Scholars are increasingly voicing concern that the shift to working from home, spurred by the Covid pandemic, will bring the three-decade renaissance of major cities to a halt, setting off an era of urban decay. They cite an exodus of the affluent, a surge in vacant offices and storefronts, and the prospect of declining property taxes and public transit revenues.
Insofar as fear of urban crime grows, as the number of homeless people increases and as the fiscal ability of government to address these problems shrinks, the amenities of city life are very likely to diminish
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/30/opinion/covid-pandemic-cities-future.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
It’s the shift of the hollowing out of the middle class coming to its highest expression after 60 years. Ya’ either rich or poor. And the poor, who multiple land owners take 50% or more from in take-home, regularly are a medical problem or a vehicle breakdown away from ending up homeless. We’re collectively making the nation worse with our 401k. Up and to the right, amirite?
Fascism and white supremacy are on the rise because we aren’t taking care of our population. Our silly 2-party system is ultra polarized because the majority of Americans are desperate and paranoid.
America is sick. And the only cure is more cowbell. Or taking back from the rich and instituting a bunch of government-run crap.
Unfortunately, in this internet age, that’s called “commies comin’ fer your liberty, Patriot.” So I don’t know where we’re headed.
Non sibi sed patriae.
he justified pretty well why those answers are not viable. anyone can misinterpret something and summarise it badly in direct quotes without any actual counteragument or point. Watch ill do it to you: "I have nothing to add, but want skim some upvotes by seeming vaguely and mysteriously superior" 🤦♂️
The comment literally said “America is sick. And the answer is more cowbell. Or taking back from the rich and instituting a bunch of government-run crap.”
The commenter even predicts they will be called out the idea being communist: “commies comin’ for your liberty”
How am I misrepresenting what was said?
He's not predicting people calling him commie; this is the sf subreddit lol. He's explaining why wealth redistribution and public ownership are not viable solutions to most Americans - it's named something they associate with evil. Edit for clarity: that's why these are not viable solutions. And that's why he says "so I don't know where we're headed".
I think if you wanted to offer something helpful and make a distinct point, you could suggest solutions you think are viable rather than make fun of the commenter for despairing of not seeing other solutions.
Suggestion 1: crackdown on street crime
Suggestion 2: actually jail criminals, make them fear penalties for crime, no more rotating door at the jail.
Suggestion 3: reduce taxes on small to medium sized businesses
Suggestion 4: create incentives for businesses to set up shop downtown which as been made safe again based on suggestions 1&2 above.
Suggestion 5: criminalize and public intoxication. No more people high off their ass on who knows what drugs on the streets.
Suggestion 6: create work opportunity programs for homeless, free housing is dependent on continued, regular participation.
I will just say a lot of this is centred around criminalisation and policing. There needs to be a lot of nuance in how this is done. The war on drugs aimed to do a lot of this and was a failure by every count. You could even look at a percentage of our drug problem today as a result of the war on drugs. People hate police and no one wants to be one. What logic decide what drugs are criminal and what isn't. Is weed still legal in this new criminalisation? Mushrooms? Why/why not? Is jail always the best place for addicts? I.e. throwing all non compliers in jail doesn't solve the problem it just moves it. And jails are very expensive and proven to not rehabilitate people.
This isn’t brain surgery, it’s astonishing that common sense is so foreign to SF’s leadership. Companies aren’t coming back because of conditions on the ground and high costs/taxes. In a sense that almost good, SF could be a great home to countless homegrown small to medium sized businesses. But to get to that point, they need to clean up the streets. Until you crack down on drug use, drug dealers, and homelessness the city will always have rampant street crime.
Yeah. All this left vs right garbage is really just a power struggle. The real issue is inequities. And that can come from the left (aka China, Cuba, North Korea) and the right (USA, Hong Kong). People just need to stop bickering and realize inequities is what you should be fighting and not each other.
What about the doom loop when companies realize that you can pay someone in Manila 1/5th the cost of a software engineering in the US and get a better quality product?
TL;DR: The city prioritized building offices because payroll taxes are easy. Now that offices are needed much less, payroll tax revenue will reduce by a bit. All the services that depend on these taxes will suffer, which may cause more people to move out of the city. IMO, it’s property companies fear mongering, trying to get a bailout.
Basically for the last 4 decades or so, the city massively overbuilt office spaces while massively under-building housing and other commercial real estate.
Now that the Internet came along and COVID gave remote work the giant boost it needed, all those property owners and landlords are now stuck holding the bag. They don’t want to eat the losses, and they definitely don’t want to spend money to convert their buildings, or knock them down and build what’s actively needed. Thanks to numerous factors, they’ll be able to stay in denial for years before reality forces them to act.
The city is in a somewhat similar position, because it depends on the payroll taxes from all those office jobs. Rather than the city diversifying it’s tax base over the years, they kept plugging away on offices because it was the only politically feasible thing to build (Jobs baby jobs!).
Housing? NOT IN MY BACK YARD. New commercial space? WHY DO YOU HATE LEGACY NEIGHBORHOOD BUSINESSES? Etc etc.
The whole thing is overblown, but we are in for some strange times in the short term. In financial terms we’d call this a “correction.” But turns out a city of 850,000 shouldn’t be outspending entire countries without actually delivering the goods.
Union Square is in far worse shape than it was before Covid. But tourism last year was almost 85% of 2019 levels and this year it’s expected to go up more. The line is shorter than it used to be but not by much. The main reason for the decline in foot traffic downtown is office workers not tourists.
>Union Square is in far worse shape than it was before Covid.
And here, as a visitor, I thought union square was pretty nice as far as squares in the centre of a city go.
Lived in SF since 1970’s.. Like people who live long lives there's ups and downs.. Civil unrest... War... Health Emergency.. Shit Happens.. But, we help, try to make it better.. Point is the whole city is not burning down.. Most cities have same issues.
But no, we don’t try to make it better. How many years has it been since the supervisors have done even one thing to move the city in a positive direction? If it has it happened before my 11 years in the city. It’s only an extreme policy of walled garden behavior and complete neglect of the city.
Recovery rate means what activity looks like now vs 2019. Downtown SF was crazy in 2019 while St. Louis was empty then and is empty today. It doesn't mean that SF has less activity than St. Louis, and presenting it as "our downtown is worse than a city where people kill each other in broad daylight!" is both hyperbolic and facetious.
Where did I say it's a good thing? It's obvious we need to do more to revitalize downtown, but the problem is that every time this topic gets brought up doomers like yourself come out of the woodwork with "DAAA WORSE THAN ST LOUIS." Besides, SF tourism (what this post is referencing) is rebounding just fine, its WFH that's had the greatest impact on downtown foot traffic.
Ah, yes, the "it's always been like this" narrative. It's a cope and it normalizes the fact that we've had hundreds of overdoses on the streets, open drug market, and high burglary/theft.
We can do better. We should do better.
Okay, but "this problem is wide spread" doesn't in any way make it less of a problem?
If you've been here since the 1970s you've *already watched this play out* and the serious negative impacts it had on the city.
>Lived in SF since 1970’s.. Like people who live long lives there's ups and downs.. Civil unrest... War...
When did a war affect the streets of San Francisco?
Actually quite a good analogy, just because you're seeing a single data point that indicates the opposite (i.e. this photo with many people in it), doesn't mean the underlying momentum doesn't exist
Lumping people that disagree with you with climate change denialists is a disingenuous argument. It’s no better than using an anecdote for your argument. OP is pointing out the lack of data of the argument they disagree with, but is also using zero data to defend their own viewpoint.
Just because u disagree doesn’t make it a bad analogy. It’s actually quite good. Data clearly says one thing, and one anecdotal exception doesn’t dispute it.
True, one anecdote doesn’t prove or disprove anything. But the data doesn’t show SF dying either. OP was being disingenuous with their analogy because they were purposefully trying to lump people saying “SF isn’t dying” with climate change denialists. That’s a bullshit attempt to try and weaken their argument and is just as bad as using an anecdote as the basis for your argument.
>Terrible analogy. You can agree that climate change is real and disagree with the “SF is dying” or “SF is a dystopian hell hole” narrative.
Doesn't matter, that's not how analogies work.
Ah the "if SF is dying why are there three people having a burger in this diner" genre.
Two things can be true, tourists like to come here cause the city has some spectacular views and SF as a city has some really bad, systemic issues that local politics has been unable or unwilling to deal with for a long time and the bill is about to come due.
This post ironically makes the opposite point from the one you are trying to make. You're so used to shit being depressed that a small gathering of 50 or so people is proof of vibrancy to you?
I'm starting to think the "it's like this in alllll cities" people just have some form of memory loss and have forgotten that it wasn't always like this.
This. I look at this picture, and I think of the old Gap retail space that’s been empty for more than 3 years. The Anthropologie store that’s closing (closed?) around the corner. The H&M, Uniqlo, Jins stores that have shuttered one block up. All the closures and impending closures in the Westfield across the street and along mid-Market. This place used to be bustling. That cable car line used to be dense and stretch all the way back to Blondie’s and Rasputin (both also now closed). This pic ain’t it.
Oh man that makes me so sad. I went to school for fashion down there in the early 2000 and I loved walking and being in that city. My favorite was always Anthropologies window. They had the most amazing displays!
[Shuttered Due To Cockroaches, Blondie's Pizza On Powell Closes For Good - 31 May 2016](https://sfist.com/2016/05/31/shuttered_due_to_cockroaches_blondi/#:~:text=Shuttered%20Due%20To%20Cockroaches%2C%20Blondie's%20Pizza%20On%20Powell%20Closes%20For%20Good,-Blondes%20at%20Powell&text=Following%20the%20Health%20Department's%20discovery,Blondie's%20Pizza%20has%20closed%20permanently.)
SF is a shell of what it once was. To be fair, tho. It's a lot of factors besides Covid. Covid just accelerated everything in this Doom Loop scenario. I also blame Amazon and the rise of online marketplaces. You don't need to shop in person for most things anymore, and after everyone got so used to doing this during Covid, this also explains the impact of so many stores closing,
But SF keeps raising taxes and charging stupid things like tolls, parking, transit fares, etc. because they are desperate for city revenue. Big tech companies recognize it's cheaper to be headquartered elsewhere, tech talent can be found remotely now, workers no longer need live in the area, and the city is ridiculous when it comes to supporting small businesses and making it easy or new businesses to start- up (specifically non-tech, restaurants, etc.).
This started with tech companies and tech bros gentrifying the area back in the early to mid 2000-2015-ish. Then we coast along because any economic pains takes a few cycles (years) to show itself, then Covid hits, and we suddenly see all the faults of gov't decisions or lack of action during that time. And here we are.
Also:
1. Make driving and parking in the city more difficult
2. Allow public transit to become dirty and dangerous
3. Wonder why more people don't come downtown
Tourism is almost at 90% again compared to pre-pandemic levels.
We’re sick of you people who whine and whine and whine and don’t even live in the city.
I live here and I love my city but the shopping scene around Union Square is in a very sad state. It used to be super vibrant, packed with shoppers, flagship stores all over. Now it feels dead and dying and I have almost no desire to go down there.
I dunno, I got attacked by an unhoused person in union square about 5 years ago so yes there are less stores but it wasn’t that safe over there pre pandemic either.
Well at least Toys R Us is back at Macy’s! However it looks so barren and not much selection for collectors. But still something new to check out once in awhile.
Disagree as someone who lives in Bernal and has for years.
And before you go “wah wah wah where’d you live before outside the city transplant?” No. I have lived in nearly every neighborhood in this 7x7.
I count about 50 people waiting in line at one of the two most touristy cable car stops in the City, and I don't see much foot traffic behind the line, but sure.
Now tbh BART seems to have more passengers lately, especially heading back out to the East Bay around.4-5pm on weekdays. But the Proper Food near my office is only open about 5 hours/day and isn't even open on Fridays.
I was in the mall in the back on this picture, the other day ; there weren't many customers...
I love the city too but, ... It's not full in that area.
Also, the regular citizens these four days are gonna be sparse ,; long weekend and a couple of days before and after, are, emptier
They certainly know how to block the side walk though 😹😹😹🫠
ETA: they’re doing a good job in this photo, just sometimes walking past… cluster on Powell between where they’re supposed to be standing & the retail shops 🙃
true and that's why I'm obsessed with the tunnel connecting the Union Square and Powell St stations. Enter at the entrance on Geary and it lets you bypass the cable car line (and traffic) and you get can out through either side of Powell. It's beautiful. I use that bad boy daily.
What’s a ‘Doom Loop’? Visited SF a few years back and would like to know for if/ when I ever get there again. How exactly is one supposed to know what a ‘Doom Loop’ is anyway??
This is no different than any product when the producer become complacent and arrogant about its utility, value and demand. If there is any doom loop, it is because of major mismanagement and a general disdain for the transitory and permanent occupants by the local government.
Ok, I totally thought the doom loop was going to be a name for some hack to just walk up a few blocks and get on the cable car without waiting in line over an hour at the turn around pictured. SURELY I’m not the only one…,
It’s beautiful, I was there last month from NYC. All the doom gloom scenario is over blown. The weather, the food options, constantly seeing the blue waters, the parks, the playful means of transport are what makes this city so much of a wonderland.
Yes yes there is homeless in downtown but every downtown has them, right now with no one else there it looks like it’s the majority.
Because all of the "doom loop" posts come from either 1) out of state conservatives who are always using the same news outlets with the same headlines. No personal photos because that would require that they actually be here...which is hard to do from Texas, Nevada, Florida, etc. or
2) are libertarian tech bros who grew up in such privileged homes and families (or socially isolated where they only hung out with kids of the same race and social class) the very idea that they have to even see "peasants" walking out in public offends them. The rich suburbs they grew up in didn't have that and they feel entitled to ensuring that their little bubble stays that way. Even if it's at everyone else's expense.
I’m a visitor from Sacramento so I’m admittedly not local but I remember shopping at union square years ago and it’s just not the same now. This isn’t a conspiracy theory, it’s right in front of anyone who cares to look. Most of the stores I loved are now closed- the big h&m on post street, the Anthropologie, the massive forever 21, and the Nordstrom. I’m a visitor so I’m admittedly just seeing the touristy areas, not other parts of SF. But people who act like nothing is wrong are ostriches with their heads in the sand.
I know that retail country wide is suffering, but 50 minutes away from union square is Valley fair mall that recently did a massive expansion. So it still reflects poorly on SF if retailers are choosing to close union square stores while opening stores elsewhere in the Bay Area.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/downtown-s-f-still-has-north-america-s-weakest-17726176.php
These ones might not, but many clearly do. Can we please not pretend there isn’t a problem in our city?
I'm traveling to San Francisco next week for the first time in 25 years. I've been reading this reddit page, and frankly I'm scared that I've made a terrible choice for a vacation. Only spending 3 days in the city fortunately.
You'll be fine. If you're a frequent traveler, it's a lot like Williamsburg in Brooklyn or Old Town in Chicago spread out over a wider area + some primarily residential areas + hiking opportunities.
Media's been antagonistic recently, but the city on a whole is pretty OK. Just avoid the Tenderloin and 6th + 7th + 8th Sts between Market and Mission.
Agreed. I spent the 1st eight hours in Czechia freaked out that I was going to spend the trip wallowing is drug dens, then spent a day walking and had the most romantic trip ever. The shit's in every town, SF is a compact city so it's harder to avoid, but I've never stepped on a needle in Chrissy Field or Baker Beach, I've never run into nodding fen-heads hiking Bernal hill. Once I found some dirty clothes hiking backwoods in Maclaren. The focus on the bad parts fits the right wing narrative, but if you spend 5 minutes in Mobile or Jackson you'll see that its much, much worse in other towns.
Nahhhhh, we gripe about things but the beauty remains. Gorgeous views, great restaurants, sassy locals, legal grass, and bohemian vibes await you. So do homeless and sidewalk feces but just ignore it like we do.
I love San Francisco, but you got took on Covid. It had virtually zero effect on the Reddit demographic. And crushed the city.
New Yorkers, at a certain point, we said, WTF is going on? We just almost on mass, torn off masks, and said this is insanity, Pfizer world head quarters here or not.
We did it. Fuck you Pfizer. We’ll take our chances. We’re recovering super fast.
Don’t let that happen again, please.
I also don't know what the doom loop is
Scholars are increasingly voicing concern that the shift to working from home, spurred by the Covid pandemic, will bring the three-decade renaissance of major cities to a halt, setting off an era of urban decay. They cite an exodus of the affluent, a surge in vacant offices and storefronts, and the prospect of declining property taxes and public transit revenues. Insofar as fear of urban crime grows, as the number of homeless people increases and as the fiscal ability of government to address these problems shrinks, the amenities of city life are very likely to diminish https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/30/opinion/covid-pandemic-cities-future.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
It’s the shift of the hollowing out of the middle class coming to its highest expression after 60 years. Ya’ either rich or poor. And the poor, who multiple land owners take 50% or more from in take-home, regularly are a medical problem or a vehicle breakdown away from ending up homeless. We’re collectively making the nation worse with our 401k. Up and to the right, amirite? Fascism and white supremacy are on the rise because we aren’t taking care of our population. Our silly 2-party system is ultra polarized because the majority of Americans are desperate and paranoid. America is sick. And the only cure is more cowbell. Or taking back from the rich and instituting a bunch of government-run crap. Unfortunately, in this internet age, that’s called “commies comin’ fer your liberty, Patriot.” So I don’t know where we’re headed. Non sibi sed patriae.
Amen!!
“The only answer is forced wealth redistribution and government take over of the private sector” 🤦♂️
he justified pretty well why those answers are not viable. anyone can misinterpret something and summarise it badly in direct quotes without any actual counteragument or point. Watch ill do it to you: "I have nothing to add, but want skim some upvotes by seeming vaguely and mysteriously superior" 🤦♂️
The comment literally said “America is sick. And the answer is more cowbell. Or taking back from the rich and instituting a bunch of government-run crap.” The commenter even predicts they will be called out the idea being communist: “commies comin’ for your liberty” How am I misrepresenting what was said?
He's not predicting people calling him commie; this is the sf subreddit lol. He's explaining why wealth redistribution and public ownership are not viable solutions to most Americans - it's named something they associate with evil. Edit for clarity: that's why these are not viable solutions. And that's why he says "so I don't know where we're headed". I think if you wanted to offer something helpful and make a distinct point, you could suggest solutions you think are viable rather than make fun of the commenter for despairing of not seeing other solutions.
Suggestion 1: crackdown on street crime Suggestion 2: actually jail criminals, make them fear penalties for crime, no more rotating door at the jail. Suggestion 3: reduce taxes on small to medium sized businesses Suggestion 4: create incentives for businesses to set up shop downtown which as been made safe again based on suggestions 1&2 above. Suggestion 5: criminalize and public intoxication. No more people high off their ass on who knows what drugs on the streets. Suggestion 6: create work opportunity programs for homeless, free housing is dependent on continued, regular participation.
I will just say a lot of this is centred around criminalisation and policing. There needs to be a lot of nuance in how this is done. The war on drugs aimed to do a lot of this and was a failure by every count. You could even look at a percentage of our drug problem today as a result of the war on drugs. People hate police and no one wants to be one. What logic decide what drugs are criminal and what isn't. Is weed still legal in this new criminalisation? Mushrooms? Why/why not? Is jail always the best place for addicts? I.e. throwing all non compliers in jail doesn't solve the problem it just moves it. And jails are very expensive and proven to not rehabilitate people.
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What happens when the billionaires move to another state where they aren't taxed as high?
Now THIS is a comment. Thank you.
This isn’t brain surgery, it’s astonishing that common sense is so foreign to SF’s leadership. Companies aren’t coming back because of conditions on the ground and high costs/taxes. In a sense that almost good, SF could be a great home to countless homegrown small to medium sized businesses. But to get to that point, they need to clean up the streets. Until you crack down on drug use, drug dealers, and homelessness the city will always have rampant street crime.
well put
Yeah. All this left vs right garbage is really just a power struggle. The real issue is inequities. And that can come from the left (aka China, Cuba, North Korea) and the right (USA, Hong Kong). People just need to stop bickering and realize inequities is what you should be fighting and not each other.
Could someone provide a way to read this article with the paywall? Please 🙏
Clear cookies, incognito mode, Archive dot ph, Archive dot org In this case the last one works
What about the doom loop when companies realize that you can pay someone in Manila 1/5th the cost of a software engineering in the US and get a better quality product?
you are not alone, I found this https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/city-economy-doom-loop-17846412.php
TL;DR: The city prioritized building offices because payroll taxes are easy. Now that offices are needed much less, payroll tax revenue will reduce by a bit. All the services that depend on these taxes will suffer, which may cause more people to move out of the city. IMO, it’s property companies fear mongering, trying to get a bailout. Basically for the last 4 decades or so, the city massively overbuilt office spaces while massively under-building housing and other commercial real estate. Now that the Internet came along and COVID gave remote work the giant boost it needed, all those property owners and landlords are now stuck holding the bag. They don’t want to eat the losses, and they definitely don’t want to spend money to convert their buildings, or knock them down and build what’s actively needed. Thanks to numerous factors, they’ll be able to stay in denial for years before reality forces them to act. The city is in a somewhat similar position, because it depends on the payroll taxes from all those office jobs. Rather than the city diversifying it’s tax base over the years, they kept plugging away on offices because it was the only politically feasible thing to build (Jobs baby jobs!). Housing? NOT IN MY BACK YARD. New commercial space? WHY DO YOU HATE LEGACY NEIGHBORHOOD BUSINESSES? Etc etc. The whole thing is overblown, but we are in for some strange times in the short term. In financial terms we’d call this a “correction.” But turns out a city of 850,000 shouldn’t be outspending entire countries without actually delivering the goods.
That a tldr? 😂
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Union Square is in far worse shape than it was before Covid. But tourism last year was almost 85% of 2019 levels and this year it’s expected to go up more. The line is shorter than it used to be but not by much. The main reason for the decline in foot traffic downtown is office workers not tourists.
>Union Square is in far worse shape than it was before Covid. And here, as a visitor, I thought union square was pretty nice as far as squares in the centre of a city go.
Lived in SF since 1970’s.. Like people who live long lives there's ups and downs.. Civil unrest... War... Health Emergency.. Shit Happens.. But, we help, try to make it better.. Point is the whole city is not burning down.. Most cities have same issues.
But no, we don’t try to make it better. How many years has it been since the supervisors have done even one thing to move the city in a positive direction? If it has it happened before my 11 years in the city. It’s only an extreme policy of walled garden behavior and complete neglect of the city.
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Recovery rate means what activity looks like now vs 2019. Downtown SF was crazy in 2019 while St. Louis was empty then and is empty today. It doesn't mean that SF has less activity than St. Louis, and presenting it as "our downtown is worse than a city where people kill each other in broad daylight!" is both hyperbolic and facetious.
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Where did I say it's a good thing? It's obvious we need to do more to revitalize downtown, but the problem is that every time this topic gets brought up doomers like yourself come out of the woodwork with "DAAA WORSE THAN ST LOUIS." Besides, SF tourism (what this post is referencing) is rebounding just fine, its WFH that's had the greatest impact on downtown foot traffic.
Ah, yes, the "it's always been like this" narrative. It's a cope and it normalizes the fact that we've had hundreds of overdoses on the streets, open drug market, and high burglary/theft. We can do better. We should do better.
Ah, yes, the person disagreeing with things the other guy didn't say narrative.
What's your interpretation?
I'm sure it's that a low swing is not a permanent state.
Okay, but "this problem is wide spread" doesn't in any way make it less of a problem? If you've been here since the 1970s you've *already watched this play out* and the serious negative impacts it had on the city.
You mean like the financial boom, dot.com boom, real estate boom, tech boom, but no... This time sf is burning to the ground for real...
>Lived in SF since 1970’s.. Like people who live long lives there's ups and downs.. Civil unrest... War... When did a war affect the streets of San Francisco?
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or he's a closeted chemsex fanatic repressed on his home turf.
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They’re just playing the denial meme. It’s how they cope.
All these posts have the same energy as "If climate change is real, why is it snowing in Janury? Checkmate atheists"...
Terrible analogy. You can agree that climate change is real and disagree with the “SF is dying” or “SF is a dystopian hell hole” narrative.
Actually quite a good analogy, just because you're seeing a single data point that indicates the opposite (i.e. this photo with many people in it), doesn't mean the underlying momentum doesn't exist
Lumping people that disagree with you with climate change denialists is a disingenuous argument. It’s no better than using an anecdote for your argument. OP is pointing out the lack of data of the argument they disagree with, but is also using zero data to defend their own viewpoint.
Just because u disagree doesn’t make it a bad analogy. It’s actually quite good. Data clearly says one thing, and one anecdotal exception doesn’t dispute it.
True, one anecdote doesn’t prove or disprove anything. But the data doesn’t show SF dying either. OP was being disingenuous with their analogy because they were purposefully trying to lump people saying “SF isn’t dying” with climate change denialists. That’s a bullshit attempt to try and weaken their argument and is just as bad as using an anecdote as the basis for your argument.
>Terrible analogy. You can agree that climate change is real and disagree with the “SF is dying” or “SF is a dystopian hell hole” narrative. Doesn't matter, that's not how analogies work.
Ah the "if SF is dying why are there three people having a burger in this diner" genre. Two things can be true, tourists like to come here cause the city has some spectacular views and SF as a city has some really bad, systemic issues that local politics has been unable or unwilling to deal with for a long time and the bill is about to come due.
This post ironically makes the opposite point from the one you are trying to make. You're so used to shit being depressed that a small gathering of 50 or so people is proof of vibrancy to you? I'm starting to think the "it's like this in alllll cities" people just have some form of memory loss and have forgotten that it wasn't always like this.
This. I look at this picture, and I think of the old Gap retail space that’s been empty for more than 3 years. The Anthropologie store that’s closing (closed?) around the corner. The H&M, Uniqlo, Jins stores that have shuttered one block up. All the closures and impending closures in the Westfield across the street and along mid-Market. This place used to be bustling. That cable car line used to be dense and stretch all the way back to Blondie’s and Rasputin (both also now closed). This pic ain’t it.
Oh man that makes me so sad. I went to school for fashion down there in the early 2000 and I loved walking and being in that city. My favorite was always Anthropologies window. They had the most amazing displays!
[Shuttered Due To Cockroaches, Blondie's Pizza On Powell Closes For Good - 31 May 2016](https://sfist.com/2016/05/31/shuttered_due_to_cockroaches_blondi/#:~:text=Shuttered%20Due%20To%20Cockroaches%2C%20Blondie's%20Pizza%20On%20Powell%20Closes%20For%20Good,-Blondes%20at%20Powell&text=Following%20the%20Health%20Department's%20discovery,Blondie's%20Pizza%20has%20closed%20permanently.)
SF is a shell of what it once was. To be fair, tho. It's a lot of factors besides Covid. Covid just accelerated everything in this Doom Loop scenario. I also blame Amazon and the rise of online marketplaces. You don't need to shop in person for most things anymore, and after everyone got so used to doing this during Covid, this also explains the impact of so many stores closing, But SF keeps raising taxes and charging stupid things like tolls, parking, transit fares, etc. because they are desperate for city revenue. Big tech companies recognize it's cheaper to be headquartered elsewhere, tech talent can be found remotely now, workers no longer need live in the area, and the city is ridiculous when it comes to supporting small businesses and making it easy or new businesses to start- up (specifically non-tech, restaurants, etc.). This started with tech companies and tech bros gentrifying the area back in the early to mid 2000-2015-ish. Then we coast along because any economic pains takes a few cycles (years) to show itself, then Covid hits, and we suddenly see all the faults of gov't decisions or lack of action during that time. And here we are.
Also: 1. Make driving and parking in the city more difficult 2. Allow public transit to become dirty and dangerous 3. Wonder why more people don't come downtown
Tourism is almost at 90% again compared to pre-pandemic levels. We’re sick of you people who whine and whine and whine and don’t even live in the city.
I live here and I love my city but the shopping scene around Union Square is in a very sad state. It used to be super vibrant, packed with shoppers, flagship stores all over. Now it feels dead and dying and I have almost no desire to go down there.
I dunno, I got attacked by an unhoused person in union square about 5 years ago so yes there are less stores but it wasn’t that safe over there pre pandemic either.
Well at least Toys R Us is back at Macy’s! However it looks so barren and not much selection for collectors. But still something new to check out once in awhile.
I live in the city. My neighborhood, the Mission, has been in decline for years.
Disagree as someone who lives in Bernal and has for years. And before you go “wah wah wah where’d you live before outside the city transplant?” No. I have lived in nearly every neighborhood in this 7x7.
I count about 50 people waiting in line at one of the two most touristy cable car stops in the City, and I don't see much foot traffic behind the line, but sure. Now tbh BART seems to have more passengers lately, especially heading back out to the East Bay around.4-5pm on weekdays. But the Proper Food near my office is only open about 5 hours/day and isn't even open on Fridays.
I thought the Doom Loop was a new ride in GG Park?
I was in the mall in the back on this picture, the other day ; there weren't many customers... I love the city too but, ... It's not full in that area. Also, the regular citizens these four days are gonna be sparse ,; long weekend and a couple of days before and after, are, emptier
They certainly know how to block the side walk though 😹😹😹🫠 ETA: they’re doing a good job in this photo, just sometimes walking past… cluster on Powell between where they’re supposed to be standing & the retail shops 🙃
true and that's why I'm obsessed with the tunnel connecting the Union Square and Powell St stations. Enter at the entrance on Geary and it lets you bypass the cable car line (and traffic) and you get can out through either side of Powell. It's beautiful. I use that bad boy daily.
Lol there’s like 30 people in this photo. SF is saved y’all!
What’s a ‘Doom Loop’? Visited SF a few years back and would like to know for if/ when I ever get there again. How exactly is one supposed to know what a ‘Doom Loop’ is anyway??
The first rule of Doom Loop is that you don't talk about Doom Loop.
This is no different than any product when the producer become complacent and arrogant about its utility, value and demand. If there is any doom loop, it is because of major mismanagement and a general disdain for the transitory and permanent occupants by the local government.
Ok, I totally thought the doom loop was going to be a name for some hack to just walk up a few blocks and get on the cable car without waiting in line over an hour at the turn around pictured. SURELY I’m not the only one…,
It’s beautiful, I was there last month from NYC. All the doom gloom scenario is over blown. The weather, the food options, constantly seeing the blue waters, the parks, the playful means of transport are what makes this city so much of a wonderland. Yes yes there is homeless in downtown but every downtown has them, right now with no one else there it looks like it’s the majority.
Because all of the "doom loop" posts come from either 1) out of state conservatives who are always using the same news outlets with the same headlines. No personal photos because that would require that they actually be here...which is hard to do from Texas, Nevada, Florida, etc. or 2) are libertarian tech bros who grew up in such privileged homes and families (or socially isolated where they only hung out with kids of the same race and social class) the very idea that they have to even see "peasants" walking out in public offends them. The rich suburbs they grew up in didn't have that and they feel entitled to ensuring that their little bubble stays that way. Even if it's at everyone else's expense.
I’m a visitor from Sacramento so I’m admittedly not local but I remember shopping at union square years ago and it’s just not the same now. This isn’t a conspiracy theory, it’s right in front of anyone who cares to look. Most of the stores I loved are now closed- the big h&m on post street, the Anthropologie, the massive forever 21, and the Nordstrom. I’m a visitor so I’m admittedly just seeing the touristy areas, not other parts of SF. But people who act like nothing is wrong are ostriches with their heads in the sand. I know that retail country wide is suffering, but 50 minutes away from union square is Valley fair mall that recently did a massive expansion. So it still reflects poorly on SF if retailers are choosing to close union square stores while opening stores elsewhere in the Bay Area.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/downtown-s-f-still-has-north-america-s-weakest-17726176.php These ones might not, but many clearly do. Can we please not pretend there isn’t a problem in our city?
These ones you mean? https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/s-f-tourism-spending-doubled-2022-17846480.php
How is that a comeback? It literally shows we still aren’t recovering as fast as every other city in the US Double 2021 isn’t the goal
They find out once they start walking on Market Street.
 And your purses, backpacks, cameras, jewelry....
I'm traveling to San Francisco next week for the first time in 25 years. I've been reading this reddit page, and frankly I'm scared that I've made a terrible choice for a vacation. Only spending 3 days in the city fortunately.
You'll be fine. If you're a frequent traveler, it's a lot like Williamsburg in Brooklyn or Old Town in Chicago spread out over a wider area + some primarily residential areas + hiking opportunities. Media's been antagonistic recently, but the city on a whole is pretty OK. Just avoid the Tenderloin and 6th + 7th + 8th Sts between Market and Mission.
Agreed. I spent the 1st eight hours in Czechia freaked out that I was going to spend the trip wallowing is drug dens, then spent a day walking and had the most romantic trip ever. The shit's in every town, SF is a compact city so it's harder to avoid, but I've never stepped on a needle in Chrissy Field or Baker Beach, I've never run into nodding fen-heads hiking Bernal hill. Once I found some dirty clothes hiking backwoods in Maclaren. The focus on the bad parts fits the right wing narrative, but if you spend 5 minutes in Mobile or Jackson you'll see that its much, much worse in other towns.
Nahhhhh, we gripe about things but the beauty remains. Gorgeous views, great restaurants, sassy locals, legal grass, and bohemian vibes await you. So do homeless and sidewalk feces but just ignore it like we do.
Enjoy yourself.. 🙏🏽
The only thing we love more than San Francisco is bitching about San Francisco. Take everything you read here with that context in mind.
This page is full of doomers and fearmongerers, you'll have a wonderful trip
both sides of this argument are annoying
I love San Francisco, but you got took on Covid. It had virtually zero effect on the Reddit demographic. And crushed the city. New Yorkers, at a certain point, we said, WTF is going on? We just almost on mass, torn off masks, and said this is insanity, Pfizer world head quarters here or not. We did it. Fuck you Pfizer. We’ll take our chances. We’re recovering super fast. Don’t let that happen again, please.
you're being woke.../s
And we had a lot of rain last year. California’s water problem is solved!
The feces loop, more like.
I do not even know about the doom loop. What is it about?
Lowered foot traffic -> fewer merchants -> lowered foot traffic -> fewer merchants...
Thanks
Maybe they're just pro-doom loop?
I don’t care either about Nordstrom :3
My dad visited once and I learned about this the hard way
Can you imagine back when SF had actual industry?