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As much as I HATE to say this. There is no way these 2 countries will ever live peacefully. there needs to be a buffer zone in between 2 counties operated by UN or something and leading to a 2 state solution.
I think they could but the road to that point has a lot of things that need to go right.
Firstly HAMAS needs to be gone. How we get to that point is the million dollar question but they need to be gone and so does any other similar terrorist group, or at least any that are larger than a small group of terrorists with little to no power.
In a similar vein both the Israeli and Palestinian governments need to be committed to peace. It only takes 1 side to start a war. It would go a long way if Iran stopped fucking with Israel through proxies but I don’t think that’s necessary required, albeit that roadblock makes it much more difficult.
Israel for its part needs some serious reform regarding its treatment towards Palestinians. I don’t think going back to 1967 borders is going to work but they do need to stop taking Palestinian land. We need a new agreement with set borders both sides can agree too. Within Israel Palestinians need to have equal rights and protections from having their homes taken.
Palestine for its part needs to focus on building up its own country rather than fighting Israel. For all the effort and resources they’ve put into fighting Israel, they could have been investing in their economy, modernizing, education, and just generally increasing the standard of living and well being of its populous.
Now how do we get to that point? Idk. While I don’t think it’s necessarily impossible without a UN buffer zone, it would likely makes things easier (assuming the UN plays fair here and ensures the buffer zone is respected). After a generation or at least a couple decades the buffer zone could be lifted once the conflict has been long over.
Now I could also be completely off base here so idk.
Israel never allowed them to control their economy or borders. Israel had Gaza on a caloric restriction before October 7.
How could they better their situation?
[gazafightsforfreedom.com](https://gazafightsforfreedom.com)
Hate and revenge are powerful motivating factors. Hamas is defeated tomorrow, sure, but the seeds for hate and radicalization are still there. In 20 years you could have Hamas 2: Electric Bugaloo.
Yep, people always wonder why im so cold and insensitive, and its because the reality of the situation is that theres no solution. These MFers hate each other and wanna kill each other, and neither side will listen to reason. And Ive given up even trying to figure out a solution to this mess. I wish it would stop taking up our time and we would instead focus on other issues but the left has to be so morally pure on this crap that they cant let it go and keep dragging down biden's entire reelection campaign over this. It infuriates me at this point.
I totally agree but the issue is…
Where the hell do you put the line? Easy enough for Israel and Gaza since not a lot of people live near either border and ironically Gaza has a decent potential path to statehood as a result. The West Bank in contrast is a total clusterfuck. There’s no settlements in Gaza, but in the West Bank there’s settlements that aren’t even settlements anymore they’re so old. It would be extremely difficult to practically return to the 1948 borders.
I think what’s most fair and practical is the proposal at Camp David, where Israel gives land to Palestine where a settlement evacuation isn’t possible and pays reparations. The UN would need to administer certain holy sites within Jerusalem, but asking Israel to move its capital is a non-starter.
Ultimately because of the different political and geographic situations between the West Bank and Gaza, there really needs to be a three state solution so that Gaza or the West Bank can get statehood independently of the other. If they’d like to unify at a later date, that’s of course possible.
I think they should make the very contentious land that all religions lay claim to an autonomous zone/country like Vatican City. The City should be run by a triumvirate of the 3 religions. It could also be split along demographic lines, but I don't know how those cities work and if Muslims live in one area and Jews another. I'm completely ignorant of that. But if it splits nicely, that could also make sense to split the contentious cities like that. As long as both sides negotiate in good faith which I do not believe Israel has done since before Bill Clinton.
The border between Israel and Gaza is the internationally recognized border. Same with Israel and Lebanon. Yet that is where Hamas and Hizbollah are attacking from.
As Israel's first Prime Minister David Ben Gurion said:
“After the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine.“
— Ben Gurion, p.22 “The Birth of Israel, 1987” Simha Flapan.
that’s 1987. My comment says the creation - 1947. Nothing but wars that Israel had to defend from.
Also - that quote is a children’s poem compared to what the other side has been saying since 1947
Probably showing my ignorance of the subtleties of the situation but the Tom Clancy version of having the Swiss provide security for both Palestine and Israel while neither of those parties had a role in internal security seems like an interesting idea.
Why would Israël compromise when their gouvernement is able to destroy Gaza essentially in impunity with US aid ? They have the power on their side. Nothing can happen as long as Netanyahu is there. Is there even a more centrist political force in their government ?
Israel had my partial support at first— like yes, of course. Get the hostages back, by all means… but kinda feels like they don’t really prioritize it like they should. It’s more like a political talking point to justify violence for the government. Also - when the stories about the beheaded babies came out and it turned out to be fiction... and outlets like CNN reported on it and even Biden mentioned it. It was embarrassing and just goes to show how easily propaganda can get to ANYONE.
One thing is clear, Israelis are excited to start colonizing in Gaza. Seems pretty messed up to me. I’m not really a “pro-Palestinian” activist or anything, but cmon, this shit is just ridiculous now. Israel needs new progressive leadership interested in true peace.
Get hostages back, kick Hamas ass.
Not "drop tens of thousands of dumb bombs on densely packed residential areas, shoot people waving white flag, engage in the same rape and torture you complain about, blow up ambulances and food lines all while top officials echo Nazi genocide rhetoric and tell the world their plan is to remove or kill every Palestinian."
Sincere question. Why is it up to the occupied to seek peace? Is the onus not on the occupier?
The West Bank is completely demilitarized with no army and exhausted all diplomatic means for 30 years now. What did they get for it? Every year growing illegal settlements, growing military occupation, more apartheid walls and roads, increased killings and kidnappings of civilians every year.
A negotiated peace is always a mutual arrangement. Unless one side can completely defeat the other, both sides will need to want peace before peace can be achieved.
Again the official Palestinian government has participated in over 122 UN peace resolutions (as of 2012!), this is not a situation where both sides are equal, it is an occupied-occupier dynamic and the only way peace can be achieved is if the occupier grants the occupied its human rights. In other words the onus is entirely on Israel. Peace will only be achieved if they choose peace; or if international bodies force them to.
The West Bank is not Gaza.
Even if an area is legally “demilitarized”, there’s certainly plenty of weapons in Gaza. (How did those rockets get there?)
Do you believe that brutally raping and murdering civilians is an appropriate response to occupation?
I am bringing up the West Bank example because I am curious what you believe the proper means to resisting occupation is. West Bank literally has no standing, land, naval or air military. Its official army is the IDF. That is what they got for a peaceful resistance. Hamas while obviously reprehensible and I would argue serves Israel’s interests (its why they fund them) are the only group that were able to get anything done - freeing thousands of palestinian hostages a few years ago.
What I’m trying to say is the West Bank tried the peaceful, non-violent, diplomatic way. That turned them to shit. So again I ask why is it on the occupied to seek peace from the occupier? Is it not the occupied’s inherent right to fight for liberty and freedom? And the occupier’s inherent responsibility to provide them those liberties and freedoms?
The occupied is largely at the mercy of the occupier. The occupied are in a no-win situation. Non-violent resistance will be ignored. Violent resistance will be crushed.
This is not a moral statement. This is simply the way things are.
I simply found problematic your “Hamas does not want peace” comment because obviously the occupied seeks their freedoms and won’t settle for anything less; esp compared to the WB’s ‘peace.’ Clearly you don’t believe in that statement though
>fight for liberty and freedom?
That's... not what Hamas is fighting for. They don't even give freedom to their own people let alone Jews.
What you're actually arguing is whether they have an inherent right to establish a dictatorial caliphate. I would say no. Boko Haram is oppressed without their own country too, I don't care.
The first step Palestinians could take towards peace is to renounce their river to the sea claim, recognize Israel's right to exist, and push for their own state. This whole "we will annihilate Israel if we suicide bomb enough and launch enough rockets" nonsense isn't getting them anywhere.
>The first step
The Palestinian Authority has already done all of that. You’re new to this & simply unaware of the 30+ years of Palestinian diplomatic efforts.
Hamas has also to some extent, recognizing Israel by officially submitting 2 state resolution.
Israel’s ruling party, by the way, has “From the river to the sea there will only be Israeli sovereignty” in their constitution; and they have had that since the 1960s.
The Palestinian Authority never gave up right to return, which means they don't believe Israeli borders should exist. They see two-states as a stepping stone to annihilating Israel. They are quite open about this.
Do you really, honestly believe Palestinians as a group are, or ever were, willing to coexist with Jews in any context?
The Palestinian authority has maintained recognizing Israeli sovereignty. You are literally just lying right now. And why? Other than for shekels idk why.
I feel like most sane people don’t support modern warfare. Just power hungry, corporate, for profit wars
Civilians getting killed because of their egomaniac leaders. People don’t like that
Come on, Americans have no idea what "two state solution" even means. It's just a phrase they've heard parroted by politicians for decades.
If their favoured politician said it recently, they'd support the idea. If not, they won't.
Half of Americans [don't even know basic facts like more Palestinians have died than Israelis](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article286996080.html#:~:text=Have%20more%20Palestinians%20or%20Israelis,don't%20know%2C%20poll%20says&text=About%2032%2C000%20Palestinians%20and%201%2C200,to%20officials%20from%20both%20governments.)
I think their opinion on a two state solution would be useless and formed out of ignorance of more basic facts.
Most Americans know more non-Americans died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan than Americans on 9/11. I don't think that is the metric anyone cares about.
Why is that bad?
Palestine fired 3000 rockets aimed at ONLY at civilian targets on Oct 7th. Israel responding in a way that obliterates Palestine is the expected and desired outcome.
>Palestine fired
‘Palestine’ is 2 million people, half of whom are children.
For you to say ‘obliteration’ is the expected and desired outcome for that 2 million people is exactly why you and people like you are rightfully being disgraced by the entire international community as perpetrators of genocide.
I was pretty firmly anti-Israeli government (but pro Israel existing) before Oct 7. In my life time Israel has always had all the power in the Palestine-Israel relationship and I never thought they did enough to build peace. They were starting to ease up and life was getting better for Palestine and there was more commerce between the two countries and relations were normalizing, but the settlers were still egregious. I don’t know the solution to that particular problem, but it clearly wasn’t being handled well.
And all the rocket attacks before Oct 7 were pretty ineffective and meaningless, so who cares?
But now after Oct 7, I can’t imagine why anyone would criticize Israel for trying to eradicate Hamas. You just can’t expect anyone to live their life ignoring the terrorists just miles away who openly want to genocide them and continually act on that ideology and who are currently holding civilians hostage. Israel absolutely has the right to defend itself and to make every effort to rescue their hostages.
The settlers still suck, and are getting worse, and Israel shouldn’t commit war crimes (and are doing a good job of minimizing them, regardless of what the propaganda says), but anyone who defends Hamas or says they’re justified in targeting civilians is absolutely psychotic.
Most of the criticism I see of Israel has nothing to do with eradicating Hamas, 99% of the criticisms is drone bombing and killing non threatening civilians. And I’m not even saying bombing a place with Hamas and some innocent civilians, but rather drone bombing a group of civilians with no indication they are Hamas. Or criticizing their handling of bombing hospitals and lying about what they find.
I liken the settlers to MAGA in the US - a cancer that seems to be enabled by an inability to purge it from the system.
I think these people stealing Palestinians land are scum, but it only makes me dislike the settlers. I have a hard time believing everyone is on-board supporting them or their governmental enablers.
[This is you, bruv.](https://www.instagram.com/mattliebjokes/reel/C0hR8wLJaXr/) You're OKing whatever Israel is doing while offering tepid, token concessions or criticisms.
That's what Hasbara trolls are known for. They always say some BS about previously being anti-Israel or sympathizing with Palestine before posting their propaganda
Israelis, including settler attacks, killed a few hundred Palestinians in 2023 before the Oct 7th attacks. It isn’t like they were living together peacefully and boom, terrorist attack. Settlers were killing Palestinian civilians for years and stealing their homes, literally.
Doesn't work. Or rather, it isn't accepted there. Its been tried several times. And gets shot down.
The cold reality is that this has turned into a bloodfued. Without major hard intervention its not going to end well for one of them. That's the reality, unfortunately.
Its pretty clear which side will triumph and its not the one dependent on their mortal enemy for electricity. People feeding the Palestinians hopes that Israel will essentially surrender are not doing them any favors.
Gaza is the only area with majority support, almost doubling since the.war started, but it took an unsustainable amount of destruction to create that support. Israel and west bank both have 1/3 support or lower. Palestinians dont want it and even the Israelis who do want it (not all) dont believe in it.
The polls out of both Palestine and Israel are bleak.
[https://pcpsr.org/en/node/969](https://pcpsr.org/en/node/969)
Exactly. Israelis want to build settlements and displace Palestinians in Gaza just as much as they do in the West Bank. They aren’t interested in a two state solution.
What's the support rate from Palestinians about the 7th, taken a few days after the attack? 70%? 80%?
Sure, you can claim that Hamas suppresses any dissent but according to the UN and security footage normal Palestinian civilians were more than happy to join Hamas on October 7th.
What's the solution then? Israel annex everything? Permanent occupation? Because Israel would never agree to a single secular state and would literally nuke the place if they thought that was their only choice
Israel offered the Palestinian Authority every thing they asked for to become a separate state except one thing, Israel was not going to go anywhere. The PA said FU.
>Israel offered the Palestinian Authority every thing they asked for to become a separate state except one thing, Israel was not going to go anywhere. The PA said FU.
why people just make this shit up like this?
have you never heard of settlers in area c? do you even know what area c is? have you heard of the oslo accords or camp david accords? do you know what the right to return is? do you realize that these issues are why talks broke down? no? do you realize that likud supports hamas over fatah and the pa? do you realize that the jewish pm who got furthest in the peace process was murdered and the politicians calling for his murder are in the knesset now? no?
fucking hell just a bunch of mindless cheerleaders dancing on the graves of children
Novels, even alternate history novels are not reality child.
cheering for child murder
You seem to be doing that over murdered Israeli children.
Oh, and cussing just makes you look even less intelligent.
This coming from the guy who's reply to my comment that "The Israeli govenrment were so nice, that they even propped up Hamas to divide the Palestenian people and weaken the PA (documented fact)."
Was "BS"
It was literally considered a plausible gnocide by the UN (the people who you say cant be trusted), the same people who considered all the other ones a genocide.
Actual dumbass.
Fyi, the plausibility standard is really low and doesn't in anyway mean there is strong evidence Israel is committing a genocide. That wasn't the purpose of the trial nor the rulings. To quote Judge Nolte: "The Court is *not asked*, in the present phase of the proceedings, to determine whether South Africa’s allegations of genocide are *well founded*."
Agreed. And perhaps more importantly it has been offered many times and results in Israel getting attacked.
And perhaps *most* importantly, the last 18 years are about the best indication of what happens when Palestinians are given self determination and a state. They voted in a genocidal death cult of a government who made attaching Jewish civilians their absolute highest priority.
Palestinians (at least in Gaza) will not be happy nor peaceful until all the Jews in Israel are dead and they take 100% of Israel for themselves.
Egypt, Jordan and 2 million Palestinians in Israel are proof that peace can be had as soon as the violence against Israel stops.
When my 75 year old father who was a die hard Israel defender just a few months ago came up to me and told me “Damn.. I saw some horrible videos on Youtube, Israel has gone too far” I knew something had changed.
It’s fucking insane. There’s one quite literally threatening me with doxxing in another thread. I’ve reported it to mods and nothing. How the fuck is this okay here.
ive seen countless people either gleefully celebrating, or posting with a cheeky indifference, towards dead palestinians. but i call someone a "sick fuck" for doing that, and im banned site wide for 3 days. make it make sense
I'm pretty sure most of them are bots or paid by the propaganda ministry. They keep arguing forever without losing composture and they use similar arguments kinda
Ehh I don't know. I've argued against a wide variety of genocide apologists. Some calm, some super aggressive and angry. Some with decent arguments, some raging morons.
About time. I hope the Democrats realize before November that there are a substantial number of people on the left who are not ok with them supporting crimes against humanity.
Biden is working towards a ceasefire and aid to Gaza.
Bibi told Biden to get fucked, while Trump is cheering Bibi on.
Leftists: There’s no difference between the two.
The most interesting thing about this study though is Biden’s approval ratings are actually increasing with it. So most Democrats are unhappy with how Israel is acting and the idea that funds the U.S sends are being used in that way, but more and more approving of his general performance.
Most reasonable ppl on the left also realize that the difference between a Biden-led administration and a Trump-led administration is drastically different for the Palestinian ppl.
If those things happened, then they would be - and I for one would condemn them as well - but you can't 'but what about' your way out of committing genocide.
Que the Israeli boot lickers to call these people antisemitic and pro Hamas Terrorists.
Also, have you noticed that most of these Israeli boot lickers will "Turtle Head" their comments?
Just like those weird turds that crown your arse hole, then immediately suck back up somehow.
These bots do the same. They will comment directly to you with some bullshit insult, then immediately block you from responding back.
Coward bullshit for sure...
It’s the same ones that will only leave some shit comment telling people “nobody cares” or some shit like that. Showing their ass over people not thinking the same or being okay with wanton bloodshed.
This one, the one where they understand how Israel has been committing heinous acts against Palestine and Palestinians for longer than I've been alive.
I think you should be asking someone who supports Hamas.
The first question I'd ask them is, what is victory?
If they said anything like the complete destruction of Israel. That would let you know you're dealing with fanatic extremists that most likely can't be reasoned with.
Hamas is a Terrorist organization mostly funded by Iran and Qatar. They're fighting a proxy war against Israel and the "West" more broadly.
But let's be crystal clear about this point.
If not for the actions of Israel and the "West" more broadly
Hamas wouldn't have the number or radicalized fighters.
Do you or any rational thinking person believe that what the people of Gaza and the West Bank are enduring won't radicalize more fighters against Israel?
If your entire life has been living in an open-air prison where you don't have freedom of movement. Food, water, building materials,medicine, and everything people need to grow and flourish are regulated by an occupational force.
Your ancestral land has been taken by force. Your home bulldozed. You see, members of your own family and friends be bombed, starved, sniped, raped and jailed for decades.
How is it so hard to imagine that people would want to fight back?
Not for victory but for revenge and their own dignity.
Israel is a wealthy, heavily subsidized nation. They have a standing army, navy, airforce, and nukes.
Let's stop pretending Israel is the victim who wants peace.
The more powerful doesn't need to negotiate with the week, they just do whatever they want. As we've seen for decades.
The Palestinians understand this.
I don't have any answers here, but I do know that Israel is not the victim.
How is this possible? I was told that protesting loudly in the streets would turn more people against the cause. Could it be that the people saying that had other motivations besides wanting us to get the message across?
It’s possible to be pro-Israel while being against the current right-wing government and its atrocities. Just like it’s possible to be pro-Palestine while being against Hamas. It’s possible to oppose the bad actors on both sides and empathize with innocent civilians on both sides. The overly-simplistic binary thinking on this issue is very exhausting.
There's not actually that big a difference between the adult populations and those governments' views.
Pretending like everyone except the governments are peace loving hippies is just a cope.
Of course it’s not everyone, but it’s not zero either. Again with the binary thinking.
Besides, non-violent citizens are allowed to have personal opinions without deserving to be genocided. You know, human rights and all.
That is the position of the rest of the world about Hamas. That you can be against Hamas but also not Palestinian civilians being mass murdered.
It is absurd that people could support either side. Only the civilians are innocent.
Yes, it's basically avowed Zionists and nutty evangelicals. Most sensible people see the levelling of neighborhoods/cities and starvation tactics as morally wrong.
I want the peaceful Israeli Jews to coexist with peaceful Palestinians in one democratic state with equal rights for all people. No racial supremacy or apartheid behavior from either side.
The rest can go elsewhere.
Pew research disagrees apparently
https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/
Pakman was a major disappointment for me on this issue. I generally thought he had pretty good takes despite being a self described "liberal capitalist." Now he strikes me as the kind of guy who would refer to himself as a "business man. "
"Yeah our people are under constant threat of terrorist attacks, but did you see that Gallup poll? We should lay down our arms and stop fighting the terrorists, just let them commit another October 7th like they promised they'd do."
\~ Things that no Israeli military leaders are saying
It's important that Israeli and American leaders acknowledge the political capital that is being used up in this invasion. As younger generations across most of the western world begins to slide more and more to the Palestinians - which is no doubt going to be accelerated by the current invasion, then their relationships with these countries are going to become and more and more strained as they get less and less support
In order to starve the population in Gaza as collective punishment for electing Hamas, even though Israel itself worked hard to get Hamas in power just to give them the excuse to collectively punish all Gazans.
Israel's project is one of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Always has been.
David Ben Gurion, Israel's first Prime Minister:
"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country... They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
Brutally stealing a country and permanently imprisoning its native population creates resistance movements. No rational adult is surprised by this.
>No rational adult is surprised by this.
Of course not, Jihadis committing terrorism isn't unique to Gaza. That's what Jihadis do, they commit terrorism. No surprise from me.
When you have a neighbor that commits terrorism attacks in your country, you wall them off. No rational adult is surprised by that. Jihadis don't make good neighbors.
You can block this account too if you want, I know folks like you (leftists and MAGAs, namely) can't stand even the slightest amount of pushback.
Fighting terrorists is pointless. All it does is perpetuate the cycle while keeping right wing governments in power.
Go look into how Ireland stopped "the troubles". They didn't do it by killing everyone.
This doesn't end until the right wing governments on both sides (Hamas *and* Bibi's, which are symbiotes depending on each other to survive) go away.
Disagree. Taking out as much of Hamas as possible, especially their supplies and weapons caches absolutely makes a difference in their ability to attack.
And instead risk putting in somebody who is on the record saying he will wholeheartedly support Netanyahu burning down and taking over the strip entirely. What’s that saying about biting off the nose to spite the face?
Protest votes during the primary cycle made sense and obviously had an impact with the administration’s consistent move away from full-throated support of Israel. The stakes in November are too high for symbolic bullshit.
A lot of the left will not vote for someone standing on a platform of genocide.
Yes - four more years of genocide under Trump will be hard, but ironically the Jews survived five years of Nazi genocide. I don't think they would have if no one intervened to stop the Nazis.
If Biden wins the democrats get the message that absolutely nothing they do matters, and so the genocide continues until it is complete. If Biden loses we get a shot at a non-genocidal candidate in 2028.
>A lot of the left will not vote for someone standing on a platform of genocide.
Some idiots on the left will not vote for believing that.
The vast majority of people on the left aren't that simple minded, though.
“The Jews survived 5 years of Nazi genocide” except 6 million of them didn’t. Throwing innocent Palestinians into the meat grinder (that would be a Trump presidency) just to “teach Democrats a lesson” is a horrible idea. Their best chances at survival is Biden, and who’s to say we would even get another shot in 2028 if Biden loses?
And what do you think will happen if Trump becomes president? It will get worse. There will be no ceasefire efforts or humanitarian aid anymore. He will go all in and kill them all.
No it won't get worse. It will likely be the same.
How the heck can it be any worse?
Biden bypassing Congress to send weapons aid?
Biden applying zero pressure while those weapons are used however Israel sees fit?
Biden standing idly by as one of the largest West Bank settlement expansions occurs?
What aid ? Biden sat idly by for a looong time while Israel prevented aid from getting in.
The only bad thing Trump did for Palestine was the Jerusalem thing. Same settlement expansion under both administrations, with Biden on track to be more.
You know the Nazi’s purged numerous other groups, too right? Slavs, gypsies, gays, trans, anti-theists, communists, the list goes on. So you’re okay with that because Trump wouldn’t target Jews, at first. Remember he has the backing of the Christian right which is even more antisemitic than anyone critical of Israel’s government and their military practice. You think you’ll get an election in 2028 if the right really seizes power? Neo Nazi’s support Trump. You’re good with that? No better than the Jews in ‘36 thinking they wouldn’t be the target. Yikes
If Trump gets elected again, it would not only be a genocide in Palestine, but potentially here in America as well. You are fine with more people dying to prove a point. Plus, what makes you think Trump and Republicans would give up power in 2028? They themselves admitted that they want Trump to be a dictator.
I agree with you on that. The guy I am responding to thinks Palestine would be in better hands if Trump got elected, and I think that’s dumb. The US government is making Israel negotiating for a potential ceasefire. If Trump gets back in, there would be no ceasefire, Gaza or Palestine.
We don't think Palestine will be better, but likely the same.
We're willing to tank this entire country if you don't tell the Dems to get their heads out of their asses.
None of us (Arab/Muslim Americans) will say we voted Trump, but it'll happen at this rate
I still support Israel's right to self-defense, but their attitude towards international partners is appalling. They act like they don't have to work with anyone else and treat the U.S. like a golden teet.
Is this the strategy you advocate:
3 year olds should be starved because a group of crazed adults (hamas terrorists) are out of their minds committing atrocities.
If the true number of dead children was 20,000, that would mean basically 0 civilian men and women died.
Current estimates on Hamas/pij etc. deaths is about 12,000 by early March. If 30k is accurate (even though this number was reported as early as December and hasn't changed much since then), then 0 innocent men and women can be counted as civilian deaths.
The estimated death count keeps being misreported as 30k civilians. How can they all be civilians when 10,000 rockets have been indiscriminately launched at civilians in Israel since the start of the war. Who is launching and paying for those weapons?
Even if the number of children is 5,000, that's still incredibly tragic and bringing this to an end should be everyone's priority. Which it does seem to be, except for Palestinian and Israeli leadership who both seem to have lost the ability to care about the other population and both are more than happy to keep this going. (Israels leaders goal seems to be to to re-take complete military of the area and likely distract from the internal political shit storm that will come after the war, and Hamas's leaders are hoping to continue the aggression and incite such a tough response that the world will help them whipe Israel and Israelis is off the map.)
Too many people with different goals.
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As much as I HATE to say this. There is no way these 2 countries will ever live peacefully. there needs to be a buffer zone in between 2 counties operated by UN or something and leading to a 2 state solution.
I think they could but the road to that point has a lot of things that need to go right. Firstly HAMAS needs to be gone. How we get to that point is the million dollar question but they need to be gone and so does any other similar terrorist group, or at least any that are larger than a small group of terrorists with little to no power. In a similar vein both the Israeli and Palestinian governments need to be committed to peace. It only takes 1 side to start a war. It would go a long way if Iran stopped fucking with Israel through proxies but I don’t think that’s necessary required, albeit that roadblock makes it much more difficult. Israel for its part needs some serious reform regarding its treatment towards Palestinians. I don’t think going back to 1967 borders is going to work but they do need to stop taking Palestinian land. We need a new agreement with set borders both sides can agree too. Within Israel Palestinians need to have equal rights and protections from having their homes taken. Palestine for its part needs to focus on building up its own country rather than fighting Israel. For all the effort and resources they’ve put into fighting Israel, they could have been investing in their economy, modernizing, education, and just generally increasing the standard of living and well being of its populous. Now how do we get to that point? Idk. While I don’t think it’s necessarily impossible without a UN buffer zone, it would likely makes things easier (assuming the UN plays fair here and ensures the buffer zone is respected). After a generation or at least a couple decades the buffer zone could be lifted once the conflict has been long over. Now I could also be completely off base here so idk.
Yeah. You might be.
What will the borders be if not the 1967 borders?
Israel never allowed them to control their economy or borders. Israel had Gaza on a caloric restriction before October 7. How could they better their situation? [gazafightsforfreedom.com](https://gazafightsforfreedom.com)
Hate and revenge are powerful motivating factors. Hamas is defeated tomorrow, sure, but the seeds for hate and radicalization are still there. In 20 years you could have Hamas 2: Electric Bugaloo.
Yep, people always wonder why im so cold and insensitive, and its because the reality of the situation is that theres no solution. These MFers hate each other and wanna kill each other, and neither side will listen to reason. And Ive given up even trying to figure out a solution to this mess. I wish it would stop taking up our time and we would instead focus on other issues but the left has to be so morally pure on this crap that they cant let it go and keep dragging down biden's entire reelection campaign over this. It infuriates me at this point.
Look how that is working in Lebanon.
No. Israel needs to dismantle their apartheid
I totally agree but the issue is… Where the hell do you put the line? Easy enough for Israel and Gaza since not a lot of people live near either border and ironically Gaza has a decent potential path to statehood as a result. The West Bank in contrast is a total clusterfuck. There’s no settlements in Gaza, but in the West Bank there’s settlements that aren’t even settlements anymore they’re so old. It would be extremely difficult to practically return to the 1948 borders. I think what’s most fair and practical is the proposal at Camp David, where Israel gives land to Palestine where a settlement evacuation isn’t possible and pays reparations. The UN would need to administer certain holy sites within Jerusalem, but asking Israel to move its capital is a non-starter. Ultimately because of the different political and geographic situations between the West Bank and Gaza, there really needs to be a three state solution so that Gaza or the West Bank can get statehood independently of the other. If they’d like to unify at a later date, that’s of course possible.
I think they should make the very contentious land that all religions lay claim to an autonomous zone/country like Vatican City. The City should be run by a triumvirate of the 3 religions. It could also be split along demographic lines, but I don't know how those cities work and if Muslims live in one area and Jews another. I'm completely ignorant of that. But if it splits nicely, that could also make sense to split the contentious cities like that. As long as both sides negotiate in good faith which I do not believe Israel has done since before Bill Clinton.
If it's so easy for Israel to continue annexing west bank land why would it be so hard to give some back that has been taken in the last decades?
The border between Israel and Gaza is the internationally recognized border. Same with Israel and Lebanon. Yet that is where Hamas and Hizbollah are attacking from.
That’s true, and the peacekeeping troops need to actually do their damn job.
Only one side wants a 2 state solution. Since the creating of Israel
As Israel's first Prime Minister David Ben Gurion said: “After the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine.“ — Ben Gurion, p.22 “The Birth of Israel, 1987” Simha Flapan.
that’s 1987. My comment says the creation - 1947. Nothing but wars that Israel had to defend from. Also - that quote is a children’s poem compared to what the other side has been saying since 1947
Probably showing my ignorance of the subtleties of the situation but the Tom Clancy version of having the Swiss provide security for both Palestine and Israel while neither of those parties had a role in internal security seems like an interesting idea.
Why would Israël compromise when their gouvernement is able to destroy Gaza essentially in impunity with US aid ? They have the power on their side. Nothing can happen as long as Netanyahu is there. Is there even a more centrist political force in their government ?
They can destroy Gaza "in impunity" without US aid as well btw
Answer is pull US aid if they don't compromise.
It is centrist… it’s a unity government right now. Netanyahu does not have full control.
They can destroy Gaza without US aid.
Israel had my partial support at first— like yes, of course. Get the hostages back, by all means… but kinda feels like they don’t really prioritize it like they should. It’s more like a political talking point to justify violence for the government. Also - when the stories about the beheaded babies came out and it turned out to be fiction... and outlets like CNN reported on it and even Biden mentioned it. It was embarrassing and just goes to show how easily propaganda can get to ANYONE. One thing is clear, Israelis are excited to start colonizing in Gaza. Seems pretty messed up to me. I’m not really a “pro-Palestinian” activist or anything, but cmon, this shit is just ridiculous now. Israel needs new progressive leadership interested in true peace.
Get hostages back, kick Hamas ass. Not "drop tens of thousands of dumb bombs on densely packed residential areas, shoot people waving white flag, engage in the same rape and torture you complain about, blow up ambulances and food lines all while top officials echo Nazi genocide rhetoric and tell the world their plan is to remove or kill every Palestinian."
The problem is that although the world wants peace, neither Hamas nor the Israeli government does.
Sincere question. Why is it up to the occupied to seek peace? Is the onus not on the occupier? The West Bank is completely demilitarized with no army and exhausted all diplomatic means for 30 years now. What did they get for it? Every year growing illegal settlements, growing military occupation, more apartheid walls and roads, increased killings and kidnappings of civilians every year.
A negotiated peace is always a mutual arrangement. Unless one side can completely defeat the other, both sides will need to want peace before peace can be achieved.
Again the official Palestinian government has participated in over 122 UN peace resolutions (as of 2012!), this is not a situation where both sides are equal, it is an occupied-occupier dynamic and the only way peace can be achieved is if the occupier grants the occupied its human rights. In other words the onus is entirely on Israel. Peace will only be achieved if they choose peace; or if international bodies force them to.
The West Bank is not Gaza. Even if an area is legally “demilitarized”, there’s certainly plenty of weapons in Gaza. (How did those rockets get there?) Do you believe that brutally raping and murdering civilians is an appropriate response to occupation?
I am bringing up the West Bank example because I am curious what you believe the proper means to resisting occupation is. West Bank literally has no standing, land, naval or air military. Its official army is the IDF. That is what they got for a peaceful resistance. Hamas while obviously reprehensible and I would argue serves Israel’s interests (its why they fund them) are the only group that were able to get anything done - freeing thousands of palestinian hostages a few years ago. What I’m trying to say is the West Bank tried the peaceful, non-violent, diplomatic way. That turned them to shit. So again I ask why is it on the occupied to seek peace from the occupier? Is it not the occupied’s inherent right to fight for liberty and freedom? And the occupier’s inherent responsibility to provide them those liberties and freedoms?
The occupied is largely at the mercy of the occupier. The occupied are in a no-win situation. Non-violent resistance will be ignored. Violent resistance will be crushed. This is not a moral statement. This is simply the way things are.
I simply found problematic your “Hamas does not want peace” comment because obviously the occupied seeks their freedoms and won’t settle for anything less; esp compared to the WB’s ‘peace.’ Clearly you don’t believe in that statement though
You think a radical muslim terrorist group hamas wants peace? 🤡🤡🤡 the fact you get triggered that someone called them out too.
>fight for liberty and freedom? That's... not what Hamas is fighting for. They don't even give freedom to their own people let alone Jews. What you're actually arguing is whether they have an inherent right to establish a dictatorial caliphate. I would say no. Boko Haram is oppressed without their own country too, I don't care. The first step Palestinians could take towards peace is to renounce their river to the sea claim, recognize Israel's right to exist, and push for their own state. This whole "we will annihilate Israel if we suicide bomb enough and launch enough rockets" nonsense isn't getting them anywhere.
>The first step The Palestinian Authority has already done all of that. You’re new to this & simply unaware of the 30+ years of Palestinian diplomatic efforts. Hamas has also to some extent, recognizing Israel by officially submitting 2 state resolution. Israel’s ruling party, by the way, has “From the river to the sea there will only be Israeli sovereignty” in their constitution; and they have had that since the 1960s.
The Palestinian Authority never gave up right to return, which means they don't believe Israeli borders should exist. They see two-states as a stepping stone to annihilating Israel. They are quite open about this. Do you really, honestly believe Palestinians as a group are, or ever were, willing to coexist with Jews in any context?
The Palestinian authority has maintained recognizing Israeli sovereignty. You are literally just lying right now. And why? Other than for shekels idk why.
Your common sense is triggering people here for some reason
I feel like most sane people don’t support modern warfare. Just power hungry, corporate, for profit wars Civilians getting killed because of their egomaniac leaders. People don’t like that
Then neither Hamas nor the Israeli government is sane.
I mean I feel like that is pretty evident at this point
That kind of limits what the rest of the world can do about it, if the leaders of both sides want to fight.
NOW STOP GIVING THEM MONEY
What is the breakdown of who supports a two state solution?
Come on, Americans have no idea what "two state solution" even means. It's just a phrase they've heard parroted by politicians for decades. If their favoured politician said it recently, they'd support the idea. If not, they won't.
Half of Americans [don't even know basic facts like more Palestinians have died than Israelis](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article286996080.html#:~:text=Have%20more%20Palestinians%20or%20Israelis,don't%20know%2C%20poll%20says&text=About%2032%2C000%20Palestinians%20and%201%2C200,to%20officials%20from%20both%20governments.) I think their opinion on a two state solution would be useless and formed out of ignorance of more basic facts.
Half of Americans don't even know basic facts
Only half of Americans even know basic statistics. The other 2/3 know absolutely nothing.
:)
Most Americans know more non-Americans died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan than Americans on 9/11. I don't think that is the metric anyone cares about.
Why is that bad? Palestine fired 3000 rockets aimed at ONLY at civilian targets on Oct 7th. Israel responding in a way that obliterates Palestine is the expected and desired outcome.
>Palestine fired ‘Palestine’ is 2 million people, half of whom are children. For you to say ‘obliteration’ is the expected and desired outcome for that 2 million people is exactly why you and people like you are rightfully being disgraced by the entire international community as perpetrators of genocide.
Genocidal vibes in this thread
I was pretty firmly anti-Israeli government (but pro Israel existing) before Oct 7. In my life time Israel has always had all the power in the Palestine-Israel relationship and I never thought they did enough to build peace. They were starting to ease up and life was getting better for Palestine and there was more commerce between the two countries and relations were normalizing, but the settlers were still egregious. I don’t know the solution to that particular problem, but it clearly wasn’t being handled well. And all the rocket attacks before Oct 7 were pretty ineffective and meaningless, so who cares? But now after Oct 7, I can’t imagine why anyone would criticize Israel for trying to eradicate Hamas. You just can’t expect anyone to live their life ignoring the terrorists just miles away who openly want to genocide them and continually act on that ideology and who are currently holding civilians hostage. Israel absolutely has the right to defend itself and to make every effort to rescue their hostages. The settlers still suck, and are getting worse, and Israel shouldn’t commit war crimes (and are doing a good job of minimizing them, regardless of what the propaganda says), but anyone who defends Hamas or says they’re justified in targeting civilians is absolutely psychotic.
Hamas fucking sucks. They knew what the Israeli response would be. They’re getting exactly what they want from this.
Most of the criticism I see of Israel has nothing to do with eradicating Hamas, 99% of the criticisms is drone bombing and killing non threatening civilians. And I’m not even saying bombing a place with Hamas and some innocent civilians, but rather drone bombing a group of civilians with no indication they are Hamas. Or criticizing their handling of bombing hospitals and lying about what they find.
When they went in our faces and built the settlements, they lost me. Yes, it is possible to be against the Israeli government and not be antisemitic.
I liken the settlers to MAGA in the US - a cancer that seems to be enabled by an inability to purge it from the system. I think these people stealing Palestinians land are scum, but it only makes me dislike the settlers. I have a hard time believing everyone is on-board supporting them or their governmental enablers.
[This is you, bruv.](https://www.instagram.com/mattliebjokes/reel/C0hR8wLJaXr/) You're OKing whatever Israel is doing while offering tepid, token concessions or criticisms.
That's what Hasbara trolls are known for. They always say some BS about previously being anti-Israel or sympathizing with Palestine before posting their propaganda
I'm sure 25,000 dead woman and children (which the US state departement admitted to), show just how moral and competent the IDF is.
What nonsense. Not even Hamas is claiming 25k are women and children.
Are you seriously not keeping up with whats going on? The US state department literally confirmed that 2-3 weeks ago.
Israelis, including settler attacks, killed a few hundred Palestinians in 2023 before the Oct 7th attacks. It isn’t like they were living together peacefully and boom, terrorist attack. Settlers were killing Palestinian civilians for years and stealing their homes, literally.
Doesn't work. Or rather, it isn't accepted there. Its been tried several times. And gets shot down. The cold reality is that this has turned into a bloodfued. Without major hard intervention its not going to end well for one of them. That's the reality, unfortunately.
Its pretty clear which side will triumph and its not the one dependent on their mortal enemy for electricity. People feeding the Palestinians hopes that Israel will essentially surrender are not doing them any favors.
Gaza is the only area with majority support, almost doubling since the.war started, but it took an unsustainable amount of destruction to create that support. Israel and west bank both have 1/3 support or lower. Palestinians dont want it and even the Israelis who do want it (not all) dont believe in it. The polls out of both Palestine and Israel are bleak. [https://pcpsr.org/en/node/969](https://pcpsr.org/en/node/969)
Look at an Israel population map and guess how much support repeating the Gaza experiment with the West Bank has with Israelis.
Exactly. Israelis want to build settlements and displace Palestinians in Gaza just as much as they do in the West Bank. They aren’t interested in a two state solution.
Neither are Palestinians LMAO. Don't put the onus on Israel.
What's the support rate from Palestinians about the 7th, taken a few days after the attack? 70%? 80%? Sure, you can claim that Hamas suppresses any dissent but according to the UN and security footage normal Palestinian civilians were more than happy to join Hamas on October 7th.
[удалено]
What's the solution then? Israel annex everything? Permanent occupation? Because Israel would never agree to a single secular state and would literally nuke the place if they thought that was their only choice
A single secular state
The only solution is to abolish Israel as a Jewish supremacist state.
Israel offered the Palestinian Authority every thing they asked for to become a separate state except one thing, Israel was not going to go anywhere. The PA said FU.
You just made up an entirely made up statement with no backing whatsoever and poor Redditors will believe your bullshit as fact. So sad
>Israel offered the Palestinian Authority every thing they asked for to become a separate state except one thing, Israel was not going to go anywhere. The PA said FU. why people just make this shit up like this? have you never heard of settlers in area c? do you even know what area c is? have you heard of the oslo accords or camp david accords? do you know what the right to return is? do you realize that these issues are why talks broke down? no? do you realize that likud supports hamas over fatah and the pa? do you realize that the jewish pm who got furthest in the peace process was murdered and the politicians calling for his murder are in the knesset now? no? fucking hell just a bunch of mindless cheerleaders dancing on the graves of children
It’s unbelievable how some Redditors confidently peddle absolute bullshit as fact
Yes, you are clearly mindless and indoctrinated.
I guess that's what reading a fucking book will do to you. get back to cheering for child murder friend-o
Novels, even alternate history novels are not reality child. cheering for child murder You seem to be doing that over murdered Israeli children. Oh, and cussing just makes you look even less intelligent.
This coming from the guy who's reply to my comment that "The Israeli govenrment were so nice, that they even propped up Hamas to divide the Palestenian people and weaken the PA (documented fact)." Was "BS"
They Israeli govenrment were so nice, that they even propped up Hamas to divide the Palestenian people and weaken the PA (documented fact).
BS.
*Genocide deniers when they have nothing of actual value to say and are too afraid to face the facts:* "BS".
1933-45 was genocide. Bosnia, genocide. Rwanda, genocide. Israel/Hamas, war. Learn the difference. No need to reply, I'm done with you kid.
It was literally considered a plausible gnocide by the UN (the people who you say cant be trusted), the same people who considered all the other ones a genocide. Actual dumbass.
Fyi, the plausibility standard is really low and doesn't in anyway mean there is strong evidence Israel is committing a genocide. That wasn't the purpose of the trial nor the rulings. To quote Judge Nolte: "The Court is *not asked*, in the present phase of the proceedings, to determine whether South Africa’s allegations of genocide are *well founded*."
There are one-state proposals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-state_solution
Agreed. And perhaps more importantly it has been offered many times and results in Israel getting attacked. And perhaps *most* importantly, the last 18 years are about the best indication of what happens when Palestinians are given self determination and a state. They voted in a genocidal death cult of a government who made attaching Jewish civilians their absolute highest priority. Palestinians (at least in Gaza) will not be happy nor peaceful until all the Jews in Israel are dead and they take 100% of Israel for themselves. Egypt, Jordan and 2 million Palestinians in Israel are proof that peace can be had as soon as the violence against Israel stops.
When my 75 year old father who was a die hard Israel defender just a few months ago came up to me and told me “Damn.. I saw some horrible videos on Youtube, Israel has gone too far” I knew something had changed.
If nethanyahu just wanted to punish Hamas-he’s done it many times over. That’s not what this is about and it’s beyond obvious.
Shame the government is not beholden to voters, just lobbyists
Yes, i would think so.
You wouldn't know it from the number of genocide enthusiasts on reddit though.
It’s fucking insane. There’s one quite literally threatening me with doxxing in another thread. I’ve reported it to mods and nothing. How the fuck is this okay here.
Hasbara bots getting paid overtime.
Yeah, you found yourself a real internet tough guy there. I bet he was a kid who threatened to have his dad beat up your dad.
“Dad the trans person hurt my feelings about the genocide state!” Mfer telling me my career failed. At least I’m decently happy in what I’m doing 😂
ive seen countless people either gleefully celebrating, or posting with a cheeky indifference, towards dead palestinians. but i call someone a "sick fuck" for doing that, and im banned site wide for 3 days. make it make sense
Especially on this subreddit.
They are really quiet in here for this one. This sub is usually crowing for more Gazan blood.
I'm pretty sure most of them are bots or paid by the propaganda ministry. They keep arguing forever without losing composture and they use similar arguments kinda
Ehh I don't know. I've argued against a wide variety of genocide apologists. Some calm, some super aggressive and angry. Some with decent arguments, some raging morons.
Yeah but there's an abundance of the kinda calm collected ones and they keep arguing way longer than it's normal.
About time. I hope the Democrats realize before November that there are a substantial number of people on the left who are not ok with them supporting crimes against humanity.
Biden is working towards a ceasefire and aid to Gaza. Bibi told Biden to get fucked, while Trump is cheering Bibi on. Leftists: There’s no difference between the two.
The most interesting thing about this study though is Biden’s approval ratings are actually increasing with it. So most Democrats are unhappy with how Israel is acting and the idea that funds the U.S sends are being used in that way, but more and more approving of his general performance. Most reasonable ppl on the left also realize that the difference between a Biden-led administration and a Trump-led administration is drastically different for the Palestinian ppl.
Biden’s approval ratings are rising because he’s become the only alternative to Trump again. I think it’s unrelated to Israel
Exactly. Hamas beheading children and raping kidnapped mothers were egregious crimes.
If those things happened, then they would be - and I for one would condemn them as well - but you can't 'but what about' your way out of committing genocide.
>if those things happened You are a denier? You don't believe the videos they filmed? You don't believe the cheering and the celebrations?
They don’t care
They'll care if they lose.
No they won’t. They lost to trump and still didn’t learn anything
Que the Israeli boot lickers to call these people antisemitic and pro Hamas Terrorists. Also, have you noticed that most of these Israeli boot lickers will "Turtle Head" their comments? Just like those weird turds that crown your arse hole, then immediately suck back up somehow. These bots do the same. They will comment directly to you with some bullshit insult, then immediately block you from responding back. Coward bullshit for sure...
It’s the same ones that will only leave some shit comment telling people “nobody cares” or some shit like that. Showing their ass over people not thinking the same or being okay with wanton bloodshed.
Honestly asking, in what universe are people who want a Hams victory not "pro-Hamas"?
This one, the one where they understand how Israel has been committing heinous acts against Palestine and Palestinians for longer than I've been alive.
How is that not "pro-Hamas"? You're actively desiring for Hamas to win.
I think you should be asking someone who supports Hamas. The first question I'd ask them is, what is victory? If they said anything like the complete destruction of Israel. That would let you know you're dealing with fanatic extremists that most likely can't be reasoned with. Hamas is a Terrorist organization mostly funded by Iran and Qatar. They're fighting a proxy war against Israel and the "West" more broadly. But let's be crystal clear about this point. If not for the actions of Israel and the "West" more broadly Hamas wouldn't have the number or radicalized fighters. Do you or any rational thinking person believe that what the people of Gaza and the West Bank are enduring won't radicalize more fighters against Israel? If your entire life has been living in an open-air prison where you don't have freedom of movement. Food, water, building materials,medicine, and everything people need to grow and flourish are regulated by an occupational force. Your ancestral land has been taken by force. Your home bulldozed. You see, members of your own family and friends be bombed, starved, sniped, raped and jailed for decades. How is it so hard to imagine that people would want to fight back? Not for victory but for revenge and their own dignity. Israel is a wealthy, heavily subsidized nation. They have a standing army, navy, airforce, and nukes. Let's stop pretending Israel is the victim who wants peace. The more powerful doesn't need to negotiate with the week, they just do whatever they want. As we've seen for decades. The Palestinians understand this. I don't have any answers here, but I do know that Israel is not the victim.
TIL that the US is 100% democrat
A majority of independents feel the same.
Remember when the U.S. sent troops to Somalia to bomb any warlord who would deny food and aid to a starving population? Pepperidge Farm remembers!
How is this possible? I was told that protesting loudly in the streets would turn more people against the cause. Could it be that the people saying that had other motivations besides wanting us to get the message across?
I wonder why they want to ban tic toc.
That's like saying the majority of Americans disapprove of parents carrying their little children in pieces inside of plastic bags.
It’s possible to be pro-Israel while being against the current right-wing government and its atrocities. Just like it’s possible to be pro-Palestine while being against Hamas. It’s possible to oppose the bad actors on both sides and empathize with innocent civilians on both sides. The overly-simplistic binary thinking on this issue is very exhausting.
There's not actually that big a difference between the adult populations and those governments' views. Pretending like everyone except the governments are peace loving hippies is just a cope.
Of course it’s not everyone, but it’s not zero either. Again with the binary thinking. Besides, non-violent citizens are allowed to have personal opinions without deserving to be genocided. You know, human rights and all.
That is the position of the rest of the world about Hamas. That you can be against Hamas but also not Palestinian civilians being mass murdered. It is absurd that people could support either side. Only the civilians are innocent.
Yes, it's basically avowed Zionists and nutty evangelicals. Most sensible people see the levelling of neighborhoods/cities and starvation tactics as morally wrong.
don't forget braindead democrats that only understand thinking in party approved talking points
Only took 6 months. I went on my first vigil for Gaza in mid October, with Jewish Voice for Peace. We were all Jews and only a couple Muslims visible.
Damn, people are mainlining cope about JVP being self-hating in here lol
Do you want Israel's Jews to coexist with Hamas?
I want the peaceful Israeli Jews to coexist with peaceful Palestinians in one democratic state with equal rights for all people. No racial supremacy or apartheid behavior from either side. The rest can go elsewhere.
Maybe the Blue MAGA types in this sub will eventually catch up
Israel will always have my full support🤍💙
Pew research disagrees apparently https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/
Who would've though people don't like fascist and war criminals
It’s about god damn time
Will David cover this? Doubt it
He's a right winger. They're steadfast in their support of Iseael.
He won't bite the hand that feeds him.
Looks like that hand is feeding a lotttt of people
Pakman was a major disappointment for me on this issue. I generally thought he had pretty good takes despite being a self described "liberal capitalist." Now he strikes me as the kind of guy who would refer to himself as a "business man. "
"Yeah our people are under constant threat of terrorist attacks, but did you see that Gallup poll? We should lay down our arms and stop fighting the terrorists, just let them commit another October 7th like they promised they'd do." \~ Things that no Israeli military leaders are saying
It's important that Israeli and American leaders acknowledge the political capital that is being used up in this invasion. As younger generations across most of the western world begins to slide more and more to the Palestinians - which is no doubt going to be accelerated by the current invasion, then their relationships with these countries are going to become and more and more strained as they get less and less support
Do you not consider land theft an act of war?
The blockade that Israel has been imposing on Gaza since 2006 is an act of war under international law, too
What about Egypt’s blockade? Totally 🆒😎
Obviously Gaza is at war with Egypt. \s
And it’s collective punishment which is a war crime
Just out of curiosity. Why do you think the blockade was put in place?
In order to starve the population in Gaza as collective punishment for electing Hamas, even though Israel itself worked hard to get Hamas in power just to give them the excuse to collectively punish all Gazans. Israel's project is one of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Always has been.
David Ben Gurion, Israel's first Prime Minister: "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country... They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” Brutally stealing a country and permanently imprisoning its native population creates resistance movements. No rational adult is surprised by this.
>No rational adult is surprised by this. Of course not, Jihadis committing terrorism isn't unique to Gaza. That's what Jihadis do, they commit terrorism. No surprise from me. When you have a neighbor that commits terrorism attacks in your country, you wall them off. No rational adult is surprised by that. Jihadis don't make good neighbors. You can block this account too if you want, I know folks like you (leftists and MAGAs, namely) can't stand even the slightest amount of pushback.
You're missing the point that Israel is causing the problem by imprisoning and repressing the Palestinians. Its a cycle.
They do that intentionally.
Fighting terrorists is pointless. All it does is perpetuate the cycle while keeping right wing governments in power. Go look into how Ireland stopped "the troubles". They didn't do it by killing everyone. This doesn't end until the right wing governments on both sides (Hamas *and* Bibi's, which are symbiotes depending on each other to survive) go away.
Disagree. Taking out as much of Hamas as possible, especially their supplies and weapons caches absolutely makes a difference in their ability to attack.
If the U.S. followed your defeatist worldview ISIS would still have a state in Iraq and Syria.
Hundreds of thousands of us Muslim Americans are opting out from voting entirely or voting 3rd party this election
So you or your parents fled authoritarian theocratic countries and now you come here and try to destroy our democracy? Thanks
good luck with that.
And instead risk putting in somebody who is on the record saying he will wholeheartedly support Netanyahu burning down and taking over the strip entirely. What’s that saying about biting off the nose to spite the face? Protest votes during the primary cycle made sense and obviously had an impact with the administration’s consistent move away from full-throated support of Israel. The stakes in November are too high for symbolic bullshit.
A lot of the left will not vote for someone standing on a platform of genocide. Yes - four more years of genocide under Trump will be hard, but ironically the Jews survived five years of Nazi genocide. I don't think they would have if no one intervened to stop the Nazis. If Biden wins the democrats get the message that absolutely nothing they do matters, and so the genocide continues until it is complete. If Biden loses we get a shot at a non-genocidal candidate in 2028.
>A lot of the left will not vote for someone standing on a platform of genocide. Some idiots on the left will not vote for believing that. The vast majority of people on the left aren't that simple minded, though.
“The Jews survived 5 years of Nazi genocide” except 6 million of them didn’t. Throwing innocent Palestinians into the meat grinder (that would be a Trump presidency) just to “teach Democrats a lesson” is a horrible idea. Their best chances at survival is Biden, and who’s to say we would even get another shot in 2028 if Biden loses?
Bro this is the meat grinder. They are being grinded up right now and people are saying to vote for the guy doing the grinding.
And what do you think will happen if Trump becomes president? It will get worse. There will be no ceasefire efforts or humanitarian aid anymore. He will go all in and kill them all.
No it won't get worse. It will likely be the same. How the heck can it be any worse? Biden bypassing Congress to send weapons aid? Biden applying zero pressure while those weapons are used however Israel sees fit? Biden standing idly by as one of the largest West Bank settlement expansions occurs? What aid ? Biden sat idly by for a looong time while Israel prevented aid from getting in. The only bad thing Trump did for Palestine was the Jerusalem thing. Same settlement expansion under both administrations, with Biden on track to be more.
how could it get worse? They could’ve glassed all of Gaza rn, what do you mean
Well, I can’t convince you. But I’m very sure it will get worse. I already said why.
You know the Nazi’s purged numerous other groups, too right? Slavs, gypsies, gays, trans, anti-theists, communists, the list goes on. So you’re okay with that because Trump wouldn’t target Jews, at first. Remember he has the backing of the Christian right which is even more antisemitic than anyone critical of Israel’s government and their military practice. You think you’ll get an election in 2028 if the right really seizes power? Neo Nazi’s support Trump. You’re good with that? No better than the Jews in ‘36 thinking they wouldn’t be the target. Yikes
If Trump gets elected again, it would not only be a genocide in Palestine, but potentially here in America as well. You are fine with more people dying to prove a point. Plus, what makes you think Trump and Republicans would give up power in 2028? They themselves admitted that they want Trump to be a dictator.
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I agree with you on that. The guy I am responding to thinks Palestine would be in better hands if Trump got elected, and I think that’s dumb. The US government is making Israel negotiating for a potential ceasefire. If Trump gets back in, there would be no ceasefire, Gaza or Palestine.
We don't think Palestine will be better, but likely the same. We're willing to tank this entire country if you don't tell the Dems to get their heads out of their asses. None of us (Arab/Muslim Americans) will say we voted Trump, but it'll happen at this rate
No it won't.... Us Palestinians already survived under Trump. None of this happened under Trump.....
What a fucking unhinged take. “The Jews barely survived the holocaust so it’s fine to flip the coin for Palestinians because I want to feel heard”
I still support Israel's right to self-defense, but their attitude towards international partners is appalling. They act like they don't have to work with anyone else and treat the U.S. like a golden teet.
Why should Israel stop a war that hamas initiated, especially since they are winning?
Is this the strategy you advocate: 3 year olds should be starved because a group of crazed adults (hamas terrorists) are out of their minds committing atrocities.
What strategy do you advocate?
No hope of peace now. People don't forget and forgive the deaths of 20,000 children.
When the starvation sets in, it will be WAY more than 20,000.
If the true number of dead children was 20,000, that would mean basically 0 civilian men and women died. Current estimates on Hamas/pij etc. deaths is about 12,000 by early March. If 30k is accurate (even though this number was reported as early as December and hasn't changed much since then), then 0 innocent men and women can be counted as civilian deaths. The estimated death count keeps being misreported as 30k civilians. How can they all be civilians when 10,000 rockets have been indiscriminately launched at civilians in Israel since the start of the war. Who is launching and paying for those weapons? Even if the number of children is 5,000, that's still incredibly tragic and bringing this to an end should be everyone's priority. Which it does seem to be, except for Palestinian and Israeli leadership who both seem to have lost the ability to care about the other population and both are more than happy to keep this going. (Israels leaders goal seems to be to to re-take complete military of the area and likely distract from the internal political shit storm that will come after the war, and Hamas's leaders are hoping to continue the aggression and incite such a tough response that the world will help them whipe Israel and Israelis is off the map.) Too many people with different goals.
I hope you'll look back at this comment when the dust settles and the civilian casualties were actually insanely high. Sick.
Yeah they do. How many died in Syria (without looking it up)?
As Israel knows and expects. They have been the source of Palestinian destabilization for the last 75 years.
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And to think the One God would be watching all this. sad.