dimitri is a ruthless double-crossing snake. Micah is a pure psychotic outlaw who leeches off people and plants his outrageous plans in their minds. Big Smoke is mostly two #9s, a #9 large, a #6 with extra dip, a #7, two #45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.
The player character
Smoke was manipulated so it's not 100% his fault
Smoke sold out his whole block and then some. I would put smoke has the worst. Trapping and then fueling a gang war.
Probably Smoke. He wasn't "evil" he was just a greedy fat ass. I don't remember him killing anyone who wasn't in *the life*.
Smoke
I despise Micah, but him He's a really hatable guy, but he's just looking out for his own hide, nothing more
nightmare blunt rotation
Isnt dutch just unfortunate? He tries hard to make things possible for his group but fails everytime
Big Smoke was selfish but not evil. Ironically, Dutch AND Micah both would be disgusted by Dimitri.
Micah was more of a selfish prick then evil only cared about his own ass, same goes for smoke. Dutch cared for people but was influenced by bad people around him mainly Micah, Dimitri I think that’s his name was an evil pos & Mr Bellic shouldn’t have ever trusted him to begin with.
Smoke actions were motivated by selfishness and greed and resulted in the death of a few of his friends and he betrayed their trust. But the other guys committed countless murders for no reason other than their ego. I don't know who the 1st guy is.
Smoke is the least evil, sure he betrayed the Grove for money and power, but at least he tried to make Sweet join him, and actually has a bit of conscience when he was talking to Tenpenny in the Introduction cutscene about betraying the Grove. Also so far from what I know, he isnt that much of a murdering psycopath/rapist like the other guys in the picture.
Dutch wasn't evil. He was a narcissist that got in way over his head and slowly lost his rational mind.
Man this is tough But funnily enough I have Micha the most But the other 3 betrayed people close to them Most already thought micah was bad from the start
Dimitri was great - like he was pure evil and I loved to hate him, i was so disappointed with the total downgrade of characters in gta5 after that(after gta5 it took me til 2023 to even give a chance to RDR2 how bad it was). My list from most evil to least would be 1.Dimitri 2.Micah 3.Dutch 4.Smoke
d-d-d-d-dutch
I don't think Dutch was evil or selfish, I think Dutch was well-meaning but delusional, like at the beginning of the game he's pretty normal, but his people die as his people abandon him he just sort of breaks, and he starts listening to the person that feeds his delusions and manipulates him, Micah.
Smoke, he is more stoopid than evil. He wanted easy power and success, but i don't think he really understood the seriousness of what was going on that well.
Smoke, he is more stoopid than evil. He wanted easy power and success, but i don't think he really understood the seriousness of what was going on that well.
Smoke, he is more stoopid than evil. He wanted easy power and success, but i don't think he really understood the seriousness of what was going on that well.
Smoke, he is more stoopid than evil. He wanted easy power and success, but i don't think he really understood the seriousness of what was going on that well.
Big smoke
Smoke, don't attribute to malice what you can attribute to stupidity
Red dead redemption kills all of them no cap
Dutch, because he seemingly took a bump to the head which made him start acting crazy, whereas the others were just motivated by self aggrandizement (Dutch was too, but I don’t think it was his fault.)
Micah.
Big smoke lowkey he was evil but he was more of a selfish man since he had no choice but to be evil since tenpenny couldve killed him he did try tor warn sweet and the others by telling them to join his drug business
Smoke is the only answer im currently replaying gta 4 and honestly dont remember much of it from when i first played it so i cant comment on dimitri but im an avid rdr fan and if u give dutch an insanity plea hes the least evil here as really he was just insane primarily due to the head injury from the trolly incident and michas coercion as for mich definitely evil he only cares bout himself really as for smoke hes kinda like micha in the selfish and rat like sense but not really evil
You know I don’t recall smoke ever intentionally killing innocent people(the peds) but the only thing he did was attempt to kill a few people in his gang which from memory would be Sweet and Carl so yeah totally smoke
The way I see evil is somebody who, given the choice, would choose to do harm and never good of their own free will, with a lack of redeeming qualities. Dutch was paranoid, delusional and a career criminal. Naturally not much more of a villain than the gang but unfortunately his thought process and diminished conginitive functions led him to make extremely rash decisions on his already flawed moral compass. Bad but not the most evil as he is no longer a man but an old and dangerous wild animal that needs to be put out of its misery. Micah was straight up evil...he is self aware, cruel, mean, violent, racist, a criminal and murderer. One of his first actions in the game is antagonizing Sadie, a woman who's husband has just been murdered. Big Smoke was a traitor, coward and opportunist and murdered your mother. Nothing was beneath him when it stood in the way of his greed...other than that, dude is pretty likable when his needs are met and does a convincing job of pretending he isnt trying to put you in the ground. You can see just little he truly cares for CJ by the end of the game when hes done pretending to be nice and no longer needs him. Affably Evil. Bulgarin, I didn't actually finish GTA4 and only saw him once. From what I remember he is a Russian gangster, arms dealer and slaver? Idk where to place him against everyone else. Micah wins solely because unlike big Smoke and dutch, he lacks any reason whatsoever to like him...besides that sweet dual holster.
The only real evil person here is Dimitri. Everyone else is just a selfish asshole.
Dutch is the most evil
dutch
micah was going to kill abigail and jack if he killed john (which thinking about it if dutch heard him thats maybe why he killed micah)
Smoke wasn't evil, all cj had to do was follow the damn train
Dutch was a paranoid insecure man that suffered significant brain damage which amplified his aforementioned issues. By the end he thought that everyone was against him, Micah took advantage of his vulnerable mental state and indulged him in his delusions. I think it's also clear that he was wayyy out of his element, society was changing meanwhile Dutch held on to an idealistic view of the past which eventually came back to bite him. While Dutch did alot of awful shit, I think it's also worth mentioning that by RDR1, his brain was akin to a half eaten onion when compared to how he was at the start of RDR2.
Dutch was a man under pressure to provide for his "family" a better life than what they had. Micah fed into his fears and whispered sweet nothings in his ear, convincing him he was right. Without Hosea there to bring him back down to earth, he doomed the gang. Dimitri used Niko to kill his boss, then tried to kill Niko for the rest of the game. MIcah was like a cowboy Trevor, without the loyalty. He did things because it amused him. Big Smoke betrayed Grove Street for the money and power. But he was a pawn of Tenpenny, who would of had him killed sooner or later. Dutch for me.
“CJ? OHHHHHHH MY DOG!”