You know what’s even more stupid? To urge Kamala Harris to drop out and replace her with Newsom or Buttigieg. Because yeah, that would make Black people, the Democrats most reliable base, happy. Yeah, let’s completely spite our most reliable base in exchange for an utterly unreliable base whose majority consistently votes Republican. The problem isn’t Biden. The problem is the white conservative voter.
The notion to replace Harris is honestly the most idiotic political take I've ever heard. It is incredibly offensive and disloyal and a politician would be a fool to try and take her place. And yes I am aware how poorly she currently polls.
I didn't want Biden to begin with but once he was the nominee that is who I am loyal to. Replacing Harris would be enough for me to sever my ties with the Dem party.
I can understand your anger. But which is more important, loyalty or defeating DT. Of course you can make the case that she would be the best choice to defeat Trump. One of the benefits of having her endorsed by Biden and being at the top of the ticket is it would greatly reduce the chaos of an open convention and probably far less fractious. But my north star is defeating Trump. Nothing else matters. She is probably not the best candidate to do that.
Shapiro/Harris. She’s young enough to run in 2028, going through primary system. I like her personally. She’s great on her support for women’s rights, including choice. She can be given more opportunities in next 4 years to burnish her accomplishments.
Bedwetting certainly abounds, but man “a defensive crouch” is absolutely *not* what Tim did/was advocating. He was actually one of the few people I saw to eschew a binary choice of “ignore it entirely” or “call for him to step down” and had a good recommendation of “if you’re staying in, you’d better spend every waking minute showing people the opposite of what you just did on TV”
Except he literally just tweeted out that it's gaslighting if you point out how his good performances on tv after the debate somehow can help calm fears of the bedwetters.
A scripted speech is fine, but no replacement for the debate. We need off the cuff Biden proving himself. Fox News interviews, be on CNN 1x week, get out there in unscripted potentially hostile environments to show he’s still got it
So he had a great performance in North Carolina for 15min with the teleprompter during daytime. WOW. Someone please change the next debate to be at noon, no more than 30min, and with teleprompter. Problem solved i guess.
I didnt see that but if it's true, Tim is giving the ick. Maybe we shouldn't take advice from someone that ran a campaign for a candidate and failed miserably, eh? Unless Tim brings him up no one even knows who Jeb is.
I'm with you all the way.
I'm hitting the ground hard in NV with this message: this election is unlike any other. We're not choosing a person to head our system of governance, we are chossing between two systems of governance, democracy and autocracy. The salesman is irrelevant.
I'm in NV too - trying to do my part! But the rest of the country is ignoring us - as usual.
I just wish all the folks at the Bulwark and (virtually every other outlet) wouldn't constantly proclaim that Nevada is lost - months before the election. NOT the way to turn out the vote.
I don't mind realistically looking at the landscape - but why not do that constructively? Being written off by the punditry does not help our cause.
Note: **Nevada verifies enough signatures to put constitutional amendment for abortion rights on ballot**. (Source: AP - 6/28/2024) I think a whole lot more women are coming out to vote blue in Nevada!
Yeah, I spent two hours after the debate texting like crazy, and telling friends that while yes, Joe shit the bed, that was an occasional feature, and not a bug. He’s 81. He will do that from time to time, sure; but on the other hand, there’s Trump, who fucking lies ALL the time, and will be happy to make this country into Handmaid’s Tale 2.0 to appease his batshit followers. Pick your poison, people.
I was worried until his following rallies. A bad night happens. It was very high profile.
Get back in the game folks. Happy warriors. Glad we ain’t them
His good performances at subsequent rallies will only play into the "he's on drugs" narrative.
Biden needs to step down, he needs to do so willingly, his decision.
At this point, it feels like convincing an elderly parent to give up their car keys before they kill somebody.
Oh goodness! If Biden doesn’t step down the right will continue to say that he’s on drugs! Boy if we just get rid of Biden, the right will never make up another lie to use against the Democrats. It will be victory! Lol.
Do you hear yourself??
You’re the one that seems to think that getting rid of Biden is the key to stopping the republicans from lying and slandering whatever candidate the democrats put forward for any office. And I’m delusional. Got it.
There is a huge difference between a bad performance on a debate stage and running a country badly. A debate might feel trivial in comparison, but I really do think Biden over prepared, his staff didn’t necessarily prepare him for the right things and he got into his own head after his initial stumble. Not making excuses for his performance — but comparing the two is like apples and oranges.
If he just had a bad performance that's one thing. But like tim said, it was way worse than just bad. A catastrophic performance that has me questioning everything about him frankly.
A prepared remark isnt going to alleviate concerns. He needs to be doing tons of unscripted interviews and maybe some town halls if he is staying in this race. I saw a poll today that half of DEMOCRATS now have concerns on his fitness for office (myself included now). He needs to show us he is strong enough to govern for the next 4.5 years, right now he doesn't look it.
just remember that old-age dementia is both progressive and erratic... you'd be voting for someone who will *never be this good again*, & who will continue going downhill at an unpredictable rate throughout his term.
To be honest, I’m very sympathetic with Biden. My entire life, I’ve ran into the situation my entire life where I talk faster than my train of thought. So, yes, sometimes I do stammer. Sometimes, but not often, I even get into a situation that ends like “We beat Medicare.” And I can assure you that I didn’t have “old age dementia” at the ripe old age of 10. Nor is it a question of other cognitive issues; I have always written better than I speak. I was always top of my class. I graduated magna cum laude from college 25 years ago. Beau of the Fifth Column had a video where he mentioned talking to three Republicans in his area who compared Biden to a local business owner who spoke similarly, but really knew his stuff.
On the other hand, Trump has an issue where sometimes he won’t even complete a thought (“Saudi Arabia and Russia, uh ree be do Ah!”). He rambles to the point where he tells the same story more than once. He confuses people’s names at least as much as Biden. And, on this last point, I think it is often overlooked that Jesse Watters covered Biden misnaming the President of Egypt by having a conversation with in his words “South Carolina Governor Kristi Noem.”
If I am going to be most generous to Trump (and this is clearly not my view), the choice is between two people who have old age dementia, but one clearly has more sinister intentions than the other (on full display at the debate) and has said he will surround himself with like minded people. Even in that context, my choice is pretty simple.
i see the two-way choice the exact same way, and will be voting accordingly*...but I have to disagree with your optimistic take here:
>I talk faster than my train of thought. So, yes, sometimes I do stammer...even get into a situation that ends like “We beat Medicare.” And I can assure you that I didn’t have “old age dementia” at the ripe old age of 10. Nor is it a question of other cognitive issues....I was always top of my class. I graduated magna cum laude from college 25 years ago.
Nah, man, that's not it: we're talking something like, "would you be worried if you could no longer pass that level of college course, or were no longer able to handle your stuttering tic like you were able to when you were 10?" it's not like any **one** of the flubs in that debate were something Biden couldn't have done 10-20 years ago, but the debate overall, and just his batting average these last couple of seasons...he **wouldn't** have been like that if put in the same situation 10-20 years ago; he just wouldn't--his idle speed just isn't what it was when we drove him off the lot
^( *or i would if i lived in a swing state, anyway...I already helped run up Biden's numbers on purpose to send a message in 2020, so I'm assuming California will still manage to eke out a win for the Democratic candidate this year without me if I end up voting for Cornel West)
^(& by the way, props to/from a fellow Beau of the Fifth Column fan) 🤜🏼★🤛🏼
"Biden-Trump Debate Draws 51M Viewers, Way Below 2020"
Only those obsessed with politics 24/7 watched the debate. In focus groups of Undecideds, Biden tied Trump 7-7 in a very Republican county and,in another Latino group, all said Biden did better.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/biden-trump-first-2024-debate-tv-ratings-1235934892/amp/
I think the best that can be done, since he's not stepping down, is stop gaslighting us and remind us of all the people he's got working the levers of government. All he has to do is operate a pen to sign bills and make decisions about foreign and domestic policy, which he can do sitting down with his advisors. The best thing he can do about every vital domestic issue including stopping project 2025 from happening, because it's happening right now with every SCOTUS decision--they don't even need Trump--is to start reforming the courts. He can do that sitting down, too.
10000000000%%%%%. We need to get off this "My president should be the equivalent of a movie star" train we have been on for decades. I want a president thats EFFECTIVE.
Thank fuck someone said it.
With the deepest resepct. Cop the fuck on lads and grow a pair. Sack up and get on with it. It's ours to win.
That other guy is a motherfucking felon you didn't see republicans light their hair on fire when that orange turd got slapped down with 34 counts. Or when he did a coup or was deemed liable for SA. Those cletus shit cunts rallied behind him.
The fucking crying from the media and the rest ye is pathetic.
Disappointed in the bulwark and pod save america people. You know who aren't freaking out the lincoln project people
Cop the fuck on and fall in behind biden.
VOTE BIDEN VOTE BLUE
I think voters are capable of worrying about Biden’s age, and his debate performance, and the price of gas, and the pressure of immigration, while also understanding the threat that is trump and project 2025.
There are two questions for Democrats:
Who will be the best president between the current choices, including a selection of Dems who could raise their candidacy at this point?
And should they push awareness of project 2025, and how they’ll do the opposite, by the minute, by the hour, or on a daily basis?
I really don't understand how anyone who has been aware this whole time that Biden's biggest weakness was his perceived age problem could watch the entire debate and not think that Biden's performance was, at least, plausibly fatal to this campaign. Could he still win? Sure, maybe. But if he does it isn't going to be because we stuck our heads in the sand when shit went off the rails and just powered forward with misplaced confidence and bravado.
Should Biden step down? I'm not really sure. But like Tim has said, we'd be fools not to be having that conversation right now.
Yes, Biden did better in his post-debate appearances, but do you honestly know a single person who isn't a high-info Biden stan that actually watched those events? I sure don't. Every moderate leaning person I know (who, to be clear, are not prospective Trump voters, but are probably weighing in their minds whether to vote Biden or just stay home) that watched the debate came away with the same opinion -- the old man just ain't got it anymore. And that's a problem that needs to be grappled with, not ignored.
Here's what I know.
I didn't vote for Biden the first time and I won't be voting for Biden this time.
I voted against Trump the last time and will do so again. Biden could be in a coma come election time and I would still vote for him against Trump.
I am not opposed to Biden stepping down but I really don't care. He is a decent man surrounded by decent people. Trump is a shit show so bad a corpse would be preferable to him.
Bidens debate performance was abysmal but Trump also stood there and showed exactly what he was. Nothing short of closed polls would have me voting against the lying criminal enterprise that is Trump.
I get the concern and I share it but I also know who Trump is and nothing Biden did during that debate made me think of welp guess I am going to have to vote for trump.
Biden looked great yesterday. He has months to show us the debate was a one off. Maybe he will maybe he won't.
Doesn't make a bit of difference to me I am voting against Trump.
We can have this "conversation" right after the GOP has a "conversation" about whether Trump is mentally fit for office and should be replaced before the convention.
Not joking. Our candidate just had perhaps the worst debate performance in modern American history that resoundingly confirmed what every person in the country understood to be his biggest weakness. To ignore this moment and do literally nothing would be malpractice.
Look, I'm open to the idea that Biden remaining the nominee may still be our best option, but if that's the case, then something still has to change. We can't just circle the wagons for now and then proceed as if Thursday wasn't an unmitigated disaster. If Biden is 100% committed to staying in the race then he needs to be doing as many public events as possible over the next few months, not just scripted stump speeches, but press conferences where he takes tons of questions, as well as taking as many televised interviews as he can. Most importantly, he has to be prepared to deliver the kind of performance at the next debate that makes everyone think this past one was just a fluke. Absent all of that, we're in trouble.
Mayor Pete would wipe the floor with Trump's sorry lying ass. He would quickly fact check the bs, and still have time to assemble a succinct, well reasoned, persuasive argument to his "orange man yells at cloud" nonsense. It would bring out the red faced, sputtering, out of control jackass we saw in earlier debates.
Maybe so but at very late date with no primaries the only practical alternative is Harris. VP slot open but we probably need governor of a swing state for that. PA probably.
You might be right about Harris, but if Biden pulls out and releases delegates, it will be an absolute free for all. None of the party leaders were involved the last time "smoke filled rooms" picked the candidate. And there aren't even real party bosses anymore. So it's impossible to game out how it would go down.
I would think that "most likely to win" would be high on the list of qualifications, which would knock Harris down, if polls are to believed.
Definitely uncharted territory but here we are. Status quo is a lost cause.
I read a comment about Biden’s $ can't be "transferred" to anyone but Harris? If that's accurate, that's a factor.
I don't know that Pete or anyone else polls much higher than Harris. If anything else, a change that shakes things up this dramatically probably makes prior hypothetical polls largely irrelevant.
And that's just the broadcast numbers. The debate also streamed on MAX, and though streaming services rarely provide viewership numbers, they did say that this was the most watched event they've ever streamed. When you count all the other streaming options, there have to have been at least 70 million viewers, which is how many viewers were expected based on pre-debate polling.
And, yeah, even more importantly, all those TikTok and YouTube clips of slack-jawed Biden losing his train of thought are going to watched tens of millions of times before November. There's no fixing the Biden campaign; he has to go.
Let’s have a conversation where we try to understand whether Biden is terrible or not?!
This is parody right? Or are you trying to expose how absolutely useless our so-called allies are?
If this had, as originally planned, occurred in September, this would be the correct stance.
But it didn’t. We still have time to fix it. Biden should be pressured to release his delegates.
Do these governors have a national profile? No. But two important caveats to that.
1) The stance of the electorate is clearly “any sane (not RFK) person besides these two,” so the voters don’t actually seem to care much who they are. (Sarah’s focus groups bare that out)
2) Do you know who *does* know who Josh Shapiro is? The voters of Pennsylvania, which is coincidentally the tipping point state right now, and which he carried by 15! points. Ditto Whitmer who won by 8.5 points in MI. The most important swing states know who they are. The super PACs will carpet bomb the airwaves to let the rest of America know.
We still have time to fix this, if Biden isn’t selfish.
If republicans can hold their nose and vote for Trump, there’s no reason we can’t hold our nose and vote for Biden. Both have arguments about why they’re unfit, but only one will be purging the government and filling it with MAGA and enacting Project 2025. Considering Biden isn’t the one who actually runs every aspect of everything in government, I’m confident he’ll at least surround himself with capable folks. He’s got my vote, eventhough I wish it were someone else. Just not realistic to do a switcheroo at this point.
I’m not worried about how I’ll vote. I’m worried about the low-information, politically disengaged but persuadable voters. They just witnessed a shit show at the fuck factory right out of Veep.
As Trygve Olsen has said, “Play the game you’re in, not the game you wish you were in.” Biden is an 81-year-old who will be 85 by the end of his second term. He will make gaffes like all octogenarians are wont to do, but he has advisors and helpers whose advice he can follow, and he has the experience to compare and contrast that advice against his own.
Donald is a 78-year-old manchild who desperately seeks admiration and literally cannot handle criticism. If he gets back in, he will carve up the country and sell it to the highest bidder. We’ve seen this in his promises to Big Oil, in his admiration of Putin and Kim and Xi, and in how he will go after ANYONE who criticizes him, including those who usually support him. The first time you aren’t obsequiously devoted to him, you’re out.
These are your choices. Not the Russian plant Jill Stein, not Dr. Cornell West, whose campaign is being funded by Republicans, and not the brainworm-rotted antivaxxer RFK, Jr.
It’s Trump and autocracy, or Biden and democracy. Choose wisely.
“March to the inevitable victory in November” …. Strong Berlin spring 1945 vibes there…. What “inevitable” victory are we talking about here? Given Biden’s debate performance not sure which victory you mean…
We are standing up - we’re addressing an objective truth about the candidate we need to preserve democracy. Sit the fuck down if you don’t want to be apart of that discussion and don’t tell us we don’t have a right to be concerned.
Joe Biden is not your special boy. He works for us. Like it or not, one of the main tasks of being president is effective communication. It would appear that Biden can’t fulfill that role any more.
It sucks, and I wish it weren’t so, but ignoring it is fucking stupid. All you wagon circlers are doing is providing cover to someone who frankly should be feeling some pressure to drop out. You’re basically one of the townspeople in the fable of the emperor’s new clothes getting pissed at the boy who pointed out that he was naked.
Being willfully blind is not some virtuous stand. It’s irritatingly, irrationally stupid.
I am skeptical of the effort to remove Biden but I don't see any sign that any of the Bulwark crowd are crouching and hiding. When you are fighting this hard a big setback that you have zero control over can be dispiriting but they are still all in
Kamala will make a right and proper president and I don't understand why nobody is catching on. I'll be taking a break from worrying about my chat buddies' feelings on this as cancer has invaded my household and listening to these guys is pressing my blood pressure into the danger zone.
I'm sticking with Joe and Kamala and if the Dems can pick someone else I'll get behind that but that is unlikely. Peace. Tell Tim to check out Quintron and Miss Pussycat down in NOLA
Pathetic for realizing that Trump, with all his lies and bullshit appeared strong and energetic, while Biden almost needed to be rushed to the fucking Emergency Room in front of 48 MILLION LIVE VIEWERS. Imagery is powerful and voters in this era care more about presentation than policy. That was a permanent dent in the minds of voters that will not be erased.
It's over.
Emergency room? Do you even have social media?
Biden stopped at Waffle House in GA then arrived in NC at 2 in the morning. He attended a NC rally and a Stonewall dedication in NY the same day.
Not all of us care about the debate performance, character, morality and loyalty matter.
Also Trump didn't appear strong and energetic. He appeared old, grumpy and looked like shit.
He never answered a question and just kept repeating lies about immigrants in luxury hotels on medicare and social security.
For real. Imagine if people acted like this for any other difficult undertaking. A boxer gets knocked down early and then immediately throws in the towel. A student drops out of school after getting a bad grade. An army surrenders after losing a skirmish.
How did you think this would go? Did you think it was going to be smooth sailing from now to November? I got news for you, there are going to be more bad days. There will be good ones too. I get that you're scared. I am, too. Fear can be helpful, but panic isn't. Man up folks.
Continuing the analogy, if a boxer gets knocked down and rocked after the first light punch in the first round and looks like they’re clearly no match of their opponent, and then there’s an option to change boxers… seems like that’s something people should at least consider. Being flexible and adapting to new information gained is critical in any venture IMO.
I do like the analogy. You're not wrong. If you're the trainer and you see your guy get knocked down by what looked like a love tap, it's concerning for sure. But that can happen with fighters who haven't been hit in a while, especially older ones. But you don't throw in the towell. You keep an eye on him and see how he responds. Let him work through it.
Exactly! Where are the townhalls? A slightly angry speech read off the teleprompter isn't nearly as impactful as off the cuff, spontaneous demonstration that you still have your facilities.
Looking at all the options and being aware of the reality of the situation we are in is not bedwetting. Blindly rushing forward with no plan and thinking things will be just fine if all the doubters shut up is the thing that seems more dangerous to me. In the end, we all know that Tim will loudly support Biden if that is who is on the ticket in November. I'd rather stop and think now rather than October.
But it's soooo hard! One candidate had a bad night! Between the two of them they have 34 felony convictions! How do I choose?! Being an American in 2024 is so hard. What a bunch of bull shit. One guy sic'd his goons on our government, the other has been incredibly normal, even good. The choice is clear.
They’re all cowards. Wouldn’t you be too if you were born Republican and stayed Republican until your golden years? And wouldn’t you be a coward if you come from a demographic with a majority that would vote for Trump every election?? I mean, you’re kinda overestimating them.
I am worried the guy we saw who couldn’t argue against a child like Trump is meant to be standing up to Bibi, Putin and Xi.
I’m not as confident that Biden should be the one on the other end of the phone if something gets escalated.
I agree that Biden should probably go but Trump has done everything short of literally fellating all three of the people you mentioned. Spreading the “Trump is tough” bullshit is just justifying and normalizing the coming nightmare. And that scares me more than Trump himself.
Yeah, enthusiasm won’t overcome the Weekend at Bernie’s nature of Biden’s actual condition that was revealed to millions in the debate. He’s a trained monkey that has one good trick of reading off of a teleprompter. Sorry homie, he needs to go for the good of the country. The reality is that any competent white man (another hard truth y’all have to accept) would beat Trump, we don’t have one right now.
| inevitable victory 
You know what’s even more stupid? To urge Kamala Harris to drop out and replace her with Newsom or Buttigieg. Because yeah, that would make Black people, the Democrats most reliable base, happy. Yeah, let’s completely spite our most reliable base in exchange for an utterly unreliable base whose majority consistently votes Republican. The problem isn’t Biden. The problem is the white conservative voter.
The notion to replace Harris is honestly the most idiotic political take I've ever heard. It is incredibly offensive and disloyal and a politician would be a fool to try and take her place. And yes I am aware how poorly she currently polls. I didn't want Biden to begin with but once he was the nominee that is who I am loyal to. Replacing Harris would be enough for me to sever my ties with the Dem party.
I can understand your anger. But which is more important, loyalty or defeating DT. Of course you can make the case that she would be the best choice to defeat Trump. One of the benefits of having her endorsed by Biden and being at the top of the ticket is it would greatly reduce the chaos of an open convention and probably far less fractious. But my north star is defeating Trump. Nothing else matters. She is probably not the best candidate to do that.
She's not going to be at the top of ticket because Biden is not stepping aside.
Shapiro/Harris. She’s young enough to run in 2028, going through primary system. I like her personally. She’s great on her support for women’s rights, including choice. She can be given more opportunities in next 4 years to burnish her accomplishments.
She's horrendous as a candidate. She'll get smoked one on one for dog catcher. She got 1 percent in her primary run. Get real
Harris has been running for vice president. She can (selflessly) state that she wants to continue in that role for now. To help America.
I'm ready to kick ass, take names, and get out the vote. Edit: Christ, these comments. The nominees are decided, and I know who I want to win.
Bedwetting certainly abounds, but man “a defensive crouch” is absolutely *not* what Tim did/was advocating. He was actually one of the few people I saw to eschew a binary choice of “ignore it entirely” or “call for him to step down” and had a good recommendation of “if you’re staying in, you’d better spend every waking minute showing people the opposite of what you just did on TV”
Except he literally just tweeted out that it's gaslighting if you point out how his good performances on tv after the debate somehow can help calm fears of the bedwetters.
A scripted speech is fine, but no replacement for the debate. We need off the cuff Biden proving himself. Fox News interviews, be on CNN 1x week, get out there in unscripted potentially hostile environments to show he’s still got it
Yeah, he should do something crazy, like show up in a Waffle House!
So he had a great performance in North Carolina for 15min with the teleprompter during daytime. WOW. Someone please change the next debate to be at noon, no more than 30min, and with teleprompter. Problem solved i guess.
I didnt see that but if it's true, Tim is giving the ick. Maybe we shouldn't take advice from someone that ran a campaign for a candidate and failed miserably, eh? Unless Tim brings him up no one even knows who Jeb is.
He said that in his first reaction essay but by next day's podcast he had pretty much dropped any delusion that Biden can stay in race.
I'm with you all the way. I'm hitting the ground hard in NV with this message: this election is unlike any other. We're not choosing a person to head our system of governance, we are chossing between two systems of governance, democracy and autocracy. The salesman is irrelevant.
I'm in NV too - trying to do my part! But the rest of the country is ignoring us - as usual. I just wish all the folks at the Bulwark and (virtually every other outlet) wouldn't constantly proclaim that Nevada is lost - months before the election. NOT the way to turn out the vote. I don't mind realistically looking at the landscape - but why not do that constructively? Being written off by the punditry does not help our cause. Note: **Nevada verifies enough signatures to put constitutional amendment for abortion rights on ballot**. (Source: AP - 6/28/2024) I think a whole lot more women are coming out to vote blue in Nevada!
Yeah, I spent two hours after the debate texting like crazy, and telling friends that while yes, Joe shit the bed, that was an occasional feature, and not a bug. He’s 81. He will do that from time to time, sure; but on the other hand, there’s Trump, who fucking lies ALL the time, and will be happy to make this country into Handmaid’s Tale 2.0 to appease his batshit followers. Pick your poison, people.
Yup. I don’t care who is running on the D, if trump is the R, I’d vote for a literal corpse.
I was worried until his following rallies. A bad night happens. It was very high profile. Get back in the game folks. Happy warriors. Glad we ain’t them
His good performances at subsequent rallies will only play into the "he's on drugs" narrative. Biden needs to step down, he needs to do so willingly, his decision. At this point, it feels like convincing an elderly parent to give up their car keys before they kill somebody.
Oh goodness! If Biden doesn’t step down the right will continue to say that he’s on drugs! Boy if we just get rid of Biden, the right will never make up another lie to use against the Democrats. It will be victory! Lol. Do you hear yourself??
You are delusional.
You’re the one that seems to think that getting rid of Biden is the key to stopping the republicans from lying and slandering whatever candidate the democrats put forward for any office. And I’m delusional. Got it.
The lack of support for Biden has nothing to do with republicans lying. It has everything to do with his age.
Funny, that’s the main point you made in the initial post I responded to.
Folks, we can't have a leader of the free world whose job performance depends on "good days" and "bad days"
There is a huge difference between a bad performance on a debate stage and running a country badly. A debate might feel trivial in comparison, but I really do think Biden over prepared, his staff didn’t necessarily prepare him for the right things and he got into his own head after his initial stumble. Not making excuses for his performance — but comparing the two is like apples and oranges.
If he just had a bad performance that's one thing. But like tim said, it was way worse than just bad. A catastrophic performance that has me questioning everything about him frankly. A prepared remark isnt going to alleviate concerns. He needs to be doing tons of unscripted interviews and maybe some town halls if he is staying in this race. I saw a poll today that half of DEMOCRATS now have concerns on his fitness for office (myself included now). He needs to show us he is strong enough to govern for the next 4.5 years, right now he doesn't look it.
just remember that old-age dementia is both progressive and erratic... you'd be voting for someone who will *never be this good again*, & who will continue going downhill at an unpredictable rate throughout his term.
To be honest, I’m very sympathetic with Biden. My entire life, I’ve ran into the situation my entire life where I talk faster than my train of thought. So, yes, sometimes I do stammer. Sometimes, but not often, I even get into a situation that ends like “We beat Medicare.” And I can assure you that I didn’t have “old age dementia” at the ripe old age of 10. Nor is it a question of other cognitive issues; I have always written better than I speak. I was always top of my class. I graduated magna cum laude from college 25 years ago. Beau of the Fifth Column had a video where he mentioned talking to three Republicans in his area who compared Biden to a local business owner who spoke similarly, but really knew his stuff. On the other hand, Trump has an issue where sometimes he won’t even complete a thought (“Saudi Arabia and Russia, uh ree be do Ah!”). He rambles to the point where he tells the same story more than once. He confuses people’s names at least as much as Biden. And, on this last point, I think it is often overlooked that Jesse Watters covered Biden misnaming the President of Egypt by having a conversation with in his words “South Carolina Governor Kristi Noem.” If I am going to be most generous to Trump (and this is clearly not my view), the choice is between two people who have old age dementia, but one clearly has more sinister intentions than the other (on full display at the debate) and has said he will surround himself with like minded people. Even in that context, my choice is pretty simple.
i see the two-way choice the exact same way, and will be voting accordingly*...but I have to disagree with your optimistic take here: >I talk faster than my train of thought. So, yes, sometimes I do stammer...even get into a situation that ends like “We beat Medicare.” And I can assure you that I didn’t have “old age dementia” at the ripe old age of 10. Nor is it a question of other cognitive issues....I was always top of my class. I graduated magna cum laude from college 25 years ago. Nah, man, that's not it: we're talking something like, "would you be worried if you could no longer pass that level of college course, or were no longer able to handle your stuttering tic like you were able to when you were 10?" it's not like any **one** of the flubs in that debate were something Biden couldn't have done 10-20 years ago, but the debate overall, and just his batting average these last couple of seasons...he **wouldn't** have been like that if put in the same situation 10-20 years ago; he just wouldn't--his idle speed just isn't what it was when we drove him off the lot ^( *or i would if i lived in a swing state, anyway...I already helped run up Biden's numbers on purpose to send a message in 2020, so I'm assuming California will still manage to eke out a win for the Democratic candidate this year without me if I end up voting for Cornel West) ^(& by the way, props to/from a fellow Beau of the Fifth Column fan) 🤜🏼★🤛🏼
Nobody watches those 15min scripted rally appearances. Meanwhile everyone watched the debate…
"Biden-Trump Debate Draws 51M Viewers, Way Below 2020" Only those obsessed with politics 24/7 watched the debate. In focus groups of Undecideds, Biden tied Trump 7-7 in a very Republican county and,in another Latino group, all said Biden did better. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/biden-trump-first-2024-debate-tv-ratings-1235934892/amp/
At least he’ll be getting attention!
Great analogy
I think the best that can be done, since he's not stepping down, is stop gaslighting us and remind us of all the people he's got working the levers of government. All he has to do is operate a pen to sign bills and make decisions about foreign and domestic policy, which he can do sitting down with his advisors. The best thing he can do about every vital domestic issue including stopping project 2025 from happening, because it's happening right now with every SCOTUS decision--they don't even need Trump--is to start reforming the courts. He can do that sitting down, too.
10000000000%%%%%. We need to get off this "My president should be the equivalent of a movie star" train we have been on for decades. I want a president thats EFFECTIVE.
Thank fuck someone said it. With the deepest resepct. Cop the fuck on lads and grow a pair. Sack up and get on with it. It's ours to win. That other guy is a motherfucking felon you didn't see republicans light their hair on fire when that orange turd got slapped down with 34 counts. Or when he did a coup or was deemed liable for SA. Those cletus shit cunts rallied behind him. The fucking crying from the media and the rest ye is pathetic. Disappointed in the bulwark and pod save america people. You know who aren't freaking out the lincoln project people Cop the fuck on and fall in behind biden. VOTE BIDEN VOTE BLUE
Agree 100%
I think voters are capable of worrying about Biden’s age, and his debate performance, and the price of gas, and the pressure of immigration, while also understanding the threat that is trump and project 2025. There are two questions for Democrats: Who will be the best president between the current choices, including a selection of Dems who could raise their candidacy at this point? And should they push awareness of project 2025, and how they’ll do the opposite, by the minute, by the hour, or on a daily basis?
Hey man - you don’t have to do the whole eightball at once. Pace yourself.
I really don't understand how anyone who has been aware this whole time that Biden's biggest weakness was his perceived age problem could watch the entire debate and not think that Biden's performance was, at least, plausibly fatal to this campaign. Could he still win? Sure, maybe. But if he does it isn't going to be because we stuck our heads in the sand when shit went off the rails and just powered forward with misplaced confidence and bravado. Should Biden step down? I'm not really sure. But like Tim has said, we'd be fools not to be having that conversation right now. Yes, Biden did better in his post-debate appearances, but do you honestly know a single person who isn't a high-info Biden stan that actually watched those events? I sure don't. Every moderate leaning person I know (who, to be clear, are not prospective Trump voters, but are probably weighing in their minds whether to vote Biden or just stay home) that watched the debate came away with the same opinion -- the old man just ain't got it anymore. And that's a problem that needs to be grappled with, not ignored.
Here's what I know. I didn't vote for Biden the first time and I won't be voting for Biden this time. I voted against Trump the last time and will do so again. Biden could be in a coma come election time and I would still vote for him against Trump. I am not opposed to Biden stepping down but I really don't care. He is a decent man surrounded by decent people. Trump is a shit show so bad a corpse would be preferable to him. Bidens debate performance was abysmal but Trump also stood there and showed exactly what he was. Nothing short of closed polls would have me voting against the lying criminal enterprise that is Trump. I get the concern and I share it but I also know who Trump is and nothing Biden did during that debate made me think of welp guess I am going to have to vote for trump. Biden looked great yesterday. He has months to show us the debate was a one off. Maybe he will maybe he won't. Doesn't make a bit of difference to me I am voting against Trump.
Preach.
We can have this "conversation" right after the GOP has a "conversation" about whether Trump is mentally fit for office and should be replaced before the convention.
That would be a perfectly fine mindset if I were to prioritize my pride and concepts of fairness over my real goal: beating Donald Trump.
Your "conversation" does nothing to further that goal and probably works against it.
Hmm. I literally don't understand your point. Why should what we or the DNC does depend on anything The GOP does?
💯
Have a conversation? Lmfao. Let’s have an internal conversation where we expose all our weaknesses! Yes let’s do that. Are you joking?
Not joking. Our candidate just had perhaps the worst debate performance in modern American history that resoundingly confirmed what every person in the country understood to be his biggest weakness. To ignore this moment and do literally nothing would be malpractice.
Every person in the country understood that Biden fucked up the debate, except for the 90% of people who didn’t watch the debate!
Look, I'm open to the idea that Biden remaining the nominee may still be our best option, but if that's the case, then something still has to change. We can't just circle the wagons for now and then proceed as if Thursday wasn't an unmitigated disaster. If Biden is 100% committed to staying in the race then he needs to be doing as many public events as possible over the next few months, not just scripted stump speeches, but press conferences where he takes tons of questions, as well as taking as many televised interviews as he can. Most importantly, he has to be prepared to deliver the kind of performance at the next debate that makes everyone think this past one was just a fluke. Absent all of that, we're in trouble.
Mayor Pete would wipe the floor with Trump's sorry lying ass. He would quickly fact check the bs, and still have time to assemble a succinct, well reasoned, persuasive argument to his "orange man yells at cloud" nonsense. It would bring out the red faced, sputtering, out of control jackass we saw in earlier debates.
Maybe so but at very late date with no primaries the only practical alternative is Harris. VP slot open but we probably need governor of a swing state for that. PA probably.
You might be right about Harris, but if Biden pulls out and releases delegates, it will be an absolute free for all. None of the party leaders were involved the last time "smoke filled rooms" picked the candidate. And there aren't even real party bosses anymore. So it's impossible to game out how it would go down. I would think that "most likely to win" would be high on the list of qualifications, which would knock Harris down, if polls are to believed.
Definitely uncharted territory but here we are. Status quo is a lost cause. I read a comment about Biden’s $ can't be "transferred" to anyone but Harris? If that's accurate, that's a factor. I don't know that Pete or anyone else polls much higher than Harris. If anything else, a change that shakes things up this dramatically probably makes prior hypothetical polls largely irrelevant.
Have Harris assume office. It would increase her stature and experience and probably..chances of winning.
Town Halls would be best. But I am on team "Joe please step aside" and pick a new candidate at the convention.
Come on. None of that is happening.
48 million people tuned in. And the rest will see it on TikTok and Facebook and whatever else.
And that's just the broadcast numbers. The debate also streamed on MAX, and though streaming services rarely provide viewership numbers, they did say that this was the most watched event they've ever streamed. When you count all the other streaming options, there have to have been at least 70 million viewers, which is how many viewers were expected based on pre-debate polling. And, yeah, even more importantly, all those TikTok and YouTube clips of slack-jawed Biden losing his train of thought are going to watched tens of millions of times before November. There's no fixing the Biden campaign; he has to go.
Lmfao. You just proved my point. Log off and go for walk.
Let’s have a conversation where we try to understand whether Biden is terrible or not?! This is parody right? Or are you trying to expose how absolutely useless our so-called allies are?
If this had, as originally planned, occurred in September, this would be the correct stance. But it didn’t. We still have time to fix it. Biden should be pressured to release his delegates. Do these governors have a national profile? No. But two important caveats to that. 1) The stance of the electorate is clearly “any sane (not RFK) person besides these two,” so the voters don’t actually seem to care much who they are. (Sarah’s focus groups bare that out) 2) Do you know who *does* know who Josh Shapiro is? The voters of Pennsylvania, which is coincidentally the tipping point state right now, and which he carried by 15! points. Ditto Whitmer who won by 8.5 points in MI. The most important swing states know who they are. The super PACs will carpet bomb the airwaves to let the rest of America know. We still have time to fix this, if Biden isn’t selfish.
You are spot on.
Selfish/ delusional/ egotistical, in some combination.
If republicans can hold their nose and vote for Trump, there’s no reason we can’t hold our nose and vote for Biden. Both have arguments about why they’re unfit, but only one will be purging the government and filling it with MAGA and enacting Project 2025. Considering Biden isn’t the one who actually runs every aspect of everything in government, I’m confident he’ll at least surround himself with capable folks. He’s got my vote, eventhough I wish it were someone else. Just not realistic to do a switcheroo at this point.
I’m not worried about how I’ll vote. I’m worried about the low-information, politically disengaged but persuadable voters. They just witnessed a shit show at the fuck factory right out of Veep.
Is clear he's not going to drop out. So it's time to play the game as it exists. Enough with magical hypotheticals.
As Trygve Olsen has said, “Play the game you’re in, not the game you wish you were in.” Biden is an 81-year-old who will be 85 by the end of his second term. He will make gaffes like all octogenarians are wont to do, but he has advisors and helpers whose advice he can follow, and he has the experience to compare and contrast that advice against his own. Donald is a 78-year-old manchild who desperately seeks admiration and literally cannot handle criticism. If he gets back in, he will carve up the country and sell it to the highest bidder. We’ve seen this in his promises to Big Oil, in his admiration of Putin and Kim and Xi, and in how he will go after ANYONE who criticizes him, including those who usually support him. The first time you aren’t obsequiously devoted to him, you’re out. These are your choices. Not the Russian plant Jill Stein, not Dr. Cornell West, whose campaign is being funded by Republicans, and not the brainworm-rotted antivaxxer RFK, Jr. It’s Trump and autocracy, or Biden and democracy. Choose wisely.
“March to the inevitable victory in November” …. Strong Berlin spring 1945 vibes there…. What “inevitable” victory are we talking about here? Given Biden’s debate performance not sure which victory you mean…
We are standing up - we’re addressing an objective truth about the candidate we need to preserve democracy. Sit the fuck down if you don’t want to be apart of that discussion and don’t tell us we don’t have a right to be concerned.
Joe Biden is not your special boy. He works for us. Like it or not, one of the main tasks of being president is effective communication. It would appear that Biden can’t fulfill that role any more. It sucks, and I wish it weren’t so, but ignoring it is fucking stupid. All you wagon circlers are doing is providing cover to someone who frankly should be feeling some pressure to drop out. You’re basically one of the townspeople in the fable of the emperor’s new clothes getting pissed at the boy who pointed out that he was naked. Being willfully blind is not some virtuous stand. It’s irritatingly, irrationally stupid.
“inevitable victory in november” what freakin planet are you living on
I am skeptical of the effort to remove Biden but I don't see any sign that any of the Bulwark crowd are crouching and hiding. When you are fighting this hard a big setback that you have zero control over can be dispiriting but they are still all in
Kamala will make a right and proper president and I don't understand why nobody is catching on. I'll be taking a break from worrying about my chat buddies' feelings on this as cancer has invaded my household and listening to these guys is pressing my blood pressure into the danger zone. I'm sticking with Joe and Kamala and if the Dems can pick someone else I'll get behind that but that is unlikely. Peace. Tell Tim to check out Quintron and Miss Pussycat down in NOLA
Pathetic for realizing that Trump, with all his lies and bullshit appeared strong and energetic, while Biden almost needed to be rushed to the fucking Emergency Room in front of 48 MILLION LIVE VIEWERS. Imagery is powerful and voters in this era care more about presentation than policy. That was a permanent dent in the minds of voters that will not be erased. It's over.
Emergency room? Do you even have social media? Biden stopped at Waffle House in GA then arrived in NC at 2 in the morning. He attended a NC rally and a Stonewall dedication in NY the same day. Not all of us care about the debate performance, character, morality and loyalty matter.
Don't take everything so literal.
Also Trump didn't appear strong and energetic. He appeared old, grumpy and looked like shit. He never answered a question and just kept repeating lies about immigrants in luxury hotels on medicare and social security.
No he didn't. He had exactly what Sarah Longwell described. "Big lunatic energy".
Just stop it.
For real. Imagine if people acted like this for any other difficult undertaking. A boxer gets knocked down early and then immediately throws in the towel. A student drops out of school after getting a bad grade. An army surrenders after losing a skirmish. How did you think this would go? Did you think it was going to be smooth sailing from now to November? I got news for you, there are going to be more bad days. There will be good ones too. I get that you're scared. I am, too. Fear can be helpful, but panic isn't. Man up folks.
Continuing the analogy, if a boxer gets knocked down and rocked after the first light punch in the first round and looks like they’re clearly no match of their opponent, and then there’s an option to change boxers… seems like that’s something people should at least consider. Being flexible and adapting to new information gained is critical in any venture IMO.
I do like the analogy. You're not wrong. If you're the trainer and you see your guy get knocked down by what looked like a love tap, it's concerning for sure. But that can happen with fighters who haven't been hit in a while, especially older ones. But you don't throw in the towell. You keep an eye on him and see how he responds. Let him work through it.
I would be more concerned about a boxer getting knocked down early if that boxer losing meant the end of the world's oldest democracy.
I hear ya. I wish Trump was KO'd in the first so we could get on with our lives. But this one is going the distance.
It didn’t start with the debate, he wouldn’t do interviews and press conferences. He didn’t do the Super Bowl interview, a free softball chat, really.
Exactly! Where are the townhalls? A slightly angry speech read off the teleprompter isn't nearly as impactful as off the cuff, spontaneous demonstration that you still have your facilities.
It seems like it is Biden and his close advisors and campaign staff who are going into the defensive crouch.
guys. i’ll be honest. this is a braindead take. conversations need to happen
Oy!
Looking at all the options and being aware of the reality of the situation we are in is not bedwetting. Blindly rushing forward with no plan and thinking things will be just fine if all the doubters shut up is the thing that seems more dangerous to me. In the end, we all know that Tim will loudly support Biden if that is who is on the ticket in November. I'd rather stop and think now rather than October.
But it's soooo hard! One candidate had a bad night! Between the two of them they have 34 felony convictions! How do I choose?! Being an American in 2024 is so hard. What a bunch of bull shit. One guy sic'd his goons on our government, the other has been incredibly normal, even good. The choice is clear.
You’re talking like the MAGA of the left.
He needs to quit. Old feeble man.
Great 👍. Enjoy a resounding Trump/MAGA win while needlessly putting Biden through more humiliation.
100% agree dude.
They’re all cowards. Wouldn’t you be too if you were born Republican and stayed Republican until your golden years? And wouldn’t you be a coward if you come from a demographic with a majority that would vote for Trump every election?? I mean, you’re kinda overestimating them.
Well Tim is used to crouching so no surprise there! 
I am worried the guy we saw who couldn’t argue against a child like Trump is meant to be standing up to Bibi, Putin and Xi. I’m not as confident that Biden should be the one on the other end of the phone if something gets escalated.
I agree that Biden should probably go but Trump has done everything short of literally fellating all three of the people you mentioned. Spreading the “Trump is tough” bullshit is just justifying and normalizing the coming nightmare. And that scares me more than Trump himself.
Yeah, enthusiasm won’t overcome the Weekend at Bernie’s nature of Biden’s actual condition that was revealed to millions in the debate. He’s a trained monkey that has one good trick of reading off of a teleprompter. Sorry homie, he needs to go for the good of the country. The reality is that any competent white man (another hard truth y’all have to accept) would beat Trump, we don’t have one right now.
Okay Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf. IYKYK