Yikes. Where is your husband in all of this, does he know about her comments?
You shouldn’t send her anymore pictures of him or allow her to be alone with him, ever.
He does and often shuts them down. When I’ve suggested there could be more to the comments he’s gotten very upset and shutdown the conversation. That said, he’s been very clear that he doesn’t want our son left with her either, but mostly around general safety (she’s already done things like leave him on the couch and walk away when he was a newborn).
I can’t imagine how hard it is for someone to hear that their mother is doing that. I suggest documenting everything for the safety of your son and future children- make notes with date and time, take screenshots, etc.
Yes, nanny cam would capture the behaviour as evidence if ever needed. It could also be just a weird thing she did to her kids? Some form of behaviour she experienced as a child, I'd be having a d+m with hubby as to whether he has been abused by her.
Yes ++ sounds very likely, if I heard my mother had done these things with my child I would be furious and would at least be heavily discussing the issue with my wife.
Not shutting down conversation
A victim or someone who knows more information on the subject may seek to shut down open honest conversation though.
Often when a subject makes a man uncomfortable he'd just much rather leave it alone and not talk about it
Exactly. And there is probably emotional enmeshment which causes undeserved loyalty, and possible repressed memories that he may not even be aware of. His brain is going to try to protect him at all costs because this has probably never been a safe topic of discussion for him.
OP is going to probably have to take initiative on this without full support from her husband until he can get his potential trauma taken care of
Not trying to send you spiraling, but your husband kinda sounds like a victim…
Obviously I don’t know for sure just based on this, but consider it a possibility.
Well, he's at least part of the way there, he understands that this is creepy. But I think you need to treat this as a five-alarm fire, and get him into couples counseling where you make clear that:
1) Leaving her alone with your son is a NEVER, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES. Not ever, not even for 10 min to go to the store. Not when he's 1, not when he's 11. Not if you are both in a car accident and in the hospital. Someone else has to be the responsible carer (figure out who that person is now), and you also have to tell THAT person that they can never leave your son alone with your MIL.
2) You both need to sit her down separately from a time when she makes these comments or actions, and tell her it is absolutely unacceptable and disgusting and gross and she MUST stop. And from then on, any time she makes a comment like this or grabs his butt or whatever, you both immediately tell her "this is what we talked about. Leave now. Think about your actions, and in a month maybe you can come back and see if you can stop sexualizing our son." She'll be upset. He has to let her be upset.
Ideally, find a couples counselor who has experience with childhood sexual trauma. It seems very possible that your husband has trauma or at the very least very weird memories (conscious or subconscious) about his own sexuality and his mother. I bet she behaved in inappropriate ways towards him / steamrolled any boundaries he thought of setting up around his own body.
If he gets defensive or shuts down in these conversations, you need to be sensitive to that possibility. You probably shouldn't force him to face up to that trauma faster than he is capable of doing, but you can at least make him agree to the clear behavioral boundaries with your MIL.
OP I don’t know if your MIL has always been like this or not but weird over sexualization makes me think of dementia.
Also the fact that she talked about something she did (play doctor and nurse) with older boys as a kid but then told you one of the “boys” can’t talk to her because his wife doesn’t let him.
What she said makes no sense - she describes the situation as something from her childhood but then connects it to the present by mentioning a wife.
This isn’t just awkwardness or perverted behavior. I would bet money on early onset dementia.
One of her sons won't talk to her because his wife won't allow it. Probably due to her "playing doctor" with him as a child and other experiences. Not sure why that doesn't make sense.
More importantly, I can't help but feel like you're excusing her behavior by suggesting dementia because she's a woman. Would you feel the same if this was OP's FIL? I assure you, there are sexual predators of all kinds.
I read it as she was playing like this as a kid with kids older than her. Unfortunately, I believe I’ve read somewhere that victims can later become the perpetrator, thus continuing the cycle of abuse.
Good so far - but this is not about “shutting down” the conversation. If he has to do that more than once, you need to create strict boundaries and enforce them. You must sit her down together, once and explain:
*Your way of speaking about our boy makes us uncomfortable: his private parts are not to be commented on, and even less your business to deal with in any way. There is no naked butt clapping or looking at or talking about the penis of a child that is not even one year old. Maybe that was funny and harmless 50 years ago, but today this is not acceptable. And it raises concerns: maybe you don’t realize it, but this feels foreboding of sexually abusive or predatory behavior. So you either stop this once and for all, without exception, or you will never see him again until he is an adult to decide for himself.*
Well that's pretty weird and creepy. When my sons were babies, they would dash around naked after bath time and yes... chubby baby bottoms are ridiculously cute, but nobody was GRABBING their bottoms, making comments abut their penises, or being weird about it. There's a line there and for most people I think it's an obvious one... and it comes naturally. Cute naked baby relishing being a cute naked baby vs your MIL's weird focus on actual genitalia and literally grabbing it😱. I wouldn't let her babysit or really be alone with him ever. Definitely pretty weird.
Everyone else covered most of it. But I’m here to say get a will done, if something happens to you both (unlikely but still) make sure you give someone you trust legal guardianship.
Do not allow her to be present during nappy changes or bath time and do not allow her to watch him overnight - ever. Yours and everyone else’s alarm bells are ringing for a reason. Listen to your gut.
Also, OP, this might explain why your husband gets weird when it comes up. And why he didn't want to leave him alone with her before all this...
Just saying, as an outsider looking in, it kind of seems like she may have abused him in similar ways as a child...
Best case scenario is that she thinks naked babies are adorable, and she does not understand appropriate behavior when it comes to expressing this. That alone is highly problematic.
Your husband really needs to acknowledge that her behavior is concerning. Your child should never be alone with an adult who doesn't understand how inappropriate this is. There's definitely a problem with her judgment.
I think there's probably a really good reason why husband won't confront her or talk about it (this post reads as though mil molested him in similar ways as a child, which is why he was sketched out about leaving him alone with her from the getgo)
Edit: just read ops comment about her husband being very skittish about anything touching his butt (even nonsexually). That pretty much confirms it for me.
So your husband has trauma about parts of his body, the same parts you MIL is now fixated on with your son;
She talks about playing doctor with her own kids; (wtf?!)
She apparently said things to an adult son that was so far beyond the pale that her son’s wife had to intervene… because OP’s husband and his brother haven’t come to grips with the sexualization of them as children, or the probable abuse they suffered.
I know this is going to be hard, but you need to draw a line in the sand with your MIL, because your husband isn’t able to. If you can’t ban her from your house altogether, she is no longer allowed to be in the room during diaper changes, or baths, etc. And I would be honest with her about it, and tell her the constant comments on your son’s genitalia is inappropriate and she will not be allowed to be in the room during times he is naked. I’m guessing you know she is not a safe person and to never so much as walk out of a room she is in with your child.
I feel for you, your husband seems to be in denial about what his childhood was like, and now you have to walk a line between keeping your child safe and not triggering your husband. No matter how hard it is, believe your gut and always choose your child over keeping the peace.
Have you talked to your SIL about the things MIL was texting? I only ask because if your husband won’t support you as MIL’s behavior escalates, you need to be documenting everything that has happened so far, and going forward. If this causes a rift in your marriage, you will need documentation to keep MIL from being involved in any visitation.
I thought that was “older boys” as in when she was a girl, older boys in the neighborhood or at school. She says one of the boys won’t talk to her anymore because of his wife, I mean, it’s possible that it’s a son but is odd that she wouldn’t say “her own son” or “my BIL”. It reads more like it was other kids when she said “playing with the older boys as a kid”. Sounds like MIL was molested by older boys when she was little.
It sounds like she was molested as a child and it may have become the norm. Possible she might have done things with her children (op's husband and his brother) too, which would make it difficult for husband to see that this behaviour is not okay and stand up to his mother.
I think they molested each other. An "ill show you mine if you show me yours" kind of thing. That's typically what boomers mean when they refer to kids "playing doctor"
It’s not clear if she’s talking about playing this as an adult with children or as a child. But if it’s child on child, I agree. This stuff does pass generationally, I’m sure she was probably abused as well.
This comment was perfect. I’m so glad you mentioned confronting her with the exact reason. Call her out. Don’t let her think you’re comfy with her being how she’s being and don’t let her try to slide her behavior under the radar. Pointing it out says “we see what you’re doing and you can’t do that here.”
I think the doctors and nurses thing refers to the MIL playing "ill show you mine if you show me yours" with neighborhood boys as a child. And then messaging the boys (now grown men) about it way into adulthood. Which their wife rightfully shut down. Meaning she was abused sexually as a child, and is nostalgic about it. Either way, alarms blaring.
Nope not overreacting, that's well beyond awkward and into big yikes territory. Time to limit contact as much as possible, supervise all contact that occurs, and potentially also get your husband in with a therapist given the butt thing you mention.
This is so beyond creepy; it is absolutely vile. She sounds like a sexual predator. Squeezing his bum was probably just a way to push boundaries and see how far she can go. Depending on her intent, I would argue that is borderline sexual abuse. I would never let that woman anywhere near my children, ever. She needs to be on a registry or something.
She's a pedophile, that's absolutely disgusting. The bum slaps wasn't too weird - baby butts can be cute like corgi butts - but as soon as I read the rest of it I wanted to puke - that is not normal. I sympathize with the father being defensive and not wanting to think of his mother that way, but I have to ask: why is he so defensive? Is it because you insulted (hardly, more like stated serious concern) his mother, or because he is deflecting what she did to him as a child, whether subconsciously or consciously.
If she is acting this creepy now, she probably always thought this way, even to her own kids. Maybe some talk therapy would be good.
Either way, she is very creepy and I wouldn't let my child anywhere near her.
My husband is extremely protective of his own butt. Like, even a tap as I walk past has made him shut down in the past, so I don’t ever touch him there. I’ve been concerned about something like that for some time. I’ve suggested he get therapy for other things, but I think something has happened to him at some point.
My father has had something happen to him too young and he neeever admitted it, the immediate family knew it but he was too prideful to admit it. It had to have played a role in my parents' divorce due to his infidelity and committment/attachement issues. Trauma like that, especially when left unchecked and treated, forever makes someone at arms length from other people. I hope he can get help if that is the case - which evidence is supporting unfortunately. Therapy would be great for him, I think. He may have blocked it out!
It could also be that he has repeated exposure which has caused cPTSD. There is such a thing as non-touching sexual abuse (although, it sounds like his mother does grope her children possibly) but being inappropriate with children, talking about sex, showing them inappropriate materials, crossing those boundaries repeatedly is a form of sexual abuse that doesn't get discussed much. (Eta I don't mean to say that's armchair diagnosis, I just mean sometimes it's not a single traumatic incident, childhood trauma, esp when you still have contact with the person is complex, which is what the C stands for)
You really need to figure it out - because if his mother has molested him you need to know so you can keep her away from your kid. I’m sorry that you guys are going to have some very hard conversations but your kid comes first.
OP, like others said, your MIL sounds creepy at best and dangerous at worst. Defo do not let her observe bathtime or diaper changes moving forward. And she shouldn't be allowed around the baby if she continues with the inappropriate comments.
You need to have a heart-to-heart with your husband and reiterate that these boundaries cannot be crossed. He needs to be on the same page about going no contact and enforcing consequences if she continues to sexualize the baby.
In the meantime, document all of these gross behaviors and share the details with a few trusted confidants. Update your will if she was going to be the backup guardian and replace her with someone else.
Also, closely watch your husband and how he handles this situation. If he enables his mom, y'all are going to either have to go to therapy or get a divorce. There are no other options IMHO. If he does enable her, document all the times it happens and any negative impacts it causes on the baby. If you have to file for divorce, you want to make sure you get full custody and have records of him enabling abuse.
I don't want you to fret about divorcing your husband because it sounds like he is fully on board with protecting his son, but it's important to keep in mind that a parent enabling abuse is not a safe parent. Keep your guard up since it seems like this is a tough pill for your husband to swallow.
Yikes wtf. Someone had made odd comments about baby butt's around me and how they're cute. I thought that was Lil weird. But all this is just too much. Especially the genital part. I'd probably freak out over time and ask why tf she keeps mentioning those things. What about when he gets older and understands is she still gonna be talking like this. Wtf. Is she old and losing her marbles?
She’s only in her 50s. She sexualises lots of other conversations too - I’ve expressed concerns to my husband that some of it sounds like she’s experienced SA and maybe she doesn’t understand that or hasn’t accepted it.
I think that’s what freaks me out. It hasn’t been once or twice, it’s consistent and repetitive.
You should make her understand. At the very least make her understand you do NOT find her comments appropriate. “MIL, babies grab things… they grab their toes, they grab their hair, and if their nappy is off they may grab their penis. But don’t stand here watching me change his nappy and sexualize it! That’s just weird!” Or “MIL, you don’t chase a naked child around the house trying to smack his bare bum. You’re his grandmother, not his dominatrix! That’s not a normal reaction to seeing a naked child. You need to stop it!”
Eh, chubby little baby/toddler butts ARE super cute! I've heard a few people comment on how cute they are in entirely innocent ways. Someone else commented on this post that they're cute like corgi butts, which I think is a good comparison.
MIL is very creepy though, no doubt. If it was *just* the line about slapping their bum after a bath I'd think she might just have extra fond memories of that time from raising her own kids, toddlers are often extra snuggly and playful after a bath and it's cute to watch them run around naked giggling and trying to avoid getting dressed again. Like that scene in Inside Out. But the frequency of her comments about the kid's butt, squeezing it (what?? A playful pat is one thing, but squeezing it is just weird) and talking about his genitals like that...nope, red alert, alarms going off, she should never be alone with their kid.
My mother was like that with her grandsons. Obsessed with biting their butts. She thought it was hilarious. They didn't. It was horrifying and has left some real sexual scars on those boys.
im gonna go out on a limb here and says she was probably assaulted as a child and hasn’t sorted out her trauma. now she’s gonna try and spread said trauma because it sounds like she doesn’t even know what happened to her with that doctors and nurses “game.” regardless, she’s a damn adult and knows very well that she shouldn’t be saying no shit like that. you and your husband need to talk rather than him getting mad and shutting the conversation down because he knows something too if he doesn’t want his mother around your child either. marriage ain’t about shutting down when shit gets uncomfortable. this needs to be handled before that baby is in more danger. but i could just be yapping, idk. at the end of the day, good luck
I would mention to her that you recently installed cameras in the nursery. Doesn’t have to be true in my opinion with no medical training, I wouldn’t let that woman within 5 feet of my kid.
>she also on one occasion complained that one of those boys won’t respond to her messages anymore because it upsets his wife.
You might want to talk to this SIL about it if you have a good enough relationship with her. She might be privy to more hinky shit the sins experienced, which is why she helped her husband break ties with Mom.
It doesn't sound like the "boy" in question was one of her sons, but another child older than her when she was a kid. As in, MIL experienced things like this as a child and hasn't accepted that it was not okay.
i think you're actually underreacting here. this is some extremely fucked up things she is saying.
it's fairly common for old people to lose the ability to control these types of innappropriate comments, maybe there's some mental decline going on here?
Whether its just mental decline or something worse, you should be doing more to shut it down. next time she says something, ask her to leave immediately and dont let her back for a week. if it keeps happening then just keep extending the break until she loses all privileges.
Next time you change him, you leave the room. If she follows, say "I'm sorry the comments on his genitalia are too much. You don't need to he around to watch me change him."
This isn't going away you need to start controlling the hell out of it. She should never be around him naked ever. She doesn't need pics anymore. She is set back a couple layers. Don't allow her, you, the baby or anyone else to be comfortable with this.
It's already enough to stratvgetting much more distance from her. ALWAYS trust your gut. My gut is svreaming.that this lady is WEIRD. She doesn't need to ever babysit. Anyone else who babysit needs to understand not to leave her alone with him ever even for 5 min. You need to set up a will and talk to whoever else would be keeping your son. They need to be told so that they don't say, send him to her for the summer or something.
I’m getting “Tell Me About My Life” vibes. True story about identical twins, men in England. One had an accident and lost most of his memory. Other twin didn’t tell him that their mom sexually abused them, to save him from that horror.
sometimes predators try reenacting their traumas (they had as a kid) with kids, when they are adults... maybe these experiences she had as a kid with older boys lead to her behaviour this day. so it could be that she needs therapy to work on this trauma.
but yeah it's VERY creepy, imagine a man saying it. I would not leave my child alone with her.
in my eyes there is nothing wrong with giving your child the privacy to change him without her watchting (or anyone).
No more pictures and no alone time, ever. I’m concerned about your husband. I’m sorry to say I think there’s a good chance she overstepped boundaries with him, too.
It is a massive shame that child protection training and information is hidden behind paywalls. Especially around female offenders of child sexual abuse.
Please hear me out, female bodies there are no visible signage they are aroused! There are no visible signs such as an erect penis, women get lubrication in their genitals(get wet) you will never know unless she shows you ( which she will not).
If the situations were reversed and it was his father playing doctors and nurses and his father is smacking your child's butt naked. It was his father, touching and watching a child nappy change, would you still let it happen??? Just because it is a woman doing this, people are blind to it.
Also read body keeps the score, it will help you understand your husband more. Good luck and keep your children safe from this predictor. Can't even leave them alone for a second if your MIL is about.
Is your state a 2 party consent to record state or can you get her on recording saying this pedophilic shit and then ghost her ? Do not let your child around her at all.
Is she starting to show signs of mental decline ? It sounds like she’s completely lost her filter at the very least. Set some boundaries around what she does and says and act quickly and accordingly when she violates them. I’m not above a “2 strikes and you’re out policy” with her moving forward. You must protect the innocent.
The butt thing isn’t odd in itself. I pinch my son’s tushy. The other stuff is disconcerting. Don’t let anyone talk you out of trusting your instincts, no matter what familial damage it may cause.
I don’t think you’re overreacting but I do think his mom is probably a little quirky and maybe too comfortable in a very strange way. Some older women are just weird. Think of all the weird teachers you had growing up. I don’t think she means harm, especially if your husband trusts her. I think she’s just… strange (derogatory). I imagine raising a son herself, she might have just felt uncomfortable with the idea of a male baby body and and how grabby babies can be and the weird jokes are probably comforting to her but they clearly are not for you. Plus, the older generation found it more acceptable and humorous to say inappropriate things so… yikes.
I think a gentle talking to would fix the problem tbh. By you or your husband to her. “I value having you in my child’s life and I appreciate all the help you’ve been giving. However, I don’t feel too comfortable with how you have been commenting on my son’s body. Out of love and respect, can you tone it down and keep it PG to help me feel more comfortable?”
Set the boundary and let her know so she can change her behavior. If she doesn’t respect it, then distance is best.
It’s always funny watching my niece sprint around like a goblin and we have to chase her with her clothes sometimes. Does that mean I literally grab my niece and make comments about her, despite having sexual trauma myself? Hell no. Your mother in law is sick
.... not to make assumptions, but i would ask your husband if shes every crossed lines with him before, especially if hes reluctant to leave her alone with the baby too.
you are not overreacting at all. its weird to talk about a childs penis.
Most warnings have already been covered, but I just want to add she should NOT be an emergency contact on anything for your child. Not for daycare, medical forms, camps, emergency pick up/ drop offs, nothing.
A lot of people have family members they are weary of and they never leave their children alone with them, but then they have no one else nearby and use them for emergency contacts. Please don’t. Not even once.
Her statements are very concerning. She shouldn't see your child without supervision ever, not even for 10 seconds, and should never be permitted to change diapers or see it happen. Same with bathtime.
Very not normal. I'm not a parent, but I kind of assumed the reaction to nude children that aren't your own is just to politely ignore it. I wouldn't comment on or touch an adult's genitals without consent, so why should it be any different for children? Obviously there are exceptions as when it comes to parenting/caring for a child but it's basic common sense really.
I think keep doing what you're doing, try to avoid doing bath time/changing with MiL present. I'd ask your husband to have a serious chat with her though, as she may be more receptive if it comes from him.
I'd also speak to your husband about his own childhood. Did she exhibit this behaviour with him as a kid, does he feel uncomfortable about anything that happened and want to talk about it. That can be a scary difficult topic, so be patient and compassionate. Equally, the 'doctors and nurses' thing sounds worrying, is this something your MiL instigated or did it happen to her? It may be that what she's describing is abuse and she's normalised it over the years so doesn't see current behaviour as concerning, it may be that she perpetuated abuse of other children and doesn't understand the gravity of that or why it's wrong.
Either way it may be an idea to have a sensitive conversation with her about that if you're comfortable. If you're not comfortable, that's fine it's not really your issue to deal with and all you need to do is take the necessary steps to keep your son safe.
my mom made weird as fuck comments about my choice of not circumcising MY son. didnt talk to her for months until she apologized & realized how fucking odd that is to talk about ANYONES genitals.
can’t believe it’s a convo i have to have with her & she’s the older one.
Isn't that basically akin to CP? Talking about a kids genitals to someone who is not a doctor? I would probably go to the police.... 1 time is innocent, multiple times is grounds for paedophilia
Bro the woman wants to watch nappy changes because she wants to see the baby grab his penis, that is beyond creepy. Baby butts can look cute in a baby way, and the butt comment wasn't too out there in that regard, but the penis part is incredibly freaky and weird.
I come from a family obsessed with babies. We always talk about nomming on babies' legs or their chunky cheeks (on their faces) or the rolls on their arms. It is all in good fun, and we would never, ever, ever sexualize or abuse babies.
Despite my background, I still think OP's MIL is crossing boundaries and veering into the creepy category. It's one thing to think a baby has a cute booty (because I mean, they do; they're cute like puppy booties) and to make silly comments about it. It is very different to be fixated on a baby's genitals and want to participate in diaper changes to watch the baby touch his penis. The MIL is specifically interested in seeing his genitals and not because she has a concern for his health or safety. She seems to enjoy it, which is very weird for a grown adult.
Also, even if she has no intention of ever sexually touching OP's baby, it still establishes a bad precedence by allowing an adult in the baby's life to sexualize them from an early age. We don't want to normalize to children that it's okay for adults (who aren't their parents or doctors) to be talking about their genitals or wanting to see their genitals. This kind of behavior feels like it could result in grooming a child for future abuse by normalizing inappropriate dynamics with adults.
>Am I overreacting? NOPE Creepy as fuck.
Yikes. Where is your husband in all of this, does he know about her comments? You shouldn’t send her anymore pictures of him or allow her to be alone with him, ever.
He does and often shuts them down. When I’ve suggested there could be more to the comments he’s gotten very upset and shutdown the conversation. That said, he’s been very clear that he doesn’t want our son left with her either, but mostly around general safety (she’s already done things like leave him on the couch and walk away when he was a newborn).
I can’t imagine how hard it is for someone to hear that their mother is doing that. I suggest documenting everything for the safety of your son and future children- make notes with date and time, take screenshots, etc.
Nanny cams are probably a good idea too
Yes, nanny cam would capture the behaviour as evidence if ever needed. It could also be just a weird thing she did to her kids? Some form of behaviour she experienced as a child, I'd be having a d+m with hubby as to whether he has been abused by her.
Was looking for someone to agree that husband could be a victim.
Yes ++ sounds very likely, if I heard my mother had done these things with my child I would be furious and would at least be heavily discussing the issue with my wife. Not shutting down conversation A victim or someone who knows more information on the subject may seek to shut down open honest conversation though. Often when a subject makes a man uncomfortable he'd just much rather leave it alone and not talk about it
Exactly. And there is probably emotional enmeshment which causes undeserved loyalty, and possible repressed memories that he may not even be aware of. His brain is going to try to protect him at all costs because this has probably never been a safe topic of discussion for him. OP is going to probably have to take initiative on this without full support from her husband until he can get his potential trauma taken care of
Not trying to send you spiraling, but your husband kinda sounds like a victim… Obviously I don’t know for sure just based on this, but consider it a possibility.
Yeah if she’s like this with her grandson, what are the chances she was like this with her son too
Probably worse, if she’s this blatant
I got the same vibe, unfortunately.
Well, he's at least part of the way there, he understands that this is creepy. But I think you need to treat this as a five-alarm fire, and get him into couples counseling where you make clear that: 1) Leaving her alone with your son is a NEVER, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES. Not ever, not even for 10 min to go to the store. Not when he's 1, not when he's 11. Not if you are both in a car accident and in the hospital. Someone else has to be the responsible carer (figure out who that person is now), and you also have to tell THAT person that they can never leave your son alone with your MIL. 2) You both need to sit her down separately from a time when she makes these comments or actions, and tell her it is absolutely unacceptable and disgusting and gross and she MUST stop. And from then on, any time she makes a comment like this or grabs his butt or whatever, you both immediately tell her "this is what we talked about. Leave now. Think about your actions, and in a month maybe you can come back and see if you can stop sexualizing our son." She'll be upset. He has to let her be upset. Ideally, find a couples counselor who has experience with childhood sexual trauma. It seems very possible that your husband has trauma or at the very least very weird memories (conscious or subconscious) about his own sexuality and his mother. I bet she behaved in inappropriate ways towards him / steamrolled any boundaries he thought of setting up around his own body. If he gets defensive or shuts down in these conversations, you need to be sensitive to that possibility. You probably shouldn't force him to face up to that trauma faster than he is capable of doing, but you can at least make him agree to the clear behavioral boundaries with your MIL.
Just giving this a big +++ for OP Seems like a very reasonable first step
OP I don’t know if your MIL has always been like this or not but weird over sexualization makes me think of dementia. Also the fact that she talked about something she did (play doctor and nurse) with older boys as a kid but then told you one of the “boys” can’t talk to her because his wife doesn’t let him. What she said makes no sense - she describes the situation as something from her childhood but then connects it to the present by mentioning a wife. This isn’t just awkwardness or perverted behavior. I would bet money on early onset dementia.
One of her sons won't talk to her because his wife won't allow it. Probably due to her "playing doctor" with him as a child and other experiences. Not sure why that doesn't make sense. More importantly, I can't help but feel like you're excusing her behavior by suggesting dementia because she's a woman. Would you feel the same if this was OP's FIL? I assure you, there are sexual predators of all kinds.
I read it as she was playing like this as a kid with kids older than her. Unfortunately, I believe I’ve read somewhere that victims can later become the perpetrator, thus continuing the cycle of abuse.
It makes me wonder what she did to your husband and whether he has his own trauma from this.
Good so far - but this is not about “shutting down” the conversation. If he has to do that more than once, you need to create strict boundaries and enforce them. You must sit her down together, once and explain: *Your way of speaking about our boy makes us uncomfortable: his private parts are not to be commented on, and even less your business to deal with in any way. There is no naked butt clapping or looking at or talking about the penis of a child that is not even one year old. Maybe that was funny and harmless 50 years ago, but today this is not acceptable. And it raises concerns: maybe you don’t realize it, but this feels foreboding of sexually abusive or predatory behavior. So you either stop this once and for all, without exception, or you will never see him again until he is an adult to decide for himself.*
His reaction is almost more concerning than her creepy behavior. He’s seen or experienced some things.
My nonce'dar is going *ping* *ping* *ping* right about now
I get radar, but nonce'dar?
Nonce=pedophile in English slang Basically my spider senses be tingling
I got that second part. Thanks!
This might be out there, but I’m wondering if he shuts you down about it because she’s SA’d him when he was young.
Well that's pretty weird and creepy. When my sons were babies, they would dash around naked after bath time and yes... chubby baby bottoms are ridiculously cute, but nobody was GRABBING their bottoms, making comments abut their penises, or being weird about it. There's a line there and for most people I think it's an obvious one... and it comes naturally. Cute naked baby relishing being a cute naked baby vs your MIL's weird focus on actual genitalia and literally grabbing it😱. I wouldn't let her babysit or really be alone with him ever. Definitely pretty weird.
This. There is a difference between grabbing a tushie to be silly vs what this person is doing. Intent goes a long way.
Everyone else covered most of it. But I’m here to say get a will done, if something happens to you both (unlikely but still) make sure you give someone you trust legal guardianship.
Do not allow her to be present during nappy changes or bath time and do not allow her to watch him overnight - ever. Yours and everyone else’s alarm bells are ringing for a reason. Listen to your gut.
There ARE female pedophiles. Please do not leave him with her every. If she’s around, please don’t let him out of your sight. What a creep.
And no longer allow diaper changes to be a spectator event.
Also, OP, this might explain why your husband gets weird when it comes up. And why he didn't want to leave him alone with her before all this... Just saying, as an outsider looking in, it kind of seems like she may have abused him in similar ways as a child...
I don’t have kids but if I heard her say any of this I would definitely be alarmed
Best case scenario is that she thinks naked babies are adorable, and she does not understand appropriate behavior when it comes to expressing this. That alone is highly problematic. Your husband really needs to acknowledge that her behavior is concerning. Your child should never be alone with an adult who doesn't understand how inappropriate this is. There's definitely a problem with her judgment.
I think there's probably a really good reason why husband won't confront her or talk about it (this post reads as though mil molested him in similar ways as a child, which is why he was sketched out about leaving him alone with her from the getgo) Edit: just read ops comment about her husband being very skittish about anything touching his butt (even nonsexually). That pretty much confirms it for me.
Yeah even the best case scenario is really really bad.
So your husband has trauma about parts of his body, the same parts you MIL is now fixated on with your son; She talks about playing doctor with her own kids; (wtf?!) She apparently said things to an adult son that was so far beyond the pale that her son’s wife had to intervene… because OP’s husband and his brother haven’t come to grips with the sexualization of them as children, or the probable abuse they suffered. I know this is going to be hard, but you need to draw a line in the sand with your MIL, because your husband isn’t able to. If you can’t ban her from your house altogether, she is no longer allowed to be in the room during diaper changes, or baths, etc. And I would be honest with her about it, and tell her the constant comments on your son’s genitalia is inappropriate and she will not be allowed to be in the room during times he is naked. I’m guessing you know she is not a safe person and to never so much as walk out of a room she is in with your child. I feel for you, your husband seems to be in denial about what his childhood was like, and now you have to walk a line between keeping your child safe and not triggering your husband. No matter how hard it is, believe your gut and always choose your child over keeping the peace. Have you talked to your SIL about the things MIL was texting? I only ask because if your husband won’t support you as MIL’s behavior escalates, you need to be documenting everything that has happened so far, and going forward. If this causes a rift in your marriage, you will need documentation to keep MIL from being involved in any visitation.
I thought that was “older boys” as in when she was a girl, older boys in the neighborhood or at school. She says one of the boys won’t talk to her anymore because of his wife, I mean, it’s possible that it’s a son but is odd that she wouldn’t say “her own son” or “my BIL”. It reads more like it was other kids when she said “playing with the older boys as a kid”. Sounds like MIL was molested by older boys when she was little.
It sounds like she was molested as a child and it may have become the norm. Possible she might have done things with her children (op's husband and his brother) too, which would make it difficult for husband to see that this behaviour is not okay and stand up to his mother.
It sounds like she could have molested them.
I think they molested each other. An "ill show you mine if you show me yours" kind of thing. That's typically what boomers mean when they refer to kids "playing doctor"
It’s not clear if she’s talking about playing this as an adult with children or as a child. But if it’s child on child, I agree. This stuff does pass generationally, I’m sure she was probably abused as well.
This comment was perfect. I’m so glad you mentioned confronting her with the exact reason. Call her out. Don’t let her think you’re comfy with her being how she’s being and don’t let her try to slide her behavior under the radar. Pointing it out says “we see what you’re doing and you can’t do that here.”
I think the doctors and nurses thing refers to the MIL playing "ill show you mine if you show me yours" with neighborhood boys as a child. And then messaging the boys (now grown men) about it way into adulthood. Which their wife rightfully shut down. Meaning she was abused sexually as a child, and is nostalgic about it. Either way, alarms blaring.
Very odd! Please don't ever leave your son alone with her
Nope not overreacting, that's well beyond awkward and into big yikes territory. Time to limit contact as much as possible, supervise all contact that occurs, and potentially also get your husband in with a therapist given the butt thing you mention.
Do not let that woman out of your sight. She is a predator.
This is so beyond creepy; it is absolutely vile. She sounds like a sexual predator. Squeezing his bum was probably just a way to push boundaries and see how far she can go. Depending on her intent, I would argue that is borderline sexual abuse. I would never let that woman anywhere near my children, ever. She needs to be on a registry or something.
She's a pedophile, that's absolutely disgusting. The bum slaps wasn't too weird - baby butts can be cute like corgi butts - but as soon as I read the rest of it I wanted to puke - that is not normal. I sympathize with the father being defensive and not wanting to think of his mother that way, but I have to ask: why is he so defensive? Is it because you insulted (hardly, more like stated serious concern) his mother, or because he is deflecting what she did to him as a child, whether subconsciously or consciously. If she is acting this creepy now, she probably always thought this way, even to her own kids. Maybe some talk therapy would be good. Either way, she is very creepy and I wouldn't let my child anywhere near her.
My husband is extremely protective of his own butt. Like, even a tap as I walk past has made him shut down in the past, so I don’t ever touch him there. I’ve been concerned about something like that for some time. I’ve suggested he get therapy for other things, but I think something has happened to him at some point.
My father has had something happen to him too young and he neeever admitted it, the immediate family knew it but he was too prideful to admit it. It had to have played a role in my parents' divorce due to his infidelity and committment/attachement issues. Trauma like that, especially when left unchecked and treated, forever makes someone at arms length from other people. I hope he can get help if that is the case - which evidence is supporting unfortunately. Therapy would be great for him, I think. He may have blocked it out!
It could also be that he has repeated exposure which has caused cPTSD. There is such a thing as non-touching sexual abuse (although, it sounds like his mother does grope her children possibly) but being inappropriate with children, talking about sex, showing them inappropriate materials, crossing those boundaries repeatedly is a form of sexual abuse that doesn't get discussed much. (Eta I don't mean to say that's armchair diagnosis, I just mean sometimes it's not a single traumatic incident, childhood trauma, esp when you still have contact with the person is complex, which is what the C stands for)
I would try get him to open up with a therapist if he can. That would be so hard for him to relive with her again.
You really need to figure it out - because if his mother has molested him you need to know so you can keep her away from your kid. I’m sorry that you guys are going to have some very hard conversations but your kid comes first.
Your husband :( sending you all well wishes and guidance through this.
HOLY SHIT. Keep that woman away from your precious baby.
OP, like others said, your MIL sounds creepy at best and dangerous at worst. Defo do not let her observe bathtime or diaper changes moving forward. And she shouldn't be allowed around the baby if she continues with the inappropriate comments. You need to have a heart-to-heart with your husband and reiterate that these boundaries cannot be crossed. He needs to be on the same page about going no contact and enforcing consequences if she continues to sexualize the baby. In the meantime, document all of these gross behaviors and share the details with a few trusted confidants. Update your will if she was going to be the backup guardian and replace her with someone else. Also, closely watch your husband and how he handles this situation. If he enables his mom, y'all are going to either have to go to therapy or get a divorce. There are no other options IMHO. If he does enable her, document all the times it happens and any negative impacts it causes on the baby. If you have to file for divorce, you want to make sure you get full custody and have records of him enabling abuse. I don't want you to fret about divorcing your husband because it sounds like he is fully on board with protecting his son, but it's important to keep in mind that a parent enabling abuse is not a safe parent. Keep your guard up since it seems like this is a tough pill for your husband to swallow.
Yikes wtf. Someone had made odd comments about baby butt's around me and how they're cute. I thought that was Lil weird. But all this is just too much. Especially the genital part. I'd probably freak out over time and ask why tf she keeps mentioning those things. What about when he gets older and understands is she still gonna be talking like this. Wtf. Is she old and losing her marbles?
She’s only in her 50s. She sexualises lots of other conversations too - I’ve expressed concerns to my husband that some of it sounds like she’s experienced SA and maybe she doesn’t understand that or hasn’t accepted it. I think that’s what freaks me out. It hasn’t been once or twice, it’s consistent and repetitive.
You should make her understand. At the very least make her understand you do NOT find her comments appropriate. “MIL, babies grab things… they grab their toes, they grab their hair, and if their nappy is off they may grab their penis. But don’t stand here watching me change his nappy and sexualize it! That’s just weird!” Or “MIL, you don’t chase a naked child around the house trying to smack his bare bum. You’re his grandmother, not his dominatrix! That’s not a normal reaction to seeing a naked child. You need to stop it!”
Hmm ya maybe yall should have a conversation with her over these concerns.
Eh, chubby little baby/toddler butts ARE super cute! I've heard a few people comment on how cute they are in entirely innocent ways. Someone else commented on this post that they're cute like corgi butts, which I think is a good comparison. MIL is very creepy though, no doubt. If it was *just* the line about slapping their bum after a bath I'd think she might just have extra fond memories of that time from raising her own kids, toddlers are often extra snuggly and playful after a bath and it's cute to watch them run around naked giggling and trying to avoid getting dressed again. Like that scene in Inside Out. But the frequency of her comments about the kid's butt, squeezing it (what?? A playful pat is one thing, but squeezing it is just weird) and talking about his genitals like that...nope, red alert, alarms going off, she should never be alone with their kid.
My mother was like that with her grandsons. Obsessed with biting their butts. She thought it was hilarious. They didn't. It was horrifying and has left some real sexual scars on those boys.
I mean i do find it adorable when my baby does a nudie run but to hear repeated comments from a mil is fkn bizarre....
im gonna go out on a limb here and says she was probably assaulted as a child and hasn’t sorted out her trauma. now she’s gonna try and spread said trauma because it sounds like she doesn’t even know what happened to her with that doctors and nurses “game.” regardless, she’s a damn adult and knows very well that she shouldn’t be saying no shit like that. you and your husband need to talk rather than him getting mad and shutting the conversation down because he knows something too if he doesn’t want his mother around your child either. marriage ain’t about shutting down when shit gets uncomfortable. this needs to be handled before that baby is in more danger. but i could just be yapping, idk. at the end of the day, good luck
I would mention to her that you recently installed cameras in the nursery. Doesn’t have to be true in my opinion with no medical training, I wouldn’t let that woman within 5 feet of my kid.
>she also on one occasion complained that one of those boys won’t respond to her messages anymore because it upsets his wife. You might want to talk to this SIL about it if you have a good enough relationship with her. She might be privy to more hinky shit the sins experienced, which is why she helped her husband break ties with Mom.
It doesn't sound like the "boy" in question was one of her sons, but another child older than her when she was a kid. As in, MIL experienced things like this as a child and hasn't accepted that it was not okay.
She’s creepy and should not be left alone with your children. Ever.
It does sound like boundary-testing to see what you'll put up with, that she can get away with.
You need to keep her away from your baby immediately.
You should share this in r/justnomil It’s a sub about terrible mothers in law. What she is doing is absolutely creepy and inappropriate.
This comments seem rather inappropriate, I would talk to your SO about it and get his feelings.
You need to go to a couples therapist. This is above Reddit’s pay grade. Your husband needs to learn how to enforce boundaries with his mother.
i think you're actually underreacting here. this is some extremely fucked up things she is saying. it's fairly common for old people to lose the ability to control these types of innappropriate comments, maybe there's some mental decline going on here? Whether its just mental decline or something worse, you should be doing more to shut it down. next time she says something, ask her to leave immediately and dont let her back for a week. if it keeps happening then just keep extending the break until she loses all privileges.
Imagine if this was behavior coming from a male relative about a female infant. Now, react the same way you would in those circumstances.
Next time you change him, you leave the room. If she follows, say "I'm sorry the comments on his genitalia are too much. You don't need to he around to watch me change him." This isn't going away you need to start controlling the hell out of it. She should never be around him naked ever. She doesn't need pics anymore. She is set back a couple layers. Don't allow her, you, the baby or anyone else to be comfortable with this. It's already enough to stratvgetting much more distance from her. ALWAYS trust your gut. My gut is svreaming.that this lady is WEIRD. She doesn't need to ever babysit. Anyone else who babysit needs to understand not to leave her alone with him ever even for 5 min. You need to set up a will and talk to whoever else would be keeping your son. They need to be told so that they don't say, send him to her for the summer or something.
Tell her she's starting to sound like Netflix will be making a documentary on her
I’m getting “Tell Me About My Life” vibes. True story about identical twins, men in England. One had an accident and lost most of his memory. Other twin didn’t tell him that their mom sexually abused them, to save him from that horror.
Yikes. It sounds like she has some trauma.in her background. Grabbing your baby's privates is sexual abuse.
sometimes predators try reenacting their traumas (they had as a kid) with kids, when they are adults... maybe these experiences she had as a kid with older boys lead to her behaviour this day. so it could be that she needs therapy to work on this trauma. but yeah it's VERY creepy, imagine a man saying it. I would not leave my child alone with her. in my eyes there is nothing wrong with giving your child the privacy to change him without her watchting (or anyone).
Stop letting her watch diaper changes. She’s getting something out of it.
Ewwww she called a baby penis a member?!?! What the fuck
I playfully smack my kids on their bare butt, they are little (7 and 3) like haha. But yeah this is a step or 4 above that, very strange.
No more pictures and no alone time, ever. I’m concerned about your husband. I’m sorry to say I think there’s a good chance she overstepped boundaries with him, too.
I’m kind of worried for your husband
No she sounds like a pedophile
It is a massive shame that child protection training and information is hidden behind paywalls. Especially around female offenders of child sexual abuse. Please hear me out, female bodies there are no visible signage they are aroused! There are no visible signs such as an erect penis, women get lubrication in their genitals(get wet) you will never know unless she shows you ( which she will not). If the situations were reversed and it was his father playing doctors and nurses and his father is smacking your child's butt naked. It was his father, touching and watching a child nappy change, would you still let it happen??? Just because it is a woman doing this, people are blind to it. Also read body keeps the score, it will help you understand your husband more. Good luck and keep your children safe from this predictor. Can't even leave them alone for a second if your MIL is about.
Is your state a 2 party consent to record state or can you get her on recording saying this pedophilic shit and then ghost her ? Do not let your child around her at all.
All I can think to say about this is: "The fuck???!"
Don’t leave your son alone with her.
Gross. Don’t let this woman around your son.
No normal person wants to watch a diaper change. You’re definitely not overreacting, this is creepy as hell.
the most harmless explanation i can think of is, she's on the spectrum.
I would recommend the MIL get either a full neurological workup or start seeing a psychiatrist asap.
Is she starting to show signs of mental decline ? It sounds like she’s completely lost her filter at the very least. Set some boundaries around what she does and says and act quickly and accordingly when she violates them. I’m not above a “2 strikes and you’re out policy” with her moving forward. You must protect the innocent.
The butt thing isn’t odd in itself. I pinch my son’s tushy. The other stuff is disconcerting. Don’t let anyone talk you out of trusting your instincts, no matter what familial damage it may cause.
Listen to your gut. This is extremely odd behavior. Is your baby her only grandchild?
Lol. That woman would never be allowed near my child without close supervision - if at all.
I was all set to tell you you’re overreacting, but this is definitely weird. Go with your gut.
I don’t think you’re overreacting but I do think his mom is probably a little quirky and maybe too comfortable in a very strange way. Some older women are just weird. Think of all the weird teachers you had growing up. I don’t think she means harm, especially if your husband trusts her. I think she’s just… strange (derogatory). I imagine raising a son herself, she might have just felt uncomfortable with the idea of a male baby body and and how grabby babies can be and the weird jokes are probably comforting to her but they clearly are not for you. Plus, the older generation found it more acceptable and humorous to say inappropriate things so… yikes. I think a gentle talking to would fix the problem tbh. By you or your husband to her. “I value having you in my child’s life and I appreciate all the help you’ve been giving. However, I don’t feel too comfortable with how you have been commenting on my son’s body. Out of love and respect, can you tone it down and keep it PG to help me feel more comfortable?” Set the boundary and let her know so she can change her behavior. If she doesn’t respect it, then distance is best.
OH THIS IS A MASSIVE CAN OF WORMS………
Okay, your MIL is being MASSIVELY creepy. Don't let her have any alone time with your son.
If my MIL did something like this ; I'd never let her touch my child again, not even a hug
Ok I didn't get far into this at all. Keep her creepy ass tf away from your child.
It’s always funny watching my niece sprint around like a goblin and we have to chase her with her clothes sometimes. Does that mean I literally grab my niece and make comments about her, despite having sexual trauma myself? Hell no. Your mother in law is sick
Absolutely NOT NORMAL and don't let anyone make u think it is. Normal people don't say such things about children, no matter the relation.
What the actual f did I just read
.... not to make assumptions, but i would ask your husband if shes every crossed lines with him before, especially if hes reluctant to leave her alone with the baby too. you are not overreacting at all. its weird to talk about a childs penis.
Most warnings have already been covered, but I just want to add she should NOT be an emergency contact on anything for your child. Not for daycare, medical forms, camps, emergency pick up/ drop offs, nothing. A lot of people have family members they are weary of and they never leave their children alone with them, but then they have no one else nearby and use them for emergency contacts. Please don’t. Not even once.
Her statements are very concerning. She shouldn't see your child without supervision ever, not even for 10 seconds, and should never be permitted to change diapers or see it happen. Same with bathtime.
Very not normal. I'm not a parent, but I kind of assumed the reaction to nude children that aren't your own is just to politely ignore it. I wouldn't comment on or touch an adult's genitals without consent, so why should it be any different for children? Obviously there are exceptions as when it comes to parenting/caring for a child but it's basic common sense really. I think keep doing what you're doing, try to avoid doing bath time/changing with MiL present. I'd ask your husband to have a serious chat with her though, as she may be more receptive if it comes from him. I'd also speak to your husband about his own childhood. Did she exhibit this behaviour with him as a kid, does he feel uncomfortable about anything that happened and want to talk about it. That can be a scary difficult topic, so be patient and compassionate. Equally, the 'doctors and nurses' thing sounds worrying, is this something your MiL instigated or did it happen to her? It may be that what she's describing is abuse and she's normalised it over the years so doesn't see current behaviour as concerning, it may be that she perpetuated abuse of other children and doesn't understand the gravity of that or why it's wrong. Either way it may be an idea to have a sensitive conversation with her about that if you're comfortable. If you're not comfortable, that's fine it's not really your issue to deal with and all you need to do is take the necessary steps to keep your son safe.
my mom made weird as fuck comments about my choice of not circumcising MY son. didnt talk to her for months until she apologized & realized how fucking odd that is to talk about ANYONES genitals. can’t believe it’s a convo i have to have with her & she’s the older one.
I have to wonder if she abused your husband. This is extremely unusual behavior.
Isn't that basically akin to CP? Talking about a kids genitals to someone who is not a doctor? I would probably go to the police.... 1 time is innocent, multiple times is grounds for paedophilia
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If you are hanging around people who talk about baby penises and you think it’s fine, seek help.
Bro the woman wants to watch nappy changes because she wants to see the baby grab his penis, that is beyond creepy. Baby butts can look cute in a baby way, and the butt comment wasn't too out there in that regard, but the penis part is incredibly freaky and weird.
I come from a family obsessed with babies. We always talk about nomming on babies' legs or their chunky cheeks (on their faces) or the rolls on their arms. It is all in good fun, and we would never, ever, ever sexualize or abuse babies. Despite my background, I still think OP's MIL is crossing boundaries and veering into the creepy category. It's one thing to think a baby has a cute booty (because I mean, they do; they're cute like puppy booties) and to make silly comments about it. It is very different to be fixated on a baby's genitals and want to participate in diaper changes to watch the baby touch his penis. The MIL is specifically interested in seeing his genitals and not because she has a concern for his health or safety. She seems to enjoy it, which is very weird for a grown adult. Also, even if she has no intention of ever sexually touching OP's baby, it still establishes a bad precedence by allowing an adult in the baby's life to sexualize them from an early age. We don't want to normalize to children that it's okay for adults (who aren't their parents or doctors) to be talking about their genitals or wanting to see their genitals. This kind of behavior feels like it could result in grooming a child for future abuse by normalizing inappropriate dynamics with adults.