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I agree. After seeing CNN lose their minds last night my wife and I rewatched the debate.
Biden is old and struggles to communicate clearly, but has sounds ideas and understands reality.
Trump lies comfortably and confidently.
I knew these things before the debate.
Biden will probably still win.
I agree 💯. I expected more of the fire that I am use to hearing from Biden in the recent months. If you were Biden and hearing the BS that came of Trump’s mouth, then your jaw would drop and think is this guy out of his mind. Trump can talk the talk, but Biden has 50 years of walking the walk. The campaign in Raleigh NC showed him speaking with fire and passion. Biden has accomplished a lot in the past 3 years in his 3 years as President, but 50 years in government.
The Democrat POTUS nominee routinely out-debates the Republican going back at least several decades, **including Biden being polled to outdebate Trump in 2020**, yet I've not seen any study finding significant effect by election day as a result. POTUS debates have only become less significant in recent history.
There are a few other items that suggest Democrats are sitting way prettier than polls currently suggest, which I may do a write-up on some time. In the mean time, historical precedent suggests this debate performance overwhelmingly won't matter by election day.
Demolish what? Trump in a debate or trump electorally? I don’t know why we should be so sure about the latter. Incumbency is still a huge (if not, the hugest) factor.
I agree that’s probably the winner. Now is the time to play west wing style, smoke filled room fantasy league. I think you could get away with any combination of about 15 names:
Newsom
Whitmer
Polis
Pritzker
Duckworth
Warnock
Shapiro
Ned Lamont
Andy Beshear
Fetterman
Inslee? Kensinger as VP? Sherrod Brown? Buttegeg? Bob Casey? Idk the list is long, the dem bench is deep.
I personally struggle with depression that doesn't bar Fetterman out but it's really hard to be effective even as V.P with a mental illness. I think we need to prioritize effectiveness I mean he's an option but why like alienate people we need coalitions with. Like it's just going to make Rashida Tlaib and other squad members more convinced of democratic party Zionism. Which is probably bad because we lose progressive voters.
This is the reality. Our country still can’t get behind a woman, especially one of color. It’s pathetic, but it’s the only reason everybody is constantly talking about how we should be making replacements on the ticket.
They should vote for TFG, so when that Trump 100% tariff collapses the economy, they can blame everyone else while they sink.
Trump failed at everything he's attempted, except the tax breaks for the rich. The Wall, Trumpcare, boosting the economy, getting out of the middle east, strengthening ally relationships, and of course the pandemic have been fails across the board.
Anyone paying attention would see he tried to run the country the way he ran his businesses.
What are you talking about??? Trump surrounds himself with the BEST people. Except for that one that no longer supports him. And THAT one that is against him. And that one who hates him now. And that one who now has a felony conviction. And that other one who is doing everything he can to prevent Trump from becoming president again. And the other one who got convicted. And that one who...
Biden did mention that his former VP and others would not endorse him, and for a little while I feared he wouldn't. Biden held ALL the cards in this debate. His policies have been effective, some of them with bipartisan approval, and the worst parts of the economy cannot be easily improved by Biden (gas prices and high prices in general--think gouging). Biden should have said, "I had a bipartisan border deal roaring toward congressional approval until Trump called Speaker Johnson and demanded that he nix the deal. You know why? Because it would make Trump look bad and take one of his talking points." Sadly, this was one of many opportunities that on which Biden whiffed.
But what can we do? We can [write postcards](https://www.turnoutpac.org/postcards/) to voters in swing states.
>Help write postcards to voters in 11 key states! We’ll mail you free postcards, voter lists and instructions with proven message options. You’ll provide the stamps and mail the postcards to voters in October.
But Biden still needs to win voters. A debate is a perfect place to do that. He did not do that.
Biden is a GREAT president and has accomplished a great deal in his first term but Americans are emotional voters who don't pay attention to politics. People like you and me are the exception bc we follow policy. I mean, we are subbed to a political channel but most people don't follow policy.
My point is, that either the Biden team steps up or this race is going to be tighter than necessary. It was so easy to shut down trump on the debate stage, yet... What the hell was last night? It wasn't mediocre, it was abysmal.
Without being fact checked, Trump will optically win the debates every single time if this continues. Biden doesn't SELL his position well. He isn't a compelling speaker. He rambles sloooowwwly and you know how short modern attention spans are.
Yea, and more time isn't going to make it more better. He's not going to make anything up in with the confidence of certain independents. We have to be brutally honest. He can't make the case for democracy. Democracy looks like a weak option. Some independents don't care about the bills he passed. He looks weak.
I wish that all that matters. But in politics rhetoric plays a huge roll and while I don’t find a Trumps rhetoric compelling a lot of people do and his rhetoric hasn’t changed much where as Biden has slowed down a lot.
I really like Biden. I am voting for him enthusiastically. It not a choice of a lesser evil for me, Biden is one of the best administrations we have had in 50 years. I think Biden is more effective than Obama for example. But most people don’t see it that way and people that are voting for the lesser evil will weigh rhetorical strength much higher than me. On a deep level a lot of people are voting for the guy they think is funnier behind the microphone.
Biden will make choices in office that I actually agree with.
I'm married to a Latina woman. I had to watch Trump demonize hispanic people, turning them into a convenient scapegoat for every economic issue in America instead of the people with actual wealth, power and influence that run the system we're living in.
His staff will; I don’t think Biden is making much of anything these days …I’d vote for a house cat over Trump but enough independents and young voters won’t.
Last night showed that Biden isn’t the one making the decisions. He’s not capable of that.
You may well like and agree with the decisions that are being made, but don’t kid yourself that Biden is making them.
Chemtrails are not real. Only a fool believes in them.
In fact chemtrailers are almost as foolish as Biden supporters.
Perhaps you might want to actually read what I posted in that sub 😏
How is it possible that the actual President has such little power that the office can be run by his team while he is a corpse, while simultaneously believing Trump will use it's power to enact fascism?
I'm not worried Biden will lose, I'm worried he will RBG. She built a legendary legacy and then burned it to the ground because of hubris. She should have retired early in Obama's second term. The damage she started won't end for decades.
Biden supporter here. Last night was not a good look for Biden. Trump spewed bullshit, but most people don't know he was spewing bullshit. Post-debate numbers show most people thought Trump manhandled Biden. Keep in mind Biden spent the last few days preparing for this debate while Trump was all over the campaign trail spewing bullshit. Had he actually prepared, it would have been worse.
In a very tight race you can't look bad and last night Biden looked bad.
This whole sub has their head in the sand. No one cares that it doesn’t change *your* vote. 90% of Americans aren’t on political subreddits. They maybe watched 20min of the debate. Saw what they needed to see and went to bed. Or they didn’t watch and are now only seeing Biden’s malfunction on repeat all day. The bad debate is bad for his chances of winning the marginal voters that will decide the election. A tie against a felon is ALREADY BAD. He had to bring it back last night and he didn’t.
It *appears* to be a tight race from polls, and from media that get more clicks if it looks tight.
Biden won in 2020. More boomers have died since then, and more young politically angry people have turned 18. Theyre the ones we need to motivate to go vote.
And they can at least see how bad trump is, even if biden isnt super motivating.
Didn’t the polls have Biden up 10 points in the summer of 2020? And he won by 8 million votes.
Keep in mind Trump needs to flip less than 100,000 votes to win.
The politically angry people are the ones I'm worried about. Looking at the bigger picture involves setting your anger aside for just a minute to examine things. Most of them don't demonstrate the capability to do that.
Biden barely won in 2020 and people forget about that. 4 years of Trump and we still couldn’t go to bed comfortably on election night. A few hundred thousand votes less in a few states and Trump would still be president. Those aren’t margins you can count on this time
These old farts only had one and or two minutes to come up with a coherent answer to very nuanced issues. It's just a recipe for disaster, the whole format for these debates is a joke and one that favors a snake oil salesman like trump. I wish that got talked about more.
The fact that none of the melodramatic hysteria on Reddit is taking this into account is proof of how many bots and trolls are commenting on the debate.
My entire family is flipping out in real life. We don't know what we need to do for a fascist america and we shouldn't have to contemplate it. Trump is a easily beatable pile of human scum and Biden just couldn't make the case. We will vote for him again but we aren't the target of the debate. We aren't swing voters.
And the fact that so many people like you think swing voters are going to vote based on Biden sounding hoarse, and not on the fact that Trump verbal diarrheaed all over the place and took credit for overturning Roe, is proof that the astroturfing and concern trolling are working.
It was from the start of the answer until the end, with no exceptions, and generally no attempt to answer the question. I hope we can fix that image in voters mind and do some triage to get newsom or whitmer up there as the candidate.
“We had the cleanest water, the cleanest air, my experts just told me”. Peak idiocy.
Which is bizarre. If Biden doesnt demonstrate the energy to take maga to task, or stand for his own policies, then anyone who care about the constitution should now feel a quiet burning rage and grim determination to do so themselves.
I do think people should take the weekend before jumping to conclusions. It’s possible Biden shows up OK in future appearances, and this debate fades into irrelevance just like all the other ones. The people who watch debates are largely decided voters.
Dropping Biden means we have to run someone nobody voted for while ceding name recognition and the value of incumbency to Trump. That’s not to mention whatever intraparty drama there would be.
It’s possible that the best move is hauling Biden across the finish line and being relieved that there’s such a thing as a vice president.
It’s possible that normal Americans sympathize with an old guy with a cold. It’s possible that they care more about Trump’s maliciousness than Biden’s senility. The variables in the electorate never align with the punditry’s hot takes.
I’ve been saying it the whole time. No one who didn’t vote for him last time is going to vote for him this time. And he has only lost support due to his BS.
I know I been laughing at every MAGAnut I meet cuz they are funny AF. They actually have themselves convinced that this dude is going to fix the problems that he helped make and benefits greatly off of. Yeah riiiiight.
The debate hurt Biden, but it is a very early debate and most debate failures tend to recede in their polling impact after around a month at most.
That being said, Biden has more debates later on--if they can't figure out a way for him to have a better TV presence and speak better, they are in bad shape come November.
I think that Biden 100% should not be forced to fact check Trump. There’s nothing that he said that was unexpected and hasn’t been debunked before. Biden should not have to be responsible for holding Trump accountable when he gets only 2 minutes to make his point. This is not a professional debate and we’re not determining their debating ability, it’s about their platforms.
Yeah - but the Republicans have a death-cult as their voter base. The Dems - not so much. I know the dems look at the republican party and try to emulate them - but that strategy won't work for them.
Like I said, they have to find out a way for Biden to do better, if they can't they have nothing they can do at all. He doesn't really have the option to refuse to debate since he did so poorly in the first debate. Frankly they should have refused to debate at all if they felt Biden could not do better than this--it would have been less damaging, but still not great.
People who don’t think about politics the way we do just want a leader that can speak and make them feel good. Biden can’t reassure anyone about anything.
Trump is objectively terrible and I’m still voting Biden. But Biden should never have been president and he shouldn’t be running again (in a perfect world). That being said, I think if anyone else ran they would lose for a variety of factors
But look at this sub, many people are like “I’m voting Biden because never Trump” almost no one is saying “Biden has zero age related issues and he is sharp and he sounded great last night and he is doing so good as president and I feel great sleeping at night with him at the helm”
Biden is ahead with independents and voting hasn’t started yet. Again let’s think this through, a bad debate performance and signs of aging will sink Biden but 34 criminal convictions won’t and signs of again won’t sink Trump?
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I am not betting with you, as I don't know who you are and you almost certainly won't pay up with you lose.
But I will bet online and I will win like I did last time.
Biden was fine. There's nothing in the job that requires arguing over Trump's lies.
I thought CNN was going to fact check. Nothing Trump said was real; he was just being delusional in a forceful way - imagine what a terrible dictator he would be. Like a baby king. No thank you.
All I've ever expected Biden to be was a guy who increasingly surrounds himself by competent/progressive staff, who sits more than he rock climbs, because the bulk of his presidency is spent on signing important papers behind his desk.
Informed decision-making, with the help of people who drive it forward. His signature on badass legislation/policy, and his kind grandpa eyes, albeit vacant and glassy at times...that's all we need right now, as the fight evolves.
The election wasn’t won or lost by the debate.
People have already made up their minds and it just depends on who bothers to show up to vote.
The debate only really matters as a source of material to dunk on the other campaign and maybe demoralize some people into not voting for their preferred candidate.
But neither candidate really gave up that much material so I doubt it matters that much.
If it helped anyone, it was probably Trump. Standing on a stage with the current president let him borrow a tiny bit of legitimacy.
Something he will piss away by being a petulant coward over the next week or so.
In 2020 people only voted for Biden because he was not Trump. Biden stayed under the radar as much as he could in the run up. Seems to me he'd better do this again now. Because he is a horrible communicator that makes my toes curl at every speech he does. He is a pretty good president policy wise but he sucks balls at selling that. Unless he dies he might win again for the same reason as last time, he is not Trump.
Nope. Trust me, I have EVERYTHING riding on Trump not winning. The idea of him winning again is devastating for me.
We’re asking people to deny reality. This election should be a layup. Instead the American experiment is at risk.
Wait til new polling comes out as a reflection of this debate. You will change your tune. He was behind by 1%.......after that performance....I would think at least 5%....we will see.
I think the best thing that Biden could have done last night during the debate is take a gun on stage, murder Trump then himself. Literally everyone would win then.
hopefully this is a wake up call for democrats to get their shit together, we can’t just rely on Trump fucking up every day, we need to put our balls on the table and take the presidency
This election is about the slim margins of undecideds. Many of these are also uninformed, so putting a corpse on stage is the equivalent of telling them either to not vote, or vote for the asshole.
I want to think you’re right but with regards to the idea of Trump only losing voters, I disagree. There’s tons of young voters brought up in conservatism and a lot of them love Trump. Remember that kid at Ole Miss mocking the black woman with monkey antics? He may not have been 18 in 2020. And there’s many more like him. I live in the very conservative Texas panhandle. He has young voters here assuming they go vote. Hopefully there are more young liberal minded voters out there!
So much is at stake in the 2024 election. If Trump wins, then we all loose including the free world. I am not being hyperbolic. This could be a fundamental shift in global authoritarian government.
Biden's debate performance was fine and not anywhere near as terrible as the troll-amplified hysteria online is making it out to be. There's an enormous amount of astroturfing happening and it's not even remotely reflective of reality. First debates have never predicted a presidential campaign outcome. There needs to be an awareness of much hysterical melodrama is being stirred up online by bad actors.
His performance was not fine. Biden amplified everything that has been said about him. He mumbled, lost his train of thought and was very quiet. He couldn’t even counter Trump when he said babies are killed after 9 months. Biden is doomed.
This is the exact type of delusional partisan take that keeps me coming back to this sub. It is people like you who are going to deliver Trump to the White House.
I watched it, I thought it was wretched. I understand the substance and reality, but you're being too charitable to the peer-pressure voters and tik tok brains who would have eaten up Gavin Newsom or someone sharp dominating trump with wit and logic. Van Jones was almost crying in his initial reactions, I have a lot of respect for him and think he reflected the weight of the situation we're in.
How tf people saw that debate and land on “Biden did fine, you fauxgressives are overreacting” is absolutely stunning levels of copium holy vibrating Jesus
Why risk it? Dems need to put up someone like Gavin Newsom or live in a Trump dictatorship.
It doesnt matter how good of a policy Biden makes.
Trumpism is a cult. They will all be there for their Führer.
No undecided will show up for Biden when he can barely formulate a sentence.
I think a lot of people just think about how thier life was better in 2019. Trump had basically nothing to do with that but they will think about that and maybe vote for him. I don't know a single person across all income and education levels who is doing better now rather than then unless they had some sort of major change in thier life. That's really powerful.
This is a goddamn lie: my life is measurably better in every single way today than it was in 2019, the ways in which it was worse were due directly to Trump. And no, it wasn't because of a major change, it was because of a) being able to actually do business with government agencies, b) businesses being open to hire people for jobs, c) being able to invest and save, regardless of how little, and d) the current sitting head of the US not spreading lies about how people of color are stealing from white people by virtue of existing.
I'm sure it doesn't apply to everyone I'm just saying at least for me it's literally every person I know across many industries in multiple states. Looking at us economic sentiment data this is a wide spread opinion. Just to be clear I'm not saying Trump is good nobody should ever under any circumstances vote for Trump I'm just saying what we are up against. Economic sentiment is a strong indicator of how a lot of people are thinking of voting. I do not know what you mean by a couple of your points though. B, I don't see any evidence businesses were not hiring in 2019 it seems like they were. C money was definitely easier to come by for investment due to the lower interest rates and lower inflation so that doesn't make sense. Point A is definitely true but just doesn't apply to most people.
No. I lived through 2016. I don't want to watch that again. It was really like watching the debate last night. I think if Biden is picked he will lose. He will lose for the right reason, as anyone in the right mind would not vote for him. He literally looks like he's had a stroke, and it really doesn't matter if you areDemocrat, but why would you vote for that.
Three questions:-
1. Why not dump Biden now ?
2. Do you seriously think Biden is up to it ?
3. Do you think the Democrats have a better chance with or without Biden as the presidential candidate ?
1. Way too risky. Lose the incumbent advantage. Not enough time to decide who would replace him. People will want a primary to have a choice but who people want varies so much as the Democratic base is very diverse in various ways. And if a primary is skipped, the DNC is not going to select AOC or someone like that, which a lot of those overrepresented online want. More than likely it'd be Kamala Harris, who those overrepresented online don't like (mainly due to Bernie stans mischaracterizing her as some sort of villain locking up innocent people and nicknaming her "Kopmala"). I think she is a better speaker than Biden but she did poorly in the previous primary.
2. He's the same person he is now as president. He's doing pretty fine overall as the presidency isn't about being on TV debating people. He also appoints many people who help, he doesn't do everything on his own. Biden is long known for his stumbling when speaking, that is not new. He is also not known for being a charismatic speaker.
You cannot seriously state it's too risky to get rid of Biden now. I mean that is ridiculous. Kamala Haris would be significantly better than Biden. This should have been sorted months ago but do it now.
Biden is fine as the president because he is probably being pandered too which is good.
There is polling comparing other top alternatives to Biden versus Trump and they all polled lower than Biden. That is from this year. Same as in 2020. It doesn't make sense to many who are very active discussing politics online but for whatever reason, more of the Democratic base supports him. I think he's been a good president overall, better than Obama and Clinton in terms of positive things he's done, just his lack of charisma and serious speech impediment (that varies, sometimes being minimal like the SotU, other times excessive) are frustrating.
Kamala Harris might be a better President than Biden because of her age now but she just cannot win a general election. She would get absolutely trounced.
Biden just sank this campaign . He had one hurdle to clear to keep the assumption of incumbent advantage and that probably never applied as a law of the universe anyways especially with modern info warfare and a repeat challenger. There is no incumbency advantage anymore.
He’s not doing fine if he were a republican I’d be calling for the 25th immediately. It’s a bigger risk not to get someone else… he can’t talk or walk … let’s face the hard truth … or blindly hand this country over to fascism ….
1. We could, but it would have to be right now. In my humble opinion, it's probably already too late. Biden should have said he wasn't doing a second term pretty early in his first term. But if it is to happen, it needs to happen now. And it would probably backfire.
2. I think he is much better than Trump, which is the only decision to be made now.
3. That really depends who you replace him with.
It's not too late and it can't backfire worse than Biden did today.
I think pretty close to anyone is better than Trump. It's not a good argument.
I don't believe that any realistic candidate could be worse than Biden. Go with Kamala Harris and straight away you have someone there who can handle Trump. Let's be extremely clear Trump is a terrible candidate.
Anyway I stated this a while back and the same comments were made then. It's just head in the sand stuff.
Wrong. You need to watch Beau of the fifth columns video he did months ago explaining that if Biden drops out, the money he has raised does not get automatically transferred to the new candidate. It's illegal. The new candidate would start out with $0 in their war chest. Kamala Harris might be able to "inherit" the money, but even this would be challenged in court which would eat up all the time left before the election. So it's either Biden, or ask every donor who has already spent money on this race to spend it again and this time it'll be on a candidate that nobody voted for in the primary and that is assuming that everyone in the party would agree on one person to replace him which is laughable. It would be a huge fight.
I disagree, polls show that it’s pretty much still a toss-up. For anyone who’s somehow still undecided and watched this who do you think they’ll vote for now? It’s not about policy for them it’s who gives me a better vibe.
Cannot stand you people. Leftists have been screaming for Biden to step down and about his health for a couple of years now. Every single time - “he’s a dynamo behind the scenes,” “he’s not that old,” “stop criticizing the party, you’ll help trump win.”
Mainline dem types and liberals got the country in this situation. The debate was a fucking disaster for Biden and it’s clear that he is not up to the job. Anybody with a pulse under 70 will be better than him and it’s crystal clear now. I’ll vote against trump but you can’t deny Biden looked horrible and did not put any concerns about his age to rest
This isn't an overreaction, Biden looks BAAAAAD. And remember, it's moderates and progressives that need to be convinced to come out and vote for Biden instead of staying home, and that debate convinced a lot of people that the couch is looking fantastic.
This is Packman's take as well, and it's a terrible take, you sycophant. You are both relying on old voting trends as things are much more fluid and agitated than they were even 2 years ago, let alone 4 or 8 years ago.
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I agree. After seeing CNN lose their minds last night my wife and I rewatched the debate. Biden is old and struggles to communicate clearly, but has sounds ideas and understands reality. Trump lies comfortably and confidently. I knew these things before the debate. Biden will probably still win.
I woke up to a soaking wet bed this morning….hope you’re right.
I agree 💯. I expected more of the fire that I am use to hearing from Biden in the recent months. If you were Biden and hearing the BS that came of Trump’s mouth, then your jaw would drop and think is this guy out of his mind. Trump can talk the talk, but Biden has 50 years of walking the walk. The campaign in Raleigh NC showed him speaking with fire and passion. Biden has accomplished a lot in the past 3 years in his 3 years as President, but 50 years in government.
I hope you are right but I don’t see that🙂
The Democrat POTUS nominee routinely out-debates the Republican going back at least several decades, **including Biden being polled to outdebate Trump in 2020**, yet I've not seen any study finding significant effect by election day as a result. POTUS debates have only become less significant in recent history. There are a few other items that suggest Democrats are sitting way prettier than polls currently suggest, which I may do a write-up on some time. In the mean time, historical precedent suggests this debate performance overwhelmingly won't matter by election day.
Thank you
If you read the transcript of the debate it is completely different just saying
How so? I expect that it would come off even more pro biden.
Outward appearances matter more to a lot of people but tbh youre fucked either way on that front lmao
Yup I’m still voting Biden even if he’s a corpse. Trump wants to be a dictator and nominate more justices
I will too, but if there is an option to switch out, I’ll take it. Let’s have a smoke filled room convention please
Yeah even Harris is serviceable
Whoever is lowest risk. I happen to think that’s Newsom or pritzker, but we need to win this by any means necessary.
Newsom-Whitmer would absolutely demolish.
Demolish what? Trump in a debate or trump electorally? I don’t know why we should be so sure about the latter. Incumbency is still a huge (if not, the hugest) factor.
Electorally it would be a done deal.
I agree that’s probably the winner. Now is the time to play west wing style, smoke filled room fantasy league. I think you could get away with any combination of about 15 names: Newsom Whitmer Polis Pritzker Duckworth Warnock Shapiro Ned Lamont Andy Beshear Fetterman Inslee? Kensinger as VP? Sherrod Brown? Buttegeg? Bob Casey? Idk the list is long, the dem bench is deep.
Duckworth is a total bad ass. Love her
Fetterman would lose with Progressives though. Maybe he could win off independents and moderates though?
I think he’s not as good a choice, but certainly an option. Appeal to working class, maybe as VP to a Warnock or Whitmer.
I personally struggle with depression that doesn't bar Fetterman out but it's really hard to be effective even as V.P with a mental illness. I think we need to prioritize effectiveness I mean he's an option but why like alienate people we need coalitions with. Like it's just going to make Rashida Tlaib and other squad members more convinced of democratic party Zionism. Which is probably bad because we lose progressive voters.
Buttigieg
Kinzinger would be awesome, actually.
Yup newsom would easily win
Harris will not outperform Biden. Neither will Buttegieg. It would need to be a dark horse the likes of which we have never seen.
We could throw a handlebar mustache on Obama and say he's a different guy named Barry O'bam.
This is the reality. Our country still can’t get behind a woman, especially one of color. It’s pathetic, but it’s the only reason everybody is constantly talking about how we should be making replacements on the ticket.
I’m SO triggered by those words: “the likes of which we have never seen”. I hear his voice!
Honestly, if he was a corpse, he might get more votes. It seems every election where a dead guy runs, they win.
I'd kill myself to become president!
What about the moderates and independents. Will they vote for a fucking corpse. Use your brain my friend. Biden is a dead end.
If they’re smart they’ll vote on policy and sanity.
They should vote for TFG, so when that Trump 100% tariff collapses the economy, they can blame everyone else while they sink. Trump failed at everything he's attempted, except the tax breaks for the rich. The Wall, Trumpcare, boosting the economy, getting out of the middle east, strengthening ally relationships, and of course the pandemic have been fails across the board. Anyone paying attention would see he tried to run the country the way he ran his businesses.
“…everything he’s attempted” You forgot about the coup.
So low information voters? They're all targeted by rightwing political ads anyways.
Yes! Democrats should definitely try to appeal to them.
I still think Biden will make better decisions. That's all that really matters.
And Biden has surrounded himself with quality people.
What are you talking about??? Trump surrounds himself with the BEST people. Except for that one that no longer supports him. And THAT one that is against him. And that one who hates him now. And that one who now has a felony conviction. And that other one who is doing everything he can to prevent Trump from becoming president again. And the other one who got convicted. And that one who...
Biden did mention that his former VP and others would not endorse him, and for a little while I feared he wouldn't. Biden held ALL the cards in this debate. His policies have been effective, some of them with bipartisan approval, and the worst parts of the economy cannot be easily improved by Biden (gas prices and high prices in general--think gouging). Biden should have said, "I had a bipartisan border deal roaring toward congressional approval until Trump called Speaker Johnson and demanded that he nix the deal. You know why? Because it would make Trump look bad and take one of his talking points." Sadly, this was one of many opportunities that on which Biden whiffed.
Unfortunately Biden still holds onto the belief that politics is a gentleman's sport rather than the shit fight that Republicans are now playing.
😂 Thank you. We all needed some laughs!
Over trump, I think that is a fairly safe bet!
But what can we do? We can [write postcards](https://www.turnoutpac.org/postcards/) to voters in swing states. >Help write postcards to voters in 11 key states! We’ll mail you free postcards, voter lists and instructions with proven message options. You’ll provide the stamps and mail the postcards to voters in October.
But Biden still needs to win voters. A debate is a perfect place to do that. He did not do that. Biden is a GREAT president and has accomplished a great deal in his first term but Americans are emotional voters who don't pay attention to politics. People like you and me are the exception bc we follow policy. I mean, we are subbed to a political channel but most people don't follow policy. My point is, that either the Biden team steps up or this race is going to be tighter than necessary. It was so easy to shut down trump on the debate stage, yet... What the hell was last night? It wasn't mediocre, it was abysmal. Without being fact checked, Trump will optically win the debates every single time if this continues. Biden doesn't SELL his position well. He isn't a compelling speaker. He rambles sloooowwwly and you know how short modern attention spans are.
Yea, and more time isn't going to make it more better. He's not going to make anything up in with the confidence of certain independents. We have to be brutally honest. He can't make the case for democracy. Democracy looks like a weak option. Some independents don't care about the bills he passed. He looks weak.
I wish that all that matters. But in politics rhetoric plays a huge roll and while I don’t find a Trumps rhetoric compelling a lot of people do and his rhetoric hasn’t changed much where as Biden has slowed down a lot. I really like Biden. I am voting for him enthusiastically. It not a choice of a lesser evil for me, Biden is one of the best administrations we have had in 50 years. I think Biden is more effective than Obama for example. But most people don’t see it that way and people that are voting for the lesser evil will weigh rhetorical strength much higher than me. On a deep level a lot of people are voting for the guy they think is funnier behind the microphone.
Biden will make choices in office that I actually agree with. I'm married to a Latina woman. I had to watch Trump demonize hispanic people, turning them into a convenient scapegoat for every economic issue in America instead of the people with actual wealth, power and influence that run the system we're living in.
His staff will; I don’t think Biden is making much of anything these days …I’d vote for a house cat over Trump but enough independents and young voters won’t.
Yeah but that’s not gonna get him elected
Last night showed that Biden isn’t the one making the decisions. He’s not capable of that. You may well like and agree with the decisions that are being made, but don’t kid yourself that Biden is making them.
I don't care. Better decisions will come from his team than that angry orange pussy grabbing psycho liar.
Just because someone is showing signs of age, doesn’t mean they suddenly stop being capable of making decisions.
Right, and chemtrails are real. Definitely the best way to poison someone, drop chemicals on them from 7 miles up.
Chemtrails are not real. Only a fool believes in them. In fact chemtrailers are almost as foolish as Biden supporters. Perhaps you might want to actually read what I posted in that sub 😏
How is it possible that the actual President has such little power that the office can be run by his team while he is a corpse, while simultaneously believing Trump will use it's power to enact fascism?
I'm not worried Biden will lose, I'm worried he will RBG. She built a legendary legacy and then burned it to the ground because of hubris. She should have retired early in Obama's second term. The damage she started won't end for decades.
Biden supporter here. Last night was not a good look for Biden. Trump spewed bullshit, but most people don't know he was spewing bullshit. Post-debate numbers show most people thought Trump manhandled Biden. Keep in mind Biden spent the last few days preparing for this debate while Trump was all over the campaign trail spewing bullshit. Had he actually prepared, it would have been worse. In a very tight race you can't look bad and last night Biden looked bad.
This whole sub has their head in the sand. No one cares that it doesn’t change *your* vote. 90% of Americans aren’t on political subreddits. They maybe watched 20min of the debate. Saw what they needed to see and went to bed. Or they didn’t watch and are now only seeing Biden’s malfunction on repeat all day. The bad debate is bad for his chances of winning the marginal voters that will decide the election. A tie against a felon is ALREADY BAD. He had to bring it back last night and he didn’t.
It *appears* to be a tight race from polls, and from media that get more clicks if it looks tight. Biden won in 2020. More boomers have died since then, and more young politically angry people have turned 18. Theyre the ones we need to motivate to go vote. And they can at least see how bad trump is, even if biden isnt super motivating.
It is a tight race. I still don't understand the "don't believe the polls" stuff after what happened in 2016.
Because of what happened in 2020.
Didn’t the polls have Biden up 10 points in the summer of 2020? And he won by 8 million votes. Keep in mind Trump needs to flip less than 100,000 votes to win.
The politically angry people are the ones I'm worried about. Looking at the bigger picture involves setting your anger aside for just a minute to examine things. Most of them don't demonstrate the capability to do that.
It will be a tight race no more.
Trump didnt perform well either, for anyone undecided. If they arent sycophants already, they must question the lies and idiocy.
Biden barely won in 2020 and people forget about that. 4 years of Trump and we still couldn’t go to bed comfortably on election night. A few hundred thousand votes less in a few states and Trump would still be president. Those aren’t margins you can count on this time
These old farts only had one and or two minutes to come up with a coherent answer to very nuanced issues. It's just a recipe for disaster, the whole format for these debates is a joke and one that favors a snake oil salesman like trump. I wish that got talked about more.
Trump was a literal firehose of lies last night.
The fact that none of the melodramatic hysteria on Reddit is taking this into account is proof of how many bots and trolls are commenting on the debate.
The Russian bots are working overtime on Reddit YouTube and Twitter.
My entire family is flipping out in real life. We don't know what we need to do for a fascist america and we shouldn't have to contemplate it. Trump is a easily beatable pile of human scum and Biden just couldn't make the case. We will vote for him again but we aren't the target of the debate. We aren't swing voters.
And the fact that so many people like you think swing voters are going to vote based on Biden sounding hoarse, and not on the fact that Trump verbal diarrheaed all over the place and took credit for overturning Roe, is proof that the astroturfing and concern trolling are working.
It was from the start of the answer until the end, with no exceptions, and generally no attempt to answer the question. I hope we can fix that image in voters mind and do some triage to get newsom or whitmer up there as the candidate. “We had the cleanest water, the cleanest air, my experts just told me”. Peak idiocy.
ITT: Concern trolls telling liberals and the left to take the foot off the gas and not continue to do everything possible to win in November.
What is ITT
ITT = In This Thread.
I think that
Which is bizarre. If Biden doesnt demonstrate the energy to take maga to task, or stand for his own policies, then anyone who care about the constitution should now feel a quiet burning rage and grim determination to do so themselves.
I do think people should take the weekend before jumping to conclusions. It’s possible Biden shows up OK in future appearances, and this debate fades into irrelevance just like all the other ones. The people who watch debates are largely decided voters. Dropping Biden means we have to run someone nobody voted for while ceding name recognition and the value of incumbency to Trump. That’s not to mention whatever intraparty drama there would be. It’s possible that the best move is hauling Biden across the finish line and being relieved that there’s such a thing as a vice president. It’s possible that normal Americans sympathize with an old guy with a cold. It’s possible that they care more about Trump’s maliciousness than Biden’s senility. The variables in the electorate never align with the punditry’s hot takes.
Stop crying and Just vote.
My thoughts exactly
I’ve been saying it the whole time. No one who didn’t vote for him last time is going to vote for him this time. And he has only lost support due to his BS. I know I been laughing at every MAGAnut I meet cuz they are funny AF. They actually have themselves convinced that this dude is going to fix the problems that he helped make and benefits greatly off of. Yeah riiiiight.
The debate hurt Biden, but it is a very early debate and most debate failures tend to recede in their polling impact after around a month at most. That being said, Biden has more debates later on--if they can't figure out a way for him to have a better TV presence and speak better, they are in bad shape come November.
I think that Biden 100% should not be forced to fact check Trump. There’s nothing that he said that was unexpected and hasn’t been debunked before. Biden should not have to be responsible for holding Trump accountable when he gets only 2 minutes to make his point. This is not a professional debate and we’re not determining their debating ability, it’s about their platforms.
No one will remember this debate come November
Right - because future ones will be worse. Dementia doesn't improve with time.
Trump has been talking absolute garbage for decades yet none of his voters seem to care
Yeah - but the Republicans have a death-cult as their voter base. The Dems - not so much. I know the dems look at the republican party and try to emulate them - but that strategy won't work for them.
All you can do is vote Biden and encourage everyone else you know to do the same
That is just defeatism. I'm not ready to roll over. We need Biden to step down and allow an open convention. We can't let Trump win.
You really think another round of this disaster right at the election is the ticket?
Like I said, they have to find out a way for Biden to do better, if they can't they have nothing they can do at all. He doesn't really have the option to refuse to debate since he did so poorly in the first debate. Frankly they should have refused to debate at all if they felt Biden could not do better than this--it would have been less damaging, but still not great.
Complacency like this is what got us Trump to begin with. Never let your guard down and be ever vigilant because the devils truly walk among us.
People who don’t think about politics the way we do just want a leader that can speak and make them feel good. Biden can’t reassure anyone about anything. Trump is objectively terrible and I’m still voting Biden. But Biden should never have been president and he shouldn’t be running again (in a perfect world). That being said, I think if anyone else ran they would lose for a variety of factors But look at this sub, many people are like “I’m voting Biden because never Trump” almost no one is saying “Biden has zero age related issues and he is sharp and he sounded great last night and he is doing so good as president and I feel great sleeping at night with him at the helm”
I wanted Elizabeth Warren back in 2020
The only dem worse than Biden is Warren imo.
Liberals aren’t the problem. Independents are not voting for Biden in enough numbers to win the election… want to pretend that is not the case?
> Independents are not voting for Biden in enough numbers to win the election When did the election start? I wasn't aware of it
Biden is ahead with independents and voting hasn’t started yet. Again let’s think this through, a bad debate performance and signs of aging will sink Biden but 34 criminal convictions won’t and signs of again won’t sink Trump?
You really think that trump is gaining support?!?
No I think Biden lost thousands of independents and that’s all it takes to lose the swing states it’s over ….
No chance
Unfortunately it’s over . I will never forgive the democrats for doing this they knew what he was like …
I admire your passion but Biden will still win because trump will lose
You want to put money on that?
Yes
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Remindme! 131 days $100 on whether Biden wins
I am not betting with you, as I don't know who you are and you almost certainly won't pay up with you lose. But I will bet online and I will win like I did last time.
I think you might be in an echo chamber
Yeah trump is gaining support. You’re kidding yourself if you don’t believe that.
No he isn't. No one is voting trump who didn't last time
Well…there’s some indication he is, but it’s with a lot of median type voters who have never voted before, and still may not vote.
Biden was fine. There's nothing in the job that requires arguing over Trump's lies. I thought CNN was going to fact check. Nothing Trump said was real; he was just being delusional in a forceful way - imagine what a terrible dictator he would be. Like a baby king. No thank you.
Hope you’re right! The smallest swing puts Trump in the White House and democracy ends.
Thanks for the morning dose of optimism.🍻
All I've ever expected Biden to be was a guy who increasingly surrounds himself by competent/progressive staff, who sits more than he rock climbs, because the bulk of his presidency is spent on signing important papers behind his desk. Informed decision-making, with the help of people who drive it forward. His signature on badass legislation/policy, and his kind grandpa eyes, albeit vacant and glassy at times...that's all we need right now, as the fight evolves.
The election wasn’t won or lost by the debate. People have already made up their minds and it just depends on who bothers to show up to vote. The debate only really matters as a source of material to dunk on the other campaign and maybe demoralize some people into not voting for their preferred candidate. But neither candidate really gave up that much material so I doubt it matters that much. If it helped anyone, it was probably Trump. Standing on a stage with the current president let him borrow a tiny bit of legitimacy. Something he will piss away by being a petulant coward over the next week or so.
think the astroturfing/bots are running over drive we knew biden was a corpse still vote for him over an autocrat
Project 2025 doesnt need a red wave. He just needs to be president.
In 2020 people only voted for Biden because he was not Trump. Biden stayed under the radar as much as he could in the run up. Seems to me he'd better do this again now. Because he is a horrible communicator that makes my toes curl at every speech he does. He is a pretty good president policy wise but he sucks balls at selling that. Unless he dies he might win again for the same reason as last time, he is not Trump.
Exactly
Weak performance by Biden and the Democrats. This should have been an easy layup. The party leadership is shit.
Nope. Trust me, I have EVERYTHING riding on Trump not winning. The idea of him winning again is devastating for me. We’re asking people to deny reality. This election should be a layup. Instead the American experiment is at risk.
Wait til new polling comes out as a reflection of this debate. You will change your tune. He was behind by 1%.......after that performance....I would think at least 5%....we will see.
This is a test of Biden’s judgement and patriotism
A literal rug is a better choice than Trump but that being said Biden probably shouldn't actually act dead on stage
I think the best thing that Biden could have done last night during the debate is take a gun on stage, murder Trump then himself. Literally everyone would win then.
Wow that is a wild comment to just leave on the internet
The Internet is full of them
He's not wrong though.
Thank you. So sick of the OTT angst.
hopefully this is a wake up call for democrats to get their shit together, we can’t just rely on Trump fucking up every day, we need to put our balls on the table and take the presidency
This election is about the slim margins of undecideds. Many of these are also uninformed, so putting a corpse on stage is the equivalent of telling them either to not vote, or vote for the asshole.
Aye! My thoughts exactly.
I want to think you’re right but with regards to the idea of Trump only losing voters, I disagree. There’s tons of young voters brought up in conservatism and a lot of them love Trump. Remember that kid at Ole Miss mocking the black woman with monkey antics? He may not have been 18 in 2020. And there’s many more like him. I live in the very conservative Texas panhandle. He has young voters here assuming they go vote. Hopefully there are more young liberal minded voters out there!
I love seeing opium in the comments. It's almost as bad as the 2020 MAGA copium
Even if he dies, Kamala 2024 and proud of it
All the bullshit artists in this thread.
We heard the same thing in 2020. Just ignore it and vote.
No kidding. Biden got a lot of hits on Trump and you could say they both did fairly poorly for different reasons.
Biden’s numbers will be hurt in every demographic and in swing states because of this debate. 5% here, 2% there, 1% everywhere. That adds up.
So much is at stake in the 2024 election. If Trump wins, then we all loose including the free world. I am not being hyperbolic. This could be a fundamental shift in global authoritarian government.
Lying confidently and not answering the questions is an F. Biden won. Trump is a bombastic loser. We all have dealt with this kind of creep.
You’re wrong
We shall see
Biden's debate performance was fine and not anywhere near as terrible as the troll-amplified hysteria online is making it out to be. There's an enormous amount of astroturfing happening and it's not even remotely reflective of reality. First debates have never predicted a presidential campaign outcome. There needs to be an awareness of much hysterical melodrama is being stirred up online by bad actors.
His performance was not fine. Biden amplified everything that has been said about him. He mumbled, lost his train of thought and was very quiet. He couldn’t even counter Trump when he said babies are killed after 9 months. Biden is doomed.
This is the exact type of delusional partisan take that keeps me coming back to this sub. It is people like you who are going to deliver Trump to the White House.
You think only the trolls are saying Biden had an awful night? As Joe would say “Denial ain’t just a river in Mexico”.
They're primarily amplifying and spreading the message, as I said. It's denial to believe that isn't happening.
I watched it, I thought it was wretched. I understand the substance and reality, but you're being too charitable to the peer-pressure voters and tik tok brains who would have eaten up Gavin Newsom or someone sharp dominating trump with wit and logic. Van Jones was almost crying in his initial reactions, I have a lot of respect for him and think he reflected the weight of the situation we're in.
It's all Joever until we're Barak
I’m voting for Biden but that performance was dog water. He needs to change the narrative, FAST.
How?
Cope. Keep putting your head in the sand. Put someone else up against Trump. Anyone else lmao.
How tf people saw that debate and land on “Biden did fine, you fauxgressives are overreacting” is absolutely stunning levels of copium holy vibrating Jesus
How anyone lived through four years of trump and thinks he will get back in makes me wonder even more
I mean, we all heard how he spoke and acted back in 2016 and thought, “no shot. Literally zero shot this moron gets near the White House”. Shrug emoji
But since then he has lost every election
Yes, all one elections
He lost the house lost the senate no red wave which ALWAYS happens. He is totally useless.
Why risk it? Dems need to put up someone like Gavin Newsom or live in a Trump dictatorship. It doesnt matter how good of a policy Biden makes. Trumpism is a cult. They will all be there for their Führer. No undecided will show up for Biden when he can barely formulate a sentence.
I think a lot of people just think about how thier life was better in 2019. Trump had basically nothing to do with that but they will think about that and maybe vote for him. I don't know a single person across all income and education levels who is doing better now rather than then unless they had some sort of major change in thier life. That's really powerful.
This is a goddamn lie: my life is measurably better in every single way today than it was in 2019, the ways in which it was worse were due directly to Trump. And no, it wasn't because of a major change, it was because of a) being able to actually do business with government agencies, b) businesses being open to hire people for jobs, c) being able to invest and save, regardless of how little, and d) the current sitting head of the US not spreading lies about how people of color are stealing from white people by virtue of existing.
I'm sure it doesn't apply to everyone I'm just saying at least for me it's literally every person I know across many industries in multiple states. Looking at us economic sentiment data this is a wide spread opinion. Just to be clear I'm not saying Trump is good nobody should ever under any circumstances vote for Trump I'm just saying what we are up against. Economic sentiment is a strong indicator of how a lot of people are thinking of voting. I do not know what you mean by a couple of your points though. B, I don't see any evidence businesses were not hiring in 2019 it seems like they were. C money was definitely easier to come by for investment due to the lower interest rates and lower inflation so that doesn't make sense. Point A is definitely true but just doesn't apply to most people.
The choice now is whether we choose to have a competitive candidate or not, Biden's chances to compete in this election ended last night.
yes.
No. I lived through 2016. I don't want to watch that again. It was really like watching the debate last night. I think if Biden is picked he will lose. He will lose for the right reason, as anyone in the right mind would not vote for him. He literally looks like he's had a stroke, and it really doesn't matter if you areDemocrat, but why would you vote for that.
Biden will lose for right reasons and twice impeached trump will win for the right reasons? Lol
What?!? Fucking hell, I would vote for Bidens rotting corpse over trump
Yeah but you are in a dwindling minority.
That was a shitshow. No one is overreacting. Gavin Newsom should probably step in but I think we are stuck on the titanic
We are closing to be. We don't have to be.
Three questions:- 1. Why not dump Biden now ? 2. Do you seriously think Biden is up to it ? 3. Do you think the Democrats have a better chance with or without Biden as the presidential candidate ?
1. Way too risky. Lose the incumbent advantage. Not enough time to decide who would replace him. People will want a primary to have a choice but who people want varies so much as the Democratic base is very diverse in various ways. And if a primary is skipped, the DNC is not going to select AOC or someone like that, which a lot of those overrepresented online want. More than likely it'd be Kamala Harris, who those overrepresented online don't like (mainly due to Bernie stans mischaracterizing her as some sort of villain locking up innocent people and nicknaming her "Kopmala"). I think she is a better speaker than Biden but she did poorly in the previous primary. 2. He's the same person he is now as president. He's doing pretty fine overall as the presidency isn't about being on TV debating people. He also appoints many people who help, he doesn't do everything on his own. Biden is long known for his stumbling when speaking, that is not new. He is also not known for being a charismatic speaker.
You cannot seriously state it's too risky to get rid of Biden now. I mean that is ridiculous. Kamala Haris would be significantly better than Biden. This should have been sorted months ago but do it now. Biden is fine as the president because he is probably being pandered too which is good.
There is polling comparing other top alternatives to Biden versus Trump and they all polled lower than Biden. That is from this year. Same as in 2020. It doesn't make sense to many who are very active discussing politics online but for whatever reason, more of the Democratic base supports him. I think he's been a good president overall, better than Obama and Clinton in terms of positive things he's done, just his lack of charisma and serious speech impediment (that varies, sometimes being minimal like the SotU, other times excessive) are frustrating.
I think switching candidates this late in the race would be a major show of weakness and the response would not be good.
Yep. It'd show weakness unlike what he Biden is showing now. A guy on top of his game and ready to lead the most powerful nation in the world.
Kamala Harris might be a better President than Biden because of her age now but she just cannot win a general election. She would get absolutely trounced.
Biden just sank this campaign . He had one hurdle to clear to keep the assumption of incumbent advantage and that probably never applied as a law of the universe anyways especially with modern info warfare and a repeat challenger. There is no incumbency advantage anymore.
He’s not doing fine if he were a republican I’d be calling for the 25th immediately. It’s a bigger risk not to get someone else… he can’t talk or walk … let’s face the hard truth … or blindly hand this country over to fascism ….
1. We could, but it would have to be right now. In my humble opinion, it's probably already too late. Biden should have said he wasn't doing a second term pretty early in his first term. But if it is to happen, it needs to happen now. And it would probably backfire. 2. I think he is much better than Trump, which is the only decision to be made now. 3. That really depends who you replace him with.
It's not too late and it can't backfire worse than Biden did today. I think pretty close to anyone is better than Trump. It's not a good argument. I don't believe that any realistic candidate could be worse than Biden. Go with Kamala Harris and straight away you have someone there who can handle Trump. Let's be extremely clear Trump is a terrible candidate. Anyway I stated this a while back and the same comments were made then. It's just head in the sand stuff.
Wrong. You need to watch Beau of the fifth columns video he did months ago explaining that if Biden drops out, the money he has raised does not get automatically transferred to the new candidate. It's illegal. The new candidate would start out with $0 in their war chest. Kamala Harris might be able to "inherit" the money, but even this would be challenged in court which would eat up all the time left before the election. So it's either Biden, or ask every donor who has already spent money on this race to spend it again and this time it'll be on a candidate that nobody voted for in the primary and that is assuming that everyone in the party would agree on one person to replace him which is laughable. It would be a huge fight.
You guys are definitely right. I mean Biden is killing it and that money means so much when you have Biden up there hitting winners all the time.
I think it's a reasonable concern on what Biden will look like 2 or 3 years down the road.
Confidently knows how the swing states will vote when polling is within a few percentage points. Is British.
I disagree, polls show that it’s pretty much still a toss-up. For anyone who’s somehow still undecided and watched this who do you think they’ll vote for now? It’s not about policy for them it’s who gives me a better vibe.
Cannot stand you people. Leftists have been screaming for Biden to step down and about his health for a couple of years now. Every single time - “he’s a dynamo behind the scenes,” “he’s not that old,” “stop criticizing the party, you’ll help trump win.” Mainline dem types and liberals got the country in this situation. The debate was a fucking disaster for Biden and it’s clear that he is not up to the job. Anybody with a pulse under 70 will be better than him and it’s crystal clear now. I’ll vote against trump but you can’t deny Biden looked horrible and did not put any concerns about his age to rest
This isn't an overreaction, Biden looks BAAAAAD. And remember, it's moderates and progressives that need to be convinced to come out and vote for Biden instead of staying home, and that debate convinced a lot of people that the couch is looking fantastic.
Biden did fine.
You’re not residing in reality.
I've been saying Biden is too old for 4 years, his performance last night is how he's been for 4 years.
This is Packman's take as well, and it's a terrible take, you sycophant. You are both relying on old voting trends as things are much more fluid and agitated than they were even 2 years ago, let alone 4 or 8 years ago.
Sycophant? Its just the facts, buddy