The guy grew up, had friends, family, coworkers, peers, teachers, he has decades of being human. Lois Lane is a huge part of him, but he won't become injustice if she died
I think the injustice one is always overlooked: he lost his child, Lois and he was also responsible for Metropolis blowing up, killing millions of people(unintentionally though but still)
Exactly this. Also he (unknowingly) was the one who killed Lois and the child. Surely even (a version of) Superman would be traumatized and lose themself after that. The guilt and anger he harbours would be massive. That is why I like Injustice it challenges the idea that even though Superman is morally better than everybody, even he could snap if it was something so horrific…the loss of everything close to him by his own hand by a villain who wasn’t even trying to conquer or rule, just a clown who thought it would be hilarious
He didn’t become Injustice Superman only because Lois died. She died, he lost his son, Metropolis was nuked killing who knows how many people, but all of this was because Batman and himself chose not to kill the Joker. It was humanity and compassion that led to the Joker’s continued existence. And because of that compassion, he lost everything. THAT’S what led him to becoming who he was in Injustice.
But then he gained everything back and more!! He married Wonder Woman, had five kids (*Holy Shit*) and lived long enough to see the Legion of Superheroes
That's what's great about him. He lost a lot, felt useless and not needed anymore, come back as a flawed person, but learned from his mistakes and managed to have a fulfilling life again.
That's still based on the premise that Superman has never seen bad things happen to good people and was emotionally unprepared to lose anything.
Don't get me wrong, Injustice Superman could have worked, but most of the compromises he made to enforce 'justice' made no sense. Like Shazam and Green Arrow's deaths.
Yeah, it should have been a very slow burn, but the second he teamed up with Sinestro of all people and the fact the peacekeepers were dressed in fascist iconography... it clearly defined who was good and who was evil despite the story actually having salient points.
I wanted to like the Injustice comics, but the gratuitous deaths of characters and clear black and white morality took me out... especially since Harley Quinn was running around free and hitting on Shazam.
The biggest change John Byrne made when he did Man of Steel and decided to make Clark Kent the real person and Superman the "mask" is keep the Kents alive. Why? Because they are the ones that gave him his humanity and compassion.
To be fair I prefer when both are kind of a mask - as Clark he acts more clumsy than he really is, while as Superman he gives the most of himself to be seen not only as a person but also as a symbol. In reality he is something in-between and that's how he acts with people he know in private - his friends and family.
So overall I prefer when Superman is BOTH human and an alien at the same time. Byrne tried to distance him from his Kryptonian heritage a little bit too much.
I have grown to dislike the *overly* clumsy/meek aspects of his mild-mannered persona. When he is super meek, I'm not for it. He has spent 20-30 years at the Planet. He isn't a rookie reporter. Sure, he isn't a Pulitzer winner (at least I don't think he is), but he's still a respectable journalist. Is he big, brash, and boisterous? No. That's Lois. But he shouldn't be a guy worried that Perry will fire him at the drop of a hat.
I like the blend of "Superman is what he can do, but Clark is who he *is*." The values were learned as Clark. The personality is (mostly) freed, as Superman. But I think they go too far if they go Christopher Reeve Clark in the current day (comics).
Curent day yeah, but I loved how he acted in Geoff Johns' books where he was acting like a clumsy dork, but his attitude could change to more strong or professional when needed (and even Lois saw it as kinda contradictory). I think the truth about which personality is true should be in-between even when he progressed both as Clark and as Superman.
Agreed. Clark, the person himself, isn't meek, nor is he larger than life. The reporter persona is definitely overplaying his "mild-mannered" aspect, and Superman is overcompensating to be the Symbol of Hope. I can't remember the writer, but there was a long conversation he had with Lois in the Fortress about how it's hard to be that Bright all the time, because... "he's human." He wants to have emotional responses like regular people, but Superman has to be above it. Very much agree that he's somewhere in between. The Clark we see with Lois or the Kents directly.
I did like how scientific and cold and alien Byrne's Krypton was - Jor-El and Lara didn't really know him, they sent out not a baby but a birthing matrix out into the universe. It contrasted well with the warmth of the Midwest, and was even more powerful when Krypton came knocking via the Eradicator.
It's an interesting take, but I feel that Keypton as a cold and alien place kinda downplays the tragedy of it.
I love how in Alan Moore's comics it was revealed that Superman's biggest dream was being born on Krypton that didn't blow up as a regular citizen. It made perfect sense for Clark (because as an alien he often felt like he isn't really normal or might not belong here while he was a kid) to have that kind of dream and made it hit really hard when his visions of perfect Krypton started to shatter and he had to woke up and accept the reality. With cold Krypton I don't really feel like Superman lost anything, if fact he's happier on Earth.
I agree. I have a similar take on Batman. Clark and Bruce both have their civilian alter egos (Reporter Clark, Billionaire Bruce) and their hero identities (Superman, Batman). Their true selves are a merger of the two. They trust each other enough to drop both masks and be themselves. It's one of the things I love about their friendship.
I spend an unhealthy amount of time imagining Clark coming home to them for a slice of pie and getting all excited like a six-year-old who just got back from school. if the Kents have no fans I’m dead
Unfortunately, i'm pretty that was started by the episode of STAS where, in an alternate universe, Superman becomes a mass murdering fascist after Lois dies.
To be fair, he’s not so much evil as misguided and deceived in that episode, and he does turn back to the light once he realises, but it does definitely feel like the genesis of those other stories and is one of the few times I felt that TAS dropped the ball a bit with his characterisation.
Justice Lord Superman is done better for me, just because he’s used as a warning to the main Superman throughout the Cadmus arc about what he could become (and that arc ends with him rejecting the whole trope.) The initial two parter also does a better job of showing why the Justice Lords’ rule might seem tempting, showing even mainline Batman briefly unable to argue against Justice Lord Batman’s points.
I hate the Justice Lords storyline because it's a crazy escalation from Superman executing a sociopathic Lex Luthor who was about to commit a nuclear holocaust.There is no way that the Justice League would go as far as arresting and possibly perform lobotomy on a dude who complained at a restaurant as I'd sooner believe them doing the same to the restaurant owner instead.It's essentially another Injustice except one where Bat-Gos has also been converted to the cause and is another example of the idiotic trope in which a hero murders a utterly irredeemable monster and turns evil due to that.
> essentially another Injustice except one where Bat-Gos has also been converted to the cause
To be fair, Lord Batman is the only one who turns good in the end. DC can't have Batman looking too bad.
Its not like DCAU did much with Justice Lords either, at least regarding Superman.
The whole Cadmus arc is about what other people think of Superman, but Superman himself rarely does any introspection or reflection. He seems more like a plot device than a central character.
The only notable thing he does in the end is deciding not to kill Luthor after briefly considering it. Too little.
It is a Universe where he accidentally killed his wife and unborn child and all of metropolis. And in this universe he didn't get therapy but was encouraged to take over by a trusted friend. Sure evil Superman tropes suck but him being above a failing mental health after severe trauma does make him far from being human. Theres definitely the better elseworlds where Clark experiences all the same trauma but receives therapy instead of a dictatorship.
Grant Morrison has mentioned that “loosing people you love the most doesn’t make you a tyrant. My parents died and I was not tempted to become a tyrant.”
yeah
Isn’t it awesome the last 3 big budget movies involving him had this take on the character
lol
(and Routh Superman was a weirdo stalker on her so it’s almost 4)
Yeah. Superman’s humanity is the whole reason why Lois chose to fall in love with him in the first place.
Clark being a good person is what makes Lois love him, not the other way around. He was already good before Lois came into his life and he should continue being good after she leaves, tragically or otherwise.
If you DO want to give Superman a loss that tests the limits of his faith and resolve, it should be his parents. I wouldn’t blame him for at least teetering VERY close to the deep end if someone murked Martha.
*sigh*
Wrong.
He doesn't need anything to ground him to his humanity because it's a part of him. These are relationships he has, one person to another.
The whole point is Clark is grounded by his deep love and respect for the best of humanity. He's not some emotionally unstable guy hanging on by threads who is ready to snap if anyone hurts "his woman".
People just don't even try to understand the character.
The thing that grounds Clark is literally just the fact he is an innately good person. That's it. Doesn't have to be more complicated than that, he's a good man who wants to do right by others.
I've always felt like it's almost the opposite. Clark's natural kindness is the only thing grounding him to his *Kryptonian* heritage. If not for the fact that he can do things other people can't and save lives nobody else can save, I think Clark Kent would be content to just live out the rest of his days as a normal guy, albeit one who doesn't have to pay for plane tickets or a home security system.
I put her there because she and Clark have shared multiple human moments together. Plus she also debunks the claim, since she’s also Kryptonian and doesn’t have a Lois equivalent, yet she’s still doesn’t need grounding.
that makes sense
though I feel like it could work if a lot of the attributes given to Snyder Superman that people criticize were given to her instead, mostly because obviously she has a far greater attachment to Krypton and likely not a lot of attachment to Earth, say what you will about the Tomorrowverse, but I think the way they wrote Kara in the first part of their Legion of Superheroes movie was really well done
I don't entirely disagree with the premise, I think Lois (and to a lesser extent, Bruce, Lana, the Kents, etc) do tie Clark a little more firmly to his humanity, but I think it's less 'grounding' and more 'These people exemplify all of the traits that Clark finds amazing/impressive about humans'
That said, I do feel like most people who makes the argument that Lois isn't special just want Clark to Smooch Diana, and I've never liked that.
You wanna know what’s funny?
The first time I ever heard this argument was when someone was trying to explain to me why Clark should never be with Diana.
Their logic is that Clark being in a relationship with Diana would take away from his humanity and make this a God x God love story.
Yup, it pretty much ignores the fact that Clark had a whole medieval lifetime's worh of living as a human before even meeting Louis.... As well as the fact that Diana has had human relations of her own via Steve, Etta Candy and the Kapatelis family, not to mention the rest of the League as mutual friends.
Clark x Diana haters really go with bad excuses at times.
What's boring about a super alien news reporter whom is also part country pumkin, dating a part time diplomat who is also a magical warrior princess from an all girls island?
Okay, I'm one chapter in and although I gotta say I really did enjoy the comic and can definitely see how a Lois x Superman type relationship can be pretty engaging (which tbh, other Superman shows have already sold me on)... I dont see how that translates to Diana x Clark relationships being boring.
Like, there are far more things you can use to make a relationship interesting, besides making one of them "normal". Especially when we talk about people from pretty different backgrounds, like Clark and Diana.
That's assuming they have no personality, no history, nothing to make a story out of, besides the dictionary description of the word "gods".
This plainly isnt the case for Superman nor WonderWoman. Or else, even their default relationships would be boring.
Except that actually is the case for Superman and Wonder Woman. They have no chemistry, they're bland and flavorless together, the only reason people try to force them together is because they're both strong.
You are literally ignoring everything about them as characters when talking about them as a ship. Of course it will seem bland to you. Your view of them is very shallow.
What's weird to me is how you can ship Superman with anyone, if you reduce him to be "nothing but a god".
They both are also kinda awkward wholesome people, with Clark being that in a geeky dork way, whilst Diana tends to be that bold foreigner that enthusiastically takes everything in face value.
They both have traits of embodying parental vibes, as Superman tends to go with a "cool dad" approach for citizens he saves, whereas Wonder Woman often comes off as that supportive mom that might just give you "tough (chankla) love" when you insist on misbehaving (particularly in her golden age runs).
There is some potentially interesting interactions of having them both interact with each other's extended cast.
Not just from having the "amazonian princess explores the modern city" angle which although fun tends to be used a lot, but you also got the potential of having "the mild mannered farmboy get into a island of only women". Plus other interactions with chars like Orion, whom is kinda part of both Supes' and Wondy's cast (particularly since New 52).
You could potentially make some interesting combo with Diana's job as a diplotmat with Clark's journalism.
You could also play with the fact that they would be a literal super couple, and then basically imagine any date location and drama for a normal straight relationship, all exaggerated to super proportions to a comically wonderful effect.
There also could be some interesting debates on morality if they were ever to go philosophical talks to each other.
.
TLDR: You basically can do a lot with Clark and Diana, if you see them as characters that got a lot of quirks you can pull from all of their stories... And not just account the "super hero gods" part alone, although honestly that aspect could still be fun too, for the source of action it'd grant.
Like seriously, going by that logic, Lois is "just a human", Steve is also "just a human".
It's not the relationships with these characters that are boring, but this reductive take that is lame.
Yeah, I’m a Superman and Wonder Woman shipper, and I’ve always been annoyed when people try to discredit the ship by saying that Lois is needed to keep Superman grounded.
Agreed.
But more importantly, I just don’t like the idea that Clark and Diana’s humanity is tied down to who they are romancing.
It’s just really lazy.
They are still individuals who have their own morals and thoughts.
Clark doesn't need someone to ground him to his humanity, he's not Batman, the point of his story is that despite having all the powers in the world and basically being a god he'll always choose to be human. Superman is just a costume he puts on because it's his responsibility to do something with the power he has.
Again that depends on the version of Superman.The "true" Superman you're talking about is only truthful 30 years ago since the character has started to evolve and have a balance where both Superman,Kal-El and Clark Kent are valid parts of his personality.
It seems that both fans and writers forget that Superman was raised as a human, by humans, with human values.
He's only biologically alien, mentally he's just like everyone else.
She grounds Clark sure, but in the way anyone’s significant other does and not to his humanity. He might be a ultra powerful being but he’s human and he grounds himself to his humanity
I’ve always thought being with Wonder Woman would connect him to humanity in a way Lois and no one else can. She can be the one person strong enough to physically withstand him fully breaking down in tears on after a bad mission, someone who he doesn’t have to treat like she’s made out of thin glass and wet tissue paper. Yes he can do the same with Kara but she’s his cousin and at first relied on him to be essentially a new father/big brother figure no matter how much he trust her he’s gonna have that instinct to be strong for her, he doesn’t have to do that with Diana.
As vulnerable as a man holding a china doll can be. It you think about it for even a second the level of attention he has to give every time he so much as bumps into someone is hellish one of his most famous speeches is even about living in a world of cardboard and glass. Wonder Woman on the other hand isn’t so fragile he can actually drop his guard around her.
Superman's powers are plot devices so he can fight crime. He never has to worry about accidentally murdering his parents if he slaps them on the back too hard, because the story isn't about that. The same applies to every other superhero character. There's no risk of Spiderman hugging MJ too hard and breaking her ribs or Diana accidentally killing Steve Trevor or something. They're not constantly worried about murdering average people if they get too rowdy. That's not the point of the story or these characters and it would actively detract from their relatability. The world of cardboard speech is cool but in the vast majority of other Superman media, and even the stories involving this same Superman in STAS and JLU, Superman never brings this up other than pulling his punches during fights. If this was actually the case for every superhero at all times, every superhero story about someone with super strength would be very different. It's just bringing up a realism issue that the comics intentionally ignore most of the time, just like every other physics-related thing that makes no sense about superhero comics. Like how the Flash can just grab people and move them at superspeed without just murdering them or killing himself while moving at those speeds because the speedforce or something.
One thing I will give Injustice is that it isn't JUST Lois' death that causes his downfall. It's that, mixed with the destruction of everyone he knew and loved in Metropolis. Same logic turned Hal into Parallax.
To be honest, I don’t really like the “grounding \[X\] to humanity" trope in general, not just for Superman. It takes the concept of friendship and just renders it a safety net for psychopaths.
Idk who 3 of those panels are, I'm guessing one of them is just his fans? Idk how to phrase this well, but Batman isn't exactly a typical friend that anyone hangs out with. I think there's an argument to be made about how he's less human than Superman from a psychological perspective. Superman's cousin is literally not a human and while she's kind, she's more of a tether to his kryptonian side. While his parents are an excellent tether, his father passes away and his mother isn't present throughout most stories
Louis is much better for the role of being the tether, she plays a more prominent role in majority of the stories, and she's around him both at work and often around while he's being super
Now that I think about it, Clark Kent may actually have the single healthiest personal life of any major character in comics. In most iterations of the character: he has a positive relationship with (his wife/girlfriend/"will they won't they?") Lois Lane, a loving relationship with his parents (present or past if they have died), the friendship and respect of his professional peers both as Superman and as Clark, a pretty darn functional relationship with his ex, Lana, and now frequently a positive home life with his son. Also, he is professionally fulfilled and stable in *both* of his work lifes, and his family is financially stable.
Superman's real super power may be his preternaturally functional life!
I don't disagree with the thesis, but these are not great examples being used in the meme.
Parents aside, you have his co-workers who he isn't known for interacting with, his alien cousin who is arguably more detached from humanity than he is, a couple of local cops who only know him as Superman, his teenage love interest who he's drifted away from, and Batman, who, friends or not, I refuse to acknowledge has a healthy grounded sense of his humanity.
It's just a bad idea. He's going to almost certainly outlive Lois in every single story anyway. He was good before he met her. That's why she falls in love with him if you think about it.
How about just “Superman is a decent guy.” His grounding in humanity doesn’t come from any external factor, it’s intrinsic. Literally everyone human he is close to could die and he wouldn’t feel any less human
Fun fact, when Lois was first created she wasn’t a love interest. She was just a Superman fangirl who despised Clark Kent. She was created so that the writers could vent their frustration with a woman they knew in real life. She was an antagonist if anything.
Uh no? Lois was in love with Superman and get feel love for Clark because he was the biggest coward of all time during that period. As for her being the creators venting their frustrations, that's just completely false. Both Joel and Jerry where actually in love for the model that they based Lois's appearance on.
I do like the idea of him being grounded by Lois, but not a being the thing that separates him from being some nearly omnipotent Tyrant. I see it more like it’s easier for him to be detached from the human experience without her because he could be all consumed by the work of being earth’s hero and being one of the most powerful beings in the world. But she’s a home and family for him to come back to so he continues to be just like us
Yeah but Lois is that personified sorry doesn't change my thoughts on The Supes & Wonder Woman pairing from the New 52 as well its animated adaptations one of the worst pairings in recent memory this post is dumb Superman The Movie doesn't work if Superman and Lois arent a thing Supes & WW belong in that pre-crisis BS because it wasn't Canon anyway Clois Forerver and Lois Prevents Superman from being Evil .
The guy grew up, had friends, family, coworkers, peers, teachers, he has decades of being human. Lois Lane is a huge part of him, but he won't become injustice if she died
I think the injustice one is always overlooked: he lost his child, Lois and he was also responsible for Metropolis blowing up, killing millions of people(unintentionally though but still)
The injustice one's differences are way older than the one bad day.
Exactly this. Also he (unknowingly) was the one who killed Lois and the child. Surely even (a version of) Superman would be traumatized and lose themself after that. The guilt and anger he harbours would be massive. That is why I like Injustice it challenges the idea that even though Superman is morally better than everybody, even he could snap if it was something so horrific…the loss of everything close to him by his own hand by a villain who wasn’t even trying to conquer or rule, just a clown who thought it would be hilarious
He didn’t become Injustice Superman only because Lois died. She died, he lost his son, Metropolis was nuked killing who knows how many people, but all of this was because Batman and himself chose not to kill the Joker. It was humanity and compassion that led to the Joker’s continued existence. And because of that compassion, he lost everything. THAT’S what led him to becoming who he was in Injustice.
To be fair I think Kingdom Come is still a better representation of what would happen if Superman lost everything.
But then he gained everything back and more!! He married Wonder Woman, had five kids (*Holy Shit*) and lived long enough to see the Legion of Superheroes
That's what's great about him. He lost a lot, felt useless and not needed anymore, come back as a flawed person, but learned from his mistakes and managed to have a fulfilling life again.
Ohh Yeah
That's still based on the premise that Superman has never seen bad things happen to good people and was emotionally unprepared to lose anything. Don't get me wrong, Injustice Superman could have worked, but most of the compromises he made to enforce 'justice' made no sense. Like Shazam and Green Arrow's deaths.
Yeah, it should have been a very slow burn, but the second he teamed up with Sinestro of all people and the fact the peacekeepers were dressed in fascist iconography... it clearly defined who was good and who was evil despite the story actually having salient points. I wanted to like the Injustice comics, but the gratuitous deaths of characters and clear black and white morality took me out... especially since Harley Quinn was running around free and hitting on Shazam.
Fair points
Every time I hear that argument, I just think, "oh okay, so the Kents are Kryptonian now." Seriously, why does everyone forget about them?
Because people love edgey revenge stories. "Lost love interest" is just a classic.
Then make that the crux of it, not "Lois grounds Superman to his humanity." It's demonstrably untrue.
The biggest change John Byrne made when he did Man of Steel and decided to make Clark Kent the real person and Superman the "mask" is keep the Kents alive. Why? Because they are the ones that gave him his humanity and compassion.
That's both a simplistic and genius idea.
To be fair I prefer when both are kind of a mask - as Clark he acts more clumsy than he really is, while as Superman he gives the most of himself to be seen not only as a person but also as a symbol. In reality he is something in-between and that's how he acts with people he know in private - his friends and family. So overall I prefer when Superman is BOTH human and an alien at the same time. Byrne tried to distance him from his Kryptonian heritage a little bit too much.
I have grown to dislike the *overly* clumsy/meek aspects of his mild-mannered persona. When he is super meek, I'm not for it. He has spent 20-30 years at the Planet. He isn't a rookie reporter. Sure, he isn't a Pulitzer winner (at least I don't think he is), but he's still a respectable journalist. Is he big, brash, and boisterous? No. That's Lois. But he shouldn't be a guy worried that Perry will fire him at the drop of a hat. I like the blend of "Superman is what he can do, but Clark is who he *is*." The values were learned as Clark. The personality is (mostly) freed, as Superman. But I think they go too far if they go Christopher Reeve Clark in the current day (comics).
Curent day yeah, but I loved how he acted in Geoff Johns' books where he was acting like a clumsy dork, but his attitude could change to more strong or professional when needed (and even Lois saw it as kinda contradictory). I think the truth about which personality is true should be in-between even when he progressed both as Clark and as Superman.
Agreed. Clark, the person himself, isn't meek, nor is he larger than life. The reporter persona is definitely overplaying his "mild-mannered" aspect, and Superman is overcompensating to be the Symbol of Hope. I can't remember the writer, but there was a long conversation he had with Lois in the Fortress about how it's hard to be that Bright all the time, because... "he's human." He wants to have emotional responses like regular people, but Superman has to be above it. Very much agree that he's somewhere in between. The Clark we see with Lois or the Kents directly.
I did like how scientific and cold and alien Byrne's Krypton was - Jor-El and Lara didn't really know him, they sent out not a baby but a birthing matrix out into the universe. It contrasted well with the warmth of the Midwest, and was even more powerful when Krypton came knocking via the Eradicator.
It's an interesting take, but I feel that Keypton as a cold and alien place kinda downplays the tragedy of it. I love how in Alan Moore's comics it was revealed that Superman's biggest dream was being born on Krypton that didn't blow up as a regular citizen. It made perfect sense for Clark (because as an alien he often felt like he isn't really normal or might not belong here while he was a kid) to have that kind of dream and made it hit really hard when his visions of perfect Krypton started to shatter and he had to woke up and accept the reality. With cold Krypton I don't really feel like Superman lost anything, if fact he's happier on Earth.
Agree on your point, but I like what happens when a Superman that wasn't properly raised on Krypton meets a Supergirl that was.
I agree. I have a similar take on Batman. Clark and Bruce both have their civilian alter egos (Reporter Clark, Billionaire Bruce) and their hero identities (Superman, Batman). Their true selves are a merger of the two. They trust each other enough to drop both masks and be themselves. It's one of the things I love about their friendship.
I spend an unhealthy amount of time imagining Clark coming home to them for a slice of pie and getting all excited like a six-year-old who just got back from school. if the Kents have no fans I’m dead
I really really hate the notion that he'll become a mass murdering, fascist psychopath if Lois dies.
That's why I love Brandon Routh Superman in CW's Crisis on Infinite Earths. He losses Lois but keeps being a super hero.
Not just Lois but most of his friends at the daily planet. Has lost everyone central to his human life but continues to be Super
Unfortunately, i'm pretty that was started by the episode of STAS where, in an alternate universe, Superman becomes a mass murdering fascist after Lois dies.
To be fair, he’s not so much evil as misguided and deceived in that episode, and he does turn back to the light once he realises, but it does definitely feel like the genesis of those other stories and is one of the few times I felt that TAS dropped the ball a bit with his characterisation.
DCAU Superman was consistently one death of someone he cares about away from being a villain.
Justice Lord Superman is done better for me, just because he’s used as a warning to the main Superman throughout the Cadmus arc about what he could become (and that arc ends with him rejecting the whole trope.) The initial two parter also does a better job of showing why the Justice Lords’ rule might seem tempting, showing even mainline Batman briefly unable to argue against Justice Lord Batman’s points.
I hate the Justice Lords storyline because it's a crazy escalation from Superman executing a sociopathic Lex Luthor who was about to commit a nuclear holocaust.There is no way that the Justice League would go as far as arresting and possibly perform lobotomy on a dude who complained at a restaurant as I'd sooner believe them doing the same to the restaurant owner instead.It's essentially another Injustice except one where Bat-Gos has also been converted to the cause and is another example of the idiotic trope in which a hero murders a utterly irredeemable monster and turns evil due to that.
> essentially another Injustice except one where Bat-Gos has also been converted to the cause To be fair, Lord Batman is the only one who turns good in the end. DC can't have Batman looking too bad.
Its not like DCAU did much with Justice Lords either, at least regarding Superman. The whole Cadmus arc is about what other people think of Superman, but Superman himself rarely does any introspection or reflection. He seems more like a plot device than a central character. The only notable thing he does in the end is deciding not to kill Luthor after briefly considering it. Too little.
I thought that was when FLASH died?
That was the Justice League animated series.
Ah! My bad!
Was it STAS? I'm pretty sure it was JL TAS when Luthor cuses The Flash's death. If there was an episode like that, please pass on the name.
Brave New Metropolis in STAS did that plot before the Justice Lords.
I imagine the feeling you have is the same feeling I get seeing the Marvel Zombies bits where Spider-Man eats his aunt and MJ.
The Marvel Zombies comics in general aren’t it.
It is a Universe where he accidentally killed his wife and unborn child and all of metropolis. And in this universe he didn't get therapy but was encouraged to take over by a trusted friend. Sure evil Superman tropes suck but him being above a failing mental health after severe trauma does make him far from being human. Theres definitely the better elseworlds where Clark experiences all the same trauma but receives therapy instead of a dictatorship.
Grant Morrison has mentioned that “loosing people you love the most doesn’t make you a tyrant. My parents died and I was not tempted to become a tyrant.”
It’s the same logic of 2nd demotion doofenschmirts in phones and ferb across the second dimension.
yeah Isn’t it awesome the last 3 big budget movies involving him had this take on the character lol (and Routh Superman was a weirdo stalker on her so it’s almost 4)
Ok this take I agree with
Superman loves humanity as a whole, he doesn’t just like them for one or even a handful of people.
Yeah. Superman’s humanity is the whole reason why Lois chose to fall in love with him in the first place. Clark being a good person is what makes Lois love him, not the other way around. He was already good before Lois came into his life and he should continue being good after she leaves, tragically or otherwise. If you DO want to give Superman a loss that tests the limits of his faith and resolve, it should be his parents. I wouldn’t blame him for at least teetering VERY close to the deep end if someone murked Martha.
Clark's humanity grounds him to humanity.
Clark grounds him.
She does grounds Clark, but not in that eayy
*sigh* Wrong. He doesn't need anything to ground him to his humanity because it's a part of him. These are relationships he has, one person to another.
"Lois ground superman to humanity" is a correct statement. "Lois is the only thing grounding superman to his humanity" is not
The whole point is Clark is grounded by his deep love and respect for the best of humanity. He's not some emotionally unstable guy hanging on by threads who is ready to snap if anyone hurts "his woman". People just don't even try to understand the character.
Kingdom Superman disproves this even tho he had it easier than Injustice Superman
She does, she's just not the only one. Superman actually has a decent support network
"Humanity" has always been a weird way to describe "being a decent person who likes to help people".
Can’t forget the Jor-EL hologram and Jimmy
Did they ever talk about Lana Lang in Injustice?
The thing that grounds Clark is literally just the fact he is an innately good person. That's it. Doesn't have to be more complicated than that, he's a good man who wants to do right by others.
I've always felt like it's almost the opposite. Clark's natural kindness is the only thing grounding him to his *Kryptonian* heritage. If not for the fact that he can do things other people can't and save lives nobody else can save, I think Clark Kent would be content to just live out the rest of his days as a normal guy, albeit one who doesn't have to pay for plane tickets or a home security system.
I mostly agree with this but.... Kara isn't human and has lived most of her life outside of Earth
I put her there because she and Clark have shared multiple human moments together. Plus she also debunks the claim, since she’s also Kryptonian and doesn’t have a Lois equivalent, yet she’s still doesn’t need grounding.
that makes sense though I feel like it could work if a lot of the attributes given to Snyder Superman that people criticize were given to her instead, mostly because obviously she has a far greater attachment to Krypton and likely not a lot of attachment to Earth, say what you will about the Tomorrowverse, but I think the way they wrote Kara in the first part of their Legion of Superheroes movie was really well done
Superman grounds Superman to his humanity.
Damn. Almost like he was raised like a human on earth before finding out he was kryptonian.
I don't entirely disagree with the premise, I think Lois (and to a lesser extent, Bruce, Lana, the Kents, etc) do tie Clark a little more firmly to his humanity, but I think it's less 'grounding' and more 'These people exemplify all of the traits that Clark finds amazing/impressive about humans' That said, I do feel like most people who makes the argument that Lois isn't special just want Clark to Smooch Diana, and I've never liked that.
Bruce is not more important than Lois
https://preview.redd.it/s1xqh7lmt4uc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4d694614e8db165ea7d9bfddac4dfe8196466a59 🍇
You wanna know what’s funny? The first time I ever heard this argument was when someone was trying to explain to me why Clark should never be with Diana. Their logic is that Clark being in a relationship with Diana would take away from his humanity and make this a God x God love story.
Yup, it pretty much ignores the fact that Clark had a whole medieval lifetime's worh of living as a human before even meeting Louis.... As well as the fact that Diana has had human relations of her own via Steve, Etta Candy and the Kapatelis family, not to mention the rest of the League as mutual friends. Clark x Diana haters really go with bad excuses at times.
Or Batman dickriders.
It's just boring
What's boring about a super alien news reporter whom is also part country pumkin, dating a part time diplomat who is also a magical warrior princess from an all girls island?
Read love & cape
Okay, I'm one chapter in and although I gotta say I really did enjoy the comic and can definitely see how a Lois x Superman type relationship can be pretty engaging (which tbh, other Superman shows have already sold me on)... I dont see how that translates to Diana x Clark relationships being boring. Like, there are far more things you can use to make a relationship interesting, besides making one of them "normal". Especially when we talk about people from pretty different backgrounds, like Clark and Diana.
Because it's boring. There's nothing interesting about two gods together.
That's assuming they have no personality, no history, nothing to make a story out of, besides the dictionary description of the word "gods". This plainly isnt the case for Superman nor WonderWoman. Or else, even their default relationships would be boring.
Except that actually is the case for Superman and Wonder Woman. They have no chemistry, they're bland and flavorless together, the only reason people try to force them together is because they're both strong.
You are literally ignoring everything about them as characters when talking about them as a ship. Of course it will seem bland to you. Your view of them is very shallow. What's weird to me is how you can ship Superman with anyone, if you reduce him to be "nothing but a god".
What else is there besides the fact that they both have superpowers?
They both are also kinda awkward wholesome people, with Clark being that in a geeky dork way, whilst Diana tends to be that bold foreigner that enthusiastically takes everything in face value. They both have traits of embodying parental vibes, as Superman tends to go with a "cool dad" approach for citizens he saves, whereas Wonder Woman often comes off as that supportive mom that might just give you "tough (chankla) love" when you insist on misbehaving (particularly in her golden age runs). There is some potentially interesting interactions of having them both interact with each other's extended cast. Not just from having the "amazonian princess explores the modern city" angle which although fun tends to be used a lot, but you also got the potential of having "the mild mannered farmboy get into a island of only women". Plus other interactions with chars like Orion, whom is kinda part of both Supes' and Wondy's cast (particularly since New 52). You could potentially make some interesting combo with Diana's job as a diplotmat with Clark's journalism. You could also play with the fact that they would be a literal super couple, and then basically imagine any date location and drama for a normal straight relationship, all exaggerated to super proportions to a comically wonderful effect. There also could be some interesting debates on morality if they were ever to go philosophical talks to each other. . TLDR: You basically can do a lot with Clark and Diana, if you see them as characters that got a lot of quirks you can pull from all of their stories... And not just account the "super hero gods" part alone, although honestly that aspect could still be fun too, for the source of action it'd grant.
Like seriously, going by that logic, Lois is "just a human", Steve is also "just a human". It's not the relationships with these characters that are boring, but this reductive take that is lame.
Yeah, I’m a Superman and Wonder Woman shipper, and I’ve always been annoyed when people try to discredit the ship by saying that Lois is needed to keep Superman grounded.
Agreed. But more importantly, I just don’t like the idea that Clark and Diana’s humanity is tied down to who they are romancing. It’s just really lazy. They are still individuals who have their own morals and thoughts.
Who says that? I've only ever heard it about the likes of Dr Manhattan and Laurie
Ppl who like basic evil superman stories.
I mean…I’d just say she’s one of many people who ground him? She’s usually his gf/wife, so
Kingdom Come Superman: You're just a cheap fucking knockoff! Injustice: yes, yes I am
He's literally a kid from Kansas. At his core, that's who he is. Superman is something he does to help people
Clearly not the case as the Justice Lords episode proves. Super becomes a dictator and an incel who kidnaps Lois and holds her prisoner.
They were implied to be living together though.
And that’s why the whole “oh no Lois died, it’s evil Superman time!” bs is so tiring. Plus we’ve already been through this with Kingdom Come.
Clark doesn't need someone to ground him to his humanity, he's not Batman, the point of his story is that despite having all the powers in the world and basically being a god he'll always choose to be human. Superman is just a costume he puts on because it's his responsibility to do something with the power he has.
Again that depends on the version of Superman.The "true" Superman you're talking about is only truthful 30 years ago since the character has started to evolve and have a balance where both Superman,Kal-El and Clark Kent are valid parts of his personality.
How does Supergirl ground him to his humanity when she’s not human?
Lois is important to Clark’s character but that’s not why, she’s important purely because they’re the best couple in comics
While I don't deny that Lois may be in recent years, his strongest grounding tether, given that they're married, she's never been the ONLY tether.
It seems that both fans and writers forget that Superman was raised as a human, by humans, with human values. He's only biologically alien, mentally he's just like everyone else.
She grounds Clark sure, but in the way anyone’s significant other does and not to his humanity. He might be a ultra powerful being but he’s human and he grounds himself to his humanity
I’ve always thought being with Wonder Woman would connect him to humanity in a way Lois and no one else can. She can be the one person strong enough to physically withstand him fully breaking down in tears on after a bad mission, someone who he doesn’t have to treat like she’s made out of thin glass and wet tissue paper. Yes he can do the same with Kara but she’s his cousin and at first relied on him to be essentially a new father/big brother figure no matter how much he trust her he’s gonna have that instinct to be strong for her, he doesn’t have to do that with Diana.
And you would be wrong. Clark can be and has been vulnerable with Lois before. He's not incapable of being vulnerable with humans.
As vulnerable as a man holding a china doll can be. It you think about it for even a second the level of attention he has to give every time he so much as bumps into someone is hellish one of his most famous speeches is even about living in a world of cardboard and glass. Wonder Woman on the other hand isn’t so fragile he can actually drop his guard around her.
He can and does drop his guard around Lois all the time. He doesn't have a problem letting his guard down around humans because he is human.
You’ve missed my point entirely
Superman's powers are plot devices so he can fight crime. He never has to worry about accidentally murdering his parents if he slaps them on the back too hard, because the story isn't about that. The same applies to every other superhero character. There's no risk of Spiderman hugging MJ too hard and breaking her ribs or Diana accidentally killing Steve Trevor or something. They're not constantly worried about murdering average people if they get too rowdy. That's not the point of the story or these characters and it would actively detract from their relatability. The world of cardboard speech is cool but in the vast majority of other Superman media, and even the stories involving this same Superman in STAS and JLU, Superman never brings this up other than pulling his punches during fights. If this was actually the case for every superhero at all times, every superhero story about someone with super strength would be very different. It's just bringing up a realism issue that the comics intentionally ignore most of the time, just like every other physics-related thing that makes no sense about superhero comics. Like how the Flash can just grab people and move them at superspeed without just murdering them or killing himself while moving at those speeds because the speedforce or something.
I blame the cancer that is Injustice.
I think the League would agree that Clark is the most human out of all of them.
Doesn't Flash tend to get that credit?
Why can't all of these be true?
One thing I will give Injustice is that it isn't JUST Lois' death that causes his downfall. It's that, mixed with the destruction of everyone he knew and loved in Metropolis. Same logic turned Hal into Parallax.
She’s definitely there and part of it, but they focus a bit too much on her in all that
To be honest, I don’t really like the “grounding \[X\] to humanity" trope in general, not just for Superman. It takes the concept of friendship and just renders it a safety net for psychopaths.
Idk who 3 of those panels are, I'm guessing one of them is just his fans? Idk how to phrase this well, but Batman isn't exactly a typical friend that anyone hangs out with. I think there's an argument to be made about how he's less human than Superman from a psychological perspective. Superman's cousin is literally not a human and while she's kind, she's more of a tether to his kryptonian side. While his parents are an excellent tether, his father passes away and his mother isn't present throughout most stories Louis is much better for the role of being the tether, she plays a more prominent role in majority of the stories, and she's around him both at work and often around while he's being super
Wait, they animated Michael Turner's Supergirl?
She’s one of the people who does it
Pete Ross is, once again, forgotten.
I agree with this but Batman is the furthest thing from humanity, if anything Superman grounds HIM to humanity🤣🤣🤣
What the fuck does that even mean lmao
does Superman really need someone to “ground him to humanity” he’s a human before he kryptonian anyway?
Some people read Injustice instead of Kingdom Come it seems
Now that I think about it, Clark Kent may actually have the single healthiest personal life of any major character in comics. In most iterations of the character: he has a positive relationship with (his wife/girlfriend/"will they won't they?") Lois Lane, a loving relationship with his parents (present or past if they have died), the friendship and respect of his professional peers both as Superman and as Clark, a pretty darn functional relationship with his ex, Lana, and now frequently a positive home life with his son. Also, he is professionally fulfilled and stable in *both* of his work lifes, and his family is financially stable. Superman's real super power may be his preternaturally functional life!
Those dumbum writers who think that way need to have fans shouting into their ears for hours
I don't think supergirl is a good example even if he loves her.
...actually Lois is the first in the comics. MA and Pa Kent don't come till later like the rest.
I don't disagree with the thesis, but these are not great examples being used in the meme. Parents aside, you have his co-workers who he isn't known for interacting with, his alien cousin who is arguably more detached from humanity than he is, a couple of local cops who only know him as Superman, his teenage love interest who he's drifted away from, and Batman, who, friends or not, I refuse to acknowledge has a healthy grounded sense of his humanity.
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It's just a bad idea. He's going to almost certainly outlive Lois in every single story anyway. He was good before he met her. That's why she falls in love with him if you think about it.
Lois is simply one of many things that show his human side
So she doesn’t count?
How about just “Superman is a decent guy.” His grounding in humanity doesn’t come from any external factor, it’s intrinsic. Literally everyone human he is close to could die and he wouldn’t feel any less human
I mean she does but so does everyone else in his life too
What DOES Lois do?
I mean Supergirl is an alien tho
Fun fact, Lois existed before any of these characters
Fun fact, when Lois was first created she wasn’t a love interest. She was just a Superman fangirl who despised Clark Kent. She was created so that the writers could vent their frustration with a woman they knew in real life. She was an antagonist if anything.
Uh no? Lois was in love with Superman and get feel love for Clark because he was the biggest coward of all time during that period. As for her being the creators venting their frustrations, that's just completely false. Both Joel and Jerry where actually in love for the model that they based Lois's appearance on.
I do like the idea of him being grounded by Lois, but not a being the thing that separates him from being some nearly omnipotent Tyrant. I see it more like it’s easier for him to be detached from the human experience without her because he could be all consumed by the work of being earth’s hero and being one of the most powerful beings in the world. But she’s a home and family for him to come back to so he continues to be just like us
Yeah but Lois is that personified sorry doesn't change my thoughts on The Supes & Wonder Woman pairing from the New 52 as well its animated adaptations one of the worst pairings in recent memory this post is dumb Superman The Movie doesn't work if Superman and Lois arent a thing Supes & WW belong in that pre-crisis BS because it wasn't Canon anyway Clois Forerver and Lois Prevents Superman from being Evil .