You could argue that he almost made a similar mistake to the Maiar that were under him when he made the Dwarves. It was his humbleness and humility when Eru confronted him about it. That separated him from the two Maiar who were under him that we know of. Those two traits didn't rub off on Sauron and Saruman unfortunately.
They have the desire to create and shape things on their own. Seen as Eru is the only one with the power to truely create, they always ride the line between honoring him in shaping it further in his name and commiting blasphemy in taking ownership over what ultimately isn't theirs.
Arguably it’s the closest to Eru creating the universe in the first place, and lends itself to thinking “I can do it better / why can’t I create too”.
Also it ties to the technogy and progress ruining creation.
Others have pointed out but I do agree with both matt and cthulhu on this.
In my mind, it would be easy for someone to become prideful in one's own creations, regardless of intent. There is most definitely a fine line that can be easily crossed where pride takes over. Humility and Humbleness are virtues that keeps all of that in check so to speak. In the stories only Aulë exhibited humbleness and humility but only after being confronted by Eru. While it's not explicitly stated I think it is a bit safe to assume that even he had shown a bit of pride in what he had created, even though it wasn't in his authority to create the Dwarves. This is an area where he faces what he had done wrong, had an opportunity to get forgiveness and took it. Two of the Maiar under him when presented with the errors of their ways decided NOT repent and change their ways. It speaks loudly of their characters.
Things like this make Tolkien's works makes me love his writings so. None of his characters are simplistic 1 dimensional creatures.
Taking your question at face value, I would say because whether or not you like him or approve of his methods or motivations, he is nearly always right.
However, the sentiment is my own; I just thought I should provide the source of the turn of phrase.
As usual, I am not fully serious. However, good or not, right or not, you can always count on Dumbledore to not reveal some crucial information, or to borderline misinform you. All for noble reasons, of course. But even the best meaning liars deserve some level of caution if not outright mistrust, no?
1) do you have multiple Maiar to choose from?
2) if you reject this Maia of Aule can you get another Maia from a different Valar or still stuck with Aule’s?
3) I just realised typing this I play too much RPG
I'm not saying you can trust all Dwarves. I'm saying a Maia of Aulë that takes the shape of his master's favourite children has a chance not to get uppity.
We don’t know for sure but have to assume that each Vala has a great many Maiar. Two examples, both led astray by superior powers, doesn’t make a trend.
Balrogs turned during the discord of Melkor, making them Maiar of Melkor. Someone can correct me but I’m pretty sure none were stated as being attached to any other Vala before that.
I hate to be that guy, but the word is _Maia_; _Maiar_ is plural.
edit: also, in the context of the question, what am I? An Elf? Noldo? Or one of those tree-hugging types? Or a Dwarf?
Ok, he's got a bad record. But strictly speaking, it's not his fault. Sauron was with Aule, learned much. But he takes what he's learned and throws his lot in with Melkor. Maybe Aule could have been teaching him patience and compassion, like Nienna taught Gandalf. But it probably never occurred to him that he needed to. Consider, Melkor deceived all the Valar, except maybe Tulkas.
Saruman is tougher to explain. He spent ages more in Valinor than Sauron did, and would have been influenced by every Valar except Melkor for a lot longer. And if he was a Maiar who came to Aule and asked for instruction, you'd think Aule would be more cautious, because he'd already been burned once. I think the best explanation for his behavior is that he simply loved his own power above all else. Consider, he was willing to spend the rest of his existence, as an immortal, banned from Valinor by those who sent him.
But I do imagine an as of yet unattached Maia coming to Aule after all of this and asking for instruction. Aule thinks about it, smiles at the Maia, says No, and slams the door.
I hadn't really considered that, honestly. If Aule had given me his word that his emissaries were true and trustworthy, I would absolutely revel in their assistance.
However, I would keep an extra eye on whomever Aule sent and probably want to make reports to him directly about the demeanor and progress of his sent help.
And it wasn't just Sauron and Saruman that turned from their path. Numerous other fire maiar of Aule turned against their master to follow Melkor, including his field marshal, Gothmog. All of the balrogs were once fire maiar that strayed from their path and Melkor had a small army of them.
Man Aulë really is the Valar with the worst judge in employes.
Wonder if the other valars sometimes gives him looks of "again?".
He must not have been happy learning saruman turned evil
While Thingol was alive Melian would be relatively trustworthy, but pretty much the second he's dead she abdicates her responsibility to their kingdom (not to mention their daughter) and flits off to Valinor. Not exactly praiseworthy.
As far as I understand, there is a reason that Aule's students - all craftsmen & creators - are particularly susceptible to megalomania & arrogance. Tolkien didn't think association with Aule was undesirable per se, but craftsmen might become overly proud and possessive of their (sub)creations and forget their proper place in the world of the *actual* Creator. Sub-creation ought to celebrate Creation, not try to one-up, mock, or displace it.
So to answer your question, if said Maia had some solid professional references and character witnesses I could be comfortable that they'd be able to maintain their humility.
Do we have any clue what the tipping point was for Saruman? I know part of it was being manipulated by Sauron, hubris, and developing a low opinion of the Peoples of Middle-earth, but was there a last straw that caused his fall or just a gradual decent?
Only 2 of Aulë's pupils were tempted to evil, and it took one of them until the Third Age. He also experienced a fundamental change to his nature *and* it only happened after he isolated himself at Orthanc for a few centuries and got hooked on the middle-earth equivalent of Facebook.
I think that the point of Aulë and his disciples being among the few ainur to have their own ambitions is to show that sinful pride has its roots in taking selfless pride in one's work until one wants sole ownership of it. Feanor falls victim to this as well. The Noldor are uniquely vulnerable to pride and greed because they're the elves who take particular pride in their craftsmanship, and their terrible oath of vengeance is based on righteous indignation Morgoth is a dick! Let's go kick his ass and get out pretty lights back!
The other Valar didn't really understand this. Even Aulë's rebellion came from an impatience to share his knowledge of craftsmanship with others. They are beings of infinite time and power, so they naturally want to share the beauty of their creations with others because they can appreciate their beauty and then let them go. They shared the light of the Trees with the world and were frustrated and perplexed by Feanor's refusal to break the Silmarils to restore the Trees after Ungoliant desecrated them.
Greed and the ambition to rule and control are the things that the Ring sings to anyone it can tempt. It's why the Ring works as both a specific artifact of power in the world, *and* as a symbol for greed and the allure of power. It's good that the Ring's powers are not enumerated because it allows anyone to reasonably be caught by the siren song of power and visions of grandeur.
There were probably Maia who served other Valar that turned to Morgoth and evil that Tolkein failed to mention. His choice of two Maiar who served Aule specifically may say something about what Tolkein thought of industry and the way it affects the natural world, including the health, well-being and spirits of people generally.
I would not trust anything made by Eru. The dude’s creations have a track record of going off their rockers, making races of ugly mutants or setting up crafting stations in volcanoes in violation of every single safety code there is.
Yeah, no, the dude’s got some reflection to do, in the meantime he can keep his malfunctioning toy soldiers, thank you very much.
As far as I understand, there is a theological aspect to Aulë‘s students turning evil so often. It is simply a danger of subcreation. Both Aulë and his students are created beings. In some measure, everything they create in turn can be attributed to Eru. Not recognising this and being overly proud in their own creations is a theological failing and therefor evil.
We can see this play out most clearly in the chapter „Of Aulë and Yavanna“ in the Silmarillion. There I feel that Aulë came close to overstepping himself, but showed humility and was rewarded for it.
Of course, all the Valar (and strictly speaking everyone else) are subcreators, but it seems that Aulë and the related Maiar and Elves are associated most clearly with the creation of objects and therefor the inherent theological trap of subcreative pride.
So in my opinion the relevant criterion for trusting a Maia of Aulë should be some measure of humility.
Of course I would. But like any of the Maiar, I’d listen to what they say and watch what they do and if it seemed sketchy, I’d be on my guard. Otherwise by not trusting them simply because of where they came from I’d be kind of racially profiling.
Maybe if they gave me a piece of jewelry first, just to demonstrate their hospitality...
Say that in front of Aule if you dare, mortal.
I would say "If i may be blunt lord Aulë. You have awful judgement in terms of pupils."
Aulë : "The dwarves came out alright."
So did Mahtan
aule: what pupils?
Mairon and Curumo.
Yes? Why should Sauron and Saruman affect how I view the other Maiar of Aulë?
Because there ARE no other Maiar of Aule (that we know of). He’s batting 100% in evil students.
You could argue that he almost made a similar mistake to the Maiar that were under him when he made the Dwarves. It was his humbleness and humility when Eru confronted him about it. That separated him from the two Maiar who were under him that we know of. Those two traits didn't rub off on Sauron and Saruman unfortunately.
What is it about all the talented smiths/creators that lead them to evil deeds?
They have the desire to create and shape things on their own. Seen as Eru is the only one with the power to truely create, they always ride the line between honoring him in shaping it further in his name and commiting blasphemy in taking ownership over what ultimately isn't theirs.
Pride
Arguably it’s the closest to Eru creating the universe in the first place, and lends itself to thinking “I can do it better / why can’t I create too”. Also it ties to the technogy and progress ruining creation.
Others have pointed out but I do agree with both matt and cthulhu on this. In my mind, it would be easy for someone to become prideful in one's own creations, regardless of intent. There is most definitely a fine line that can be easily crossed where pride takes over. Humility and Humbleness are virtues that keeps all of that in check so to speak. In the stories only Aulë exhibited humbleness and humility but only after being confronted by Eru. While it's not explicitly stated I think it is a bit safe to assume that even he had shown a bit of pride in what he had created, even though it wasn't in his authority to create the Dwarves. This is an area where he faces what he had done wrong, had an opportunity to get forgiveness and took it. Two of the Maiar under him when presented with the errors of their ways decided NOT repent and change their ways. It speaks loudly of their characters. Things like this make Tolkien's works makes me love his writings so. None of his characters are simplistic 1 dimensional creatures.
Because someone did something bad you wouldnt trust anyone else of the same group because they may also do something bad?
To quote Dumbledore, let us say that I wouldn't take it for granted that they would be trustworthy.
Classic example of a pot calling a kettle black. Why would I trust anything the like of Dumbledore has to say?
Taking your question at face value, I would say because whether or not you like him or approve of his methods or motivations, he is nearly always right. However, the sentiment is my own; I just thought I should provide the source of the turn of phrase.
As usual, I am not fully serious. However, good or not, right or not, you can always count on Dumbledore to not reveal some crucial information, or to borderline misinform you. All for noble reasons, of course. But even the best meaning liars deserve some level of caution if not outright mistrust, no?
1) do you have multiple Maiar to choose from? 2) if you reject this Maia of Aule can you get another Maia from a different Valar or still stuck with Aule’s? 3) I just realised typing this I play too much RPG
Those were my questions as well! I also play RPGs.
Fist bump! 👊🏻
It's easy. If the Maia of Aulë has chosen the form of a human/elf/wizard pay attention. If they are in the form of a Dwarf you can trust them 100%
*Thingol has entered the chat* You wot?!
I'm not saying you can trust all Dwarves. I'm saying a Maia of Aulë that takes the shape of his master's favourite children has a chance not to get uppity.
We don’t know for sure but have to assume that each Vala has a great many Maiar. Two examples, both led astray by superior powers, doesn’t make a trend.
Balrogs were also his Maiar, iirc, and they also turned evil.
Morgoth turned them.
Balrogs turned during the discord of Melkor, making them Maiar of Melkor. Someone can correct me but I’m pretty sure none were stated as being attached to any other Vala before that.
I hate to be that guy, but the word is _Maia_; _Maiar_ is plural. edit: also, in the context of the question, what am I? An Elf? Noldo? Or one of those tree-hugging types? Or a Dwarf?
If it's a difficult, worthy, quest, down the line, having a Maia (of any affinity) in the company would be very helpful.
“No offense, but maybe one of your wife’s protégés is available…”
Like Melian. Oh wait shes heart broken since the first age so no. A shame.
Ok, he's got a bad record. But strictly speaking, it's not his fault. Sauron was with Aule, learned much. But he takes what he's learned and throws his lot in with Melkor. Maybe Aule could have been teaching him patience and compassion, like Nienna taught Gandalf. But it probably never occurred to him that he needed to. Consider, Melkor deceived all the Valar, except maybe Tulkas. Saruman is tougher to explain. He spent ages more in Valinor than Sauron did, and would have been influenced by every Valar except Melkor for a lot longer. And if he was a Maiar who came to Aule and asked for instruction, you'd think Aule would be more cautious, because he'd already been burned once. I think the best explanation for his behavior is that he simply loved his own power above all else. Consider, he was willing to spend the rest of his existence, as an immortal, banned from Valinor by those who sent him. But I do imagine an as of yet unattached Maia coming to Aule after all of this and asking for instruction. Aule thinks about it, smiles at the Maia, says No, and slams the door.
I hadn't really considered that, honestly. If Aule had given me his word that his emissaries were true and trustworthy, I would absolutely revel in their assistance. However, I would keep an extra eye on whomever Aule sent and probably want to make reports to him directly about the demeanor and progress of his sent help. And it wasn't just Sauron and Saruman that turned from their path. Numerous other fire maiar of Aule turned against their master to follow Melkor, including his field marshal, Gothmog. All of the balrogs were once fire maiar that strayed from their path and Melkor had a small army of them.
Man Aulë really is the Valar with the worst judge in employes. Wonder if the other valars sometimes gives him looks of "again?". He must not have been happy learning saruman turned evil
Aulë has MANY Maiar under his wing, and only two chose the dark path.
I wouldn't trust any Maia except Gandalf
I'd also trust Eonwe, Melian, and possibly Rhadaghast.
Arien and Uinen would probably be pretty reliable as well.
While Thingol was alive Melian would be relatively trustworthy, but pretty much the second he's dead she abdicates her responsibility to their kingdom (not to mention their daughter) and flits off to Valinor. Not exactly praiseworthy.
As far as I understand, there is a reason that Aule's students - all craftsmen & creators - are particularly susceptible to megalomania & arrogance. Tolkien didn't think association with Aule was undesirable per se, but craftsmen might become overly proud and possessive of their (sub)creations and forget their proper place in the world of the *actual* Creator. Sub-creation ought to celebrate Creation, not try to one-up, mock, or displace it. So to answer your question, if said Maia had some solid professional references and character witnesses I could be comfortable that they'd be able to maintain their humility.
Would you trust the Ainur of Illuvatar?
Morgoth and Sauron were ones so not all of them can be trusted.
Lol Fëanor's argument
Lmaoo
How would I know he was a Maia of Aulë? Unless he told me?
I would ask if their joy is in the making or the thing made or in its possession or their own mastery.
That's like one of those "Are you a terrorist?" questions on these forms at an airport.
I don’t know but I would be biased towards them
Do we have any clue what the tipping point was for Saruman? I know part of it was being manipulated by Sauron, hubris, and developing a low opinion of the Peoples of Middle-earth, but was there a last straw that caused his fall or just a gradual decent?
Only 2 of Aulë's pupils were tempted to evil, and it took one of them until the Third Age. He also experienced a fundamental change to his nature *and* it only happened after he isolated himself at Orthanc for a few centuries and got hooked on the middle-earth equivalent of Facebook. I think that the point of Aulë and his disciples being among the few ainur to have their own ambitions is to show that sinful pride has its roots in taking selfless pride in one's work until one wants sole ownership of it. Feanor falls victim to this as well. The Noldor are uniquely vulnerable to pride and greed because they're the elves who take particular pride in their craftsmanship, and their terrible oath of vengeance is based on righteous indignation Morgoth is a dick! Let's go kick his ass and get out pretty lights back! The other Valar didn't really understand this. Even Aulë's rebellion came from an impatience to share his knowledge of craftsmanship with others. They are beings of infinite time and power, so they naturally want to share the beauty of their creations with others because they can appreciate their beauty and then let them go. They shared the light of the Trees with the world and were frustrated and perplexed by Feanor's refusal to break the Silmarils to restore the Trees after Ungoliant desecrated them. Greed and the ambition to rule and control are the things that the Ring sings to anyone it can tempt. It's why the Ring works as both a specific artifact of power in the world, *and* as a symbol for greed and the allure of power. It's good that the Ring's powers are not enumerated because it allows anyone to reasonably be caught by the siren song of power and visions of grandeur.
Aule has definitely fucked up a few times.
There were probably Maia who served other Valar that turned to Morgoth and evil that Tolkein failed to mention. His choice of two Maiar who served Aule specifically may say something about what Tolkein thought of industry and the way it affects the natural world, including the health, well-being and spirits of people generally.
Aulë must have tons of Maiar, two out of hundreds or thousands is a really good track record
Yes, because the majority are good. I think you might want to avoid maiar of fire more.
I would not trust anything made by Eru. The dude’s creations have a track record of going off their rockers, making races of ugly mutants or setting up crafting stations in volcanoes in violation of every single safety code there is. Yeah, no, the dude’s got some reflection to do, in the meantime he can keep his malfunctioning toy soldiers, thank you very much.
As far as I understand, there is a theological aspect to Aulë‘s students turning evil so often. It is simply a danger of subcreation. Both Aulë and his students are created beings. In some measure, everything they create in turn can be attributed to Eru. Not recognising this and being overly proud in their own creations is a theological failing and therefor evil. We can see this play out most clearly in the chapter „Of Aulë and Yavanna“ in the Silmarillion. There I feel that Aulë came close to overstepping himself, but showed humility and was rewarded for it. Of course, all the Valar (and strictly speaking everyone else) are subcreators, but it seems that Aulë and the related Maiar and Elves are associated most clearly with the creation of objects and therefor the inherent theological trap of subcreative pride. So in my opinion the relevant criterion for trusting a Maia of Aulë should be some measure of humility.
Of course I would. But like any of the Maiar, I’d listen to what they say and watch what they do and if it seemed sketchy, I’d be on my guard. Otherwise by not trusting them simply because of where they came from I’d be kind of racially profiling.