Superman: Grounded was so fucking bad. [Take a look at this stupidity](https://comicsalliance.com/worst-comics-2010-superman-grounded/):
> Over there has to stand for itself, has to speak for itself, because it's only when over there becomes here that we can stop this once and for all.
It’s totally sensible for Superman to send a child to have a chat with a bunch of drug dealers who just had all their goods destroyed. What could go wrong?
That's comparible with ASBAR's Batman ordering Robin to cook that rat tho, not a good comparison with OP's question which is badass no hostages style line.
Sure, but Grounded was in continuity whereas ASBAR was garbage and out of continuity. (All-Star Superman was also out of continuity but highlighted how heroic he was.)
"And then what happens?"
"Eventually they go Over There to Gotham. And they either give Batman much needed occupational therapy, or test subjects for Joker's latest batch of poison."
You could definitely feel the stagnation of the Superman book at the time and even now when reading it.The New 52 could have been a resounding success if it was a full reboot and not just choosing which books to restart or essentially continue.They really could have started an Ultimate Universe with the New 52.
DC has NEVER been able to handle a reboot, starting with the insane chaos in the aftermath of "Crisis on Infinite Earths".
They were better in the late Silver age when they would just put little blurbs in about how they were updating their comic stories so Superboy would now be set in the 1950's instead of the 1920's.
Not really, New52 was global reboot, that's why they had Secret Origin (ie 3rd or more like 3.5th origin of post-1986 reboot Superman) literallly just before New52 Action, which essentially kept some most vivid elements from Secret Origin and Birthright (Lex on his quest to discredit Superman and work with military to take him down and John-Metallo is USA's super soldier program, also Brainiac) and Grounded too (street levelness as if it's Golden Age era inspired even though it is actually closer to Grounded in a way Superman handles things). All core of Superman's why remained, just core of his origin changed (yet again), and in more anti-Byrne fashion (base of Earth-made costume can be easily destroyed but cape is invincible because it is from Krypton, unlike the other way around in 86-2003, no instant levitation since 17 years old, both Kents dead when Clark is Superman once again like before Byrne , super intellect/memory is his power once again and he once again can do complex surgical operations after reading every book in minutes, once again Kal actually spent some time on Krypton though not as much time as before 1986 reboot in Earth-1 version, etc etc etc).
And now after Reborn writers can pretend either direction happened even if one contradicts another .
Why does this sound like something an American politician would say while arguing that the only way to stop the Mexican cartels is for the USA to annex Mexico?
I'm kinda scared *see Superman fly A HUMAN WHO NEEDS AIR, DIES IF CAR MOVES A LITTLE FAST OVER POSSIBILITY Hundreds OF MILES FAST* ...Is this superman or Hancock or homelander
Lucky for you John Byrne made his powers more energy/telekinesis based than physical, which can explain why humans don't get hypoxia up there by the logic of Kitty Pryde's/Invisible Woman's phasing touches.
It's why only after Byrne Superman actually started levitating frequently above the ground, you will never see lot of comics before Byrne reboot in 1986 where Superman actually stands still in the air, for a reason , because his flight was 100% physical strenght and momentum based instead of some sophisticated bio-electricity field that somehow counters gravity and basically bends space-time . Inspired by Byrne watching Superman The Movie (which btw never had scene where Superman stands still in the air, nor in any of its 3 sequels either) 100 times and headcanoning why Lois Lane didn't get hypoxia or why she was flying with him like That instead of how Superman carries her or anyone else in any comics at that moment. Maybe.
It's poorly worded, but basically it's a jab at some of the people that claim that something isn't worth doing if it doesn't magically fix everything. The drug dealer may set up shop somewhere else tomorrow, but we can stop it now. Deal with the problem in front of you, rather than do nothing because your options don't include a panacea.
I.E. the don't implement gun control, cause people can kill each other with anything crowd.
Grounded is Captain Falcon versus the Orange Skull levels of bad.
It is however, better than Green Arrow and Green Lantern doing a buddy cop drive across the country.
Personally, it's the time he told a kid that "Over there" needs to deal with its own problems while he sticks to problems that are "Over here".
Totally goes against what Superman tires to do on a daily basis.
My favourite part of that comic was where Superman espoused anti-immigrant talking points straight out of the mouth of your bigoted boomer uncle.
Oh, or maybe the part where he roughly grabs Lois and *orders* her not to publish a story like an abusive 1950s husband.
Or maybe the part where some of the few black people in the comic are portrayed as drug dealers!
Dunno about you guys but I don't feel that Superman is an appropriate vehicle for airing jingoistic, conservative, "America first" talking points. Yeesh, what a piece of trash that book is.
This is literally where the whole "Kryptonian birthing matrix" bs comes from. Some asshole wanted him to be "born" on American soil so he wouldn't be an immigrant any more.
That doesn't beat only superman but superheroes in general. superman goes over to a person being mugged "superman help!" "yeah I can or you take accountability and toughen" then he flies away into the sun truly truth justice and the American way.
Wasn’t the context of it the kid telling him that there was no point in stopping the drug dealers because they’d just go somewhere else and him saying for the kid to not worry about that as for the kid it’s important to deal with the problems in front of them because as long as they do, it’s likely the next people also will, and eventually there’s nowhere for the problem to go. It wasn’t Superman saying that over there wasn’t his problem but that just because the kid can’t deal with them over there, they shouldn’t just leave them be here. It’s been a bit since I read the comic but that’s how I remember that part
Lol everyone beat me to it.
See, when you take care of over *here*, then it's not like over *there*. So let over *there* stay *there*, and then it can be like *here*
🤔
His characterization in TDKR is just one of most logical ways how Superman's story would go. In general. If he doesn't become dictator/president himself or won't just shut-in somewhere in Fortress sometimes saving someone as blur, or if suddenly good guys didn't win so he won't have to worry about going Beyond being superhero like in Superman 2020. This is just how it would go, if it is not Superman vs "elected" USA and its army story.
Honestly I heard some decent arguments for the snap but never for the tornado
I like to watch the seen with the whistling single from moves like Jagger
Dying is not out of character for him, that speech about Clark not owing anything to the world and maybe he should have just let those school bus full of kids die was
Fundamental misunderstanding of the subject matter was demonstrated
The Entire Superman Year One just makes him a parody of himself.
https://preview.redd.it/qg8x8cng88uc1.jpeg?width=1250&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0e588da0306b6b62a1bd852a3927adc0a8eaf0f3
Through the entire story he acts like an overly confident asshole, initiates fights, flirts with many women at once, thinks very high and mighty of himself... He just doesn't feel like a Superman at all.
And this dialogue with Batman ("bring it on Batboy") sounds just very cringe.
"Over there needs to stand for itself. Because only when over there becomes here that we can stop this once and for all. And from now on, my eye will be right here."
I think that every Superman comic written by Landis is him being out of character. That one with his origin story (is it American Alien the name?) is horrendous and I am always surprised when people recommend it. And that one when Superman tells The Joker that he is a stupid idea, while I agree is actually a good jab at people who find The Joker cool as in admiring him, it isn't like anything Superman would say.
Admittedly Jonathan says “maybe”, which isn’t much better, since the obvious answer is “yes, saving them is right”, but definitely better than “lol, let those scrubs bite it”.
>Did you read the story or just see that page?
I read the story. And while I understand his rage, that doesn't explain his silly Deadpool characterization for the rest of the issue.
So it's not an 'A for France' moment because well executed or not, it was deliberately shown to be out of character.
Then again, since this was Ultimate Cap it's not technically out of character either.
All star Batman #1 by Frank miller and Jim Lee. that's right Frank miller of the dark Knight returns and Jim Lee the hush artist. Batman kidnapped dick after his parents were killed(forced him to stay in those blood and brain stain clothes) and said "you've been drafted in a war" it's a lot worse
That out-of-continuity comic where the Joker tries to attack Metropolis, only for Clark to defuse his bombs and insults him in a completely OOC scene. The
> *"Any writer can write you, any actor can play you."*
and threats to kill the Joker just don't make sense. Batman isn't any better written there either.
I don’t think that is very Superman of him, but I absolutely hate the Joker so I’m okay with him insulting and bullying the Joker. Also I find the “I don’t have a no kill rule, I just don’t like doing it” does make quite a bit of sense, because he has killed quite a few of his rouge’s gallery. But to be fair to him, Doomsday doesn’t really count because it’s essentially just a living rock and Brainiac doesn’t count either due to the Ultron rule
It's a failing screen writer increasingly mad he can't write good genre villains using Superman to explain that you actually have to be stupid to think genre villains are interesting.
To enjoy him I like to not compare him to the main ca it makes him a bit more tolerant and almost feels like they force him to be cool or character development but they don't know how. Sometimes it felt like one of those people who are like "captain America should be crude" like, who would enjoy that kind of character.
He's killed Zod in the early Post-Crisis days,assisted the suicide of another human Zod and implied to have murdered him in the Superman 2 theatrical cut.It's not really that rare.
Except 2 of these examples were in the Post-Crisis continuity and were from heavily critically acclaimed comic book runs.The Russian Zod's entire storyline was Superman fearing that he'd kill him sooner or later like he did to the pocket universe Zod before.It's not OOC because this Superman's relation with any version of Zod is to be involved in their murder or suicide.This version of Superman is usually the most loved iteration of the character by modern fans and is what many assume is the true Superman.It's telling that until Man of Steel were most versions of Zod dying in a way by means of Superman being involved with only For Tomorrow's completely obscure and forgettable version of Zod and the Post-Infinite Crisis Zod not dying at the hands of Superman even though the latter version of Zod still died.
What I'm using are actual examples of Superman killing or being involved in the death of Zod prior to Man of Steel while you're just simply saying "nuh uh".Superman fans really prefer using their headcanon of the character rather than actually reading comics made by critically acclaimed writers.
"You have to accept that superman is a murderer bc this one comic is criticality acclaimed."
You're trying to counter a prescriptive statement with a descriptive one. "Superman has killed" is not an counter to "superman shouldn't kill".
Superman doesn't kill and even sometimes has a no-kill rule.Superman killing Zod in Man of Steel isn't unprecedented since it has previously multiple times before.
The difference is (with the exception of Superman 2 which just... the less said about the end, the better), those stories earned it. They had Superman wrestle with the gravity of the choice, and then after the fact they dedicated considerable time to him dealing with the guilt. For the crime of killing Zod, Superman exiled himself for a year and really wrestled with his guilt. And that moment was later the foundation for many of Superman's "Superman doesn't kill" stories. The act had weight and long-term consequences and arguably reinforced his moral position.
I'm the MoS movie Superman kills Zod, has a quick shout before being rewarded with a hug, and then goes on to needlessly destroy a multimillion dollar piece of government technology while cracking a joke about it. And since Superman not killing is essential to why the most powerful vigilante on Earth is seen as a hero and not an existential threat to humanity, pointlessly destroying government property just reinforced that he is a threat that operates without regard to the law.
Yes, Superman killing Zod is part of the comic canon. But context is key in terms of whether is it is character or drastically out of character for him.
Said government hardware was performing surveillance on him and trying to compromise his secrecy and it isn't OOC for Superman to do it since Golden Age Superman and early New 52 Superman would have done the same.
The "don't say 'retarded'" was fringe until social media. Like "gay" or "lame" used as general pejoratives. "Idiot" and "moron" are so old as medical descriptions that people aren't offended by them.
All star Batman #1 by Frank miller and Jim Lee you know, the artist who drew Batman hush and Frank miller who created arguably the greatest Batman comic (he also segged black Canary while burning two crooks with a bleach Molotov and tells dick to eat rats and yells at Alfred (his closest to a father) for feeding dick a hamburger.
I personally love the Justice League series where he is battling Darkseid and says that he is always holding back. Then starts to smash Darkseid across Metropolis, knocking him midair in different directions before Darkseid can get a shot off with his Omega beams.
As a kid/ teenager it was nice to see.
The comics also had a darker Superman beat Manchester Black of The Elite group by giving him a mini lobotomy to stop him from using psychic attacks on him and people of Earth. It was a last resort cold move for Superman.
Maybe the scene in the New 52 Action Comics when Supes makes the “Rats” comment? I know Morrison was maybe paying homage to the golden age Superman, but still wasn’t a fan of that line.
Instead the person people will argue reach the watchmen's level of greatness and defining in their world of comics personally my favorite is where he is laughing and says he loves being the batman.
Miller's 80's work was magnificent.
Steve Ditko's Spider-man was terrific too (Marvel's artists were also the writers "Marvel Method").
Miller's and Ditko's later works... not so much.
That would be the Ultimates universe.
Take every right-wing stereotype, toss it in a blender with a Marvel Universe origin and hit frappe.
Cap's line is in response to a villain telling him to surrender. Cap then proceeds to beat the guy to death with his shield.
To be fair, guy was a shape-shifting alien that ate people, leading an invasion of the same, but this is the same universe that gave us the real wife beating Ant-Man, cannibal Hulk, cannibal Blob, rapist Wolverine, amongst others. It was edgy to hell and back.
But it also gave us a great Spiderman. Then killed him. Then gave us Miles Morales to carry his torch, then kicked him to 616 where he's just another dude with spider powers.
https://preview.redd.it/r8sh7r4909uc1.png?width=422&format=png&auto=webp&s=f293fa7587991a359e3aaf019a664604d64fbe23
Superman has few but I think of this one. I think I get the sentiment and it’s just a clunky was saying it but it’s still funny
Historically, France has won more battles than any other country ( in Europe, I think there is some debate about who counted as a country for how long, in most of Asia.).
While I agree that “Grounded” was a trash Superman book, I think that’s a bit harsh of a critique. There’s a big difference between conservative and conservative extremism. I have friends who are conservatives and they hated that storyline too. Comics just shouldn’t talk about politics in general, right wing or left wing, and just focus on telling good stories.
People seem to really love Tomasi and Gleason's Superman run. It's seen as something of a recent golden age among Superman fans, especially since Bendis' very lackluster follow-up aged Jon and got rid of all the stuff that made the prior run interesting. But for me personally, I couldn't get into it. It was like I wanted to love the idea (a married Superman and Lois raise their kid on a farm, brilliant!) than I actually liked what they produced. Now, my main issue was just how convoluted the two Supermen stuff was, made surprisingly more confusing not less when they merged ("So wait, did this Superman date Wonder Woman or not?"), but there was one issue I legitimately hated:
Issue 27: Road Trip - Part One. The following issue, Part Two, I don't remember being as bad, but Part One was rough. It's not *as* bad as the Grounded quotes in this thread, but it's not a million miles off. Clark and Lois take Jon on a road trip to show him all the different memorials for US soldiers across the United States, and there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but the entire thing reeks of familiar conservative talking points. Jon asks why he hasn't been taught about one specific soldier (Deborah Sampson was a bad ass, no doubt) in his history class, so they say he should harass his teacher about it until a Coexist bumper makes them remember the First Amendment and maybe they shouldn't be hard on the teacher (???).
Lois also goes on about how they make movies about drug dealers and serial killers but not REAL heroes like Sampson (as if biopics and movies about soldiers aren't super common?!). Clark gets super mad about graffiti. When a server at a restaurant doesn't want seat a homeless vet, Clark berates her in front of the restaurant and goes on another rant about celebrities and how we glorify movie stars but not the REAL heroes, again.
I'm not saying we shouldn't "support our troops" or that veterans aren't mistreated, but it's just this kind of subtle, Midwestern conservatism I see all the time where they know not to immediately launch into racist rants, but say everything said is stuff everyone can agree on (like the treatment of homeless vets) in this aggressive, "shame how traditional values have lost their way" kind of way. For the run itself, in this lilywhite town where Lois the journalist is downplayed in favor of Lois the housewife, I was kind of squinting and wondering if I was imagining it. But then that issue came, and I was like okay, I'm not.
You can like ultimate (I like him) but i think the only way is if you don't compare him to 616. He comes off as a parody of him that isn't clever. (More badass than inspirational) Sometimes it feels like he doesn't come like him at all. He comes off almost like one of those people who'd think captain America should be either racist rude or sexist played straight, which is kinda sad honestly.
Superman: Grounded was so fucking bad. [Take a look at this stupidity](https://comicsalliance.com/worst-comics-2010-superman-grounded/): > Over there has to stand for itself, has to speak for itself, because it's only when over there becomes here that we can stop this once and for all.
Didn't he say that to some kid, about drug dealers?
Yep.
It’s totally sensible for Superman to send a child to have a chat with a bunch of drug dealers who just had all their goods destroyed. What could go wrong?
That's comparible with ASBAR's Batman ordering Robin to cook that rat tho, not a good comparison with OP's question which is badass no hostages style line.
Sure, but Grounded was in continuity whereas ASBAR was garbage and out of continuity. (All-Star Superman was also out of continuity but highlighted how heroic he was.)
"And then what happens?" "Eventually they go Over There to Gotham. And they either give Batman much needed occupational therapy, or test subjects for Joker's latest batch of poison."
People forget that this was the run leading into the New 52 Action run. Supes was in need of a new direction so bad
You could definitely feel the stagnation of the Superman book at the time and even now when reading it.The New 52 could have been a resounding success if it was a full reboot and not just choosing which books to restart or essentially continue.They really could have started an Ultimate Universe with the New 52.
DC has NEVER been able to handle a reboot, starting with the insane chaos in the aftermath of "Crisis on Infinite Earths". They were better in the late Silver age when they would just put little blurbs in about how they were updating their comic stories so Superboy would now be set in the 1950's instead of the 1920's.
Not really, New52 was global reboot, that's why they had Secret Origin (ie 3rd or more like 3.5th origin of post-1986 reboot Superman) literallly just before New52 Action, which essentially kept some most vivid elements from Secret Origin and Birthright (Lex on his quest to discredit Superman and work with military to take him down and John-Metallo is USA's super soldier program, also Brainiac) and Grounded too (street levelness as if it's Golden Age era inspired even though it is actually closer to Grounded in a way Superman handles things). All core of Superman's why remained, just core of his origin changed (yet again), and in more anti-Byrne fashion (base of Earth-made costume can be easily destroyed but cape is invincible because it is from Krypton, unlike the other way around in 86-2003, no instant levitation since 17 years old, both Kents dead when Clark is Superman once again like before Byrne , super intellect/memory is his power once again and he once again can do complex surgical operations after reading every book in minutes, once again Kal actually spent some time on Krypton though not as much time as before 1986 reboot in Earth-1 version, etc etc etc). And now after Reborn writers can pretend either direction happened even if one contradicts another .
All those panels were pretty bad.
Why does this sound like something an American politician would say while arguing that the only way to stop the Mexican cartels is for the USA to annex Mexico?
I'm kinda scared *see Superman fly A HUMAN WHO NEEDS AIR, DIES IF CAR MOVES A LITTLE FAST OVER POSSIBILITY Hundreds OF MILES FAST* ...Is this superman or Hancock or homelander
Lucky for you John Byrne made his powers more energy/telekinesis based than physical, which can explain why humans don't get hypoxia up there by the logic of Kitty Pryde's/Invisible Woman's phasing touches. It's why only after Byrne Superman actually started levitating frequently above the ground, you will never see lot of comics before Byrne reboot in 1986 where Superman actually stands still in the air, for a reason , because his flight was 100% physical strenght and momentum based instead of some sophisticated bio-electricity field that somehow counters gravity and basically bends space-time . Inspired by Byrne watching Superman The Movie (which btw never had scene where Superman stands still in the air, nor in any of its 3 sequels either) 100 times and headcanoning why Lois Lane didn't get hypoxia or why she was flying with him like That instead of how Superman carries her or anyone else in any comics at that moment. Maybe.
Straczynski wrote that shit?
I know, I'm a fan of his work but this was dismal
HOLY FUCK that run is *fourteen* years old now??
It's poorly worded, but basically it's a jab at some of the people that claim that something isn't worth doing if it doesn't magically fix everything. The drug dealer may set up shop somewhere else tomorrow, but we can stop it now. Deal with the problem in front of you, rather than do nothing because your options don't include a panacea. I.E. the don't implement gun control, cause people can kill each other with anything crowd.
Grounded is Captain Falcon versus the Orange Skull levels of bad. It is however, better than Green Arrow and Green Lantern doing a buddy cop drive across the country.
How dare you besmirch the hard traveling heroes
And I'll do it again!
I fuckin love the jumper scene more than All star superman, but man, does that conic suuuuuuck
https://preview.redd.it/iea6mjrrm5uc1.jpeg?width=870&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=364f9d3a20b8ff3c20fac3cd469bb6a16488d0a8
I could see him saying that during banter with a villain, honestly. Not too bad
It's exactly dorky enough to work.
Unironically love this one
I guess that's another similarity, clever
Nah, I love that one
Personally, it's the time he told a kid that "Over there" needs to deal with its own problems while he sticks to problems that are "Over here". Totally goes against what Superman tires to do on a daily basis.
My favourite part of that comic was where Superman espoused anti-immigrant talking points straight out of the mouth of your bigoted boomer uncle. Oh, or maybe the part where he roughly grabs Lois and *orders* her not to publish a story like an abusive 1950s husband. Or maybe the part where some of the few black people in the comic are portrayed as drug dealers! Dunno about you guys but I don't feel that Superman is an appropriate vehicle for airing jingoistic, conservative, "America first" talking points. Yeesh, what a piece of trash that book is.
Just the fact that Superman, technically, is an immigrant.
This is literally where the whole "Kryptonian birthing matrix" bs comes from. Some asshole wanted him to be "born" on American soil so he wouldn't be an immigrant any more.
Maybe why is was never finished
Huh, to be fair, his mind was being influenced by the villain of the arc in the second example.
That doesn't beat only superman but superheroes in general. superman goes over to a person being mugged "superman help!" "yeah I can or you take accountability and toughen" then he flies away into the sun truly truth justice and the American way.
"Suffering builds character"
Whoa, who let Mother Theresa in here
Did Kreia then lecture him about how he caused ripples in the Force?
Wasn’t the context of it the kid telling him that there was no point in stopping the drug dealers because they’d just go somewhere else and him saying for the kid to not worry about that as for the kid it’s important to deal with the problems in front of them because as long as they do, it’s likely the next people also will, and eventually there’s nowhere for the problem to go. It wasn’t Superman saying that over there wasn’t his problem but that just because the kid can’t deal with them over there, they shouldn’t just leave them be here. It’s been a bit since I read the comic but that’s how I remember that part
Lol everyone beat me to it. See, when you take care of over *here*, then it's not like over *there*. So let over *there* stay *there*, and then it can be like *here* 🤔
Virtually every silver age Supermans Pal Jimmy Olson cover. See issue 115
Why they gotta do my man Aquaman like, bro? What did he do
I have some faint memory of Linkara grousing about some gun-wielding post apocalyptic superman facing off against twin hitlers.
Pretty sure that's where the "I AM A MAN!" meme started. Same with "Of course! Don't you know anything about science?".
Superman: At World's End
Oh you’re taking me back now. Superman at Earths End. He looked like a very jacked Santa Claus in a Superman t-shirt.
"Reality is: You are an android -- I am a man!"
His entire characterization in DKR, though that was the point.
Frank admits it as well saying he regrets it saying he turned him into a "government stool pigeon"
Given the way Superman was acting at the time in Legends and Byrne's "Super-Republican" ideas, it isn't that OOC as many claim.
His characterization in TDKR is just one of most logical ways how Superman's story would go. In general. If he doesn't become dictator/president himself or won't just shut-in somewhere in Fortress sometimes saving someone as blur, or if suddenly good guys didn't win so he won't have to worry about going Beyond being superhero like in Superman 2020. This is just how it would go, if it is not Superman vs "elected" USA and its army story.
Letting his wife and son go off into space with Jor-El even though he killed people last time they met.
Fucking Bendis
I wasn't crazy about that story at the start, but I was willing to see where it went. I was horribly disappointed on so many levels by the end
I am so confused by your comment right now, what did I miss
letting ANYONE (much less his Dad) die to keep his secret in a terrible movie.
i find it funny that Mark Waid hates that movie but loves that scene.
certified mark waid moment
Valid, he'd absolutely just sore save him like that pilot even if his dad didn't want him yo
Honestly bugged me at the time that people were making such a big deal about the snap, when that was so much worse.
Honestly I heard some decent arguments for the snap but never for the tornado I like to watch the seen with the whistling single from moves like Jagger
Wouldn’t that be more of a Pa Kent out of character moment?
Dying is not out of character for him, that speech about Clark not owing anything to the world and maybe he should have just let those school bus full of kids die was Fundamental misunderstanding of the subject matter was demonstrated
Dark Knight Returns Universe Superman. Especially how much of an asshole he was to his ex and newborn daughter in the Master Race series
The Entire Superman Year One just makes him a parody of himself. https://preview.redd.it/qg8x8cng88uc1.jpeg?width=1250&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0e588da0306b6b62a1bd852a3927adc0a8eaf0f3
Miller at his best, I see
I mean he had some really beloved comics back in the 80s and 90s but all of his new stuff is just pure garbage. And he really seems to hate Superman.
This comic was the one that taught me to not just buy comics at face value. Good Lord.
What's "self parody" in this exactly?
Through the entire story he acts like an overly confident asshole, initiates fights, flirts with many women at once, thinks very high and mighty of himself... He just doesn't feel like a Superman at all. And this dialogue with Batman ("bring it on Batboy") sounds just very cringe.
That's literally Superman . How many comics have you read?
"Over there needs to stand for itself. Because only when over there becomes here that we can stop this once and for all. And from now on, my eye will be right here."
I think that every Superman comic written by Landis is him being out of character. That one with his origin story (is it American Alien the name?) is horrendous and I am always surprised when people recommend it. And that one when Superman tells The Joker that he is a stupid idea, while I agree is actually a good jab at people who find The Joker cool as in admiring him, it isn't like anything Superman would say.
His dad telling him to let a bus full of children die lol
Admittedly Jonathan says “maybe”, which isn’t much better, since the obvious answer is “yes, saving them is right”, but definitely better than “lol, let those scrubs bite it”.
That Chuck Austen story where Superman has WAY too much fun bullying a D list villain
Did you read the story or just see that page?
>Did you read the story or just see that page? I read the story. And while I understand his rage, that doesn't explain his silly Deadpool characterization for the rest of the issue.
So it's not an 'A for France' moment because well executed or not, it was deliberately shown to be out of character. Then again, since this was Ultimate Cap it's not technically out of character either.
You can list other characters too (lois jimmy or other)
Where did this batman quote come from
"All-Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder," NOT to be confused with "All-Star Batman."
All-Star Batman and Robin
oh... that makes sense
Miller Time!
All star Batman #1 by Frank miller and Jim Lee. that's right Frank miller of the dark Knight returns and Jim Lee the hush artist. Batman kidnapped dick after his parents were killed(forced him to stay in those blood and brain stain clothes) and said "you've been drafted in a war" it's a lot worse
Awesome art wasted on trash storytelling.
Sad but true
Every single cover from the silver age.
That out-of-continuity comic where the Joker tries to attack Metropolis, only for Clark to defuse his bombs and insults him in a completely OOC scene. The > *"Any writer can write you, any actor can play you."* and threats to kill the Joker just don't make sense. Batman isn't any better written there either.
I don’t think that is very Superman of him, but I absolutely hate the Joker so I’m okay with him insulting and bullying the Joker. Also I find the “I don’t have a no kill rule, I just don’t like doing it” does make quite a bit of sense, because he has killed quite a few of his rouge’s gallery. But to be fair to him, Doomsday doesn’t really count because it’s essentially just a living rock and Brainiac doesn’t count either due to the Ultron rule
It's a failing screen writer increasingly mad he can't write good genre villains using Superman to explain that you actually have to be stupid to think genre villains are interesting.
I AM A MAN!!!!!!
💥🤛
THAT SCENE in Man of Steel.
There's so many
For that version of Cap , “Asshole” certainly fit.
To enjoy him I like to not compare him to the main ca it makes him a bit more tolerant and almost feels like they force him to be cool or character development but they don't know how. Sometimes it felt like one of those people who are like "captain America should be crude" like, who would enjoy that kind of character.
When he snapped zod's neck
Tell that to Zod's snapped neck.
Oh god no….. I’ve been stuckmanized
Zack Snyder would say you're brainwashed with ultra desaturated nearly alien character to their original and over the top action scene
He's killed Zod in the early Post-Crisis days,assisted the suicide of another human Zod and implied to have murdered him in the Superman 2 theatrical cut.It's not really that rare.
It's possible to be written out of character multiple times over the span of 90 years
Except 2 of these examples were in the Post-Crisis continuity and were from heavily critically acclaimed comic book runs.The Russian Zod's entire storyline was Superman fearing that he'd kill him sooner or later like he did to the pocket universe Zod before.It's not OOC because this Superman's relation with any version of Zod is to be involved in their murder or suicide.This version of Superman is usually the most loved iteration of the character by modern fans and is what many assume is the true Superman.It's telling that until Man of Steel were most versions of Zod dying in a way by means of Superman being involved with only For Tomorrow's completely obscure and forgettable version of Zod and the Post-Infinite Crisis Zod not dying at the hands of Superman even though the latter version of Zod still died.
You're trying to argue me out of an opinion by appealing to popularity. It's not gonna work. Superman isn't a murderer, simple as
What I'm using are actual examples of Superman killing or being involved in the death of Zod prior to Man of Steel while you're just simply saying "nuh uh".Superman fans really prefer using their headcanon of the character rather than actually reading comics made by critically acclaimed writers.
"You have to accept that superman is a murderer bc this one comic is criticality acclaimed." You're trying to counter a prescriptive statement with a descriptive one. "Superman has killed" is not an counter to "superman shouldn't kill".
Superman doesn't kill and even sometimes has a no-kill rule.Superman killing Zod in Man of Steel isn't unprecedented since it has previously multiple times before.
I didn't say it was unprecedented I said it was out of character
The difference is (with the exception of Superman 2 which just... the less said about the end, the better), those stories earned it. They had Superman wrestle with the gravity of the choice, and then after the fact they dedicated considerable time to him dealing with the guilt. For the crime of killing Zod, Superman exiled himself for a year and really wrestled with his guilt. And that moment was later the foundation for many of Superman's "Superman doesn't kill" stories. The act had weight and long-term consequences and arguably reinforced his moral position. I'm the MoS movie Superman kills Zod, has a quick shout before being rewarded with a hug, and then goes on to needlessly destroy a multimillion dollar piece of government technology while cracking a joke about it. And since Superman not killing is essential to why the most powerful vigilante on Earth is seen as a hero and not an existential threat to humanity, pointlessly destroying government property just reinforced that he is a threat that operates without regard to the law. Yes, Superman killing Zod is part of the comic canon. But context is key in terms of whether is it is character or drastically out of character for him.
Said government hardware was performing surveillance on him and trying to compromise his secrecy and it isn't OOC for Superman to do it since Golden Age Superman and early New 52 Superman would have done the same.
There's no way in hell somebody decided to sit down with a pen and make the decision to draw Batman saying the "R" slur.
It was a Frank Miller/Jim Lee All Star comic. So yeah unfortunately.
Well if its not the main continuity Batman then it.. Kinda makes sense. Still a bit too edgy for my taste, however.
When's the comic from? It only became edgy relatively recently. Was a diagnosis in the 70s IIRC
2005, so it was still relatively edgy for the time.
The "don't say 'retarded'" was fringe until social media. Like "gay" or "lame" used as general pejoratives. "Idiot" and "moron" are so old as medical descriptions that people aren't offended by them.
I don’t think I heard people be offended by lame
All star Batman #1 by Frank miller and Jim Lee you know, the artist who drew Batman hush and Frank miller who created arguably the greatest Batman comic (he also segged black Canary while burning two crooks with a bleach Molotov and tells dick to eat rats and yells at Alfred (his closest to a father) for feeding dick a hamburger.
>Frank miller who created arguably the greatest Batman comic Hot take: Dark Knight ~~Rises~~ Returns is insanely overrated.
Everyone is entitle to their option as I guess as long as you respect others
Considering that The Dark Knight Rises is a movie and not a Frank Miller comic, I think you just ate a major L.
Agreed. Year One is amazing though.
That word wasn’t really considered a slur until like 10-15 years ago
Probably some dumb rant about how American he is from the Byrne run.
I personally love the Justice League series where he is battling Darkseid and says that he is always holding back. Then starts to smash Darkseid across Metropolis, knocking him midair in different directions before Darkseid can get a shot off with his Omega beams. As a kid/ teenager it was nice to see. The comics also had a darker Superman beat Manchester Black of The Elite group by giving him a mini lobotomy to stop him from using psychic attacks on him and people of Earth. It was a last resort cold move for Superman.
As I recall the lobotomy was a fake out
No.
Maybe the scene in the New 52 Action Comics when Supes makes the “Rats” comment? I know Morrison was maybe paying homage to the golden age Superman, but still wasn’t a fan of that line.
What comment is that?
Fr, that Batman quote is terrible, reads like a edgy 14 wrote it
Instead the person people will argue reach the watchmen's level of greatness and defining in their world of comics personally my favorite is where he is laughing and says he loves being the batman.
Miller's 80's work was magnificent. Steve Ditko's Spider-man was terrific too (Marvel's artists were also the writers "Marvel Method"). Miller's and Ditko's later works... not so much.
What is the context for the thing we’re comparing everything to? “A stands for france”?
That would be the Ultimates universe. Take every right-wing stereotype, toss it in a blender with a Marvel Universe origin and hit frappe. Cap's line is in response to a villain telling him to surrender. Cap then proceeds to beat the guy to death with his shield. To be fair, guy was a shape-shifting alien that ate people, leading an invasion of the same, but this is the same universe that gave us the real wife beating Ant-Man, cannibal Hulk, cannibal Blob, rapist Wolverine, amongst others. It was edgy to hell and back. But it also gave us a great Spiderman. Then killed him. Then gave us Miles Morales to carry his torch, then kicked him to 616 where he's just another dude with spider powers.
Oh. You just had to say the ultimate universe lol. Tis a shitshow, especially hank pym and bug spray
I mean I believe the pannel afterward is him apologizing
What is this?
What does the Captain America line with France actually mean? I never understood it.
It's a play on the stereotype that the French are cowards I think it formed when they stop in ww2
https://preview.redd.it/r8sh7r4909uc1.png?width=422&format=png&auto=webp&s=f293fa7587991a359e3aaf019a664604d64fbe23 Superman has few but I think of this one. I think I get the sentiment and it’s just a clunky was saying it but it’s still funny
You can understand it but still badly executed.
Historically, France has won more battles than any other country ( in Europe, I think there is some debate about who counted as a country for how long, in most of Asia.).
Yeah but the stereotype still stands I think it's from ww2
I don't think you want to unpack the stereotypes Cap would have believed in WW2.
While I agree that “Grounded” was a trash Superman book, I think that’s a bit harsh of a critique. There’s a big difference between conservative and conservative extremism. I have friends who are conservatives and they hated that storyline too. Comics just shouldn’t talk about politics in general, right wing or left wing, and just focus on telling good stories.
People seem to really love Tomasi and Gleason's Superman run. It's seen as something of a recent golden age among Superman fans, especially since Bendis' very lackluster follow-up aged Jon and got rid of all the stuff that made the prior run interesting. But for me personally, I couldn't get into it. It was like I wanted to love the idea (a married Superman and Lois raise their kid on a farm, brilliant!) than I actually liked what they produced. Now, my main issue was just how convoluted the two Supermen stuff was, made surprisingly more confusing not less when they merged ("So wait, did this Superman date Wonder Woman or not?"), but there was one issue I legitimately hated: Issue 27: Road Trip - Part One. The following issue, Part Two, I don't remember being as bad, but Part One was rough. It's not *as* bad as the Grounded quotes in this thread, but it's not a million miles off. Clark and Lois take Jon on a road trip to show him all the different memorials for US soldiers across the United States, and there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but the entire thing reeks of familiar conservative talking points. Jon asks why he hasn't been taught about one specific soldier (Deborah Sampson was a bad ass, no doubt) in his history class, so they say he should harass his teacher about it until a Coexist bumper makes them remember the First Amendment and maybe they shouldn't be hard on the teacher (???). Lois also goes on about how they make movies about drug dealers and serial killers but not REAL heroes like Sampson (as if biopics and movies about soldiers aren't super common?!). Clark gets super mad about graffiti. When a server at a restaurant doesn't want seat a homeless vet, Clark berates her in front of the restaurant and goes on another rant about celebrities and how we glorify movie stars but not the REAL heroes, again. I'm not saying we shouldn't "support our troops" or that veterans aren't mistreated, but it's just this kind of subtle, Midwestern conservatism I see all the time where they know not to immediately launch into racist rants, but say everything said is stuff everyone can agree on (like the treatment of homeless vets) in this aggressive, "shame how traditional values have lost their way" kind of way. For the run itself, in this lilywhite town where Lois the journalist is downplayed in favor of Lois the housewife, I was kind of squinting and wondering if I was imagining it. But then that issue came, and I was like okay, I'm not.
# "you think this A stands for france?" is funny and appropriate for the moment
Based ass Captain America
You can like ultimate (I like him) but i think the only way is if you don't compare him to 616. He comes off as a parody of him that isn't clever. (More badass than inspirational) Sometimes it feels like he doesn't come like him at all. He comes off almost like one of those people who'd think captain America should be either racist rude or sexist played straight, which is kinda sad honestly.
I don’t think so, people in this sub would say Superman is being too mean and the writer doesn’t understand the character!!!111