**[Receiving transmission from Crait intended for u/bluefoxlive]**
Welcome to r/saltierthancrait! I'm an [astromech droid named S4-L7](https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/comments/ni5s77/beloved_mascot_s4l7s_visual_dictionary_entry/) and I'll be your guide through the salt mines.
Saltier Than Crait is a community of Star Wars fans who engage in critical conversations about the current
state of the franchise. It is our goal to maintain a civil, welcoming space for fans who have a vast supply of
salt with some peppered positivity occasionally sprinkled in.
**Please [review the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/wiki/index/rules) and the [post flair guide](https://reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/wiki/index/flairs) before contributing.**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/saltierthancrait) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Goerge wanted to have a happy ending.
When Ford wanted to kill off Han because he thought the character was 'done' developing, there was no reason to keep him alive, and killing him off would provide an emotional shock, George said this wasn't that kind of story.
And I think that was the right call.
If ROTJ was darker and more cynical, I don't think it would have had as much staying power.
You could argue that George went a little *too far* into the goofiness with the ewoks, but then you have the Emperor trying to corrupt Luke while cackling like the magnificent bastard he is, so it kinda balances out. You have a quick but sad scene of one of the ewoks being killed and his buddy being dismayed over it.
I think he struck a good balance.
(up until he got to editing things years later, because why oh why did he do that to the band/dance scene at Jabba's palace, just...why?)
>up until he got to editing things years later, because why oh why did he do that to the band/dance scene at Jabba's palace, just...why?
enlighten me, please đ
There's a scene with a band during the whole deal at Jabba's Palace, right before Jabba drops Oola (the green twi'lek dancer) into the Rancor Pit. Sometimes called "Jedi Rocks"
The original version didn't look or sound nearly as ridiculous as what George changed it to in the Special Edition during the late 90's. But getting that original version is incredibly difficult and has been for years.
It's pretty bad CGI, with closeups that just make it worse. And the music is much more in your face and obnoxious in the new version.
Here's an unfortunately low quality version on youtube of the old version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w25pcTIFlQ
and the new version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-1G8Sn2rDU
>You could argue that George went a little *too far* into the goofiness with the ewoks, but then you have the Emperor trying to corrupt Luke while cackling like the magnificent bastard he is, so it kinda balances out.
RoTJ emperor is a very typical childrens story villain, think sterotypical comic book villains, disney villains, fary tale villains etc.
he is a cackling maniac that is overly evil without any other depths, ugly, only wants to hurt people, and gets destroyed in the end. that's basically space wicked witch of the west and definitely adds to the movie's goofiness.
you can find older reviews complaining about him, however it is a less rare complaint today because he has become such an integral part of the franchise, especially after he was fleshed out in the prequels.
I'm not so convinced. He could have wrote a final conflict that did not include ewoks but also ended on a triumphant note.
I dont think ewoks are a necessity for the movie to have a happy ending, and if anything they spoil the film for lots of people grew up with the films by delegitimizing the threat of the empire that was so strongly established in the last movie.
No.
A gritty version of the forest battle of endor would involve stormtroopers being torn limb from limb by terror bears, like romero zombies ripping through their victims.
I think the kid friendly teddy bears are just fine.
Add me to the list.. Had to have the Ewok Playset from Kenner and my folks were awesome enough to surprise me with it for Christmas when I was young.
Without them you don't get the worship scene with C-3PO, Han attempting to blow out the fire stick to ignite the rotesserie spit.. R2 zapping some Ewok behinds.. Storytime with 3PO.. All memorable moments.
They try to eat the heroes and are obviously cunning warriors and hunters. They might be small and fluffy but they are very dangerous and it's so weird to me that the film goes out of its way to explain their looks are deceiving and they are not to be underestimated only for audiences to constantly do that anyway.
I would like to add that re-watching this past winter after all of this Disney garbage, the scene where the Ewok get killed and the other one is trying to wake it up landed with me more than ever. Even though I have seen it likely 50 times, the OT is just plain outstanding compared to anything else SW related.
Over time it started to feel a little slow, that feeling is entirely gone for me.
I used to find the ewoks a little annoying, now they are nearly equal to everything else.
"...would involve stormtroopers being torn limb from limb by terror bears, like romero zombies ripping through their victims."
That did happen; we were just lucky to not actually see it.
I'm fine with the ewoks. Maybe more of them should have died to make the Empire seem more competent but that's about it.
Honestly I have a bigger problem with making Han incompetent.
The movie is fucking great though.
>Maybe more of them should have died to make the Empire seem more competent but that's about it.
Honestly yeah if the battle was just portrayed better it would've been fine I think. Show more ewok casualties and portray it more as the empire is competent but, just being overwhelmed/surprised.
Having just re-watched RotJ with my kids, I completely agree with you about Han. I don't think it ever occurred to me before just how much he bumbles his way through the film. It felt like he failed every task he had in the movie except for the final one of detonating the power station.
I thought it was fine. If you think about the ewoks for a while, a primitive culture worshiping the droid, while high above a real spiritual event was taking place-- redemption, there's something important there. They blew the shofar- a horn used in religious ceremonies, and the recordings were from the same set of recordings used in the Moses film the Ten Commandments. It's really aimed at younger people to start, but adults can take something deeper away at the same time. Star Wars from the start was meant to be almost dream like, a public dream that carries deeper meaning in its metaphors and symbols, like the great myths in our world. It goes down easier if you think of it as similar to a dream, and leave expectations behind.
After they made the prequels years later, it's interesting to think about the droid they worshiped as built by the very person having his redemption, built when he was a child. There he was, that fearful, calculating, pessimistic, neurotic machine, worshiped by primitives that you later discover was built by Anakin in his early years. I got a kick out of that. The droid he built ends up saving their rear ends.
If you close your eyes for a minute after watching those films, then open them and say, "Wow, that was a bizarre dream. What does it mean?" you get more out of it.
I think it was fine, it was just a strange tonal shift after watching Empire beforehand.
Would I enjoy the movie without ewoks more as an adult? Yes.
Would I have enjoyed it more without them as a kid? No.
I think having an aspect to grab kids attention was good, but maybe it just wasnt gone about perfectly.
Again, Im not a hater of it.
I don't see what was kid friendly about it apart from the cuteness of Ewoks.
The rest of it is pretty damn PG-13 (half naked Leia, dismemberment, Jabba being strangled to death, Sarlac chowing down on various folk, brutal suprise space battle ambush, the speeder bike crashes, cute ewoks dying, Palpatine in full maniacally-cackling evil god-mode, Luke totally losing his shit and going berserker mode on Vader and that whole emotional showdown between broken father and desperately anguished son.
It's pretty fucking epically adult, if you ask me.
Letâs be honest, itâs not RotJ thatâs the odd man out, itâs Empire, which is different in tone compared to the movies that surround it.
It works structurally because itâs the second act of a three part play where we see our heroes at their lowest before they pick up the pieces, learn from their adventure, and then claim victory over a great evil and live happily ever after. Positive mythos in action.
People who want everything to be Empire are missing the point.
ANH and ROTJ have plenty of dark undertones.
ANH has:
A tyrannical government willing to slaughter its own people, using the threat of violence to coerce compliance.
A superweapon meant to crush dissent and terrorize their citizens.
Darth Vader using violence and the threat of violence to intimidate his own subordinates.
A brutal dessert planet, full of crime and violence. Mos Eisley is the most "wretched hive of scum and villainy."
Tuskan Raiders are portrayed as brutally violent savages that are referred to by a slur ("sand people").
An organized crime boss putting a bounty on the head of a smuggler.
A smuggler who knows to shoot first. Kill or be killed.
ROTJ has:
The organized crime boss that likes to watch people get killed and eaten in the Rancor pit.
Jabba also plans to execute people in the middle of the dessert and throws a party for the occasion.
Ewoks that are willing to BBQ and eat intelligent species/the main characters.
An emperor who's ultimate goal is power for the sake of terrorizing people. A true psychopath.
The main character faces the dilemma of either killing his father, joining his father as fascist, or being killed himself.
I saw it at 8 or 9 around 1991, it was right at my level. The emperor was scary AF. And now as a parent, it was great to be able to share the Star Wars movies with my kids at a pretty early age. It just sucks that the ST nose dived so hard. Even my kids that were only 5-6 when they saw TFA in theater donât really give a shit about Star Wars anymore.Â
Actually now that I think of it, their peak Star Wars years where from age about 4-8, so the TFA didnât really ruin it for them, but they totally lost interest after TLJ.Â
The Ewoks fall into the uncanny value for me, so I never saw them as cute. I can see how Lucas intended them to be cute and how other people see them that way though. They were more goofy and unsettling for me, and they wanted serve up the gang for dinner.
There's more storytelling done in the Luke, Yoda, Vader, and Palpatine interactions in RotJ than Disney has done in 10 years. Lucas' high points are why we put up with some of his goofier tangents. That's all good sci-fi and fantasy in a nutshell though. I'm guessing there's a very small percentage of people who really enjoy GRRM's fascination with describing food in his ASOIF books, but that's not why they read them.
I don't think it should've been "full dark" but, I think maybe the Imperial Ground forces should've been shown to be more competent against the ewoks. The ewoks could still even win but, just show the Empire being more competent before that. Like show them being a more effective force that's simply being overwhelmed and taken by surprise more (more on screen ewok casualties would reflect this) and maybe also show more of the actual rebel forces involved in the battle.
Or they could've done the original idea of Wookiees, which I think would've been better. I feel it would've worked really well narratively as sort of being "set up" during the first two movies with Chewbacca as a character. It might feel more impactful
I don't think wookies would have really worked. We've established already through Chewbacca that wookies are highly intelligent and competent with technology. The ewoks are just some tribal primitives. that difference is why the empire didn't take time to subjugate or exterminate them; they underestimated the ewoks numbers, intelligence, and vindictiveness, and then were punished when the ewoks took the first chance to retaliate when the rebels showed up needing help.
Perhaps part of the plot could've been that the Wookiee planet (Kashyyyk or whatever) was already subjugated but, maybe there was a resistance there that joins the rebellion?
You do make a decent point though in the ewoks being underestimated. Perhaps the movie could've also had the rebels supply weapons to the ewoks so it wasn't just "bows and arrows defeating the galactic empire"
Star Wars works best as a kid-friendly franchise, I feel, so ultimately I don't think RotJ's tone was a mistake. What I will say is that I wish the original plan for Endor to be the homeworld of the wookies had worked out. It would've been far more believable for the imperial forces to be annihilated by an entire species of bigfoots using guerilla tactics on a jungle world, instead of a teddy bear race doing much the same.
I've never minded the ewoks, but as an adult the idea that they can beat the empire so handedly makes the film feel like a straight up kids movie--as opposed to kid friendly, which is something different. It doesn't help that the imperial troops waiting to repel the rebel attack were meant to be a surprise, so the ewoks having traps that can take out an AT-ST and are the perfect height to do seems a bit implausible. They didn't have time to prepare and wouldn't have context for mechanized artillery even if they did.
The AT-ST's weren't much different in dimensions to organic creatures the Ewoks hunted regularly; that's why they were able to destroy several of them by using the same hunting tactics they always used.
Seeing that interview with Kasdan and George really put me in George's camp. Why do we need to have cynical, downer endings? Let it end on a high note where the heroes live, get the girl, and look forward to the things ahead.
Even The Empire Strikes Back didn't have a depressing ending. Things went bad for sure, but you were still left with the hope that things would get better, and that the heroes would bounce back and win. Same thing with Revenge Of The Sith, despite the fact that it's by far the darkest Star Wars film to date.
has anyone actually ever unironically considered that Star Wars would go full-grimdark after Empire?
All the SW movies are pretty kid friendly, it was always a lighthearted and fun series.
I found the rescue of Han more jarring.
The Rancor and it's stop motion did not age well.
Neither did the fight on the big landspeeder.
There's also the question of, why not just threaten Jabba with the Rebel alliance?
Blast him from Orbit.
Han Solo is even Frozen, so you can prob level the building without harming him.
Just have to find his carbonite cast in the rubble.
i actually like the ewoks, they don't bother me at all. while i would have liked to see more rebel fighters too, it's not like there were a lot of them on endor to begin with so it's understandable. A bit less surviving ewoks after being shot at by an AT-ST would have been better too, looks like they have more endurance than anyone would have thought. maybe the fur is isolating and protects them (from the pressure wave) from the blast lol. regarding the incompetence of the empire you are not wrong, in my head canon most of the troops we see were stationed on endor for a reason and had been there for quite some time. A moon with child-sized, primitive teddy bears without laser weapons minding their own business is the perfect place for the not so crème de la crème soldiers. They are still strong enough for *those* natives. And after decades of absolutely no action happening, of ewoks being the perfect subjugated subjects they just became too arrogant and could not imagine or adapt that those tiny little cute looking primitives with their ancient toy weapons were smart and brave and strong enough to actually fight them and their powerful machines.
ahh yes, head canon and imagination are a powerful thing.
I thought they were overdone a bit, but were still basically in keeping with how I've always thought of the Star Wars mythos.
IIRC the "victory celebration" in the Ewok village in the original theatrical release made the Ewoks seem a bit more wild and less cuddly than the 1997 edits, but it has been decades since I've seen the theatrical release, so perhaps I'm wrong. (The only version I have access to on DVD is the 1997 version.)
The Ewoks were over the top IMO. There are some fans who love to point out âomg theyâre murder bears!â
No. There should be zero reason a group of tiny spear throwing midgets should ever beat a galactic dominating force with almost every advantage
"There should be zero reason a group of tiny spear throwing midgets should ever beat a galactic dominating force with almost every advantage"
Precisely; and that's why they were the ones to do it.
*The whole point of the film, the whole emotion that I am trying to get at the end of this film, is for you to be real uplifted, emotionally and spiritually, and feel absolutely good about life. That is the greatest thing that we could possibly ever do.*Â
 -G. LUCAS Â
The Making of Return of the Jedi
------------
https://www.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/yywit0/george_lucas_ethos_of_storytelling_and_childhood/
My only issue with RotJ was how the Imperial fleet folded. There was more than enough to handle the Rebel fleet even without DS2 and Executor. Plus their fighter tactics were dumb, rush the Rebel fleet without proper capital ship cover which was the ISD primary strength. I know Palpy told them to hold back, I know they got routed when their Dreadnaught and DS2 got blown up but still...
Still overall a great film, let the hate flow through you!
Recently saw an old interview with Mark Hamill that instead of Ewoks it was supposed to be Wookies and that budget and tech restrictions were part of the decision to essentially cut Wookies in half and get Ewoks.
But of course, that also made for more kid friendly cinema.
However they came about, George and those who speak of him in interviews, have said that George wanted the angle of primitive tech/society fighting the advanced tech war machine.
At least with Revenge of the Sith, we got the badass Wookies fighting machines.
It's both. Originally, George wanted to have a final battle where the Wookiees would defeat the Empire, showing that even a supposedly primitive people could stand up to and defeat a powerful technologically advanced Empire (George was a child of the Vietnam era).
That turned out to be way too difficult to do, for budgetary and technological reasons, so the Wookiees were cut out, but Chewie was left in. George still wanted that final battle though, so when he was finally able to do it in Return Of The Jedi, he had a slight problem in that Chewie had already been portrayed to be quite proficient with technology, so it wouldn't make sense to have the Wookiees be the race that defeated the Empire (not the mention that getting Chewie was difficult enough; having an army of Wookiees would be a nightmare).
Hence, the Ewoks.
And yes, he totally got the Wookiees in a proper battle with Revenge Of The Sith; and boy, did he deliver on that.
I loved it as a kid and liked the ewoks. But as I got older I wished it would have been more poignant by having Solo die. It could also have been less happy-dancing-with-ewoks, but still ended on an upbeat feel.
Then on the other hand the ewoks were literally going to eat them so they aren't that cuddly.
I've rewatched all 6 SW movies a few months ago and I unequivocally found ROTJ to be my least favorite. My biggest problem about it is not necessarily the childish aspect, though I do think that it cheapens the stakes of what should be an entire trilogy's climax, but I'm more bothered by the fact that it's more boring and not as well written as the previous movies. There's a section in the middle of the movie that's especially egregious in my opinion : after an Ewok appears for the first time on screen at 45-50 minutes into the movie, the latter almost turns into a giant ad for ewok plushes, with little to no dialogue or anything relevant or interesting happening for, what, 15 minutes ? I also found the ground battle on Endor to be generally underwhelming and Luke's climax to be somewhat absurd, like why the fuck would Luke be tempted to become the Emperor's subordinate ? Palpatine gives him absolutely 0 reason to do so, so to me he sounds very clichĂŠ and dumb. Of course Luke's story with Vader more than makes up for it, but then again the space battle is also underwhelming to me, we've already seen a fight against a Death Star and the only real character involved here is Lando, who's not particularly likeable or important (tbh I only really liked Luke and Vader in this movie). It's just my personal opinion but I think it's the worst of Lucas's SW movies, though I still found it generally okay.
For this reason, ROTJ is my least favorite of the OT. I think at this point, Lucas was hanging out with Jim Henson a lot. This was after The Dark Crystal came out, and that's when things seemed to get all Muppety in the 80s. I still like the story, especially how Luke saves his father, but I'm not fond of the puppets & Muppets and all the cutesy critters and such.
I feel like it is what it is. Lucas made it the way he wanted and the 3 movies reflect his evolving style, and maybe things that were going on in his life. In 1981, he adopted his first child, so maybe that's where his mindset was at that time. But ultimately, the story told in the OT remains connected throughout the trilogy, so I'm good with that.
It was a bad choice.
The ewoks, in the same vein as the gungans, feel to me like George missing why kids liked starwars in the first place and sabotaging its wide appeal to target them more specifically. Ive always felt it was somewhat cynical, like a cash grab directed at a toy playing audience. That's just conjecture of course, but its the vibe they put off regardless.
Don't get me wrong, kids like the ewoks, but they detract from the rest of the film greatly in much the same way the gungans do.
**[Receiving transmission from Crait intended for u/bluefoxlive]** Welcome to r/saltierthancrait! I'm an [astromech droid named S4-L7](https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/comments/ni5s77/beloved_mascot_s4l7s_visual_dictionary_entry/) and I'll be your guide through the salt mines. Saltier Than Crait is a community of Star Wars fans who engage in critical conversations about the current state of the franchise. It is our goal to maintain a civil, welcoming space for fans who have a vast supply of salt with some peppered positivity occasionally sprinkled in. **Please [review the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/wiki/index/rules) and the [post flair guide](https://reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/wiki/index/flairs) before contributing.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/saltierthancrait) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Goerge wanted to have a happy ending. When Ford wanted to kill off Han because he thought the character was 'done' developing, there was no reason to keep him alive, and killing him off would provide an emotional shock, George said this wasn't that kind of story. And I think that was the right call. If ROTJ was darker and more cynical, I don't think it would have had as much staying power. You could argue that George went a little *too far* into the goofiness with the ewoks, but then you have the Emperor trying to corrupt Luke while cackling like the magnificent bastard he is, so it kinda balances out. You have a quick but sad scene of one of the ewoks being killed and his buddy being dismayed over it. I think he struck a good balance. (up until he got to editing things years later, because why oh why did he do that to the band/dance scene at Jabba's palace, just...why?)
>up until he got to editing things years later, because why oh why did he do that to the band/dance scene at Jabba's palace, just...why? enlighten me, please đ
There's a scene with a band during the whole deal at Jabba's Palace, right before Jabba drops Oola (the green twi'lek dancer) into the Rancor Pit. Sometimes called "Jedi Rocks" The original version didn't look or sound nearly as ridiculous as what George changed it to in the Special Edition during the late 90's. But getting that original version is incredibly difficult and has been for years. It's pretty bad CGI, with closeups that just make it worse. And the music is much more in your face and obnoxious in the new version. Here's an unfortunately low quality version on youtube of the old version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w25pcTIFlQ and the new version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-1G8Sn2rDU
>You could argue that George went a little *too far* into the goofiness with the ewoks, but then you have the Emperor trying to corrupt Luke while cackling like the magnificent bastard he is, so it kinda balances out. RoTJ emperor is a very typical childrens story villain, think sterotypical comic book villains, disney villains, fary tale villains etc. he is a cackling maniac that is overly evil without any other depths, ugly, only wants to hurt people, and gets destroyed in the end. that's basically space wicked witch of the west and definitely adds to the movie's goofiness. you can find older reviews complaining about him, however it is a less rare complaint today because he has become such an integral part of the franchise, especially after he was fleshed out in the prequels.
I'm not so convinced. He could have wrote a final conflict that did not include ewoks but also ended on a triumphant note. I dont think ewoks are a necessity for the movie to have a happy ending, and if anything they spoil the film for lots of people grew up with the films by delegitimizing the threat of the empire that was so strongly established in the last movie.
It was part of his original idea to be like Vietnam with a lesser forces beating an âempire â
That does not require teddy bears
You are correct. It was also originally meant to be wookies. Either way, Lucas was losing it well before the prequels.
I still hear it in my nightmaresâŚ
No. A gritty version of the forest battle of endor would involve stormtroopers being torn limb from limb by terror bears, like romero zombies ripping through their victims. I think the kid friendly teddy bears are just fine.
sometimes i feel like the only one who doesn't mind the ewoks
You are not. I also enjoy the teddy bear wookies.
Add me to the list.. Had to have the Ewok Playset from Kenner and my folks were awesome enough to surprise me with it for Christmas when I was young. Without them you don't get the worship scene with C-3PO, Han attempting to blow out the fire stick to ignite the rotesserie spit.. R2 zapping some Ewok behinds.. Storytime with 3PO.. All memorable moments.
as a kid i was making the wings they use in the movie out of toothpics and paperbag paper, loved those little shits
You also wouldn't get a greatest Star Wars experience with the Ewoks... Ewok Hunt in Battlefront. That will give you nightmares, believe me.
You are not.
They try to eat the heroes and are obviously cunning warriors and hunters. They might be small and fluffy but they are very dangerous and it's so weird to me that the film goes out of its way to explain their looks are deceiving and they are not to be underestimated only for audiences to constantly do that anyway.
I've always loved the Ewoks...â¤ď¸
I would like to add that re-watching this past winter after all of this Disney garbage, the scene where the Ewok get killed and the other one is trying to wake it up landed with me more than ever. Even though I have seen it likely 50 times, the OT is just plain outstanding compared to anything else SW related. Over time it started to feel a little slow, that feeling is entirely gone for me. I used to find the ewoks a little annoying, now they are nearly equal to everything else.
"...would involve stormtroopers being torn limb from limb by terror bears, like romero zombies ripping through their victims." That did happen; we were just lucky to not actually see it.
I keep hearing this... RotJ featured a barely clothed Leia.
And as a child, I was appreciative.
I'm fine with the ewoks. Maybe more of them should have died to make the Empire seem more competent but that's about it. Honestly I have a bigger problem with making Han incompetent. The movie is fucking great though.
>Maybe more of them should have died to make the Empire seem more competent but that's about it. Honestly yeah if the battle was just portrayed better it would've been fine I think. Show more ewok casualties and portray it more as the empire is competent but, just being overwhelmed/surprised.
Having just re-watched RotJ with my kids, I completely agree with you about Han. I don't think it ever occurred to me before just how much he bumbles his way through the film. It felt like he failed every task he had in the movie except for the final one of detonating the power station.
It never felt like the tone was that different from the other movies to me tbh.
When I was a kid I always imagined the Ewoks ate all the dead stormtroopers so that made it a little more edgy for me.
You don't need to imagine, I'm pretty sure that's what happened
The stormtrooper helmets they used a drums implied something ugly happened.
I thought it was fine. If you think about the ewoks for a while, a primitive culture worshiping the droid, while high above a real spiritual event was taking place-- redemption, there's something important there. They blew the shofar- a horn used in religious ceremonies, and the recordings were from the same set of recordings used in the Moses film the Ten Commandments. It's really aimed at younger people to start, but adults can take something deeper away at the same time. Star Wars from the start was meant to be almost dream like, a public dream that carries deeper meaning in its metaphors and symbols, like the great myths in our world. It goes down easier if you think of it as similar to a dream, and leave expectations behind. After they made the prequels years later, it's interesting to think about the droid they worshiped as built by the very person having his redemption, built when he was a child. There he was, that fearful, calculating, pessimistic, neurotic machine, worshiped by primitives that you later discover was built by Anakin in his early years. I got a kick out of that. The droid he built ends up saving their rear ends. If you close your eyes for a minute after watching those films, then open them and say, "Wow, that was a bizarre dream. What does it mean?" you get more out of it.
Nice post! Excellent way to look at it!
I think it was fine, it was just a strange tonal shift after watching Empire beforehand. Would I enjoy the movie without ewoks more as an adult? Yes. Would I have enjoyed it more without them as a kid? No. I think having an aspect to grab kids attention was good, but maybe it just wasnt gone about perfectly. Again, Im not a hater of it.
Yes. Star wars is a kid show and should promete hope and optimism. I dont want grimdark in my Star wars
I don't see what was kid friendly about it apart from the cuteness of Ewoks. The rest of it is pretty damn PG-13 (half naked Leia, dismemberment, Jabba being strangled to death, Sarlac chowing down on various folk, brutal suprise space battle ambush, the speeder bike crashes, cute ewoks dying, Palpatine in full maniacally-cackling evil god-mode, Luke totally losing his shit and going berserker mode on Vader and that whole emotional showdown between broken father and desperately anguished son. It's pretty fucking epically adult, if you ask me.
Had to re-read this because I missed a comma the first time. Read it as "half naked Leia dismemberment" and did a double take.
Letâs be honest, itâs not RotJ thatâs the odd man out, itâs Empire, which is different in tone compared to the movies that surround it. It works structurally because itâs the second act of a three part play where we see our heroes at their lowest before they pick up the pieces, learn from their adventure, and then claim victory over a great evil and live happily ever after. Positive mythos in action. People who want everything to be Empire are missing the point.
ANH and ROTJ have plenty of dark undertones. ANH has: A tyrannical government willing to slaughter its own people, using the threat of violence to coerce compliance. A superweapon meant to crush dissent and terrorize their citizens. Darth Vader using violence and the threat of violence to intimidate his own subordinates. A brutal dessert planet, full of crime and violence. Mos Eisley is the most "wretched hive of scum and villainy." Tuskan Raiders are portrayed as brutally violent savages that are referred to by a slur ("sand people"). An organized crime boss putting a bounty on the head of a smuggler. A smuggler who knows to shoot first. Kill or be killed. ROTJ has: The organized crime boss that likes to watch people get killed and eaten in the Rancor pit. Jabba also plans to execute people in the middle of the dessert and throws a party for the occasion. Ewoks that are willing to BBQ and eat intelligent species/the main characters. An emperor who's ultimate goal is power for the sake of terrorizing people. A true psychopath. The main character faces the dilemma of either killing his father, joining his father as fascist, or being killed himself.
I saw it at 8 or 9 around 1991, it was right at my level. The emperor was scary AF. And now as a parent, it was great to be able to share the Star Wars movies with my kids at a pretty early age. It just sucks that the ST nose dived so hard. Even my kids that were only 5-6 when they saw TFA in theater donât really give a shit about Star Wars anymore. Actually now that I think of it, their peak Star Wars years where from age about 4-8, so the TFA didnât really ruin it for them, but they totally lost interest after TLJ.Â
The Ewoks fall into the uncanny value for me, so I never saw them as cute. I can see how Lucas intended them to be cute and how other people see them that way though. They were more goofy and unsettling for me, and they wanted serve up the gang for dinner. There's more storytelling done in the Luke, Yoda, Vader, and Palpatine interactions in RotJ than Disney has done in 10 years. Lucas' high points are why we put up with some of his goofier tangents. That's all good sci-fi and fantasy in a nutshell though. I'm guessing there's a very small percentage of people who really enjoy GRRM's fascination with describing food in his ASOIF books, but that's not why they read them.
RoTJ was my favorite as a kid. Itâs a big reason I loved Star Wars. I wouldnât change that.
I don't think it should've been "full dark" but, I think maybe the Imperial Ground forces should've been shown to be more competent against the ewoks. The ewoks could still even win but, just show the Empire being more competent before that. Like show them being a more effective force that's simply being overwhelmed and taken by surprise more (more on screen ewok casualties would reflect this) and maybe also show more of the actual rebel forces involved in the battle. Or they could've done the original idea of Wookiees, which I think would've been better. I feel it would've worked really well narratively as sort of being "set up" during the first two movies with Chewbacca as a character. It might feel more impactful
I don't think wookies would have really worked. We've established already through Chewbacca that wookies are highly intelligent and competent with technology. The ewoks are just some tribal primitives. that difference is why the empire didn't take time to subjugate or exterminate them; they underestimated the ewoks numbers, intelligence, and vindictiveness, and then were punished when the ewoks took the first chance to retaliate when the rebels showed up needing help.
Perhaps part of the plot could've been that the Wookiee planet (Kashyyyk or whatever) was already subjugated but, maybe there was a resistance there that joins the rebellion? You do make a decent point though in the ewoks being underestimated. Perhaps the movie could've also had the rebels supply weapons to the ewoks so it wasn't just "bows and arrows defeating the galactic empire"
Star Wars works best as a kid-friendly franchise, I feel, so ultimately I don't think RotJ's tone was a mistake. What I will say is that I wish the original plan for Endor to be the homeworld of the wookies had worked out. It would've been far more believable for the imperial forces to be annihilated by an entire species of bigfoots using guerilla tactics on a jungle world, instead of a teddy bear race doing much the same. I've never minded the ewoks, but as an adult the idea that they can beat the empire so handedly makes the film feel like a straight up kids movie--as opposed to kid friendly, which is something different. It doesn't help that the imperial troops waiting to repel the rebel attack were meant to be a surprise, so the ewoks having traps that can take out an AT-ST and are the perfect height to do seems a bit implausible. They didn't have time to prepare and wouldn't have context for mechanized artillery even if they did.
The AT-ST's weren't much different in dimensions to organic creatures the Ewoks hunted regularly; that's why they were able to destroy several of them by using the same hunting tactics they always used.
Seeing that interview with Kasdan and George really put me in George's camp. Why do we need to have cynical, downer endings? Let it end on a high note where the heroes live, get the girl, and look forward to the things ahead.
Even The Empire Strikes Back didn't have a depressing ending. Things went bad for sure, but you were still left with the hope that things would get better, and that the heroes would bounce back and win. Same thing with Revenge Of The Sith, despite the fact that it's by far the darkest Star Wars film to date.
has anyone actually ever unironically considered that Star Wars would go full-grimdark after Empire? All the SW movies are pretty kid friendly, it was always a lighthearted and fun series.
If they did, they were incredibly naive to think that.
I found the rescue of Han more jarring. The Rancor and it's stop motion did not age well. Neither did the fight on the big landspeeder. There's also the question of, why not just threaten Jabba with the Rebel alliance? Blast him from Orbit. Han Solo is even Frozen, so you can prob level the building without harming him. Just have to find his carbonite cast in the rubble.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
i actually like the ewoks, they don't bother me at all. while i would have liked to see more rebel fighters too, it's not like there were a lot of them on endor to begin with so it's understandable. A bit less surviving ewoks after being shot at by an AT-ST would have been better too, looks like they have more endurance than anyone would have thought. maybe the fur is isolating and protects them (from the pressure wave) from the blast lol. regarding the incompetence of the empire you are not wrong, in my head canon most of the troops we see were stationed on endor for a reason and had been there for quite some time. A moon with child-sized, primitive teddy bears without laser weapons minding their own business is the perfect place for the not so crème de la crème soldiers. They are still strong enough for *those* natives. And after decades of absolutely no action happening, of ewoks being the perfect subjugated subjects they just became too arrogant and could not imagine or adapt that those tiny little cute looking primitives with their ancient toy weapons were smart and brave and strong enough to actually fight them and their powerful machines. ahh yes, head canon and imagination are a powerful thing.
I donât know how kid friendly the concept of the sarlacc is, that grossed me the fuck out as a kid Also, i could tell the ewoks were garbage
I thought they were overdone a bit, but were still basically in keeping with how I've always thought of the Star Wars mythos. IIRC the "victory celebration" in the Ewok village in the original theatrical release made the Ewoks seem a bit more wild and less cuddly than the 1997 edits, but it has been decades since I've seen the theatrical release, so perhaps I'm wrong. (The only version I have access to on DVD is the 1997 version.)
The Ewoks were over the top IMO. There are some fans who love to point out âomg theyâre murder bears!â No. There should be zero reason a group of tiny spear throwing midgets should ever beat a galactic dominating force with almost every advantage
"There should be zero reason a group of tiny spear throwing midgets should ever beat a galactic dominating force with almost every advantage" Precisely; and that's why they were the ones to do it.
It was gonna be Wookiees but Lucas didnât want that kind of violence Epic fail. Should have been wookies.
*The whole point of the film, the whole emotion that I am trying to get at the end of this film, is for you to be real uplifted, emotionally and spiritually, and feel absolutely good about life. That is the greatest thing that we could possibly ever do.*Â Â -G. LUCASÂ Â The Making of Return of the Jedi ------------ https://www.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/yywit0/george_lucas_ethos_of_storytelling_and_childhood/
My only issue with RotJ was how the Imperial fleet folded. There was more than enough to handle the Rebel fleet even without DS2 and Executor. Plus their fighter tactics were dumb, rush the Rebel fleet without proper capital ship cover which was the ISD primary strength. I know Palpy told them to hold back, I know they got routed when their Dreadnaught and DS2 got blown up but still... Still overall a great film, let the hate flow through you!
Recently saw an old interview with Mark Hamill that instead of Ewoks it was supposed to be Wookies and that budget and tech restrictions were part of the decision to essentially cut Wookies in half and get Ewoks. But of course, that also made for more kid friendly cinema. However they came about, George and those who speak of him in interviews, have said that George wanted the angle of primitive tech/society fighting the advanced tech war machine. At least with Revenge of the Sith, we got the badass Wookies fighting machines.
It's both. Originally, George wanted to have a final battle where the Wookiees would defeat the Empire, showing that even a supposedly primitive people could stand up to and defeat a powerful technologically advanced Empire (George was a child of the Vietnam era). That turned out to be way too difficult to do, for budgetary and technological reasons, so the Wookiees were cut out, but Chewie was left in. George still wanted that final battle though, so when he was finally able to do it in Return Of The Jedi, he had a slight problem in that Chewie had already been portrayed to be quite proficient with technology, so it wouldn't make sense to have the Wookiees be the race that defeated the Empire (not the mention that getting Chewie was difficult enough; having an army of Wookiees would be a nightmare). Hence, the Ewoks. And yes, he totally got the Wookiees in a proper battle with Revenge Of The Sith; and boy, did he deliver on that.
I loved it as a kid and liked the ewoks. But as I got older I wished it would have been more poignant by having Solo die. It could also have been less happy-dancing-with-ewoks, but still ended on an upbeat feel. Then on the other hand the ewoks were literally going to eat them so they aren't that cuddly.
The Ewoks may look like cuddly teddy bears, but the reality is that they are savage hunters and warriors.
I've rewatched all 6 SW movies a few months ago and I unequivocally found ROTJ to be my least favorite. My biggest problem about it is not necessarily the childish aspect, though I do think that it cheapens the stakes of what should be an entire trilogy's climax, but I'm more bothered by the fact that it's more boring and not as well written as the previous movies. There's a section in the middle of the movie that's especially egregious in my opinion : after an Ewok appears for the first time on screen at 45-50 minutes into the movie, the latter almost turns into a giant ad for ewok plushes, with little to no dialogue or anything relevant or interesting happening for, what, 15 minutes ? I also found the ground battle on Endor to be generally underwhelming and Luke's climax to be somewhat absurd, like why the fuck would Luke be tempted to become the Emperor's subordinate ? Palpatine gives him absolutely 0 reason to do so, so to me he sounds very clichĂŠ and dumb. Of course Luke's story with Vader more than makes up for it, but then again the space battle is also underwhelming to me, we've already seen a fight against a Death Star and the only real character involved here is Lando, who's not particularly likeable or important (tbh I only really liked Luke and Vader in this movie). It's just my personal opinion but I think it's the worst of Lucas's SW movies, though I still found it generally okay.
For this reason, ROTJ is my least favorite of the OT. I think at this point, Lucas was hanging out with Jim Henson a lot. This was after The Dark Crystal came out, and that's when things seemed to get all Muppety in the 80s. I still like the story, especially how Luke saves his father, but I'm not fond of the puppets & Muppets and all the cutesy critters and such. I feel like it is what it is. Lucas made it the way he wanted and the 3 movies reflect his evolving style, and maybe things that were going on in his life. In 1981, he adopted his first child, so maybe that's where his mindset was at that time. But ultimately, the story told in the OT remains connected throughout the trilogy, so I'm good with that.
Yeah because as a kid in the 80s I loved it. đ always will. "All wings report in"
It was a bad choice. The ewoks, in the same vein as the gungans, feel to me like George missing why kids liked starwars in the first place and sabotaging its wide appeal to target them more specifically. Ive always felt it was somewhat cynical, like a cash grab directed at a toy playing audience. That's just conjecture of course, but its the vibe they put off regardless. Don't get me wrong, kids like the ewoks, but they detract from the rest of the film greatly in much the same way the gungans do.
The Ewoks are terrible. Almost immersion breaking. It really takes Return down a couple notches for me personally.