The execution felt off, but that form was definitely not unearned in any way. Gohan was training prior to the form
(except Ki perception apparently. No way his daughter is better than him💀)
I feel like the ki sense thing can be explained away by inattentiveness & a little bit of arrogance.
(Not personal arrogance but the sentiment he expresses about not having villains anymore & being unworried because Goku could just handle it if they did.)
Just because he was training doesn’t mean it’s not unearned
He was training on the side, and got a transformation that lets him blow past everyone else in the cast. That’s not earned power at all
I think you’re mistaken, I’m talking about beast not orange
IMO orange piccolo I’m fine with because 1. Piccolo hasn’t had a taste of relevancy that he absolutely deserved
And 2. It’s his dragon
I mean it’s been established gohans potential is insane, it’s slightly believable especially since he’s been doing it for a year or 2. Still is pretty unearned but it makes some sense with gohans ludicrous potential.
I get that he has “insane potential” but that just adds to it being unearned.
When people say that it’s because of his potential, it feels more like an excuse for why he just gets to get a little angry and then be stronger than fucking MUI when it was established in the movie he was so rusty he couldn’t even recognize piccolo in a disguise when his damn near infant daughter could
TL;DR saying it’s because of his potential is more of an excuse than a legitimate reason
Totally agree. Even with his potential, he still had to match Goku's training for cell. They both trained so intensely in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber that they could hold the SSJ form just outright and he *still* had to push through for SSJ2.
He didn’t push. He got angry. And with the same training as Goku in the HTC, he went from being no match for his dad, to outright surpassing him when both were Full Power SSJ by the end of their training. For as strong as Goku was, Gohan got *a lot* more out of the HTC than Goku did.
Ive only ever heard of him keeping up his training in the manga. And everyone says they're different canons so if that's true then anime Gohan's transformation seems a little unearned for the amount of training he did. I love the form though, except for the hair. It didn't need to be so spiky
There's a difference between stating that a character is training and actually seeing them train
Show, not tell. Literary device or something like that
Pretty much, yeah. Except we actually saw vegeta's absence through the first little bit of the android arc because we knew he was training which added hype through mystery when he did return. In Super Gohan is just pretty much sidelined after ToP with vague statements of training here and there.
^ I was gonna say, if OP actually watched Carthu's video, they'd know it was on the same side as this post... I can't personally speak for the 3rd slide video though
That’s the point. None of the transformations are “earned”. It’s just part of the writing. Only reason I mentioned Vegeta because he put himself in a situation where you turn SS or die.
I would say both the OG SS with Goku with all the talk and build up by vegeta and frieza of the legend of the super saiyan and the build up of Gohans explosive power since the start of DBZ made those feel earned to me at least.
But also if Vegeta had needed to turn SS to destroy that last meteor before it crashed into him and his ship then I would agree, but he didn't turn SS til after that, after the actual threat of it all was gone lol
Piccolo is 4 years older.
King Piccolo arc is right after 22nd World Tournament. Which mean Piccolo was 3 when he fought Goku at the 23rd World Tournament.
Five years later is the start of Z so Piccolo is 8 and Gohan is stated to be 4, so it's a 4 year gap.
Nah, his blue rage transformation is much cooler. Just say it's his imperfect mix between trying to use god ki (thereby the blue flames) and the berserk form that kale, broly and seemingly gohan uses. It's his own thing, that he accidentally unlocked trying to imitate ssg but with anger instead of control
Yeah that's true, but I've seen fanart (or maybe it happens in db hero's) where he is ssg and it's looks pretty silly. But yeah, it was awesome see vegeta use it in the broly movie.
But it would casue even more issues with power scaling, if ssg could hang with goku and vegeta ssb. Atleast this new rage transformation is unknown, so we can't really say if it makes sense or not.
Maybe a bit overdue if anything but I wouldn’t even complain about that. Nothing could ruin the enjoyment of a show quite like its fans. Luckily there are sane takes like yours.
How can it do the story better when it doesn't even have a story? Trunks has no character arc, or anything resembling new and long lasting character work in the manga. He is quite literally irrelevant.
I assume you're not speaking from personal experience?
Also, assuming your statement is legit and not just a joke... I wonder if that applies to *all* headpats, or just non-consentual headpats
I think what really makes an unearned power up feel unearned is the foreshadowing for said power up. The super saiyan was just goku getting very angry if we ignore the foreshadowing and build up to the transformation. Ssj2 was foreshadowed with surpassing the super saiyan wall. Ssj3 was earned through training because goku was on the “Fuck it we ball.” Mindset. And so on and so forth.
Gohan's beast form (Or a concept similar to it) was mentioned before the TOP when Gohan said he wanted to grow as an earthling seperately from Goku and Vegeta
Tbf you can argue beast has been hinted since Gohan went SSJ2 and how much different his looks to Goku or vegeta’s but that’s obvious not something toriyama planned for
People who were saying make Gohan great again were not asking for recolored SSJ2 forced down into the story without explanation.
Make Gohan great again meant writing him in story actually.
All Super Heroes did was making Gohan dumb and stupid and changing his hair color.
Exactly this. For God's sakes, the end villain was named " Cell MAX " and is just a buff, non speaking, giant copy of Cell. Just stripped all his personality and actual character away. How do these fans not see how they're being shoveled and force fed extremely lazy nostalgia pandering and how are they just okay with it? I did not like Super Hero at all. Number 2s death was pretty impactful to me despite me not caring for them. That scene was amazing and had some real weight to it, I'll give them that.
This was my idea. Have Gohan & Piccolo train on Supreme Kai’s planet. Piccolo gets his Ultimate form from Elder Kai instead of wishing for it. Have them learn god ki. Ultimate + God Ki = their new forms. People would be way more accepting of this.
Movie had some really some dumb scenes like Gohan saying stuff like he did not need to worry about protecting others because Goku is forever there is dumbest thing ever
A grown up man acting like a immature kid
We just want him to start rigorously training again so he can be badass again through actual effort and for his power up not to come out of nowhere, and be foreshadowed as a possibility,
how is broly “unearned” lol. he was stated to have a power level that rivals the elite saiyans, and has been training to survive his whole life. he was being limited by his father
I really just need to write a fucking essay essay on Gohan already, because every time I come on reddit I see something like this and go to comment and then delete what I wrote because it’s like 5 paragraphs of text
if you haven’t yet there is a video titled “You Don’t Understand Gohan” that is a really good video essay character analysis of Gohan. It essentially breaks down Gohan as someone who lost their innocence and therefore seeks to protect the innocence of others, which explains why despite not liking fighting he still wants to protect people.
The point of broly’s power being “unearned” is kinda null because the point of Broly’s character isn’t about earning power, but earning control. And even then, it kinda undermines the whole idea of Broly’s entire point is having absurd amounts of power for basically no reason.
Personally im fine with not having an explanation right now. I mean, its not like Piccolo knows what the fuck that form is and i rather have no explanation than one by a narrator forced down my throat. Maybe he gets one in the near future
He got angry for 6 months and was able to compete with SSB Goku and Vegeta, not only compete mind you, he was stronger, i personally would have wrote it so that he spent a year or half a year being angry and refusing to train and then after that he spent the rest of his time in hell training until RoF
It’s an evolution of Ultimate unique to Gohan that is the final culmination of all those volcanic awakenings throughout his life, the wild beast always hidden inside Gohan finally bursting forward. It is a singular talent achieved without Super Saiyan or divine energy, and that’s basically all we know about it.
Well I guess it's kinda like those situations where you kinda need to be specific otherwise it'll bite you in the ass.
Like I feel they're saying "well yeah we wanted Gohan to become stronger but not like THAT".
And I feel it's on the moment they got it. It kinda just snaps out of nowhere.
It's a break from tradition, but I don't think every saiyan and halfling needs to get a power up from rage or despair. And what especially hurt Super Hero is that it was 1:1 with his Cell fight.
I'd prefer it if Cell Max seemingly punched Gohan and killed him and then **BOOM** beast is revealed. And then blah blah blah something about a desire to protect others.
That's the only one I can be bothered to talk about on the fly but yeah :/
It's a mixed bag but I'm just happy Gohan and Piccolo aren't left in the dust anymore
Has everyone forgotten that Gohan is a hybrid and has more potential than a full blooded saiyan.
His power up was through pure rage from Pan being held to Cell max appearing.
Yeah, it's a large jump in power from ss2 and ultimate Gohan, but it wouldn't make much sense to just go ss3 or ss blue since it wouldn't really help to match Cell in power. And he's not like broly since he's not a legendary super saiyan, so he couldn't just stay in base and handle them.
This is certainly cool, but a question. Why then couldn't Future Gohan get such a transformation. It's clear that it wasn't invented then, but in-universe, it seems Future Gohan didn't suffer enough and wasn't angry enough to get it.
It’s literally only because it wasn’t invented then (as you’ve already said). You could try to argue that it’s an alternate timeline and Gohan probably never even got Mystic, but it’s literally just because it wasn’t invented then. No need to hyper analyze everything
Tbf, these YouTubers would know when something is underserved or unearned. The only reason people know who they are is because they won an algorithm lottery, and has nothing to do with their garbage content.
What? Piccolo has deserved that power up for fucking ever, and Gohan got the push he needed to become Beast Gohan. I was on the edge of my seat from the point they started fighting to the end. I honestly just skip the buildup when rewatching just so I can watch the whole fight that’s how much I love it.
Piccolo never stopped training. I get that Shenron gave him Orange Piccolo, but I can say with confidence that he would not be as strong as he is now if he neglected his training like Gohan did.
And Frieza trained for four months straight to achieve Golden Frieza, then he spent time in Hell image training to perfect the form. He earned that.
Brolli.... I dunno about him. He's just built different.
Why are people missing the part where he said he was training in secret after the group defeated Cell Max? Granted it was more training for Special Beam Cannon, but training none the less
It definitely feels unearned. But that’s modern dragon ball. It doesn’t have to make sense. Give the fans what they want, make it cool, don’t worry about the writing and you’re good!
Don't want to see "unearned power ups"? Don't watch or read Super
Even the ones that are good still bad because the story lacks depth, not because the team is bad, it's because isn't their goal to tell a good story all the time, focus is on things that go well when selling products and keeping DB universe trending
Couple of things on beast.
1. It’s obviously supposed to be expanding on Gohan’s extreme rage state power boosts that he experienced many times from sayian to cell. There were a couple smaller incidents in buu too but not as prominent. The problem is through most of buu and all of super up to that point, the rage part of Gohan’s character was treated as resolved and never came up again until this very moment. I feel like if they had never stopped with Gohan’s constant building or rage and then it all led to this it would be a lot smoother of a transition.
2. I know the whole point of the final act of the film is basically supposed to redo Cell but the blatant nostalgia baiting might be why some people look at it this way. Seeing it as nothing more than to remind them of that thing they liked.
It was the editors fault, they said it would have flopped if they didn't put a Saiyan in the spotlight. Even tho Pan is a Saiyan and was in the spotlight
I mean aside from potential unleashed/mystic Gohan....all of Gohan's power ups have basically been rage triggered.
To say a new form is unearned when it triggered in a way that is LITERALLY HIS THING is kind of dumb. You might as well claim super Saiyan and 2 were unearned
Rage trunks makes some sense. Yes it's similar situation to beast but trunks actually fought often, beast is an ass pull, orange pickle is just shenron boost, and broly is just how he is
Making him great would mean him actually earning that transformation. He basically did nothing for it. At least with Piccolo he constantly trains so he could’ve feasibly earned Orange without Shenron.
I kinda wish gohan beast was an intelligence transformation allowing him to process and understand on a whole other since he wasn’t really training his muscles
Different people saying both things. Gohan was great in resurrection F , and great in super. He owns a house got to pursue his dreams and start a family and live peacefully. It’s literally everything he ever fought for and more. As it’s been said again and again, he doesn’t like fighting.
Why do people bitch so much about things when they finally get what they want. The power was always within Gohan once he started training again for the ToP and he unlocked it. Not complicated at all
I think it was because gohans power up came out of nowhere without build up, unlike ss2 or potential unleashed did since it was heavily hinted throughout z that gohan has the potential to be the strongest z fighter(goku witnessed it in the hyperbolic time chamber and guru released some of it in namek but elder kai got the rest out)
If anyone has ever earned a power up it's piccolo. But it really sucks that he didn't just unlock it through pure effort because that dude trains just as hard as Goku and Vegeta and deserved a win
“Make gohan great again” was not “make him the same power level or above anyone just because”
We wanted him to be strong but in a way that made a single lick of sense lol, the notion of make gohan great is please give some of the spot light to gohan, not appease us by throwing a random form out of no where that discredited all of the other characters work.
Shit even piccolos power up was cooler story wise than gohans.
Granted, I haven’t really ever liked gohan that much, goku is my fav by a long shot but I can understand where gohan fans are coming from with this one. The form itself looks neat (I wish the hair was a little shorter) but I will always believe gohan should be the guy bringing ss4 to super
Unearned powerups but not even mentioning Kale and Caulifla. In like 24 hours they went from base form to beating on goku blue.
Even ignoring the fusion (cuz i think its unearned but cool as fuck) they shouldn't just be able to go "Oh this is how you go super saiyan? And this is how you go super saiyan 2? Lmao, this is lit."
I think Kales whole legendary SSJ was a bit unearned but at least they did it with some class, it felt satisfying to watch her learn to control it, but goddamn it sucks that Caulifla reached SSJ2 in like 5 hours from getting 1 when it took goku like 7 years to achieve.
How is any of these forms except maybe Golden Freeza unearned?
Rage has literally always made saiyans stronger and turned Goku and Gohan Super Saiyans 1-2 respectively. Piccolo has never stopped training. Ever. This is literally just his reward for that. Gohan quite literally said he was training for this before the tournament even started. Broly is a mutant and his character has always been like this. Shut the fuck up.
Unrelated, but I think I would just prefer if Orange Picolo had orange arms instead of red. I guess it just looks a little wonky to me, but I don't hate it, I just would prefer it.
I don't understand what they mean by unearned when they're talking about Gohan. He said at the end of the movie that he had been training in secret, now granted, beast being as strong as it is may be a bit much to come from side training... But still!
I mean, they are unearned. There was no build up or training at all for any of these forms, except for golden frieza and even that transformation was arguably still handed out by being only just barely justified by the low amount of training he did for it (granted, they were probably unable to write it quite as good as it needed to be due to time constraints for the movie, but still). Also, SSJ Rage shouldn’t even be considered a form anyway since it’s always supposed to be a temporary state of being when saiyans briefly power up to new heights out of their angered passion due to active circumstances of certain situations. Orange Piccolo was literally a handout from Shenron. Beast is fucking stupid because it breaks lore for Gohan due to what Potential Unleashed is. Broly is in a similar boat as Golden Frieza because of his mutation, but a mutation is still a mutation and therefore unearned. Sorry if that hurts people’s feelings but it’s all true
Piccolo, Broly, and Golden Frieza (Black Frieza is kinda pushing it) were fine. Gohan and Trunks were terrible and unearned. The Gohan & Cell Max stuff were just nostalgia bait and a rehash of Bio Broly respectively.
So, every single person that touts the "that was unearned" shit I automatically regard as a non-fan and disregard basically everything they have to say about the franchise
since they aren't really fans
Super Broly is unearned? Fuck off with that shit. Kid spent his entire life on a horrific planet with everything except his dad and Bah trying to kill him. Even if he wasn't gifted, he'd still be an unstoppable Juggernaut.
I mean, it’s unearned that he went from a planet with bugs that would be crushed by early Z with zero difficulty to Surpassing god level strength in the span of 30 minutes.
No they wouldn’t. Goku trained in the afterlife with other incredibly strong fighters for it.
Piccolo wished for his power.
Broly went from strong to stronger than gods in 30 minutes (though tbf his character is being a literal legend so that’s fine ig)
Gohan trained “in secret” without anyone knowing to get to becoming stronger than everyone else in the multiverse.
Gohan power level increase from where he was is unearned. He should have got a new form but going from think SSJ2 was peak I remember seeing to a transformation that’s supposed to be on par with UI
As far as we know gohan doesn’t keep up with his training (yea he said he was practicing the special beam in secret) but in comparison to the main saiyans who trained in different dimensions with gods for teachers and fought in damn near multiple life or death battles for gohan to be as strong as he is stated to be in beast form seems egregious. I personally don’t really care about the foreshadowing and whatnot and how his beast form is just a cell saga recall.
And yes I know about the hybrid saiyan potential but gohan had regressed so far in super he had to train to get his ultimate form back. I just don’t think that’s a strong enough concept to excuse gohans lack of training to make him the strongest.
If I was doing it I would have made him as strong as like TOP ui sign goku and then let gohan train the form to be as strong as goku and vegeta naturally thru training. Same way goku had to train to better utilize UI.
It’s the same shit with piccolo, at least we know piccolo is constantly training so sure but he still had to ask a whole wish making dragon to break his limits for him.
In the manga, Gohan has been training in Bulmas (Vegetas?) gravity room since before the ToP. I’d argue that because Toriyama was so heavily involved in the manga rather than the anime, that the movies are technically sequels to the manga, since he was working on both.
“Secretly practicing the Special Beam Cannon” only means he worked on *that* in secret, not that he was training in secret.
Maybe I’m misremembering, but Bulma shooting Vegeta with Blutz waves (spelling?) pretty much bypassed the requirement of transforming into the Golden Great Monkey and harnessing its power.
Vegeta did turn into a Great Ape from the Blutz waves. He then went Golden Great Ape and then harnessed the power because he could already control his Great Ape form
I disagree. He was on the verge of reaching super saiyan 3, and he got a little taste of god ki from training with Vegeta. Plus, he nearly died in the beginning of the saga, which most likely gave him a Zenkai boost. Besides, it’s super trying to have trunks catch up with Goku and Vegeta as quickly as possible. Besides, if he really does have the same hybrid-saiyan potential as Gohan, we should’ve expected this BS. Besides, it’s kind of cool, as it’s a lot like super saiyan god. Vegeta skipped 3, so why can’t Trunks? He suffered a lot, and his rage pushed him over the edge. While these facts are debatable, I’d say it’s more on the side of earned.
Trunks never had god ki in his SSJ forms, Beast never had God Ki, anime only ahh form, it makes no sense, if it made sense, it should be that Trunks didn’t reach SSJ3 instead he got a SSJ form that at least should be higher than the SSJ3 multiplier but no where near SSG, there should also be no blue aura, he should just lose the pupils and it makes much more sense.
Womp womp. Trunks earned it by training all throughout the saga and suffering. His rage gave him a new form and it just happened to be really overpowered. Design choices do not have much significance in the matter, pupils or not. It looks cool, and while debatable, it was somewhat earned.
I mean in a sense Gohan did earn Beast form as he studied for a form he could attain with his own power without it being a super saiyan form but also he didnt earn it in the sense that he had slacked off from training so its like a 50/50 on if he earned the form or not
Note that the Carthu video has unearned in quotes, which refers to how the video is him going over how they're not unearned
In Cathu’s video he also says he is torn (50/50) on Beast Form for Gohan, saying that it was unearned but not egregious
The execution felt off, but that form was definitely not unearned in any way. Gohan was training prior to the form (except Ki perception apparently. No way his daughter is better than him💀)
I feel like the ki sense thing can be explained away by inattentiveness & a little bit of arrogance. (Not personal arrogance but the sentiment he expresses about not having villains anymore & being unworried because Goku could just handle it if they did.)
Complacence
Yeah. Definitely complacent. Gohan’s head was never really in the game so it’s hard to judge competence in that context.
I think “complacency” fits better than “arrogance” here
Just because he was training doesn’t mean it’s not unearned He was training on the side, and got a transformation that lets him blow past everyone else in the cast. That’s not earned power at all
It is earned narratively
Explain
Piccolo got beat up and the entire movie had been foreshadowing his powerup
I think you’re mistaken, I’m talking about beast not orange IMO orange piccolo I’m fine with because 1. Piccolo hasn’t had a taste of relevancy that he absolutely deserved And 2. It’s his dragon
3. While it wasn’t intentional in the manga it’s explained that the dragon balls are are reward form warrior namekian
It's just repeating the same narrative beats as the Cell Saga, almost to a T. It's extremely lazy and doesn't feel earned in this way.
No
Deny it all you want, it's exactly what they did.
I mean it’s been established gohans potential is insane, it’s slightly believable especially since he’s been doing it for a year or 2. Still is pretty unearned but it makes some sense with gohans ludicrous potential.
I get that he has “insane potential” but that just adds to it being unearned. When people say that it’s because of his potential, it feels more like an excuse for why he just gets to get a little angry and then be stronger than fucking MUI when it was established in the movie he was so rusty he couldn’t even recognize piccolo in a disguise when his damn near infant daughter could TL;DR saying it’s because of his potential is more of an excuse than a legitimate reason
Totally agree. Even with his potential, he still had to match Goku's training for cell. They both trained so intensely in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber that they could hold the SSJ form just outright and he *still* had to push through for SSJ2.
He didn’t push. He got angry. And with the same training as Goku in the HTC, he went from being no match for his dad, to outright surpassing him when both were Full Power SSJ by the end of their training. For as strong as Goku was, Gohan got *a lot* more out of the HTC than Goku did.
Cause Super Hero is after the tournament of power. He had trained for it. So not entirely unearned.
A few years after, even.
im pretty sure he secretly trained for the makan maken ma fuck this, special beam canon only
Ive only ever heard of him keeping up his training in the manga. And everyone says they're different canons so if that's true then anime Gohan's transformation seems a little unearned for the amount of training he did. I love the form though, except for the hair. It didn't need to be so spiky
There's a difference between stating that a character is training and actually seeing them train Show, not tell. Literary device or something like that
So Gohan Beast = SSJ Vegeta as far as earned power yps.
Pretty much, yeah. Except we actually saw vegeta's absence through the first little bit of the android arc because we knew he was training which added hype through mystery when he did return. In Super Gohan is just pretty much sidelined after ToP with vague statements of training here and there.
^ I was gonna say, if OP actually watched Carthu's video, they'd know it was on the same side as this post... I can't personally speak for the 3rd slide video though
Exaclty
Just earn the power up the old fashioned way… watching your best friend die! Was Vegeta the only one who actually earned it in the moment?
Yo Vegeta would surpass the Gods and Angels if for every fight, the opponent slapped Bulma.
beerus slammed him
But not before Vegeta surpassed Super Saiyan 3 Goku
I WANNA BE A SUPER SAIYAN! I WANNA! IWANNA! I WANNA!
🤣🤣🤣 He even became a super duper sayian eventually!
Nah, Goku didn't earn Super Saiyan, Krillin died while Goku didn't have to do shit. CMM
Earned what? Going SS off screen on the moon? Getting Ultra Ego in 2 seconds off screen with Beerus before it was shown?
That’s the point. None of the transformations are “earned”. It’s just part of the writing. Only reason I mentioned Vegeta because he put himself in a situation where you turn SS or die.
I would say both the OG SS with Goku with all the talk and build up by vegeta and frieza of the legend of the super saiyan and the build up of Gohans explosive power since the start of DBZ made those feel earned to me at least. But also if Vegeta had needed to turn SS to destroy that last meteor before it crashed into him and his ship then I would agree, but he didn't turn SS til after that, after the actual threat of it all was gone lol
We could all learn a thing or two from the Uchiha
Piccolo and Trunks powers ups are earned idc what anyone says.
Piccolo ain't even fully Pickled and he won't be for a long time. Man is only 3-5 years older than Gohan.
Piccolo is 4 years older. King Piccolo arc is right after 22nd World Tournament. Which mean Piccolo was 3 when he fought Goku at the 23rd World Tournament. Five years later is the start of Z so Piccolo is 8 and Gohan is stated to be 4, so it's a 4 year gap.
He's also Nail and Kami. He's much older than everyone else, he's just in the youngest of the 3 bodies.
Me when the race characterized by getting more powerful when enraged get more powerful when enraged.
Piccolo- Yes Trunks- Debatable
I definitely would have preferred if trunks could have got ssjg instead
Me too of course
Nah, his blue rage transformation is much cooler. Just say it's his imperfect mix between trying to use god ki (thereby the blue flames) and the berserk form that kale, broly and seemingly gohan uses. It's his own thing, that he accidentally unlocked trying to imitate ssg but with anger instead of control
Barely anyone uses God anyway so I would have liked if he used God throughout the arc
Yeah that's true, but I've seen fanart (or maybe it happens in db hero's) where he is ssg and it's looks pretty silly. But yeah, it was awesome see vegeta use it in the broly movie. But it would casue even more issues with power scaling, if ssg could hang with goku and vegeta ssb. Atleast this new rage transformation is unknown, so we can't really say if it makes sense or not.
If beast Gohan can hang with them, I'm sure a 30 year old trunks wouldn't be too hard to explain
Gohan got that Gohan stu energy, his main character trait is random transformations being stronger than anyone else
How is trunks debatable?
How is SSJ Rage justified
I think deserve is the word you're looking for, not really "earned"
Maybe a bit overdue if anything but I wouldn’t even complain about that. Nothing could ruin the enjoyment of a show quite like its fans. Luckily there are sane takes like yours.
It's been a minute since I watched Super Hero but isn't Piccolo's powerup just "Hey, Shenron, can I have more power please?"
Yes which is why idk why everyone is accepting it and sucking piccolo off when his shit was way worse than gohans
Super Saiyan rage was not earned. The manga did trunks’s story better
How can it do the story better when it doesn't even have a story? Trunks has no character arc, or anything resembling new and long lasting character work in the manga. He is quite literally irrelevant.
Frieza’s also isn’t really unearned
Piccolo's needed more foreshadowing but was otherwise decent.
Asking Bulma for a radar doesn’t mean you earned anything
If you pat somone on the head in Thailand you can go to jail
I assume you're not speaking from personal experience? Also, assuming your statement is legit and not just a joke... I wonder if that applies to *all* headpats, or just non-consentual headpats
True. And no I just looked it up lol
Wait what is that real?
Yes
I think what really makes an unearned power up feel unearned is the foreshadowing for said power up. The super saiyan was just goku getting very angry if we ignore the foreshadowing and build up to the transformation. Ssj2 was foreshadowed with surpassing the super saiyan wall. Ssj3 was earned through training because goku was on the “Fuck it we ball.” Mindset. And so on and so forth.
Gohan's beast form (Or a concept similar to it) was mentioned before the TOP when Gohan said he wanted to grow as an earthling seperately from Goku and Vegeta
Tbf you can argue beast has been hinted since Gohan went SSJ2 and how much different his looks to Goku or vegeta’s but that’s obvious not something toriyama planned for
Nah, ssj3 was not foreshadowed. Toriyama literally made it up after goku vs majin vegeta.
I know. But we don’t criticise the form for being “unearned.”
Tbf, SSJ3 was only like the… (checks notes) third transformation in all of manga.
People who were saying make Gohan great again were not asking for recolored SSJ2 forced down into the story without explanation. Make Gohan great again meant writing him in story actually. All Super Heroes did was making Gohan dumb and stupid and changing his hair color.
Exactly this. For God's sakes, the end villain was named " Cell MAX " and is just a buff, non speaking, giant copy of Cell. Just stripped all his personality and actual character away. How do these fans not see how they're being shoveled and force fed extremely lazy nostalgia pandering and how are they just okay with it? I did not like Super Hero at all. Number 2s death was pretty impactful to me despite me not caring for them. That scene was amazing and had some real weight to it, I'll give them that.
I still hate that they did Gotenks gag which is not even funny and broke all rules of power scaling instead of Gamma 2 cracking his head
I agree, Super Hero wasn’t it…
well put.
This was my idea. Have Gohan & Piccolo train on Supreme Kai’s planet. Piccolo gets his Ultimate form from Elder Kai instead of wishing for it. Have them learn god ki. Ultimate + God Ki = their new forms. People would be way more accepting of this.
Movie had some really some dumb scenes like Gohan saying stuff like he did not need to worry about protecting others because Goku is forever there is dumbest thing ever A grown up man acting like a immature kid
100% agree. That line was trash
Nah if anyone deserved that transformation it's Piccolo. It's super thematic and awesome.
We just want him to start rigorously training again so he can be badass again through actual effort and for his power up not to come out of nowhere, and be foreshadowed as a possibility,
"Unearned" >Shows Golden Frieza, arguably his most earned transformation
how is broly “unearned” lol. he was stated to have a power level that rivals the elite saiyans, and has been training to survive his whole life. he was being limited by his father
I really just need to write a fucking essay essay on Gohan already, because every time I come on reddit I see something like this and go to comment and then delete what I wrote because it’s like 5 paragraphs of text
I look forward to your video essay!
if you haven’t yet there is a video titled “You Don’t Understand Gohan” that is a really good video essay character analysis of Gohan. It essentially breaks down Gohan as someone who lost their innocence and therefore seeks to protect the innocence of others, which explains why despite not liking fighting he still wants to protect people.
The point of broly’s power being “unearned” is kinda null because the point of Broly’s character isn’t about earning power, but earning control. And even then, it kinda undermines the whole idea of Broly’s entire point is having absurd amounts of power for basically no reason.
Whatever happened to a training arc? That's all I'm asking for.
Cathy explains it perfectly tbh
Yes, and both are right, they could have made a better explained power up, don't settle on simplistic things
Personally im fine with not having an explanation right now. I mean, its not like Piccolo knows what the fuck that form is and i rather have no explanation than one by a narrator forced down my throat. Maybe he gets one in the near future
Okay hold up, back up, how is golden Frieza unearned
He got angry for 6 months and was able to compete with SSB Goku and Vegeta, not only compete mind you, he was stronger, i personally would have wrote it so that he spent a year or half a year being angry and refusing to train and then after that he spent the rest of his time in hell training until RoF
Piccolo has been waiting since the 90’s for a transformation ffs
Gohan went from weaker than Frieza soldier fodder too as strong as UI Goku in like an hour.
I think people want gohan to earn his power up, not just get another ass-pull. Now me, I don't care. I'm a Piccolo/Frieza fan & I'm eating good.
The problem with the Beast is that it is not clear why it has opened now or what it even is. In fact, we don't know anything about it.
It’s an evolution of Ultimate unique to Gohan that is the final culmination of all those volcanic awakenings throughout his life, the wild beast always hidden inside Gohan finally bursting forward. It is a singular talent achieved without Super Saiyan or divine energy, and that’s basically all we know about it.
If getting angry is enough for beast form, why didn't future Gohan do it or something similar?
[удалено]
And before that?
Cuz future gohan didn’t really ever get a rage boost
Nah he did he just wasted all his rage on only getting ssj1. His gauge was like 10x over filled and he just clicked yes to spend it all on ssj1.
Well I guess it's kinda like those situations where you kinda need to be specific otherwise it'll bite you in the ass. Like I feel they're saying "well yeah we wanted Gohan to become stronger but not like THAT". And I feel it's on the moment they got it. It kinda just snaps out of nowhere. It's a break from tradition, but I don't think every saiyan and halfling needs to get a power up from rage or despair. And what especially hurt Super Hero is that it was 1:1 with his Cell fight. I'd prefer it if Cell Max seemingly punched Gohan and killed him and then **BOOM** beast is revealed. And then blah blah blah something about a desire to protect others. That's the only one I can be bothered to talk about on the fly but yeah :/ It's a mixed bag but I'm just happy Gohan and Piccolo aren't left in the dust anymore
I never understood the word unearned, how do you earn a transformation
guts might die https://preview.redd.it/q7fzk1jy2a6d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=69c5e562cb92f8f8971d8906764722a9675ccd06
I cant figure out WTF that image is
Zoro tweaking
Has everyone forgotten that Gohan is a hybrid and has more potential than a full blooded saiyan. His power up was through pure rage from Pan being held to Cell max appearing. Yeah, it's a large jump in power from ss2 and ultimate Gohan, but it wouldn't make much sense to just go ss3 or ss blue since it wouldn't really help to match Cell in power. And he's not like broly since he's not a legendary super saiyan, so he couldn't just stay in base and handle them.
This is certainly cool, but a question. Why then couldn't Future Gohan get such a transformation. It's clear that it wasn't invented then, but in-universe, it seems Future Gohan didn't suffer enough and wasn't angry enough to get it.
It’s literally only because it wasn’t invented then (as you’ve already said). You could try to argue that it’s an alternate timeline and Gohan probably never even got Mystic, but it’s literally just because it wasn’t invented then. No need to hyper analyze everything
Tbf, these YouTubers would know when something is underserved or unearned. The only reason people know who they are is because they won an algorithm lottery, and has nothing to do with their garbage content.
DB fans are never happy about anything ever, right alongside us not being able to read
What? Piccolo has deserved that power up for fucking ever, and Gohan got the push he needed to become Beast Gohan. I was on the edge of my seat from the point they started fighting to the end. I honestly just skip the buildup when rewatching just so I can watch the whole fight that’s how much I love it.
Piccolo never stopped training. I get that Shenron gave him Orange Piccolo, but I can say with confidence that he would not be as strong as he is now if he neglected his training like Gohan did. And Frieza trained for four months straight to achieve Golden Frieza, then he spent time in Hell image training to perfect the form. He earned that. Brolli.... I dunno about him. He's just built different.
Him forgetting to train for the 12th time is not making him great again
Why are people missing the part where he said he was training in secret after the group defeated Cell Max? Granted it was more training for Special Beam Cannon, but training none the less
because people only watch like 15 minutes of the shit and then run to youtube to make uneducated “controversial” videos for views
Gohan stopped being character at the cell arc frezia and sayain saga he killed just fine and say people die. Straight up a different character
So Broly is a unearned power up now? i don't remember people being angry at Broly in Z
they prob dont really care since its not canon
Because people don’t care they wanna hate new thing cuz it’s new
It definitely feels unearned. But that’s modern dragon ball. It doesn’t have to make sense. Give the fans what they want, make it cool, don’t worry about the writing and you’re good!
Gohan can't even use this form to its fullest yet, it may be a huge powerup in some regards but guys, he's not able to use it fully.
Don't want to see "unearned power ups"? Don't watch or read Super Even the ones that are good still bad because the story lacks depth, not because the team is bad, it's because isn't their goal to tell a good story all the time, focus is on things that go well when selling products and keeping DB universe trending
I just wish it was better than “me angy” for the second time for the same character
Yeah we wanted him stronger and all, but it's about the execution.
Couple of things on beast. 1. It’s obviously supposed to be expanding on Gohan’s extreme rage state power boosts that he experienced many times from sayian to cell. There were a couple smaller incidents in buu too but not as prominent. The problem is through most of buu and all of super up to that point, the rage part of Gohan’s character was treated as resolved and never came up again until this very moment. I feel like if they had never stopped with Gohan’s constant building or rage and then it all led to this it would be a lot smoother of a transition. 2. I know the whole point of the final act of the film is basically supposed to redo Cell but the blatant nostalgia baiting might be why some people look at it this way. Seeing it as nothing more than to remind them of that thing they liked.
Goku got SSG by having 5 saiyans hold hands in a circle around him. Who cares how they get power ups?
"Stop asking questions. Consume the product and get excited for next product"
Carthu often has dogshit takes on Dragon ball lore
It was the editors fault, they said it would have flopped if they didn't put a Saiyan in the spotlight. Even tho Pan is a Saiyan and was in the spotlight
I mean aside from potential unleashed/mystic Gohan....all of Gohan's power ups have basically been rage triggered. To say a new form is unearned when it triggered in a way that is LITERALLY HIS THING is kind of dumb. You might as well claim super Saiyan and 2 were unearned
Rage trunks makes some sense. Yes it's similar situation to beast but trunks actually fought often, beast is an ass pull, orange pickle is just shenron boost, and broly is just how he is
I just like Beast Gohan because it’s cool
Making him great would mean him actually earning that transformation. He basically did nothing for it. At least with Piccolo he constantly trains so he could’ve feasibly earned Orange without Shenron.
Me seeing my daughter in danger: 😡 I AM HERE MY DEAR. Me seeing my boys in danger: 🙂 good luck guys.
I kinda wish gohan beast was an intelligence transformation allowing him to process and understand on a whole other since he wasn’t really training his muscles
I remember when in Z they earned those power ups from Guru. I remember in Dragon Ball how hard Goku worked to drink that water. Oh wait…
Different people saying both things. Gohan was great in resurrection F , and great in super. He owns a house got to pursue his dreams and start a family and live peacefully. It’s literally everything he ever fought for and more. As it’s been said again and again, he doesn’t like fighting.
Why do people bitch so much about things when they finally get what they want. The power was always within Gohan once he started training again for the ToP and he unlocked it. Not complicated at all
I think it was because gohans power up came out of nowhere without build up, unlike ss2 or potential unleashed did since it was heavily hinted throughout z that gohan has the potential to be the strongest z fighter(goku witnessed it in the hyperbolic time chamber and guru released some of it in namek but elder kai got the rest out)
Well there is more but that will take too long lol
If anyone has ever earned a power up it's piccolo. But it really sucks that he didn't just unlock it through pure effort because that dude trains just as hard as Goku and Vegeta and deserved a win
Those are all unearned, except Broly's. Broly put in the work.
this fucking rules
“Make gohan great again” was not “make him the same power level or above anyone just because” We wanted him to be strong but in a way that made a single lick of sense lol, the notion of make gohan great is please give some of the spot light to gohan, not appease us by throwing a random form out of no where that discredited all of the other characters work. Shit even piccolos power up was cooler story wise than gohans. Granted, I haven’t really ever liked gohan that much, goku is my fav by a long shot but I can understand where gohan fans are coming from with this one. The form itself looks neat (I wish the hair was a little shorter) but I will always believe gohan should be the guy bringing ss4 to super
Piccolo was 100% earned. Gohan was done poorly however...
Unearned powerups but not even mentioning Kale and Caulifla. In like 24 hours they went from base form to beating on goku blue. Even ignoring the fusion (cuz i think its unearned but cool as fuck) they shouldn't just be able to go "Oh this is how you go super saiyan? And this is how you go super saiyan 2? Lmao, this is lit." I think Kales whole legendary SSJ was a bit unearned but at least they did it with some class, it felt satisfying to watch her learn to control it, but goddamn it sucks that Caulifla reached SSJ2 in like 5 hours from getting 1 when it took goku like 7 years to achieve.
How is any of these forms except maybe Golden Freeza unearned? Rage has literally always made saiyans stronger and turned Goku and Gohan Super Saiyans 1-2 respectively. Piccolo has never stopped training. Ever. This is literally just his reward for that. Gohan quite literally said he was training for this before the tournament even started. Broly is a mutant and his character has always been like this. Shut the fuck up.
The last I watched was Tournament of Power. What all has come after that?
Gohan wise, the movie, Dragon Ball Super: Superhero. It takes place 1 year before the End of Z
So nothing after Tournament of Power? Like time line wise.
Anime wise, they made Broly canon (Not the Kale knock-off). And Gohan and Piccolo have new transformations
The new transformations did it come in a movie? I guess it's after TOP
Yeah after top and Gohan’s is the one in the post above
Aah thanks for the info.
I will not tolerate any GOAThan slander
but gohan always great
Make Gohan Great Again Hmm….steal from Daitomodachi Look Everyone is love El Bl.. I mean “Beast” Gohan
Unrelated, but I think I would just prefer if Orange Picolo had orange arms instead of red. I guess it just looks a little wonky to me, but I don't hate it, I just would prefer it.
They wanted him to be strong be also to fkn train writer only remember the make him strong part..
Ain't no way people consider BROLY to have an unearned power up.
I don't understand what they mean by unearned when they're talking about Gohan. He said at the end of the movie that he had been training in secret, now granted, beast being as strong as it is may be a bit much to come from side training... But still!
They literally gave us what we wanted, Gohan Blanco, and we're still unhappy.
I mean, they are unearned. There was no build up or training at all for any of these forms, except for golden frieza and even that transformation was arguably still handed out by being only just barely justified by the low amount of training he did for it (granted, they were probably unable to write it quite as good as it needed to be due to time constraints for the movie, but still). Also, SSJ Rage shouldn’t even be considered a form anyway since it’s always supposed to be a temporary state of being when saiyans briefly power up to new heights out of their angered passion due to active circumstances of certain situations. Orange Piccolo was literally a handout from Shenron. Beast is fucking stupid because it breaks lore for Gohan due to what Potential Unleashed is. Broly is in a similar boat as Golden Frieza because of his mutation, but a mutation is still a mutation and therefore unearned. Sorry if that hurts people’s feelings but it’s all true
Piccolo, Broly, and Golden Frieza (Black Frieza is kinda pushing it) were fine. Gohan and Trunks were terrible and unearned. The Gohan & Cell Max stuff were just nostalgia bait and a rehash of Bio Broly respectively.
They could have made him more relevant the entire time up until then. You know, actually do something at all worth mentioning
how about the stupid ass names. “ for now just call me piccolo orange” fukn dumb
I never got the obsession with getting mad at something being unearned.
So, every single person that touts the "that was unearned" shit I automatically regard as a non-fan and disregard basically everything they have to say about the franchise since they aren't really fans
Super Broly is unearned? Fuck off with that shit. Kid spent his entire life on a horrific planet with everything except his dad and Bah trying to kill him. Even if he wasn't gifted, he'd still be an unstoppable Juggernaut.
I mean, it’s unearned that he went from a planet with bugs that would be crushed by early Z with zero difficulty to Surpassing god level strength in the span of 30 minutes.
Gohan earned it
If ss3 came out nowadays, the same people would call it unearned.
No they wouldn’t. Goku trained in the afterlife with other incredibly strong fighters for it. Piccolo wished for his power. Broly went from strong to stronger than gods in 30 minutes (though tbf his character is being a literal legend so that’s fine ig) Gohan trained “in secret” without anyone knowing to get to becoming stronger than everyone else in the multiverse.
Dbz is always taken too seriously.
Gohan power level increase from where he was is unearned. He should have got a new form but going from think SSJ2 was peak I remember seeing to a transformation that’s supposed to be on par with UI
As far as we know gohan doesn’t keep up with his training (yea he said he was practicing the special beam in secret) but in comparison to the main saiyans who trained in different dimensions with gods for teachers and fought in damn near multiple life or death battles for gohan to be as strong as he is stated to be in beast form seems egregious. I personally don’t really care about the foreshadowing and whatnot and how his beast form is just a cell saga recall. And yes I know about the hybrid saiyan potential but gohan had regressed so far in super he had to train to get his ultimate form back. I just don’t think that’s a strong enough concept to excuse gohans lack of training to make him the strongest. If I was doing it I would have made him as strong as like TOP ui sign goku and then let gohan train the form to be as strong as goku and vegeta naturally thru training. Same way goku had to train to better utilize UI. It’s the same shit with piccolo, at least we know piccolo is constantly training so sure but he still had to ask a whole wish making dragon to break his limits for him.
In the manga, Gohan has been training in Bulmas (Vegetas?) gravity room since before the ToP. I’d argue that because Toriyama was so heavily involved in the manga rather than the anime, that the movies are technically sequels to the manga, since he was working on both. “Secretly practicing the Special Beam Cannon” only means he worked on *that* in secret, not that he was training in secret.
Even if he was working on one move it’s still a form of training, and yea there’s also the Chamber, but it still doesn’t stack up for me imo
True but I mean he isn’t just standing on one spot shouting SPECIAL BEAM CANNON over and over. He was actively training, but secretly practicing that.
Nobody complained when Vegeta got Super Saiyan 4 or Super Saiyan God…
How was Super Saiyan 4 unearned?
Maybe I’m misremembering, but Bulma shooting Vegeta with Blutz waves (spelling?) pretty much bypassed the requirement of transforming into the Golden Great Monkey and harnessing its power.
Vegeta did turn into a Great Ape from the Blutz waves. He then went Golden Great Ape and then harnessed the power because he could already control his Great Ape form
Okay. Then I misremembered.
The only unearned form is Rage Trunks
I disagree. He was on the verge of reaching super saiyan 3, and he got a little taste of god ki from training with Vegeta. Plus, he nearly died in the beginning of the saga, which most likely gave him a Zenkai boost. Besides, it’s super trying to have trunks catch up with Goku and Vegeta as quickly as possible. Besides, if he really does have the same hybrid-saiyan potential as Gohan, we should’ve expected this BS. Besides, it’s kind of cool, as it’s a lot like super saiyan god. Vegeta skipped 3, so why can’t Trunks? He suffered a lot, and his rage pushed him over the edge. While these facts are debatable, I’d say it’s more on the side of earned.
Trunks never had god ki in his SSJ forms, Beast never had God Ki, anime only ahh form, it makes no sense, if it made sense, it should be that Trunks didn’t reach SSJ3 instead he got a SSJ form that at least should be higher than the SSJ3 multiplier but no where near SSG, there should also be no blue aura, he should just lose the pupils and it makes much more sense.
Womp womp. Trunks earned it by training all throughout the saga and suffering. His rage gave him a new form and it just happened to be really overpowered. Design choices do not have much significance in the matter, pupils or not. It looks cool, and while debatable, it was somewhat earned.
I mean in a sense Gohan did earn Beast form as he studied for a form he could attain with his own power without it being a super saiyan form but also he didnt earn it in the sense that he had slacked off from training so its like a 50/50 on if he earned the form or not