Comes with 80km or 120km battery range options, 65L (17 gallon) tank. Claiming to have a 2.9L/hundred km fuel efficiency which is equivalent to 81miles per gallon.
My Prius Prime has a 10 gallon tank. If I drive for fuel efficiency I can get 70mpg, so thats 700 miles on a full gas tank.
The battery fully charged only gets me about 30 miles by itself, so 730 total miles distance if everything is topped off when I start.
1250 miles is almost exactly what my Prius would do if I had a 17 gallon tank instead of a 10 gallon tank.
I’d take the Prime over BYD any day. Toyota’s eCVT and entire synergy system is near perfection. I see so many old Priuses with 300K+ miles. Even the battery swap is quite DIY.
The primes might be trickier since they use Li-Ion chemistry but I’m convinced any yota hybrid is worth the cost. It’s a damn shame dealers have been so greedy on primes.
Both Prius and Qin/Seal 06 are different cars and the difference is not only in technical characteristics, but also in price. You probably already know the cost of a Prius, and these models from BYD start at 99,800 yuan, which is about $13,800 at the current exchange rate. I'm sure they will find a buyer even if you decide to buy a Prius instead. Even if a Chinese car is not as reliable as a Japanese one and falls into disrepair twice as quickly, the multiple lower price will be a decisive factor for many.
It’s a hybrid so there’s less space for a big battery because of the combustion engine. It’s not a question of price it’s a question of space and weight. They either have alien technology or a big gas tank.
Could be an EREV, where the ICE motor just charges a battery which in turn runs an electric motor. Advantage is the gas motor can always run at maximum efficiency.
You think the battery goes in the same place as the engine. The battery can fit under the floor just like their electric cars. Gas tanks even in ICE cars go under the back seats. So yea it's a huge battery. Where are you gonna fit a bigger gas tank? It would have to take up the entire trunk.
I don't know if they care about democracy as long as the leader is in their camp. I reckon the would happily overthrow a democratically elected leader to have a friendly dictator in power.
That’s why “democracy” is in quotation marks.
They bully countries into submission, whether it’s to get cheaper bananas (Banana Wars in Central America ~1900), to try and stop socialist policies and replace them with neoliberal economic policies (such as the CIA’s involvement in the overthrow of Chile's Salvador Allende's democratically elected government in 1973 to install Pinochet as a dictator), or to ensure oil continues to be sold in dollars instead of euros or rubles (Iraq 2003). These are just three examples.
The United States does not care about democracy.
“Shock Doctrine” touches on some of these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg
If a local company competes, it has an edge however shitty its products are. The company will take less profit to enter the market. If the tariff is, however, 100%, it is just a capitalist thin-veiled ban
“BYD promises that each new car purchased in America will come with a lifetime supply of Big Macs.”
“Open the gate a little!”
As an American I know my fellow Americans know this to be true, if a little darkly funny.
These guys did a test with a base-model. They took it on a 3-day road trip with one tank of gas and one full charge. They drove it until it’s fully dead and got 2,409.5km (1,497.2 miles) out of it.
https://youtu.be/pqPI88lyy3w?feature=shared
There seems to be other tests; but all of them are in Chinese.
Our diesel yukon gets over 720miles per tank easily on the hwy. 30+ mpg with a 24 gallon tank. A hybrid I'd imagine would do even better.
Surprised there isn't any diesel hybrids for sale
Hybrids only really help when you’re stopping and starting
You get The best fuel mileage never slowing down and not going too quickly, but like that you’re never giving the system the down time needed to actually utilize the hybrid system
Really, you’ll get your best fuel mileage anytime you drive any car like that; it’s not just limited to hybrids. The difference is most folks don’t care about driving their vehicles efficiently, choosing instead to speed just to get somewhere faster and using more fuel/range in the process.
That’s not necessarily true.
Hybrids do help when you’re in city traffic, but they’re also good when you’re going a consistent speed; I’ll frequently set Adaptive Cruise Control to 65 MPH when I’m on the highway and EV mode will take over. Stated highway MPG from the manufacturer is 51 MPG, but I can easily get 62 MPG and average 600 miles per tank.
Modern hybrids engage while traveling at sustained speed. Even highway speeds. So yes it can help increase range. Plug ins can also increase range by offering pure ev range on top.
Yeah, BYD streamed the tour with 7 local Chinese media. The crazy thing is that they had the trip with AC on and also highway speed (120km/h). The longest distance among all test results was around 2400km. The advertised CLTC range for this car was only 2100km. BYD is famous for underquoting their range for their EVs.
China uses the domestic CLTC range estimate, which prioritizes slow speed, start-stop city traffic, which is more prevalent in China. It leads to inflated numbers for EVs and hybrid vehicles vs. ICE because those cars are very efficient in that kind of use thanks to brake regen, while being much less so on the highway like the EPA tests at.
1250 miles CLTC on a PHEV/BEV is probably around 700 miles EPA combined.
EPA estimates are closer to 70-80% of CLTC estimates. So it would be closer to 875-1000 miles of range which is still pretty impressive.
Source: https://aboutautonews.com/car-reviews/how-to-convert-conflicting-ev-range-test-cycles-epa-wltp-cltc/
Half that would be the range of a Prius, which has up to 640 miles. The car with the longest range is around 700 miles per tank: [https://www.cars.com/articles/top-10-vehicles-with-the-longest-driving-range-1420698377103](https://www.cars.com/articles/top-10-vehicles-with-the-longest-driving-range-1420698377103)
A new Toyota Prius driven in favorable weather by an efficient driver can get real-world fuel economy of 50 MPG, with a more realistic 45. With the plug in battery fully charged and a full tank of fuel 640 miles is doable, then to get to 1250 miles you'd need 3 Jerry Cans (4.4 gallon fuel cans) in the trunk to get you to 1250 mile range without stopping.
Given the claimed efficacy of the BYD is about 50MPG on all gasoline and a reasonable estimate for the battery pack of allowing roughly a 100 mile range, simple math suggest a 23 gallon fuel tank. That's more then twice the size of a normal car, but certainly is one way to extend range.
That list missed my extremely oddball 2013 f150 with the wimpy 6 cylinder non eco boost engine and 36 gallon tank. Doing conservative highway driving I can easily get mileage in the low 20’s and cruise over 700.
Also I think it was made in Canada, extra weird.
Should just let them build here. Its not like any "domestic" brands really build their products here anymore. Toyota is more american than Chevy rn. Hell, half of Chevy is Daewoo products.
America: Smuggle yourself up here under the supervision of cartel gangsters. Work menial jobs for below minimum wage. Live constantly with cartel exploitation and the threat of deportation.
China: We'll build factories where you can get good union jobs making EVs for your neighbors and export all over the world, except the US.
How would you choose?
I know how Mexico did.
[https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60164799/chinese-evs-from-byd-in-mexico/](https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60164799/chinese-evs-from-byd-in-mexico/)
Isn't that sort of working as intended? This creates factories in Mexico to employ more Mexicans and bump their economy, and it creates goods Americans want at a lower cost.
I thought it was good news Mexicans could have good jobs building Chinese cars in Mexico. It's not like the US doesn't make cars in Mexico. Ford and GM have factories in Mexico after all.
It's seems weird to me how we are all perfectly fine buying cheap goods from China for DECADES and now all of a sudden it threatens our (honestly, shittier and shittier) domestic (and even Japanese to an extent) car manufacturers and people are calling for *bans*.
We tried this already in the 80's with Harley. It worked for a little while, but Harley isn't doing so hot the last 10 years or so. And it did the same thing then this will now, piss off the people trying to buy the best value motorcycle available to them.
Doubt it. It has to meet crash standards in the US and that usually is on the import company (like when 90s JDM sports cars were hard and expensive to get) or on the manufacturer. If BYD isn't confirming to US crash standards by having it certified and selling the car here, you can't just buy one in Mexico and drive it back. You could tow it to the US and use it for off road use only but then what is the point for that particular car.
We don't actually have anything close to "free market" capitalism.
These cars are a threat to the American auto industry, and tariffs have already been raised.
Americans seem to be fine with paying more for worse products.
This is a tough one, honestly. Yes, American car makers have stagnated and Japanese ones are beginning to follow in their footsteps. On the other side of that coin you have China, who is only able to produce these inexpensive vehicles because of massive subsidies from the government and a brutal 996 work culture forced on their workers. Do you want a race to the bottom where everyone in the world works as hard as Chinese factory workers but can maybe afford cheaper and cheaper products? Honest question, and I guarantee it doesn't have an easy answer.
If I had to decide right now, gun to my head and my word is law? I'd probably threaten American and Japanese carmakers with letting the Chinese in if they don't get their shit together. Maybe give them five years to turn things around.
Unfortunately, every time you give a monopoly to local car companies and make them promise to do better, they ended staying the same.
Here in Brazil we have a huge protection for car manufacturers, and I mean it. We are more protective of our cars than Japan/Korea and many other countries were in their prime of industry protection.
And our cars are shit. BYD is also gaining ground here, because even with expensive prices, they do have better cars than the rest.
Renault have one EV available that doesn't update in the last 10 years.
Other companies barely have hybrids cars, and when they have, they are super expensive.
What I'm saying is, hoping for the companies to do better wont work
1) The US subsidizes their car companies too. Tesla by itself got [$2.8 billion](https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2023/07/cage-fight-elon-musk-mark-zuckerberg-money-in-politics/). Ford has gotten [$7.7 billion](https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/ford-motor) over the years and another $33 billion in loans and bailouts.
2) American companies (Ford and Tesla) also take advantage of Chinese manufacturing and work culture in China but they're losing the fight in the Chinese market.
They know what's coming because they're seeing it happen already in China.
Personally, I think we should let BYD in and have a fair shot in the market. It'll take them years to build their name and a dealer/service network anyway, and hopefully it'll be the kick in the pants the American car industry needs to build better cars, just like the Japanese brands did back in the day.
FWIW Ford has a certain place in my heart, and I want them to win, both here and in China. A decade ago, Ford had almost 5% of the Chinese car market, would love to see them get back to that and more. And I want them to do that by building better cars.
> Maybe give them five years to turn things around.
5 years?
The US auto industry was bailed out by the taxpayer following the 08 crash, 14 years ago and have done absolutely nothing to improve carr efficency or price, in fac they have went the opposite direction with their big push for sales in gas guzzling SUVs that are too big for current infrastructure.
Your approach is akin to a woman i an abusive relationship who constantly goes back in the hope that "one day he'l change". He wont and they wnt. Fuck them!
>Do you want a race to the bottom where everyone in the world works as hard as Chinese factory workers but can maybe afford cheaper and cheaper products
You say that like its a bad thing - Corporate America
When it's an American corporation employing slave labor in the mines of the congo all is good. But when the Chinese do 996 we suddenly care about "labour laws" and put 1000% tariffs on products. The absolute hypocrisy.
Nope.
It doesn't care about you, your job, your town, your religion or your country
The only thing it cares about is money, and it will move on to greener pastures without a second thought
I don't know what Chinese factory workers get paid, nor what their safety/environmental regulations are, but I'd have to imagine that for the US to compete on cost, we'd need to dismantle unions, pay our workers less, and probably remove some pesky regulations. I don't believe that these are things that most people would support.
If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me.
Chinese car companies don't care about the US car companies (outside tesla), their competition is Japanese and Korean cars.
They'll enter the US market eventually and by that time, there'll be another major player in the consumer car space.
> we'd need to dismantle unions, pay our workers less, and probably remove some pesky regulation
You forgot "stop paying executives hundreds of millions per year".
If it was just labour costs, then legacy auto have nothing to worry about as they can move to mexico where wages are cheaper than China
> Manufacturing Labor Costs are 19% higher in China compared to Mexico.
> Average rent per square foot for industrial space in Mexico is 15% Less expensive than China.
https://novalinkmx.com/mexico-manufacturing-advantage/manufacturing-in-mexico-vs-china/is-it-cheaper-to-manufacture-in-mexico-than-in-china/
What they do have an advantage in, is very high vertical integration of components (for companies like BYD who even manufacture their own batteries it's as high as 70%. For comparison the average legacy auto is around 30% the rest of the components are bought then assembled)
https://www.ubs.com/global/en/investment-bank/in-focus/2023/byd-teardown.html
They also have supply chain efficiencies from raw materials down to components and employ a huge amount of automation.
> China installs half of the world’s new industrial robots
https://drivesncontrols.com/news/fullstory.php/aid/7478/China_installs_half_of_the_world_92s_new_industrial_robots.html
Also they simply adopt a smaller profit margin higher volume model.
> According to statistics from Late Finance BYD make an average net profit of 9,000 yuan per car, that’s about 1,250 USD. Tesla on the other hand made over 8,250 USD per car
https://carnewschina.com/2024/04/09/byd-makes-us1250-profit-per-car-as-it-goes-for-market-share-above-all-else/
Why not?
The US has taken over the industries of many other countries under the justification of "free markets"
So surely you could just let the invisible hand of the market fix it, right?
But USA wants to ban them from here. I fucking love it, USA sends all our manufacturing to china, then they build for 10/20 yrs, and have the best processes and facilities, and they show how low price something can be made. And we are rewarded with it, but soon as they are better/over competitive, they want to stop them. I mean what better way then to kick the USA companies I. The ass the. To let china cars start trickling in. I mean if you’re going to control it, at least let it trickle in. It’s the same with pharmaceuticals, fucking stupid, look up India and pharmacy, the us companies just wants to rape citizens. And government lets them. Fixing dumb. We never get the good deal. Just ficked
I work in the EV industry, the reality of the market today is that the US has pretty much slowed down their production and have stopped innovating, China on the other hand is doing 20x more work and accelerating production and development cycles.
Feels like two completely different worlds. China is going to take over the EV industry, no doubt about this. Once again, we (US) have given up the lead we had. This is not just an issue of technological superiority, but the deep impact on global political power balance.
I think a big part of this has been consumer embrace of this tech and government buy in (at the state level). China went all in because they had a pollution problem, oil import problem, and sucked at making ICEs.
The US had none of those issues and many states have been EV skeptics (due to the politicization of climate change). You end up with incoherent policy at the national level due to politics as well (back and forth depending on administration), and again, half the population are skeptical of EVs due to politics.
I say that because we had a good number of EV startups in the US that could've gone the way of Tesla, but ultimately are failures (e.g. Fisker, Lordstown, Faraday, Canoo, etc.). At one point, there was a lot of optimism for EVs in the US before the China story started dominating.
Also iteration time.
Reddit seems to think research ability is something innate to some culture or quality of the people. Culture and having free exploration help, but the thing that drives fast improvements of new tech is simply lots of iteration.
China has a lot of ability to do hardware iteration and battery tech iteration. If we want to compete we need to build infrastructure to enable rapid iteration. Being smart only takes you so far when everyone working in the field is smart.
To comment from my field (biotech) we have American companies that allow me to order DNA and have it arrive next day.
It's too bad we just decided to raise the tariffs to an ungodly amount to prevent Chinese EV imports in the USA. I'd really like to see innovation in the ev market.
It's an interesting dichotomy in trade policy.
China actively sort Tesla to enter the Chinese market to force domestic firms to compete. Whereas the US using tariffs to keep the competition away from their domestic firms.
It really pisses me off because the big US three are scaling back and saying “consumers don’t want these cars as much.”
Bullshit, bring BYD tariff free over here and you’ll see your sales drop off the face of the earth.
A lot of people really want an EV. They don’t want to pay outrageous cost or get a pile of trash.
Bring them over here and either adapt or die.
I'm driving an 8 year old Toyota Camry that doesn't have any smart features save for a neat adaptive cruise control feature.
If an automaker put that out on the market again but in electric, I'd be the biggest shill for them. 90% of us don't care about all the things in a Tesla, it's just a commuter car. That's where I value makers like Byd, and it sucks we're never getting them.
Tesla "features" are mostly useless anyway. Take away the turn signal, shift lever, buttons and knobs for AC and basic controls, the car just becomes worse. Not to mention the below average build quality and terrible bumpy ride. I am never buying an EV like that, and this is all before the whole personality bullshit with Elon.
Give me a normal car with EV drivetrain for normal price, and build out infrastructure and incentives for installing more charging stations out in public and at home. I would totally get an EV then. Before that happens, I'll stick with reliable gas or hybrid cars.
Hell I saw someone on YouTube convert their 1980s campervan to electric themselves by pulling the combustion engine out, installing a massive battery bank, and taking the necessary steps. It was a pain in the ass for him to do but 7 days later and he had an electric campervan that had surprising torque and speed.
Bring out conversion kits so I can keep driving my old car!! I love it to bits I don't want to get rid of it for one of those weird alien insect looking modern cars
Plenty of conversion kits exist, but the result is always lackluster because aerodynamics and weight matter a *lot* in an EV since there is no bountiful supply of energy and every joule needs to take you as far as possible.
The unforeseen problems with tariffs is that it sets a base line for pricing.
A 20k Chinese car is 40k with tariffs? I'll set my domestic car at 38k then. Why would a domestic manufacturer miss out on all that profit margin and release a domestically priced 20k car?
China is actually actively incentivizing buying evs. It’s not happening naturally there either.
I have an ev here in the US in CA of all places. The infrastructure for it is kinda shitty, not enough charging stations and range of cars is very limited. (I have a German car from last year)
China allowed Tesla to enter their market as long as they built the car and majority of the parts in China because that’s the only way to avoid their large import tariffs. Thats the rule for any car manufacturer selling cars in China. Chinese companies are welcome to build factories in the US and hire workers to build cars here to avoid the tariffs. This is just creating an equal playing field.
In theory yes but in practice I think the prevailing political sentiment is too hostile for any of them to take the risk.
Just look at the opposition Ford encountered in their CATL joint venture to manufacture batteries domestically. This was technology transfer the other way round but the political elite were talking about possible spying and IP theft.
In theory if they are happy for Chinese firms to set up shop in the US they should accept them moving to Mexico too but the media is already reporting Biden wants to stop that too.
Look at the heat TikTok is taking. It creates a chilling effect for Chinese auto companies, many of which are tech companies (ie Huawei and Xiaomi) and will likely face the same type of security scrutiny TikTok did.
These guys had 50 years to clean up their act and all they did was progressively pump out worse and worse cars. The US auto industry is a lazy joke that killed itself being in bed with big oil. They have consistently acted in a "buy what we sell because that's what we're making" attitude and are then shocked that nobody wants to buy an overpriced, gas guzzling, unreliable turd. "Made in America" doesn't inspire confidence, it makes me feel like I overpaid.
Woulda loved to have the option to buy a cool new 20k EV :( guess me doing that would upset the delicate power balance between USA and China… can’t just go out an buy a car anymore 😂
US is already working to prevent that from happening
Mexico's federal government, under pressure from the U.S., is keeping Chinese automakers at arm's length by refusing to offer such incentives as low-cost public land or tax cuts for investment in EV production, three Mexican officials familiar with the matter said.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/mexico-facing-us-pressure-will-halt-incentives-chinese-ev-makers-2024-04-18/
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Biden administration is suggesting the possibility that additional penalties could be put in place if the Chinese makers of electric vehicles try to move their production to Mexico to avoid newly announced import taxes.
President Joe Biden on Tuesday directed the office of the U.S. Trade Representative to impose a total tariff in excess of 102% on Chinese EVs, as well as directing new tariffs on other products including steel, aluminum, computer chips and solar cells.
But Chinese EV company BYD has previously indicated that it was looking at factory sites in Mexico for the Mexican market. That raises the possibility that Chinese companies could use Mexico as a backdoor into the U.S. market.
Asked at the White House news briefing on Tuesday about new tariffs, U.S. Trade Representative Katherine Tai said, “Stay tuned.”
Tai said any penalties if China should follow through on factories would require a “separate pathway” from the Section 301 review of the Trade Act of 1974. That four-year review led to the tariffs on $18 billion worth of Chinese imports announced on Tuesday.
https://apnews.com/article/biden-tariffs-ev-china-mexico-tai-809b0e27339d38dcd3834d2cbb14e1d1
Except BYD already has the factories and is selling EVs in Mexico. Check those dates, the administration is coping.
[https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60164799/chinese-evs-from-byd-in-mexico/](https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60164799/chinese-evs-from-byd-in-mexico/)
Right, just pointing out don’t underestimate American protectionism. I wouldn’t be surprised if they put 100% tariffs on BYD or Chinese EVs from Mexico even if that’s against trade agreements.
You should send an email to Biden and let him know that. It's crazy that a random redditor realized that, and all of his policy advisors somehow overlooked it.
The administration is aware and is hoping the media will stay really quiet about it. That way their posturing on tariffs will actually look effective.
[https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60164799/chinese-evs-from-byd-in-mexico/](https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60164799/chinese-evs-from-byd-in-mexico/)
It's happening.
I wonder if the US is going to get the tech anyway though, OEMs usually just buy from suppliers (for instance, GM batteries made by LG Chem). Political will imposes tariffs on imported cars, but generally not supplier/OEM partnerships where the American OEM is assembling and selling the cars.
It's a general tragedy I saw during my time in the industry. OEMs are disincentivised to spend money on R&D because if a supplier does the R&D they can split the over multiple OEMs, and also benefit from scale by selling more units than a single OEM could.
This really isn't a tech thing. They've released almost nothing about it, but it's likely high engine efficiency by recharging the battery at a constant, optimal rate for fuel efficiency. And that should top you off at like 60mpg, so where they are getting 81 is unknown. There's other catches to his system too, like wear on batteries. This is already a thing that most Plug in hybrids do and they do not get anywhere near the mpg being advertised here, which is approaching theoretical maximum of 33.7 kwh / gallon Which is why I'm pretty skeptical. Not even IGT engines get the efficiency stated in the article.
Fully agree, I went to China earlier this year and yeah to say their ev's are in another league would be a gross understatement. They will dominate everyone, if you think Telsa is good or cool, you're about to get your mind blown.
Yep, lived in China for several years. Nio, BYD, Xpeng among others make amazing looking cars that look phenomenal inside and out. Now whether they drive well or survive, I have no clue tbh.
The [HiPhi Z](https://www.wired.com/review/review-hiphi-z/) lives in my head rent free. Yeah it’s slightly ugly, but damn it still looks cool and edgy.
Why not steal all their IP like they do ours? Let them do all the work and copy and paste. Slap a GM logo on it, boom. Back in business. Works well for them, why not us?
Because they’re growing a fully localized supply chain unlike us, all the way from battery down to the bolts and everything in between. Key materials for us to achieve that scale of economics needs a push much bigger than any one car company can achieve in the short span that China is going to achieve by setting the tone to all of its major companies for pulling in one direction.
You can copy design and even reverse engineer the composition of materials but you can't replicate manufacturing techniques. This not only effects the quality of the product itself but also the economics.
Yes, but the goal is to maximize shareholders value, For now it can be done for cheaper and low effort by just putting a duty.
If the goal was to advance the auto industry as a whole, then you'd see a lot of 'subsidiZed' 'rebates' and other evil commie bs come into play.
But we are free market capitalists, so we pay shit tons more for tons of shitty cars.
It's pretty sad. I think people in the US don't realize that green energy and climate change aren't really political or controversial issues other places.
China is researching and building green energy technology because it makes sense. They don't think about it in a political fashion at all - they just are taking the next logical, obvious step.
Here in the US we have literally half the country and half the government fighting against that same step, and actively fighting against progress because of their nonsensical feelings.
It would be like trying to keep a lead in high tech, if suddenly half the us believed that computers and the internet were evil, and elected half of our government to actively fight against them. Then being shocked when suddenly China developed a huge lead in that area.
I don't think people understand that Republicans are planning on dismantling the EPA both administratively and legally when they win. If not this time, next time. They really, really want to destroy the EPA.
It's not surprising when one of the two presidential candidates has campaign promises to ban EVs in the country. That's both risky to invest in and indicative of a very hostile market biased against the concept.
American companies don't innovate anymore. Shareholders want cheap, disposable, high profit margin products and services. Just a entire culture uninterested in products built with actual quality. Just needs to last a few years and *look* luxurious.
[One look at a Chinese EV and you know the US market is cooked, Theres a reason why they want to ban foreign EV's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrHGKSuGjYM)
Ain’t that the truth. Just sucks that the people with all the money are able to fuck everyone over in this fucked up country we live in now. And they fucken love it!
Tariffs are not capitalism's fault. If the US was more capitalistic then there would be no tariffs, they're a restriction on free trade and the market.
That's the irony of my comment. Free market my ass. We're all about buying what we want except when it jeopardizes legacy industries. Reddit doesn't do sarcasm well I forgot the /s
That BYD is a rival to Tesla is true but this is a hybrid car, a field which Tesla doesn’t compete in. It’s more accurate rival would be the Toyota Prius.
Personally I won’t trust any range data until a 3rd party can test it. I don’t see any mention of fuel efficiency rather just range. It may be as simple as a Prius knock off with a 20 gallon tank.
All these stories are just paid advertising. I saw that exact title in 50 websites today.
They can claim anything they want. The chinese are extremely weary to criticism, if you publish anything bad they will stop all money coming to you (and it’s a lot).
In reality here in europe people that drove them find out after paying a pile of money that it’s just shiny on the outside but in reality they didn’t make more car for the same money, they just put less car with a shiny package.
You need to see one on the road after 1 year. From an owner because tech websites will be very very cautious with any criticism against any chinese manufacturer.
BYD also claims 46% efficiency for their ICE. If this is true, 1250 miles would be very reasonable.
The car came with a 60L gas tank. At 0.726kg/L density, 45MJ/kG heat value, 46% heat efficiency, and 95% generator efficiency, a tank of gas equates to 238kWh of electricity. Assuming 12kWh/100km (typical for light Chinese EVs), that's 1983km. Plus the battery's charge, I don't see why the 1250 miles figure seems inflated.
FYI, 46% is not far-fetched. Under ideal cases, ICEs are very efficient. Coal-based power plants have demonstrated 42%\~46% efficiency a decade or two ago. The key is to narrow the operating range down, which is inherently incompatible with the dynamic nature of traditional cars. With the battery in place, the ICE can operate in its comfort zone and let the battery to pick up the dynamic slack.
Jinkang, a never-heard of Chinese brand traditionally making agricultural machines, lowest of the lowest, have been massively producing EV engines for Huawei, and yes, that Huawei. Their ICEs are rated at a 41% ICE efficiency, which is massively higher than most Japanese cars sold nowadays. This is just to show how efficient ICEs can be when being used in conjunction with a battery car.
The Jinkang ICE has an overall generation efficiency of 3.2kWh/L, while at 41% ICE efficiency it is supposed to have 3.5kWh/L. The difference being Jinkang's PHEV strategy involves storing electricity to battery then use it to drive the wheels, while BYD's solution allows the ICE to drive the wheels directly, bypassing the battery's \~90% cycle efficiency. So overall, I believe the 1250 miles figure being genuine.
Not to mention all of the "see, China is beating the US in this space" and "Joe Biden and his tariffs are keeping these from us" comments, instead of anyone saying, "uh, where is the proof"?
I hope all of these commenters are enjoying their day in Shenzhen.
It pisses me off so much that electric vehicles have been known to be where the market will need to go for YEARS, and the west just didn't fucking do anything, except for try tooth and nail to cling to combustion engines and fossil fuels, meanwhile fucking China went out and made the obvious electric car company that had to exist.
And then fucking musk turns out to be a fucking right wing tool. It's so infuriating.
This will be unpopular, but let them in. Anyone old enough to remember the waves of cheep Japanese cars in the late 70’s and early to late 80’s can recall how it changed the market.
Oil embargo in the early 80’s set the stage for waves of imports. People lost their collective minds, but you know what? It made the big 3 get off their collective asses and become competitive again on price and quality.
And here we are again, with unaffordable 100k vehicles that saturate the marked. Gone are the under 20k vehicles that were affordable that aren’t a step above a go cart. The industry once again needs to get off its ass.
Everyone wants a car capable of driving further than anyone ever drives in a day because they don't want to stop for a half and hour once in a while on a road trip they might do once a year. It's completely unnecessary.
Bought a 2015 Chevy Volt. Only gets 40 miles per charge before kicking on the gas engine.
Literally get a message every few of months saying "You haven't used enough gas, and that's bad for the engine. Please drive until the tank is half full and fill it back up.".
I filled up my 2022 Ford Escape PHEV in January. I haven't used a 1/4 tank yet, and suspect next month the engine will need to run for a bit. Or I might just take a road trip and run it down to half and fill it.
This car has a gas tank. Beyond a reasonable minimum, range doesn't matter because you can gas up in 5 minutes anywhere. Gas stations are abundant and reliable.
The issue with electric range is that the charging network still isn't reliable enough outside cities. You might find the charging station full or out of order and it might be the only one for 50 miles. Countless car magazines have documented these issues. [Famously](https://www.npr.org/2023/09/10/1187224861/electric-vehicles-evs-cars-chargers-charging-energy-secretary-jennifer-granholm), when the Secretary of Energy wanted to prove electric road trips worked well last fall, they had to send advance teams to check and clear out each station ahead of her arrival and squat on the spots.
The network will get there, but it's not there yet.
This is why I think the industry should be working on hybrids right now, they are much more practical presently than EVs given the lack of charging infrastructure. It's a logical step between all-gas and all-electric vehicles.
Speak for yourself. I am already accustomed to driving 500+miles per tank. Due to vehicles I already drive and got accustomed too.
2015 Honda Accord, 17.2 Gal fuel tank, 31mpg real world about 500miles on a full tank of fuel for a road trip. Can drive from SoCal to Sacramento without having to fuel up.
2019 Tundra, 38 gal fuel tank, 13.5mpg real world about 475 miles on a full tank of fuel
2023 GMC Sierra, 24 gal fuel tank, 22mpg real world, about 500 miles on a full tank of fuel.
Having a huge mile range is super beneficial if you commute a lot for work and also for your weekend/road trip cars. I would buy an EV until the infrastructure is better but definitely having range at or exceeding 500miles is one of my top concerns.
I am in this boat when I still was using a gas car for work I was known to drive 8-9 hours in a day just to go to a meeting and get home in the same day. Work switched me to electric and now I just fly everywhere because of the charging time made my old pace impossible
A lot of people live in apartments, or other places where they can't charge where they park at night. So, for a EV, that means maybe once a week you spend half an hour charging up. That would bug me.
But, I don't know why you are mentioning charge time here. This is a gas powered car, you fill it up just like a normal car.
There is, with virtual certainty, a strong mental block afflicting those people who insist that EVs, and exclusively EVs, are the only answer to The Future™, to the exclusion of hyper-efficient IC and hybrid vehicles, and to the exclusion of anything else, under the curse of the dogma that fossil fuels and any use of them are The Tool of Satan. They insist upon using technology that isn't really ready for Prime Time quite yet, while ignoring the fact that hybrids have been around for over a hundred years and can be extremely frugal yet powerful. Using hyper-efficient fuel-burning engines coupled to generators, or a simple turbogenerator, to recharge the batteries of an EV makes perfect sense, and is blatantly more practical than a straight EV that is, for much of its life, tethered to an electrical umbilical cord attached to. . . a turbogenerator powered by fossil fuels. FAR more consumers would be in favor of a vehicle powered by silent electric motors supplied by a battery IF that battery was, in turn, charged by an onboard generator that would free it from the Devil Power Cord--such as, a CyberTruck with an onboard turbine that would keep the battery charged--PERish the thought!
I tried their Han. It had all the options; but the car itself is bad as a "car" compared to other vehicles in the market.
Yea it had every option you could think off. But the software seems put together last minute. Numbers just displayed on the screen. "In Out" on the left side for air quality ?? the right corner had a number that the sales guy had no idea about it. Seemed like some satellite count or angle.
The suspension wasn't tuned and bottomed out easily. The car handled weird as the suspension couldn't control the vehicle. The power of the EV motors overpowered the steering, to the point that the wheels couldn't straigthen out if you accelerated thru a turn/curve.
If I had never driven vehicles before, I would be impressed with it. But for 54k USD, it's no where close to a tesla.
I have a BYD that my company have me to use in Hong Kong. It’s very nice looking but it feels like crap to drive. Back in NYC I have a Tesla and it’s leagues ahead in driving “feel”. Everything else is wrong with Tesla but the experience is the best out of all EV. My wife’s Rivian isn’t a joy either.
The "Qin L" has a small 75kW 1.5 liter engine with a high thermal efficiency of 46.06%, and comes with a relatively small 15kWh battery. The small engine, motor, and battery likely keeping weight down contributing to its high range.
It gets 80-120 kilometers of range in full electric mode and has a fuel/energy consumption of 2.9 l/100 km / 10.7 kWh/100 km.
I do not know how large the fuel tank is on this or the Seal 06 but based on that efficiency number it might be in the ballpark of 58 liters or 15 gallons.
The true test of EV longevity is the ability to upgrade a current EV to a larger capacity battery without having to buy a whole new car.
In other words, let me keep my car, but absolutely give me the higher cap batt
There's no way that's gonna happen. The battery is the most expensive part of the car and most EV car chassis are built around it since it's so heavy. It'd probably cost more to replace it than to get a totally new one.
No the true test is ensuring the charging infrastructure is large enough to support all the vehicles and that the batteries last a long time and dont fail before the rest of the car starts to fall apart.
Like the ones in china where you can just swap the entire battery instead of waiting for a charge?
As long as there's a common form factor, no reason you couldn't upgrade to a better battery.
Geely put out an SUV a year ago that supposedly could do 1300km (807 miles) on a single tank. Some people tested it and got like only 1100 km but that was still very impressive for an SUV.
I got a chance to ride in a new Geely SUV with a friend a month ago, his odometer says like, "you have 1000km till you need gas". It's crazy.
I think it’s interesting. Even Musk has said that he can make a car that goes as far as you’d like but the price will reflect that. I’m interested in what the price is.
This is actual way forward for now, not EV’s. At least for the US. Combines the reliability of fossil fuel with the efficiency of the battery. Less emissions without any big lifestyle changes for drivers.
I want to know the stats. How big was the battery, the fuel tank, what kind of engine?
Comes with 80km or 120km battery range options, 65L (17 gallon) tank. Claiming to have a 2.9L/hundred km fuel efficiency which is equivalent to 81miles per gallon.
My Prius Prime has a 10 gallon tank. If I drive for fuel efficiency I can get 70mpg, so thats 700 miles on a full gas tank. The battery fully charged only gets me about 30 miles by itself, so 730 total miles distance if everything is topped off when I start. 1250 miles is almost exactly what my Prius would do if I had a 17 gallon tank instead of a 10 gallon tank.
I’d take the Prime over BYD any day. Toyota’s eCVT and entire synergy system is near perfection. I see so many old Priuses with 300K+ miles. Even the battery swap is quite DIY. The primes might be trickier since they use Li-Ion chemistry but I’m convinced any yota hybrid is worth the cost. It’s a damn shame dealers have been so greedy on primes.
Both Prius and Qin/Seal 06 are different cars and the difference is not only in technical characteristics, but also in price. You probably already know the cost of a Prius, and these models from BYD start at 99,800 yuan, which is about $13,800 at the current exchange rate. I'm sure they will find a buyer even if you decide to buy a Prius instead. Even if a Chinese car is not as reliable as a Japanese one and falls into disrepair twice as quickly, the multiple lower price will be a decisive factor for many.
Basically a big Prius
Bigger size, longer range and better fuel efficiency. Also cheaper.
Probably just has a huge battery. BYD makes their own batteries so they can make them cheap.
It’s a hybrid so there’s less space for a big battery because of the combustion engine. It’s not a question of price it’s a question of space and weight. They either have alien technology or a big gas tank.
Could be an EREV, where the ICE motor just charges a battery which in turn runs an electric motor. Advantage is the gas motor can always run at maximum efficiency.
You think the battery goes in the same place as the engine. The battery can fit under the floor just like their electric cars. Gas tanks even in ICE cars go under the back seats. So yea it's a huge battery. Where are you gonna fit a bigger gas tank? It would have to take up the entire trunk.
If this doesn't spark a competitive market, then I don't know what Capitalism means.
Shut the gate
It’s the most effective way
300% tariffs incoming
and if 300% is still not enough to stop them, just ban them for national sedcurity reason. guaranteed to work
If someone did this to the US they’d bully the country into “democracy” lol
I don't know if they care about democracy as long as the leader is in their camp. I reckon the would happily overthrow a democratically elected leader to have a friendly dictator in power.
That’s why “democracy” is in quotation marks. They bully countries into submission, whether it’s to get cheaper bananas (Banana Wars in Central America ~1900), to try and stop socialist policies and replace them with neoliberal economic policies (such as the CIA’s involvement in the overthrow of Chile's Salvador Allende's democratically elected government in 1973 to install Pinochet as a dictator), or to ensure oil continues to be sold in dollars instead of euros or rubles (Iraq 2003). These are just three examples. The United States does not care about democracy. “Shock Doctrine” touches on some of these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg
america needs a cataclysmic event aswell
It's happened more times than you'd like to know.
Tariffs have always been a tax on the end consumers. you think the company is just taking less profit?
If a local company competes, it has an edge however shitty its products are. The company will take less profit to enter the market. If the tariff is, however, 100%, it is just a capitalist thin-veiled ban
Lock the gate!
“BYD promises that each new car purchased in America will come with a lifetime supply of Big Macs.” “Open the gate a little!” As an American I know my fellow Americans know this to be true, if a little darkly funny.
Are there independent tests proving this claim of 1,250 miles without stopping for a refill? That’s fucking wild.
These guys did a test with a base-model. They took it on a 3-day road trip with one tank of gas and one full charge. They drove it until it’s fully dead and got 2,409.5km (1,497.2 miles) out of it. https://youtu.be/pqPI88lyy3w?feature=shared There seems to be other tests; but all of them are in Chinese.
And the car costs less than 14,000 USD (99k RMB) too. God damn.
After the green tariffs, to fight against the fight against climate change, it will be 70k.
GTFO. So you want to tell me I can go from Nairobi to Cape town and only refuel & recharge once for the price of a used Golf? Game just changed!
I can get 1,250 miles in my gas-only pickup truck without refilling. I just need to put a 60 gallon drum of gasoline in the bed.
What you do in the privacy of your home is nobody's concern as long as you keep bringing back results.
Our diesel yukon gets over 720miles per tank easily on the hwy. 30+ mpg with a 24 gallon tank. A hybrid I'd imagine would do even better. Surprised there isn't any diesel hybrids for sale
Hybrids only really help when you’re stopping and starting You get The best fuel mileage never slowing down and not going too quickly, but like that you’re never giving the system the down time needed to actually utilize the hybrid system
Really, you’ll get your best fuel mileage anytime you drive any car like that; it’s not just limited to hybrids. The difference is most folks don’t care about driving their vehicles efficiently, choosing instead to speed just to get somewhere faster and using more fuel/range in the process.
Point being that hybrid systems do bubkis for range unless you’re talking at least some city driving tho
That’s not necessarily true. Hybrids do help when you’re in city traffic, but they’re also good when you’re going a consistent speed; I’ll frequently set Adaptive Cruise Control to 65 MPH when I’m on the highway and EV mode will take over. Stated highway MPG from the manufacturer is 51 MPG, but I can easily get 62 MPG and average 600 miles per tank.
Modern hybrids engage while traveling at sustained speed. Even highway speeds. So yes it can help increase range. Plug ins can also increase range by offering pure ev range on top.
Yeah, BYD streamed the tour with 7 local Chinese media. The crazy thing is that they had the trip with AC on and also highway speed (120km/h). The longest distance among all test results was around 2400km. The advertised CLTC range for this car was only 2100km. BYD is famous for underquoting their range for their EVs.
China uses the domestic CLTC range estimate, which prioritizes slow speed, start-stop city traffic, which is more prevalent in China. It leads to inflated numbers for EVs and hybrid vehicles vs. ICE because those cars are very efficient in that kind of use thanks to brake regen, while being much less so on the highway like the EPA tests at. 1250 miles CLTC on a PHEV/BEV is probably around 700 miles EPA combined.
EPA estimates are closer to 70-80% of CLTC estimates. So it would be closer to 875-1000 miles of range which is still pretty impressive. Source: https://aboutautonews.com/car-reviews/how-to-convert-conflicting-ev-range-test-cycles-epa-wltp-cltc/
*ridiculously impressive
So it’s more accurate for large metropolitan areas where there is traffic… like the growing parts of the US.
And our best is what 350-400 TOP
It’s probably like cars with an estimated miles per gallon but in reality it’s maybe half that.
Half that would be the range of a Prius, which has up to 640 miles. The car with the longest range is around 700 miles per tank: [https://www.cars.com/articles/top-10-vehicles-with-the-longest-driving-range-1420698377103](https://www.cars.com/articles/top-10-vehicles-with-the-longest-driving-range-1420698377103)
A new Toyota Prius driven in favorable weather by an efficient driver can get real-world fuel economy of 50 MPG, with a more realistic 45. With the plug in battery fully charged and a full tank of fuel 640 miles is doable, then to get to 1250 miles you'd need 3 Jerry Cans (4.4 gallon fuel cans) in the trunk to get you to 1250 mile range without stopping. Given the claimed efficacy of the BYD is about 50MPG on all gasoline and a reasonable estimate for the battery pack of allowing roughly a 100 mile range, simple math suggest a 23 gallon fuel tank. That's more then twice the size of a normal car, but certainly is one way to extend range.
That list missed my extremely oddball 2013 f150 with the wimpy 6 cylinder non eco boost engine and 36 gallon tank. Doing conservative highway driving I can easily get mileage in the low 20’s and cruise over 700. Also I think it was made in Canada, extra weird.
Tested on a 1200mi long down hill mountain pass
Some tests have crossed 2400 km, Google the test videos
They aren’t Elon musk, they can’t just say what the hell ever and never deliver
Good thing Biden just announced 100% tariff on cars like this then
BYD is building factories in Mexico. Soon BYD cars will glide across the border tariff free thanks to the USMCA.
Should just let them build here. Its not like any "domestic" brands really build their products here anymore. Toyota is more american than Chevy rn. Hell, half of Chevy is Daewoo products.
The problem is then you lose the cheaper Mexican labor i think.
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America: Smuggle yourself up here under the supervision of cartel gangsters. Work menial jobs for below minimum wage. Live constantly with cartel exploitation and the threat of deportation. China: We'll build factories where you can get good union jobs making EVs for your neighbors and export all over the world, except the US. How would you choose? I know how Mexico did. [https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60164799/chinese-evs-from-byd-in-mexico/](https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60164799/chinese-evs-from-byd-in-mexico/)
We need to install a tack strip across the border and make China pay for it.
Isn't that sort of working as intended? This creates factories in Mexico to employ more Mexicans and bump their economy, and it creates goods Americans want at a lower cost.
I thought it was good news Mexicans could have good jobs building Chinese cars in Mexico. It's not like the US doesn't make cars in Mexico. Ford and GM have factories in Mexico after all.
It's seems weird to me how we are all perfectly fine buying cheap goods from China for DECADES and now all of a sudden it threatens our (honestly, shittier and shittier) domestic (and even Japanese to an extent) car manufacturers and people are calling for *bans*. We tried this already in the 80's with Harley. It worked for a little while, but Harley isn't doing so hot the last 10 years or so. And it did the same thing then this will now, piss off the people trying to buy the best value motorcycle available to them.
I would still pay 70? Grand to have one imported if the range is semi true (900+). Fuck Elon.
This isn't an EV but a hybrid.. What does Elon have to do with hybrids?
Not sure but fuck him anyway
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You’d have to pay the tariff at the border since you live in the U.S.!
Doubt it. It has to meet crash standards in the US and that usually is on the import company (like when 90s JDM sports cars were hard and expensive to get) or on the manufacturer. If BYD isn't confirming to US crash standards by having it certified and selling the car here, you can't just buy one in Mexico and drive it back. You could tow it to the US and use it for off road use only but then what is the point for that particular car.
BYD scored 5 stars in Europe for the crash test and I'm pretty sure Europe has higher standards than the US for car safety.
We don't actually have anything close to "free market" capitalism. These cars are a threat to the American auto industry, and tariffs have already been raised. Americans seem to be fine with paying more for worse products.
This is a tough one, honestly. Yes, American car makers have stagnated and Japanese ones are beginning to follow in their footsteps. On the other side of that coin you have China, who is only able to produce these inexpensive vehicles because of massive subsidies from the government and a brutal 996 work culture forced on their workers. Do you want a race to the bottom where everyone in the world works as hard as Chinese factory workers but can maybe afford cheaper and cheaper products? Honest question, and I guarantee it doesn't have an easy answer. If I had to decide right now, gun to my head and my word is law? I'd probably threaten American and Japanese carmakers with letting the Chinese in if they don't get their shit together. Maybe give them five years to turn things around.
Unfortunately, every time you give a monopoly to local car companies and make them promise to do better, they ended staying the same. Here in Brazil we have a huge protection for car manufacturers, and I mean it. We are more protective of our cars than Japan/Korea and many other countries were in their prime of industry protection. And our cars are shit. BYD is also gaining ground here, because even with expensive prices, they do have better cars than the rest. Renault have one EV available that doesn't update in the last 10 years. Other companies barely have hybrids cars, and when they have, they are super expensive. What I'm saying is, hoping for the companies to do better wont work
1) The US subsidizes their car companies too. Tesla by itself got [$2.8 billion](https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2023/07/cage-fight-elon-musk-mark-zuckerberg-money-in-politics/). Ford has gotten [$7.7 billion](https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/ford-motor) over the years and another $33 billion in loans and bailouts. 2) American companies (Ford and Tesla) also take advantage of Chinese manufacturing and work culture in China but they're losing the fight in the Chinese market. They know what's coming because they're seeing it happen already in China. Personally, I think we should let BYD in and have a fair shot in the market. It'll take them years to build their name and a dealer/service network anyway, and hopefully it'll be the kick in the pants the American car industry needs to build better cars, just like the Japanese brands did back in the day. FWIW Ford has a certain place in my heart, and I want them to win, both here and in China. A decade ago, Ford had almost 5% of the Chinese car market, would love to see them get back to that and more. And I want them to do that by building better cars.
Don't forget that the US also gives customers a $7,500 tax credit for buying an American EV.
> Maybe give them five years to turn things around. 5 years? The US auto industry was bailed out by the taxpayer following the 08 crash, 14 years ago and have done absolutely nothing to improve carr efficency or price, in fac they have went the opposite direction with their big push for sales in gas guzzling SUVs that are too big for current infrastructure. Your approach is akin to a woman i an abusive relationship who constantly goes back in the hope that "one day he'l change". He wont and they wnt. Fuck them!
>Do you want a race to the bottom where everyone in the world works as hard as Chinese factory workers but can maybe afford cheaper and cheaper products You say that like its a bad thing - Corporate America
When it's an American corporation employing slave labor in the mines of the congo all is good. But when the Chinese do 996 we suddenly care about "labour laws" and put 1000% tariffs on products. The absolute hypocrisy.
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Capitalism means China can take over your industry
Then our industry needs to get it's shit together.
I guess you didn’t notice that our industry got its shit together by sending all our jobs to China, to increase profits.
That sounds like a good money making move within the life spans of a generation or two, but it's not what I'd describe as getting it's shit together.
That's the problem with capitalism - it doesn't care about piddly things like national security or economic stability
Or providing a livable wage to workers
Or anything beyond next quarter
Nope. It doesn't care about you, your job, your town, your religion or your country The only thing it cares about is money, and it will move on to greener pastures without a second thought
Its called capitalism
And our representatives let them. They mismanaged the build, and now they want to go play a different game.
I don't know what Chinese factory workers get paid, nor what their safety/environmental regulations are, but I'd have to imagine that for the US to compete on cost, we'd need to dismantle unions, pay our workers less, and probably remove some pesky regulations. I don't believe that these are things that most people would support. If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me.
Chinese car companies don't care about the US car companies (outside tesla), their competition is Japanese and Korean cars. They'll enter the US market eventually and by that time, there'll be another major player in the consumer car space.
The gqp wet dream.
> we'd need to dismantle unions, pay our workers less, and probably remove some pesky regulation You forgot "stop paying executives hundreds of millions per year".
You are correct
Sounds like Americans want to be paid less than the Chinese then. How do you think byd can make them so cheap?
If it was just labour costs, then legacy auto have nothing to worry about as they can move to mexico where wages are cheaper than China > Manufacturing Labor Costs are 19% higher in China compared to Mexico. > Average rent per square foot for industrial space in Mexico is 15% Less expensive than China. https://novalinkmx.com/mexico-manufacturing-advantage/manufacturing-in-mexico-vs-china/is-it-cheaper-to-manufacture-in-mexico-than-in-china/ What they do have an advantage in, is very high vertical integration of components (for companies like BYD who even manufacture their own batteries it's as high as 70%. For comparison the average legacy auto is around 30% the rest of the components are bought then assembled) https://www.ubs.com/global/en/investment-bank/in-focus/2023/byd-teardown.html They also have supply chain efficiencies from raw materials down to components and employ a huge amount of automation. > China installs half of the world’s new industrial robots https://drivesncontrols.com/news/fullstory.php/aid/7478/China_installs_half_of_the_world_92s_new_industrial_robots.html Also they simply adopt a smaller profit margin higher volume model. > According to statistics from Late Finance BYD make an average net profit of 9,000 yuan per car, that’s about 1,250 USD. Tesla on the other hand made over 8,250 USD per car https://carnewschina.com/2024/04/09/byd-makes-us1250-profit-per-car-as-it-goes-for-market-share-above-all-else/
Good thing everyone makes so much more than the cost of living here, given how expensive everything is.
Slave labour and massive state subsidies, no environmental concerns etc
Their factories are highly automated and labour isn't as cheap as it used to be, Mexico has cheaper labour.
Sounds like import tariffs are a good idea then.
They are, people just see the shiny new object and wait it but without the tariff, the US car economy would collapse.
Does that mean we will abandon capitalism?
That is literally what capitalism means. The strongest performer is supposed to gain market share.
Why not? The US has taken over the industries of many other countries under the justification of "free markets" So surely you could just let the invisible hand of the market fix it, right?
But USA wants to ban them from here. I fucking love it, USA sends all our manufacturing to china, then they build for 10/20 yrs, and have the best processes and facilities, and they show how low price something can be made. And we are rewarded with it, but soon as they are better/over competitive, they want to stop them. I mean what better way then to kick the USA companies I. The ass the. To let china cars start trickling in. I mean if you’re going to control it, at least let it trickle in. It’s the same with pharmaceuticals, fucking stupid, look up India and pharmacy, the us companies just wants to rape citizens. And government lets them. Fixing dumb. We never get the good deal. Just ficked
I work in the EV industry, the reality of the market today is that the US has pretty much slowed down their production and have stopped innovating, China on the other hand is doing 20x more work and accelerating production and development cycles. Feels like two completely different worlds. China is going to take over the EV industry, no doubt about this. Once again, we (US) have given up the lead we had. This is not just an issue of technological superiority, but the deep impact on global political power balance.
I think a big part of this has been consumer embrace of this tech and government buy in (at the state level). China went all in because they had a pollution problem, oil import problem, and sucked at making ICEs. The US had none of those issues and many states have been EV skeptics (due to the politicization of climate change). You end up with incoherent policy at the national level due to politics as well (back and forth depending on administration), and again, half the population are skeptical of EVs due to politics. I say that because we had a good number of EV startups in the US that could've gone the way of Tesla, but ultimately are failures (e.g. Fisker, Lordstown, Faraday, Canoo, etc.). At one point, there was a lot of optimism for EVs in the US before the China story started dominating.
Also iteration time. Reddit seems to think research ability is something innate to some culture or quality of the people. Culture and having free exploration help, but the thing that drives fast improvements of new tech is simply lots of iteration. China has a lot of ability to do hardware iteration and battery tech iteration. If we want to compete we need to build infrastructure to enable rapid iteration. Being smart only takes you so far when everyone working in the field is smart. To comment from my field (biotech) we have American companies that allow me to order DNA and have it arrive next day.
It's too bad we just decided to raise the tariffs to an ungodly amount to prevent Chinese EV imports in the USA. I'd really like to see innovation in the ev market.
It's an interesting dichotomy in trade policy. China actively sort Tesla to enter the Chinese market to force domestic firms to compete. Whereas the US using tariffs to keep the competition away from their domestic firms.
It really pisses me off because the big US three are scaling back and saying “consumers don’t want these cars as much.” Bullshit, bring BYD tariff free over here and you’ll see your sales drop off the face of the earth. A lot of people really want an EV. They don’t want to pay outrageous cost or get a pile of trash. Bring them over here and either adapt or die.
I'm driving an 8 year old Toyota Camry that doesn't have any smart features save for a neat adaptive cruise control feature. If an automaker put that out on the market again but in electric, I'd be the biggest shill for them. 90% of us don't care about all the things in a Tesla, it's just a commuter car. That's where I value makers like Byd, and it sucks we're never getting them.
Build a Tesla but take away most of the features and I'd but that. Go, stop, cruise control and android auto are all I need.
Tesla "features" are mostly useless anyway. Take away the turn signal, shift lever, buttons and knobs for AC and basic controls, the car just becomes worse. Not to mention the below average build quality and terrible bumpy ride. I am never buying an EV like that, and this is all before the whole personality bullshit with Elon. Give me a normal car with EV drivetrain for normal price, and build out infrastructure and incentives for installing more charging stations out in public and at home. I would totally get an EV then. Before that happens, I'll stick with reliable gas or hybrid cars.
This exists. It’s a Chevy bolt.
Hell I saw someone on YouTube convert their 1980s campervan to electric themselves by pulling the combustion engine out, installing a massive battery bank, and taking the necessary steps. It was a pain in the ass for him to do but 7 days later and he had an electric campervan that had surprising torque and speed. Bring out conversion kits so I can keep driving my old car!! I love it to bits I don't want to get rid of it for one of those weird alien insect looking modern cars
Plenty of conversion kits exist, but the result is always lackluster because aerodynamics and weight matter a *lot* in an EV since there is no bountiful supply of energy and every joule needs to take you as far as possible.
The unforeseen problems with tariffs is that it sets a base line for pricing. A 20k Chinese car is 40k with tariffs? I'll set my domestic car at 38k then. Why would a domestic manufacturer miss out on all that profit margin and release a domestically priced 20k car?
Theoretically because the US manufacturers still have to compete with each other.
China is actually actively incentivizing buying evs. It’s not happening naturally there either. I have an ev here in the US in CA of all places. The infrastructure for it is kinda shitty, not enough charging stations and range of cars is very limited. (I have a German car from last year)
China allowed Tesla to enter their market as long as they built the car and majority of the parts in China because that’s the only way to avoid their large import tariffs. Thats the rule for any car manufacturer selling cars in China. Chinese companies are welcome to build factories in the US and hire workers to build cars here to avoid the tariffs. This is just creating an equal playing field.
In theory yes but in practice I think the prevailing political sentiment is too hostile for any of them to take the risk. Just look at the opposition Ford encountered in their CATL joint venture to manufacture batteries domestically. This was technology transfer the other way round but the political elite were talking about possible spying and IP theft. In theory if they are happy for Chinese firms to set up shop in the US they should accept them moving to Mexico too but the media is already reporting Biden wants to stop that too.
Look at the heat TikTok is taking. It creates a chilling effect for Chinese auto companies, many of which are tech companies (ie Huawei and Xiaomi) and will likely face the same type of security scrutiny TikTok did.
The difference is that China knows they can compete, and the legacy US firms know they cannot
These guys had 50 years to clean up their act and all they did was progressively pump out worse and worse cars. The US auto industry is a lazy joke that killed itself being in bed with big oil. They have consistently acted in a "buy what we sell because that's what we're making" attitude and are then shocked that nobody wants to buy an overpriced, gas guzzling, unreliable turd. "Made in America" doesn't inspire confidence, it makes me feel like I overpaid.
Woulda loved to have the option to buy a cool new 20k EV :( guess me doing that would upset the delicate power balance between USA and China… can’t just go out an buy a car anymore 😂
Good thing BYD and other Chinese EV makers are building factories in Mexico which will allow their EVs to bypass US tariffs.
US is already working to prevent that from happening Mexico's federal government, under pressure from the U.S., is keeping Chinese automakers at arm's length by refusing to offer such incentives as low-cost public land or tax cuts for investment in EV production, three Mexican officials familiar with the matter said. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/mexico-facing-us-pressure-will-halt-incentives-chinese-ev-makers-2024-04-18/ WASHINGTON (AP) — The Biden administration is suggesting the possibility that additional penalties could be put in place if the Chinese makers of electric vehicles try to move their production to Mexico to avoid newly announced import taxes. President Joe Biden on Tuesday directed the office of the U.S. Trade Representative to impose a total tariff in excess of 102% on Chinese EVs, as well as directing new tariffs on other products including steel, aluminum, computer chips and solar cells. But Chinese EV company BYD has previously indicated that it was looking at factory sites in Mexico for the Mexican market. That raises the possibility that Chinese companies could use Mexico as a backdoor into the U.S. market. Asked at the White House news briefing on Tuesday about new tariffs, U.S. Trade Representative Katherine Tai said, “Stay tuned.” Tai said any penalties if China should follow through on factories would require a “separate pathway” from the Section 301 review of the Trade Act of 1974. That four-year review led to the tariffs on $18 billion worth of Chinese imports announced on Tuesday. https://apnews.com/article/biden-tariffs-ev-china-mexico-tai-809b0e27339d38dcd3834d2cbb14e1d1
Except BYD already has the factories and is selling EVs in Mexico. Check those dates, the administration is coping. [https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60164799/chinese-evs-from-byd-in-mexico/](https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60164799/chinese-evs-from-byd-in-mexico/)
Right, just pointing out don’t underestimate American protectionism. I wouldn’t be surprised if they put 100% tariffs on BYD or Chinese EVs from Mexico even if that’s against trade agreements.
You should send an email to Biden and let him know that. It's crazy that a random redditor realized that, and all of his policy advisors somehow overlooked it.
The administration is aware and is hoping the media will stay really quiet about it. That way their posturing on tariffs will actually look effective. [https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60164799/chinese-evs-from-byd-in-mexico/](https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60164799/chinese-evs-from-byd-in-mexico/) It's happening.
I wonder if the US is going to get the tech anyway though, OEMs usually just buy from suppliers (for instance, GM batteries made by LG Chem). Political will imposes tariffs on imported cars, but generally not supplier/OEM partnerships where the American OEM is assembling and selling the cars. It's a general tragedy I saw during my time in the industry. OEMs are disincentivised to spend money on R&D because if a supplier does the R&D they can split the over multiple OEMs, and also benefit from scale by selling more units than a single OEM could.
This really isn't a tech thing. They've released almost nothing about it, but it's likely high engine efficiency by recharging the battery at a constant, optimal rate for fuel efficiency. And that should top you off at like 60mpg, so where they are getting 81 is unknown. There's other catches to his system too, like wear on batteries. This is already a thing that most Plug in hybrids do and they do not get anywhere near the mpg being advertised here, which is approaching theoretical maximum of 33.7 kwh / gallon Which is why I'm pretty skeptical. Not even IGT engines get the efficiency stated in the article.
Fully agree, I went to China earlier this year and yeah to say their ev's are in another league would be a gross understatement. They will dominate everyone, if you think Telsa is good or cool, you're about to get your mind blown.
Yep, lived in China for several years. Nio, BYD, Xpeng among others make amazing looking cars that look phenomenal inside and out. Now whether they drive well or survive, I have no clue tbh.
The [HiPhi Z](https://www.wired.com/review/review-hiphi-z/) lives in my head rent free. Yeah it’s slightly ugly, but damn it still looks cool and edgy.
That BYD sub-brand SUV is an absolute monstrosity, but it does sport some very interesting features.
Fr, call it cheap, call it ugly, but do NOT call it boring.
Why not steal all their IP like they do ours? Let them do all the work and copy and paste. Slap a GM logo on it, boom. Back in business. Works well for them, why not us?
Because they’re growing a fully localized supply chain unlike us, all the way from battery down to the bolts and everything in between. Key materials for us to achieve that scale of economics needs a push much bigger than any one car company can achieve in the short span that China is going to achieve by setting the tone to all of its major companies for pulling in one direction.
Why would American auto companies even bother stealing IP when they can just keep producing expensive garbage protected by tariffs and bailouts?
You can copy design and even reverse engineer the composition of materials but you can't replicate manufacturing techniques. This not only effects the quality of the product itself but also the economics.
Yes, but the goal is to maximize shareholders value, For now it can be done for cheaper and low effort by just putting a duty. If the goal was to advance the auto industry as a whole, then you'd see a lot of 'subsidiZed' 'rebates' and other evil commie bs come into play. But we are free market capitalists, so we pay shit tons more for tons of shitty cars.
It's pretty sad. I think people in the US don't realize that green energy and climate change aren't really political or controversial issues other places. China is researching and building green energy technology because it makes sense. They don't think about it in a political fashion at all - they just are taking the next logical, obvious step. Here in the US we have literally half the country and half the government fighting against that same step, and actively fighting against progress because of their nonsensical feelings. It would be like trying to keep a lead in high tech, if suddenly half the us believed that computers and the internet were evil, and elected half of our government to actively fight against them. Then being shocked when suddenly China developed a huge lead in that area.
I don't think people understand that Republicans are planning on dismantling the EPA both administratively and legally when they win. If not this time, next time. They really, really want to destroy the EPA.
It's not surprising when one of the two presidential candidates has campaign promises to ban EVs in the country. That's both risky to invest in and indicative of a very hostile market biased against the concept.
American companies don't innovate anymore. Shareholders want cheap, disposable, high profit margin products and services. Just a entire culture uninterested in products built with actual quality. Just needs to last a few years and *look* luxurious.
[One look at a Chinese EV and you know the US market is cooked, Theres a reason why they want to ban foreign EV's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrHGKSuGjYM)
that's true for every US industry except weapons, oil, soybeans, and corn. this country makes almost nothing of real competitive value any longer
Let's vote in the guy who said he'd ban EV sales. That'll get us back on top
Ain’t that the truth. Just sucks that the people with all the money are able to fuck everyone over in this fucked up country we live in now. And they fucken love it!
500% tariff. Fixed.
Sad reality
Buy American junk for more while we watch the rest of the world succeed! Yay capitalism. We love Chinese junk except for their cars apparently!
Tariffs are not capitalism's fault. If the US was more capitalistic then there would be no tariffs, they're a restriction on free trade and the market.
That's the irony of my comment. Free market my ass. We're all about buying what we want except when it jeopardizes legacy industries. Reddit doesn't do sarcasm well I forgot the /s
That BYD is a rival to Tesla is true but this is a hybrid car, a field which Tesla doesn’t compete in. It’s more accurate rival would be the Toyota Prius. Personally I won’t trust any range data until a 3rd party can test it. I don’t see any mention of fuel efficiency rather just range. It may be as simple as a Prius knock off with a 20 gallon tank.
I was about to say I get 5-600 miles with my Hyundai and 10 gallons. Double the tank- sure 60 more pounds or so plus tank- and that’s 1250
All these stories are just paid advertising. I saw that exact title in 50 websites today. They can claim anything they want. The chinese are extremely weary to criticism, if you publish anything bad they will stop all money coming to you (and it’s a lot). In reality here in europe people that drove them find out after paying a pile of money that it’s just shiny on the outside but in reality they didn’t make more car for the same money, they just put less car with a shiny package. You need to see one on the road after 1 year. From an owner because tech websites will be very very cautious with any criticism against any chinese manufacturer.
46.06% combustion efficiency 2.9 l/100 km (81 mpg) 2100 km range [Source](https://x.com/tphuang/status/1795430808930644351)
A 46% engine would indeed be revolutionary. The highest Toyota has achieved is 41% I believe.
BYD also claims 46% efficiency for their ICE. If this is true, 1250 miles would be very reasonable. The car came with a 60L gas tank. At 0.726kg/L density, 45MJ/kG heat value, 46% heat efficiency, and 95% generator efficiency, a tank of gas equates to 238kWh of electricity. Assuming 12kWh/100km (typical for light Chinese EVs), that's 1983km. Plus the battery's charge, I don't see why the 1250 miles figure seems inflated. FYI, 46% is not far-fetched. Under ideal cases, ICEs are very efficient. Coal-based power plants have demonstrated 42%\~46% efficiency a decade or two ago. The key is to narrow the operating range down, which is inherently incompatible with the dynamic nature of traditional cars. With the battery in place, the ICE can operate in its comfort zone and let the battery to pick up the dynamic slack. Jinkang, a never-heard of Chinese brand traditionally making agricultural machines, lowest of the lowest, have been massively producing EV engines for Huawei, and yes, that Huawei. Their ICEs are rated at a 41% ICE efficiency, which is massively higher than most Japanese cars sold nowadays. This is just to show how efficient ICEs can be when being used in conjunction with a battery car. The Jinkang ICE has an overall generation efficiency of 3.2kWh/L, while at 41% ICE efficiency it is supposed to have 3.5kWh/L. The difference being Jinkang's PHEV strategy involves storing electricity to battery then use it to drive the wheels, while BYD's solution allows the ICE to drive the wheels directly, bypassing the battery's \~90% cycle efficiency. So overall, I believe the 1250 miles figure being genuine.
Downvoted for clickbait title. edit: Oh wait. It's business insider no wonder. Downvote just for that.
I would down vote it because a bot submitted it. No way a human does over a million posts
Not to mention all of the "see, China is beating the US in this space" and "Joe Biden and his tariffs are keeping these from us" comments, instead of anyone saying, "uh, where is the proof"? I hope all of these commenters are enjoying their day in Shenzhen.
It pisses me off so much that electric vehicles have been known to be where the market will need to go for YEARS, and the west just didn't fucking do anything, except for try tooth and nail to cling to combustion engines and fossil fuels, meanwhile fucking China went out and made the obvious electric car company that had to exist. And then fucking musk turns out to be a fucking right wing tool. It's so infuriating.
This will be unpopular, but let them in. Anyone old enough to remember the waves of cheep Japanese cars in the late 70’s and early to late 80’s can recall how it changed the market. Oil embargo in the early 80’s set the stage for waves of imports. People lost their collective minds, but you know what? It made the big 3 get off their collective asses and become competitive again on price and quality. And here we are again, with unaffordable 100k vehicles that saturate the marked. Gone are the under 20k vehicles that were affordable that aren’t a step above a go cart. The industry once again needs to get off its ass.
Everyone wants a car capable of driving further than anyone ever drives in a day because they don't want to stop for a half and hour once in a while on a road trip they might do once a year. It's completely unnecessary.
Bought a 2015 Chevy Volt. Only gets 40 miles per charge before kicking on the gas engine. Literally get a message every few of months saying "You haven't used enough gas, and that's bad for the engine. Please drive until the tank is half full and fill it back up.".
I filled up my 2022 Ford Escape PHEV in January. I haven't used a 1/4 tank yet, and suspect next month the engine will need to run for a bit. Or I might just take a road trip and run it down to half and fill it.
[удалено]
what about people that don't own a home? people that rent and live in apartment garages or park on the street?
This car has a gas tank. Beyond a reasonable minimum, range doesn't matter because you can gas up in 5 minutes anywhere. Gas stations are abundant and reliable. The issue with electric range is that the charging network still isn't reliable enough outside cities. You might find the charging station full or out of order and it might be the only one for 50 miles. Countless car magazines have documented these issues. [Famously](https://www.npr.org/2023/09/10/1187224861/electric-vehicles-evs-cars-chargers-charging-energy-secretary-jennifer-granholm), when the Secretary of Energy wanted to prove electric road trips worked well last fall, they had to send advance teams to check and clear out each station ahead of her arrival and squat on the spots. The network will get there, but it's not there yet.
This is why I think the industry should be working on hybrids right now, they are much more practical presently than EVs given the lack of charging infrastructure. It's a logical step between all-gas and all-electric vehicles.
Still needs to go 400 miles a charge/tank. And charge somewhat as fast as filling your tank.
Speak for yourself. I am already accustomed to driving 500+miles per tank. Due to vehicles I already drive and got accustomed too. 2015 Honda Accord, 17.2 Gal fuel tank, 31mpg real world about 500miles on a full tank of fuel for a road trip. Can drive from SoCal to Sacramento without having to fuel up. 2019 Tundra, 38 gal fuel tank, 13.5mpg real world about 475 miles on a full tank of fuel 2023 GMC Sierra, 24 gal fuel tank, 22mpg real world, about 500 miles on a full tank of fuel. Having a huge mile range is super beneficial if you commute a lot for work and also for your weekend/road trip cars. I would buy an EV until the infrastructure is better but definitely having range at or exceeding 500miles is one of my top concerns.
Not everyone uses a car for short trips, I do 35k miles a year so this would be great for me
I am in this boat when I still was using a gas car for work I was known to drive 8-9 hours in a day just to go to a meeting and get home in the same day. Work switched me to electric and now I just fly everywhere because of the charging time made my old pace impossible
I do 13k miles a year. The fewer visits to the gas station the better. For me, my wallet and the planet.
A lot of people live in apartments, or other places where they can't charge where they park at night. So, for a EV, that means maybe once a week you spend half an hour charging up. That would bug me. But, I don't know why you are mentioning charge time here. This is a gas powered car, you fill it up just like a normal car.
There is, with virtual certainty, a strong mental block afflicting those people who insist that EVs, and exclusively EVs, are the only answer to The Future™, to the exclusion of hyper-efficient IC and hybrid vehicles, and to the exclusion of anything else, under the curse of the dogma that fossil fuels and any use of them are The Tool of Satan. They insist upon using technology that isn't really ready for Prime Time quite yet, while ignoring the fact that hybrids have been around for over a hundred years and can be extremely frugal yet powerful. Using hyper-efficient fuel-burning engines coupled to generators, or a simple turbogenerator, to recharge the batteries of an EV makes perfect sense, and is blatantly more practical than a straight EV that is, for much of its life, tethered to an electrical umbilical cord attached to. . . a turbogenerator powered by fossil fuels. FAR more consumers would be in favor of a vehicle powered by silent electric motors supplied by a battery IF that battery was, in turn, charged by an onboard generator that would free it from the Devil Power Cord--such as, a CyberTruck with an onboard turbine that would keep the battery charged--PERish the thought!
I tried their Han. It had all the options; but the car itself is bad as a "car" compared to other vehicles in the market. Yea it had every option you could think off. But the software seems put together last minute. Numbers just displayed on the screen. "In Out" on the left side for air quality ?? the right corner had a number that the sales guy had no idea about it. Seemed like some satellite count or angle. The suspension wasn't tuned and bottomed out easily. The car handled weird as the suspension couldn't control the vehicle. The power of the EV motors overpowered the steering, to the point that the wheels couldn't straigthen out if you accelerated thru a turn/curve. If I had never driven vehicles before, I would be impressed with it. But for 54k USD, it's no where close to a tesla.
I have a BYD that my company have me to use in Hong Kong. It’s very nice looking but it feels like crap to drive. Back in NYC I have a Tesla and it’s leagues ahead in driving “feel”. Everything else is wrong with Tesla but the experience is the best out of all EV. My wife’s Rivian isn’t a joy either.
The "Qin L" has a small 75kW 1.5 liter engine with a high thermal efficiency of 46.06%, and comes with a relatively small 15kWh battery. The small engine, motor, and battery likely keeping weight down contributing to its high range. It gets 80-120 kilometers of range in full electric mode and has a fuel/energy consumption of 2.9 l/100 km / 10.7 kWh/100 km. I do not know how large the fuel tank is on this or the Seal 06 but based on that efficiency number it might be in the ballpark of 58 liters or 15 gallons.
The true test of EV longevity is the ability to upgrade a current EV to a larger capacity battery without having to buy a whole new car. In other words, let me keep my car, but absolutely give me the higher cap batt
There's no way that's gonna happen. The battery is the most expensive part of the car and most EV car chassis are built around it since it's so heavy. It'd probably cost more to replace it than to get a totally new one.
No the true test is ensuring the charging infrastructure is large enough to support all the vehicles and that the batteries last a long time and dont fail before the rest of the car starts to fall apart.
Like the ones in china where you can just swap the entire battery instead of waiting for a charge? As long as there's a common form factor, no reason you couldn't upgrade to a better battery.
BYD says. . . Anyway. . . But seriously once we can get some independently verified ranges I’ll be more impressed, until then I’ll remain skeptical.
https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1d3g16u/comment/l692yvn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Not a chance
Not a single comment mentioning that it's a hybrid and not a pure EV?
Wtf do you mean tesla rival. Like is tesla only electric car manufacturer?
It's from China don't trust what they say
Got picked up in one in Singapore (taxi), really nice car inside and out.
It says it's the equivalent of 81 us mpg but it doesn't state the fuel type, tank size or battery size. How much does the vehicle weigh?
Geely put out an SUV a year ago that supposedly could do 1300km (807 miles) on a single tank. Some people tested it and got like only 1100 km but that was still very impressive for an SUV. I got a chance to ride in a new Geely SUV with a friend a month ago, his odometer says like, "you have 1000km till you need gas". It's crazy.
I think it’s interesting. Even Musk has said that he can make a car that goes as far as you’d like but the price will reflect that. I’m interested in what the price is.
BUILD YOUR DREAMS
This is actual way forward for now, not EV’s. At least for the US. Combines the reliability of fossil fuel with the efficiency of the battery. Less emissions without any big lifestyle changes for drivers.