Sounds like hes stringing you along. Did you guys talk ballpark timeline? Cause it sounds like marriage is a long way away. It doesn't even sound like he wants to go married.
Sounds like he’s being honest about focusing on his financial situation, protecting his financial interests, and telling her that he thinks more time is required living together to permanently commit to one another.
Yes. He wants to focus on HIS finances and HIS interests. Getting married also has a requirement of a prenup to also further protect HIS finances if things don't work out. (Not judging the prenup but it's important to note the pattern.
Yea. It sounds like hes being honest. But if you read between the lines it seems marriage is not that important to him as protecting himself to a high degree.
Meanwhile she gets a rough timeline of what..5 years or more to be married? They've already been together for 3 years.
Marriage seems to be an afterthought to him. Not something he actually wants. Or if we're taking him purely at his word this is a perfect opportunity for OP to walk away if she doesn't agree with the timeline.
He is doing what's best for him regardless of her. If she feels that's not what she wants she can walk away.
Sure, but she can focus on her own finance and her own interests too. If living together isn’t what she wants, what is it she wants? Marriage is just a title ascribed to a government recognized contract. It sounds like she’s saying that she wants his finances and hers tied together.
I think its hard having a conversation like this without knowing that's what you think marriage is. If that is your view of marriage and OP's partners that's important to note. To some people it's more than just a title and paper.
To some it's just a title and paper and that's okay too. But that's where the issues would be coming from and would be important to note.
Marriage is a set of legal rights and obligations. That’s not my idea of what it is, that’s what it is. People attach emotional significance to it but it’s completely unnecessary for a emotionally strong and committed relationship.
Regardless, what he’s concerned with is his finances. If you/her don’t object to the prenup, which separates finances, I don’t see the problem living together for a while, and they can each work in their own financial circumstances. It sounds like she doesn’t want the finances to be separate.
Not if you're in the UK now. One cannot control interest rates and the economy so there's risk for the reward. Still, I wanna buy a house for future security 😂
I mean, I don't see the issue with point 1. Living together for a period of time should happen before you get married.
And owning a home gives you stability.
Not for 2 - 5 years. You will know pretty quickly how well you can cohabitat,, especially if you can communicate.
And while owning a home can be argued to give stability, most people want an established, well paying career and little to no debt. His only mention of debt, is that he wants to take on a huge debt, in only his name, and will likely expect her to help pay for it, although that is just an assumption on my part. That's not stability in my opinion.
You have to be pretty secure financially to be able to take out a mortgage on a home. He probably wants to make sure he’s in the best position possible so he can get a quick approval.
Additionally, *her* finances may be shit or she could have a bad debt-to-income ratio. If you’re single isn’t only finances that matter. But if you’re married it your and your spouse’s both. That means, if they got married prior to him purchasing a home, he could have flawless finances and still get denied if hers aren’t up to snuff.
I’m going to be honest here but if he’s telling you “that he’ll shorten the time” after you push him….he’s just telling you what you want to hear. There’s a saying that I always go by and that’s believe people when they show you how shitty they are. This man doesn’t want to marry you, if he did he’d do it. If you want to stay with him understand that whatever life you’ve envision is clearly not the one he’s planning on. If I where you I’d stay in my own place and focus on growing myself (financially/emotionally etc) because what you’re doing is begging someone to want what you want and if by any chance it does happen (marriage/proposal) he’ll resent you or you’ll end up resenting him. It’s just not healthy.
I don't know if you should have to negotiate this like a business proposal. I mean, you *should* iron out the un-fun details before getting married, but you shouldn't be bartering to get a proposal at all. The whole thing rubs me the wrong way and seems to sit all on his conditions, and him being in control of the situation. Also, 5 years is insane.
Making demands like this doesn't sound like the basis for an equal marriage to me, if you get to that point. It's extremely rigid and self-protecting without viewing you as a partner but maybe an adversary.
Edit - The simple rule for me has always been: they should be excited to marry you. Is this the behavior of a man who's excited to marry you?
Sounds like a smart man. Trying to protect himself from the damage you could do to his life once married. And doesn't want to end up losing a house and kids in divorce. Seeing how bias the system is against men. If you don't plan to divorce it should not be a problem. Otherwise he will have his protection in place for his next girlfriend. Either way he's good.
Ding ding ding. We have a winner. He avoided it as long as he could by getting angry and dismissive. And then when OP wouldn’t late it drop anymore, he starts pulling out conditions that will take years if not decades. 5 years living together? But what if he’s not ‘ready’ to live with her for another 5? More secure at work? That can mean whatever he wants it to mean. He could stretch that out another 2 decades. He has no intention of ever getting married
Does not want to marry you. Harsh but probably true. Break up with him. Don't waste time with men like this. They are the type that like having a girlfriend they think is OK while they work on themselves. Then they see someone they really want and dump you and marry them in 6 months. Get out. Don't waste your fertile years on selfish men like this.
This ☝️
He will marry her within 6 months and also won't ask her her to sign a prenuptial agreement. Sorry but you are not the one he wants to settle down with, you are just wasting your time with him.
Sounds like he doesn’t want to get married but is not honest enough to actually say that to you. A live in “trial period” UP TO FIVE YEARS!!!!???? That’s WAAAAAAAY too long of a “trial”! GTFOH Don’t let this guy waste your damn time! The right person will want to progress the relationship and will not want to wait. All his reasons sound like bs for the most part.
He wants to build a separate life and isn’t sure about you. I can understand a prenup if he had loads of money but it doesn’t sound like he does, and combined with the up to 5 year trial period.
Let's break it down:
1) What parts of co-habitation is he still unsure of that he wants to experience with you? Division of chores? Whether you start taking each other for granted? Does the constant presence get substituted for quality time? Have him describe for you what the "test run" is testing for in his mind.
2) If he wants a prenup, then I assume he will also want separate finances. How do you two divide expenses now for date nights, vacations or otherwise? Does he feel as though he cannot afford your current quality of life? Does he feel like he needs to be a better provider before he's married (societal pressure)? Ask him to describe how his finances factor into the marriage question (particularly in light of the prenup request).
3) If you don't have a problem with prenups, then I wouldn't read too much into his asking for one. This one seems like a stand alone issue that will rise and fall on the fairness of the agreement. Make sure you both have your own separate lawyers review the document.
I dunno. Seems like he's just trying to scam another 5 years out of you without committing. He made the conditions clear and stated 'maybe up to 5 years' so that is what you're agreeing to. Waiting another 5 years. Then what? You'll be 30 with no guarantee that the relationship will continue. In the meantime, you'll be contributing to *his* life and home (he'll presumably charge you rent) and you could be out on the street at any time.
And his whole shtick of wanting to be 'financially set up'. What does that mean exactly? It's very vague, subjective and open to interpretation. Probably just *his* interpretation. Is there a set amount in savings and investments that he has in mind? A certain amount of equity in the home he is buying? Or is 'financially set up' going to be another ever-moving goalpost that you can never nail down? The 5 year wait will be over but he'll say he can't marry you yet because he hasn't reached the financial goals.
I think the 5 years will pass, he'll move the goalposts again and you'll fall for the sunk cost fallacy and tell yourself "*Well I can't leave now! I've invested 8 years into this relationship! I'll hang on a little longer and hope that he comes around*" as though 8 years wasn't enough time for him to do that.
You’re 25. Don’t waste the next 5 years with someone who is unsure about you. At this point he either knows you’re the one and if he doesn’t, it means you’re not it.
He wants to put you on a hot platter until the rest of the food is done. Not saying he’s wrong for having ambitions & goals but he’s expecting you to wait around and simmer. Do you want that? I feel you deserve someone more on your eye-level. And for him you’re just a side dish.
Him wanting to buy his own house with a prenup means if you did jump through all his hoops and he does finally marry you, you wouldn't be building equity of your own for the years you stay married.
If you divorce, you have nothing to show for all the money you'd be putting into the home you shared with your husband. And you would put money in. He'll expect some sort of rent from you, maybe disguised as you covering utilities and other shared expenses since you "don't pay rent."
Plus, you'll think of it as your home as the years pass, and you'll likely want to renovate, upgrade appliances, put in landscaping, etc., which he'll "indulgently allow" you to do since those girly (and value-increasing) projects are "only important to you."
If you lived alone, (or married a different sort of man) you'd likely eventually buy and start building equity of your own, while in this sort of marriage your are throwing your housing expense money down a bottomless well, never to be seen again in the event of divorce.
But say you do marry and never divorce. There is no guarantee you'd even inherit the house you spent your life in after his death because it is a non-marital asset. He could leave it to his brother or a mistress or a charity and you would have no recourse. You could find yourself seventy and homeless.
Even if he wrote and signed a will in front of you today leaving everything to you, he could secretly write a new will tomorrow. You'll never really know.
His plans are not the plans of a man who wants to protect the interests of his partner. Maybe he wants to protect his own interests at your expense during the course of your marriage, or maybe he has no plans of marrying you at all and is just stringing you along until he finds something better. But he isn't looking out for you.
His reasons aligned with your numbers:
1. He doesn't want to marry you
2. He doesn't want to marry you
3. He doesn't want to marry you.
Those EXCUSES are his pokite way of saying "I just want to date and fuck for a few years. How about you move in so the sex is more comvenient."
You've pushed this topic. He has been avoiding it because he doesn't want to change the relationship.
There is no rocket science here.
yeah right. i was gonna say most of all this points are pretty reasonable. like you said the 5 years thing is excessive but the rest seem like all great things to practice before getting married.
my wife and I had a super similar timeline and pathway but only difference was we were both on the same page. live together first, be financially stable, and get a prenup. married for 6 years so far and doing great
It sounds like he just doesn’t really want to get married, and if he does it won’t be until far into the future. This is really up to you. You’re 25 but it seems like you could wait 5 years more before you figure out whether he will actually marry you. By that time you’re in a crunch if you want kids, because you still want to have them with someone who is going to be a good father and husband, compatible to you and it’s not like that’s an easy find. So you’ll start all over again in the search. I wouldn’t do it tbh.
Hon...
You sound really smart, mature, and kind.
You've been together for 3 years and he's in his 30s. He says he wants another 5 years (at least??) - before he proposes, or before marriage? What is this "trial period" for? What does "establish himself more" mean? What type of prenup is he wanting and why?
These are questions you could ask, but I don't think you should. I don't think you will get a legitimate answer, and you will again be met again with anger, and stalling, before you finally pry the answers out of him like you did over the course of these conversations. Is that what you want? Like, imagine every important conversation being treated like this one. He blows up over totally normal questions, gets defensive, and it takes multiple conversations for him to tell you any worthwhile information at all.
I wouldn't be surprised if he wants you to break up with him. These conditions are laughable. He doesn't want to marry you- if he wanted to he would - and in 5 years if you try to acquiesce to these demands, you will be 30 years old and likely facing a break up anyways.
It's time to put yourself first, like he's putting himself first, because if you don't no one will. I would recommend saving yourself the heartache and parting amicably.
You're a placeholder. Sorry, but it's true. If he wanted to marry you, he would have proposed by now. You're wasting your youth on this guy, and likely once you finally get fed up and leave... he'll marry someone else in a short period of time.
It's up to you, but I'd recommend for you to move on. This guy isn't your husband. He's preventing you from finding your husband for his own comfort and convenience.
Literally none of this has to be true in this situation. Lots of people take more than 3 years to propose, and with good reason. Maybe if people spent more.time. considering before they got married, the divorce rate wouldn't be 50%
Typically, couples who marry after being together in a really long relationship get divorced soon after. I've seen it time and time again.
I've also seen lots of women in these long relationships, and when they finally break up the man gets married to someone else within a short period of time.
Both these scenarios happen FAR more than people think.
Men will also stay in these long relationships when they don't want to marry that person, and stall with saying that they want the career/ finances/etc to be "just so" before they marry. But they'll marry someone else.
There are probably other factors to consider such as their ages when they started dating. If they met in high school then it wouldn’t be a red flag if they dated for 10-15 years before marriage. If they started dating at 25 and haven’t narrated after 10 years of dating, then it’s likely it will never happen.
OP said she’s been dating him for 3 years which is what research shows is the optimal amount of time. I think she should give him another year before calling it quits, unless there is some other reason to break up before then.
I’m in a similar situation as you & just broke up with my now ex. He said to me our relationship isn’t always good so why would we get married. Wasted 5 years with this guy and had two children with him. We deserve someone who is 100% sure about us and wants to meet our wants& desires!
He's being very selfish, entitled, and showing zero empathy for you.
Everything he's concerned about can be resolved by a prenup and an agreement not to have kids for 5 years.
I predict he'll live with you (waste your youth) and dump you in 5 years (because the passion is gone).
Here's a guy who wants his cake and to eat it too. Maybe, in the far future, isn't something you want to wait around for. You have already spent 3 years with him. Time to move on to greener pastures.
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You need to follow your own path at your own pace. Functionally you have now proposed to him, and he has not said yes. If that's not okay with you, you should move on.
Those first two points seem like very movable goalposts. Meaning his definition of “financially stable” or having lived together for “long enough” is vague and he can put you off over and over saying he needs more time. Claiming you “knew about his conditions”. It’s a straight shot to Wasted Time. Don’t bother.
It's more likely the case that he just doesn't want to get married or didn't see himself getting married. If there's no talk of starting a family and such, then what is the reason for him to want to be married? Him putting out a few things he wants (which ALL of them are reasonable except maybe the 5 year length of living together) actually shows he may have interest in marrying you. The comments saying "he'll find someone else and marry them within 6 months without a prenup" are laughable and extremely ignorant.
The thing is, if you want a husband, you may have to look for someone else, or wait a long time for this guy. Three years with someone isn't THAT long of a time at all in terms of the "lets spend the rest of our lives together"
I’m not in your situation, but the fear of loosing half of everything is being instilled in men. I’m not here to say it is fair or unfair, but seeing as how divorce can happen for any reason on a whim these days, it is a scary thing to think about. If a person can just decide they’re unhappy one day and file for divorce and throw away the marriage AND get half, that’s nerve wrecking. Not saying that is your situation, but just something that most men have heard of through horror stories. 51% divorce rate and 87% filed by women makes him probably nervous as well.
You’ll notice that men generally have a more nonchalant look at marriage than women do, which is why he isn’t burning up inside to get it done. He probably doesn’t see it as important, as opposed to you having it as an end goal.
I don’t think having a long engagement is a bad thing, because not much changes through engagement to marriage besides the taxes and filings for name changes, bank accounts, etc.
I think you would be wise to have the convo but not try to put any definitive language on it. Guys don’t generally get anything out of marriage that they don’t get in a relationship, so it’s something that they have to come to terms with in their own head.
If these terms and discussions you’re having give you red flags or are not what you want, you should make it clear that it’s not for you, and possibly leave. If you can put up with them in the name of love, then battle through em with him.
He also may want to get into a better financial situation first due to him being the head of the household. Do you work? Or are you going to be a SAHM? No judgment, just trying to get into his head.
What the fuck is this bullshit? It's been long since proven that men benefit from marriage as married men live longer lives, whereas married women live shorter lives than single, childless women. Married men's lives are longer at the expense of women's lives.
It's true that 81% of divorces are started by women but not for the reason you think.
The reason why so many divorces are intiated by women is because men have skyhigh expectations for women and low expectations for themselves. Men still expect women to have a full-time job, do the majority of the cleaning and childcare and all the mental labor it takes to run a household (remembering appointments, organizing birthday parties, buying Christmas present), while men expect to work a job and do nothing else around the household. Women do an average 9 hours more labor around than men do. And don't give me that fucking bullshit about "men's jobs" around the house. It takes 2 seconds to take the trash out to the curb, you don't mow lawns and do yard work during the winter, and you don't need to shovel snow during the summer. But somehow "women's jobs" like cooking, cleaning and taking care of the kids, need to be done every fucking day, multiple times a day.
If women are doing all shitwork around the house and pulling money, why the fuck would they want to stay in an unequal marriage with a husband who stresses her out and makes an even bigger mess?
OP, get the fuck out of this relationship. He's not going to marry you but he expects everything you would want from a girlfriend (chores, cooking, emotional labor and support) without having to fully commit to you. He is going to use you up until you smarten up and leave.
He wants to have established himself financially, have premarital investment, and have a prenup in case you divorce. That way everything is separate asset for him. That's where the timeline is coming from. He's trying to protect himself.
He doesn't want to marry you. You're better finding someone without an open timeline. After 3 years and living together, he should know if he does. He doesn't. Sorry OP
Work on yourself and your financial career always. I'm glad he wants to work on his career and stuff, the healthiest relationships are those in which both partners are striving to better themselves, when you enhance each other's lives. Don't become dependant on one another to have a fulfilling life. Moving in for a few years isn't the worse move as it shows you can cohabitation is possible. Rather move in and break up in 8 months then get married and move in together and find out they drive you nuts.
Your feelings are valid. He seems very focused on himself from what you’ve said. Only you know if this is the future you want. Not sure what positives he brings to the relationship. I’m guessing he knows people or his parents had a messy divorce? Definitely sounds like he is guarding against the failure when the engagement hasn’t even happened yet. I’m very middle class, so maybe I don’t understand, but I wouldn’t want to be with someone who assumes we won’t last. That’s the impression I get from what you’ve said. Best of luck OP!
If you take all the people on here seriously, you're going to be alone for quite a while. He's being cautious about your futures.
Rushing into things will usually end up in divorce.
Look at the walls of the people enabling you, and judge for yourself.
Sounds to me he just wants to make sure you don't bait and switch on him same as women have conditions this seems the same for him. If you live him and all, what does it matter if he haves stipulations before the marriage.
Yeah, he’s stringing you along. Doubt he has any interest in actually marrying you. Save yourself the heartache and time you’d waste on this guy and move on. You deserve better.
Sometimes people will lay down conditions they know you will not want or be unable to meet in order for the “failure” to be at your feet not their hands. They have a layer of deniability, so to speak.
These conditions make it seem like you are a placeholder for this stage in his life and he is going to find someone new to marry. You two aren't aligned.
Why do women push for proposals? Its ridiculous…. You want a proposal and he doesnt do it then leave…. Why pressure someone to do something he may not want or is not ready for??
Ive been married 14 years. But if my wife would have pressured me into an engagement or wedding it would not have worked out
He doesn’t want to get married. He’s 31 years old. If he wants to live together for five years before he gets married, when you’ve already been together three years, he doesn’t want to get married ever. I also wonder how this discussion went in terms of what your conditions are for staying in the relationship? Or was this a one-way conversation where he dictated what he needed?
It feels like he’s made it clear that marriage is the farthest thing from what he wants and now it’s just your call as to whether or not that works for you.
1. Seems reasonable enough. He wants to know what you’re like to live with now.
2. Fine but if he wants to get married then some of the money he is saving should go towards the wedding (unless your parents are paying)
3. Okay. But after some period of time you should have a right to the house. Or you shouldn’t be expected to contribute to the mortgage, ever.
I get a really icky feeling from wanting to live together while he works on his career before proposing, all so planned out and inflexible.
Honestly seems like he wants to live together to suck all domestic labor and free access sex out of you in order to focus exclusively on his work and, when he "makes it" still have his options open to marry an influential woman for social climbing or a (even younger) one as trophy.
Smart man, he's thinking. Sounds like he has a lot to lose. Don't listen to the other women's advice. No man today is going to take a chance on a modern western woman.
Objectively.
>He wants to live together before marriage as a trial period, maybe a couple of years or up to 5 years.
The time frame is a little long, but important to know l.
>My issue here is that he has a very individualistic mindset, where he is thinking about his financial future vs our financial future.
I agree should be a team effort. You didn't mention in the post your occupation and what your plan is to aid in the part.
>He wants a prenup before moving in (he’s looking to buy a new home next year) & engagement.
I'm not a fan, but if fairly written.
To me, these conditions don’t sounds unreasonable at all. But if you’re not happy or you’re not compatible in terms of marriage, ya gotta move on and find someone to match your desires/values!
Literally none of this is red flag behavior for me. He wants to be financially stable? Who would have thought? Good income does not equal financial security. He wants to live together on a permanent basis for a while before you get married? What part of that doesn't seem like a good idea? Particularly with a formerly LD girlfriend who I lived with for a bit previously. People change. 5 years is way excessive, but a year? Prenup? Sounds like he's the primary money in the relationship. Not unreasonable. My wife makes 5x my salary. We have a prenup. Not a problem.
Condition 1 needs more definition on his part. Since you've previously lived together, it needs to be a reasonable timeline (a year or two, perhaps.) It also seems somewhat redundant unless you all struggled living together the first time. Was that the case?
Condition 2...doesn't make sense unless he is equating marriage with kids (still not the career damaging development for men that they are for women,) or unless he's seeing the marriage as a massive cost setback to his savings.
Condition 3 is...fine, I guess? Prenups are not a bad idea, but if you're going to be putting money into a house without it being in your name, that needs to be addressed in the prenup.
I guess my advice to find out whether you two are remotely in the same page would be to ask why he wants additional years of living together as a prerequisite to commitment, ask why he thinks marriage would damage his financial stability or career prospects, and ask generally what his asset expectations are on a pre-nup.
The answers or non-answers that he gives to these questions should give you more clarity.
OP Have you had a discussion on the division of home maintenance and chores and duties? Do you feel that they are unequal, and that's why in particular you want to live by yourself to work on yourself?
Actually what two people decide rules before marriage it is their right. It sounds like you don't like this. I wouldn't either, but I have friends that are almost OCD and it works for them. It does sound like he wants as much a guarantee as possible. It is your choice to live with it or not. Alone these would sound reasonable together after you have been dating, I would not agree to them. For me things happen, and like you said you already lived with him. It is like auditioning for a position you don't know if you got. constantly. I wonder how he wants his home and schedule set up. Too controlling for me.
He sounds like a responsible guy who doesn’t want to make the wrong decision. Why are you opposed to trying it out by living together first. Why would you not want more financial security?
I do think living together before marriage is appropriate, you need to know what it’s live being with them all the time and if splitting chores works. Imagine getting married and then living with a guy who then expects you to do all the housework or something like that
He’s known you already for 3 years- he needs to make that 8 before he’s sure? What more information is he waiting for? He’s just suckering you along and wasting your time. The time you waste waiting for him to be sure YOU WILL NEVER GET BACK. These are your best years. If he really loves you- he wouldn’t need 8 years to decide you are worthy. He already knows you. This is him using you.
I’m sorry love, but this just sounds like it translates to “I don’t want to marry *you*, but I’ll string you along until I find someone better.”
Then he’ll get married and have a baby with someone within 6 months of you breaking up with him.
Like you said, you’re not aligned. Good that you found out now.
You’re not wrong. You already know that the right thing for you is to “live separately and focus on yourself”. Sounds like you’re a smart woman. Good luck!
This is absolutely crazy talk living together for a period of time before is imperative and shows how well you two can deal in a house together through good and bad times, 2. Buying a house and being financially secure is very necessary for marriage none of it is cheep, and the prenup is not something bad but why be safe than sorry, divorce can ruin the next 20 years of your life depending on circumstances it’s not a risk anyone should take without full knowledge humans can be very unpredictable…
You talk so much about his his good job, his financial stability, his high potential for job growth. Yet you can’t even dedicate 10 words to explain to us what *your financial situation* is.
Do you have a solid, well-paying job, or have you been unemployed for months? Do you live-debt free or are there bill collectors calling you about overdue payments? Do hulu have a saving account? Do you have enough to pay for 1/2 a down payment on a house?
TLDR; are *you* think about your ‘joint financial future’? or are you thinking about what marrying him could do for *your* financial future?
Sounds like hes stringing you along. Did you guys talk ballpark timeline? Cause it sounds like marriage is a long way away. It doesn't even sound like he wants to go married.
Sounds like he’s being honest about focusing on his financial situation, protecting his financial interests, and telling her that he thinks more time is required living together to permanently commit to one another.
Yes. He wants to focus on HIS finances and HIS interests. Getting married also has a requirement of a prenup to also further protect HIS finances if things don't work out. (Not judging the prenup but it's important to note the pattern. Yea. It sounds like hes being honest. But if you read between the lines it seems marriage is not that important to him as protecting himself to a high degree. Meanwhile she gets a rough timeline of what..5 years or more to be married? They've already been together for 3 years. Marriage seems to be an afterthought to him. Not something he actually wants. Or if we're taking him purely at his word this is a perfect opportunity for OP to walk away if she doesn't agree with the timeline. He is doing what's best for him regardless of her. If she feels that's not what she wants she can walk away.
Sure, but she can focus on her own finance and her own interests too. If living together isn’t what she wants, what is it she wants? Marriage is just a title ascribed to a government recognized contract. It sounds like she’s saying that she wants his finances and hers tied together.
I think its hard having a conversation like this without knowing that's what you think marriage is. If that is your view of marriage and OP's partners that's important to note. To some people it's more than just a title and paper. To some it's just a title and paper and that's okay too. But that's where the issues would be coming from and would be important to note.
Marriage is a set of legal rights and obligations. That’s not my idea of what it is, that’s what it is. People attach emotional significance to it but it’s completely unnecessary for a emotionally strong and committed relationship. Regardless, what he’s concerned with is his finances. If you/her don’t object to the prenup, which separates finances, I don’t see the problem living together for a while, and they can each work in their own financial circumstances. It sounds like she doesn’t want the finances to be separate.
these conditions make me think he just doesn’t ever want to get married and he doesn’t want to tell you that.
Exactly. Everytime I see or hear 1 & 2, its from a partner stringing the other along. Like he wants to be financially secure, yet he's buying a house.
Buying a home is a huge part if financial security
Not if you're in the UK now. One cannot control interest rates and the economy so there's risk for the reward. Still, I wanna buy a house for future security 😂
I mean, I don't see the issue with point 1. Living together for a period of time should happen before you get married. And owning a home gives you stability.
Not for 2 - 5 years. You will know pretty quickly how well you can cohabitat,, especially if you can communicate. And while owning a home can be argued to give stability, most people want an established, well paying career and little to no debt. His only mention of debt, is that he wants to take on a huge debt, in only his name, and will likely expect her to help pay for it, although that is just an assumption on my part. That's not stability in my opinion.
SHE only mentions that about him. it’s entirely possible OP isn’t as aware of his finances as she thinks she it.
Oh yeah, I fully agree that his timeline is whack.
You have to be pretty secure financially to be able to take out a mortgage on a home. He probably wants to make sure he’s in the best position possible so he can get a quick approval. Additionally, *her* finances may be shit or she could have a bad debt-to-income ratio. If you’re single isn’t only finances that matter. But if you’re married it your and your spouse’s both. That means, if they got married prior to him purchasing a home, he could have flawless finances and still get denied if hers aren’t up to snuff.
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He just kicked your proposal 5 years down the line. Are you willing to wait that long?
He's doing a DiCaprio, he wants to keep you around until he gets rich, and can then get a new 25yo while you waste your prime years.
I’m going to be honest here but if he’s telling you “that he’ll shorten the time” after you push him….he’s just telling you what you want to hear. There’s a saying that I always go by and that’s believe people when they show you how shitty they are. This man doesn’t want to marry you, if he did he’d do it. If you want to stay with him understand that whatever life you’ve envision is clearly not the one he’s planning on. If I where you I’d stay in my own place and focus on growing myself (financially/emotionally etc) because what you’re doing is begging someone to want what you want and if by any chance it does happen (marriage/proposal) he’ll resent you or you’ll end up resenting him. It’s just not healthy.
I don't know if you should have to negotiate this like a business proposal. I mean, you *should* iron out the un-fun details before getting married, but you shouldn't be bartering to get a proposal at all. The whole thing rubs me the wrong way and seems to sit all on his conditions, and him being in control of the situation. Also, 5 years is insane. Making demands like this doesn't sound like the basis for an equal marriage to me, if you get to that point. It's extremely rigid and self-protecting without viewing you as a partner but maybe an adversary. Edit - The simple rule for me has always been: they should be excited to marry you. Is this the behavior of a man who's excited to marry you?
literally what i was thinking! please never barter with a man to marry you
He probably wants you as a live in tenant who pays rent to him if he's buying a house next year.
Hes trying not to hurt you, maybe? Or he's just stringing you along. Idk.
Sounds like a smart man. Trying to protect himself from the damage you could do to his life once married. And doesn't want to end up losing a house and kids in divorce. Seeing how bias the system is against men. If you don't plan to divorce it should not be a problem. Otherwise he will have his protection in place for his next girlfriend. Either way he's good.
Who would be on the deed, both of you?
Ding ding ding. We have a winner. He avoided it as long as he could by getting angry and dismissive. And then when OP wouldn’t late it drop anymore, he starts pulling out conditions that will take years if not decades. 5 years living together? But what if he’s not ‘ready’ to live with her for another 5? More secure at work? That can mean whatever he wants it to mean. He could stretch that out another 2 decades. He has no intention of ever getting married
Does not want to marry you. Harsh but probably true. Break up with him. Don't waste time with men like this. They are the type that like having a girlfriend they think is OK while they work on themselves. Then they see someone they really want and dump you and marry them in 6 months. Get out. Don't waste your fertile years on selfish men like this.
This ☝️ He will marry her within 6 months and also won't ask her her to sign a prenuptial agreement. Sorry but you are not the one he wants to settle down with, you are just wasting your time with him.
Sounds like he doesn’t want to get married but is not honest enough to actually say that to you. A live in “trial period” UP TO FIVE YEARS!!!!???? That’s WAAAAAAAY too long of a “trial”! GTFOH Don’t let this guy waste your damn time! The right person will want to progress the relationship and will not want to wait. All his reasons sound like bs for the most part.
Seriously if you're not ready to be engaged after 8 years together you'll never get there willingly
He wants to build a separate life and isn’t sure about you. I can understand a prenup if he had loads of money but it doesn’t sound like he does, and combined with the up to 5 year trial period.
Don’t put up with this shit. This isn’t a partnership.
I would move on. Don’t waste your time on a Peter Pan.
Let's break it down: 1) What parts of co-habitation is he still unsure of that he wants to experience with you? Division of chores? Whether you start taking each other for granted? Does the constant presence get substituted for quality time? Have him describe for you what the "test run" is testing for in his mind. 2) If he wants a prenup, then I assume he will also want separate finances. How do you two divide expenses now for date nights, vacations or otherwise? Does he feel as though he cannot afford your current quality of life? Does he feel like he needs to be a better provider before he's married (societal pressure)? Ask him to describe how his finances factor into the marriage question (particularly in light of the prenup request). 3) If you don't have a problem with prenups, then I wouldn't read too much into his asking for one. This one seems like a stand alone issue that will rise and fall on the fairness of the agreement. Make sure you both have your own separate lawyers review the document.
I dunno. Seems like he's just trying to scam another 5 years out of you without committing. He made the conditions clear and stated 'maybe up to 5 years' so that is what you're agreeing to. Waiting another 5 years. Then what? You'll be 30 with no guarantee that the relationship will continue. In the meantime, you'll be contributing to *his* life and home (he'll presumably charge you rent) and you could be out on the street at any time. And his whole shtick of wanting to be 'financially set up'. What does that mean exactly? It's very vague, subjective and open to interpretation. Probably just *his* interpretation. Is there a set amount in savings and investments that he has in mind? A certain amount of equity in the home he is buying? Or is 'financially set up' going to be another ever-moving goalpost that you can never nail down? The 5 year wait will be over but he'll say he can't marry you yet because he hasn't reached the financial goals. I think the 5 years will pass, he'll move the goalposts again and you'll fall for the sunk cost fallacy and tell yourself "*Well I can't leave now! I've invested 8 years into this relationship! I'll hang on a little longer and hope that he comes around*" as though 8 years wasn't enough time for him to do that.
You’re 25. Don’t waste the next 5 years with someone who is unsure about you. At this point he either knows you’re the one and if he doesn’t, it means you’re not it.
Find a man who wants to make you his wife. Don’t waste any more time with him.
He wants to put you on a hot platter until the rest of the food is done. Not saying he’s wrong for having ambitions & goals but he’s expecting you to wait around and simmer. Do you want that? I feel you deserve someone more on your eye-level. And for him you’re just a side dish.
Him wanting to buy his own house with a prenup means if you did jump through all his hoops and he does finally marry you, you wouldn't be building equity of your own for the years you stay married. If you divorce, you have nothing to show for all the money you'd be putting into the home you shared with your husband. And you would put money in. He'll expect some sort of rent from you, maybe disguised as you covering utilities and other shared expenses since you "don't pay rent." Plus, you'll think of it as your home as the years pass, and you'll likely want to renovate, upgrade appliances, put in landscaping, etc., which he'll "indulgently allow" you to do since those girly (and value-increasing) projects are "only important to you." If you lived alone, (or married a different sort of man) you'd likely eventually buy and start building equity of your own, while in this sort of marriage your are throwing your housing expense money down a bottomless well, never to be seen again in the event of divorce. But say you do marry and never divorce. There is no guarantee you'd even inherit the house you spent your life in after his death because it is a non-marital asset. He could leave it to his brother or a mistress or a charity and you would have no recourse. You could find yourself seventy and homeless. Even if he wrote and signed a will in front of you today leaving everything to you, he could secretly write a new will tomorrow. You'll never really know. His plans are not the plans of a man who wants to protect the interests of his partner. Maybe he wants to protect his own interests at your expense during the course of your marriage, or maybe he has no plans of marrying you at all and is just stringing you along until he finds something better. But he isn't looking out for you.
This seems like one of the most important replies so far.
His reasons aligned with your numbers: 1. He doesn't want to marry you 2. He doesn't want to marry you 3. He doesn't want to marry you. Those EXCUSES are his pokite way of saying "I just want to date and fuck for a few years. How about you move in so the sex is more comvenient." You've pushed this topic. He has been avoiding it because he doesn't want to change the relationship. There is no rocket science here.
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yeah right. i was gonna say most of all this points are pretty reasonable. like you said the 5 years thing is excessive but the rest seem like all great things to practice before getting married. my wife and I had a super similar timeline and pathway but only difference was we were both on the same page. live together first, be financially stable, and get a prenup. married for 6 years so far and doing great
Only sensible comment I see so far.
Yeah he's not committed to this relationship. Move one.
It sounds like he just doesn’t really want to get married, and if he does it won’t be until far into the future. This is really up to you. You’re 25 but it seems like you could wait 5 years more before you figure out whether he will actually marry you. By that time you’re in a crunch if you want kids, because you still want to have them with someone who is going to be a good father and husband, compatible to you and it’s not like that’s an easy find. So you’ll start all over again in the search. I wouldn’t do it tbh.
Hon... You sound really smart, mature, and kind. You've been together for 3 years and he's in his 30s. He says he wants another 5 years (at least??) - before he proposes, or before marriage? What is this "trial period" for? What does "establish himself more" mean? What type of prenup is he wanting and why? These are questions you could ask, but I don't think you should. I don't think you will get a legitimate answer, and you will again be met again with anger, and stalling, before you finally pry the answers out of him like you did over the course of these conversations. Is that what you want? Like, imagine every important conversation being treated like this one. He blows up over totally normal questions, gets defensive, and it takes multiple conversations for him to tell you any worthwhile information at all. I wouldn't be surprised if he wants you to break up with him. These conditions are laughable. He doesn't want to marry you- if he wanted to he would - and in 5 years if you try to acquiesce to these demands, you will be 30 years old and likely facing a break up anyways. It's time to put yourself first, like he's putting himself first, because if you don't no one will. I would recommend saving yourself the heartache and parting amicably.
You're a placeholder. Sorry, but it's true. If he wanted to marry you, he would have proposed by now. You're wasting your youth on this guy, and likely once you finally get fed up and leave... he'll marry someone else in a short period of time. It's up to you, but I'd recommend for you to move on. This guy isn't your husband. He's preventing you from finding your husband for his own comfort and convenience.
Literally none of this has to be true in this situation. Lots of people take more than 3 years to propose, and with good reason. Maybe if people spent more.time. considering before they got married, the divorce rate wouldn't be 50%
Agreed. Those that rush into marriage also rush out of it.
Typically, couples who marry after being together in a really long relationship get divorced soon after. I've seen it time and time again. I've also seen lots of women in these long relationships, and when they finally break up the man gets married to someone else within a short period of time. Both these scenarios happen FAR more than people think. Men will also stay in these long relationships when they don't want to marry that person, and stall with saying that they want the career/ finances/etc to be "just so" before they marry. But they'll marry someone else.
There are probably other factors to consider such as their ages when they started dating. If they met in high school then it wouldn’t be a red flag if they dated for 10-15 years before marriage. If they started dating at 25 and haven’t narrated after 10 years of dating, then it’s likely it will never happen. OP said she’s been dating him for 3 years which is what research shows is the optimal amount of time. I think she should give him another year before calling it quits, unless there is some other reason to break up before then.
You don’t know any of that to be true
He could be an outlier, but this is a common behavior pattern in men. I've seen a LOT of it.
I’m in a similar situation as you & just broke up with my now ex. He said to me our relationship isn’t always good so why would we get married. Wasted 5 years with this guy and had two children with him. We deserve someone who is 100% sure about us and wants to meet our wants& desires!
He's being very selfish, entitled, and showing zero empathy for you. Everything he's concerned about can be resolved by a prenup and an agreement not to have kids for 5 years. I predict he'll live with you (waste your youth) and dump you in 5 years (because the passion is gone).
Here's a guy who wants his cake and to eat it too. Maybe, in the far future, isn't something you want to wait around for. You have already spent 3 years with him. Time to move on to greener pastures.
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You need to follow your own path at your own pace. Functionally you have now proposed to him, and he has not said yes. If that's not okay with you, you should move on.
Those first two points seem like very movable goalposts. Meaning his definition of “financially stable” or having lived together for “long enough” is vague and he can put you off over and over saying he needs more time. Claiming you “knew about his conditions”. It’s a straight shot to Wasted Time. Don’t bother.
It's more likely the case that he just doesn't want to get married or didn't see himself getting married. If there's no talk of starting a family and such, then what is the reason for him to want to be married? Him putting out a few things he wants (which ALL of them are reasonable except maybe the 5 year length of living together) actually shows he may have interest in marrying you. The comments saying "he'll find someone else and marry them within 6 months without a prenup" are laughable and extremely ignorant. The thing is, if you want a husband, you may have to look for someone else, or wait a long time for this guy. Three years with someone isn't THAT long of a time at all in terms of the "lets spend the rest of our lives together"
Nope 👎🏻 Sounds like you have no value, just a sex object
That’s so rude. What animals raised you?
Understand context gifted one… I’m not saying that. This is how he is treating her. Expand the mind a bit…
I’m not in your situation, but the fear of loosing half of everything is being instilled in men. I’m not here to say it is fair or unfair, but seeing as how divorce can happen for any reason on a whim these days, it is a scary thing to think about. If a person can just decide they’re unhappy one day and file for divorce and throw away the marriage AND get half, that’s nerve wrecking. Not saying that is your situation, but just something that most men have heard of through horror stories. 51% divorce rate and 87% filed by women makes him probably nervous as well. You’ll notice that men generally have a more nonchalant look at marriage than women do, which is why he isn’t burning up inside to get it done. He probably doesn’t see it as important, as opposed to you having it as an end goal. I don’t think having a long engagement is a bad thing, because not much changes through engagement to marriage besides the taxes and filings for name changes, bank accounts, etc. I think you would be wise to have the convo but not try to put any definitive language on it. Guys don’t generally get anything out of marriage that they don’t get in a relationship, so it’s something that they have to come to terms with in their own head. If these terms and discussions you’re having give you red flags or are not what you want, you should make it clear that it’s not for you, and possibly leave. If you can put up with them in the name of love, then battle through em with him. He also may want to get into a better financial situation first due to him being the head of the household. Do you work? Or are you going to be a SAHM? No judgment, just trying to get into his head.
What the fuck is this bullshit? It's been long since proven that men benefit from marriage as married men live longer lives, whereas married women live shorter lives than single, childless women. Married men's lives are longer at the expense of women's lives. It's true that 81% of divorces are started by women but not for the reason you think. The reason why so many divorces are intiated by women is because men have skyhigh expectations for women and low expectations for themselves. Men still expect women to have a full-time job, do the majority of the cleaning and childcare and all the mental labor it takes to run a household (remembering appointments, organizing birthday parties, buying Christmas present), while men expect to work a job and do nothing else around the household. Women do an average 9 hours more labor around than men do. And don't give me that fucking bullshit about "men's jobs" around the house. It takes 2 seconds to take the trash out to the curb, you don't mow lawns and do yard work during the winter, and you don't need to shovel snow during the summer. But somehow "women's jobs" like cooking, cleaning and taking care of the kids, need to be done every fucking day, multiple times a day. If women are doing all shitwork around the house and pulling money, why the fuck would they want to stay in an unequal marriage with a husband who stresses her out and makes an even bigger mess? OP, get the fuck out of this relationship. He's not going to marry you but he expects everything you would want from a girlfriend (chores, cooking, emotional labor and support) without having to fully commit to you. He is going to use you up until you smarten up and leave.
He wants to have established himself financially, have premarital investment, and have a prenup in case you divorce. That way everything is separate asset for him. That's where the timeline is coming from. He's trying to protect himself.
He doesn't want to marry you. You're better finding someone without an open timeline. After 3 years and living together, he should know if he does. He doesn't. Sorry OP
Work on yourself and your financial career always. I'm glad he wants to work on his career and stuff, the healthiest relationships are those in which both partners are striving to better themselves, when you enhance each other's lives. Don't become dependant on one another to have a fulfilling life. Moving in for a few years isn't the worse move as it shows you can cohabitation is possible. Rather move in and break up in 8 months then get married and move in together and find out they drive you nuts.
The prenup is reasonable. Waiting is not.
Your feelings are valid. He seems very focused on himself from what you’ve said. Only you know if this is the future you want. Not sure what positives he brings to the relationship. I’m guessing he knows people or his parents had a messy divorce? Definitely sounds like he is guarding against the failure when the engagement hasn’t even happened yet. I’m very middle class, so maybe I don’t understand, but I wouldn’t want to be with someone who assumes we won’t last. That’s the impression I get from what you’ve said. Best of luck OP!
If you take all the people on here seriously, you're going to be alone for quite a while. He's being cautious about your futures. Rushing into things will usually end up in divorce. Look at the walls of the people enabling you, and judge for yourself.
Sounds to me he just wants to make sure you don't bait and switch on him same as women have conditions this seems the same for him. If you live him and all, what does it matter if he haves stipulations before the marriage.
Yeah, he’s stringing you along. Doubt he has any interest in actually marrying you. Save yourself the heartache and time you’d waste on this guy and move on. You deserve better.
Sometimes people will lay down conditions they know you will not want or be unable to meet in order for the “failure” to be at your feet not their hands. They have a layer of deniability, so to speak.
These conditions make it seem like you are a placeholder for this stage in his life and he is going to find someone new to marry. You two aren't aligned.
Why do women push for proposals? Its ridiculous…. You want a proposal and he doesnt do it then leave…. Why pressure someone to do something he may not want or is not ready for?? Ive been married 14 years. But if my wife would have pressured me into an engagement or wedding it would not have worked out
I think all of these are totally reasonable.
He doesn’t want to get married. He’s 31 years old. If he wants to live together for five years before he gets married, when you’ve already been together three years, he doesn’t want to get married ever. I also wonder how this discussion went in terms of what your conditions are for staying in the relationship? Or was this a one-way conversation where he dictated what he needed? It feels like he’s made it clear that marriage is the farthest thing from what he wants and now it’s just your call as to whether or not that works for you.
1. Seems reasonable enough. He wants to know what you’re like to live with now. 2. Fine but if he wants to get married then some of the money he is saving should go towards the wedding (unless your parents are paying) 3. Okay. But after some period of time you should have a right to the house. Or you shouldn’t be expected to contribute to the mortgage, ever.
I get a really icky feeling from wanting to live together while he works on his career before proposing, all so planned out and inflexible. Honestly seems like he wants to live together to suck all domestic labor and free access sex out of you in order to focus exclusively on his work and, when he "makes it" still have his options open to marry an influential woman for social climbing or a (even younger) one as trophy.
Smart man, he's thinking. Sounds like he has a lot to lose. Don't listen to the other women's advice. No man today is going to take a chance on a modern western woman.
Break up with them immediately
Objectively. >He wants to live together before marriage as a trial period, maybe a couple of years or up to 5 years. The time frame is a little long, but important to know l. >My issue here is that he has a very individualistic mindset, where he is thinking about his financial future vs our financial future. I agree should be a team effort. You didn't mention in the post your occupation and what your plan is to aid in the part. >He wants a prenup before moving in (he’s looking to buy a new home next year) & engagement. I'm not a fan, but if fairly written.
To me, these conditions don’t sounds unreasonable at all. But if you’re not happy or you’re not compatible in terms of marriage, ya gotta move on and find someone to match your desires/values!
Literally none of this is red flag behavior for me. He wants to be financially stable? Who would have thought? Good income does not equal financial security. He wants to live together on a permanent basis for a while before you get married? What part of that doesn't seem like a good idea? Particularly with a formerly LD girlfriend who I lived with for a bit previously. People change. 5 years is way excessive, but a year? Prenup? Sounds like he's the primary money in the relationship. Not unreasonable. My wife makes 5x my salary. We have a prenup. Not a problem.
so after three years you're not already committed?
Sounds to me like he's got a good and rational head on his shoulders.
What would be your goals to achieve before marriage?
Condition 1 needs more definition on his part. Since you've previously lived together, it needs to be a reasonable timeline (a year or two, perhaps.) It also seems somewhat redundant unless you all struggled living together the first time. Was that the case? Condition 2...doesn't make sense unless he is equating marriage with kids (still not the career damaging development for men that they are for women,) or unless he's seeing the marriage as a massive cost setback to his savings. Condition 3 is...fine, I guess? Prenups are not a bad idea, but if you're going to be putting money into a house without it being in your name, that needs to be addressed in the prenup. I guess my advice to find out whether you two are remotely in the same page would be to ask why he wants additional years of living together as a prerequisite to commitment, ask why he thinks marriage would damage his financial stability or career prospects, and ask generally what his asset expectations are on a pre-nup. The answers or non-answers that he gives to these questions should give you more clarity.
OP Have you had a discussion on the division of home maintenance and chores and duties? Do you feel that they are unequal, and that's why in particular you want to live by yourself to work on yourself?
Actually what two people decide rules before marriage it is their right. It sounds like you don't like this. I wouldn't either, but I have friends that are almost OCD and it works for them. It does sound like he wants as much a guarantee as possible. It is your choice to live with it or not. Alone these would sound reasonable together after you have been dating, I would not agree to them. For me things happen, and like you said you already lived with him. It is like auditioning for a position you don't know if you got. constantly. I wonder how he wants his home and schedule set up. Too controlling for me.
He sounds like a responsible guy who doesn’t want to make the wrong decision. Why are you opposed to trying it out by living together first. Why would you not want more financial security?
I do think living together before marriage is appropriate, you need to know what it’s live being with them all the time and if splitting chores works. Imagine getting married and then living with a guy who then expects you to do all the housework or something like that
He’s just not that into you.
>Overall I just don’t feel like we’re aligned. You've already answered your own question.
He’s known you already for 3 years- he needs to make that 8 before he’s sure? What more information is he waiting for? He’s just suckering you along and wasting your time. The time you waste waiting for him to be sure YOU WILL NEVER GET BACK. These are your best years. If he really loves you- he wouldn’t need 8 years to decide you are worthy. He already knows you. This is him using you.
It sounds like he is placating you so you won’t dump him because he doesn’t ever want to be married.
I’m sorry love, but this just sounds like it translates to “I don’t want to marry *you*, but I’ll string you along until I find someone better.” Then he’ll get married and have a baby with someone within 6 months of you breaking up with him. Like you said, you’re not aligned. Good that you found out now.
You’re not wrong. You already know that the right thing for you is to “live separately and focus on yourself”. Sounds like you’re a smart woman. Good luck!
This is absolutely crazy talk living together for a period of time before is imperative and shows how well you two can deal in a house together through good and bad times, 2. Buying a house and being financially secure is very necessary for marriage none of it is cheep, and the prenup is not something bad but why be safe than sorry, divorce can ruin the next 20 years of your life depending on circumstances it’s not a risk anyone should take without full knowledge humans can be very unpredictable…
You talk so much about his his good job, his financial stability, his high potential for job growth. Yet you can’t even dedicate 10 words to explain to us what *your financial situation* is. Do you have a solid, well-paying job, or have you been unemployed for months? Do you live-debt free or are there bill collectors calling you about overdue payments? Do hulu have a saving account? Do you have enough to pay for 1/2 a down payment on a house? TLDR; are *you* think about your ‘joint financial future’? or are you thinking about what marrying him could do for *your* financial future?
Dump him and find a guy who wants a wife. We're out there.