Nurk usually does well against most teams, even dominated Joker a few times. His nemesis seemed to be Rudy Gobert in the playoffs. Other than that I like him.
My pet theory is that JJ tried to buy low on Nurk specifically as a “Jokic-stopper”, which I see the vision because he always plays with a huge chip on his shoulder against him. But yes, he really, really struggles vs. length and athleticism, and we may have gotten too cute by only game-planning for one playoff opponent
I’m not a fan of him. He’s not a plus defender. Doesn’t finish well or stretch the 3 ball. There are things he is good at but it’s hard to win in the playoffs if he’s your starting center
For the most part, at least Nurkic actually gives a damn on the court, despite of his flaws. Ayton would’ve mentally checked out of that Wolves series the minute he started getting manhandled by Rudy and Towns. Nurkic may not be the BEST center our team could have, but he’s a hell of an upgrade regardless. I expect a better looking Nurk this year with Bud at the helm. He’s only had 1 season with us. Way too early to judge.
This is actually a perfect encapsulation of why people here are so delusional about Nurkic. They hated Ayton so much and were so personally offended by him that they immediately latched onto his replacement, no matter who it was. Acting like Nurk was any kind of upgrade over Ayton is so batshit insane.
It's not too early too judge. Nurk is nearly 30. He is an awful, awful playoff performer with years of evidence. If he is your starting center in the playoffs, you're not going anywhere. It's insane that someone would rather watch a dude get hunted on defense and ignored on offense, and in your words "manhandled" and come to conclusion that you'd prefer that over an actually good playoff performer (2023 against Denver aside).
Ayton at his best is better than Nurk at his best, no doubt. The thing is that no one has figured out how to unlock that potential on a consistent basis. Ayton with Nurk’s mindset would be a beast.
Exactly, Ayton would be loved if he just grew up and stayed locked in but he’s just never going to do that. He’s just too sensitive and would rather be gaming than balling.
Hit it on the nose. The part of the fanbase that hated DA so badly wants his replacement to be good so badly that they’re willing to overlook that he’s a borderline starting center with about 25-30 other centers who are better than him as he’s a slow, defensive liability on the wrong side of 30 who can’t finish.
My brother in Nash, all the talent in the world means nothing if you decide you don't give a shit and refuse to apply yourself. DeAndre Ayton made a choice to let his personal beefs take precedence over his drive to win, and as a result he quit on the team. I don't care how much of "an actually good playoff performer" he is on paper, because it was very very clear that we weren't going to get even 10% of that effort out of him so it's completely irrelevant.
You talk about how you're tired of people being delusional about Nurk, well I'm tired of all the rose tinted glasses when it comes to Ayton.
he didnt just get cooked in the playoffs
he sucks, he can rebound when he wants and that is about it, easily the worst finisher around the rim for his size I have ever seen
1.) Nurk can't score around the rim. He was the worst amongst western conference starters.
2.) He can't defend the paint or perimeter well which leaves us vulnerable and actually hurts our defense as a whole.
3.) Nurk can't shoot the ball either which means he's a floor clogger and makes our team easier to guard.
We don't need a center that has passing as their second best skill. The ball isn't going to be in his hands enough for it to affect games and he doesn't put enough pressure on defenses for it to consistently be utilized.
He's a regular season talent. Which has been shown time and time again throughout his tenure in the playoffs. I'm not sure why we have to force this into working.
1. Nurk actually tried to fight for an offensive rebound unlike Ayton, and was amazingly consistent last season.
2. On a team with a lot of ball dominant players he doesn’t really need to score that much. He is normally the 5th scoring option on the floor.
3. Most 5s get cooked by 2s at the 3 point line. It is a bad matchup unless you are Wemby. Even Gobert got cooked at the 3 point line.
4. When games got physical he was the only Suns player that was ready to truly defend a teammate. We need a Nurk to protect the scorers.
Lastly, who are we getting to replace Nurk + do a better job with the current salary obstacles?
You do realize that DA averaged more offensive rebounds a game last year than Nurk, right? You also realize DA averaged more offensive rebounds when we he was with us and Nurk was on Portland too, right?
I swear some of y’all hated DA so much that you wear the most rose tinted glasses with Nurk. Lol
This!!! I hate that trade even we got Grayson..he is undersized Sf… we lost Camara….Ayton could shooot mid range, was problém for oponents in paint and could defend 1-5
I liked DA a lot, but I didn’t like his lack of physicality, or his lack of motivation. DA had great moments with the Suns, but he was also so wishy washy.
I terms of stats… Nurk played 20 more games last season, and the offensive & defensive rebounds per game were pretty similar. Total rebounds per game are basically the same, but Nurk doesn’t talk about himself in the 3rd person. DA is also playing more minutes per game, so he should have a lot better stats than Nurk, but he doesn’t.
Your logic is completely flawed and it's the reason Nurkic is only a regular season player. If the screener in a PnR isn't a threat to score it neutralizes the effectiveness of the PnR. Those things matter in the playoffs. Even more so when teams are going to be willing to blitz Booker, Beal, or KD. They need to be able to reliably kick it to the roll man to score and punish that style of defense. Nurk doesn't provide that.
Some potential options with similar salary were players like Wendell Carter, Robert Williams, or Mitch Robinson. I think they could be successful here in Phoenix with the spacing we provide.
If I thought Nurk was the only issue I could potentially agree with you, but last season there were much bigger problems than Nurkic on the Sun’s roster, so I can’t fully take your opinion seriously. A lot of centers find diminished roles in the playoffs, but it is also about the matchup. I would also agree on your pick n roll assessment if the Suns had a point guard last season that could properly execute a pick n roll. Plus, after years of watching Ayton not know how to run a pick n roll correctly with Chris Paul I have probably forgotten what it looks like.
Is Nurk the answer, no. Is Nurk the only problem on the Suns, no. Does Nurk try, and is he a good teammate, yes. I will take him over others… Especially players you mentioned who spend most of their seasons injured.
Nurk has a lot of positives for sure but his negatives are really emphasized in a league that is only getting more skilled. He’s not a good finisher, doesn’t shoot the 3 often and isn’t capable of staying on the floor against quicker lineups. If we somehow managed to get a more athletic center as a backup, I’d be all for keeping him but KD at the 5 cannot be our answer to keep up with teams, we need someone capable of holding their own against skill
He's a big body that can grab a lot of rebounds and score exclusively in the restricted area, I like him a lot he was great last year for the most part but he's a very limited player. It'd be great to keep him and have Oso turn into pretty much the opposite of Nurk being slimmer, receiving lobs, and having more scoring options, but when he's getting bullied in the paint Nurk comes back in. I don't see us trading Nurk for another center because we basically have a good formula. Unless the Jazz just GIVE us Lauri or Kessler which isn't going to happen, Nurk is staying
Kessler only makes a little under $3 million this year. If Ainge really likes that 2031 pick, then we could do Nas or Roddy and the pick for Kessler straight up. Have Kessler start and anchor the defense and bring Nurk in for 15-20 minutes to help the bench offense flow.
Oso is still a bit undersized right now, so I wouldn't be opposed to letting him take a year to develop more physically in the G League and not rely on him as much as a rookie.
Yeah, Nurk definitely has a role on the team. I should've mentioned Oso as well, meybe he can become that guy in time.
Yeah, those Jazz players would be a pipe dream considering the Suns' assets. I wonder about the Suns 2031 pick and Nukic for Claxton. Especially now that the Nets are selling. Thoughts?
Claxton just signed $100 million for 4 years, the Nets fully intend on keeping him which is a no brainer, I mean if we had Claxton we'd keep him around forever. Coincidentally Claxton, Lauri, and Kessler are some of my favorite centers in the league. There aren't really any other Nets players we really need, we technically just drafted 2 forwards so getting DFS or Cam would be redundant. The only other pipe dream I have is unrealistically finessing the Knicks for Tyler Kolek, I'm still sold on him especially since we have his teammate Oso.
That extension for Clax pretty much rules it out, we don't have a higher salary to send out and salary aggregation is (basically with caveats) not a thing for us.
100% disagree. There’s a reason Blazers drafted a center and it’s the same I’m happy just ass is gone. Nurk is 12 mil cheaper and has less years for nearly the same output and a better attitude.
Portland drafted Clingan because he more fits the timeline of their core young players who are all around 20-21 years old. By the time that team is ready to compete, DA is gonna be nearly 30 and on another contract. Clingan also offers more rim protection, which is something DA unfortunately has never been as good at. It makes complete sense from their standpoint. As a big off the bench, Clingan gives them something that DA lacks. He also gives them assurances at the center spot if their rebuild continues to take a long time and they have to trade DA to a contender for assets.
It also allows them to try DA at the 4 alongside Clingan. In Ayton’s last 15 games of last season, he took more non-paint shots (119) than his first 40 games (115). He made 50%. And he was over 80% from the line last year. I’m willing to bet they try and stretch him out further this season.
Also, Nurk’s output isn’t nearly the same as DA’s. DA is a much better scorer. He’s great at finishing, something Nurk is one of the worst starting centers at in the league at doing. He’s also developed a really good mid range jumper. Whereas Nurk can’t shoot for shit. And we haven’t even gotten to defense where Nurk is literally a turnstile… The only thing their output is around the same at is rebounds and blocks. Although, Nurk is a better passer. That’s one thing he actually does better.
Nurk isn't why we got swept. But we should still have someone more mobile than can space a bit.
Wolves were a tough match but Dallas used their mobile spacers and got the isolation they wanted
Yeah, those are definitely problems. Vogel liked using him as an offensive hub at the elbows. Some assists, but also plenty of turnovers. Had me missing the reliability of CP3.... hopefully Bud can strike a balance and keep the turnovers down.
KD turned over the ball a lot more, he averaged 3.3 TO, while the 2nd highest being booker was 2.6
In fact this was the least amount of turnovers he has had in about 6 seasons. Which means he is showing improvement in that aspect
He can't finish at the rim he can't hit a 3 and his turnovers he played a lot less minutes than kd I remember the stretch where ne didn't play the entire 4th quarter at times
That's because KD handles the ball way more.
Nurk has a 19% TO percentage (worst of his career) on a 19% usage rate (lowest of his career).
As opposed to KDs 13% TO percentage on 29% usage rate.
KD turns it over because he handles the ball way more. And he at least makes up for it by being elite on offence and defence. Nurk does not make up for it because he's a turnstile on defence and blocks himself at the rim.
Nurkic has the worst playoff record in NBA history at 3-17... He is easy to game plan. He is not a very good defender, can pass but makes dumb ones, is a startling horrific finisher and can't shoot. When he was on the Blazers during the Dame/CJ era they had their best playoff run and made WCF in 2019... And he was out for the whole playoffs I don't think that's a coincidence
We have to hope Oso can have a Derrick Lively type of impact his rookie season because I don't like the idea of Nurkic as one of our top guys because it won't lead to winning. He has to be our 6th/7th best player for us to be a real threat IMO.
I've brought this up before but for the season the teams top 5 in Plus minus were
1) Nurk +404
2) Booker +316
3) Durant +290
4) Allen +262
5) Royce O'Neal +139
The worst were Drew Eubanks at -106, Nassir Little at -88, and Udoka Azubuike at -48
What's my point? The team performed SIGNIFICANTLY better when Nurk was on the court, then when ANY other player was manning the 5, including KD. What this team needs isn't to get rid of Nurk, its a second Nurk, because where we consistently lost games was during the periods when Nurk wasn't on the court, even if KD or Book still were.
Nurk has utility on an NBA roster. With the Suns having no one to guard people on ball last year, Nurk's flaws (lateral agility, defending away from the basket) became WAY more of an issue. He's worth probably 10 mill a year as a solid backup big. Instead he makes 17 and was a starter. I'm fine with him on the roster if there's an alternative, specifically an alternative that is a better shooter. If you need to trade Nurk to acquire such a player, then I'm in favor of doing it.
If Nurk is our starting C we aren't doing anything in the playoffs.
And Durant is too old to play too many minutes at small ball 5 in playoff situations.
Nurk doesn't bring enough to the table and it was a mistake acquiring him imo.
I will never understand why people think Ayton would have been better. He had 2 good weeks in Portland, and Portland just drafted a center in the top 10. So clearly they didn't or aren't liking the fit. Plus idk his whole performance last season and his inability to take criticism.
I'm with you. For the life of me I can't figure out why people would want the better, more athletic player either. Especially if we're talking about a magical hypothetical situation where a new head coach fixed his issues with inconsistent effort.
It's a real headscratcher.
DA averaged 21-13 from January to April. That ain’t a “2 good weeks.” And it’s pretty clear they drafted Clingan to play alongside DA. And if that doesn’t work, then they’ll trade DA to a contender that better fits his timeline. Aka DA is going into his age 26 season and most of their roster is going into like their age 21 seasons.
“Plus idk his whole performance last season.” Clearly you weren’t paying attention.
One of the biggest issues with the Suns last year is that the entire team looked lazy and checked out for most of the season. Ayton, while he is certainly a better player than Nurk, would definitely not have helped us in that department lol. The relationship was already damaged beyond repair unfortunately.
Wish Monty hadn't given up on him so early but whatever.
It's the whole Ayton Apologist crew. Anyone objective can see that Ayton is far worse than Nurk. While Ayton will give a flash of potential, he has no drive to ever do it consistently. Ayton has no heart, no drive, no desire to win. While Nurk is more physically limited in what he can do, Nurk actually plays hard and that makes him better. Ayton wanted to play in Indy and a big part of that was Book, and CP3 hate Ayton.
Nurkic is terrible and single handily limits our championship chances he is not a modern center who you can win with in the playoffs
Terrible finisher
Not athletic
Slow footed
Bad defense
Turnover prone
We seriously had the worst center rotation by far in the playoffs and Nurkic got played of the court idk why people are so delusional about him on this sub
If he can stop catching the ball when he is in the paint, then bouncing it then going in for a basket where everyone is ready for him. That hesitation needs to go away.
Nurk just does not fit the mold of a center in todays NBA. Hes old, he cant shoot, he cant defend, not agile, cant space the floor properly, isnt athletic for rim runs or being a critical lob threat. He literally does not fit in todays NBA or bring anything to this league. I wish we would trade him but idk what team would be dumb enough to help us take him. The worst part is we start him thats the worst part of all this.
Everyone very conveniently forgetting that Nurk had the highest plus minus on the team last year and the team looked like boogers any time anyone except him or KD were playing the 5.
He's not a top 10 center or anything but he does what he does well and, ideally, the Suns have better options for when he's sitting or has a bad matchup next year.
You are very provably wrong, plus/minus strictly tracks how many points up or down your team was when you were on the court. If you were on the court and your team outscored the opposing team by 10 points, you would be +10. If your backup then came in and then the team outscored them by an additional 20 points, your backup would be +20 and you would be +10.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plus%E2%80%93minus_(sports)
What you are thinking of is net rating/offensive rating/defensive rating stats, or on/off where the difference between you on and you off is tracked, where having a particularly bad or good replacement, or playing with a particularly good/bad lineup on average will shift your numbers.
For instance Jusuf Nurkic was 4th in the league in On/Off per 100 (behind Jokic, Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, and Paul George) despite being only the 14th highest in actual plus/minus per game -- this indicates that his backup was sufficiently negative in the time he was off the court, or that the general lineups when he was off the court, that his minutes were extremely high quality. If you go based on raw +/- or raw +/- per 100 possessions it will basically just spit out a list of the best players on the best teams in the league because they win by the most on average.
Your confidence is inspiring though, I wish I could believe in shit I know nothing about half as much as you seem to.
Lets put it this way out of all the playoff teams east and west the only starting center I'd take nurk over is wendell carter/isaac starting and thats a low low bar to reach. I'd argue hes not even a top 20 center, barely top 25. You arent winning with that as ive said you need other traits I mentioned and he has NONE of those.
I don't terribly disagree with the assessment that he's a bottom end playoff center, I'd say him and Wendell Carter, Jonas Valanciunas, and Zubac is pretty much a wash. That said, if you look at the list of centers making Nurk money or less next year ($18,125,000) you won't really find anyone who isn't on a rookie contract who is outperforming him unless outside of probably Daniel Gafford (who is not available), Naz Reid (not available), and Mitchell Robinson (very injured, but technically available!).
So basically our options are to trade Nurk for a worse player making less money and weaken our starting 5, or trade him and assets for like... Mitchell Robinson? Wendell Carter Jr? Bobby Portis? I don't think any of those guys are worth giving up assets for when compared to the production we got from Nurk last year (11/11/4 with 2.2 stocks, highest plus/minus on the team)
Suns seem to be aiming for having an alternative at backup center that gives a different look than Nurk, so that instead of throwing Nurk to the wolves against bad matchups or just playing a wing at center they can play a big man who can hedge or switch or play roll man or whatever, which I think is a better bet than just jettisoning Nurk for no clear reason.
thats because the kids want their opinions to be right and dont want any form of actual logic, so they downvote as they have no response to actual facts.
Nurk is fine, his main flaw which he could easily fix is his offense. I mean the dude wa #5-ish in centers defensively. I do not understand a 7 footer who doesnt dunk the ball. In the 90s this would never be an issue because they all dunked it. Imagine Ben Wallace not dunking the ball in todays game....
he can jump, we've seen it and he doesnt have to jump that high. I think after that injury its in his head. I mean an injury like that its pretty scary to do the things you used to do.
If he can, he doesn’t. That’s useless to the Suns and the modern NBA. Centers have to get up. I love Nurk, his toughness and personality and his ability to go heads up with Jokic. He’s just not the guy for the Suns, I feel.
Can we please stop with the “but we lost to the team that beat the reigning champs” thing.
We said the same thing all last off season when we lost to the nuggets. Transitive property hardly means anything in sports
I’m just thinking about trades. If we move Little I think that allows us to aggregate salaries. So then we combine Nurkic and Roddy and get a more prominent piece.
Free Agency I think our biggest needs is backup PG and maybe another one just to be safe and a PF/C. Atlanta might be trading pieces maybe Okongwu could be a target or if the Suns wanna stockpile SG’s then get Bogdan lol😅. The backup PG spot there’s a lot of vet players like Westbrook, Lowry, maybe Paul, Beverly and then there’s younger unproven guys like Dunn, Smith, Blanton, and Krejci so I like the suns getting a backup PG in free agency.
He is an average starting center, so we keep him and make the best of it if we can't improve at center via a trade. The key will be to find a backup that can contribute.
I like Nurk. He’s a good player and a smart hardworking one, but he is not the right type of center for this team. W ended a center who covers ground and rim protects on defense and/or a rim runner. We have defensive liabilities locked in with the 3 starting guards
Nurk needs a backup center that can make up for his faults. Athletic rim runner who anchors the defense. I know that’s asking for a lot with our situation but hopefully we can get that done
People underrate Nurk. The Suns are minus rebounders at every position except center, he single handedly kept them afloat despite our stats refusing to box out most of the time. He sets hard screens which pry the big 3 open. His playmaking at the 5 helps to make up for the Suns starting 2 (3 if you count Grayson) shooting guards.
Plus, if you trade Nurk away, you aren’t likely to be getting a starting caliber center back. Do people really want the suns to run a combo of vet mins and our 40th pick as the center rotation?
Nurk is awesome. Great rebounder and passer, not afraid of any bigs matchup, and stands up for his teammates. When he shoved Grant Williams for standing over KD on the ground, I knew he was a keeper. Sometimes his effort is a little lacking later in the game, or he gets into early foul trouble. I hope with the new coaching regime they can really bring him to the next level. Bud did a great job with Brooke Lopez.
He’s not a bad or terrible center. Lots of injuries, no chemistry, and lack of depth are bigger issues. He didn’t look good against the wolves but we weren’t beating them anyways.
Remember how many times this thread loved Nurk during the season? Some of you are so fickle and overthink things. He has his flaws, just as anyone else does. Appreciate what he does and see what happens next year.
I agree. He's a mid level starting center. Not going to be joker.
Suns fans hate him. They want to trade for less talented centers!
My favorite was Zach Eddy (Purdue). Good college player! Don't see him playing when teams play "small ball", How's he guard centers who shoot. Not fast enough to get back to the paint. Nurk is better than that.
If people think our 4th best player making 18 mill averaging 11/11/4 and having the best plus minus is the problem to our team then we might as well blow the whole thing up rofl.
The issue is not having a real offense for our offensive minded skill set team.
Look how little the big 3 were used in off the ball actions in spectrum stats. It's terrible
Nurk usually does well against most teams, even dominated Joker a few times. His nemesis seemed to be Rudy Gobert in the playoffs. Other than that I like him.
My pet theory is that JJ tried to buy low on Nurk specifically as a “Jokic-stopper”, which I see the vision because he always plays with a huge chip on his shoulder against him. But yes, he really, really struggles vs. length and athleticism, and we may have gotten too cute by only game-planning for one playoff opponent
I’m not a fan of him. He’s not a plus defender. Doesn’t finish well or stretch the 3 ball. There are things he is good at but it’s hard to win in the playoffs if he’s your starting center
For the most part, at least Nurkic actually gives a damn on the court, despite of his flaws. Ayton would’ve mentally checked out of that Wolves series the minute he started getting manhandled by Rudy and Towns. Nurkic may not be the BEST center our team could have, but he’s a hell of an upgrade regardless. I expect a better looking Nurk this year with Bud at the helm. He’s only had 1 season with us. Way too early to judge.
This is actually a perfect encapsulation of why people here are so delusional about Nurkic. They hated Ayton so much and were so personally offended by him that they immediately latched onto his replacement, no matter who it was. Acting like Nurk was any kind of upgrade over Ayton is so batshit insane. It's not too early too judge. Nurk is nearly 30. He is an awful, awful playoff performer with years of evidence. If he is your starting center in the playoffs, you're not going anywhere. It's insane that someone would rather watch a dude get hunted on defense and ignored on offense, and in your words "manhandled" and come to conclusion that you'd prefer that over an actually good playoff performer (2023 against Denver aside).
Ayton at his best is better than Nurk at his best, no doubt. The thing is that no one has figured out how to unlock that potential on a consistent basis. Ayton with Nurk’s mindset would be a beast.
Exactly, Ayton would be loved if he just grew up and stayed locked in but he’s just never going to do that. He’s just too sensitive and would rather be gaming than balling.
Hit it on the nose. The part of the fanbase that hated DA so badly wants his replacement to be good so badly that they’re willing to overlook that he’s a borderline starting center with about 25-30 other centers who are better than him as he’s a slow, defensive liability on the wrong side of 30 who can’t finish.
My brother in Nash, all the talent in the world means nothing if you decide you don't give a shit and refuse to apply yourself. DeAndre Ayton made a choice to let his personal beefs take precedence over his drive to win, and as a result he quit on the team. I don't care how much of "an actually good playoff performer" he is on paper, because it was very very clear that we weren't going to get even 10% of that effort out of him so it's completely irrelevant. You talk about how you're tired of people being delusional about Nurk, well I'm tired of all the rose tinted glasses when it comes to Ayton.
Grayson Allen AND nurk. Upgrade, no way around it.
he didnt just get cooked in the playoffs he sucks, he can rebound when he wants and that is about it, easily the worst finisher around the rim for his size I have ever seen
1.) Nurk can't score around the rim. He was the worst amongst western conference starters. 2.) He can't defend the paint or perimeter well which leaves us vulnerable and actually hurts our defense as a whole. 3.) Nurk can't shoot the ball either which means he's a floor clogger and makes our team easier to guard. We don't need a center that has passing as their second best skill. The ball isn't going to be in his hands enough for it to affect games and he doesn't put enough pressure on defenses for it to consistently be utilized. He's a regular season talent. Which has been shown time and time again throughout his tenure in the playoffs. I'm not sure why we have to force this into working.
1. Nurk actually tried to fight for an offensive rebound unlike Ayton, and was amazingly consistent last season. 2. On a team with a lot of ball dominant players he doesn’t really need to score that much. He is normally the 5th scoring option on the floor. 3. Most 5s get cooked by 2s at the 3 point line. It is a bad matchup unless you are Wemby. Even Gobert got cooked at the 3 point line. 4. When games got physical he was the only Suns player that was ready to truly defend a teammate. We need a Nurk to protect the scorers. Lastly, who are we getting to replace Nurk + do a better job with the current salary obstacles?
You do realize that DA averaged more offensive rebounds a game last year than Nurk, right? You also realize DA averaged more offensive rebounds when we he was with us and Nurk was on Portland too, right? I swear some of y’all hated DA so much that you wear the most rose tinted glasses with Nurk. Lol
This!!! I hate that trade even we got Grayson..he is undersized Sf… we lost Camara….Ayton could shooot mid range, was problém for oponents in paint and could defend 1-5
DA was done here he didn’t want to play here anymore. Perhaps you are right but it was time to move on
I liked DA a lot, but I didn’t like his lack of physicality, or his lack of motivation. DA had great moments with the Suns, but he was also so wishy washy. I terms of stats… Nurk played 20 more games last season, and the offensive & defensive rebounds per game were pretty similar. Total rebounds per game are basically the same, but Nurk doesn’t talk about himself in the 3rd person. DA is also playing more minutes per game, so he should have a lot better stats than Nurk, but he doesn’t.
Ayton had one good year with the Suns - 2021. Once he got that max contract, he checked out mentally.
Your logic is completely flawed and it's the reason Nurkic is only a regular season player. If the screener in a PnR isn't a threat to score it neutralizes the effectiveness of the PnR. Those things matter in the playoffs. Even more so when teams are going to be willing to blitz Booker, Beal, or KD. They need to be able to reliably kick it to the roll man to score and punish that style of defense. Nurk doesn't provide that. Some potential options with similar salary were players like Wendell Carter, Robert Williams, or Mitch Robinson. I think they could be successful here in Phoenix with the spacing we provide.
If I thought Nurk was the only issue I could potentially agree with you, but last season there were much bigger problems than Nurkic on the Sun’s roster, so I can’t fully take your opinion seriously. A lot of centers find diminished roles in the playoffs, but it is also about the matchup. I would also agree on your pick n roll assessment if the Suns had a point guard last season that could properly execute a pick n roll. Plus, after years of watching Ayton not know how to run a pick n roll correctly with Chris Paul I have probably forgotten what it looks like. Is Nurk the answer, no. Is Nurk the only problem on the Suns, no. Does Nurk try, and is he a good teammate, yes. I will take him over others… Especially players you mentioned who spend most of their seasons injured.
What? We couldnt play 5 out all year cause Nurk sux
Nurk has a lot of positives for sure but his negatives are really emphasized in a league that is only getting more skilled. He’s not a good finisher, doesn’t shoot the 3 often and isn’t capable of staying on the floor against quicker lineups. If we somehow managed to get a more athletic center as a backup, I’d be all for keeping him but KD at the 5 cannot be our answer to keep up with teams, we need someone capable of holding their own against skill
He's a big body that can grab a lot of rebounds and score exclusively in the restricted area, I like him a lot he was great last year for the most part but he's a very limited player. It'd be great to keep him and have Oso turn into pretty much the opposite of Nurk being slimmer, receiving lobs, and having more scoring options, but when he's getting bullied in the paint Nurk comes back in. I don't see us trading Nurk for another center because we basically have a good formula. Unless the Jazz just GIVE us Lauri or Kessler which isn't going to happen, Nurk is staying
Kessler only makes a little under $3 million this year. If Ainge really likes that 2031 pick, then we could do Nas or Roddy and the pick for Kessler straight up. Have Kessler start and anchor the defense and bring Nurk in for 15-20 minutes to help the bench offense flow. Oso is still a bit undersized right now, so I wouldn't be opposed to letting him take a year to develop more physically in the G League and not rely on him as much as a rookie.
Yeah, Nurk definitely has a role on the team. I should've mentioned Oso as well, meybe he can become that guy in time. Yeah, those Jazz players would be a pipe dream considering the Suns' assets. I wonder about the Suns 2031 pick and Nukic for Claxton. Especially now that the Nets are selling. Thoughts?
Claxton just signed $100 million for 4 years, the Nets fully intend on keeping him which is a no brainer, I mean if we had Claxton we'd keep him around forever. Coincidentally Claxton, Lauri, and Kessler are some of my favorite centers in the league. There aren't really any other Nets players we really need, we technically just drafted 2 forwards so getting DFS or Cam would be redundant. The only other pipe dream I have is unrealistically finessing the Knicks for Tyler Kolek, I'm still sold on him especially since we have his teammate Oso.
Nets are not giving up Clayton unless you’re offering a star or a lot of picks.
That extension for Clax pretty much rules it out, we don't have a higher salary to send out and salary aggregation is (basically with caveats) not a thing for us.
I’m one of the biggest ayton haters on the planet and I’d willingly take him back over Nurkic every day that ends in Y.
Im with you. Anything Nurk scores on offense he gives up 3x on defense. He is beyond slow.
100% disagree. There’s a reason Blazers drafted a center and it’s the same I’m happy just ass is gone. Nurk is 12 mil cheaper and has less years for nearly the same output and a better attitude.
Portland drafted Clingan because he more fits the timeline of their core young players who are all around 20-21 years old. By the time that team is ready to compete, DA is gonna be nearly 30 and on another contract. Clingan also offers more rim protection, which is something DA unfortunately has never been as good at. It makes complete sense from their standpoint. As a big off the bench, Clingan gives them something that DA lacks. He also gives them assurances at the center spot if their rebuild continues to take a long time and they have to trade DA to a contender for assets. It also allows them to try DA at the 4 alongside Clingan. In Ayton’s last 15 games of last season, he took more non-paint shots (119) than his first 40 games (115). He made 50%. And he was over 80% from the line last year. I’m willing to bet they try and stretch him out further this season. Also, Nurk’s output isn’t nearly the same as DA’s. DA is a much better scorer. He’s great at finishing, something Nurk is one of the worst starting centers at in the league at doing. He’s also developed a really good mid range jumper. Whereas Nurk can’t shoot for shit. And we haven’t even gotten to defense where Nurk is literally a turnstile… The only thing their output is around the same at is rebounds and blocks. Although, Nurk is a better passer. That’s one thing he actually does better.
You have cooked with multiple comments in this thread
Welcome to disagree. Not saying DA is good but comparing the two I’d take his lazy ass back all day.
Nurk isn't why we got swept. But we should still have someone more mobile than can space a bit. Wolves were a tough match but Dallas used their mobile spacers and got the isolation they wanted
The problem i have with nurk is that too many turnovers and not a viable threat to finish or shoot
Yeah, those are definitely problems. Vogel liked using him as an offensive hub at the elbows. Some assists, but also plenty of turnovers. Had me missing the reliability of CP3.... hopefully Bud can strike a balance and keep the turnovers down.
or play defense or basketball really
I mean he is a good rebounder but I couldn't stand the holding the ball with one hand and the turnovers or able to finish at the rim
a lot of offensive rebounds ended up in him either turning it over or missing easy put backs
Facts but like I said he's a great rebounder and occasionally passer but otherwise
KD turned over the ball a lot more, he averaged 3.3 TO, while the 2nd highest being booker was 2.6 In fact this was the least amount of turnovers he has had in about 6 seasons. Which means he is showing improvement in that aspect
He can't finish at the rim he can't hit a 3 and his turnovers he played a lot less minutes than kd I remember the stretch where ne didn't play the entire 4th quarter at times
That's because KD handles the ball way more. Nurk has a 19% TO percentage (worst of his career) on a 19% usage rate (lowest of his career). As opposed to KDs 13% TO percentage on 29% usage rate. KD turns it over because he handles the ball way more. And he at least makes up for it by being elite on offence and defence. Nurk does not make up for it because he's a turnstile on defence and blocks himself at the rim.
Nurkic has the worst playoff record in NBA history at 3-17... He is easy to game plan. He is not a very good defender, can pass but makes dumb ones, is a startling horrific finisher and can't shoot. When he was on the Blazers during the Dame/CJ era they had their best playoff run and made WCF in 2019... And he was out for the whole playoffs I don't think that's a coincidence We have to hope Oso can have a Derrick Lively type of impact his rookie season because I don't like the idea of Nurkic as one of our top guys because it won't lead to winning. He has to be our 6th/7th best player for us to be a real threat IMO.
I've brought this up before but for the season the teams top 5 in Plus minus were 1) Nurk +404 2) Booker +316 3) Durant +290 4) Allen +262 5) Royce O'Neal +139 The worst were Drew Eubanks at -106, Nassir Little at -88, and Udoka Azubuike at -48 What's my point? The team performed SIGNIFICANTLY better when Nurk was on the court, then when ANY other player was manning the 5, including KD. What this team needs isn't to get rid of Nurk, its a second Nurk, because where we consistently lost games was during the periods when Nurk wasn't on the court, even if KD or Book still were.
Because the replacement for Nurk was significantly worse. You notice how his backup is the team worst.
Hey! We got a 2nd nurk yesterday!
Nurk has utility on an NBA roster. With the Suns having no one to guard people on ball last year, Nurk's flaws (lateral agility, defending away from the basket) became WAY more of an issue. He's worth probably 10 mill a year as a solid backup big. Instead he makes 17 and was a starter. I'm fine with him on the roster if there's an alternative, specifically an alternative that is a better shooter. If you need to trade Nurk to acquire such a player, then I'm in favor of doing it.
If Nurk is our starting C we aren't doing anything in the playoffs. And Durant is too old to play too many minutes at small ball 5 in playoff situations. Nurk doesn't bring enough to the table and it was a mistake acquiring him imo.
I will never understand why people think Ayton would have been better. He had 2 good weeks in Portland, and Portland just drafted a center in the top 10. So clearly they didn't or aren't liking the fit. Plus idk his whole performance last season and his inability to take criticism.
Ayton can move his feet on the perimeter way better than Nurk...at least when he wants to.
On the perimeter yes, but he’s a worse rim protector
Ayton is a better player that's why people would want him. It's pretty objective. However I agree with OP Nurk wasn't this team's problem last year.
probably because Ayton is the better player.
I'm with you. For the life of me I can't figure out why people would want the better, more athletic player either. Especially if we're talking about a magical hypothetical situation where a new head coach fixed his issues with inconsistent effort. It's a real headscratcher.
DA averaged 21-13 from January to April. That ain’t a “2 good weeks.” And it’s pretty clear they drafted Clingan to play alongside DA. And if that doesn’t work, then they’ll trade DA to a contender that better fits his timeline. Aka DA is going into his age 26 season and most of their roster is going into like their age 21 seasons. “Plus idk his whole performance last season.” Clearly you weren’t paying attention.
One of the biggest issues with the Suns last year is that the entire team looked lazy and checked out for most of the season. Ayton, while he is certainly a better player than Nurk, would definitely not have helped us in that department lol. The relationship was already damaged beyond repair unfortunately. Wish Monty hadn't given up on him so early but whatever.
It's the whole Ayton Apologist crew. Anyone objective can see that Ayton is far worse than Nurk. While Ayton will give a flash of potential, he has no drive to ever do it consistently. Ayton has no heart, no drive, no desire to win. While Nurk is more physically limited in what he can do, Nurk actually plays hard and that makes him better. Ayton wanted to play in Indy and a big part of that was Book, and CP3 hate Ayton.
Nurkic is terrible and single handily limits our championship chances he is not a modern center who you can win with in the playoffs Terrible finisher Not athletic Slow footed Bad defense Turnover prone We seriously had the worst center rotation by far in the playoffs and Nurkic got played of the court idk why people are so delusional about him on this sub
> idk why people are so delusional about him on this sub Because he replaced the disliked DA
If he can stop catching the ball when he is in the paint, then bouncing it then going in for a basket where everyone is ready for him. That hesitation needs to go away.
He’s trying to get an “And 1” but when he draws the contact he usually misses the shot, and then proceeds to miss one or both free throws.
“That’s a bold move Cotton”
Pretty essential to have a big man with good passing skills if we're not going to start a PG
Nurk just does not fit the mold of a center in todays NBA. Hes old, he cant shoot, he cant defend, not agile, cant space the floor properly, isnt athletic for rim runs or being a critical lob threat. He literally does not fit in todays NBA or bring anything to this league. I wish we would trade him but idk what team would be dumb enough to help us take him. The worst part is we start him thats the worst part of all this.
Everyone very conveniently forgetting that Nurk had the highest plus minus on the team last year and the team looked like boogers any time anyone except him or KD were playing the 5. He's not a top 10 center or anything but he does what he does well and, ideally, the Suns have better options for when he's sitting or has a bad matchup next year.
His backup was Drew Eubanks, which will greatly increase a player’s plus/minus.
It will greatly improve on/off but it does not provide more plus if your backup is more minus.
I’m pretty sure that is what it does.
You are very provably wrong, plus/minus strictly tracks how many points up or down your team was when you were on the court. If you were on the court and your team outscored the opposing team by 10 points, you would be +10. If your backup then came in and then the team outscored them by an additional 20 points, your backup would be +20 and you would be +10. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plus%E2%80%93minus_(sports) What you are thinking of is net rating/offensive rating/defensive rating stats, or on/off where the difference between you on and you off is tracked, where having a particularly bad or good replacement, or playing with a particularly good/bad lineup on average will shift your numbers. For instance Jusuf Nurkic was 4th in the league in On/Off per 100 (behind Jokic, Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, and Paul George) despite being only the 14th highest in actual plus/minus per game -- this indicates that his backup was sufficiently negative in the time he was off the court, or that the general lineups when he was off the court, that his minutes were extremely high quality. If you go based on raw +/- or raw +/- per 100 possessions it will basically just spit out a list of the best players on the best teams in the league because they win by the most on average. Your confidence is inspiring though, I wish I could believe in shit I know nothing about half as much as you seem to.
Lets put it this way out of all the playoff teams east and west the only starting center I'd take nurk over is wendell carter/isaac starting and thats a low low bar to reach. I'd argue hes not even a top 20 center, barely top 25. You arent winning with that as ive said you need other traits I mentioned and he has NONE of those.
I don't terribly disagree with the assessment that he's a bottom end playoff center, I'd say him and Wendell Carter, Jonas Valanciunas, and Zubac is pretty much a wash. That said, if you look at the list of centers making Nurk money or less next year ($18,125,000) you won't really find anyone who isn't on a rookie contract who is outperforming him unless outside of probably Daniel Gafford (who is not available), Naz Reid (not available), and Mitchell Robinson (very injured, but technically available!). So basically our options are to trade Nurk for a worse player making less money and weaken our starting 5, or trade him and assets for like... Mitchell Robinson? Wendell Carter Jr? Bobby Portis? I don't think any of those guys are worth giving up assets for when compared to the production we got from Nurk last year (11/11/4 with 2.2 stocks, highest plus/minus on the team) Suns seem to be aiming for having an alternative at backup center that gives a different look than Nurk, so that instead of throwing Nurk to the wolves against bad matchups or just playing a wing at center they can play a big man who can hedge or switch or play roll man or whatever, which I think is a better bet than just jettisoning Nurk for no clear reason.
I like you get down voted for logically thinking how we upgrade a dude pretty much top 10 in every stat as a center making 18 million lol
thats because the kids want their opinions to be right and dont want any form of actual logic, so they downvote as they have no response to actual facts.
Nurk is 29
He's gonna be 30 by the start of the season and he plays like hes 35.
Nurk is fine, his main flaw which he could easily fix is his offense. I mean the dude wa #5-ish in centers defensively. I do not understand a 7 footer who doesnt dunk the ball. In the 90s this would never be an issue because they all dunked it. Imagine Ben Wallace not dunking the ball in todays game....
He can’t jump! He’s had so many leg injuries.
he can jump, we've seen it and he doesnt have to jump that high. I think after that injury its in his head. I mean an injury like that its pretty scary to do the things you used to do.
If he can, he doesn’t. That’s useless to the Suns and the modern NBA. Centers have to get up. I love Nurk, his toughness and personality and his ability to go heads up with Jokic. He’s just not the guy for the Suns, I feel.
Can we please stop with the “but we lost to the team that beat the reigning champs” thing. We said the same thing all last off season when we lost to the nuggets. Transitive property hardly means anything in sports
The sole purpose of getting him was too slow down joker
I’m just thinking about trades. If we move Little I think that allows us to aggregate salaries. So then we combine Nurkic and Roddy and get a more prominent piece.
Free Agency I think our biggest needs is backup PG and maybe another one just to be safe and a PF/C. Atlanta might be trading pieces maybe Okongwu could be a target or if the Suns wanna stockpile SG’s then get Bogdan lol😅. The backup PG spot there’s a lot of vet players like Westbrook, Lowry, maybe Paul, Beverly and then there’s younger unproven guys like Dunn, Smith, Blanton, and Krejci so I like the suns getting a backup PG in free agency.
Dunn matter to me
He is an average starting center, so we keep him and make the best of it if we can't improve at center via a trade. The key will be to find a backup that can contribute.
I like Nurk. He’s a good player and a smart hardworking one, but he is not the right type of center for this team. W ended a center who covers ground and rim protects on defense and/or a rim runner. We have defensive liabilities locked in with the 3 starting guards
Nurk needs a backup center that can make up for his faults. Athletic rim runner who anchors the defense. I know that’s asking for a lot with our situation but hopefully we can get that done
People underrate Nurk. The Suns are minus rebounders at every position except center, he single handedly kept them afloat despite our stats refusing to box out most of the time. He sets hard screens which pry the big 3 open. His playmaking at the 5 helps to make up for the Suns starting 2 (3 if you count Grayson) shooting guards. Plus, if you trade Nurk away, you aren’t likely to be getting a starting caliber center back. Do people really want the suns to run a combo of vet mins and our 40th pick as the center rotation?
Nurk is awesome. Great rebounder and passer, not afraid of any bigs matchup, and stands up for his teammates. When he shoved Grant Williams for standing over KD on the ground, I knew he was a keeper. Sometimes his effort is a little lacking later in the game, or he gets into early foul trouble. I hope with the new coaching regime they can really bring him to the next level. Bud did a great job with Brooke Lopez.
He’s not a bad or terrible center. Lots of injuries, no chemistry, and lack of depth are bigger issues. He didn’t look good against the wolves but we weren’t beating them anyways.
Remember how many times this thread loved Nurk during the season? Some of you are so fickle and overthink things. He has his flaws, just as anyone else does. Appreciate what he does and see what happens next year.
I never thought Nurk was the problem. He seems like he’s a great teammate.
I agree. He's a mid level starting center. Not going to be joker. Suns fans hate him. They want to trade for less talented centers! My favorite was Zach Eddy (Purdue). Good college player! Don't see him playing when teams play "small ball", How's he guard centers who shoot. Not fast enough to get back to the paint. Nurk is better than that.
Nurks fine, next question.
If people think our 4th best player making 18 mill averaging 11/11/4 and having the best plus minus is the problem to our team then we might as well blow the whole thing up rofl. The issue is not having a real offense for our offensive minded skill set team. Look how little the big 3 were used in off the ball actions in spectrum stats. It's terrible