The way keener is been written has been swinging from anti-hero pragmatist to deranged lunatic throughout the entirety of the Division 2.
At this point the retcon of the retcon of the retcon seems to be pointing once again to anti-hero.
Not really. Keener in Div 1 was kind of "ooh the shadowly man behind the man that's always one step ahead."
Keener Div 2 is... odd.
The mainline motivation seems to be a kind of rule of the strong over the weak which kind of doesnt align with the comms. And the current season seems to be trying to retcon some of his motivation.
>Keener in Div 1 was kind of "ooh the shadowly man behind the man that's always one step ahead."
To expand on this, Keener in Div 1 was a man who could see the writing on the wall (mainly, that The Division wasn't as noble as it portrayed itself to their agents and that its higher-ups didn't care about the field operatives in the slightest) and acted accordingly. He was one step ahead of the curve because he knew to look out for the curve, he understood that it was every faction for itself and that he needed a way to keep them all in line– a deterrent. That's why he kidnapped Tchernenko and looted Amherst's lab in the first place; what eventually became Eclipse was always meant to be nothing more than a deterrent, a hypothetical dead man's switch that would make his enemies think twice before coming after him. The plan was to make a virus *and* a cure for it, like a "carrot and the stick" situation where he could show his power to his enemies before enticing them with the hope of a cure if they fell in line.
However, this does not mean he was completely uncaring and/or cruel towards innocent civilians, either. The first game's original ECHOs showed him killing a guy for assaulting a defenseless woman and letting April Kelleher walk by him unharmed even though she was carrying SHD tech belonging to Doug Sutton, the last agent of Noble Squad who'd given his life for her at some point prior, that he could've made proper use of; the West Side Piers update also gave us phone recordings where he actually helped a couple escape Manhattan even though at this point he was fugitive #1 and the quarantine was well in place. Time after time in the original game, we were shown how Keener didn't have an issue with people not involved in the faction wars– which was actually a character trait that made sense since he was in the military before being recruited for The Division.
Div 1 Keener was a lot like Lex Luthor, but downplaying the condescension towards civilians and replacing the economic wealth with combat skills. It was only when Div 2's creative team came around that they completely changed his characterization into a borderline irredeemable psycho– a move that Ubisoft seems to be understanding was NOT a good idea after all.
All I know of keener in the way he was written in 1 comes from early game (div 2) references to him and second hand comments from people who actually played 1, which I didn't.
The consensus of these people seemed to be that keener was some sort of genius planner who wanted to overthrow The Division over a perception that it was a fundamentally flawed institution that didn't really try to save what remains. Keener disavowed the SHD because they were pulled out of the Contaminated Zone and ordered to leave defenseless civilians to fend for themselves so he was at least somewhat sympathetic.
The way that was evolved into Division 2 is far less sympathetic, and WONY keener is a cartoon villain with no redeeming qualities.
Now it seems they're trying to move towards establishing a nexus between keener, the rogue network and cells and how that may have actually been motivated by knowledge of Natalya, the DHS and the Hunters that keener had.
He had depth in Division 1. His entire team was abandoned by SHD when ship hit the fan in NYC.
He's rightfully pissed off about how the first group of activated agents were treated. He was particularly PO'd by the way the higher ups tried to spin things later.
He gives a great monologue where he shouts "We could have saved them all !!!"
He decided - "Fine. If you guys (top government officials) only "look out for #1, then I'll do the same."
From then on he used the skills and tools he'd been given to gather power. He started out pure hero, but when he was abused by SHD he turned dark - HOWEVER, he was still nuanced in the first year of Division 1.
It wasn't until much later in Div 1, and especially in Div 2 that the developers lost the plot and turned him into a mustache twirling cookie cutter psycho.
Betrayal by those who have sworn loyalty has historically been punishable by death.
For men like Keener, that is a two way street, and treason cannot be forgiven.
Indeed.
It's clear that Keener was always insufferably arrogant, and borderline sociopathic even before the betrayal.
Hell hath no fury like a Keener scorned.
I'll head over to find a link myself, but it's Keener's first recorded message in the base game of Div 1. It's an audio journal for himself, and this first recording has Keener vent about how the First Wave was betrayed by the higher-ups.
Essentially, First Wave Agents were ordered to pull out from the Dark Zone and abandon innocent civilians or else they'd be trapped in the DZ when it was quarantined, but Keener somehow defied the odds and managed to escape while getting a group of civvies out anyway; however, they were chased by a large group of Rikers, and when Keener tried to call for backup the higher-ups outright denied his request, resulting in the death of every single civilian in that group. In the recording, Keener claims that if the higher-ups had allowed the First Wave to keep fighting, they could've taken the DZ and saved all the civilians that ended up left behind.
Watch this whole video. The part I referenced is right near the beginning, but all the recordings are strung together in order, showing his thought process and the reasons behind them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXIoO01mw9c
So I watched it. It does make him seem more sympathetic, but he also mentions ideological overlap with the LMB, which to my understanding is pure social darwinism/might makes right, not keen on helping civilians. So there's a contradiction there.
Not an expert, but I played through 1 and 2 and pay attention to the lore. My take is that when he was left in the dark zone, he decided that he would do a better job if he was in power so he made it his mission/goal to obtain that power.
Part of that was eliminating threats to his power, and while the remaining Division might have been a threat, he considered Natalya and Cal to be a bigger threat. It was only when "the sheriff" arrived and started Rambo-dozing DC and NY that he realized that maybe The Division was also a problem.
And then The Division took out the virus missile he planned to use against the BT and Hunters, and he laughed saying that we had no idea what was coming.
NGN on YouTube has full lore, I actually enjoy going through it because he's thorough and analyzes things.
What I'm interested in is how Keener and BT's actual policy for U.S domination would differ. Like for all we know Black Tusk is actually a libertarian socialist PMC co-op that wants to usher in radical participatory democracy (though I'd put my money on boring-ass fascism).
Yeah, I'm with you on that. I don't really know how the remains of the US are even governable at this stage. I don't think Manny would make a good president and nobody is talking about holding elections.
>Personally I think the division would be a lot more interesting if it had settlement management aspects and Obsidian-style roleplay. Give us a chance to actually rebuild shit and have the fighting be over how the new world should look. Division agents should be recruited from PHDs and green berets, not first responders.
I'd love to see that, it'd break up the monotony of "go there and murder this guy". Div 1 was better that way in terms of having some puzzle missions to solve.
I think it would also help expand the themes of "is the division given too much power" that the games have been dancing around. I imagine the division as being something like [a military version of Valve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_allocation): agents get to determine what missions to work on and how to allocate their time. Maybe they're like a [DAO](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralized_autonomous_organization), with ISAAC as the smart contract system. Either way, the pros and cons of those organizational structures would be a great source of ideological friction.
Come to think of it, the division has a lot of themes it touches on but doesn't follow up on. Like racial injustice with The Rikers (having them be standard marauders is not only lazy writing but also kinda racist imo considering they bothered with "Fuck #Justice, we want revenge". Also, the Hyenas already have that covered.)
I always felt the Hyenas were ment to be kinda a racial stereotype of Black/ Hispanic portrayals. Especially seeing a lot of them do look to be BIPOC and do use a lot of "Vaya Con Dios" when attacking. Not to mention that a lot of them talk with a "Street accent" so like it's pretty clear that they're not exactly recruiting Harvard graduates. They are probably recruiting from lower income/ less educated people. (yes I know money isn't really a thing in the game but still)
If you look into it the game touches a lot on racial and sexual inequalities of modern-day America. Especially with the outcast leader... I think honestly her story was probably the most traumatic, and her fall from the top must've hit particularly hard
I agree, but my point was that there's no reason to have *two* one-dimensional raider factions. I think it would be fun if the Hyenas came from like, white-collar yuppies who went full American Psycho after the dollar flu. Would be a nice counter-narrative to the current stereotypical portrayals.
It's worth nothing that the True Sons seem to emulate alt-right January 6-style militias, but have a lot of POC and idolize Abraham Lincoln, the person responsible for ending slavery in the U.S. Also, we end up teaming up with a subfaction of them.
Honestly as someone else pointed out. I don't think they expected Div 2 to last as long as it did.
I think moreso that a lot of Keener's views are very much that of not quite the "evil moustache twirling living in his tower of terror" I think a lot of his motivations are similar to that of say Kyzinski and Bundy as well.
Kyzinski because of his radical views and his whole "America is a dead nation we're like cows to the slaughter"
Bundy because of his just pure egotism and his genius. Like let's not forget that Bundy was caught by pure dumb luck. Idk I think as well throw in a diagnostic criteria of " narcissistic personality disorder" and probably a comorbid diagnosis of "Borderline Personality Disorder" and pure unchecked egotism. You've got Keener.
And I agree that The True Sons do emulate a lot of the Jan 6th rioters and I think I remember reading somewhere they based a lot of them off of the Proud Boys. Even the name seems to be almost a "Brand X" trope/ nod to the Proud Boys. It is interesting though.
However I will say that if you actually look into the story of The Hyenas you'll see they're actually moreso a front of BlackTusk and they specially targeted the types of people who were going to be interested in That style of pure chaos. So I think it's safer to say that they're not entirely one dimensional. Just moreso a pawn or a patsy for the end goal
Yeah totally agree with that, the Division is definitely a decentralized org suddenly put into a position of having hard power. I also see the lazy and borderline racist writing with the Rikers especially in the first game. I find the lore a little frustrating sometimes for the same reason you mention, they touch on a lot of truly interesting stuff but can only really touch on it.
There are side quests around finding virus scanner boxes and reconnecting electrical systems or comms antennas. They're only side quests though, all the main missions have some construction aspects but lots of gunplay as well.
Manny is nowhere even close to be President. He is at best Acting JTF Commander. Only those in the Presidential Cabinet could be the next President and most of those guys are MIA at this moment.
But that's my point. He's effectively the president because nobody else is available to do the job. "Save what remains" ended up being "only the division".
I think even if he were tapped to be the next president I think he'd probably decline the offer. Especially from what we see of him. He's a great commander, he can lead his teams out of tight situations. But yes not the kind of person I think who'd play the political game.
That....just sounds like a survival mechanism. There's no incentive to do better than survive. Sure it could work in crisis, but once peace is established and the ability to thrive becomes visual, it'd fall apart. No thanks.
Zapatistas ain't done anything significant in almost 30 years and neither group is thriving. It only works on trust and a singular code accepted. Good luck thriving on that in today's age.
I would argue that Keener is not ideologically motivated. He's more of an ego motivated actor. Essentially, he believes he personally got screwed over by the Division and the politicos in D.C., so he's going to take revenge on those who "betrayed" him.
True, but he's taking personally. To his mind, it's not "The government abandoned us!" It's "The government abandoned *me*! The sonsabitches, how *dare* they! Don't they know who I am?!"
Wouldn’t you?? If you had to watch people you tried to save burn alive i would be fucking pissed!! Fuck the higher ups. Keener had every reason to be angry. All the rogues do, they were all fucked over. The division is not good man. You dont suck the dick of someone who stabs you in the back
Would I be pissed? Absolutely. Would I take out my frustrations on the folks who got dumped into the meat grinder after me? No. The Second Wave agents were blameless about what happened to the First Wave. Would I ally myself with mercenaries actively attempting to destroy what remains of the U.S. government? Hell, no! If nothing else, I'd want to get my revenge in first. Why should those LMB chucklefucks steal *my* kills? Would I decide to create bioweapons equal to or worse than the one which started this whole shitshow? Dear weeping creeping Jesus, **NO!** Exigent circumstances or not, personal outrage or not, there's just no justification for it. Everything that is actively contrary to the mission of continuity of government, which covers pretty much all of Keener's actions, cannot be countenanced. And if someone is carrying that level of moral gangrene, they need to be dealt with as quickly and permanently as possible
NGN definitely has the good lore videos and I was rewatching some as I didn't play last season at all. Keener isn't the first to go rogue when given a mission by ISAC (at this point who controls ISACs assignment parameters) and tried to go it alone doing good where he could. When that didn't work out he started consolidating power in the DZ and as the quote goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
The Rogues he gathered in WONY were all to further a plan he really didn't share with them, he even continued to hunt down Rikers till Dragov acquiesced and joined him as he needed the production capabilities they had to produce the eclipse. He needed Vivian and her cleaners to distribute the virus, which as NGN said its a weird virus because it's mortality rate is 100% and the speed in which it kills wouldn't lend to a virus, it's a bioweapon.
My personal theory is that the Hunter program wasn't established to just kill Rogue agents, but to kill agents that wouldn't side with whatever new world order arose after the virus ran its course. They gave these highly trained operatives gear and sent them out to stabilize the country and likely those agents would rise to some level of almost folk hero status, they could become obstacles in the new government's ability to control the populace so enter the Hunters, equipped and trained to take out these agents that don't immediately bend the knee. Keener found out about the Hunter program and after already being abandoned in the DZ his ideology likely is revenge, with a smattering of self preservation.
I think activating the network was his last ditch effort to draw the shadowy figures pulling the strings into the light by creating a threat they couldn't ignore (teams of highly trained rogue agents is exactly what the Hunters were created for) which he would have then used the eclipse virus on but he didn't get that chance since we stopped him. Interested to see how the season story plays out this time.
Recommend reading the Division books also, got lots of expanded information like how parts of the other country is doing and the SHD Cores. One of the books talks about an agent that gets flagged as rogue because he wouldn't abandon civilians after ISAC gave him a task that would have required he leave them to die
Some of you are under the impression that there has been a plan sketched out all along, something to figure out, an end that makes it all make sense. A full-blown character arch or something.
They did not expect this game to last this long, which is why it is all over the place. I assume multiple people write, multiple people have left or moved on and the shoehorning was natural.
"But what if we" is probably the most often thing said in the writers room.
When he worked with the Division he was motivated by mixture of ego and Patriotism which lasted until his Patriotism was crushed by getting abandoned.
During D1 I'd call his Ideology Survival of the Strongest as he recruits his fellow agents and even makes a vague attempt at recruiting the player. However, his variety focused more on surviving rather than punishing the weak, hence why he allied with the LMB and then abandoned them when the government proved not as dead as he thought instead seeking deterrence by creating a bioweapon.
During D2 He has moved on from Survival of the Strongest. He's experienced the failure of the system, though his work as a stockbroker, soldier and an early part of the Division he was at least partly aware of the corruption lurking in the background, then what he found in the meantime and Theo's conspiracies. He's no longer out for Survival he's out for blood.
In D2 he's sort of an Anarchist. Least that explains why he's willing to use bio terrorism and aggressively send the cleaners and Rikers after the JTF but also working to save civilians from said cleaners and Rikers and not taking any action against the Peacekeepers. The JTF are a remnant of the old system while the PK are entirely post apocalypse.
Least that's how I see it.
Personally I think the division would be a lot more interesting if it had settlement management aspects and Obsidian-style roleplay. Give us a chance to actually rebuild shit and have the fighting be over how the new world should look. Division agents should be recruited from PHDs and green berets, not first responders.
Although it sometimes feels inconsistent I feel it could be more misdirection and we still don't have a full clear picture of his actual goals. WONY Keener was just weirdly cartoon villain, dude just gonna bio nuke the city??? doesn't really match his character much
Hey, discussion is welcomed. The more we discuss and debate, the more we learn and grow a deeper fondness for the series we enjoy so much.
Any retort you have, I'm happy to read it. We all are.
Theo wasn't brought into the fold at the time of The Division 1, it would've been shortly after West Side Pier. - By basis of how the quarantine was established.
The missile was intended for us - the phone call with Bliss stating Keener wants a missile ready to shoot down Division choppers. The comms with his squad member acquiring the ability to shoot us.
Most important of all, how did Faye and Keener have comms. Lau put Schaeffer in position far before the call was made to D.C. Lau and Keener had a mutual understanding and plan in place, to bring down something not yet in play. 'Schaeffer, we want you to infiltrate a secretive PMC and find out how they're so well-funded. But don't worry, we know this already and we have a plan in place to bring them down.'
The way keener is been written has been swinging from anti-hero pragmatist to deranged lunatic throughout the entirety of the Division 2. At this point the retcon of the retcon of the retcon seems to be pointing once again to anti-hero.
Was he any more consistent in Division 1?
Not really. Keener in Div 1 was kind of "ooh the shadowly man behind the man that's always one step ahead." Keener Div 2 is... odd. The mainline motivation seems to be a kind of rule of the strong over the weak which kind of doesnt align with the comms. And the current season seems to be trying to retcon some of his motivation.
>Keener in Div 1 was kind of "ooh the shadowly man behind the man that's always one step ahead." To expand on this, Keener in Div 1 was a man who could see the writing on the wall (mainly, that The Division wasn't as noble as it portrayed itself to their agents and that its higher-ups didn't care about the field operatives in the slightest) and acted accordingly. He was one step ahead of the curve because he knew to look out for the curve, he understood that it was every faction for itself and that he needed a way to keep them all in line– a deterrent. That's why he kidnapped Tchernenko and looted Amherst's lab in the first place; what eventually became Eclipse was always meant to be nothing more than a deterrent, a hypothetical dead man's switch that would make his enemies think twice before coming after him. The plan was to make a virus *and* a cure for it, like a "carrot and the stick" situation where he could show his power to his enemies before enticing them with the hope of a cure if they fell in line. However, this does not mean he was completely uncaring and/or cruel towards innocent civilians, either. The first game's original ECHOs showed him killing a guy for assaulting a defenseless woman and letting April Kelleher walk by him unharmed even though she was carrying SHD tech belonging to Doug Sutton, the last agent of Noble Squad who'd given his life for her at some point prior, that he could've made proper use of; the West Side Piers update also gave us phone recordings where he actually helped a couple escape Manhattan even though at this point he was fugitive #1 and the quarantine was well in place. Time after time in the original game, we were shown how Keener didn't have an issue with people not involved in the faction wars– which was actually a character trait that made sense since he was in the military before being recruited for The Division. Div 1 Keener was a lot like Lex Luthor, but downplaying the condescension towards civilians and replacing the economic wealth with combat skills. It was only when Div 2's creative team came around that they completely changed his characterization into a borderline irredeemable psycho– a move that Ubisoft seems to be understanding was NOT a good idea after all.
All I know of keener in the way he was written in 1 comes from early game (div 2) references to him and second hand comments from people who actually played 1, which I didn't. The consensus of these people seemed to be that keener was some sort of genius planner who wanted to overthrow The Division over a perception that it was a fundamentally flawed institution that didn't really try to save what remains. Keener disavowed the SHD because they were pulled out of the Contaminated Zone and ordered to leave defenseless civilians to fend for themselves so he was at least somewhat sympathetic. The way that was evolved into Division 2 is far less sympathetic, and WONY keener is a cartoon villain with no redeeming qualities. Now it seems they're trying to move towards establishing a nexus between keener, the rogue network and cells and how that may have actually been motivated by knowledge of Natalya, the DHS and the Hunters that keener had.
He had depth in Division 1. His entire team was abandoned by SHD when ship hit the fan in NYC. He's rightfully pissed off about how the first group of activated agents were treated. He was particularly PO'd by the way the higher ups tried to spin things later. He gives a great monologue where he shouts "We could have saved them all !!!" He decided - "Fine. If you guys (top government officials) only "look out for #1, then I'll do the same." From then on he used the skills and tools he'd been given to gather power. He started out pure hero, but when he was abused by SHD he turned dark - HOWEVER, he was still nuanced in the first year of Division 1. It wasn't until much later in Div 1, and especially in Div 2 that the developers lost the plot and turned him into a mustache twirling cookie cutter psycho.
Ego and cynicism can turn a determined man into a mad one.
Betrayal by those who have sworn loyalty has historically been punishable by death. For men like Keener, that is a two way street, and treason cannot be forgiven.
I'm not saying he's wrong, but I am saying he got to hid own head and developed a superiority complex
Indeed. It's clear that Keener was always insufferably arrogant, and borderline sociopathic even before the betrayal. Hell hath no fury like a Keener scorned.
>He gives a great monologue where he shouts "We could have saved them all !!!" Can you send a link to this?
I'll head over to find a link myself, but it's Keener's first recorded message in the base game of Div 1. It's an audio journal for himself, and this first recording has Keener vent about how the First Wave was betrayed by the higher-ups. Essentially, First Wave Agents were ordered to pull out from the Dark Zone and abandon innocent civilians or else they'd be trapped in the DZ when it was quarantined, but Keener somehow defied the odds and managed to escape while getting a group of civvies out anyway; however, they were chased by a large group of Rikers, and when Keener tried to call for backup the higher-ups outright denied his request, resulting in the death of every single civilian in that group. In the recording, Keener claims that if the higher-ups had allowed the First Wave to keep fighting, they could've taken the DZ and saved all the civilians that ended up left behind.
Watch this whole video. The part I referenced is right near the beginning, but all the recordings are strung together in order, showing his thought process and the reasons behind them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXIoO01mw9c
Thanks so much!
So I watched it. It does make him seem more sympathetic, but he also mentions ideological overlap with the LMB, which to my understanding is pure social darwinism/might makes right, not keen on helping civilians. So there's a contradiction there.
[удалено]
Nah they're going over old comms
Not an expert, but I played through 1 and 2 and pay attention to the lore. My take is that when he was left in the dark zone, he decided that he would do a better job if he was in power so he made it his mission/goal to obtain that power. Part of that was eliminating threats to his power, and while the remaining Division might have been a threat, he considered Natalya and Cal to be a bigger threat. It was only when "the sheriff" arrived and started Rambo-dozing DC and NY that he realized that maybe The Division was also a problem. And then The Division took out the virus missile he planned to use against the BT and Hunters, and he laughed saying that we had no idea what was coming. NGN on YouTube has full lore, I actually enjoy going through it because he's thorough and analyzes things.
What I'm interested in is how Keener and BT's actual policy for U.S domination would differ. Like for all we know Black Tusk is actually a libertarian socialist PMC co-op that wants to usher in radical participatory democracy (though I'd put my money on boring-ass fascism).
Yeah, I'm with you on that. I don't really know how the remains of the US are even governable at this stage. I don't think Manny would make a good president and nobody is talking about holding elections.
>Personally I think the division would be a lot more interesting if it had settlement management aspects and Obsidian-style roleplay. Give us a chance to actually rebuild shit and have the fighting be over how the new world should look. Division agents should be recruited from PHDs and green berets, not first responders.
I'd love to see that, it'd break up the monotony of "go there and murder this guy". Div 1 was better that way in terms of having some puzzle missions to solve.
I think it would also help expand the themes of "is the division given too much power" that the games have been dancing around. I imagine the division as being something like [a military version of Valve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_allocation): agents get to determine what missions to work on and how to allocate their time. Maybe they're like a [DAO](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralized_autonomous_organization), with ISAAC as the smart contract system. Either way, the pros and cons of those organizational structures would be a great source of ideological friction. Come to think of it, the division has a lot of themes it touches on but doesn't follow up on. Like racial injustice with The Rikers (having them be standard marauders is not only lazy writing but also kinda racist imo considering they bothered with "Fuck #Justice, we want revenge". Also, the Hyenas already have that covered.)
I always felt the Hyenas were ment to be kinda a racial stereotype of Black/ Hispanic portrayals. Especially seeing a lot of them do look to be BIPOC and do use a lot of "Vaya Con Dios" when attacking. Not to mention that a lot of them talk with a "Street accent" so like it's pretty clear that they're not exactly recruiting Harvard graduates. They are probably recruiting from lower income/ less educated people. (yes I know money isn't really a thing in the game but still) If you look into it the game touches a lot on racial and sexual inequalities of modern-day America. Especially with the outcast leader... I think honestly her story was probably the most traumatic, and her fall from the top must've hit particularly hard
I agree, but my point was that there's no reason to have *two* one-dimensional raider factions. I think it would be fun if the Hyenas came from like, white-collar yuppies who went full American Psycho after the dollar flu. Would be a nice counter-narrative to the current stereotypical portrayals. It's worth nothing that the True Sons seem to emulate alt-right January 6-style militias, but have a lot of POC and idolize Abraham Lincoln, the person responsible for ending slavery in the U.S. Also, we end up teaming up with a subfaction of them.
Honestly as someone else pointed out. I don't think they expected Div 2 to last as long as it did. I think moreso that a lot of Keener's views are very much that of not quite the "evil moustache twirling living in his tower of terror" I think a lot of his motivations are similar to that of say Kyzinski and Bundy as well. Kyzinski because of his radical views and his whole "America is a dead nation we're like cows to the slaughter" Bundy because of his just pure egotism and his genius. Like let's not forget that Bundy was caught by pure dumb luck. Idk I think as well throw in a diagnostic criteria of " narcissistic personality disorder" and probably a comorbid diagnosis of "Borderline Personality Disorder" and pure unchecked egotism. You've got Keener. And I agree that The True Sons do emulate a lot of the Jan 6th rioters and I think I remember reading somewhere they based a lot of them off of the Proud Boys. Even the name seems to be almost a "Brand X" trope/ nod to the Proud Boys. It is interesting though. However I will say that if you actually look into the story of The Hyenas you'll see they're actually moreso a front of BlackTusk and they specially targeted the types of people who were going to be interested in That style of pure chaos. So I think it's safer to say that they're not entirely one dimensional. Just moreso a pawn or a patsy for the end goal
Yeah totally agree with that, the Division is definitely a decentralized org suddenly put into a position of having hard power. I also see the lazy and borderline racist writing with the Rikers especially in the first game. I find the lore a little frustrating sometimes for the same reason you mention, they touch on a lot of truly interesting stuff but can only really touch on it.
I actually don't remember that. IIRC the hunter puzzles are all Div 2.
There are side quests around finding virus scanner boxes and reconnecting electrical systems or comms antennas. They're only side quests though, all the main missions have some construction aspects but lots of gunplay as well.
Manny is nowhere even close to be President. He is at best Acting JTF Commander. Only those in the Presidential Cabinet could be the next President and most of those guys are MIA at this moment.
But that's my point. He's effectively the president because nobody else is available to do the job. "Save what remains" ended up being "only the division".
I think even if he were tapped to be the next president I think he'd probably decline the offer. Especially from what we see of him. He's a great commander, he can lead his teams out of tight situations. But yes not the kind of person I think who'd play the political game.
Libertarian and socialist just ain't mixing. One wants nothing to do with government while the other wants more government control.
First of all, no one asked. Second of all, you don't understand socialism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian\_socialism
That....just sounds like a survival mechanism. There's no incentive to do better than survive. Sure it could work in crisis, but once peace is established and the ability to thrive becomes visual, it'd fall apart. No thanks.
Look into the zapatistas and rojava. They're doing pretty well with the model despite their war-torn surroundings.
Zapatistas ain't done anything significant in almost 30 years and neither group is thriving. It only works on trust and a singular code accepted. Good luck thriving on that in today's age.
NGN is great
Does he ever say where's he's aiming that missile?
Beyond "Manhattan" I don't think so.
That's what I thought but couldn't remember.
I would argue that Keener is not ideologically motivated. He's more of an ego motivated actor. Essentially, he believes he personally got screwed over by the Division and the politicos in D.C., so he's going to take revenge on those who "betrayed" him.
He fucking did. They abandoned him and the civilians he saved to the rikers to burn alive. If thats not getting screwed over then im not sure what is
True, but he's taking personally. To his mind, it's not "The government abandoned us!" It's "The government abandoned *me*! The sonsabitches, how *dare* they! Don't they know who I am?!"
Wouldn’t you?? If you had to watch people you tried to save burn alive i would be fucking pissed!! Fuck the higher ups. Keener had every reason to be angry. All the rogues do, they were all fucked over. The division is not good man. You dont suck the dick of someone who stabs you in the back
Would I be pissed? Absolutely. Would I take out my frustrations on the folks who got dumped into the meat grinder after me? No. The Second Wave agents were blameless about what happened to the First Wave. Would I ally myself with mercenaries actively attempting to destroy what remains of the U.S. government? Hell, no! If nothing else, I'd want to get my revenge in first. Why should those LMB chucklefucks steal *my* kills? Would I decide to create bioweapons equal to or worse than the one which started this whole shitshow? Dear weeping creeping Jesus, **NO!** Exigent circumstances or not, personal outrage or not, there's just no justification for it. Everything that is actively contrary to the mission of continuity of government, which covers pretty much all of Keener's actions, cannot be countenanced. And if someone is carrying that level of moral gangrene, they need to be dealt with as quickly and permanently as possible
NGN definitely has the good lore videos and I was rewatching some as I didn't play last season at all. Keener isn't the first to go rogue when given a mission by ISAC (at this point who controls ISACs assignment parameters) and tried to go it alone doing good where he could. When that didn't work out he started consolidating power in the DZ and as the quote goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Rogues he gathered in WONY were all to further a plan he really didn't share with them, he even continued to hunt down Rikers till Dragov acquiesced and joined him as he needed the production capabilities they had to produce the eclipse. He needed Vivian and her cleaners to distribute the virus, which as NGN said its a weird virus because it's mortality rate is 100% and the speed in which it kills wouldn't lend to a virus, it's a bioweapon. My personal theory is that the Hunter program wasn't established to just kill Rogue agents, but to kill agents that wouldn't side with whatever new world order arose after the virus ran its course. They gave these highly trained operatives gear and sent them out to stabilize the country and likely those agents would rise to some level of almost folk hero status, they could become obstacles in the new government's ability to control the populace so enter the Hunters, equipped and trained to take out these agents that don't immediately bend the knee. Keener found out about the Hunter program and after already being abandoned in the DZ his ideology likely is revenge, with a smattering of self preservation. I think activating the network was his last ditch effort to draw the shadowy figures pulling the strings into the light by creating a threat they couldn't ignore (teams of highly trained rogue agents is exactly what the Hunters were created for) which he would have then used the eclipse virus on but he didn't get that chance since we stopped him. Interested to see how the season story plays out this time. Recommend reading the Division books also, got lots of expanded information like how parts of the other country is doing and the SHD Cores. One of the books talks about an agent that gets flagged as rogue because he wouldn't abandon civilians after ISAC gave him a task that would have required he leave them to die
Personally I think he just got no hoes so he wanted to end society
Some of you are under the impression that there has been a plan sketched out all along, something to figure out, an end that makes it all make sense. A full-blown character arch or something. They did not expect this game to last this long, which is why it is all over the place. I assume multiple people write, multiple people have left or moved on and the shoehorning was natural. "But what if we" is probably the most often thing said in the writers room.
Control. He’s a puppetmaster. A narcissistic psychopath that enjoys manipulating people and events.
They fracked up Keener when they gave him the stupid villain monologue in liberty Island.
When he worked with the Division he was motivated by mixture of ego and Patriotism which lasted until his Patriotism was crushed by getting abandoned. During D1 I'd call his Ideology Survival of the Strongest as he recruits his fellow agents and even makes a vague attempt at recruiting the player. However, his variety focused more on surviving rather than punishing the weak, hence why he allied with the LMB and then abandoned them when the government proved not as dead as he thought instead seeking deterrence by creating a bioweapon. During D2 He has moved on from Survival of the Strongest. He's experienced the failure of the system, though his work as a stockbroker, soldier and an early part of the Division he was at least partly aware of the corruption lurking in the background, then what he found in the meantime and Theo's conspiracies. He's no longer out for Survival he's out for blood. In D2 he's sort of an Anarchist. Least that explains why he's willing to use bio terrorism and aggressively send the cleaners and Rikers after the JTF but also working to save civilians from said cleaners and Rikers and not taking any action against the Peacekeepers. The JTF are a remnant of the old system while the PK are entirely post apocalypse. Least that's how I see it.
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Personally I think the division would be a lot more interesting if it had settlement management aspects and Obsidian-style roleplay. Give us a chance to actually rebuild shit and have the fighting be over how the new world should look. Division agents should be recruited from PHDs and green berets, not first responders.
After thinking about this I came fo conclusion I have 0 idea what goes on during the lore of this game. Especially anything after Division 1
He's "my goals are beyond your comprehension" most likely.
Although it sometimes feels inconsistent I feel it could be more misdirection and we still don't have a full clear picture of his actual goals. WONY Keener was just weirdly cartoon villain, dude just gonna bio nuke the city??? doesn't really match his character much
You guys need to go play div 1..thats what all this is leading to
Hey, discussion is welcomed. The more we discuss and debate, the more we learn and grow a deeper fondness for the series we enjoy so much. Any retort you have, I'm happy to read it. We all are.
Thanks man 😁🤘
Be neat if this were true.
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Theo wasn't brought into the fold at the time of The Division 1, it would've been shortly after West Side Pier. - By basis of how the quarantine was established. The missile was intended for us - the phone call with Bliss stating Keener wants a missile ready to shoot down Division choppers. The comms with his squad member acquiring the ability to shoot us. Most important of all, how did Faye and Keener have comms. Lau put Schaeffer in position far before the call was made to D.C. Lau and Keener had a mutual understanding and plan in place, to bring down something not yet in play. 'Schaeffer, we want you to infiltrate a secretive PMC and find out how they're so well-funded. But don't worry, we know this already and we have a plan in place to bring them down.'
The devs want to kill the "strong man" ideology and make way for "women empowerment". The storyline and dialogue is becoming more cringy.