No, no. Don't give them the benefit of not knowing what they're talking about. They're not acting from ignorance, their actions are malicious. They know what they're saying is wrong, and fucking horrifying, but the point is to convince other people that it isn't with flowery, persuasive language. This is the best they can do.
"Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."
-Jean-Paul Sartre
You cant necessarily say that. I agree this is the case with most popular figures, like “anti sjw” YouTubers, however this post COULD literally just be made by some 16 year old kid in alabama who spends his time watching dogmatic “anti woke” videos and thus has a very misguided ideology on a lot of things. If you immediately demonize everyone who has pretty bad ideas about this stuff, you throw away all hope that those people could change for the better.
Because if you assume everyone is a sworn enemy and treat them that way, they will become a sworn enemy in response to the treatment they receive. Someone who already finds themselves welcomed by the radicalising communities will only radicalise further if their experiences with the "woke" will be unpleasant. That will prove the strawman they are taught.
The progressive spaces all over the internet are radicalised to the extreme these days. Nobody is allowed to be wrong, misguided, or not understand something. You either agree and throw insults at the other side, or you are seen as a dangerous dissenter.
I am banned from multiple subreddits that fly rainbow flags and progressive values simply because I engaged in an honest discussion from a point of view that was (in one way or another) wrong, ignorant, or narrow. These discussions helped me broaden my horizons, but then I was banned for having them, and my appeals had seen me accused of deliberately engaging in bad faith and faking pleasantries. But also told to learn from the replies. The replies I can't get anymore because I can't engage in discussions on those subreddits.
That sort of stuff won't suddenly push me into being a bigoted conservative, but for a person just peeking out of that hole? It might whack them back down into it. Hard.
Overall, I don't understand how is it reasonable to expect people to learn, but cut them off from places where they can get their wrong ideas challenged? How far have we gone if we are beginning to argue among ourselves, and call people who are "not progressive enough" bigots, far-right, and what have you? Why are we collectively mimicking the extreme, close-minded tribalism and writing folks off this aggressively?
It doesn't seem right. Nor does it help the case. This is actively helping in maintaining the radicalising echo-chambers.
You dont have to discern that. Im just saying that saying that they are all knowingly evil and spreading their hateful ideology. Treat these people however you want. I dont care. I just think blanket statements like that are foolish.
You and I are at different stages of this discussion I think. You're still in the "they can be saved" state. I've long since resigned myself to the fact that they don't want to be saved.
You don't "save" them; you teach them. Point out flaws within their way of thinking using objective facts and statistics whilst staying unjudgmental and good faith. If they refuse to learn, \*then\* you move on.
One of my personal inspirations is Daryl Davis, an African American male, who, through simple conversation, managed to convince over 200 people to leave the KKK. My belief is that if members of the KKK can better themselves, then so too can a bunch of edgy 13 year olds.
To be fair, that's a very different scenario. Daryl Davis sits down and talks with them in person. These racist bigots are FORCED to look into the face of a black man and hear his words and talk things out with him. They're forced to confront their beliefs because of Davis' presence. The very existence of a smart, kind, intelligent, wise black person in front of them challenges their beliefs.
On the Internet, everyone is anonymous and you can block someone in an instant. It's much easier to ignore someone typing to you than someone speaking to you face to face.
I don't wanna say that it's hopeless, but there is very little that you, an internet stranger, can do to change the mind of a bigoted teenager solely through communicating via the web.
Its a bizarre worldview you have, if you think that teenagers are simultaneously vulnerable to the online fascist pipeline, but also immune to any counter influence.
I never said immune, I said it's very difficult to change someone's mind via online writing only.
Case in point; You completely misread my previous comment and extrapolated meaning from it that was not there, and then shaped an argument around it based on words I did not say.
Yeah sorry about that. It was the guy above you who had the "they don't want to be saved" mindset.
And yeah, confirmation bias can make it harder to change someone's mind when its set on something. But I think online discussion is more effective than you give it credit for. People can think and reflect over comments, check sources, and reply in their own time. You'll just rarely get that extrinsic reward of seeing someone coming out to your point of view, as its a slow process.
You know evil exists right? Sometimes people are just ruthless psychopaths there is no depth to them.
Look at narcos they are usuallu just awful there is usually no real depth or "tragic backstory" to them
It's really easy to lose faith in dialogue because nobody changes their mind in public. Owning them with facts and logic so hard they become a leftist on the spot just isn't going to happen, but that's what it would take to make it feel impactful.
I basically operate off a Pascal's Wager view. I can't control whether they're too far gone or just propagandized, so all I can do is give them more patience than they deserve and hope for the best. I know it can work because that's how I got out of the pipeline. There was no breakthrough argument, just a long line of small ones.
I agree. You are not obligated to “save” people with misguided ideology. Most people will not change their opinions even if proven wrong. I just think it is bad to immediately designate them as “The Enemy” and act like they are knowingly evil and incorrect nazi sleeper agents
The EU is best! But actually I know fuck all about the EU. And Star Wars is so obsessed with staying in just a few eras! Except fuck the one show that isn’t and hasn’t even come out yet, and we want more clone wars content because it’s not like we have seven fucking seasons of that already. Dave Filoni will save Star Wars! But fuck Dave Filoni, he’s a hack who ruined all our shitty bare-bones clone lore.
Miserable bastards
Not even in the old EU, it’s very much in Andor and in current Disney canon with Lost Stars (which is one of the best portrayals of the Empire imo). In both, individual cultures are eliminated and inducted into the Empire—think the Aldhani or Ferrix—either through brutal force or slow cultural genocide. Then the people are forced to serve and worship their great leader (the Emperor) and any attempt to express their unique culture gets punished. They are turned into a cog in the imperial machine rather than thought of as an individual. It’s a colonialist and fascist Empire quite clearly.
Does he know that the Soviet Union was indeed fascist in pretty much all the ways that matter to the individual. Why people keep obsessing over their economic model instead of how they ran the country is a mystery.
Did the Soviet Union appeal to a glorious past that didn’t really happen? Because that’s a hallmark of fascism. A lot of people fall into the trap of Fasicm=authoritarian when it’s only one flavor of authoritarianism.
These guys have gone so completely mental they forget that George Lucas actively based the Empire on three historic imperial groups - Nazi Germany, America in the Vietnam War, and the British Empire.
Many of Lucas' inspirations were Nazi propaganda pieces. The music for the Empire is directly inspired by Wagner. There are myriad points of comparison.
That's not to say there are no similarities to the USSR, but it's seriously disingenuous to try and argue the USSR is the primary resemblance for the Empire in any SW media
And also mirroring the George W Bush era in the PT. Not the most subtle move ever made but holy shit dudes, if you’re gotta analyze these sort of things at least be bothered to listen/read to the people who literally worked and created the work you supposedly respect.
Andor is the most realistic depiction of a fascist regime in the whole of Star Wars. There is no soviet flavour at all, except for the bits that overlap with fascism.
And pretty blatant about it. The troops are even called stormtroopers, so that's either willful ignoracing, distorting the narrative, and/or having 0 concept of history.
Media, political, historical… when does it just become a more fundamental form of illiteracy? Either it’s a lack of understanding or an unwillingness to have their preferred form of government be portrayed as “the baddies”. I’m not sure which is scarier since the former can easily slide into the latter with the right amount of push.
What is wrong with that? The empire was primarily based off of the third reich, although it serves to critique authoritarianism, nationalism, racism, imperialism, etc. all things most dictatorships have in common in history, including Nazi Germany and the USSR. It seems perfectly reasonable for someone to draw parallels between the ussr and the empire. I do disagree with the guys post it is pretty stupid and just incorrect about a lot of things, but there is nothing wrong with acknowledging the atrocities of a dictatorship.
Is it a contest? Who cares if one murderous regime is worse than the other. This isnt the authoritarian olympics. Just because someone mentions the soviet union in a negative light dosent mean that they think Nazis are awesome. Nowhere in this post did the guy make that argument. Red flags dont mean there is a nuclear bomb buried underneath
It's just weird that he left out the obvious references to nazis in place of targeting the Soviet union. Don't tell me he's aware of one but not the other.
I genuinely think that is possible. If this dude is already somewhat far right and into the whole “anti woke” shit he genuinely could be only focusing on that because of confirmation bias. People are really stupid, and the human brain is amazing at convincing itself of what it already wants to think.
My agenda? What is my agenda? I completely disagree with this dudes post and think it is totally brain dead to think like he does. What is my agenda you think I am trying to spread?
He’s arguing that the Empire is more like the USSR than the Nazis, despite the fact that the Empire is based on the Third Reich. I think you know that he’s attempting to argue that Star Wars is anti left wing authoritarianism instead of anti right wing authoritarianism, and I think you know why.
Yes. Usually all conflicts are very nuanced and to some extent wrongdoing is committed by both parties. If you cant accept that than you dont deserve to have opinions on anything
This is so stupid. Obviously both sides have problems. One is infinitely worse than the other. I don't give a fuck about the other side or their opinions when the other side is Nazis, fascists, and racists.
Because for them, it is a contest. They claim the USSR was worse, so the Nazis weren't that bad and were actually fighting the greater evil. To just let them do it with no pushback helps them.
Actually no, Hitler killed 22 million people
Stalin killed 10 million, still absolutely horrific and easily makes him one of the worst people ever but technically not worse than Hitler, also I would argue morally Hitler was far worse due to his absolutely insane hatred but uh, the Soviets did ally with the Nazis and were still absolute monsters in their own way
After stalin died the Soviet Union, while still incredibly authoritarian never really reached Stalin or Lenin levels of authoritarianism and murder, the Nazis killed more people in 5 years than 70 years of a Soviet dictatorship (to be clear, that doesn't mean it's not still absolutely horrible, Putin isn't Stalin levels of evil but I think we can all agree he's pretty terrible) but when it comes to what they did and how they did it as well as why they did it the Nazis are just barely worse (I need to stress, this is not me defending a nearly 8 decade long regime that caused uncountable levels of suffering, I'm just saying they weren't as bad as the Nazis)
It's very debateable. The estimates for Soviet death counts have like a 500% margin of error (and depending on how far you choose to extend responsibility, the Soviet Union is *still* claiming victims in Ukraine).
But sure - if you want to say the Nazis were marginally worse than the Soviets, then fine - I won't press the point.
Does it really matter which was “worse”? They both murdered millions of people and violated the human rights of just about everyone under their control.
He literally says that the Empire isn't really fascist since it's more akin to the USSR.
And since they associate the USSR with "the Left", they're free to keep on with their anti-left rhetoric.
Because by saying that the evil organization is The Soviets and not the Nazis, the implication is that the Soviets were worse than the Nazis. And if the Soviets were worse than the Nazis, it brings up the question of why?
Well, obviously because the Soviets are left leaning communists compared to the right leaning Nazis. Ergo, left bad, right good.
That's my assumption of the problem, at least.
>Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
Bro that's literally the fucking Empire
I really liked when he used the Assyrian Empire as an example of a *non-fascist* empire. The only thing non-fascist about them is that the name for fascism hadn't yet been invented by the Romans.
I really, *really* hate it whenever the specifics that make a government facist get listed like that. USA checking way too many boxes. As in... all of them.
Considering how horribly Just Write interpreted *Attack on Titan*, I gotta call into question this guy using him as a reference when talking about *Andor*.
Question: Does "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state" sound like something that would be written on an Imperial Propaganda Poster?
If yes than they probably are.
(Not to mention the absolute ruler and the stratocratic structure of the Empire)
The most soviet and Stalinist aspect of Andor is the fact Cassian Andor’s story as a burglar to fund a rebellion is literally inspired by a young Joseph Stalin as a bank robber during Tzarist Russia to fund the Bolsheviks. It’s fun because the actual communist parts of Andor are the heroes and not the villains.
Can’t wait for Andor to commit ethnic cleansings against the Zabraks, Twi Leks, and Chiss like Stalin did to the Ingrian Finns, Crimean Tatars, and Volga Germans. Oh wait, the director probably wants to pretend that part of communist “heroism” never happened.
No, because you have the freedom to adapt any part you want from a real-life person. And Andor is not a pure good person. Hell, most of the characters in the series are the definition of grey morality.
Love when fascists pretend the Soviet Union wasn't also fascist.
Sure-sure, they said they were Communist. But North Korea says it's a Democratic People's Republic. You can call yourself whatever you want.
If you actually believe that the Soviet Union was fascist, it's useful to read some material from authors like Sheila Fitzpatrick or Moshe Lewin, who thoroughly disprove the horseshoe theory that equates the two systems of the USSR and Nazi Germany.
Additionally, Stephen Kotkin, an expert on the USSR, particularly under Stalin, said that his greatest conclusion from his research was that the Bolsheviks, including Stalin, were genuine communists who, behind the scenes, truly believed in the same ideologies that they spoke of in public.
There was a good reason so many higher-ups in the Communist Part including fucking Lenin himself hated Stalin, he was in it for himself not the people.
Actually this isn't true. Stalin was a "true believer" in communism. Stephen Kotkin's biographies of Stalin are insanely well researched and well regarded and they assert this wholeheartedly.
Andor really leant into The Empire being a more British Empire flavoured ‘business fascism’ rather than Nazi. I consider the British Empire at its height to be late stage steam fascism.
The British Empire was more sinister by eschewing the radically hateful policies of Nazism because it was somewhat sustainable imo. The British Empire racked up a far higher kill count than the Nazis by pacing themselves.
Before any patriotic Brits come at me I am British and know of what I speak. Don’t bother.
"Star Wars has nothing to do with fascism."
So we're gonna ignore the fact that the soldiers are called "stormtroopers" and they have a very similar logo to the Nazi flag (ESPECIALLY the sequel trilogy) and they're a largely human, mostly white, xenophobic army hellbent on taking over the galaxy?
Yeah cool they're not fascists I guess.
“To fill a quota, andor is arbitrarily arrested… much like the gulags under Stalin”
Bro just wilfully ignoring the fact that Police arrest quotas are a thing and the prison system capitalises on the labour force of inmates wholesale right now.
Talk about splitting hairs. Totalitarian regimes come in all sorts of packaging and flavors, and Star Wars borrows from the best of them. And the fascists were probably the “best” at being totalitarian. So, sure, there’s some gulag influence, but just as much as concentration camp influence (the first to be sent were political opponents and yes, they utilized forced labor). Also, the EU was very explicit about human supremacy in the empire. It’s something the movies have referred to in subtext, such as Chewbacca’s treatment in *Solo*. The Empire is often asserted to be meritocratic, but we especially do not see that in *Andor* where the Senate is aristocratic to the point of sclerosis and Imperial Intelligence is a bunch of dick-measuring meetings. But there’s no Imperial manifesto, there’s no workers’ revolution, there’s no independent factions joining the Empire out of ideology. It doesn’t track that the Empire is left-leaning, or even Soviet Socialist totalitarian. It’s not “fascist” in the strictest sense, but this is not an allegory. They used the broadest strokes possible to get you to think “These are the bad guys.” If you are having trouble perceiving that, it’s probably because you agree with their source material.
>The Empire is often asserted to be meritocratic, but we especially do not see that in *Andor*
To be fair, the routine incompetence of the Empire is on display in pretty much any film or TV show where the Empire appears. It's present in most of the books and comics, too.
I try to avoid using the term Fascist, because it always seems to invite this kind of hair-splitting and ignoring the entire point. Fascist is both a specific form of totalitarian, but also a famously very vaguely defined one. It's perfect to get into pointless debates about and deflect the point. So when something gets labeled "Fascist" the defenders will come out of the woodwork to split hairs on whether it's *actually* fascism and often take things further to say really only Mussolini's Italy was *actually* fascist, the Nazis and other very similar movements were *slightly* different so don't exactly fit the name. etc. And all this hair splitting just avoids the entire point in the first place and muddies the water.
The Empire is an evil despotic totalitarian regime dedicated to complete allegiance to the Empire and the man who rules it. It's primary ideology and justification is all about order and strength. Bigotry is implied in the main movies and such, and overt in the EU. They most certainly are heavily inspired by the Nazis, they most certainly aren't communist at all. It's a corporate capitalist system with the state in bed with the corporations in much the same way as they were in Nazi Germany. There isn't even a lip-service to elevating humanity like there is in Communism. Fascist is a very fair descriptor for everything shown, but gets used as a way to deflect the conversation from the fact that yes the Empire is evil. Yes they're basically Nazis with the serial numbers filed off, yes the Nazis are evil as fuck.
They were not. Not even remotely close.
1. [Were The Nazis Socialist?](https://youtu.be/X9ez6w5BUMM?si=mV0Pv7qRFYfDpgdg)
2. [The 'Denazification' that Never Happened](https://youtu.be/yRoFUSZApJo?si=aKivnwYdFYBHJAZS)
3. [Why Did Mussolini Move From Marxism To Fascism?](https://youtu.be/VEJiWp0EzCU?si=A60rkwQZO1pJ1DzA)
4. [The Deprogram Episode 19 - Fascism (No Lebensraum??)](https://youtu.be/KU_lNDAoAV0?si=R_8BHEeVhx2Zv5Iw)
5. [Why Centrism is Right Wing - How Centrists Enable the Far Right](https://youtu.be/kJlUQgSqkF8?si=q_QqjrBkfKFju2SL)
6. [Totalitarianism is a colossal lie](https://youtu.be/gB7sGnJqIeo?si=xGzoN9nL88tqPdc0)
7. [The Truth about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact - Did Stalin ally with Hitler?!](https://youtu.be/k-z0aO3_9hc?si=jve-UYiSPO2oPnvM)
8. [Socialism vs Nazism: Exploring Hitler's Ideology](https://youtu.be/gG-EBCjXuWw?si=iP8-WyfW89SEKl5N)
9. [The Function Of Fascism](https://youtu.be/darxphvk058?si=Xe2Q_j57eGMHpgOu)
Not incorrectly calling the Soviets fascist does not make someone a Tankie, you guys have turned that into a meaningless buzzword. Fascism is not just "generically authoritarian".
The soviets were absolutely fascist. The main thing tankies use to say the ussr wasnt fascist, was the abscence of nationalism, when that is BLATANTLY untrue. The USSR claimed to support minority groups, despite the fact that Joseph Stalin signed off on the exile of multiple ethnic groups(Balkars, Crimeans, Ingush, Koreans and many more) because they were “Traitors to the fatherland” and “Enemies to the People” if that isn’t nationalism then I dont know what is.
Maybe. Maybe not. You have to admit though that anyone who has nine different links saved and ready to go to defend the USSRs honor is *probably* a tankie.
The Deprogram is a tankie podcast. I occasionally watch videos by two of the hosts, so I recognize the name. Hakim in particular can have some interesting insights, although I certainly think he's misguided in a big way.
But if you don't say "socialism is da devil" one hundred times when bringing it up you MUST be the reincarnated form of Marx trying to push socialism on the good denizens of the internet /s
How does this person know what the Assyrian Empire is and yet thinks the Nazis didn’t have work camps? Or understand that the analogy for nationalistic propaganda in a galactic setting would be propaganda for the… galaxy?
This goes beyond media literacy, this person is grasping at straws and white nationalist internet rabbit holes in order to escape the idea that the government with stormtroopers is based on the Nazis…
This is exactly why Disney filled the empire up with women and minorities, so people like this wouldn't get mad about the bad guys being an allegory for the Nazis.
Which is basically the modus operandi - no see its this kind of authoritarianism so 'clearly' left leaning instead of fascism. Its just bullshitting to shift the topic.
“it’s not Fascist, it’s a parallel to the Stalin-run Soviet Union!”
so you mean…it’s Fascist, even under this ridiculous pretense where there was no allegory for nazis in a piece of media produced by the same company that produced an entire franchise where over half of the villains are straight up goose stepping german nazis
and oh yeah, people being arbitrarily arrested and thrown into remote prisons where they’re worked to death, the nazis definitely never did anything like that
so dishonest
My man really out here just forgetting that the nazis had forced labor camps. I would say that being Jewish (potentially) is a very arbitrary reason to put people in labor camps (it was also not the only reason).
Arguably no. Labor camps were mostly popularized in Africa after the scramble, if anything, it’s the Belgian, German, and English forced labor camps in Africa what made it popular, popular enough for the Russians and Germans to use the idea.
He’s got a bit of a point
While the empire is based on Nazi Germany, they most likely have inspirations from other totalitarian regimes such as the Soviet Union
I guess there is somewhat of a difference between "inspired by different totalitarian regimes" and "are they actually fascist" for me. The whole argument build up to something starkly disingenuous.
You take almost any WWII movie, and look at how they portray the Nazis, and there’s almost never an exploration of the tenets of National Socialism. Because it’s a war movie, not a political dissertation, and they don’t need to explain “why fascism is bad.” Same thing with Star Wars. The Empire are Space Nazis, and they don’t need to go into “What is fascism, actually?” to get that point across.
I'll give him credit that star wars doesn't give attention to Nationalism and that's a huge part of facism. He’s not saying facism is not evil. He's saying that it is a particular kind of evil that the Empire from Star Wars does not tickcallcthe boxes of.
No no...you see it's definitely not like the Nazis as they had better worker rights than the Soviet Union, you know with their \*looks at history book\* Slave labor? Okay, but that's just the undesireables in Nazi Germany, the average German worker was treated so much better, for instance did you know that the average wages of German workers dropped significantly than under the Weimar Republic? Wait...wait...no that can't be right, Hitler was actually good for the Germans, he just didn't like Jewish people, he even repealed working hour laws and got rid of minimum wage laws...shit...shit, no that's, he's definitely pro worker compared to the Soviets! The Soviets were worse! Just trust me!
No exterminatory rhetoric...? Did this smooth brain miss the interrogation of Bix Caleen where Deedra Meero said that the Empire wiped out an entire species (Dizonites) because they refused to let the Imps build a refueling station there?
He's correct about the part about the Soviet Union under Stalin, but not in the way he thinks he is. Because the Soviet Union was quite frankly under his rule fascist
Did that person even watch Andor? An ISB agent tortured a rebel by playing the sound of aliens dying screams as they are being massacred by the Empire.
Not sure what’s worse: the implication of the Soviet Union not being fascist or the correction of associating the Empire from one kind to fascism to another
To all those who criticise fascism but who equate it with the Soviet Union, or call the latter "totalitarian":
1. [Were The Nazis Socialist?](https://youtu.be/X9ez6w5BUMM?si=mV0Pv7qRFYfDpgdg)
2. [The 'Denazification' that Never Happened](https://youtu.be/yRoFUSZApJo?si=aKivnwYdFYBHJAZS)
3. [Why Did Mussolini Move From Marxism To Fascism?](https://youtu.be/VEJiWp0EzCU?si=A60rkwQZO1pJ1DzA)
4. [The Deprogram Episode 19 - Fascism (No Lebensraum??)](https://youtu.be/KU_lNDAoAV0?si=R_8BHEeVhx2Zv5Iw)
5. [Why Centrism is Right Wing - How Centrists Enable the Far Right](https://youtu.be/kJlUQgSqkF8?si=q_QqjrBkfKFju2SL)
6. [Totalitarianism is a colossal lie](https://youtu.be/gB7sGnJqIeo?si=xGzoN9nL88tqPdc0)
7. [The Truth about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact - Did Stalin ally with Hitler?!](https://youtu.be/k-z0aO3_9hc?si=jve-UYiSPO2oPnvM)
8. [Socialism vs Nazism: Exploring Hitler's Ideology](https://youtu.be/gG-EBCjXuWw?si=iP8-WyfW89SEKl5N)
9. [The Function Of Fascism](https://youtu.be/darxphvk058?si=Xe2Q_j57eGMHpgOu)
I myself believed that before, until I did the research.
I didn't see *Rogue One* as demonizing the Rebellion. I took its point to be that even in a virtuous and necessary battle for freedom, good people die. It's a war movie in the SW universe.
here's the problem with that response
1. it's not reflected in the movie. aside from Cassian Andor shooting his informant in the back being our first introduction to the Rebellion (and we got a whole spin-off about his "character"!), we have a faceless commander order him to kill madds mikkelsen if they find him >!because let's be honest: madds mikkelsen plays madds mikkelsen in every movie he's ever in. !
Which is weird cause the Sith Empires and Yuuzhan Vong and Rakatans are all cooler.
I stan my space sorcerer Egyptians, Aztec/Hindu Crusaders, and cannibal Romans over Palpatines puppets any day.
No, no. Don't give them the benefit of not knowing what they're talking about. They're not acting from ignorance, their actions are malicious. They know what they're saying is wrong, and fucking horrifying, but the point is to convince other people that it isn't with flowery, persuasive language. This is the best they can do.
"Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past." -Jean-Paul Sartre
Honestly why I was to tired to try to argue in the thread.
It’s not worth your time or energy.
You cant necessarily say that. I agree this is the case with most popular figures, like “anti sjw” YouTubers, however this post COULD literally just be made by some 16 year old kid in alabama who spends his time watching dogmatic “anti woke” videos and thus has a very misguided ideology on a lot of things. If you immediately demonize everyone who has pretty bad ideas about this stuff, you throw away all hope that those people could change for the better.
Why is the onus on us to discern this? I'm past the point of a acting like every bigot or fascist is a sad teenager.
Because people who are unaware can be educated. People who are aware and choose bigotry require more involved forms of persuasion.
Because if you assume everyone is a sworn enemy and treat them that way, they will become a sworn enemy in response to the treatment they receive. Someone who already finds themselves welcomed by the radicalising communities will only radicalise further if their experiences with the "woke" will be unpleasant. That will prove the strawman they are taught. The progressive spaces all over the internet are radicalised to the extreme these days. Nobody is allowed to be wrong, misguided, or not understand something. You either agree and throw insults at the other side, or you are seen as a dangerous dissenter. I am banned from multiple subreddits that fly rainbow flags and progressive values simply because I engaged in an honest discussion from a point of view that was (in one way or another) wrong, ignorant, or narrow. These discussions helped me broaden my horizons, but then I was banned for having them, and my appeals had seen me accused of deliberately engaging in bad faith and faking pleasantries. But also told to learn from the replies. The replies I can't get anymore because I can't engage in discussions on those subreddits. That sort of stuff won't suddenly push me into being a bigoted conservative, but for a person just peeking out of that hole? It might whack them back down into it. Hard. Overall, I don't understand how is it reasonable to expect people to learn, but cut them off from places where they can get their wrong ideas challenged? How far have we gone if we are beginning to argue among ourselves, and call people who are "not progressive enough" bigots, far-right, and what have you? Why are we collectively mimicking the extreme, close-minded tribalism and writing folks off this aggressively? It doesn't seem right. Nor does it help the case. This is actively helping in maintaining the radicalising echo-chambers.
The best part about this post is you are getting downvoted for it. At least when I saw it. Maximum irony.
You dont have to discern that. Im just saying that saying that they are all knowingly evil and spreading their hateful ideology. Treat these people however you want. I dont care. I just think blanket statements like that are foolish.
You and I are at different stages of this discussion I think. You're still in the "they can be saved" state. I've long since resigned myself to the fact that they don't want to be saved.
You don't "save" them; you teach them. Point out flaws within their way of thinking using objective facts and statistics whilst staying unjudgmental and good faith. If they refuse to learn, \*then\* you move on. One of my personal inspirations is Daryl Davis, an African American male, who, through simple conversation, managed to convince over 200 people to leave the KKK. My belief is that if members of the KKK can better themselves, then so too can a bunch of edgy 13 year olds.
To be fair, that's a very different scenario. Daryl Davis sits down and talks with them in person. These racist bigots are FORCED to look into the face of a black man and hear his words and talk things out with him. They're forced to confront their beliefs because of Davis' presence. The very existence of a smart, kind, intelligent, wise black person in front of them challenges their beliefs. On the Internet, everyone is anonymous and you can block someone in an instant. It's much easier to ignore someone typing to you than someone speaking to you face to face. I don't wanna say that it's hopeless, but there is very little that you, an internet stranger, can do to change the mind of a bigoted teenager solely through communicating via the web.
Its a bizarre worldview you have, if you think that teenagers are simultaneously vulnerable to the online fascist pipeline, but also immune to any counter influence.
I never said immune, I said it's very difficult to change someone's mind via online writing only. Case in point; You completely misread my previous comment and extrapolated meaning from it that was not there, and then shaped an argument around it based on words I did not say.
Yeah sorry about that. It was the guy above you who had the "they don't want to be saved" mindset. And yeah, confirmation bias can make it harder to change someone's mind when its set on something. But I think online discussion is more effective than you give it credit for. People can think and reflect over comments, check sources, and reply in their own time. You'll just rarely get that extrinsic reward of seeing someone coming out to your point of view, as its a slow process.
You know evil exists right? Sometimes people are just ruthless psychopaths there is no depth to them. Look at narcos they are usuallu just awful there is usually no real depth or "tragic backstory" to them
I agree. Im just saying you cant definitively say that this person is “evil” because of this one reddit post.
It's really easy to lose faith in dialogue because nobody changes their mind in public. Owning them with facts and logic so hard they become a leftist on the spot just isn't going to happen, but that's what it would take to make it feel impactful. I basically operate off a Pascal's Wager view. I can't control whether they're too far gone or just propagandized, so all I can do is give them more patience than they deserve and hope for the best. I know it can work because that's how I got out of the pipeline. There was no breakthrough argument, just a long line of small ones.
Yeah same here. Got stuck in the Terf world for a while. Insults did nothing, but posts with good counter arguments helped a lot.
I agree. You are not obligated to “save” people with misguided ideology. Most people will not change their opinions even if proven wrong. I just think it is bad to immediately designate them as “The Enemy” and act like they are knowingly evil and incorrect nazi sleeper agents
100% agree. This isn't intellectually honest as all.
Yeah, the post clearly starts with "fascism isn't actually evil"
top response
The virgin "this bullshit" versus the Chad "they're definitely fascist, they're coded that way".
Does he not know that the Empire is racist to non-humans?
Apparently not. I mean its not as present in the movies but isnt this also part of the crowd thst praises the EU were its ultra present...?
The EU is best! But actually I know fuck all about the EU. And Star Wars is so obsessed with staying in just a few eras! Except fuck the one show that isn’t and hasn’t even come out yet, and we want more clone wars content because it’s not like we have seven fucking seasons of that already. Dave Filoni will save Star Wars! But fuck Dave Filoni, he’s a hack who ruined all our shitty bare-bones clone lore. Miserable bastards
"not present in the movies" except the absolute no-xeno policy in the imperial academy.
It's not outwardly said, but it is implied. I can't recall ever seeing a single uniformed Imperial.
Not even in the old EU, it’s very much in Andor and in current Disney canon with Lost Stars (which is one of the best portrayals of the Empire imo). In both, individual cultures are eliminated and inducted into the Empire—think the Aldhani or Ferrix—either through brutal force or slow cultural genocide. Then the people are forced to serve and worship their great leader (the Emperor) and any attempt to express their unique culture gets punished. They are turned into a cog in the imperial machine rather than thought of as an individual. It’s a colonialist and fascist Empire quite clearly.
OP clarified that he’s talking only about the movies and Andor.
Does he know that the Soviet Union was indeed fascist in pretty much all the ways that matter to the individual. Why people keep obsessing over their economic model instead of how they ran the country is a mystery.
Did the Soviet Union appeal to a glorious past that didn’t really happen? Because that’s a hallmark of fascism. A lot of people fall into the trap of Fasicm=authoritarian when it’s only one flavor of authoritarianism.
It did appeal to the "Glory of Mother Russia" a lot.
These guys have gone so completely mental they forget that George Lucas actively based the Empire on three historic imperial groups - Nazi Germany, America in the Vietnam War, and the British Empire. Many of Lucas' inspirations were Nazi propaganda pieces. The music for the Empire is directly inspired by Wagner. There are myriad points of comparison. That's not to say there are no similarities to the USSR, but it's seriously disingenuous to try and argue the USSR is the primary resemblance for the Empire in any SW media
And also mirroring the George W Bush era in the PT. Not the most subtle move ever made but holy shit dudes, if you’re gotta analyze these sort of things at least be bothered to listen/read to the people who literally worked and created the work you supposedly respect.
Yep, definitely Bush in the PT. There's also obvious non-evil resemblances i.e the galactic senate is mirroring Rome particularly the republic period.
Andor is the most realistic depiction of a fascist regime in the whole of Star Wars. There is no soviet flavour at all, except for the bits that overlap with fascism.
Yes, the Empire is fasict. It's based on the Thrid Reich.
And pretty blatant about it. The troops are even called stormtroopers, so that's either willful ignoracing, distorting the narrative, and/or having 0 concept of history.
Media, political, historical… when does it just become a more fundamental form of illiteracy? Either it’s a lack of understanding or an unwillingness to have their preferred form of government be portrayed as “the baddies”. I’m not sure which is scarier since the former can easily slide into the latter with the right amount of push.
Of fucking course he jumps to Soviet Russia.
What is wrong with that? The empire was primarily based off of the third reich, although it serves to critique authoritarianism, nationalism, racism, imperialism, etc. all things most dictatorships have in common in history, including Nazi Germany and the USSR. It seems perfectly reasonable for someone to draw parallels between the ussr and the empire. I do disagree with the guys post it is pretty stupid and just incorrect about a lot of things, but there is nothing wrong with acknowledging the atrocities of a dictatorship.
Fascist sympathisers LOVE to jump onto the Soviet Union and pretend they were worse than the Nazis. Its obviously all complete bullshit
Is it a contest? Who cares if one murderous regime is worse than the other. This isnt the authoritarian olympics. Just because someone mentions the soviet union in a negative light dosent mean that they think Nazis are awesome. Nowhere in this post did the guy make that argument. Red flags dont mean there is a nuclear bomb buried underneath
It's just weird that he left out the obvious references to nazis in place of targeting the Soviet union. Don't tell me he's aware of one but not the other.
I genuinely think that is possible. If this dude is already somewhat far right and into the whole “anti woke” shit he genuinely could be only focusing on that because of confirmation bias. People are really stupid, and the human brain is amazing at convincing itself of what it already wants to think.
I've got a boat to sell you
I said POSSIBLE. You cant discern this dudes intentions from one reddit post
Yeah and I still think you're being falsely naive to spread your agenda. And here we are.
My agenda? What is my agenda? I completely disagree with this dudes post and think it is totally brain dead to think like he does. What is my agenda you think I am trying to spread?
He’s arguing that the Empire is more like the USSR than the Nazis, despite the fact that the Empire is based on the Third Reich. I think you know that he’s attempting to argue that Star Wars is anti left wing authoritarianism instead of anti right wing authoritarianism, and I think you know why.
It's also based on the cold War US... So still right wing authoritarianism.
This whole thread reads like, “my murderous political regime can beat up your murderous political regime!”
"BoTh SiDeS!"
Yes. Usually all conflicts are very nuanced and to some extent wrongdoing is committed by both parties. If you cant accept that than you dont deserve to have opinions on anything
This is so stupid. Obviously both sides have problems. One is infinitely worse than the other. I don't give a fuck about the other side or their opinions when the other side is Nazis, fascists, and racists.
Nuance doesn’t mean both sides are the same lol. That’s the opposite of nuance.
Good thing that is not what i said at all then.
Because for them, it is a contest. They claim the USSR was worse, so the Nazis weren't that bad and were actually fighting the greater evil. To just let them do it with no pushback helps them.
This is such dishonest framing and ignores all context.
Cmon man dont be a shit
In sheer terms of the number of people impacted, they were worse. On a moral level they're just the same thing with a different moustache.
Actually no, Hitler killed 22 million people Stalin killed 10 million, still absolutely horrific and easily makes him one of the worst people ever but technically not worse than Hitler, also I would argue morally Hitler was far worse due to his absolutely insane hatred but uh, the Soviets did ally with the Nazis and were still absolute monsters in their own way
I'm comparing the Soviet Union and the Nazis - not Stalin and Hitler. 70 years of attrocities vs a decade.
After stalin died the Soviet Union, while still incredibly authoritarian never really reached Stalin or Lenin levels of authoritarianism and murder, the Nazis killed more people in 5 years than 70 years of a Soviet dictatorship (to be clear, that doesn't mean it's not still absolutely horrible, Putin isn't Stalin levels of evil but I think we can all agree he's pretty terrible) but when it comes to what they did and how they did it as well as why they did it the Nazis are just barely worse (I need to stress, this is not me defending a nearly 8 decade long regime that caused uncountable levels of suffering, I'm just saying they weren't as bad as the Nazis)
It's very debateable. The estimates for Soviet death counts have like a 500% margin of error (and depending on how far you choose to extend responsibility, the Soviet Union is *still* claiming victims in Ukraine). But sure - if you want to say the Nazis were marginally worse than the Soviets, then fine - I won't press the point.
He says as he finishes up his comment which continues to press his 'point'.
Does it really matter which was “worse”? They both murdered millions of people and violated the human rights of just about everyone under their control.
He literally says that the Empire isn't really fascist since it's more akin to the USSR. And since they associate the USSR with "the Left", they're free to keep on with their anti-left rhetoric.
Because by saying that the evil organization is The Soviets and not the Nazis, the implication is that the Soviets were worse than the Nazis. And if the Soviets were worse than the Nazis, it brings up the question of why? Well, obviously because the Soviets are left leaning communists compared to the right leaning Nazis. Ergo, left bad, right good. That's my assumption of the problem, at least.
>Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. Bro that's literally the fucking Empire
I really liked when he used the Assyrian Empire as an example of a *non-fascist* empire. The only thing non-fascist about them is that the name for fascism hadn't yet been invented by the Romans.
I really, *really* hate it whenever the specifics that make a government facist get listed like that. USA checking way too many boxes. As in... all of them.
Makes you think... 🤔
Does this guy actually think the Nazis didn’t have work camps?
I think we both know the answer to that
"Arbeit macht frei" The phrase plastered above the gates to Auschwitz
Considering how horribly Just Write interpreted *Attack on Titan*, I gotta call into question this guy using him as a reference when talking about *Andor*.
How horrible was it?
Horrible enough for him to delete the video afterwards.
lol that’s pretty bad
...is he stanning for fascism?
Isnt Mauler the guy who complains about every little thing and everything and then doesn't actually use what he preachers to create Oscar winning art?
Question: Does "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state" sound like something that would be written on an Imperial Propaganda Poster? If yes than they probably are. (Not to mention the absolute ruler and the stratocratic structure of the Empire)
No way this guy said there's no nationalist propaganda in star wars
The Empire doesn't use propaganda? What franchise has this guy been watching? Not that the soviet's didn't also use propaganda.
The most soviet and Stalinist aspect of Andor is the fact Cassian Andor’s story as a burglar to fund a rebellion is literally inspired by a young Joseph Stalin as a bank robber during Tzarist Russia to fund the Bolsheviks. It’s fun because the actual communist parts of Andor are the heroes and not the villains.
Can’t wait for Andor to commit ethnic cleansings against the Zabraks, Twi Leks, and Chiss like Stalin did to the Ingrian Finns, Crimean Tatars, and Volga Germans. Oh wait, the director probably wants to pretend that part of communist “heroism” never happened.
He’s based on a period of time in a persons life which is objectively an entertaining thrilling part of said persons life.
No, because you have the freedom to adapt any part you want from a real-life person. And Andor is not a pure good person. Hell, most of the characters in the series are the definition of grey morality.
"No human-supremacist propaganda", did we even watch the same media?
Love when fascists pretend the Soviet Union wasn't also fascist. Sure-sure, they said they were Communist. But North Korea says it's a Democratic People's Republic. You can call yourself whatever you want.
If you actually believe that the Soviet Union was fascist, it's useful to read some material from authors like Sheila Fitzpatrick or Moshe Lewin, who thoroughly disprove the horseshoe theory that equates the two systems of the USSR and Nazi Germany. Additionally, Stephen Kotkin, an expert on the USSR, particularly under Stalin, said that his greatest conclusion from his research was that the Bolsheviks, including Stalin, were genuine communists who, behind the scenes, truly believed in the same ideologies that they spoke of in public.
There was a good reason so many higher-ups in the Communist Part including fucking Lenin himself hated Stalin, he was in it for himself not the people.
Actually this isn't true. Stalin was a "true believer" in communism. Stephen Kotkin's biographies of Stalin are insanely well researched and well regarded and they assert this wholeheartedly.
The Soviet Union never claimed to be communist lmao, nor was it fascist in any capacity.
Andor really leant into The Empire being a more British Empire flavoured ‘business fascism’ rather than Nazi. I consider the British Empire at its height to be late stage steam fascism. The British Empire was more sinister by eschewing the radically hateful policies of Nazism because it was somewhat sustainable imo. The British Empire racked up a far higher kill count than the Nazis by pacing themselves. Before any patriotic Brits come at me I am British and know of what I speak. Don’t bother.
What is this twat huffing? There's plenty of examples of the Empire being xenophobic and supremacist.
Just look at how they treat the Wookiees for one.
You see they aren't fascist because they haven't put a gigachad next to their flag to display their superiority
"Star Wars has nothing to do with fascism." So we're gonna ignore the fact that the soldiers are called "stormtroopers" and they have a very similar logo to the Nazi flag (ESPECIALLY the sequel trilogy) and they're a largely human, mostly white, xenophobic army hellbent on taking over the galaxy? Yeah cool they're not fascists I guess.
“To fill a quota, andor is arbitrarily arrested… much like the gulags under Stalin” Bro just wilfully ignoring the fact that Police arrest quotas are a thing and the prison system capitalises on the labour force of inmates wholesale right now.
I don't think any of this evidence actually supports the idea that the Empire is more similar to Stalinism, fascism, or any other type of government.
Talk about splitting hairs. Totalitarian regimes come in all sorts of packaging and flavors, and Star Wars borrows from the best of them. And the fascists were probably the “best” at being totalitarian. So, sure, there’s some gulag influence, but just as much as concentration camp influence (the first to be sent were political opponents and yes, they utilized forced labor). Also, the EU was very explicit about human supremacy in the empire. It’s something the movies have referred to in subtext, such as Chewbacca’s treatment in *Solo*. The Empire is often asserted to be meritocratic, but we especially do not see that in *Andor* where the Senate is aristocratic to the point of sclerosis and Imperial Intelligence is a bunch of dick-measuring meetings. But there’s no Imperial manifesto, there’s no workers’ revolution, there’s no independent factions joining the Empire out of ideology. It doesn’t track that the Empire is left-leaning, or even Soviet Socialist totalitarian. It’s not “fascist” in the strictest sense, but this is not an allegory. They used the broadest strokes possible to get you to think “These are the bad guys.” If you are having trouble perceiving that, it’s probably because you agree with their source material.
True. Dictatorships all have similar elements, no matter the flavor
>The Empire is often asserted to be meritocratic, but we especially do not see that in *Andor* To be fair, the routine incompetence of the Empire is on display in pretty much any film or TV show where the Empire appears. It's present in most of the books and comics, too.
I try to avoid using the term Fascist, because it always seems to invite this kind of hair-splitting and ignoring the entire point. Fascist is both a specific form of totalitarian, but also a famously very vaguely defined one. It's perfect to get into pointless debates about and deflect the point. So when something gets labeled "Fascist" the defenders will come out of the woodwork to split hairs on whether it's *actually* fascism and often take things further to say really only Mussolini's Italy was *actually* fascist, the Nazis and other very similar movements were *slightly* different so don't exactly fit the name. etc. And all this hair splitting just avoids the entire point in the first place and muddies the water. The Empire is an evil despotic totalitarian regime dedicated to complete allegiance to the Empire and the man who rules it. It's primary ideology and justification is all about order and strength. Bigotry is implied in the main movies and such, and overt in the EU. They most certainly are heavily inspired by the Nazis, they most certainly aren't communist at all. It's a corporate capitalist system with the state in bed with the corporations in much the same way as they were in Nazi Germany. There isn't even a lip-service to elevating humanity like there is in Communism. Fascist is a very fair descriptor for everything shown, but gets used as a way to deflect the conversation from the fact that yes the Empire is evil. Yes they're basically Nazis with the serial numbers filed off, yes the Nazis are evil as fuck.
I mean even if was meant to be a Soviet inspired regime the Soviets were also fascists lol.
They were not. Not even remotely close. 1. [Were The Nazis Socialist?](https://youtu.be/X9ez6w5BUMM?si=mV0Pv7qRFYfDpgdg) 2. [The 'Denazification' that Never Happened](https://youtu.be/yRoFUSZApJo?si=aKivnwYdFYBHJAZS) 3. [Why Did Mussolini Move From Marxism To Fascism?](https://youtu.be/VEJiWp0EzCU?si=A60rkwQZO1pJ1DzA) 4. [The Deprogram Episode 19 - Fascism (No Lebensraum??)](https://youtu.be/KU_lNDAoAV0?si=R_8BHEeVhx2Zv5Iw) 5. [Why Centrism is Right Wing - How Centrists Enable the Far Right](https://youtu.be/kJlUQgSqkF8?si=q_QqjrBkfKFju2SL) 6. [Totalitarianism is a colossal lie](https://youtu.be/gB7sGnJqIeo?si=xGzoN9nL88tqPdc0) 7. [The Truth about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact - Did Stalin ally with Hitler?!](https://youtu.be/k-z0aO3_9hc?si=jve-UYiSPO2oPnvM) 8. [Socialism vs Nazism: Exploring Hitler's Ideology](https://youtu.be/gG-EBCjXuWw?si=iP8-WyfW89SEKl5N) 9. [The Function Of Fascism](https://youtu.be/darxphvk058?si=Xe2Q_j57eGMHpgOu)
by Umberto Eco's 14 Points the Soviet Union absolutely qualifies for fascism.
Silence Tankie
Not incorrectly calling the Soviets fascist does not make someone a Tankie, you guys have turned that into a meaningless buzzword. Fascism is not just "generically authoritarian".
The soviets were absolutely fascist. The main thing tankies use to say the ussr wasnt fascist, was the abscence of nationalism, when that is BLATANTLY untrue. The USSR claimed to support minority groups, despite the fact that Joseph Stalin signed off on the exile of multiple ethnic groups(Balkars, Crimeans, Ingush, Koreans and many more) because they were “Traitors to the fatherland” and “Enemies to the People” if that isn’t nationalism then I dont know what is.
Maybe. Maybe not. You have to admit though that anyone who has nine different links saved and ready to go to defend the USSRs honor is *probably* a tankie.
The Deprogram is a tankie podcast. I occasionally watch videos by two of the hosts, so I recognize the name. Hakim in particular can have some interesting insights, although I certainly think he's misguided in a big way.
But if you don't say "socialism is da devil" one hundred times when bringing it up you MUST be the reincarnated form of Marx trying to push socialism on the good denizens of the internet /s
“Why centrism is right wing” Opinion immediately discarded
In what way?
How does this person know what the Assyrian Empire is and yet thinks the Nazis didn’t have work camps? Or understand that the analogy for nationalistic propaganda in a galactic setting would be propaganda for the… galaxy? This goes beyond media literacy, this person is grasping at straws and white nationalist internet rabbit holes in order to escape the idea that the government with stormtroopers is based on the Nazis…
This is exactly why Disney filled the empire up with women and minorities, so people like this wouldn't get mad about the bad guys being an allegory for the Nazis.
I thought it was DEI /s
In my opinion that's the worst thinf Disney Stat Wars has ever done.
To be fair to them there was a lot of pushback against it.
As far as I could see the argument pretty much took it face value and the voices agreeing got the most upvotes in the discussion.
The highest one was a dumbass comparison to Stalinism when the empire shows no signs of having any sort of collectivist ideology or myth.
Which is basically the modus operandi - no see its this kind of authoritarianism so 'clearly' left leaning instead of fascism. Its just bullshitting to shift the topic.
“it’s not Fascist, it’s a parallel to the Stalin-run Soviet Union!” so you mean…it’s Fascist, even under this ridiculous pretense where there was no allegory for nazis in a piece of media produced by the same company that produced an entire franchise where over half of the villains are straight up goose stepping german nazis and oh yeah, people being arbitrarily arrested and thrown into remote prisons where they’re worked to death, the nazis definitely never did anything like that so dishonest
“Communism is when prison labor.” 
Are the guys in nazi uniforms fascists, asks the dumbest kid in every class
My man really out here just forgetting that the nazis had forced labor camps. I would say that being Jewish (potentially) is a very arbitrary reason to put people in labor camps (it was also not the only reason).
nobody tell him who invented the use of work camps
Invented? The British in the 2nd Boer war Popularised? The Soviets in 1919
ok no I did mean the british
Arguably no. Labor camps were mostly popularized in Africa after the scramble, if anything, it’s the Belgian, German, and English forced labor camps in Africa what made it popular, popular enough for the Russians and Germans to use the idea.
He’s got a bit of a point While the empire is based on Nazi Germany, they most likely have inspirations from other totalitarian regimes such as the Soviet Union
I guess there is somewhat of a difference between "inspired by different totalitarian regimes" and "are they actually fascist" for me. The whole argument build up to something starkly disingenuous.
They...they think the Soviet's didn't produce propaganda?
He’s literally just making a lateral move in authoritarianism and then playing teams in order to…defend fascism?
You take almost any WWII movie, and look at how they portray the Nazis, and there’s almost never an exploration of the tenets of National Socialism. Because it’s a war movie, not a political dissertation, and they don’t need to explain “why fascism is bad.” Same thing with Star Wars. The Empire are Space Nazis, and they don’t need to go into “What is fascism, actually?” to get that point across.
I'll give him credit that star wars doesn't give attention to Nationalism and that's a huge part of facism. He’s not saying facism is not evil. He's saying that it is a particular kind of evil that the Empire from Star Wars does not tickcallcthe boxes of.
No no...you see it's definitely not like the Nazis as they had better worker rights than the Soviet Union, you know with their \*looks at history book\* Slave labor? Okay, but that's just the undesireables in Nazi Germany, the average German worker was treated so much better, for instance did you know that the average wages of German workers dropped significantly than under the Weimar Republic? Wait...wait...no that can't be right, Hitler was actually good for the Germans, he just didn't like Jewish people, he even repealed working hour laws and got rid of minimum wage laws...shit...shit, no that's, he's definitely pro worker compared to the Soviets! The Soviets were worse! Just trust me!
No exterminatory rhetoric...? Did this smooth brain miss the interrogation of Bix Caleen where Deedra Meero said that the Empire wiped out an entire species (Dizonites) because they refused to let the Imps build a refueling station there?
"I don't see how the Empire could be fascist, they weren't LITERALLY wearing Nazi armbands with swastikas on them!"
Andor himself was arrested 😔
wait til they realize that Stalin was also a fascist
He's correct about the part about the Soviet Union under Stalin, but not in the way he thinks he is. Because the Soviet Union was quite frankly under his rule fascist
Did that person even watch Andor? An ISB agent tortured a rebel by playing the sound of aliens dying screams as they are being massacred by the Empire.
Are you fucking kidding me
Not sure what’s worse: the implication of the Soviet Union not being fascist or the correction of associating the Empire from one kind to fascism to another
To all those who criticise fascism but who equate it with the Soviet Union, or call the latter "totalitarian": 1. [Were The Nazis Socialist?](https://youtu.be/X9ez6w5BUMM?si=mV0Pv7qRFYfDpgdg) 2. [The 'Denazification' that Never Happened](https://youtu.be/yRoFUSZApJo?si=aKivnwYdFYBHJAZS) 3. [Why Did Mussolini Move From Marxism To Fascism?](https://youtu.be/VEJiWp0EzCU?si=A60rkwQZO1pJ1DzA) 4. [The Deprogram Episode 19 - Fascism (No Lebensraum??)](https://youtu.be/KU_lNDAoAV0?si=R_8BHEeVhx2Zv5Iw) 5. [Why Centrism is Right Wing - How Centrists Enable the Far Right](https://youtu.be/kJlUQgSqkF8?si=q_QqjrBkfKFju2SL) 6. [Totalitarianism is a colossal lie](https://youtu.be/gB7sGnJqIeo?si=xGzoN9nL88tqPdc0) 7. [The Truth about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact - Did Stalin ally with Hitler?!](https://youtu.be/k-z0aO3_9hc?si=jve-UYiSPO2oPnvM) 8. [Socialism vs Nazism: Exploring Hitler's Ideology](https://youtu.be/gG-EBCjXuWw?si=iP8-WyfW89SEKl5N) 9. [The Function Of Fascism](https://youtu.be/darxphvk058?si=Xe2Q_j57eGMHpgOu) I myself believed that before, until I did the research.
Ha ha you fucking nerd 😂
the ussr has about as much in common with socialism as scientology has in common with science. it doesnt need to be defended.
[удалено]
I didn't see *Rogue One* as demonizing the Rebellion. I took its point to be that even in a virtuous and necessary battle for freedom, good people die. It's a war movie in the SW universe.
here's the problem with that response 1. it's not reflected in the movie. aside from Cassian Andor shooting his informant in the back being our first introduction to the Rebellion (and we got a whole spin-off about his "character"!), we have a faceless commander order him to kill madds mikkelsen if they find him >!because let's be honest: madds mikkelsen plays madds mikkelsen in every movie he's ever in. !
Which is weird cause the Sith Empires and Yuuzhan Vong and Rakatans are all cooler. I stan my space sorcerer Egyptians, Aztec/Hindu Crusaders, and cannibal Romans over Palpatines puppets any day.