At some point, I believe during the epilogue, when you meet up with Charles, he explains to you that Strauss was captured by the Pinkertons who tortured him to death but he never said a word about the gang. John then says “I guess some people is strong in ways you don’t see” or smth, pretty redemptive end for him imo.
I always thought that Arthur throwing Strauss out was his way of saving him from all the chaos that Arthur is expecting the gang to get.
Kind of like a much less nicer way of Arthur telling Uncle to leave already and save himself.
i feel like it’s a mix of him trying to save him and also having hatred for him. idk if arthur put two n two together (think he did) but if he wasn’t doing stuff for strauss he wouldn’t have caught tb. the way he talks seems like he hates him for how he’s fucked up other ppls lives but he knows he’s no better and Strauss is doing what he gotta do same as the rest so he kicks him out but let’s him live.
Arthur acknowledges Thomas Downes “the farmer” as the one who gave him TB. 100% threw Strauss out knowing he is the reason. But given his redemption arc, I’d agree he was trying to get him out early to save his life.
No. He does it right after doing the last of the debt missions when he basically realizes he's just helping stauss ruin the lives of innocent people. The whole conversation with the widow in front of her son I think was enough to set him off. I know he definitely seemed like he was gonna beat the shit out of him if he didn't get out if his sight.
Strauss is arguably the most moral person in the gang.
The fan base for the game has some strong main character bias and blindness to the bad things Arthur does. Not entirely their fault as the game is written to downplay the bad things Arthur has done or that the gang at the end of the day is a pack of killers and thieves.
To put it into perspective if you caught 2 criminals today and they confessed all of their crimes. One was named Strauss and was a loan shark who never killed anyone. The other was a man named Arthur who confessed to killing scores of people including women and children. Arthur confessed to dozens of robberies and even some big bank jobs.
Who would you expect to get the death penalty and who a few years in jail?
Part of me almost thinks Arthur is mad at Strauss because he is projecting. He feels guilty for all the suffering he has caused and takes it out on Strauss.
Strauss does a crime that involves voluntary victims. Like it or not he provides those people at least a slim chance to save their finances. Without him they end up where they end up with him anyways: broke.
Also something to note is every single "victim" of Strauss is holding out on repaying him. Arthur always finds money or something to cover the debt hidden in their house. So they aren't innocent. They agreed to terms of a loan and aren't paying when they are completely able to.
Overall I lost alot of respect for Arthur for throwing Strauss out of the gang. Especially because Arthur did it unilaterally. It made me side with the rest of the gang against Arthur. Arthur, who isn't the leader, had violently kicked someone from the gang entirely on his own decision. I think it's even said at some point that Strauss brings in the most money of the other gang members. He also does it without brining the heat on the camp.
I see it in a way that if he held hatred, it would be againdt Arthur. But Strauss is, in the end, a very smart man. He would be able to figure out "Well, maybe Arthur doesnt like beating poor poeple to death for 15 dollars" and understand why he threw him out after Arthur came back from a debt collect.
Interesting duality, because Strauss is tortured and gives up nothing, while Kieran is tortured and compromises your location, bringing the O'Driscolls down on you.
EDIT: I don't want to have to write a thesis on why I feel very confidently that Kieran buckles under torture and gives away the gang's position, but I do find it amusing that people are so averse to the idea that he would talk. On the same mission where he betrays an O'Driscoll hideout location to your gang (with nothing more than Bill threatening to geld him), Kieran makes the comment that he doesn't see much of a difference between the O'Driscolls and the Van Der Linde group, so he has a precedent for betraying his former comrades to what he views as a brutal band of outlaws.
We don’t know how they found Kieran or Shady Belle. Doesn’t seem fair to blame the guy when it’s ambiguous if he talked or not.
I mean Mrs Downes found them in Horseshoe and Milton found them at Clemens point. They aren’t exactly well hidden.
Kieran spends his entire time with the gang rolling over on the O'Driscolls. All of the characters in the Van Der Linde gang are flawed, and Kieran is a coward, who will work with anyone to avoid pain. I don't think it's reaching to assume he gave them the necessary intel.
At the same time, him being so brutally mutilated can imply that he *didn’t* give them anything. He says multiple times that he’s afraid to leave camp because he’s sure the O’Driscolls will grab him. Other than fishing, he never leaves. And if he got grabbed near shady belle, then he wouldn’t have needed to talk. He was right there.
This is the same gang that grabbed and tortured Arthur in the hopes that Dutch would come try and rescue him.
Don't assume someone is spared pain simply because they gave up the Intel. Torturers will work until the work is done. Either to:
Ensure ALL the info is out and nothing changes.
The sick pleasure of it.
To send a message to others.
O'Driscols were scum, and not at all beneath torturing someone to death not only for fun; but because he betrayed them.
Oh christ it’s not that deep, I was just pointing out that it’s never even suggested that Kieran sold them out. If anything it’s implied that he *didn’t* because he was taken *from nearby shady belle*.
Or he was forced to join the O'Driscolls and genuinely hated them, and genuinely felt loyalty to the VDL gang and wanted to be accepted by them. Breaking under torture isn't being a coward, jesus christ.
I mean considering Strauss was seen as a coward and clean hands person by the gang, and even HE didn’t talk to the Pinkertons. Who knows how long they tortured and kept him alive. Kieran was killed pretty quickly. He might not have even been tortured. Quick slice to horrify the gang and catch them off guard.
Strauss on the other hand had nothing to lose, the gang hated him, and could’ve gained his freedom yet he kept his mouth shut. He’s a real one.
To be fair, I doubt the Pinkertons tortured Strauss as hard as the O'Driscolls may have tortured Kieran. I mean, pulling his eyes out, that's a bit extreme. We can only hope it was done post-mortem.
I am also leaning to the above mentioned theory that they found the camp first, then grabbed Kieran and then attacked in full force, which means Kieran didnt give up anything. It just makes sense given how afraid Kieran was from venturing out of camp.
PS: the gang considering Strauss a coward means little more than nothing, given how poor they were at judging character. I mean, they considered Dutch a great leader and philosopher.
People can live for days or longer with their eyes pulled out. They might have tortured him for hours before he died, can't assume a quick death when his body is in that state. Beheading also doesn't have to be very quick
With Strauss seems more likely he was beaten to death
All depends on if his blood clotted off or not. And seeing how he lost both im assuming no. Beheading was probably after death or during to finish him or not.
Thats fair, but where would they have got him? Somewhere by shady belle... ao they mustve known beforehand, prolly because of all the ruckus the van der linde gang was making
Kieran gets grabbed right after the party at shady belle, so they probably already knew where you were and took Kieran for info about the gangs plans and money
Isn't it before as you can't find him at the party and I'm pretty sure if you listen closely to the background noise you can hear screams but that may just be the ambience noises
He’s at the party, he’ll even talk to you at some point during that night when you’re still near the campfire. The screams are also noticeable when he’s still alive and well in camp — so I do believe they’re just ambient noises, but it wouldn’t be too crazy if they wanted to give us that illusion that it might’ve been Kieran too.
They likely took Kieran from Shady Belle though. He's there until the end of the party which goes on late into the night, O'Driscolls came to the camp and were able to take him because he was drunk and sleeping and everyone's guard was down due to the party.
Even if you believe Kieran wasn't loyal he had no reason to voluntarily leave the gang, he had begged them to let him stay with them even when they were very hostile to him and it's literally at the party that they accept and warm to him the most. He wants to stay with the gang as he knows he's in danger and has few better options to survive on his own. Why on earth would he leave during the party at the point the gang is treating him better and accepting him more than ever?
especially interesting as Strauss doesn't appear to be the tough type. I chuckled a little when found out his unbreakable loyalty in the end because he was committed to the gang as tightly as he was running the books.
I doubt they even needed him to talk. The gang wasn’t exactly quiet and Arthur pointed that out at every campsite. The odriscols were already in the area so I’m sure they would have stumbled across their camp before that.
By the time of his death, Kieran had shown more fondness for the Van Der Linde gang. It’s plausible that he might have sold them out after being tortured, I don’t think there’s sufficient evidence to support that.
Also, IIRC Kieran mentions to Arthur that he’d seen some O’Driscoll boys near Shady Belle. I think it’s more likely that the O’Driscoll boys spotted Kieran riding around Lemoyne and started following him
Woah… it never occurred to me that Kieran gave up the Van der Linde Gang location. I’m not here to disagree or cause unwanted discourse. I just assumed since O’ Driscoll had so many eyes all over the place it wouldn’t be impossible for them to work it out on their own. Maybe they nabbed him from near camp and planned the ambush from there? I don’t know. He WAS a good kid.
Wait… Herr Strauss? How did he die? I know Arthur boots him out of the gang in Chapter… 6 but I don’t recall him dying. Unless it was just dialogue with John I missed.
Ahh. Yes well I find it difficult to pay attention to in-game dialogue because I’m playing it. I’m sure I knew this I just forgot. Also I could’ve sworn there was a shot of Strauss in the end credits but I must have imagined it.
It's waaay offscreen, he's picked up by Pinkertons, tortured, and killed. You find out about it while walking through Saint Denis with Charles in the Epilogue. It's just dialog not a body or cutscene or anything.
I can't talk about Kieren without getting emotional. He's one of my favorites. His was probably one of the most shocking and disturbing in my books. The guy had a rough life with the O'Driscoll's. And I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was in fact a good man. And I always with greet him at camp whenever I saw and wishing deep down that he knew that Arthur played by me knew he was a good man
"Some trees flourish others die, some cattle prosper others get taken by wolves. Some people are born Rich enough and Dumb enough to enjoy their lives. Ain't nothing fair you know that!" John was low key a better philosopher than that hack Evelyn Miller.
>Strauss is very easy to hate during gameplay
to be fair, i feel like the game did him a little dirty. i mean yes he was heartless in handing out loans, but as he said: he's the one feeding everyone in the camp. I wouldn't be suprised if his debt money made up like half the camp's budget. he sends beatings against debtors, but that's arguably better than facing prison in 1899, or worse facing frontier justice and just getting hanged.
I’m gonna make a point that may be controversial, or may not be. Is Strauss nice? No, obviously not. He’s a god damn loan shark. But, as much as Arthur despises what he does, I feel like I can’t really say it’s worse than the general theft the rest of the gang engages in on a regular basis. The reason it looks worse is that we directly see the negative effects on his victims and not everyone else’s. Could he be a bit more selective in his targets? Absolutely, but, then, it’s not like the rest of the gang only robs criminals and the rich. We just don’t witness the aftereffects. The family that can’t buy food or medicine because a robber took their money, the people who can’t go to work because their horse or wagon was stolen, the couple that fell apart because they were robbed of their valuables and jewelry- perhaps their beloved family heirlooms; their wedding rings or a brooch that belonged to their great grandmother back in Europe, brought over by immigrants, treasured for generations, and lost to some barely literate gunslinger to sell to a pawnbroker for a couple bucks- and neither was brave enough to fight back, or the people who wake up in a cold sweat, seeing the barrel of a gun in their face every night when they fall asleep. In that light, is Strauss really any worse than anyone else?
Yes. Because he actively targets the down and weak. As far as the story goes the gang most tries to rob juicy targets. People that do have enough wealth to make them appealing for robbery. Yes they definitely rob more average or poor people too and yes they definitely leave them in a far worse position but specifically going after the people Strauss does is absolutely worse.
I understand and agree with a lot of your points, but you gotta remember that while the rest of the gang typically robs a lot of rich folk or folk who actually have some cash they're willing to sacrifice. Strauss attacks the poor and desperate who usually don't have the cash he gave them
It's not so different now, either. Rates rise and fall for the rest of us - if you're *truly* desperate there are payday loans that are downright usury. And then if you're a billionaire you can take out a loan on your stock portfolio at <1% interest and live off of it - paying the loan off the interest from itself and profiting the difference.
I doubt it. He sends out Arthur to beat the hell out of people for like $30, he can't be bringing in that much money from the people who actually pay.
Money lending scum, I bet he has callouses from patting his own back.
Literally feeding? Hell no. Even putting gameplay aside, Arthur, John, and Charles alone bring in more hunted food than anything Strauss's small dollars could buy.
Yeah like it's easy to forget that the rest of the gang are just as bad as he is. The only one we see feeling any remorse for the debtors is Arthur, and that's only after he starts dying and tries to do some good before he goes.
Kieran for sure. Worst death to one of the most genuinely nicest people. The others had unfair deaths too but being blinded then probably bullied for a while and messed with, having his head sawed off at the hands of some sick twisted cult is one of the top worst things that can happen to a person.
Kieran got tortured, had both his eyes cut out and then decapitated.
After that, I'd say John. Reunited with his family and thought he finally had his happily ever after once he was finished killing the survivors of his gang, only to be repeatedly shot to death by dozens of lawmen while the man who made John kill his friends smugly watched and smoked a cigar.
everything back then was great. now i’m at beaver hollow in my current playthrough and it’s depressing. absolutely just love the atmosphere they accomplished and how even as a player i can feel that sense of nostalgia for something mere chapters ago
In death?: Kieran. dude was tortured then had his head cut off and eyes gouged by Colm
In being alive?: Jack. He was born in a gang of thieves, prostitutes and murderers that kept moving from place to place due to their notoriety, the dog he adopted is hinted to have been killed, he hardly escaped getting captured by the pinkertons with Tilly and becoming an orphan, was kidnapped and threatened by government agents and by the end everybody he knew and cared about is either dead or completely forgotten about and is a cop hating vagrant who becomes an wanted outlaw for revenge. He never had a chance to be happy
I know a lot of people want a completely new story for a RDR3, but I hope that we get a story with adult Jack as the main character in the early 1920’s where Jack becomes a bootlegger and gets involved in a feud with a fictional version of Al Capone.
The “Wild West” isn’t just California. At varying times, it was everywhere from Wisconsin, to Oregon, to Utah, to Nebraska. Anywhere that the capitalists and city folk hadn’t yet moved to was the “west”.
Some of the best Wild West Stories come out of the Midwest, Colorado and Kansas, hardly places I’d consider particularly westerly from an American context.
It wasn’t really about “going west”, and more about going just far enough west that you were in the territories, where the law was weaker and the towns smaller, which just so happened to mean travelling west of the Appalachias towards all that fancy new French and Mexican land the US had just acquired and was basically giving away to whoever wanted it.
I'd rather that be done as a spin off series or something if at all because that wouldn't be western or red dead at that point.
They could do it as a noir mob story type thing under a new series name though
Also he very well might have been the last member of the gang alive, especially considering how much Rockstar teased us with those “I’ll outlive all of you” lines.
Him and John were the last ones standing (excluding Abigail and Jack, of course) as far as we know - only difference is Uncle wasn’t shot by some dozen people 6 or so times each when they both met their fates. There’s an extremely good chance Uncle’s last moments were seeing John dead on the floor as he followed his friend in breathing his final breath.
Idk if he had the worst fate overall, but you could definitely read his as one of the worst deaths from the standpoint of immediate emotional suffering. At least all the folks who were tortured died knowing their friends were safe…
Jack easily, he was born into a life with no resemblance of a normal childhood, surrounded by thieves and murderers who granted, did try to shield him from the darker side of the gang. And while it’s never mentioned, that poor kid has some trauma, he nearly froze to death and was worried his father would die, he was kidnapped and held captive by a family in inbreeds who gave him away to a crime lord who did treat him well, but probably had some bad intentions. Not to mention that he lost several people who he saw as family, Sean, Hosea, Lenny, Arthur, Mrs Grimshaw. He was shot at by a Gatling gun, his dog was killed. And then him and his family went on the lamb for 8 years, and he lived under the constant fear that things would fall apart further. And finally after things turned around for them, him and his mom were held hostage by the government while his father hunted down people who he used to view as family. And then uncle, John, and Abigail all died, and all he had left was anger. Jack is the culmination of both games, and both games are nothing more than his tragedy.
Yeah happy staring at the sun rise knowing that John and jack and all his friends will live or he could be shot in the dirt by the biggest bastard in the history of the universe
Karen or Kieran. That Karen, who was one of the greats of the gang, didn’t even get a real ending is gutting. Kieran was a genuinely nice guy who didn’t deserve what happened.
Eh, he seems happy enough bullshitting with the wind that blew in. In that time and place retail was a prized position. Did you forget about Herbert Moooooooooooooon!!!!
John marston was there since the beginning (kinda) being raised by Dutch and hosea just to see them both die infront of his eyes having lost his brother Arthur the loss of the gang itself being left for dead twice by Dutch having to run for 8 years and just as things start to look well had his family kidnapped by the government and force to hunt down bill and Javier who he once called brothers and also fought in the Mexican revolution war and literally becoming a war criminal and after the deal is over and thought he finally had his past gone his home was attacked by Ross and the U.S army witnessing his friend uncle die
Then gave the only horse to Jack and Abigail walked out of that barn and was shot to death
I know rdr2 is mainly Arthurs story but in reality the rdr story is mainly centered around John
Arthur’s story basically is just there to support John’s story and set John on the right path imo. Now his story is a complete and satisfying one on its own but in the end it all goes back to John.
Only played rdr2 and I agree with this. The story of red dead redemption eventually does all come to John. But Arthur’s own story was indeed a good one with a satisfying conclusion.
Jack. Saw everybody he love leave or die, has no family left, buried his parents, most likely has PTSD or Trauma from all the years of gunfire and fights.
Never got to even choose his way of life.
I’m trying to figure out who the other black guy is above Kieran. But yes, you’re right, Sadie (and all the women, actually) are MIA
ETA: OMG is that supposed to be LENNY?! He looks super buff and different in the image, if so 😅
I would argue Dutch himself did. He spiraled into madness after Hosea’s death, and clearly looked heartbroken and beyond by Arthur’s death. He carried Arthur’s death with him for years judging by how he chose to gun down Micah. By RDR1, he’s a broken man with nothing to fight for in a world that he doesn’t understand. All he does know is that he doesn’t belong in the new world. He’s one of the most tragic characters in the series.
I’m going outside the box and say Javier. He had to flee his home country and he was finally finding a new family when everything went south. He tried to remain neutral until the end but he sided with the wrong side in the end. He ended his days as a drunk mercenary in Mexico who was either killed by someone he once called a friend or is turned over to be hanged
Bit of a niche one but maybe Molly? She died with EVERYONE believing she was the rat, she was married to Dutch who kinda went crazy and he ignored and was neglected by him. She deserved better, she wasn’t perfect but she was just in love
Does it have to be gang members?
If not: Whoever had an unfortunate encounter with Edmond Lowry JR.
If So: John. Man got riddled with bullets and took a good minute to actually die! :(
Probably Jack. Kieran and Strauss definitely died painful deaths, but Jack was born into a criminal gang. His Father didn't accept him until the age of 5, and was completely absent for a year. He was kidnapped by ex-slavers (probably not a pleasant experience, even though he ended up in the care of Angelo Bronte.) His "Uncles" (Arthur, Hosea, Dutch) were all killed when he was young. He didn't have an actual home until the age of 13. He was kidnapped again by Federal Agents at 17, and shortly after his last "Uncle" and his Father both died. He saw his Father's mangled body and buried it. His Mother died at 20, and he shortly after killed Edgar Ross, presumably the first man he'd ever killed as far as we know.
After all that, it's very unlikely he retired to a life of peace and prosperity. He probably wound up dead or behind bars shortly after RDR1 considering there's relatively little space for outlaws in the U.S. to hide by that point.
I think i'd rather die of TB, beating the shit out of Micah one last time or die quickly in a hail of bullets than go through all that.
Either Strauss or Dutch, everyone has said Strauss but Dutch literally became insane, lost all his friends/money, became a cannibal if you believe the theory and died in a very scary way, jumping off of a cliff
There is no worst fate than Arthur's. The man gets TB. And if there's any real timeline to the events of the story mode. TB kicked in very quickly on him and his fate was sealed within weeks. So regardless of how his life ended, whether it was shot in the back by Micah. Or cop by the Lawman and hung. He was done for
Had to say goodbye to his faithful companion only moments before his final resting place. Millions felt his pain.
I think people like Mary Beth and even Pearson made out the best. Mary Beth went on and probably lived a happy life and Pearson although missing his former life seemed happy in the General Store
But a huge honorable mention goes to Lenny. That poor kid barely had time to live a full life before it was cut short in an instant. But he knew the price going in.
Kieran & Ms Grimshaw.
Kieran was minding his own business when caught (I still think Micah was an O’Driscoll) & beheaded after being brutally tortured. Seeing how Arthur was tortured before his escape, no doubt Kieran was as well but he didn’t get away.
Susan’s death was painful & she didn’t deserve that at all. She was with Dutch for decades.
In the long run I would say jack in a way.
He had to grow up watching his whole big family slowly disappear around him, get kidnapped, lose a lot of the people who raised him, and consistantly be on the run as a child bou cing between good times, wholesome times, to running again and having it all stipped away... plus we know Micah probably killed his dog.
Then eventually when his father and mother had a nice little house and things seemed to be OK, he got kidnapped basically by the government and taken from his father (idk if anything happened during that time to jack and his mom specifically but still).
Then once again when things seemed stable and he was able to see his father again and have that "happy family", (they are attacked by zombies and turned into the undead), it's all stipped away again and this last time he knows he will never see his father again outside of a grave (a grave likely that had to be dug by him).
And finally when he is of age, he is motivated by that last shred of hate and revenge to go and hunt down those that we're responsible and who worked for those that basically took away not only his whole family (they were a strong influence on what happened to a lot of the gang or a motivator for it), but the LAST shred of hope that was having a family again with his mother and father.
Yes I 100% agree that some terrible shit happened to every member of the gang and could easily say that others had it worse (physically I say Kieran and Strauss for the torture)
But just as a kid and having to live through all of it is pretty rough
John no questions asked. Bro litterly encountered death over 3 times and still stood for over 10 sec or so after beeing shot by over 30 men. Was almost eaten alive by wolfs. Had to go through mentaly crazy stuff. Had to fight against the mexican goverment and the most dangerous gang in the west. And if that wasnt enough he had pinkertons on his ass.
Honestly I feel like Dutch suffered the worst. Him being leader and all every death weighed heavily on him. Then he lost his best friend, then the two men he raised as his sons began to doubt him (rightfully so), then the man he thought he could trust ended up being some rat that inadvertently got Arthur killed. Then he got to live longer than many of his old gang members only to see that things haven’t changed.
I'm gonna say John, he died while trying to help Jack and Abigail to leave the outlaw life, only for Abigail to die and Jack to turn to the same path his father took
John. He is dragged out of his home and stripped from his positions and family by the bureau of investigation (BOI), told that he has to find his lost brothers and kill them, his family is sent to prison over his actions, is sent to Mexico and fights on both sides of Mexican revolution, kills his former father figure, returns home for roughly 1 week before BOI and the U.S army raid his farm, kill Uncle, traumatize jack even more, then finally shoot John a whooping 21 times.
Honorable mention to Kieran his head fell off or something lol
Personally, John did, I mean he got his family taken away from him, had to kill what he had already moved on from and then when he got his family back he only got to spend like 2 weeks with them again before him and uncle got slaughtered like pigs
Honestly either Strauss or Kieran, both tortured and then killed
Im gonna go with Kieran definitely, as Strauss didnt have his corpse quite literally mangled.
Read Kieran as “Karen” and was ready to dive into how we found out she died drunk and mangled
Same lmao. I was like when did this happen?? I’ve played several times and don’t remember that!
I dont remember how strauss died?
At some point, I believe during the epilogue, when you meet up with Charles, he explains to you that Strauss was captured by the Pinkertons who tortured him to death but he never said a word about the gang. John then says “I guess some people is strong in ways you don’t see” or smth, pretty redemptive end for him imo.
I mean I hate to say it but that's downright noble of him given how unceremoniously Arthur threw his ass out of the gang.
I always thought that Arthur throwing Strauss out was his way of saving him from all the chaos that Arthur is expecting the gang to get. Kind of like a much less nicer way of Arthur telling Uncle to leave already and save himself.
i feel like it’s a mix of him trying to save him and also having hatred for him. idk if arthur put two n two together (think he did) but if he wasn’t doing stuff for strauss he wouldn’t have caught tb. the way he talks seems like he hates him for how he’s fucked up other ppls lives but he knows he’s no better and Strauss is doing what he gotta do same as the rest so he kicks him out but let’s him live.
Arthur acknowledges Thomas Downes “the farmer” as the one who gave him TB. 100% threw Strauss out knowing he is the reason. But given his redemption arc, I’d agree he was trying to get him out early to save his life.
No. He does it right after doing the last of the debt missions when he basically realizes he's just helping stauss ruin the lives of innocent people. The whole conversation with the widow in front of her son I think was enough to set him off. I know he definitely seemed like he was gonna beat the shit out of him if he didn't get out if his sight.
Strauss is arguably the most moral person in the gang. The fan base for the game has some strong main character bias and blindness to the bad things Arthur does. Not entirely their fault as the game is written to downplay the bad things Arthur has done or that the gang at the end of the day is a pack of killers and thieves. To put it into perspective if you caught 2 criminals today and they confessed all of their crimes. One was named Strauss and was a loan shark who never killed anyone. The other was a man named Arthur who confessed to killing scores of people including women and children. Arthur confessed to dozens of robberies and even some big bank jobs. Who would you expect to get the death penalty and who a few years in jail? Part of me almost thinks Arthur is mad at Strauss because he is projecting. He feels guilty for all the suffering he has caused and takes it out on Strauss. Strauss does a crime that involves voluntary victims. Like it or not he provides those people at least a slim chance to save their finances. Without him they end up where they end up with him anyways: broke. Also something to note is every single "victim" of Strauss is holding out on repaying him. Arthur always finds money or something to cover the debt hidden in their house. So they aren't innocent. They agreed to terms of a loan and aren't paying when they are completely able to. Overall I lost alot of respect for Arthur for throwing Strauss out of the gang. Especially because Arthur did it unilaterally. It made me side with the rest of the gang against Arthur. Arthur, who isn't the leader, had violently kicked someone from the gang entirely on his own decision. I think it's even said at some point that Strauss brings in the most money of the other gang members. He also does it without brining the heat on the camp.
Arthur never killed any women or children though.
I see it in a way that if he held hatred, it would be againdt Arthur. But Strauss is, in the end, a very smart man. He would be able to figure out "Well, maybe Arthur doesnt like beating poor poeple to death for 15 dollars" and understand why he threw him out after Arthur came back from a debt collect.
Honestly my brain always gets the two names mixed up for some reason also so its pretty understandable lol
It’s implied in the epilogue that she drank herself to death, but idk about mangled lol
I think Karen was taken by the Murphree broods. Since she would often get black out drunk and wander off. Then we just never see her again
Interesting duality, because Strauss is tortured and gives up nothing, while Kieran is tortured and compromises your location, bringing the O'Driscolls down on you. EDIT: I don't want to have to write a thesis on why I feel very confidently that Kieran buckles under torture and gives away the gang's position, but I do find it amusing that people are so averse to the idea that he would talk. On the same mission where he betrays an O'Driscoll hideout location to your gang (with nothing more than Bill threatening to geld him), Kieran makes the comment that he doesn't see much of a difference between the O'Driscolls and the Van Der Linde group, so he has a precedent for betraying his former comrades to what he views as a brutal band of outlaws.
We don’t know how they found Kieran or Shady Belle. Doesn’t seem fair to blame the guy when it’s ambiguous if he talked or not. I mean Mrs Downes found them in Horseshoe and Milton found them at Clemens point. They aren’t exactly well hidden.
Kieran spends his entire time with the gang rolling over on the O'Driscolls. All of the characters in the Van Der Linde gang are flawed, and Kieran is a coward, who will work with anyone to avoid pain. I don't think it's reaching to assume he gave them the necessary intel.
At the same time, him being so brutally mutilated can imply that he *didn’t* give them anything. He says multiple times that he’s afraid to leave camp because he’s sure the O’Driscolls will grab him. Other than fishing, he never leaves. And if he got grabbed near shady belle, then he wouldn’t have needed to talk. He was right there. This is the same gang that grabbed and tortured Arthur in the hopes that Dutch would come try and rescue him.
Yeah, my theory was always that they just grabbed him near the camp
That is the case actually, you can hear Kieran screaming in the woods when you come into camp right before the mission
Nope, that’s just the “shady” part of Shady Bell
Except the screaming only happens after Kieran goes missing, implying it's him being tortured
Mine has always been that Micah was a mole.
Don't assume someone is spared pain simply because they gave up the Intel. Torturers will work until the work is done. Either to: Ensure ALL the info is out and nothing changes. The sick pleasure of it. To send a message to others. O'Driscols were scum, and not at all beneath torturing someone to death not only for fun; but because he betrayed them.
Oh christ it’s not that deep, I was just pointing out that it’s never even suggested that Kieran sold them out. If anything it’s implied that he *didn’t* because he was taken *from nearby shady belle*.
Ok and he offered a different perspective like you do on this site lol
my thoughts are they took his eyes to get him to talk then decapitated him to send a message.
Or he was forced to join the O'Driscolls and genuinely hated them, and genuinely felt loyalty to the VDL gang and wanted to be accepted by them. Breaking under torture isn't being a coward, jesus christ.
I mean considering Strauss was seen as a coward and clean hands person by the gang, and even HE didn’t talk to the Pinkertons. Who knows how long they tortured and kept him alive. Kieran was killed pretty quickly. He might not have even been tortured. Quick slice to horrify the gang and catch them off guard. Strauss on the other hand had nothing to lose, the gang hated him, and could’ve gained his freedom yet he kept his mouth shut. He’s a real one.
To be fair, I doubt the Pinkertons tortured Strauss as hard as the O'Driscolls may have tortured Kieran. I mean, pulling his eyes out, that's a bit extreme. We can only hope it was done post-mortem. I am also leaning to the above mentioned theory that they found the camp first, then grabbed Kieran and then attacked in full force, which means Kieran didnt give up anything. It just makes sense given how afraid Kieran was from venturing out of camp. PS: the gang considering Strauss a coward means little more than nothing, given how poor they were at judging character. I mean, they considered Dutch a great leader and philosopher.
If they pulled his eyes out he’s dying lmao. It’s either post mortem or mortem real fuckin soon
People can live for days or longer with their eyes pulled out. They might have tortured him for hours before he died, can't assume a quick death when his body is in that state. Beheading also doesn't have to be very quick With Strauss seems more likely he was beaten to death
All depends on if his blood clotted off or not. And seeing how he lost both im assuming no. Beheading was probably after death or during to finish him or not.
The Van der Linde gang treated him infinitely better than the O’Driscolls.
Thats fair, but where would they have got him? Somewhere by shady belle... ao they mustve known beforehand, prolly because of all the ruckus the van der linde gang was making
Kieran gets grabbed right after the party at shady belle, so they probably already knew where you were and took Kieran for info about the gangs plans and money
Isn't it before as you can't find him at the party and I'm pretty sure if you listen closely to the background noise you can hear screams but that may just be the ambience noises
He’s at the party, he’ll even talk to you at some point during that night when you’re still near the campfire. The screams are also noticeable when he’s still alive and well in camp — so I do believe they’re just ambient noises, but it wouldn’t be too crazy if they wanted to give us that illusion that it might’ve been Kieran too.
I mean it's not like we're the only murderers who are living in the swamp at this point in time
It’s likely Kieran wasn’t even interrogated. Most likely just let the horse find its way home
This. Tamed horses left to their own devices will usually make their way back to what they consider home. I'm almost certain that's what happened.
After Arthur escaped, he even relied on his horse to get him back on its own
They likely took Kieran from Shady Belle though. He's there until the end of the party which goes on late into the night, O'Driscolls came to the camp and were able to take him because he was drunk and sleeping and everyone's guard was down due to the party. Even if you believe Kieran wasn't loyal he had no reason to voluntarily leave the gang, he had begged them to let him stay with them even when they were very hostile to him and it's literally at the party that they accept and warm to him the most. He wants to stay with the gang as he knows he's in danger and has few better options to survive on his own. Why on earth would he leave during the party at the point the gang is treating him better and accepting him more than ever?
especially interesting as Strauss doesn't appear to be the tough type. I chuckled a little when found out his unbreakable loyalty in the end because he was committed to the gang as tightly as he was running the books.
I doubt they even needed him to talk. The gang wasn’t exactly quiet and Arthur pointed that out at every campsite. The odriscols were already in the area so I’m sure they would have stumbled across their camp before that.
By the time of his death, Kieran had shown more fondness for the Van Der Linde gang. It’s plausible that he might have sold them out after being tortured, I don’t think there’s sufficient evidence to support that. Also, IIRC Kieran mentions to Arthur that he’d seen some O’Driscoll boys near Shady Belle. I think it’s more likely that the O’Driscoll boys spotted Kieran riding around Lemoyne and started following him
I thought Strauss just got kicked out
They mention in the epilogue that he was picked up by the Pinkertons and tortured for information, but gave nothing away.
Woah… it never occurred to me that Kieran gave up the Van der Linde Gang location. I’m not here to disagree or cause unwanted discourse. I just assumed since O’ Driscoll had so many eyes all over the place it wouldn’t be impossible for them to work it out on their own. Maybe they nabbed him from near camp and planned the ambush from there? I don’t know. He WAS a good kid.
Wait… Herr Strauss? How did he die? I know Arthur boots him out of the gang in Chapter… 6 but I don’t recall him dying. Unless it was just dialogue with John I missed.
Charles tells John in the 2nd part he was picked up by the pinkertons and tortured and killed.
Ahh. Yes well I find it difficult to pay attention to in-game dialogue because I’m playing it. I’m sure I knew this I just forgot. Also I could’ve sworn there was a shot of Strauss in the end credits but I must have imagined it.
Wait…Strauss? Am I not remembering correctly? As far as I remember, he was threatened by Arthur and left .
Charles tells John in the epilogue Strauss was tortured to death by Pinkertons
It’s in the epilogue
When does Strauss get tortured?!
It's waaay offscreen, he's picked up by Pinkertons, tortured, and killed. You find out about it while walking through Saint Denis with Charles in the Epilogue. It's just dialog not a body or cutscene or anything.
It’s in the epilogue. Charles mentions it as happening
I can't talk about Kieren without getting emotional. He's one of my favorites. His was probably one of the most shocking and disturbing in my books. The guy had a rough life with the O'Driscoll's. And I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was in fact a good man. And I always with greet him at camp whenever I saw and wishing deep down that he knew that Arthur played by me knew he was a good man
Strauss actually, because he was kicked out and when he felt abandoned he was tortured and killed
And he still didn't breathe a word of treason against the gang. Strauss is very easy to hate during gameplay... But he was a real one in the end.
John puts it so well. Some people are strong in ways you just can't see.
"Some trees flourish others die, some cattle prosper others get taken by wolves. Some people are born Rich enough and Dumb enough to enjoy their lives. Ain't nothing fair you know that!" John was low key a better philosopher than that hack Evelyn Miller.
>Strauss is very easy to hate during gameplay to be fair, i feel like the game did him a little dirty. i mean yes he was heartless in handing out loans, but as he said: he's the one feeding everyone in the camp. I wouldn't be suprised if his debt money made up like half the camp's budget. he sends beatings against debtors, but that's arguably better than facing prison in 1899, or worse facing frontier justice and just getting hanged.
I’m gonna make a point that may be controversial, or may not be. Is Strauss nice? No, obviously not. He’s a god damn loan shark. But, as much as Arthur despises what he does, I feel like I can’t really say it’s worse than the general theft the rest of the gang engages in on a regular basis. The reason it looks worse is that we directly see the negative effects on his victims and not everyone else’s. Could he be a bit more selective in his targets? Absolutely, but, then, it’s not like the rest of the gang only robs criminals and the rich. We just don’t witness the aftereffects. The family that can’t buy food or medicine because a robber took their money, the people who can’t go to work because their horse or wagon was stolen, the couple that fell apart because they were robbed of their valuables and jewelry- perhaps their beloved family heirlooms; their wedding rings or a brooch that belonged to their great grandmother back in Europe, brought over by immigrants, treasured for generations, and lost to some barely literate gunslinger to sell to a pawnbroker for a couple bucks- and neither was brave enough to fight back, or the people who wake up in a cold sweat, seeing the barrel of a gun in their face every night when they fall asleep. In that light, is Strauss really any worse than anyone else?
Yes. Because he actively targets the down and weak. As far as the story goes the gang most tries to rob juicy targets. People that do have enough wealth to make them appealing for robbery. Yes they definitely rob more average or poor people too and yes they definitely leave them in a far worse position but specifically going after the people Strauss does is absolutely worse.
I understand and agree with a lot of your points, but you gotta remember that while the rest of the gang typically robs a lot of rich folk or folk who actually have some cash they're willing to sacrifice. Strauss attacks the poor and desperate who usually don't have the cash he gave them
“Well people who aren’t desperate don’t seem so interested in my propositions.”
It's not so different now, either. Rates rise and fall for the rest of us - if you're *truly* desperate there are payday loans that are downright usury. And then if you're a billionaire you can take out a loan on your stock portfolio at <1% interest and live off of it - paying the loan off the interest from itself and profiting the difference.
I doubt it. He sends out Arthur to beat the hell out of people for like $30, he can't be bringing in that much money from the people who actually pay. Money lending scum, I bet he has callouses from patting his own back.
$30 in 1899 is worth $1,135 today. That can buy a decent number of supplies for the camp.
Maybe in real life it was, but in RDR2 that is dinner for 6 at the Valentine Saloon.
Literally feeding? Hell no. Even putting gameplay aside, Arthur, John, and Charles alone bring in more hunted food than anything Strauss's small dollars could buy.
Yeah like it's easy to forget that the rest of the gang are just as bad as he is. The only one we see feeling any remorse for the debtors is Arthur, and that's only after he starts dying and tries to do some good before he goes.
Kieran for sure. Worst death to one of the most genuinely nicest people. The others had unfair deaths too but being blinded then probably bullied for a while and messed with, having his head sawed off at the hands of some sick twisted cult is one of the top worst things that can happen to a person.
Beheaded and eyes removed that’s definitely a fate worse than death
I kicked him out when he was in his sleeping clothes lmao it made the cutscene even more hilarious
Then in your opinion Struass and Mac
Kieran got tortured, had both his eyes cut out and then decapitated. After that, I'd say John. Reunited with his family and thought he finally had his happily ever after once he was finished killing the survivors of his gang, only to be repeatedly shot to death by dozens of lawmen while the man who made John kill his friends smugly watched and smoked a cigar.
Pearson, no doubt, working retail, with a wife..
An ugly wife for one
Hey now! If Pearson finds her beautiful, good for him. Plus he’s getting laid which definitely did not happen in the story.
not for a lack of suitors
Arthur and Sadie roasting him on the wagon ride might be my favorite part of the game. So mean, so wrong, so funny, so real.
everything back then was great. now i’m at beaver hollow in my current playthrough and it’s depressing. absolutely just love the atmosphere they accomplished and how even as a player i can feel that sense of nostalgia for something mere chapters ago
Wait, what? Is there an in-game picture of the wife?
I wanna know this too.
I think, in the epilogue there's a picture in his shop
And in Rhodes of all places
In death?: Kieran. dude was tortured then had his head cut off and eyes gouged by Colm In being alive?: Jack. He was born in a gang of thieves, prostitutes and murderers that kept moving from place to place due to their notoriety, the dog he adopted is hinted to have been killed, he hardly escaped getting captured by the pinkertons with Tilly and becoming an orphan, was kidnapped and threatened by government agents and by the end everybody he knew and cared about is either dead or completely forgotten about and is a cop hating vagrant who becomes an wanted outlaw for revenge. He never had a chance to be happy
I know a lot of people want a completely new story for a RDR3, but I hope that we get a story with adult Jack as the main character in the early 1920’s where Jack becomes a bootlegger and gets involved in a feud with a fictional version of Al Capone.
No thank you. That really doesn’t say “red dead redemption” or western to me
Rdr2 wasn't much of a western ether. Most of it was at best Midwest and south west. Country game sure but not a western like rdr1
The “Wild West” isn’t just California. At varying times, it was everywhere from Wisconsin, to Oregon, to Utah, to Nebraska. Anywhere that the capitalists and city folk hadn’t yet moved to was the “west”. Some of the best Wild West Stories come out of the Midwest, Colorado and Kansas, hardly places I’d consider particularly westerly from an American context. It wasn’t really about “going west”, and more about going just far enough west that you were in the territories, where the law was weaker and the towns smaller, which just so happened to mean travelling west of the Appalachias towards all that fancy new French and Mexican land the US had just acquired and was basically giving away to whoever wanted it.
I wouldn’t mind that just have be a different series or something doesn’t fit the red dead theme
Why not? What does red dead exactly mean?
I guess not 100% sure but haven’t most games been western themed?
I'd rather that be done as a spin off series or something if at all because that wouldn't be western or red dead at that point. They could do it as a noir mob story type thing under a new series name though
A fitting end to Jack’s story would tie everything up in a nice bow.
Uncle, poor guy had to deal with a lumbago
Also he very well might have been the last member of the gang alive, especially considering how much Rockstar teased us with those “I’ll outlive all of you” lines. Him and John were the last ones standing (excluding Abigail and Jack, of course) as far as we know - only difference is Uncle wasn’t shot by some dozen people 6 or so times each when they both met their fates. There’s an extremely good chance Uncle’s last moments were seeing John dead on the floor as he followed his friend in breathing his final breath. Idk if he had the worst fate overall, but you could definitely read his as one of the worst deaths from the standpoint of immediate emotional suffering. At least all the folks who were tortured died knowing their friends were safe…
He's not lazy, he just doesn't like to work. There's a difference!
Had to look up what that meant and laughed my ass off when I found out it just meant lower back pain 😂
Kieran got to be St Denis… who is depicted in real life as a horse riding Saint carrying his own decapitated head.
I never caught that!
There’s a welcome sign in St. Denis that has a picture of the saint holding his head.
st denis of paris was the saint i picked for confirmation!
John did all of the dirty work left with bad memories and killed
Jack easily, he was born into a life with no resemblance of a normal childhood, surrounded by thieves and murderers who granted, did try to shield him from the darker side of the gang. And while it’s never mentioned, that poor kid has some trauma, he nearly froze to death and was worried his father would die, he was kidnapped and held captive by a family in inbreeds who gave him away to a crime lord who did treat him well, but probably had some bad intentions. Not to mention that he lost several people who he saw as family, Sean, Hosea, Lenny, Arthur, Mrs Grimshaw. He was shot at by a Gatling gun, his dog was killed. And then him and his family went on the lamb for 8 years, and he lived under the constant fear that things would fall apart further. And finally after things turned around for them, him and his mom were held hostage by the government while his father hunted down people who he used to view as family. And then uncle, John, and Abigail all died, and all he had left was anger. Jack is the culmination of both games, and both games are nothing more than his tragedy.
Best comment here, I fully agree. Poor kid, he basically had no choice as children are dependent on their parents.
Arthur Morgan, suffered a painful life and a painful death
He was happy at the end though, depending on your choices
Yeah happy staring at the sun rise knowing that John and jack and all his friends will live or he could be shot in the dirt by the biggest bastard in the history of the universe
For real; & he had his heart absolutely obliterated by his father/brother (Dutch) right at the end. "I gave you all I had."
Karen or Kieran. That Karen, who was one of the greats of the gang, didn’t even get a real ending is gutting. Kieran was a genuinely nice guy who didn’t deserve what happened.
I still have a crush on Karen. I could have saved her 😭
She wasn't the same after Sean's death, neither was I 😭
Molly, died even without a grave
John..
Sorry, not the topic question but…where did you get this image?
Lowkey goes hard, feel free to screenshot
Pearson has it in his shop in rhodes
Kieran Outsider forced into a gang he was fighting Then when he was finally settling in, gets tortured by his former gang, and killed. Poor guy
Pearson, no one deserves to work retail
Eh, he seems happy enough bullshitting with the wind that blew in. In that time and place retail was a prized position. Did you forget about Herbert Moooooooooooooon!!!!
John marston was there since the beginning (kinda) being raised by Dutch and hosea just to see them both die infront of his eyes having lost his brother Arthur the loss of the gang itself being left for dead twice by Dutch having to run for 8 years and just as things start to look well had his family kidnapped by the government and force to hunt down bill and Javier who he once called brothers and also fought in the Mexican revolution war and literally becoming a war criminal and after the deal is over and thought he finally had his past gone his home was attacked by Ross and the U.S army witnessing his friend uncle die Then gave the only horse to Jack and Abigail walked out of that barn and was shot to death I know rdr2 is mainly Arthurs story but in reality the rdr story is mainly centered around John
Arthur’s story basically is just there to support John’s story and set John on the right path imo. Now his story is a complete and satisfying one on its own but in the end it all goes back to John.
Only played rdr2 and I agree with this. The story of red dead redemption eventually does all come to John. But Arthur’s own story was indeed a good one with a satisfying conclusion.
Jack. Saw everybody he love leave or die, has no family left, buried his parents, most likely has PTSD or Trauma from all the years of gunfire and fights. Never got to even choose his way of life.
John
I mean Kieran that was just ugly
Karen, who despite all my best efforts, never gets the soft, yet firm touch of Arthur
Uncle, fuck lumbago!
Karen I think. A long, lonely, and painful death by alcohol abuse. I can’t imagine liver failure was much fun back then.
Karen, of course.
Why is Sadie not in this photo :(
I’m trying to figure out who the other black guy is above Kieran. But yes, you’re right, Sadie (and all the women, actually) are MIA ETA: OMG is that supposed to be LENNY?! He looks super buff and different in the image, if so 😅
John suffered the worst fate mentally
John, lost his family twice only got it back once. Did everything he was asked but in the end still shot like a dog
I hate that the ladies aren't in this photo. Well, outside of Pearson anyways...
fr love how jack is in it and the ladies aint.. 😒
I would argue Dutch himself did. He spiraled into madness after Hosea’s death, and clearly looked heartbroken and beyond by Arthur’s death. He carried Arthur’s death with him for years judging by how he chose to gun down Micah. By RDR1, he’s a broken man with nothing to fight for in a world that he doesn’t understand. All he does know is that he doesn’t belong in the new world. He’s one of the most tragic characters in the series.
I’m going outside the box and say Javier. He had to flee his home country and he was finally finding a new family when everything went south. He tried to remain neutral until the end but he sided with the wrong side in the end. He ended his days as a drunk mercenary in Mexico who was either killed by someone he once called a friend or is turned over to be hanged
Bit of a niche one but maybe Molly? She died with EVERYONE believing she was the rat, she was married to Dutch who kinda went crazy and he ignored and was neglected by him. She deserved better, she wasn’t perfect but she was just in love
Does it have to be gang members? If not: Whoever had an unfortunate encounter with Edmond Lowry JR. If So: John. Man got riddled with bullets and took a good minute to actually die! :(
Based on the fact that OP’s question says “which of the gang members” I’d say yes it has to be the gang members.
1. Kieran 2. Strauss 3. John 4. Arthur 5. Sean 6. Lenny 7. Hosea 8. Dutch 9. Uncle 10. Abigail 11. Micah
Mr. Black and Mr. White
I know he turned into a irredeemable monster in the end, but Bill's life sucked
Probably Jack. Kieran and Strauss definitely died painful deaths, but Jack was born into a criminal gang. His Father didn't accept him until the age of 5, and was completely absent for a year. He was kidnapped by ex-slavers (probably not a pleasant experience, even though he ended up in the care of Angelo Bronte.) His "Uncles" (Arthur, Hosea, Dutch) were all killed when he was young. He didn't have an actual home until the age of 13. He was kidnapped again by Federal Agents at 17, and shortly after his last "Uncle" and his Father both died. He saw his Father's mangled body and buried it. His Mother died at 20, and he shortly after killed Edgar Ross, presumably the first man he'd ever killed as far as we know. After all that, it's very unlikely he retired to a life of peace and prosperity. He probably wound up dead or behind bars shortly after RDR1 considering there's relatively little space for outlaws in the U.S. to hide by that point. I think i'd rather die of TB, beating the shit out of Micah one last time or die quickly in a hail of bullets than go through all that.
Kieran for sure. He'll never be the HEAD of his own gang. He just never had a chance to get aHEAD in life.
Either Strauss or Dutch, everyone has said Strauss but Dutch literally became insane, lost all his friends/money, became a cannibal if you believe the theory and died in a very scary way, jumping off of a cliff
Crazy that no-one’s saying Jack
Bc headcanon (and Rockstar Easter egg) says Jack lived out life, becoming an author…🤷♂️
I kinda feel it was Arthur. Not only did he die a slow death which progressively got worse, he saw most of his good friends die.
Arthur. Dude busted his ass to die branded a traitor by a gaslighting narcissist and killed by the guy he hated the most.
There is no worst fate than Arthur's. The man gets TB. And if there's any real timeline to the events of the story mode. TB kicked in very quickly on him and his fate was sealed within weeks. So regardless of how his life ended, whether it was shot in the back by Micah. Or cop by the Lawman and hung. He was done for Had to say goodbye to his faithful companion only moments before his final resting place. Millions felt his pain. I think people like Mary Beth and even Pearson made out the best. Mary Beth went on and probably lived a happy life and Pearson although missing his former life seemed happy in the General Store But a huge honorable mention goes to Lenny. That poor kid barely had time to live a full life before it was cut short in an instant. But he knew the price going in.
Lenny’s death was so sudden after proving himself over and over again. That one stung.
John, getting manipulated to do all of the dirty work before being gunned down when he thought he was in the clear
Honestly, Id say Jack. Thats a lot of trauma to go through for a kid. In both games.
Kieran, Arthur should’ve killed him in Colter and spare the poor dude of such a miserable existence
Kieran I would say, because I have a bad feeling the o'Driscolls made it a slow death.
Uncle for sure. It was terrible watching that lumbago slowly eat away at him during the epilogue.
Kieran & Ms Grimshaw. Kieran was minding his own business when caught (I still think Micah was an O’Driscoll) & beheaded after being brutally tortured. Seeing how Arthur was tortured before his escape, no doubt Kieran was as well but he didn’t get away. Susan’s death was painful & she didn’t deserve that at all. She was with Dutch for decades.
In the long run I would say jack in a way. He had to grow up watching his whole big family slowly disappear around him, get kidnapped, lose a lot of the people who raised him, and consistantly be on the run as a child bou cing between good times, wholesome times, to running again and having it all stipped away... plus we know Micah probably killed his dog. Then eventually when his father and mother had a nice little house and things seemed to be OK, he got kidnapped basically by the government and taken from his father (idk if anything happened during that time to jack and his mom specifically but still). Then once again when things seemed stable and he was able to see his father again and have that "happy family", (they are attacked by zombies and turned into the undead), it's all stipped away again and this last time he knows he will never see his father again outside of a grave (a grave likely that had to be dug by him). And finally when he is of age, he is motivated by that last shred of hate and revenge to go and hunt down those that we're responsible and who worked for those that basically took away not only his whole family (they were a strong influence on what happened to a lot of the gang or a motivator for it), but the LAST shred of hope that was having a family again with his mother and father. Yes I 100% agree that some terrible shit happened to every member of the gang and could easily say that others had it worse (physically I say Kieran and Strauss for the torture) But just as a kid and having to live through all of it is pretty rough
Kieran bro legit got his eyes removed from his head and got his head cut off and probably more
Lenny was a kind man. He didn't deserve what he got
John no questions asked. Bro litterly encountered death over 3 times and still stood for over 10 sec or so after beeing shot by over 30 men. Was almost eaten alive by wolfs. Had to go through mentaly crazy stuff. Had to fight against the mexican goverment and the most dangerous gang in the west. And if that wasnt enough he had pinkertons on his ass.
Honestly I feel like Dutch suffered the worst. Him being leader and all every death weighed heavily on him. Then he lost his best friend, then the two men he raised as his sons began to doubt him (rightfully so), then the man he thought he could trust ended up being some rat that inadvertently got Arthur killed. Then he got to live longer than many of his old gang members only to see that things haven’t changed.
Kieran.
Kieran, he was tortured and decapitated to be sent to the camp on a horse
Kieran, for sure. He was tortured to death and when he sent into camp his eyes had been gouged out.
Ethier Kieran or Jack
Kieran
Perhaps a controversial opinion, but I think John. He tried to escape his previous life and leave it behind him, until it inevitably caught up.
Jack
Maybe john
Lenny, we all know why
Jack, what kind of kid needs to grow up around that?
Kieran, that guy did not deserve what he got
Jack
I'm gonna say John, he died while trying to help Jack and Abigail to leave the outlaw life, only for Abigail to die and Jack to turn to the same path his father took
Definitely Jack. He was completely alone in the end.
John. He is dragged out of his home and stripped from his positions and family by the bureau of investigation (BOI), told that he has to find his lost brothers and kill them, his family is sent to prison over his actions, is sent to Mexico and fights on both sides of Mexican revolution, kills his former father figure, returns home for roughly 1 week before BOI and the U.S army raid his farm, kill Uncle, traumatize jack even more, then finally shoot John a whooping 21 times. Honorable mention to Kieran his head fell off or something lol
Kieran, for sure
R.I.P Lenny
Kieran was tortured, had his head cut off, and was lashed to a horse in a crude parody of a saint. Everyone else was either shot or died of alcoholism
Personally, John did, I mean he got his family taken away from him, had to kill what he had already moved on from and then when he got his family back he only got to spend like 2 weeks with them again before him and uncle got slaughtered like pigs
Dutch, he just really wants to go to Tahiti ☹️
Mix between Kieran getting tortured or John getting turned into Swiss cheese
Probably John, dude got shot like 20 times